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Glen
June 23rd, 2007, 08:15 PM
Ah, will we never get this timeline straightened out?

1496:

China:

Of the 700 bureaucrats who lost their jobs in the imperial bureaucracy a year before, 200 made their way to port cities and began to set themselves up as business owners, mainly sea trade and the buying of commodities making their way into the cities via the inland river routes. Thanks to their intimate knowledge of the bureaucratic system of business taxation, many of the former bureaucrats turned businessmen were able to hide a large portion of their yearly revenue from the tax collectors.

The tax reforms imposed the year before by the Hongzhi Emperor were beginning to take shape. Land taxes on the middle class were lowered 15%, while taxation of the upper crust gentry was increased 20% to balance out the revenue imbalance, and bring in extra revenue for the imperial government. Along with that, a more uniform system of business taxation was imposed, taxing the yearly revenue of the businesses that was liquid capital, while failing to mention the static capital (commodities) gained during the year.

This is the first post that starts our problems. As of the year this is written, shipbuilding is illegal, merchants are looked down upon, pirates are about the only Chinese going to sea.

From wikipedia:

"By the end of the 15th century, Imperial subjects were forbidden to build oceangoing ships or leave the country. Some historians speculate that this measure was taken in response to piracy. But during the mid-1500s, trade started again...."

Bureaucrats kicked out and turning merchant would be a serious mark of shame under these circumstances.

So, what to do, what to do, what to do....

By the mid 1500s, trade would have started up again in China, but poorly. Maybe remove these early events but start planting small ones so when the time comes for the Chinese Dragon to reemerge, it will be plausible.

Psychomeltdown
June 23rd, 2007, 08:25 PM
Yeah, I've been thinking that also.

You can't have bureaucrats who are pretty much living the dream, suddenly go Merchant men.

If they were corrupt and they had money, they would not be using it to buy up grain and timber, they would most likely be using it to find a way back into the Bureaucracy or gathering like minded people to oppose the new direction of China.

It's like saying a high powered CEO being kicked out for stealing and suddenly turning into a prostitute , even if it's a very lucrative form of prostitution it's a looked down upon occupation, especially in the eyes of their former equals.

Glen
June 23rd, 2007, 10:55 PM
Okay, don't know how he should do this, but this is what GP needs to do.

Delay the 'Bureaurocrats cum Businessmen' storyline.

You need to start on day one of the timeline slowly eroding the power of the Confucian Scholars. Not certain how you go about doing this, but that's how you need to go.

Next, I suggest you use an old strategy, divide and conquer, to deal with the remaining 'pirate' problem. The Emperor offers amnesty to the least offensive of the Chinese pirates in return for them turning against their fellow pirates. This will be the beginnings of the Chinese navy. WARNING: Don't rush it!

Baby steps, in part to coopt the Chinese pirate faction(s) you choose, get at least a partial rescension of the ban against Chinese going to sea and shipwork. The rationale is that you need to do this temporarily to coopt the pirates to destroy the others.

Hopefully, by the time the Court coopted pirates finish off the scummiest of the Pirates, the Confucian Scholars will be knocked down enough pegs to allow their retention as some sort of sea force, and allow you to continue to develop upon it.

You'll then also need to work on the legitimization (again, slowly, slowly) of merchants within China.

Glen
June 24th, 2007, 02:58 AM
Next huge problem is this entry. It will impact on the Ryuku events if changed dramatically.

Should we consider having this section be replaced with the first reference to the Chinese coopting some of the pirates to fight the others?

April 1498:The Hongzhi Emperor signed into effect an imperial declaration which legitimized businesses and business ownership (The Imperial Business and Venture Compact Declaration of 1498). Businesses were to be granted "Imperial Business Compacts," agreements between the business and the imperial government to have the private business disclose all liquid and static assets for tax purposes, and in return the businesses would no longer have to pay off local imperial bureaucrats or fear the closure of their businesses by enraged local officials, they would have the full protection and support of the imperial government in Beijing as long as they fulfilled their end of the bargain.

In the wake of the successful sailing and news of the successes of the imperial trading fleets in making port in several ports in South-East Asia, the Indian sub-continent, and the Middle East, several private business owners at the heads of successful commercial shipping businesses began to dispatch trading fleets of their own, laden with grain, porcelain, silver, gold, and other trading goods to ports along the Indian Ocean. These fleets do not sail unarmed with many vessels within the fleet carrying weaponry to defend themselves from any pirates or hostile power that may threaten the safety and security of the private business ventures.

The emperor, upon hearing news of the restless natives of Formosa (Taiwan), sent his regards to the Ryukyuans and expressed great sorrow at their loss. He also heard their request to bring the restless natives to justice, and agreed that restless natives on Formosa would, perhaps, mean bad business for business owners who were beginning to apply for Imperial Business Compacts.

The emperor agreed to the Ryukyuan request, and declared that he would dispatch several ships laden with men and supplies in two years time, 1500, to bring the restless natives to justice who had so violently wronged his honorable neighbors in Ryuku. The two years gave him a cushion to prepare for conflict, something that he had not had to deal with for quite some time, as well as preparing the army for a period of perhaps extended conflict.

KineticBots
June 26th, 2007, 02:59 AM
If there is a significant change made here could someone send me a PM please? I'll need to know ASAP so I can sort it out and rework things as needed for Ryukyu (and possibly Japan).

Thanks,
KineticBots