1493 - France

[Keenir]

DIVERGENCE: Charles VIII l'Affable {the Affable} of the House of Valois, does not give in to the tempting suggestions of Sforza, and rather than commense with a fairly immediate* invasion of Italy, he engages in filling the hands of every member of his army with weapons superior to what their soldier-counterparts in Italy would have. Carpenters and bowmen enjoy a surge of royal favor now that their works are exceedingly in high demand.

He never entered Italy, as England and Austria both refused to enter contract to free up Charles' army to use against Naples. As a result, no Italian Wars, and French humanists remain separate from the Italian humanists.

1495 - Them both stricken with measles in France, the infant Charles Orland {Orlandus Carolus} and one of his godfathers Louis XII Valois-Orléans are advised by the court astrologer to pray their strongest to God at a particular hour of the nights.

The two of them pull through, and Louis begins a lifelong interest in astrology. Charles VIII and Queen Anne order celebrations throughout all of France to mark the occasion; most desmenes use Saint Days and Feast Days for marking the event in their calendars.

1497 - April - Charles VIII of France dies. Queen Anne, pregnant, enters royal seclusion as Louis XII takes the throne.

September - Queen Anne wife of Charles VIII the former King of France dies two days after delivering a healthy daughter who has been named Princess Anne.

1498 - Louis XII of France sends entertainers to the Sforza court, a gift to celebrate the Duke's birthday. Of course, Louis makes sure that the entertainers exit France on a fortuitous day. Part of the accompanying gift is an ornately-drawn astrological map, depicting-demonstrating what a good star the Duke was born under.

Summer - Louis sends tokens of his friendship and goodwill to the three members of the Alpine Pact.

December - The King of France contemplates whether it would be in his interest to invade Naples in the upcoming year. So deep in thought is he over this matter for weeks, that he ignores the advice of his court astrologers...

1499 - January - News arrives from Rome: the Pope was considering not granting the annulment of Louis' marriage to Jeanne so Louis could marry Anne de Bretagne (widow of childless Louis XI)

March - Louis, searching for anything which might assist his case in the annulment, learns from one of his astrologers that the Pope's present horoscope suggests that the Pope is involved in a plot, a conspiracy against his Majesty the King of France. Louis considers what the Pope's interest is in France, aside from a spiritual one...and can only conclude that the annulment is the conspiracy.

Late March - Louis XII of France casts aside Anne de Bretagne, and renews his vows with his wife and queen Jeanne. Suspicious as she is, Jeanne gladly accepts the restoration of her power and authority as Queen of France.

Anne de Bretagne gladly withdraws to a convent to live out the remainder of her days.

1501 - King Louis XII of France warns King Alphonse of Naples not to invade the Papacy, lest Naples feel the full force of the French military.


* = in OTL, according to the Wiki, it was a mere three or four years - 1491 and 1495.

[Tom Veil]

would Burgundy please PM me? I'm interested in ideas why a France (not ruined by the Italian Wars) would leave alone an expansionist Burgundy.

thoughts?
Just ideas, choose several or choose none as you see fit.

Louis XII could prove to be incompetent at foreign affairs or be an isolationist (which in this case amounts to the same thing)
A domestic affair could cause a serious distraction
France could launch some expensive project (exploration, infrastructure, culture, etc) and not be able to afford to maintain a credible military (remember, no deficit spending back then)
France could suffer a civil war -- there are lots of statelets that are not very well integrated yet, from Provence to Breton -- and Burgundy becomes the least of its problems
France and Burgundy could reach an alliance, or if that's too much of a stretch, an accomodation.

[The Sicilian]

DIVERGENCE: Charles VIII l'Affable {the Affable} of the House of Valois, does not give in to the tempting suggestions of Sforza, and rather than commense with a fairly immediate* invasion of Italy, he engages in filling the hands of every member of his army with weapons superior to what their soldier-counterparts in Italy would have. Carpenters and bowmen enjoy a surge of royal favor now that their works are exceedingly in high demand.

What 'tempting suggestions of Sforza' (which one by the way?)? If you don't remeber (and I don't blame you, as it was very early in the timeline) the tensions between Naples and Milan were diffused (I killed of that snake Ludovico, whom asked for France to Invade), thus the Italian wars are diverted.

Speaking of weak Italian armies, that is something I should get on.

[Keenir]

What 'tempting suggestions of Sforza' (which one by the way?)? If you don't remeber (and I don't blame you, as it was very early in the timeline) the tensions between Naples and Milan were diffused (I killed of that snake Ludovico, whom asked for France to Invade),

hm, good thing I had him ignore the request...otherwise he might clothe himself as the avenger of the murdered Sforza.
(yes, I know, assassinations were common...but when you hand somebody the perfect justification...)

thus the Italian wars are diverted.

in wiki:

Having inherited a vague claim to the kingdom of Naples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Naples) through his paternal grandmother, Marie of Anjou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_of_Anjou), and encouraged by Ludovico Sforza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovico_Sforza), Duke of Milan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Milan), he imagined himself capable of seizing that realm, and he thereupon set France's resources toward that goal, starting the Italian Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Wars). He contracted several unfavourable treaties with Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria) and England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England), in order to free himself of distractions, and then commenced a massive buildup of forces. He entered Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) in 1494 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1494) and marched across the peninsula, reaching Naples on February 22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_22), 1495 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1495).

[Keenir]

Just ideas, choose several or choose none as you see fit.

A domestic affair could cause a serious distractionwell, he does have that case against Jeanne.



France could launch some expensive project (exploration, infrastructure, culture, etc) and not be able to afford to maintain a credible military (remember, no deficit spending back then)
France and Burgundy could reach an alliance, or if that's too much of a stretch, an accomodation.

or, as he falls more and more under the sway of astrology, he's convinced that the present lord of Burgundy is auspicious to be friendly to. (of course, teh same might not hold for that lord's successor, but oh well)

or all three ideas in concert.

[The Sicilian]

hm, good thing I had him ignore the request...otherwise he might clothe himself as the avenger of the murdered Sforza.
(yes, I know, assassinations were common...but when you hand somebody the perfect justification...)
I'm a bit confused here (not something new:rolleyes:). What request? What Sforza?

BTW Ludovico wasn't assassinated. He was caught masterminding an attept on Duke Gian Galeazzo Sforza, and he was execuated. And the death of tratorous scum is hardly justification for war.

in wiki:

Having inherited a vague claim to the kingdom of Naples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Naples) through his paternal grandmother, Marie of Anjou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_of_Anjou), and encouraged by Ludovico Sforza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovico_Sforza), Duke of Milan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Milan), he imagined himself capable of seizing that realm, and he thereupon set France's resources toward that goal, starting the Italian Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Wars). He contracted several unfavourable treaties with Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria) and England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England), in order to free himself of distractions, and then commenced a massive buildup of forces. He entered Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) in 1494 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1494) and marched across the peninsula, reaching Naples on February 22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_22), 1495 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1495).
Right, that's OTL. Here: No Ludovico, no encouragemnet, no Italian wars.

[Keenir]

I'm a bit confused here (not something new:rolleyes:). What request? What Sforza?

BTW Ludovico wasn't assassinated. He was caught masterminding an attept on Duke Gian Galeazzo Sforza, and he was execuated.

sorry...my mind lumped execution and assassination together in this instance.

And the death of tratorous scum is hardly justification for war.

while there's always upperclasses in the Sforza's realm who would disagree, I'll not press any issue.

[The Sicilian]

while there's always upperclasses in the Sforza's realm who would disagree, I'll not press any issue.
The Sforza realm, which I control :D

[Keenir]

The Sforza realm, which I control :D

I'm just telling you what it says in several history books I found at the bookstore in the non-fiction section.

[Glen]

DIVERGENCE: Charles VIII l'Affable {the Affable} of the House of Valois, does not give in to the tempting suggestions of Sforza, and rather than commense with a fairly immediate* invasion of Italy, he engages in filling the hands of every member of his army with weapons superior to what their soldier-counterparts in Italy would have. Carpenters and bowmen enjoy a surge of royal favor now that their works are exceedingly in high demand.

Without a war, you're not going to do a massive build-up. Ludovico led Charles into war. We've taken care of that for you.


He never entered Italy, as England and Austria both refused to enter contract to free up Charles' army to use against Naples.

Need to know the precise timing of those treaties. They may have been entered into before Szorza was caught.

As a result, no Italian Wars, and French humanists remain separate from the Italian humanists.

True and true.


1495 - Them both stricken with measles in France, the infant Charles Orland {Orlandus Carolus} and one of his godfathers Louis XII Valois-Orléans are advised by the court astrologer to pray their strongest to God at a particular hour of the nights.

The two of them pull through, and Louis begins a lifelong interest in astrology.

So you're giving Louis Valois-Orleans measles and then saving him? Okay.

More importantly, you are saving Charles Orland, Dauphin of France. Actually, this one act in and of itself may explain France being quiet for most of the early decades here. I will explain later....

Charles VIII and Queen Anne order celebrations throughout all of France to mark the occasion; most desmenes use Saint Days and Feast Days for marking the event in their calendars.

Sure, they were nuts for the child.

1497 - April - Charles VIII of France dies.[/QUOTE]

You have him die the same month but a different year? Interesting. And what is Charles VIIIth dying from? IOTL he's said to have hit his head on a doorway, fell into a coma, and died thereafter....actually a rather suspicious story. Makes one wonder if he didn't have an unrecognized aneurysm or something. Still, a vague fever is always a good way to go.

Or you could let Charles VIIIth live. He was born in 1470, and thus is only 27 in 1497. He was considered incompetent enough that he easily could have bungled his way through the first few decades of the 1500s without making much difference in international events.

Queen Anne, pregnant, enters royal seclusion as Louis XII takes the throne.

Wrong. You saved Charles Orland in your previous event. IF you decide to still kill off Charles VIIIth in the late 1490s, then a regency will have to be established in Charles' name. And I guarantee you that Queen Anne will be one of those who fight hardest for her child's reign. She might have hated most of the Valois, including her husband, but by all reports the one thing she and her husband agreed upon was their love of Charles Orland.

September - Queen Anne wife of Charles VIII the former King of France dies two days after delivering a healthy daughter who has been named Princess Anne.

Okay....


1498 - Louis XII of France sends entertainers to the Sforza court, a gift to celebrate the Duke's birthday. Of course, Louis makes sure that the entertainers exit France on a fortuitous day. Part of the accompanying gift is an ornately-drawn astrological map, depicting-demonstrating what a good star the Duke was born under.

Louis can be a regent at most, at worst a murderer if he takes out Charles Orland. Or he might plunge France into Civil War in the process of attempting to usurp the throne if he does not capture or kill Charles Orland. That's ANOTHER way to keep France out of the picture; a Civil War with Louis on one side and the Dauphin's loyalists on the other.

Summer - Louis sends tokens of his friendship and goodwill to the three members of the Alpine Pact.

December - The King of France contemplates whether it would be in his interest to invade Naples in the upcoming year. So deep in thought is he over this matter for weeks, that he ignores the advice of his court astrologers...

Without the Alpine Pact backing him, he wouldn't get very far, but you're welcome to try it.


1499 - January - News arrives from Rome: the Pope was considering not granting the annulment of Louis' marriage to Jeanne so Louis could marry Anne de Bretagne (widow of childless Louis XI)

March - Louis, searching for anything which might assist his case in the annulment, learns from one of his astrologers that the Pope's present horoscope suggests that the Pope is involved in a plot, a conspiracy against his Majesty the King of France. Louis considers what the Pope's interest is in France, aside from a spiritual one...and can only conclude that the annulment is the conspiracy.

Late March - Louis XII of France casts aside Anne de Bretagne, and renews his vows with his wife and queen Jeanne. Suspicious as she is, Jeanne gladly accepts the restoration of her power and authority as Queen of France.

Anne de Bretagne gladly withdraws to a convent to live out the remainder of her days.

1501 - King Louis XII of France warns King Alphonse of Naples not to invade the Papacy, lest Naples feel the full force of the French military.


* = in OTL, according to the Wiki, it was a mere three or four years - 1491 and 1495.


Of course, this still suffers from the problem that Louis XII can not be king while Charles Orland lives.

And that you said that Queen Anne died in childbirth. Anne of Brittany and Queen Anne are the same person. She was never married to Louis XI, she was married to Charles VIII.

IF you try to shut up Anne of Brittany, you will be unsuccessful.

Bottom line....all of these entries are messed up. You need a better reference on the royal family. Ask Aussey about all this, he can probably recite all the relations by heart. I'd also suggest ditching the whole astrology subplot, seems nutty without much value added.

You have, however, given several ideas as to how you can realistically sideline France.

1) Stick with saving Charles Orland's life and killing off Charles VIIIth early. He was born in October 1492. He won't even be 20 until 1512. Have a regency headed in part by Queen Anne of Brittany (don't kill her off). The French will likely stick with internal matters, given that for the next two decades the King of France is a child. BTW, Charles Orland was considered a handsome, brave, and intelligent child. A hint of the makings of a very great king in a few decades.

2) Save Charles VIIIth (with or without Orland living) and let him live and rule to a reasonable age for Medieval times. This will give you a few more decades of rather incompetant rule by Charles VIIIth, with either nothing international or just one blunder after another.

3) Stick with saving Charles Orland, killing Charles VIIIth, don't kill off Queen Anne of Brittany, but have Louis Valois-Orleans decide to make a play for the throne, plunging France into a decades long Civil War that keeps them out of international affairs for a few decades.

[Keenir]

March - Louis, searching for anything which might assist his case in the annulment, learns from one of his astrologers that the Pope's present horoscope suggests that the Pope is involved in a plot, a conspiracy against his Majesty the King of France. Louis considers what the Pope's interest is in France, aside from a spiritual one...and can only conclude that the annulment is the conspiracy.

Late March - Louis XII of France casts aside Anne de Bretagne, and renews his vows with his wife and queen Jeanne. Suspicious as she is, Jeanne gladly accepts the restoration of her power and authority as Queen of France.

Anne de Bretagne gladly withdraws to a convent to live out the remainder of her days.

1501 - King Louis XII of France warns King Alphonse of Naples not to invade the Papacy, lest Naples feel the full force of the French military.

1502 - France's king Louis XII has a series of bad dreams, leading him to fear a revival of the dreaded Cathars. It is also the point in time when King Louis XII begins sending weapons to assist the Anti-Burgundians against Burgundy. He continues this until a year after the truce (1508) between Burgundy and the Anti-Burgundians (just in case, he reasons).

1502-1505 - For France, this is a period of heightened paranoia and pandering to spiritualists and soothsayers, particularly in the vicinity of the King. It also sees an increase in the size of the French army.

Also during this period, the French begin a tradition of imprisoning any Englishmen whose ships wash up on the French shore. Cannons and archers are stationed at various points along the western and northern French coast.

France, however, remains on good terms with the Swiss, Spanish, and the Alpine Pact. Relations with the Ottomans sour.

1505 - Inspired by his Catholic neighbors to the south, Louis XII of France creates an order of inquisitors to root out heresy in his kingdom. The good side of this is that it's the end of the paranoia on the King's part.

November 1505 - Queen Jeanne of France gives birth to twins, a son and a daughter.* King Louis XII sees this as God's approval of his actions.

early 1507 - Louis XII of France instructs his carpenters to ensure the stability of French docks and ports.

1508 onwards - Feeling that the his Holiness the Pope has not done enough - or anything at all - to fight the latest new insideous heresy, King Louis XII of France tasks his inquisitors to pay special attention for wherever Wettinists might pop up in the Kingdom of France.

1513 - French King Louis XII recognizes Charles of Gueldres as the king of Oversticht.

1513-1517 - Louis XII quietly backs the Alliance against Burgundy, while keeping his own army on his home turf.

1517 - With as much as he dislikes Alphonso of Naples, Louis XII of France considers remaining neutral in Naples' conflict with Portugal. In Louis' eyes, both Portugal and Naples have sullied themselves by too much dalliance with the infidels. (Alphonso in Naples and Jerusalem, Manuel in India and Africa). Spain, Louis feels, is far better than either of them.

Louis XII sends a messenger to the Alpine Pact, asking if they - and their armies - would care to assist him - and his army - in rescuing the Pope from the vile clutches of both Naples and Portugal and the Ottomans. "Il Papa must be kept safe," he says in his message to the Pact.

OOC: And at this point, I hand France over to Aussey, who asked nicely, and has plans for France.
(I don't mind - I was running France just so there'd be a balance of power in the west of Europe)

* = Aussey, I'm letting you name the kids. have fun.

references: http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1111730&postcount=100
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussites http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians

[Glen]

So, did Louis XII suffer post measles encephalitis? Because he's acting so far out of historical character, that's the only thing I can think of to explain it.

He's friggin' nuts!:eek:

Supporting Burgundy's enemies, okay.

Your continued build up of the military without reason or new income is insane. You'll have peasant revolts shortly.

I would either move to the 1510s or remove entirely your actions against Englishmen. Otherwise we'd have to retcon in a major war between France and England. And btw, we still have Calais yet you don't mention it in Louis' mad insults against England.

I'm sorry, if you just intend to hand this over to Aussey, why are you doing all this stuff first? I really just don't understand what you are trying to achieve in these few decades.

1502 - France's king Louis XII has a series of bad dreams, leading him to fear a revival of the dreaded Cathars. It is also the point in time when King Louis XII begins sending weapons to assist the Anti-Burgundians against Burgundy. He continues this until a year after the truce (1508) between Burgundy and the Anti-Burgundians (just in case, he reasons).

1502-1505 - For France, this is a period of heightened paranoia and pandering to spiritualists and soothsayers, particularly in the vicinity of the King. It also sees an increase in the size of the French army.

Also during this period, the French begin a tradition of imprisoning any Englishmen whose ships wash up on the French shore. Cannons and archers are stationed at various points along the western and northern French coast.

France, however, remains on good terms with the Swiss, Spanish, and the Alpine Pact. Relations with the Ottomans sour.

1505 - Inspired by his Catholic neighbors to the south, Louis XII of France creates an order of inquisitors to root out heresy in his kingdom. The good side of this is that it's the end of the paranoia on the King's part.

November 1505 - Queen Jeanne of France gives birth to twins, a son and a daughter.* King Louis XII sees this as God's approval of his actions.

early 1507 - Louis XII of France instructs his carpenters to ensure the stability of French docks and ports.

1508 onwards - Feeling that the his Holiness the Pope has not done enough - or anything at all - to fight the latest new insideous heresy, King Louis XII of France tasks his inquisitors to pay special attention for wherever Wettinists might pop up in the Kingdom of France.

1513 - French King Louis XII recognizes Charles of Gueldres as the king of Oversticht.

1513-1517 - Louis XII quietly backs the Alliance against Burgundy, while keeping his own army on his home turf.

1517 - With as much as he dislikes Alphonso of Naples, Louis XII of France considers remaining neutral in Naples' conflict with Portugal. In Louis' eyes, both Portugal and Naples have sullied themselves by too much dalliance with the infidels. (Alphonso in Naples and Jerusalem, Manuel in India and Africa). Spain, Louis feels, is far better than either of them.

Louis XII sends a messenger to the Alpine Pact, asking if they - and their armies - would care to assist him - and his army - in rescuing the Pope from the vile clutches of both Naples and Portugal and the Ottomans. "Il Papa must be kept safe," he says in his message to the Pact.

OOC: And at this point, I hand France over to Aussey, who asked nicely, and has plans for France.
(I don't mind - I was running France just so there'd be a balance of power in the west of Europe)

* = Aussey, I'm letting you name the kids. have fun.

references: http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1111730&postcount=100
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussites http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians

[Aussey]

Bottom line....all of these entries are messed up. You need a better reference on the royal family. Ask Aussey about all this, he can probably recite all the relations by heart. I'd also suggest ditching the whole astrology subplot, seems nutty without much value added.

You have, however, given several ideas as to how you can realistically sideline France.

1) Stick with saving Charles Orland's life and killing off Charles VIIIth early. He was born in October 1492. He won't even be 20 until 1512. Have a regency headed in part by Queen Anne of Brittany (don't kill her off). The French will likely stick with internal matters, given that for the next two decades the King of France is a child. BTW, Charles Orland was considered a handsome, brave, and intelligent child. A hint of the makings of a very great king in a few decades.

2) Save Charles VIIIth (with or without Orland living) and let him live and rule to a reasonable age for Medieval times. This will give you a few more decades of rather incompetant rule by Charles VIIIth, with either nothing international or just one blunder after another.

3) Stick with saving Charles Orland, killing Charles VIIIth, don't kill off Queen Anne of Brittany, but have Louis Valois-Orleans decide to make a play for the throne, plunging France into a decades long Civil War that keeps them out of international affairs for a few decades.

I'd have to agree with Glen. You're altering WAY more than just French history by having these children. I suggest we have the same monarchs as OTL. Have the daughter of Louis XII and Anne of Brittany-Queen Anne, Princess Claude, marry her cousin the Count of Angouleme. This was VERY important to the survival of the Valois.

Possibly have Louis XII reign longer into the 1520's, as he was very loved by the French, and did great in his life. Have him surrender the claim as "King of Naples," in return for an alliance against the HRE and recognition as Duke of Milan- these were the two MOST IMPORTANT desires of the Valois Administration during this period.

Then, I suggest, have Francois I (married to Princess Claude, daughter of Louis XII) ascend the throne in, 1525. That gives Louis XII a longer life span, and gives Francois I more time to prepare for what HE truly loved- which were New World expeditions. In OTL he had to worry about allying against the Empire. If you have Louis XII secure an alliance with Spain and Naples (again, in return for the Duchy of Milan,) you can have a France in AMAZING condition. A large enough military; Great treasury; secured alliances; and New World settlements.

:)

[AJNolte]

Another problem:
1. Wettinism doesn't emerge until 1519, or maybe 17.
2. It hasn't actually been declared a heresy: still working on the council for that.
3. It's completely unlike catharism.

[Keenir]

I surrender France. do with it as you like.

[Aussey]

Here. How does this sound?
----------------------------

1493-1498: Recomended against doing so, King Charles VIII does not attempt to assert his vague claim to the throne of Naples. As such, he spends his final years attempting to legalize a bastard son of his. It fails, and since all of his children died before him, upon his death the throne passed to a cousin, the son of Charles, duc d'Orleans, who reigned as King Louis XII of France.

1498-1520: The Reign of Louis XII is characterized mainly by the langing of French ships in the New World (OTL Georgia/Florida) after hearing of Columbus's Indies, in 1509. A settlement was established, and named "Port Claudeville," (OTL Port Caroline,) in honor of the king's eldest daughter. It is discovered not to be India or the Indies, but a new world. It is named "Louisiana," in honor of the King. In Europe, King Louis XII successfully got a divorce from the Queen Jeanne, and married the dowager queen Anne, Duchess of Brittany. They eventually had two daughters that lived- the Princesses Claude and Renee. Always prepared for an invasion by the Empire, or in case things got nasty in Italy, Louis XII expanded his army to become a formidable force. In 1515, Louis XII sent more explorers to "Louisiana." Louis XII is known as the "Father of the People," lovingly by the French for his works in bringing peace to France and the French people, and his legacy lives on in the naming of "Louisiana." He also cooperated with the Spanish in securing the independence of the Pyreneeial kingdom of Navarre as a buffer state between the two newly-unified nations of France and Spain.

Always a devout Catholic, Louis XII denounced the Portugese in their spit of the Pope, and actually supported the Spaniards and Neapolitans in their African difficulties. He remained neutral, militarily, but was known to support the Spanish and Italians.

[[@ Messiniano- tell me if you like this part -->]] In return for an alliance to help them against the Portugese, who were quickly discovering vast lands, the Louis XII recognized the king of Naples as "King of Naples," and denounced his claims to the throne. He continued to claim, titularly that is, to be "Duke of Milan," and when Francois I was crowned king in 1521, he too was crowned "(titular) Duke of Milan."

1521: Having lived a long and prosperous life, Louis XII died of (cliche, I know,) old-age, and was succeded by his son-in-law through his daughter's inheritance, Count of Angouleme, Francis I, husband of Princess Claude.

[Glen]

Here. How does this sound?
----------------------------

1493-1498: Recomended against doing so, King Charles VIII does not attempt to assert his vague claim to the throne of Naples. As such, he spends his final years attempting to legalize a bastard son of his. It fails, and since all of his children died before him, upon his death the throne passed to a cousin, the son of Charles, duc d'Orleans, who reigned as King Louis XII of France.

Is this above part all OTL?


1498-1520: The Reign of Louis XII is characterized mainly by the langing of French ships in the New World (OTL Georgia/Florida) after hearing of Columbus's Indies, in 1509.

First, I suggest you don't post this as a single event post. Break it down into more salient points.

Second, you should rewrite it to not reference Columbus' Indies, but the Cabots' Norasia. The Columbus voyage (yes, singular, didn't go back to the West Indies until after 1500) was eclipsed by the voyages of John and then Sebastian Cabot from mid 1490s to mid 1500s. By 1509 this would be the reference.

A settlement was established, and named "Port Claudeville," (OTL Port Caroline,) in honor of the king's eldest daughter. It is discovered not to be India or the Indies, but a new world.

Where is Port Caroline OTL? Can't seem to find it by Googling.

Also, the Cabots have already pretty well established that the New World is NOT the Indies or India by this point in time, so you'd need to remove that reference.

Why are you setting up a settlement there? First, I'd think a trading outpost more sensible, and second, what are you looking to trade there?

It is named "Louisiana," in honor of the King.

What's named Louisiana? Not North America at this point.

In Europe, King Louis XII successfully got a divorce from the Queen Jeanne,

It would have to be an annulment, not a divorce. You have to check with the Pope. Are you having this happen more or less when it did OTL?

and married the dowager queen Anne, Duchess of Brittany. They eventually had two daughters that lived- the Princesses Claude and Renee.

You do realize this many years out from the initial POD, these are not the Claude and Renee of OTL but alternate sisters to them, correct?

Always prepared for an invasion by the Empire, or in case things got nasty in Italy, Louis XII expanded his army to become a formidable force.

Possible, but what are you using for money at this point? How much of a 'expansion' are you talking here?

In 1515, Louis XII sent more explorers to "Louisiana."

One, you need to drop Louisiana at this point. Two, you need to specify where your explorers are likely to go.

Louis XII is known as the "Father of the People," lovingly by the French for his works in bringing peace to France and the French people,

This is close to historical, so fine here.

and his legacy lives on in the naming of "Louisiana." What, that little colony around OTL Georgia?

He also cooperated with the Spanish in securing the independence of the Pyreneeial kingdom of Navarre as a buffer state between the two newly-unified nations of France and Spain.

Navarre is a spot, hardly makes a good buffer given the length of the borders. I would remove overt reference to this, and just have the Navarrese play the two sides off against each other.


Always a devout Catholic, Louis XII denounced the Portugese in their spite of the Pope, and actually supported the Spaniards and Neapolitans in their African difficulties. He remained neutral, militarily, but was known to support the Spanish and Italians.

Given how that is going, this seems a bit reasonable.


[[@ Messiniano- tell me if you like this part -->]] In return for an alliance to help them against the Portugese, who were quickly discovering vast lands, the Louis XII recognized the king of Naples as "King of Naples," and denounced his claims to the throne. He continued to claim, titularly that is, to be "Duke of Milan," and when Francois I was crowned king in 1521, he too was crowned "(titular) Duke of Milan."

Messiniano will have to check that one. It is plausible, though.


1521: Having lived a long and prosperous life, Louis XII died of (cliche, I know,) old-age, and was succeded by his son-in-law through his daughter's inheritance, Count of Angouleme, Francis I, husband of Princess Claude.

So you have Louis XII live longer and send an expedition to the New World, but otherwise not a lot of change from OTL.

I suppose you could go this way. Personally, I liked keeping Charles Orland alive. Having him as King would have given you a lot of latitude as you would not have to be dealing with an OTL personality since he only lived a couple years OTL.

How does the lack of French and Italian humanist mixing effect Francis I?

[Keenir]

Here. How does this sound?

overall, it sounds quite good.

I only have a few tiny questions.

1493-1498: Recomended against doing so,

by..?


1498-1520:
Always prepared for an invasion by the Empire, or in case things got nasty in Italy, Louis XII expanded his army to become a formidable force. In 1515, Louis XII sent more explorers to "Louisiana."

this is in the middle of the war between Burgundy and the Anti-Burgundy Alliance {which probably is distracting the rest of the Empire from France, anyway}. Which side is Louis supporting?

He also cooperated with the Spanish in securing the independence of the Pyreneeial kingdom of Navarre as a buffer state between the two newly-unified nations of France and Spain.

why do they want/need a buffer if they're so chummy with one another?

Always a devout Catholic, Louis XII denounced the Portugese in their spit of the Pope,

so...you going to keep the Inquisition I gave France?
(because even if Wettinism isn't declared a heresy, there are more sects on the horizon)

[Aussey]

By "Louisiana," I meant the name of the colony. I'll edit in the references to Cabot instead, and it definatley being a New World. I meant FORT Caroline from OTL (Florida/Georgia,) not Port Caroline. Sorry. And by settlement, I meant trading post, again, didn't mean colonists, yet. I don't know exactly what it is I will be trading, but I suppose I could find a cash crop soon enough to grow there. It will probably be a stop on the way to the west coast of the upper new world, in the Cascade region, where I plan to have the French trade for furs, salmon, etc.

Ok. I will edit this TL to make Charles live and become king, that seems to provide more stability.

As for Navarre, I will keep things as is. That is a good idea.

BRB- I'm editing my previous post.

[Glen]

By "Louisiana," I meant the name of the colony. I'll edit in the references to Cabot instead, and it definatley being a New World. I meant FORT Caroline from OTL (Florida/Georgia,) not Port Caroline. Sorry.

Okay. BTW, you have neighbors just a few miles away in St Augustine....I can't recall if its the Spanish or the Neapolitans.

And by settlement, I meant trading post, again, didn't mean colonists, yet. I don't know exactly what it is I will be trading, but I suppose I could find a cash crop soon enough to grow there.

Not very well. Both Claudeville and St Augustine are likely marginal enterprises.

It will probably be a stop on the way to the west coast of the upper new world, in the Cascade region, where I plan to have the French trade for furs, salmon, etc.

Ha! Good luck getting there. How long do you think its going to be before you start visiting there?


Ok. I will edit this TL to make Charles live and become king, that seems to provide more stability.

It does by far. If you do that, also move the trips to the New World into the 1510s or 1520s. Its more plausible if it happens under a mature Charles rather than a regency.


As for Navarre, I will keep things as is. That is a good idea.

BRB- I'm editing my previous post.

Thanks. Look forward to seeing it.

[Aussey]

1495: Charles Orlando lives.

1493-1498: Recomended against doing so, King Charles VIII does not attempt to assert his vague claim to the throne of Naples. He is succeded in 1498 by his surviving son, the Dauphin Charles.

1498-: The early reign of Charles IX, under the regency of Queen Anne of Brittany, thus far is characterized mainly by the landing of French ships in the New World (OTL Georgia/Florida) after hearing of Cabot's "Norasie," in 1505, a a year before the king took the throne himself. A settlement was established, and named "Forte Nouvelle-Bretagne," (OTL Port Caroline.) The colony is named "Carolina," ("Caroline," in French,)in honor of the King. In Europe, Queen-Regent Anne is able to betrothe the king to his cousin, the Lady Marguerite d'Angoulême, (who in OTL would have become Marguerite de Navarre.) In 1509, the two were wed, and a son, Philippe, is born and declared "Dauphin."

In Europe, King Charles IX successfully brings peace to his Realm, declaring neutrility in the Burgundian/Anti-Burgundian conflict plauging the Holy Roman Empire. With no enemy to the east, he successfully makes friends with newly-unified Spain, and allows humanists from Italy into his court, recognizing the suzreignty of the current King of Naples, and Duke of Milan. Always one for peace and not war, Charles IX was France's first Renaissance monarch. More children were eventually born of the King and his wife.

Always a devout Catholic, Louis XII denounced the Portugese in their spit of the Pope, and actually supported the Spaniards and Neapolitans in their African difficulties. He remained neutral, militarily, but was known to support the Spanish and Italians. Elsewhere in Europe, including with the crusades, he continued to encourage peace, the true humanist he was.

In 1536, the Trans-Norasia Company was founded, and funded a mission to reach the "other ocean," the English talked of. They also hoped for a route to the Orient this way. In 1538, the mission landed on the western coast of Norasia, claiming the entire coast for the King of France. A trade settlement in the fur-plentiful and lumber-plentiful northern region called "Anneville." After establishing relations with the Natives and their fort, they left to travel back to France, by way of the new ocean. They traveled further down to a large natural bay, and established a fort there as well, "Ft. Philippe." In 1540 the arrived in a group of islands they claimed for France, the Carolines, and reached China. They arrived back in France in 1543 having successfully circumnavigated the globe.

[Aussey]

what do you think? only fourty years earlier than drake? and about a decade after magellan (would have?).

[Keenir]

1498-: The early reign of Charles IX, under the regency of Queen Anne of Brittany,

what happens to Jeanne?

In Europe, King Charles IX successfully brings peace to his Realm, declaring neutrility in the Burgundian/Anti-Burgundian conflict plauging the Holy Roman Empire.

is he supplying weapons or money to either side?

With no enemy to the east, he successfully makes friends with newly-unified Spain, and allows humanists from Italy into his court,

with no wars in Italy, why are humanists fleeing it?

He remained neutral, militarily, but was known to support the Spanish and Italians. Elsewhere in Europe, including with the crusades, he continued to encourage peace, the true humanist he was.

so...a humanist doesn't care about God? (I'm just asking, because wouldn't the logic of the time be that God doesn't like seeing His followers divided?...much less like seeing His followers having fun with infidels)

A trade settlement in the fur-plentiful and lumber-plentiful northern region called "Anneville." After establishing relations with the Natives and their fort, they left to travel back to France, by way of the new ocean. They traveled further down to a large natural bay, and established a fort there as well, "Ft. Philippe." In 1540 the arrived in a group of islands they claimed for France, the Carolines, and reached China. They arrived back in France in 1543 having successfully circumnavigated the globe.

yes, there's a passage in the Arctic...but you'd need a submarine to use it.

(or do you mean the Falklands? if that, its already claimed by the Hansa)

[Aussey]

what happens to Jeanne?

is he supplying weapons or money to either side?

with no wars in Italy, why are humanists fleeing it?

so...a humanist doesn't care about God? (I'm just asking, because wouldn't the logic of the time be that God doesn't like seeing His followers divided?...much less like seeing His followers having fun with infidels)

yes, there's a passage in the Arctic...but you'd need a submarine to use it.

(or do you mean the Falklands? if that, its already claimed by the Hansa)

Jeanne is non-significant in this TL.

No.

Because he is inviting some, because he likes their theories.

No, he is very much pious. But he believed in universal peace. As many Tudorian-era humanists thought.

No. Sailing from the California-Oregon-British Columbia region to the Philippines. "Across the new ocean."

[Glen]

1495: Charles Orlando lives.

Recommend following rewrite:

1495 December: Though measles ravages the city of Amboise, draconian measures ordered by the King manage to isolate the Dauphin, Charles Orlando, from the disease.


1493-1498: Recomended against doing so, King Charles VIII does not attempt to assert his vague claim to the throne of Naples. He is succeded in 1498 by his surviving son, the Dauphin Charles.

The reference to Naples is unnecessary. Recommend rewrite to the following.

1498: King Charles VIII of France dies. He is succeeded by his son, Charles Orlando. A regency is established under his mother, Queen Anne of Brittany.


1498-: The early reign of Charles IX, under the regency of Queen Anne of Brittany, thus far is characterized mainly by the landing of French ships in the New World (OTL Georgia/Florida) after hearing of Cabot's "Norasie," in 1505, a a year before the king took the throne himself. A settlement was established, and named "Forte Nouvelle-Bretagne," (OTL Port Caroline.) The colony is named "Carolina," ("Caroline," in French,)in honor of the King.

I nave no problem in particular with the French establishing a settlement, but 1505 is really rather early for it. And not a project that is likely to be initiated under a regency. I would say that the earliest you're likely to get there is 1510.

So he achieves his majority at the age of 14?

In Europe, Queen-Regent Anne is able to betrothe the king to his cousin, the Lady Marguerite d'Angoulême, (who in OTL would have become Marguerite de Navarre.) In 1509, the two were wed, and a son, Philippe, is born and declared "Dauphin."

No particular comment here, but I do have a question. Why this marriage?

In Europe, King Charles IX successfully brings peace to his Realm, declaring neutrility in the Burgundian/Anti-Burgundian conflict plauging the Holy Roman Empire.

Folks, please remember to run your entries through a spell check! This has several spelling errors. Again, if I have to spell check all entries, the timeline is going to take that much longer to get up and running.

With no enemy to the east, he successfully makes friends with newly-unified Spain, and allows humanists from Italy into his court, recognizing the suzreignty of the current King of Naples, and Duke of Milan. Always one for peace and not war, Charles IX was France's first Renaissance monarch. More children were eventually born of the King and his wife.

Always a devout Catholic, Louis XII denounced the Portugese in their spit of the Pope, and actually supported the Spaniards and Neapolitans in their African difficulties. He remained neutral, militarily, but was known to support the Spanish and Italians. Elsewhere in Europe, including with the crusades, he continued to encourage peace, the true humanist he was.

Humanist does not equal peaceful. You're welcome to guide Charles as you wish. However, I do recommend that you break some of this down into more discrete events, and check some of them with other participants when they are named.


In 1536, the Trans-Norasia Company was founded, and funded a mission to reach the "other ocean," the English talked of.

Arthurian Ocean. It has a name. Also, the English have already reached it and circumnavigated the globe. Not that you can't repeat our glory....:D

They also hoped for a route to the Orient this way. In 1538, the mission landed on the western coast of Norasia, claiming the entire coast for the King of France. A trade settlement in the fur-plentiful and lumber-plentiful northern region called "Anneville." After establishing relations with the Natives and their fort, they left to travel back to France, by way of the new ocean. They traveled further down to a large natural bay, and established a fort there as well, "Ft. Philippe."

A five year mission? Seems a bit long. Also, if they were headed for the Orient, why did they go to the Pacific Northwest?

Feel free to claim what you'd like, but where are you planning to put your waystations to get there? The Portuguese have made it clear that South America is in their sphere, so you'll have to fight them for it. Unlike some other nations, you're at least in their weight class to fight over it.

[QUOTE]In 1540 the arrived in a group of islands they claimed for France, the Carolines, and reached China. They arrived back in France in 1543 having successfully circumnavigated the globe.

Where are these 'Carolines'?

[Aussey]

The reference to Naples is unnecessary.

1498: King Charles VIII of France dies. He is succeeded by his son, Charles Orlando. A regency is established under his mother, Queen Anne of Brittany.

Ok, thanks.

I nave no problem in particular with the French establishing a settlement, but 1505 is really rather early for it. And not a project that is likely to be initiated under a regency. I would say that the earliest you're likely to get there is 1510.

So he achieves his majority at the age of 14?

Oh! My math's off! I'll up the colonizing of Carolina five or ten years...

No particular comment here, but I do have a question. Why this marriage?

Because it keeps it in the family, in France, and without needing to make alliances.

Folks, please remember to run your entries through a spell check! This has several spelling errors. Again, if I have to spell check all entries, the timeline is going to take that much longer to get up and running.

Sorry!

Humanist does not equal peaceful. You're welcome to guide Charles as you wish. However, I do recommend that you break some of this down into more discrete events, and check some of them with other participants when they are named.

I know not always, but this king is a Moore-esque "Universal and Perpetual Peace," supporter. How, do you mean, to make this more discrete? I was just tyring to make a quick summary.

Arthurian Ocean. It has a name. Also, the English have already reached it and circumnavigated the globe. Not that you can't repeat our glory....:D

Again! I'm new to the European spectrum! I'll change that.
:rolleyes:

A five year mission? Seems a bit long. Also, if they were headed for the Orient, why did they go to the Pacific Northwest?

Well, they had to establish forts, and they wanted to establish peace with the Natives as well. Again, I could lower this, I assume.

Feel free to claim what you'd like, but where are you planning to put your waystations to get there? The Portuguese have made it clear that South America is in their sphere, so you'll have to fight them for it. Unlike some other nations, you're at least in their weight class to fight over it.

Well, I have to set my foreign policy. I was thinking of establishing a Caribbean presence, and possibly (either by granting of Portugal, or by taking somewhere they aren't, a Guyanese or south-Brazilian settlement. Then I'd also probably ally with the persons in the Falklands.

ALSO- Who has the Inca? I'd like to have Franco-Incan interaction. Given as the French are not going to outright colonize a fellow civilization, they'll probably just sign an alliance with them, if they accept. Otherwise, we probably will leave them alone.

We're stopping in the Northwest because we were exploring the coast. And as the ENGLISH have taken the eastern fur trading areas, we're going to establish ones on the west coast.

Where are these 'Carolines'?

Guam, Marina, and the Philippines collectively.



Again. Thank you SO MUCH for the help in getting France off it's feet.

[Glen]

Ok, thanks.

Oh! My math's off! I'll up the colonizing of Carolina five or ten years...

Because it keeps it in the family, in France, and without needing to make alliances.

Sorry!

I know not always, but this king is a Moore-esque "Universal and Perpetual Peace," supporter. How, do you mean, to make this more discrete? I was just tyring to make a quick summary.

Again! I'm new to the European spectrum! I'll change that.
:rolleyes:

Okay to all the above comments.

Well, they had to establish forts, and they wanted to establish peace with the Natives as well. Again, I could lower this, I assume.

You're not going to be able to do all of that in just one trip. Pace yourself. You now have one of the few countries that can start to build up what is necessary, but you can't do it with one fleet in one shot.

Well, I have to set my foreign policy. I was thinking of establishing a Caribbean presence, and possibly (either by granting of Portugal, or by taking somewhere they aren't, a Guyanese or south-Brazilian settlement. Then I'd also probably ally with the persons in the Falklands.

Well, I suggest you get to posting your ideas in international discussions to see what kinds of resistance you'll face.

However, I have to say that your Moore-esque King may trip into war if he tries for Empire.

ALSO- Who has the Inca? I'd like to have Franco-Incan interaction. Given as the French are not going to outright colonize a fellow civilization, they'll probably just sign an alliance with them, if they accept. Otherwise, we probably will leave them alone.

Define civilization. :rolleyes: Well, someone is going to have to make contact with the Incans. I think we need to figure that out in International Discussions.


We're stopping in the Northwest because we were exploring the coast. And as the ENGLISH have taken the eastern fur trading areas, we're going to establish ones on the west coast.

Was the purpose of your journey to establish a trade route to Asia, or to explore the West Coast and if you find something, start establishing trade?

My problem was you turned a trip to Asia into a land grab for the Pacific Northwest.


Guam, Marina, and the Philippines collectively.

How the heck do you get down there from the Pacific Northwest? I think you need to either pick a goal, or split this journey into more than one.

Again. Thank you SO MUCH for the help in getting France off it's feet.

No problem. At this point, I'm trying to avoid the mistakes of the past month, and be more critical of entries by everyone.

[Psychomeltdown]

Well the Carolinas would either be claimed by China or Portugal by the time the French got there.

[Glen]

Well the Carolinas would either be claimed by China or Portugal by the time the French got there.

China, perhaps if they are so inclined. Portugal doubtful. Following OTL's pattern is about the best you can do right now I suspect, Meltdown. That's a lot of effort your Portuguese have been expending to vouchsafe your Indies route (which of course is precisely what Portugal should be doing).

BTW, once again, I will let you know that the English were there first, but we didn't make any claims on it, nor even name them, so its still a bit open. By the late 1520s, the Anglo-British will be back in the Far East, so we'll be making stops, though I have no particular thoughts at present at more than trade there.

[Keenir]

Jeanne is non-significant in this TL.
:confused:
what makes her suddenly become non-signifigant.

OTL, all the way up to the divergence of 1493, she fought tooth, nail, and politics to stay married to her husband.

No.

if he's as worried about the Holy Roman Empire as you've suggested, why wouldn't he try to tip the scales?

Because he is inviting some, because he likes their theories.

and he hears their theories (initially)...how?

I think you missed a step.

No, he is very much pious. But he believed in universal peace. As many Tudorian-era humanists thought.

No. Sailing from the California-Oregon-British Columbia region to the Philippines. "Across the new ocean."

um, how did he get to the California-B.C. region from the French coast, without ticking anybody off?
(you might've missed the spectacle of the Hansa players being grilled when they said they'd like to land on the coast of Pategonia a while back) :)

[Keenir]

Recommend following rewrite:

1495 December: Though measles ravages the city of Amboise, draconian measures ordered by the King manage to isolate the Dauphin, Charles Orlando, from the disease.

I agree with Aussey -- people did survive getting measles.

and the suffering he goes through with the measles might make him more inclined towards humanism.
(or not)

The reference to Naples is unnecessary.

given that it started off the Italian Wars in OTL, its absence would ideally be explained at least briefly.[/quote]

[Keenir]

ALSO- Who has the Inca? I'd like to have Franco-Incan interaction. Given as the French are not going to outright colonize a fellow civilization,

why is France inclined to recognize the Inca as a civilized people / civilization?
*is curious*

[Glen]

I agree with Aussey -- people did survive getting measles.

and the suffering he goes through with the measles might make him more inclined towards humanism.
(or not)

I don't think that Aussey disagreed with me. I just tweeked the OTL event to make it successful. It could as easily be he survives measles, you are correct.

I don't really care.

given that it started off the Italian Wars in OTL, its absence would ideally be explained at least briefly.

And has already been by the stuff written by Messiniano.

[Keenir]

I don't think that Aussey disagreed with me.

I'm not saying he did.

I'm just saying there's more than one way to survive measles (besides not getting measles)

And has already been by the stuff written by Messiniano.

but it was France that started the war. ergo, the short reference, the dropped-in line.

[Glen]

I'm not saying he did.

I'm just saying there's more than one way to survive measles (besides not getting measles)



but it was France that started the war. ergo, the short reference, the dropped-in line.

Actually, I'd argue it was Ludovico Sforza on behalf of Milan. Here he's been removed. Thus no need to make further reference.

[Keenir]

Actually, I'd argue it was Ludovico Sforza on behalf of Milan. Here he's been removed. Thus no need to make further reference.

except that France's king did have a claim (however tenuous), and he had an army able to back him up.

[Glen]

except that France's king did have a claim (however tenuous), and he had an army able to back him up.

And without the initial assistance of Milan, he wasn't going to get anywhere near to Naples.

It was Sforza that sparked the war. There need be no further comment.

[The Sicilian]

[[@ Messiniano- tell me if you like this part -->]] In return for an alliance to help them against the Portugese, who were quickly discovering vast lands, the Louis XII recognized the king of Naples as "King of Naples," and denounced his claims to the throne. He continued to claim, titularly that is, to be "Duke of Milan," and when Francois I was crowned king in 1521, he too was crowned "(titular) Duke of Milan."

Sorry Aussey, here is where we come to contention:

1: It is a technicality, but his titles is 'King of Sicily'. King of Naples is just an operating terms, as that is where the capitol and the majority of the population is.

2:His claim to Milan was quite vague IIRC. Besides, he would need Papal sanction to do that, not Neapolitan. It is the euquivalent of Alphonso granting the French king the title of Byzantine Emperor.

3: Does the King honsetly care that much about what is going on in Africa? Enough to make him go to war?

[The Sicilian]

With no enemy to the east, he successfully makes friends with newly-unified Spain, and allows humanists from Italy into his court, recognizing the suzreignty of the current King of Naples, and Duke of Milan. Always one for peace and not war, Charles IX was France's first Renaissance monarch. More children were eventually born of the King and his wife.

Much better Aussey. Peace is in our Hands! :D

[AJNolte]

Recommend following rewrite:

1495 December: Though measles ravages the city of Amboise, draconian measures ordered by the King manage to isolate the Dauphin, Charles Orlando, from the disease.



The reference to Naples is unnecessary. Recommend rewrite to the following.

1498: King Charles VIII of France dies. He is succeeded by his son, Charles Orlando. A regency is established under his mother, Queen Anne of Brittany.



I nave no problem in particular with the French establishing a settlement, but 1505 is really rather early for it. And not a project that is likely to be initiated under a regency. I would say that the earliest you're likely to get there is 1510.

So he achieves his majority at the age of 14?



No particular comment here, but I do have a question. Why this marriage?



Folks, please remember to run your entries through a spell check! This has several spelling errors. Again, if I have to spell check all entries, the timeline is going to take that much longer to get up and running.



Humanist does not equal peaceful. You're welcome to guide Charles as you wish. However, I do recommend that you break some of this down into more discrete events, and check some of them with other participants when they are named.



Arthurian Ocean. It has a name. Also, the English have already reached it and circumnavigated the globe. Not that you can't repeat our glory....:D

[quote]They also hoped for a route to the Orient this way. In 1538, the mission landed on the western coast of Norasia, claiming the entire coast for the King of France. A trade settlement in the fur-plentiful and lumber-plentiful northern region called "Anneville." After establishing relations with the Natives and their fort, they left to travel back to France, by way of the new ocean. They traveled further down to a large natural bay, and established a fort there as well, "Ft. Philippe."

A five year mission? Seems a bit long. Also, if they were headed for the Orient, why did they go to the Pacific Northwest?

Feel free to claim what you'd like, but where are you planning to put your waystations to get there? The Portuguese have made it clear that South America is in their sphere, so you'll have to fight them for it. Unlike some other nations, you're at least in their weight class to fight over it.



Where are these 'Carolines'?

Uh, if France does end up fighting Portugal over the new world, their Catholic Majesties would be very interested.

[Psychomeltdown]

Uh, if France does end up fighting Portugal over the new world, their Catholic Majesties would be very interested.

Well, I would think the English would be a little more than bothered to have the French, their traditional enemies, snooping about their own spheres of influence.

If the Brits do head to China then I'm thinking they'll be a bit of tension between

1. Portugal
2. France
3. England
4. Hansa

Since they've all raised interest in the matter of heading to China for trade and influence. Not to mention China's own delusions of being a maritime power. I'm sure Spain and Naples will also suddenly throw their carvels into the fray.

Portugal might be very willing to let go of all it's claim in S. America and Everything Asia east of Malacca (besides the Spice Islands) if the price were right....

[pompejus]

1513 - French King Louis XII recognizes Charles of Gueldres as the king of Oversticht.


You better change this in:
1513 - French King Louis XII recognizes Charles of Gueldres as the lord of Oversticht.

[Keenir]

You better change this in:
1513 - French King Louis XII recognizes Charles of Gueldres as the lord of Oversticht.

well, in a way, it did get changed: when he inherited France, Aussey threw out every one of my events....so now the only place whose legitimacy is recognized by France - is Milan.

sorry.

[Glen]

Well, I would think the English would be a little more than bothered to have the French, their traditional enemies, snooping about their own spheres of influence.

Yes, the English will be miffed. It all depends on how hard they push. A few trade posts in non-English regions won't be enough for all out war, but if they threaten English interests, or worse attack English ships or protectorates, there will be trouble.


If the Brits do head to China then I'm thinking they'll be a bit of tension between

1. Portugal

Everyone heads for China; it is still the holy grail of trade. However, since the English are taking a rather different route than the one the Portuguese are building, are going there a bit later than the Portuguese, and in every other respect have had good relations, I don't think this will be too bad of a tension builder.

The Portuguese and Spanish didn't have problems, this despite the Spanish having a similar trade route to the Far East as I am building for the English.

2. France

Quite possible. The English and French have history. Personally, Arthur would rather have peace and prosperity, but if the French push, it could be a problem. But we'll see.



4. Hansa

We need to look at the revised Hansa activities. Right now, the Hansa are benefitting more from being the English's retailers on the continent than they would from trying to establish their own New World possessions, but they might be tempted to go for the grail of a route to the Far East. They at least make an attempt at an expedition, IIRC. Don't know how far they are willing to go.

Since they've all raised interest in the matter of heading to China for trade and influence. Not to mention China's own delusions of being a maritime power.

Be nice. China has the potential, just needs to get over those damned Confucian Scholars....

I'm sure Spain and Naples will also suddenly throw their carvels into the fray.

Spain could, Naples not so much.

Portugal might be very willing to let go of all it's claim in S. America and Everything Asia east of Malacca (besides the Spice Islands) if the price were right....

Wow! That would be a breathtaking concession from the world spanning Portuguese. What price could be worth that to the Portuguese? Please do tell!

[Psychomeltdown]

Wow! That would be a breathtaking concession from the world spanning Portuguese. What price could be worth that to the Portuguese? Please do tell!

Oddly that sounds like a sarcastic remark. :P

But Portugal would really be willing to give up it's claims in the New World for the simple ensuring of having lasting peace in it's home territory through the dis-unification of Spain.

If England or France would be willing to aid in that, then Portugal would happily hand over all territories claimed in the new world.

[Glen]

Oddly that sounds like a sarcastic remark. :P

But Portugal would really be willing to give up it's claims in the New World for the simple ensuring of having lasting peace in it's home territory through the dis-unification of Spain.

If England or France would be willing to aid in that, then Portugal would happily hand over all territories claimed in the new world.

:eek::eek::eek:

[Psychomeltdown]

:eek::eek::eek:

Tensions between Portugal and Spain, have been rising since the beginning of the 1500s.

1. Spain has been spiraling the drain financially.
2. Portugal has been getting rich off it's ass.
3. Spain and Portugal are no longer tied as close as they were in OTl.
4. Religious probs in Portugal, which could entice a heavily religious Spain to try and knock down the crown of Manoel.


It's looking more like only one of them will have to come out of this century intact...

[Glen]

Tensions between Portugal and Spain, have been rising since the beginning of the 1500s.

1. Spain has been spiraling the drain financially.

Unclear. Certainly they are not as rich as they were at this same time in OTL.

2. Portugal has been getting rich off it's ass. And supporting slightly more naval activity than OTL. Portugal is about the same as OTL if not a little less rich for investing more in their conquests.

3. Spain and Portugal are no longer tied as close as they were in OTl. VERY TRUE.

4. Religious probs in Portugal, which could entice a heavily religious Spain to try and knock down the crown of Manoel.

Could be, could be.


It's looking more like only one of them will have to come out of this century intact...

Well, that might be a bit premature, but it will definitely be interesting to see what happens.

[Psychomeltdown]

And supporting slightly more naval activity than OTL. Portugal is about the same as OTL if not a little less rich for investing more in their conquests.

Actually they would be a lot more richer in TTL than in OTL. A lot of effort and money were spent by Manoel in OTL on missionaries, the Church, and things going on in Europe, and his ally the Spanish.

The funding to the church has been cut/drastically reduced. Portugal is more isolated and more focused upon India and Africa than Europe. They've been expanding their infrastructure for the last 15 years and will be beginning to reap the rewards from that by mid 1520s in the form of more ships, better trained personnel, and a society geared more toward commercialism, trade, banking, and manufacturing (ship related items).

[AJNolte]

The disunification of Spain?
Huh?
I mean, I can see why you'd want it, but how are you going to achieve it exactly? Juan of Asturias is the best claimant for both Aragon and Castile. The Spanish are currently at peace with both France and Navarre, as well as England.
So you're asking either France or England to help you take apart Spain for the possible promise that you might actually keep your word and sell them your claims to South America?
Do you think Charles of France and Arthur of England are stupid?
If they really wanted South America, why not ally with the Spanish and just take it from you? Any two of these powers put together would crush your ueber-Portugal in less than a year.
Temporarily at least...

[Glen]

Actually they would be a lot more richer in TTL than in OTL. A lot of effort and money were spent by Manoel in OTL on missionaries, the Church, and things going on in Europe, and his ally the Spanish.

The funding to the church has been cut/drastically reduced. Portugal is more isolated and more focused upon India and Africa than Europe. They've been expanding their infrastructure for the last 15 years and will be beginning to reap the rewards from that by mid 1520s in the form of more ships, better trained personnel, and a society geared more toward commercialism, trade, banking, and manufacturing (ship related items).

The bits about the Church are a good point. That'll save you some cash, maybe enough to offset the additional investment you've made overseas.

Banking? Did I miss something or did you just not get around to posting that?

[Psychomeltdown]

Banking? Did I miss something or did you just not get around to posting that?

Well that was going to begin in late 1518 and pick up some steam in 1520s. The reasoning behind it is that it's where all the money is, you've got companies being set up, Manoel has allowed for companies to engage in the India trade, and gold and items coming from the Orient.

[Keenir]

Well that was going to begin in late 1518 and pick up some steam in 1520s. The reasoning behind it is that it's where all the money is, you've got companies being set up, Manoel has allowed for companies to engage in the India trade, and gold and items coming from the Orient.

and the banks...?
*is trying to follow the logic train*

[Glen]

Well that was going to begin in late 1518 and pick up some steam in 1520s. The reasoning behind it is that it's where all the money is, you've got companies being set up, Manoel has allowed for companies to engage in the India trade, and gold and items coming from the Orient.

Not necessarily. It could all go to assuage the bruised egos of your nobles, who you've been terrorizing....;)

[Psychomeltdown]

Not necessarily. It could all go to assuage the bruised egos of your nobles, who you've been terrorizing....;)

Well it's not the nobles that are being terrorized as much as the church is being put in it's correct place. :D

John II already terrorized the Nobles into submission, Manoel has just kept his hand on the chain and made a few examples out of those that try to defy him.

[Psychomeltdown]

and the banks...?
*is trying to follow the logic train*
Well there's capital in Portugal, businesses need money to start up, companies need money to buy ships and crews, Where there's a need for money and where there is plenty of stuff that can be used as capital, then that'll draw in the people who deal with money and who manage those sorts of things.

As it seems everywhere else, the Jews are leading the way.

[Keenir]

Well it's not the nobles that are being terrorized as much as the church is being put in it's correct place. :D

and any nobles who try to help the Church....well, they were a bother anyway. :D

John II already terrorized the Nobles into submission, Manoel has just kept his hand on the chain and made a few examples out of those that try to defy him.

so he knows how to use the stick...has he used the carrot? (ie, rewarding the more loyal of the nobles)

[Keenir]

As it seems everywhere else, the Jews are leading the way.

hmm....I wonder if there's a problem with the math -- practically every country in Europe and North Africa seems to have taken in at least half of the Jews of Spain.
:confused:

[Psychomeltdown]

so he knows how to use the stick...has he used the carrot? (ie, rewarding the more loyal of the nobles)

the Explorers and the like he's heaped rewards upon. The trend is now shifting toward either investing in a company to get rich or head to india to make it big...

[Psychomeltdown]

hmm....I wonder if there's a problem with the math -- practically every country in Europe and North Africa seems to have taken in at least half of the Jews of Spain.
:confused:

I've noticed that too. Its even weirder because spain did not expell any of it's Jews. Nor did Portugal.

[Keenir]

I've noticed that too. Its even weirder because spain did not expell any of it's Jews. Nor did Portugal.

imho, we should let this instance of it pass without serious comment or challenge......if we tried to retcon it, the KoJ discussion would pale in comparison.
:eek:;)

[Glen]

hmm....I wonder if there's a problem with the math -- practically every country in Europe and North Africa seems to have taken in at least half of the Jews of Spain.
:confused:

I've noticed that too. Its even weirder because spain did not expell any of it's Jews. Nor did Portugal.

Everyone trying to take in Jews is ahistorical. The Ottomans do (in fact, sent ships in 1492 to help evacuate them), Naples apparently took a few OTL as well.

Sorry, Psychomeltdown, but you're wrong here. The Jews were most definitely thrown out of Spain as this happened OTL in 1492. While you did only do a half-hearted attempt at it in Portugal, I must believe that some Jews left, though not nearly as many as in OTL, I agree.

[Psychomeltdown]

Sorry, Psychomeltdown, but you're wrong here. The Jews were most definitely thrown out of Spain as this happened OTL in 1492. While you did only do a half-hearted attempt at it in Portugal, I must believe that some Jews left, though not nearly as many as in OTL, I agree.

Oh? whoops. Thought someone posted that Spain didn't dump out it's Jews.

[Glen]

Oh? whoops. Thought someone posted that Spain didn't dump out it's Jews.

Just laying off the Conversos a bit more.

[Keenir]

Oh? whoops. Thought someone posted that Spain didn't dump out it's Jews.

more of trying to reverse the process, than avoiding it altogether.