1493--Navarre.

[AJNolte]

I'd like some suggestions as to how I can maintain Navarrese independence and territorial integrity without being ASB.

One obvious thought is Spain's failure to conquer Navarre. Since the Mamluk war is going to happen and since Spain has some obvious tensions with Portugal, I think this is plausible. If France (a Navarrese ally) is willing to tell the Spanish in no uncertain terms that an attack on Navarre will mean war I think Spain will back down. Later we could see a role reversal.

I also want John Calvin. IKeenir: can I have him?

Thanks. I'll get this TL going shortly.

[Keenir]

One obvious thought is Spain's failure to conquer Navarre. Since the Mamluk war is going to happen and since Spain has some obvious tensions with Portugal, I think this is plausible. If France (a Navarrese ally) is willing to tell the Spanish in no uncertain terms that an attack on Navarre will mean war I think Spain will back down.

sounds good; it also simplifies how much I have to type.

I also want John Calvin. IKeenir: can I have him?

you've already got Luther and another reformer. let's see if anyone else wants him first.

fair?

[Glen]

Sorry, OTL's John Calvin was not born into this timeline, as his birth was in 1509, about 16 years after the point of divergence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin

There is also little to indicate that his family would produce such figures on a regular basis.

On the otherhand, you should feel free to give birth within your own territories to theological reformers born after 1493 who you don't have to ask for permission to control and you can have be like whatever you wish.

How's that?;)

[Tom Veil]

If France and Spain are each willing to fight to keep the other from conquering Navarre -- highly plausible in my mind -- then Navarre has a pretty good chance of surviving until the rise of Nationalism. The question will be whether the balance of power (in terms of land armies) ever fails.

If Navarre can survive the early years of Nationalism and forge a separate national identity, then it's pretty much safe forever. (Based on trends up to 1520, I think we're still on track for Europe to adopt the nation-state concept as wholeheartedly as in OTL).

[AJNolte]

I think they can forge a Basque identity actually: OTL the Navarrese huguenots translated the Bible into Basque before Navarre merged with France.

If not Calvin, I'll have to have some other reformer.

[Glen]

I think they can forge a Basque identity actually: OTL the Navarrese huguenots translated the Bible into Basque before Navarre merged with France.

If not Calvin, I'll have to have some other reformer.

Or you can create one. Calvin was born in 1509. Our PODs start in 1493. You could have someone who fills your Calvin needs born even earlier than Calvin would have been, if you like.

[AJNolte]

1501: John and Catherine's first son, christened Andres Febo DAlbrett, is born.
1503: Henry, second son of John and Catherine, is born. However Andres survives and remains heir presumptive.
1512: while some discussion of conquering Navarre is entertained in the Spanish court, Ferdinand does not have a claim because Queen Isabella is still alive and, as such, Ferdinand has not married Germain DeFoix. He decides that a potentially costly war which might bring the French in in support of the Navarrese is not prudent at present (possibly due to complications in the holy land).

Now, I need a politically nutral bride for Andrew of Navarre, one who won't irritate the French or the Spanish. And I think I've got just the girl...but I'll have to look it up first.

[Glen]

1512: while some discussion of conquering Navarre is entertained in the Spanish court, Ferdinand decides that a potentially costly war which might bring the French in in support of the Navarrese is not prudent at present (possibly due to complications in the holy land).

Now, I need a politically nutral bride for Henry II of Navarre, one who won't irritate the French or the Spanish. And I think I've got just the girl...but I'll have to look it up first.

I'm sure we can find a spare English princess laying about....:rolleyes:

[AJNolte]

I'm sure we can find a spare English princess laying about....:rolleyes:



That would be great. Just give me a name and a year of birth. It's that or Clara Hellena of Saxony. The thing I like about this match is thatit gets some Wettinite ideas into Navarre. And what's your relationship like with France? How would the French react to an English princess?
That said, England could be a better match for the Navarrese (and England and Navarre are both balance of power type nations). So I'm interested to hear about any princesses you've got.

[AJNolte]

Note: I've just seen that John and Catherine had a son named Andres (Andrew) born in 1501. I'm keeping him alive here to become Andrew of Navarre. He will have three younger brothers: Henry, Martin and Charles. Not to mention several sisters...
So if you need dynastic matches, Navarre is wide open. That would be great. Just give me a name and a year of birth. It's that or Clara Hellena of Saxony. The thing I like about this match is thatit gets some Wettinite ideas into Navarre. And what's your relationship like with France? How would the French react to an English princess?
That said, England could be a better match for the Navarrese (and England and Navarre are both balance of power type nations). So I'm interested to hear about any princesses you've got.

[Glen]

That would be great. Just give me a name and a year of birth. It's that or Clara Hellena of Saxony. The thing I like about this match is thatit gets some Wettinite ideas into Navarre. And what's your relationship like with France? How would the French react to an English princess?
That said, England could be a better match for the Navarrese (and England and Navarre are both balance of power type nations). So I'm interested to hear about any princesses you've got.

Well, France and England have had a rocky relationship in the recent past. England is tied by marriage at present to both Spain AND Portugal, though. And will be to Scotland as well as soon as I get that entry together.

Basically, I'm going to make certain that we have enough royal princesses to go around by having a few more survive/born to Henry VII and his wife.

[Iñaki]

Originally posted by AJNolte
1501: John and Catherine's first son, christened Andres Febo DAlbrett, is born.
1503: Henry, second son of John and Catherine, is born. However Andres survives and remains heir presumptive.
1512: while some discussion of conquering Navarre is entertained in the Spanish court, Ferdinand does not have a claim because Queen Isabella is still alive and, as such, Ferdinand has not married Germain DeFoix. He decides that a potentially costly war which might bring the French in in support of the Navarrese is not prudent at present (possibly due to complications in the holy land).


Good solution! Totally plaussible, I would add that surely in TTL Gaston de Foix is not dead (he died in OTL in the battle of Ravena), in OTL the death of Gaston (brother of Germain) + the marriage of Germaine with Ferdinand was the cause and pretext for Ferdinand to invade Navarra.

[Glen]

Good solution! Totally plaussible, I would add that surely in TTL Gaston de Foix is not dead (he died in OTL in the battle of Ravena), in OTL the death of Gaston (brother of Germain) + the marriage of Germaine with Ferdinand was the cause and pretext for Ferdinand to invade Navarra.

THANK YOU FOR THE FEEDBACK!!!:D:D:D:D

[Psychomeltdown]

if Navarre does continue to exist and there are tensions between Spain and Portugal, then it would be an easy jump to Portugal allying with France to keep Spain in check.

If Spain doesn't want to go to war with france, then it surely won't want to go to war with France and Portugal.

Though isn't France a political and internal mess right now?

[Glen]

if Navarre does continue to exist and there are tensions between Spain and Portugal, then it would be an easy jump to Portugal allying with France to keep Spain in check.

If Spain doesn't want to go to war with france, then it surely won't want to go to war with France and Portugal.

Though isn't France a political and internal mess right now?

We have to talk with Keenir about that, but one would assume so, given how quiet its been on the international front....

[AJNolte]

if Navarre does continue to exist and there are tensions between Spain and Portugal, then it would be an easy jump to Portugal allying with France to keep Spain in check.

If Spain doesn't want to go to war with france, then it surely won't want to go to war with France and Portugal.

Though isn't France a political and internal mess right now?

Navarre is basically a balance-of-power nation where Spain and France are concerned. As they're small and border both, they won't want either nation to get too big for it's briches. England is probably it's most natural ally, as they have the same concerns.

That said, I think a Franko-Portuguese combination would make both Navarre and the English nervous, as it seems to swing the advantage toward France.
Anyway, the whole France scaring off Spain thing becomes somewhat moot. By not marrying Germain de Foix, Ferdinand has no claim to Navarre and so won't be invading anyway.

Now, I could see a Navarrese-Portuguese alliance to complement the Navarrese-English alliance. In this way Navarre allies itself with the two traditional rivals of it's big scary neighbors while not provocatively snubbing either.

PS: does Navarre have any coastline?

[Keenir]

Now, I could see a Navarrese-Portuguese alliance to complement the Navarrese-English alliance. In this way Navarre allies itself with the two traditional rivals of it's big scary neighbors while not provocatively snubbing either.

except that then its alliance system will look like this:

Navarre-Portugal
Portugal-England
England-Navarre

....and Spain and France will both have an interest in weakening such a trinity.

PS: does Navarre have any coastline?

not if it threatens to get chumy with both of them, it won't!
;):D

[Glen]

except that then its alliance system will look like this:

Actually, it would look like this.

Spain-England
England-Navarre
Navarre-Portugal
Portugal-England

England would actually be allied with Spain, Portugal, AND Navarre.

We like to think of ourselves as peacemakers....:rolleyes:

[Keenir]

Actually, it would look like this.

Spain-England

when did that Alliance crop up?

you do realize, of course, that you're throwing France into the arms of the Holy Roman Empire.

[Glen]

when did that Alliance crop up?

you do realize, of course, that you're throwing France into the arms of the Holy Roman Empire.


Nah, they hate France, too.:p

Actually, the alliance between England and Spain is OTL and predates the POD, and was sealed by the marriage of Catherine of Aragon to Arthur Prince of Wales.

[The Sicilian]

I believe that the English-Portugese alliance is older than that, so in the case of the war between Spain and Portugal, England would support Portugal

[Glen]

I believe that the English-Portugese alliance is older than that, so in the case of the war between Spain and Portugal, England would support Portugal

Well, the English and Portuguese IOTL DO have a long history of cooperation. The marriage deals though have Spain ahead timewise.

England will do, as always, what is in England's best interests.

[Smaug]

I like the Independent Navarre thing. It adds another early maritime power.

That might help out the New World and Asia in the long run.

[marl_d]

Russia is looking for Western allies :p:D

[Keenir]

I like the Independent Navarre thing. It adds another early maritime power.

That might help out the New World and Asia in the long run.

the Swiss and Swedish didn't help out the New World and Asia a great deal in OTL...why would Navarre?
(translation: just because they might one day become a maritime power, doesn't mean they'll de facto be benevolent or make other powers tolerant)

[AJNolte]

the Swiss and Swedish didn't help out the New World and Asia a great deal in OTL...why would Navarre?
(translation: just because they might one day become a maritime power, doesn't mean they'll de facto be benevolent or make other powers tolerant)
1. It's an Atlantic maritime power versus a Baltic one. This BTW is the reasonHanseatic colonization got squashed.
2. Navarre helps the new world in that it's one more power to muddy the waters if and when we get there.

Don't worry: Navarre has no hostile intentions toward France, and would actually lean toward you over Spain. That doesn't mean Navarre completely trusts either country: it's too small for that. But if attacked by one it wants to be able to call on the other.

[Smaug]

1. It's an Atlantic maritime power versus a Baltic one. This BTW is the reasonHanseatic colonization got squashed.
2. Navarre helps the new world in that it's one more power to muddy the waters if and when we get there.

Don't worry: Navarre has no hostile intentions toward France, and would actually lean toward you over Spain. That doesn't mean Navarre completely trusts either country: it's too small for that. But if attacked by one it wants to be able to call on the other.


it's one more power to muddy the waters ... I rather like that, plus, I'd like to see the Basque do better. JMO

[AJNolte]

it's one more power to muddy the waters ... I rather like that, plus, I'd like to see the Basque do better. JMO


That's what I'm going for, yes.

[AJNolte]

I'm thinking Navarre is nutral in the Spanish/Portuguese war, but leans toward Spain, simply because both of it's too large neighbors do. However, with the rise of Wettinism, things will get interesting. I want to take Andrew into the Wettinite camp. King Juan of Spain won't do anything, because he's really not in shape to do so. Will France try to conquer Navarre in the name of the counter-reformation? Will Portugal stick out it's neck for it's co-religionists if so?
I'd also like to send an expedition to the Caribbean. I think Barbados is as yet uncolonized...
Anyway, it won't be a huge one.

[Keenir]

However, with the rise of Wettinism, things will get interesting. I want to take Andrew into the Wettinite camp.

were they inclined to do so in OTL?

[AJNolte]

were they inclined to do so in OTL?


Yes.OTL the Navarrese became Calvinists and translated the Bible into Basque. Navarre's king Henry (later Henry IV of France) was a champion of the Huguenot cause.

[Keenir]

Yes.OTL the Navarrese became Calvinists

you said the Palatine did likewise - at least a century after the divergence; same thing here?

[AJNolte]

you said the Palatine did likewise - at least a century after the divergence; same thing here?

No no, the Navarrese conversion happened in the 1530s I think, under Jeane DAlbert (or his wife?) Andrew is their son, as was Henry of Navarre the Huguenot.
It's not essential that Navarre go reformed, but it is plausible, and potentially cool (something about Basque Puritan nationalism strikes me as...intriguing).

[Glen]

I approve overall of the Navarrese going Wettinite. Seems plausible. However, you might want to wait until there's a new ruler on the throne of Navarre for that to happen.

[AJNolte]

I approve overall of the Navarrese going Wettinite. Seems plausible. However, you might want to wait until there's a new ruler on the throne of Navarre for that to happen.


Well Andrew is crowned in 1518 or 19, so I figured he'd do the trick. He's a character who died ITTL. Does this work?

[Glen]

Well Andrew is crowned in 1518 or 19, so I figured he'd do the trick. He's a character who died ITTL. Does this work?

Yep, sure does.

[AJNolte]

Yep, sure does.

Excellent: I'll post it in the 1522 or 23 draft then.