1493 International Discussions 1521-1530

[Glen]

For IC and OOC discussions of international figures and events for 1521-1530.

[AJNolte]

1. The reformation is going to be a huge thing. We need to coordinate that.
2. What's going on with the Portuguese war we talked about before the TL review? Is it still going to happen?

[Keenir]

1. The reformation is going to be a huge thing. We need to coordinate that.

do we need a Reformation?

just wondering.

[AJNolte]

Well, at the very least we need a council to resolve the Wettinite issues, which, unless I've missed something, have not yet been retconed out.

[Glen]

Well, at the very least we need a council to resolve the Wettinite issues, which, unless I've missed something, have not yet been retconed out.

I see no plausibility problems with the Wettin material, which has been very carefully and slowly developed, so its in.

[Glen]

do we need a Reformation?

just wondering.

Well, some people are definitely moving reform movements forward in their home territories. Whether it will be a full blown Reformation parallel to OTL or something more or something less depends on how the various nations, and most importantly, the Pope, respond to them.

[Tom Veil]

Let me know if you're planning to have any effects on the American mid-Atlantic or South Asia. These are my plans for the 1520s; they are very modest.

Iroquoians: Population begins to recover, until the next contagious European shows up. The writing of the constitution (was 1506, got nixed) will happen around 1521, but the language will now be an ungainly combination of English-style phonetics and Wampanoik-style logograms. No wars.

Rajput Bharata: The Emperor has several children, and continues to obsess with domestic affairs. Jainism continues to flourish, with several great temples beginning construction. Guru Nanak Dev goes on a 5-year pilgrimage to every site in South Asia that anyone has ever declared holy, thereby spreading pockets of Vahiguru-sikhism to the whole subcontinent. No wars.

[Glen]

I plan on having significant effects in the North and Mid-Atlantic Coasts of Norasia.

Some of these need to be written retro as they occur more in the 1510s, but it will continue on in the 1520s.

The plagues first hitting Norasian trading partners of England will have several effects on English (then Anglo-British) actions over the next few decades. The 1490s and first decade of 1500s saw most English presence in Norasia as seasonal trade outposts and forts, typically manned only from Spring to Fall, with the traders returning to England with the last ships on the return leg of a long coastal trade route. In the first decade of 1500s, we do see a few traders who have 'gone native' and stay year-round, mostly those who have married into the local peoples. Once the plagues hit, the English will see a sharp drop-off in the fur trade (won't see as much in Mesoamerica when it hits there due to the population density). The Society for Merchant Venturers will have to send English trappers for the first time to supplement what the natives used to bring in. The English Crown will also enlist Dowcra's Hospitalers to provide aid and comfort to the tribes around the English trade areas. All of this will necessitate for the first time the establishment of year round habitation of the English trade areas. They will rely heavily on surviving local peoples to teach them to live in Norasia.

By the end of the 1520s, I see the trade outposts starting to develop around them small settlements that are mixed English (and Welsh, Cornish, and Irish, of course) and Native American. While there will be efforts on the part of the Hospitalers (all chosen from English subjects or pledged to loyalty to the English crown before going abroad) to convert as they comfort, this will definitely be a carrot not stick approach. Basically, both peoples will have to lean on each other to survive and thrive, and the Society of Merchant Venturers will demand that they do so to keep the fur trade running.

[Glen]

For Mesoamerica, I need a few more retro events to establish this, but....

Basically the English traders will first be interested in the trade in spices, especially vanilla. However, the Totonac and Haustec are early on entreating the English for aid against the Aztec. Within a few years of contact, the Totonac and Haustec will trade access to English weapons and a smattering of English horsemen for loyalty and exclusive trade with the English. Together with some other peoples tired of Aztec oppression, they will overthrow the bloody Aztec, subjugating them.

The Haustec will gain their independence from the Aztec in return for becoming a protectorate of the English (later Anglo-British) Empire. The native leadership will remain in charge, only swearing loyalty to the English crown (basically they are trading a local tyrrany for a distant abstract king, its a really good deal). They will only be required to trade with the English and to give up human sacrifices (actually, we'll probably work out some events that are acceptable to the Haustec where at least their leader converts to Christianity....through the clever tongue of the enigmatic Brother John...he'll equate Quetzalcoatl to Christ and argue too that the Sacrifice of the Son of God on the Cross has made all other sacrifice superfluous....)

The Totonac are much larger and more sophisticated. Their leadership will gain control of the Aztec and will be directly in charge of paying a tribute in silver in return for the aid they received in gaining supremacy over the Aztec. Other than that bit, they will have very similar relations with the English as do the Haustec, becoming another protectorate of the English/Anglo-British Empire....and I get all the Vanilla I want, YAY!!!:D

Basically the English are looking for low investment, high yield relations. By fostering association rather than outright conquest, they get the trade without having to try and spend lives and treasure on conquest (hey, they don't know how easy it was for the OTL Spanish).

[Glen]

Do any of you have special requests for Zwingli? The 1520s is when he would have risen to prominance IOTL. I'll entertain any and all requests, though I make no promises.....

[Keenir]

Do any of you have special requests for Zwingli?

who?
........................

[AJNolte]

Do any of you have special requests for Zwingli? The 1520s is when he would have risen to prominance IOTL. I'll entertain any and all requests, though I make no promises.....


A hunting accident? <g>

He and Wettin are not going to get along; Zwingli was considerably more radical on transsubstantiation issues (Wettin hasn't even questioned that one actually) and was into theocracy.
Like I said, he's your problem...err, responsibility.
But I want Calvin ***looks at Keenir***

[Glen]

A hunting accident? <g>

That, or something like it, could certainly be arranged....:rolleyes:

He and Wettin are not going to get along; Zwingli was considerably more radical on transsubstantiation issues (Wettin hasn't even questioned that one actually) and was into theocracy. Like I said, he's your problem...err, responsibility.

True, but I'm feeling like taking commentary.


But I want Calvin ***looks at Keenir***

Calvin born waaay after POD, so no Calvin. Feel free to give birth to a Calvin Clone.:D

[Smaug]

Glen.The Haustec will gain their independence from the Aztec in return for becoming a protectorate of the English (later Anglo-British) Empire. The native leadership will remain in charge, only swearing loyalty to the English crown (basically they are trading a local tyrrany for a distant abstract king, its a really good deal). They will only be required to trade with the English and to give up human sacrifices (actually, we'll probably work out some events that are acceptable to the Haustec where at least their leader converts to Christianity....through the clever tongue of the enigmatic Brother John...he'll equate Quetzalcoatl to Christ and argue too that the Sacrifice of the Son of God on the Cross has made all other sacrifice superfluous....)

We promise to wear clothes, lol, and I like the Sacrifice thing too. But rather that these people only sacrificed one person. One person is reasonable, not thousands a year. It wasn't so bad when the Aztecs were far away, we'd raid a neighboring tribe for slaves and send them as substitutes. Now the Aztecs are right next door. We can't do much worse with these curious white skinned traders, than the current predicament.

[AJNolte]

That, or something like it, could certainly be arranged....:rolleyes:



True, but I'm feeling like taking commentary.



Calvin born waaay after POD, so no Calvin. Feel free to give birth to a Calvin Clone.:D

Calvin cloan sounds like Calvin Klein to me for some reason, so I toyed with naming him Klein. Alas, I think that name would be a bit ASB.

As for Zwingli: I'd wait to see what pans out at the council. If there is a broader reformation, I could see Zwingli playing a larger role in it. If not, he might not turn out to be that important; perhaps just a regional reformer.

His ideas were kind of like much of the modern reformed church, so if you really don't know what to do with him you could always exile him to Navarre.

[Keenir]

A hunting accident? <g>

did he joust?

He and Wettin are not going to get along; Zwingli was considerably more radical on transsubstantiation issues (Wettin hasn't even questioned that one actually) and was into theocracy.

might Zwingli's works get Wettin to return to the fold, as far as Catholocism is concerned?

(even if its just a "things in the Church are bad, but Zwingli is worse")

[AJNolte]

did he joust?



might Zwingli's works get Wettin to return to the fold, as far as Catholocism is concerned?

(even if its just a "things in the Church are bad, but Zwingli is worse")

Like Luther, Wettin hasn't left the fold; the question is, will he be excommunicated? It's possible the church will agree with a fair number of his ideas and not excommunicate him. Or they might not. Or things could go in an entirely different direction. But if the church excommunicates him it's going to have to resind the excommunication to get Wettin back.

[Glen]

Just to mention where the English have trading posts or waystations in Norasia by the 1520s:

Newfoundland (seasonal fishing camps only)
Quebec City
Montreal
Halifax
Manhattan
Norfolk/Jamestown
Baltimore
Miami
New Orleans
Veracruz
Panama (furthest extent of English Activity)

Note that some of these sites are more active then others. Some are little more than watering and repair stops only manned from Spring to Fall. Others are important sites of trade and are starting to form small nuclei of settlements about them, mostly in the North and Veracruz.

The English are sticking for this period to a strict coastal route along North America. They do not have any stake in the Caribbean as of this time. Nor have they established anything in South America, though they do have its Eastern Coastline fairly well mapped due to the Cabot expeditions.

[Glen]

did he joust?

No, he wasn't of noble birth.

[Tom Veil]

Just to mention where the English have trading posts or waystations in Norasia by the 1520s:
***
Baltimore
***

When is the Baltimore waystation built? The Susquehanna have a port on the Chesapeake at Conowingo, Maryland (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Conowingo%2C_Maryland&redirect=no), which will grow much faster if they have a new trading partner a few miles down the bay.

[Glen]

When is the Baltimore waystation built? The Susquehanna have a port on the Chesapeake at Conowingo, Maryland (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Conowingo%2C_Maryland&redirect=no), which will grow much faster if they have a new trading partner a few miles down the bay.

The Baltimore site is meant to be a trading post, actually. It would have been established sometime in the early 1500 period.

The site at the mouth of the Chesapeake (still not certain whether to put it on the peninsula or around Jamestown) is more a weystation/choke point.

[Tom Veil]

Good. Susquehanna will trade at Baltimore and ignore the Jamestown station. From what I know (based more on my travels to the region than anything else), Jamestown is the better side for a naval base and the peninsula is the better side for a colony. Of course Rameiro as Powhatan has some say in where you put it.

[Smaug]

Just to mention where the English have trading posts or waystations in Norasia by the 1520s:

Newfoundland (seasonal fishing camps only)
Quebec City
Montreal
Halifax
Manhattan
Norfolk/Jamestown
Baltimore
Miami
New Orleans
Veracruz
Panama (furthest extent of English Activity)

Note that some of these sites are more active then others. Some are little more than watering and repair stops only manned from Spring to Fall. Others are important sites of trade and are starting to form small nuclei of settlements about them, mostly in the North and Veracruz.

The English are sticking for this period to a strict coastal route along North America. They do not have any stake in the Caribbean as of this time. Nor have they established anything in South America, though they do have its Eastern Coastline fairly well mapped due to the Cabot expeditions.

Vera Cruz? Do tell :)

[Aussey]

I'll agree to more Portugese interaction voluntarily in Africa, if it is alright that I play as France, unless someone else has...I've been away a bit lately
:)

[Keenir]

I'll agree to more Portugese interaction voluntarily in Africa, if it is alright that I play as France, unless someone else has...I've been away a bit lately
:)

I'd be willing to collaborate with you on France...or to hand it over at the end of the present dynasty.

(or both)


ps: Welcome Back.

[General_Paul]

Alright everyone, these are my tenative plans for the Ming Empire's Foreign Policy for the 1521-30 period:

1) Private Businesses:

-The Xiao Trading Company's trading post @ Peaceful Coast on Sri Lanka is going to expand dramatically to handle the rising amount of government and private trading going to and from India into Chinese ports.
-The Xiao outpost @ OTL Durban Harbor is going to also expand given the large amount of trading opportunities for the Xiao and their future competitors in the region for handling trade to the Europeans who, god willing, will take my cheaply produced goods so I can make a tidy profit! :D ;)
-The "Shipping Wars" between the private shipping companies over control of the Malacca Straits are going to heat up dramatically over the next few years, given the amount of business that shipping companies have had since the 1498 Business Compact. And, we all know what happens when profits skyrocket and firearms and other weapons are easily accessible.
-Finally, the private shipping cooperatives are going to start looking into possibly sailing north, around the frozen wastelands of Sebir (Siberia), so that they can go the very, VERY, long way around the Malacca Straits to get directly to the European and Indian ports. Maybe they'll pull an Isabella and Ferdinand and tell their ship captains to sail east to get to the Europeans, stranger things have occurred.

-Let me know if the private business int'l events sound too...farfetched

[Keenir]

my thoughts for the Uighurs for the 1520-1540 period (just in case it sounds too fast for just one decade)...

1) The gradual (re)-unification of the Uighur tribes.
2) Petitioning the Emperor of China for the Uighur to resume the role they had once held back in the T'ang Dynasty: that of the defenders of China and the borders.
3) the Uighurs try conquering Korea (and this is the one I'm least sure of; maybe if the Emperor brushes them off, they do it to prove their mettle)


thoughts?

[Psychomeltdown]

Alright everyone, these are my tenative plans for the Ming Empire's Foreign Policy for the 1521-30 period:

1) Private Businesses:

-The Xiao Trading Company's trading post @ Peaceful Coast on Sri Lanka is going to expand dramatically to handle the rising amount of government and private trading going to and from India into Chinese ports.
-The Xiao outpost @ OTL Durban Harbor is going to also expand given the large amount of trading opportunities for the Xiao and their future competitors in the region for handling trade to the Europeans who, god willing, will take my cheaply produced goods so I can make a tidy profit! :D ;)
-The "Shipping Wars" between the private shipping companies over control of the Malacca Straits are going to heat up dramatically over the next few years, given the amount of business that shipping companies have had since the 1498 Business Compact. And, we all know what happens when profits skyrocket and firearms and other weapons are easily accessible.
-Finally, the private shipping cooperatives are going to start looking into possibly sailing north, around the frozen wastelands of Sebir (Siberia), so that they can go the very, VERY, long way around the Malacca Straits to get directly to the European and Indian ports. Maybe they'll pull an Isabella and Ferdinand and tell their ship captains to sail east to get to the Europeans, stranger things have occurred.

-Let me know if the private business int'l events sound too...farfetched

Portuguese will be handling anything that comes out of India, or they want to anyway.

Malacca is falling to the Portuguese in about 1510, de Almeida and son will be launching an attack upon it. therefore you'll have to take Portugal's presence into account, plus they'll be hunting for the Spice Islands as they did in OTL.

Though if it's in their best interests the Ports will be willing to help out whomever side of the Shipping Wars, but you'll have to realize it'll be a constantly shifting one, backing up who ever is a middling power against a larger power. Destabilizing other country's shipping and trading ships is the best way to keep them from overwhelming.

Once Malacca is secure, the Chinese will be getting Portuguese visitors beginning in about 1512 or so. They'll be exploring up and down the coast, I'm hoping to also do a reverse Around the World trip, Lorenco De Almeida and several ships going to China, Japan, Alaska, West Coast, US, and all the back back down to the Diaz Straits (Straits of Magellan), and back to Portugal. (1512-1515)

The Ports have nothing against China, but they do have a great dislike for Muslims in general, therefore they'll be willing to allow Chinese traders into Malacca in return for the continued disruption of the Sultans in the area.

But if there is war in Europe, then who knows how things will turn out...

[marl_d]

Once Malacca is secure, the Chinese will be getting Portuguese visitors beginning in about 1512 or so. They'll be exploring up and down the coast, I'm hoping to also do a reverse Around the World trip, Lorenco De Almeida and several ships going to China, Japan, Alaska, West Coast, US, and all the back back down to the Diaz Straits (Straits of Magellan), and back to Portugal. (1512-1515)


why would an explorer go that far north? Alaska wasn't even discovered in OTL until 1741. If anything it would be more prudent to go south to Australia or just the South Pacific in general and across to the Americas, and then up the west coast...but i don't see doing that in the early 1500's, especially with a possible war. I know Portugal is a powerful Maritime nation, but discovering a largely useless area 200+ years early is pushing it.

[General_Paul]

Portuguese will be handling anything that comes out of India, or they want to anyway.

Malacca is falling to the Portuguese in about 1510, de Almeida and son will be launching an attack upon it. therefore you'll have to take Portugal's presence into account, plus they'll be hunting for the Spice Islands as they did in OTL.

Though if it's in their best interests the Ports will be willing to help out whomever side of the Shipping Wars, but you'll have to realize it'll be a constantly shifting one, backing up who ever is a middling power against a larger power. Destabilizing other country's shipping and trading ships is the best way to keep them from overwhelming.

Once Malacca is secure, the Chinese will be getting Portuguese visitors beginning in about 1512 or so. They'll be exploring up and down the coast, I'm hoping to also do a reverse Around the World trip, Lorenco De Almeida and several ships going to China, Japan, Alaska, West Coast, US, and all the back back down to the Diaz Straits (Straits of Magellan), and back to Portugal. (1512-1515)

The Ports have nothing against China, but they do have a great dislike for Muslims in general, therefore they'll be willing to allow Chinese traders into Malacca in return for the continued disruption of the Sultans in the area.

But if there is war in Europe, then who knows how things will turn out...

Hey Psycho,

The Portuguese events for East Asia sound pretty well in line with the OTL line of events for the Portuguese. Thus, I think that I'll probably lay off the entirety of the planned Private events for the time being. I'll tell you though, the Xiao won't be too thrilled with having to deal with a bunch of Portuguese middle men, but they won't do too much thanks to the shipping wars in effect.

While the Portuguese will be willing to allow the Chinese traders into the area and by 1512 I'll be getting Portuguese explorers, don't expect to be getting Macao any time soon. The Hongzhi Emperor's not a big fan of handing over sovereign territory to Western imperialists, but he'd be more than happy to receive your envoys @ the imperial palace in Beijing.

[Aussey]

I'd be willing to collaborate with you on France...or to hand it over at the end of the present dynasty.

(or both)


ps: Welcome Back.

At the end of the Valois-Orléans? Because personally Francis I of the Valois-Angoulême is one of my favorite historical figures, that's why I had such an interest...

[Glen]

Anne of Brittany is going to be a point of contention between France and the Holy Roman Empire.

[Glen]

my thoughts for the Uighurs for the 1520-1540 period (just in case it sounds too fast for just one decade)...

1) The gradual (re)-unification of the Uighur tribes.
2) Petitioning the Emperor of China for the Uighur to resume the role they had once held back in the T'ang Dynasty: that of the defenders of China and the borders.

Above two seem fine.


3) the Uighurs try conquering Korea (and this is the one I'm least sure of; maybe if the Emperor brushes them off, they do it to prove their mettle)

thoughts?

Unlikely. The Ming have conquered the Manchus IIRC and that cuts off your access to Korea, which is traditionally in the Chinese sphere of interest anyway. I'd stay away from this one.

[General_Paul]

my thoughts for the Uighurs for the 1520-1540 period (just in case it sounds too fast for just one decade)...

1) The gradual (re)-unification of the Uighur tribes.
2) Petitioning the Emperor of China for the Uighur to resume the role they had once held back in the T'ang Dynasty: that of the defenders of China and the borders.
3) the Uighurs try conquering Korea (and this is the one I'm least sure of; maybe if the Emperor brushes them off, they do it to prove their mettle)


thoughts?

Hey Keenir,

I'll drop in my 2 cents worth on these ideas:

1) Reunification of the Uighur tribes sounds good to me, just remember that I have yet to post my 1502-20 ideas for the Chagatai Khanate and the rest of the other Central Asian empires and they'll be a point of contention, that's for sure.

2) While the emperor will hear your petition, the Uighur won't be turning into the defenders of China or the Chinese borders. If they're willing to swear oaths of allegiance, the Hongzhi Emperor will allow them to enter into the Empire of China and join the Chinese armed forces, perhaps even allowing them to form their own military corps, under the close supervision of Han Chinese officers of course, but the Uighur won't be the sole defenders of the Chinese borderlands. That's one lesson that the Ming Dynasty has learned from history.

3) Have fun trying to break through the dozens of military outposts on the Ming border, then moving thousands of men through the heartland of the Empire of China while hundreds of thousands of settlers and military corps are moving north to support the colonization of Manchuria, then breaking through the hundreds of thousands of troops stationed in Duoyan and Southern Manchuria working to suppress any possible Manchu revolts, and finally invading Korea, which is little more than a satellite of China.

[Keenir]

Hey Keenir,

hi.

I'll drop in my 2 cents worth on these ideas:

1) Reunification of the Uighur tribes sounds good to me, just remember that I have yet to post my 1502-20 ideas for the Chagatai Khanate and the rest of the other Central Asian empires and they'll be a point of contention, that's for sure.

we'll see.

2) While the emperor will hear your petition, the Uighur won't be turning into the defenders of China or the Chinese borders.
but the Uighur won't be the sole defenders of the Chinese borderlands. That's one lesson that the Ming Dynasty has learned from history.

they did okay in the T'ang era.
*shrugs*

3) Have fun trying to break through the dozens of military outposts on the Ming border, then moving thousands of men through the heartland of the Empire of China while hundreds of thousands of settlers and military corps are moving north to support the colonization of Manchuria, then breaking through the hundreds of thousands of troops stationed in Duoyan and Southern Manchuria working to suppress any possible Manchu revolts, and finally invading Korea, which is little more than a satellite of China.

well, it was just an idea...mostly functioning to 1. prove their loyalty to China (conquering and pacifying a state for the holder of the Mandate of Heaven), and 2. a little project to demonstrate what they can do.

[Glen]

I've posted a bit of a start to the Scottish events. So far they are following much like OTL in development internally except without the border wars with England, which is much to their benefit.

Given less border war and the English enthusiasm for Norasia, the Scottish decide to join in on the action and compete, setting up two outposts in the New World.

Someone also gets the clever idea to try for a Northeast Passage, leading by 1530 to the very beginnings of a Scottish - Muscovite trade route.

I would like the approval of the France, Lowlands, and Muscovy players for some of the comments I make with regards to their nations thus far (namely fur trade through the Dutch and French, making contact with the Muscovites on a trade route).

See the 1493 Scotland Thread for the draft events.

[Aussey]

What is the possibility of Europeans finding gold in California and South Africa, say, around the 1530s-1550s?

[Glen]

What is the possibility of Europeans finding gold in California and South Africa, say, around the 1530s-1550s?

None. Absolutely none.

[Glen]

Gosh, I'm running ragged trying to do oversight of the new submissions and getting back to editing the timeline with all the edits and retro changes that I don't have time to write much for myself.

Just to keep people in the loop.

The English cum Anglo-British will eventually succeed in building a road and waystations in Panama probably sometime in the late 1510s-early 1520s. They will use West Africans bought from the Slave Coast then given essentially their freedom in return for settling and working on building up the Panamanian road portage system. This will be for transporting goods between the Atlantic and Pacific, so that the English can also start their own trade with the East. I have a rather complex story about these 'Black English' but no time to write it all down at the moment.

We will establish the Galapagos, Easter Island, and Tahitian Islands as stops in the Pacific.

The Totonac will rule over the former Aztec Empire, and this will become the most important economic part of the New World Anglo-British Empire. The Haustec will be a rather quaint protectorate of the Empire, important to a degree but overshadowed by the Totonac.

The English are unlikely to go very far up the Pacific Coast of North America anytime soon, though that will happen eventually. I know Aussey is looking for the French to make a mark there, but that seems a stretch this early in the timeline (Not to mention it is likely to go broke, West Coast fur trade competing against East Coast fur trade? The English have much much shorter lines of transportation to get their product to market, and more advanced groups to do a lot of their trapping for them.), we're basically talking about them making a move to the West Coast two hundred years before OTL at least.

[Tom Veil]

(Not to mention it is likely to go broke, West Coast fur trade competing against East Coast fur trade? The English have much much shorter lines of transportation to get their product to market, and more advanced groups to do a lot of their trapping for them.)

There also isn't nearly as much fur on the west coast. Few places on earth are as teeming with wildlife as the eastern seaboard from Maryland to Newfoundland in the days before the settlers started wiping it all out, whereas the Pacific coast has big chunks of desert.

[Atom]

Wait, if the British are going to be in the galpagos, and around the Gulf of Panama, your bound to meet the Incas, because were advancing into Colombia (badly) and actually have some boats (nothing like yours) so It would be nice if you could put out your position on us.

[marl_d]

The English are unlikely to go very far up the Pacific Coast of North America anytime soon, though that will happen eventually. I know Aussey is looking for the French to make a mark there, but that seems a stretch this early in the timeline (Not to mention it is likely to go broke, West Coast fur trade competing against East Coast fur trade? The English have much much shorter lines of transportation to get their product to market, and more advanced groups to do a lot of their trapping for them.), we're basically talking about them making a move to the West Coast two hundred years before OTL at least.

when Psyco mentioned something about going up into Alaska and North-Western Canada i thought it was fairly implausible, seeing as that area wasn't discovered until the 1740's. personally unless there is something significant up there i wouldn't send any expedtions that far north till within a couple of decades of OTL...most explorers stayed south due to the weather factor and nothing else being there. heck the Hawaiian Islands weren't discovered until the 1750's themselves....but thats just me

[Atom]

when Psyco mentioned something about going up into Alaska and North-Western Canada i thought it was fairly implausible, seeing as that area wasn't discovered until the 1740's. personally unless there is something significant up there i wouldn't send any expedtions that far north till within a couple of decades of OTL...most explorers stayed south due to the weather factor and nothing else being there. heck the Hawaiian Islands weren't discovered until the 1750's themselves....but thats just me
I agree, with marl-d.
Hey that rhymes.

[Aussey]

In OTL, Francis I established trade with India.
So in the 1520's, the French Indochina Company will form, except, ITTL, they will be looking for Siam, and trade with Siam.
so...who plays the Siamese?

Also, the French will establish themselves a fort on the Guinea coast, so as to start the conquest of the Mali empire.
I'm thinking, with N. America full, France will start earlier colonization and incorporation of Africa. I've been reading on Algiers, and I suppose the early 1500s would be a prime time to conquer it...but most of Europe seems buiddy-buddy with the Ottomans, so I'm not going for North Africa right now...

and Glen...I think I'll have someone sail up and down the western coast of America, but, you're right. fur trade there would be useless compared to yours. so, i'm looking else where for glory and riches.

[AJNolte]

In OTL, Francis I established trade with India.
So in the 1520's, the French East India Company will form, except, ITTL, they will be looking for Siam, and trade with Siam.
so...who plays the Siamese?

Also, the French will establish themselves a fort on the Guinea coast, so as to start the conquest of the Mali empire.
I'm thinking, with N. America full, France will start earlier colonization and incorporation of Africa. I've been reading on Algiers, and I suppose the early 1500s would be a prime time to conquer it...but most of Europe seems buiddy-buddy with the Ottomans, so I'm not going for North Africa right now...

and Glen...I think I'll have someone sail up and down the western coast of America, but, you're right. fur trade there would be useless compared to yours. and so, i'm upping my trip to the western coast to 1529...i'll write that up later.

French East India Company eh?

Could you PM me?

[Aussey]

1521-1525: Wealthy citizens of Bordeaux, hearing of great trade with the east, form the La Compagnie française de Indochine, the French Indochina Company. The main purpose of the company was to establish trade and monopolize the trade with the Siamese empire. The ships land in Siam in 1522, and they are well recieved in the Ayutthaya court*. Upon return with diplomatic promises of trade and friendship, one Frenchmen remarked the size and wealth of the Siamese capital with that of Paris! ** The tales of the splendor of Indochina quickly led to more investment in the company, followed by a second visit in 1524.



[[THERE WILL BE A HUGE EUROPEAN EVENT HAPPENING IN THIS TIME PERIOD BETWEEN 1520 AND 1528]]


1526: Henri-Philippe du Penn-ar-Bed, a Breton favorite of the Queen-Regent, proposes to King Charles IX to potential in the "conquering, conversion, and incorporation of the wealthy Manding empire of Africa." The idea gains quick popularity amongst the court and the King himself- all jealous of the vast new empires of the English, Portugese, Spaniards, and even the Neapolitans. Preparations for invasion began, and peasants were promised vast estates in the lands of the mythic, Moorish "Quivira and Cíbola," more commonly known in France as the "Villes d'Ors." Peasants and noblemen alike joined the army and began preparation for invasion.

1527-1530: While the entire nations was preparing for a crusade of sorts, for the honor and glory of the Holy Trinity and France, many Parisian merchants were still convinced the King’s great dream, of colonizing Norasia’s western coast. Many were dismayed to learn of the great distance, however, these merchants were not. They were led by the recently created Duke of Guise, who wished to counter the Portuguese presence in Lower Norasia. With the King’s grant, the Duke of Guise and his followers founded the La Compagnie française du Bas-Norasie, French Lower Norasia Company. A group of ships departed with some merchants, sailors, soldiers, and trade supplies to find whether or not civilization existed on the western coast of Lower Norasia. The expedition took off in the spring, and after stopping on the northeastern coast of Lower Norasia ***, they stopped again in the southern cone, restocked by trading with Natives, and sailed north again, until the reached what they were searching for- a large native empire.

Meanwhile, in the Old World, in the summer of 1528, the French launched their massive invasion of the Manding empire, attacking in from the Guinea coast, and conquering up the main bloodline of the empire, the Niger River. Due to the recent dynastic troubles, the French were able to ally with many pretender dynasties, and thus allied with many of the chieftains, finally conquering the great city of Tombouctou in 1529. The French allied themselves with the Manding’s great enemy, the ever growing Songhai, and were finally able to take the empire.The French conquerors executed both claimants to the throne, those who claimed to be Mansa Mahmud II and III. The French conquerors stayed, and carved up viceroyalties within the empire. The Songhai were kept at bay as quasi allies, for the time being. The leader of the expedition, Henri-Philippe du Penn-ar-Bed, returned with the Manding crown and vast treasures of gold and copper and such, and Charles IX humbly accepted the title “Emperor of Mali and the Negroes,” declaring his realm to be an empire, in the same sorts the English had. He also declared himself equal to the Holy Roman Emperor in precedence. Many peasants went to Africa upon du Penn-ar-Bed’s return to Tombouctou. Missions were set up, and the problem of the European Catholics ruling this African Muslim empire soon arose.

Meanwhile, in Lower Norasia, the French gained the profitable trade with the Incas, trading French made guns and swords for the treasures of the Inca.




*In OTL, the French were well recieved at this Court...
**In OTL, a Frenchmen returning from Siam said this of Siam...
***The Guyanas region...

[Keenir]

[[THERE WILL BE A HUGE EUROPEAN EVENT HAPPENING IN THIS TIME PERIOD BETWEEN 1520 AND 1528]]


since you cancelled everything I did, that means that France is still allied to the Ottomans.

[Glen]

I agree. The Pacific Northwest is just too big a stretch for these early decades. If things keep going as they are, I might be induced to believing we have earlier exploration of it than OTL, perhaps even a century earlier, but two centuries is a bit of a stretch unless something happens to significantly change that.

FYI, the English cum Anglo-British are CLAIMING all of Norasia (Continental North America) under their protection, but that's a far cry from COLONIZING, ENFORCING, or even EXPLORING all of North America. Just so we all understand each other. The Spanish did similar, though you can see that the theory and the practice did not always equate OTL.

There also isn't nearly as much fur on the west coast. Few places on earth are as teeming with wildlife as the eastern seaboard from Maryland to Newfoundland in the days before the settlers started wiping it all out, whereas the Pacific coast has big chunks of desert.

when Psyco mentioned something about going up into Alaska and North-Western Canada i thought it was fairly implausible, seeing as that area wasn't discovered until the 1740's. personally unless there is something significant up there i wouldn't send any expedtions that far north till within a couple of decades of OTL...most explorers stayed south due to the weather factor and nothing else being there. heck the Hawaiian Islands weren't discovered until the 1750's themselves....but thats just me

I agree, with marl-d.
Hey that rhymes.

In OTL, Francis I established trade with India.
So in the 1520's, the French Indochina Company will form, except, ITTL, they will be looking for Siam, and trade with Siam.
so...who plays the Siamese?

Also, the French will establish themselves a fort on the Guinea coast, so as to start the conquest of the Mali empire.
I'm thinking, with N. America full, France will start earlier colonization and incorporation of Africa. I've been reading on Algiers, and I suppose the early 1500s would be a prime time to conquer it...but most of Europe seems buiddy-buddy with the Ottomans, so I'm not going for North Africa right now...

and Glen...I think I'll have someone sail up and down the western coast of America, but, you're right. fur trade there would be useless compared to yours. so, i'm looking else where for glory and riches.

[Tom Veil]

I agree. The Pacific Northwest is just too big a stretch for these early decades. If things keep going as they are, I might be induced to believing we have earlier exploration of it than OTL, perhaps even a century earlier, but two centuries is a bit of a stretch unless something happens to significantly change that.

FYI, the English cum Anglo-British are CLAIMING all of Norasia (Continental North America) under their protection, but that's a far cry from COLONIZING, ENFORCING, or even EXPLORING all of North America. Just so we all understand each other. The Spanish did similar, though you can see that the theory and the practice did not always equate OTL.

Indeed, it would be entirely in keeping with the times for everyone from the French to the Swedes to show a total lack of respect for English claims and try to set up colonies and trading posts right in the heart of English "Norasia".

[Keenir]

I'm thinking, with N. America full, France will start earlier colonization and incorporation of Africa.

how're you going to avoid the diseases?

I've been reading on Algiers, and I suppose the early 1500s would be a prime time to conquer it...but most of Europe seems buiddy-buddy with the Ottomans, so I'm not going for North Africa right now...

why not? I'm trying to avoid getting tangled up with North Africa....and France is the Ottomans' historical ally.

[Glen]

1521-1525: Wealthy citizens of Bordeaux, hearing of great trade with the east, form the La Compagnie française de Indochine, the French Indochina Company. The main purpose of the company was to establish trade and monopolize the trade with the Siamese empire. The ships land in Siam in 1522, and they are well recieved in the Ayutthaya court*. Upon return with diplomatic promises of trade and friendship, one Frenchmen remarked the size and wealth of the Siamese capital with that of Paris! ** The tales of the splendor of Indochina quickly led to more investment in the company, followed by a second visit in 1524.

Couple quick questions.

1) What was the route taken, where did your ships stop along the way?

2) Why Bordeaux? Was there anything in OTL that would indicate a possible interest in such a thing in this region in this time?

3) When did the term 'Indochina' come into use? Was it in use or likely to be created in the 1500s?

4) Why are they targeting Siam from the onset? What prompted this? I'd suggest having them go for the Indies, find Siam receptive and THEN have them decide to focus on trade there.


[[THERE WILL BE A HUGE EUROPEAN EVENT HAPPENING IN THIS TIME PERIOD BETWEEN 1520 AND 1528]]

Might I suggest you PM me with this?


1526: Henri-Philippe du Penn-ar-Bed,

Is this an OTL person?

a Breton favorite of the Queen-Regent, proposes to King Charles IX to potential in the "conquering, conversion, and incorporation of the wealthy Manding empire of Africa." The idea gains quick popularity amongst the court and the King himself- all jealous of the vast new empires of the English, Portugese, Spaniards, and even the Neapolitans. Preparations for invasion began, and peasants were promised vast estates in the lands of the mythic, Moorish "Quivira and Cíbola," more commonly known in France as the "Villes d'Ors." Peasants and noblemen alike joined the army and began preparation for invasion.

Why are they targeting the Manding in particular? What have they heard about them and from where? Also, note that the English, Spanish and Neapolitans don't really have VAST empires, just some good trade posts (granted, the English are claiming a potentially VAST empire, so there's that.

The Portuguese, on the otherhand, are starting to look like a true Empire.


1527-1530: While the entire nations was preparing for a crusade of sorts, for the honor and glory of the Holy Trinity and France, many Parisian merchants were still convinced the King’s great dream, of colonizing Norasia’s western coast. Many were dismayed to learn of the great distance, however, these merchants were not. They were led by the recently created Duke of Guise, who wished to counter the Portuguese presence in Lower Norasia. With the King’s grant, the Duke of Guise and his followers founded the La Compagnie française du Bas-Norasie, French Lower Norasia Company. A group of ships departed with some merchants, sailors, soldiers, and trade supplies to find whether or not civilization existed on the western coast of Lower Norasia. The expedition took off in the spring, and after stopping on the northeastern coast of Lower Norasia ***, they stopped again in the southern cone, restocked by trading with Natives, and sailed north again, until the reached what they were searching for- a large native empire.

First....gotta say, I kinda like 'Lower Norasia' for South America. Maybe have some French start making maps showing 'Lower Norasia' and 'Upper Norasia'. Should make for some fun...

Second, get rid of all the Western Norasia stuff, its just not plausible in multiple opinions.

Third, going for Lower Norasia, on the other hand, certainly IS plausible, and doable. However, you are going to piss the Portuguese off royally. That's okay, but you should be aware of it.

Remove reference to LOOKING for the Inca. I would suggest rather that you FIND the Inca. Why would you find them....maybe you are looking to be able to hug the coast a ways further before embarking into the scary Arthurian sea, hoping for a shorter Blue Water course to Asia for landfall. This would be a potentially plausible reason for it, IMO.

However, I think you and Psychomeltdown need to talk about timings. He very well could have gotten there first (by going the Southern Route, NOT the Northern Route!), just not certain.

Fourth, the Southern Cone is rather sparse in population. Suggest you just do your best to restock on your own, with little help from the natives.


Meanwhile, in the Old World, in the summer of 1528, the French launched their massive invasion of the Manding empire, attacking in from the Guinea coast, and conquering up the main bloodline of the empire, the Niger River. Due to the recent dynastic troubles, the French were able to ally with many pretender dynasties, and thus allied with many of the chieftains, finally conquering the great city of Tombouctou in 1529. The French allied themselves with the Manding’s great enemy, the ever growing Songhai, and were finally able to take the empire.The French conquerors executed both claimants to the throne, those who claimed to be Mansa Mahmud II and III. The French conquerors stayed, and carved up viceroyalties within the empire. The Songhai were kept at bay as quasi allies, for the time being. The leader of the expedition, Henri-Philippe du Penn-ar-Bed, returned with the Manding crown and vast treasures of gold and copper and such, and Charles IX humbly accepted the title “Emperor of Mali and the Negroes,” declaring his realm to be an empire, in the same sorts the English had. He also declared himself equal to the Holy Roman Emperor in precedence. Many peasants went to Africa upon du Penn-ar-Bed’s return to Tombouctou. Missions were set up, and the problem of the European Catholics ruling this African Muslim empire soon arose.

I forget, do we have any participants in that region? What do others think of this event? Seems possible to me on the face of it, but we might need to do more research. Expect massive losses in your troops from disease.

Meanwhile, in Lower Norasia, the French gained the profitable trade with the Incas, trading French made guns and swords for the treasures of the Inca.

*In OTL, the French were well recieved at this Court...
**In OTL, a Frenchmen returning from Siam said this of Siam...
***The Guyanas region...

Need to work on a series of events with the Incan participant, not just this toss-off line.

[AJNolte]

I'd like to unify the Hospitaler and Teutonic orders around 1530. Does anyone have either:
1. Plausibility objections.
2. Suggestions as to how this can be done?

Thanks.

[Glen]

I'd like to unify the Hospitaler and Teutonic orders around 1530. Does anyone have either:
1. Plausibility objections.
2. Suggestions as to how this can be done?

Thanks.

Well, I have a few comments.

First, the Teutonics and the Hansa have become rather entangled. Do you intend to disentangle them before trying to merge?

Second, 1530 will be too early with the way events are currently portrayed. You'll have to do some retro events to set the stage.

Third, the most plausible way is to have one or the other order suffer a rather significant setback, allowing the other order to absorb the remnants. Which parent order do you want the subsequent order to resemble? The other one should be the one to face the misfortune.

[AJNolte]

Well, I have a few comments.

First, the Teutonics and the Hansa have become rather entangled. Do you intend to disentangle them before trying to merge?

Second, 1530 will be too early with the way events are currently portrayed. You'll have to do some retro events to set the stage.

Third, the most plausible way is to have one or the other order suffer a rather significant setback, allowing the other order to absorb the remnants. Which parent order do you want the subsequent order to resemble? The other one should be the one to face the misfortune.

What I'm actually thinking is that a fragment (maybe half) of the Teutonic order decides that they've become too entangled with the Hansa and their worldly concerns, and they need to get back to the crusader ideal. They split (amicably as far as the Hansa is concerned) and, when John Wettin becomes grand master of the Hospitalers after Docwra's death (1529 or 30), the breakaway Teutonics vote to join the Lang of Germany in the Hospitaler order You'll recall that John Wettin is Elector Frederick's brother, who joined the then KoRs while on pilgrimage in 1500 or so..

Does this sound plausible?

[Glen]

Indeed, it would be entirely in keeping with the times for everyone from the French to the Swedes to show a total lack of respect for English claims and try to set up colonies and trading posts right in the heart of English "Norasia".

Well, depends what you mean by 'heart'. If they try to settle too close to our active trading posts and waystations, there will be friction that could very well escalate over time. If they give us a good few hundred miles leeway, well, its a big friggin' place, ya know?;):cool:

But yeah. The point I've tried to make is that the English, getting there first, take the (from a 16th century perspective) best locations for trade posts, but there are others that might be worth someone's time.

Note that I believe that we have Scots in Boston and Wilmington, French in Jacksonville (FL), Spanish and Neapolitans in St Augustine (FL), and Neapolitans in the Yucatan (eventually).

[Glen]

how're you going to avoid the diseases?

They're not. I expect the French to die in droves. However, if Aussey throws a major expedition at it, they can pull it off probably.

why not? I'm trying to avoid getting tangled up with North Africa....and France is the Ottomans' historical ally.

Perhaps Aussey doesn't realize that as of yet, the Ottomans have no claims in the Maghreb.

[Glen]

What I'm actually thinking is that a fragment (maybe half) of the Teutonic order decides that they've become too entangled with the Hansa and their worldly concerns, and they need to get back to the crusader ideal. They split (amicably as far as the Hansa is concerned) and, when John Wettin becomes grand master of the Hospitalers after Docwra's death (1529 or 30), the breakaway Teutonics vote to join the Lang of Germany in the Hospitaler order You'll recall that John Wettin is Elector Frederick's brother, who joined the then KoRs while on pilgrimage in 1500 or so..

Does this sound plausible?

So....maybe you do this....the Teutonics decide to go secular due to their increasing worldliness (involvement with the Hansa), with a major faction of them deciding to reject this and instead dissociating themselves from the Teutonics and joining the Hospitalers.

[AJNolte]

So....maybe you do this....the Teutonics decide to go secular due to their increasing worldliness (involvement with the Hansa), with a major faction of them deciding to reject this and instead dissociating themselves from the Teutonics and joining the Hospitalers.
Or I might, depending on how the reformation goes, have a majority of the order go Wettinite with the half or so which doesn't joining the Hospitalers. This might be an easier jump than straight-out secularization.

[AJNolte]

I'm planning to have the Wendish Federation consolidate it's position along the Baltic and in the remnants of Teutonic Prussia with the creation of a more permanent senate and chancellor. I may have them change their name to the Hanseatic and Teutonic Federation. Any objections to this on plausibility grounds?
The rest of the Hansa, Saxony and Mechlenburg events are going to depend on the reformation.
I forgot to ask: who are Mechlenburg's neighbors?

[Keenir]

I'm planning to have the Wendish Federation consolidate it's position along the Baltic and in the remnants of Teutonic Prussia with the creation of a more permanent senate and chancellor.

I'll ask it now, so you don't get asked after you work out great detail....where does northern Germany get a senate from?

[Smaug]

1521-1525: Wealthy citizens of Bordeaux, hearing of great trade with the east, form the La Compagnie française de Indochine, the French Indochina Company. The main purpose of the company was to establish trade and monopolize the trade with the Siamese empire. The ships land in Siam in 1522, and they are well recieved in the Ayutthaya court*. Upon return with diplomatic promises of trade and friendship, one Frenchmen remarked the size and wealth of the Siamese capital with that of Paris! ** The tales of the splendor of Indochina quickly led to more investment in the company, followed by a second visit in 1524.



[[THERE WILL BE A HUGE EUROPEAN EVENT HAPPENING IN THIS TIME PERIOD BETWEEN 1520 AND 1528]]


1526: Henri-Philippe du Penn-ar-Bed, a Breton favorite of the Queen-Regent, proposes to King Charles IX to potential in the "conquering, conversion, and incorporation of the wealthy Manding empire of Africa." The idea gains quick popularity amongst the court and the King himself- all jealous of the vast new empires of the English, Portugese, Spaniards, and even the Neapolitans. Preparations for invasion began, and peasants were promised vast estates in the lands of the mythic, Moorish "Quivira and Cíbola," more commonly known in France as the "Villes d'Ors." Peasants and noblemen alike joined the army and began preparation for invasion.

1527-1530: While the entire nations was preparing for a crusade of sorts, for the honor and glory of the Holy Trinity and France, many Parisian merchants were still convinced the King’s great dream, of colonizing Norasia’s western coast. Many were dismayed to learn of the great distance, however, these merchants were not. They were led by the recently created Duke of Guise, who wished to counter the Portuguese presence in Lower Norasia. With the King’s grant, the Duke of Guise and his followers founded the La Compagnie française du Bas-Norasie, French Lower Norasia Company. A group of ships departed with some merchants, sailors, soldiers, and trade supplies to find whether or not civilization existed on the western coast of Lower Norasia. The expedition took off in the spring, and after stopping on the northeastern coast of Lower Norasia ***, they stopped again in the southern cone, restocked by trading with Natives, and sailed north again, until the reached what they were searching for- a large native empire.

Meanwhile, in the Old World, in the summer of 1528, the French launched their massive invasion of the Manding empire, attacking in from the Guinea coast, and conquering up the main bloodline of the empire, the Niger River. Due to the recent dynastic troubles, the French were able to ally with many pretender dynasties, and thus allied with many of the chieftains, finally conquering the great city of Tombouctou in 1529. The French allied themselves with the Manding’s great enemy, the ever growing Songhai, and were finally able to take the empire.The French conquerors executed both claimants to the throne, those who claimed to be Mansa Mahmud II and III. The French conquerors stayed, and carved up viceroyalties within the empire. The Songhai were kept at bay as quasi allies, for the time being. The leader of the expedition, Henri-Philippe du Penn-ar-Bed, returned with the Manding crown and vast treasures of gold and copper and such, and Charles IX humbly accepted the title “Emperor of Mali and the Negroes,” declaring his realm to be an empire, in the same sorts the English had. He also declared himself equal to the Holy Roman Emperor in precedence. Many peasants went to Africa upon du Penn-ar-Bed’s return to Tombouctou. Missions were set up, and the problem of the European Catholics ruling this African Muslim empire soon arose.

Meanwhile, in Lower Norasia, the French gained the profitable trade with the Incas, trading French made guns and swords for the treasures of the Inca.




*In OTL, the French were well recieved at this Court...
**In OTL, a Frenchmen returning from Siam said this of Siam...
***The Guyanas region...

The Kindom of Benin, and the Oyo and Aro have interests in the region.

If you expect a walk in the park, you're wrong. I don't appreciate the way Europeans have expected to walk into Africa, with a mind to shooing away any natives. I have a powerful state, and won't be treated like some savage nation, that craves a well intentioned nanny.:(

[Glen]

I'm planning to have the Wendish Federation consolidate it's position along the Baltic and in the remnants of Teutonic Prussia with the creation of a more permanent senate and chancellor. I may have them change their name to the Hanseatic and Teutonic Federation. Any objections to this on plausibility grounds?
The rest of the Hansa, Saxony and Mechlenburg events are going to depend on the reformation.
I forgot to ask: who are Mechlenburg's neighbors?

Try Hanseatic-Teutonic Federation.

[Glen]

The Kindom of Benin, and the Oyo and Aro have interests in the region.

If you expect a walk in the park, you're wrong. I don't appreciate the way Europeans have expected to walk into Africa, with a mind to shooing away any natives. I have a powerful state, and won't be treated like some savage nation, that craves a well intentioned nanny.:(

Well, some of them do (or rather, that's what their participants seem to think). But of course, that does not apply to Benin, or the Oyo and Aro.

I think Aussey's French can secure the Coastal areas, and claim the interior, though that's probably about the extent of it, a claim.

[Aussey]

1) What was the route taken, where did your ships stop along the way?

Around Africa. Though, since they are kinda upset with the Portugese for disrespecting the Pope, they didn't stop at any of their ports. I'd assume they stopped in places in Africa where there are still some Spanish and Italians just to resupply. And of course, somewhere were there are Ottomans.

2) Why Bordeaux? Was there anything in OTL that would indicate a possible interest in such a thing in this region in this time?

Bordeaux was the center of the spice/silk trade a century or so back, so that's why I thought it would be the most plausible city...

3) When did the term 'Indochina' come into use? Was it in use or likely to be created in the 1500s?

Good question. I tried looking up the word "Indochina," but I didn't find when it came into use.

4) Why are they targeting Siam from the onset? What prompted this? I'd suggest having them go for the Indies, find Siam receptive and THEN have them decide to focus on trade there.

Ah, I dunno. I just didn't want them tangled in India as per OTL. In OTL, the Siamese very much liked the French at this period of history, so, yeah. I like your idea of FINDING Siam, and GO FOR the East Indies...thanks :)

Is this an OTL person?

No, but from a real OTL wealthy Breton marining family from OTL. Took a lot of Googling, though, to find a family suitable...When can we actally come up with our own families and persons?

Why are they targeting the Manding in particular? What have they heard about them and from where?

The "Mali," "Mandin," or "Manding," empire has shown up on European maps since atleast the 1100s, and it was known to the Romans as "Mauretania." Most of their knowledge, though, came from their Ottoman allies. It is well known the Malians had vast amounts of gold, copper, and other "treasures."

Also, note that the English, Spanish and Neapolitans don't really have VAST empires, just some good trade posts (granted, the English are claiming a potentially VAST empire, so there's that.

Not yet atleast...but most of the main areas of interest are being settled, and I'm trying to keep France from getting involved with a lot of colonial European powers.

The Portuguese, on the otherhand, are starting to look like a true Empire.

True, true...

First....gotta say, I kinda like 'Lower Norasia' for South America. Maybe have some French start making maps showing 'Lower Norasia' and 'Upper Norasia'. Should make for some fun...

"Haut Norasie," and "Bas Norasie," (along with "Norasie d'Antarctique") are already appearing on French maps as region names. Usually "Nouvelle Monde," is wrote across North, Central, and South America.

Second, get rid of all the Western Norasia stuff, its just not plausible in multiple opinions.

Ok :)

Third, going for Lower Norasia, on the other hand, certainly IS plausible, and doable. However, you are going to piss the Portuguese off royally. That's okay, but you should be aware of it.

I am, I am.

Remove reference to LOOKING for the Inca. I would suggest rather that you FIND the Inca. Why would you find them....maybe you are looking to be able to hug the coast a ways further before embarking into the scary Arthurian sea, hoping for a shorter Blue Water course to Asia for landfall. This would be a potentially plausible reason for it, IMO.

Ok, and then we will just stay there, trade, and return to France.
good idea, thanks :)

However, I think you and Psychomeltdown need to talk about timings. He very well could have gotten there first (by going the Southern Route, NOT the Northern Route!), just not certain.

Uh, what northern route is there to the Incas? Anyways...I already PMed and talked with the Inca...they say they haven't recieved anything about coming in contact with any Europeans, and that they would be very receptive of the French.

Fourth, the Southern Cone is rather sparse in population. Suggest you just do your best to restock on your own, with little help from the natives.

Ok. Sparsely populated?
Has anyone settled in or even explored Argentina, specifically, Patagonia?

I forget, do we have any participants in that region? What do others think of this event? Seems possible to me on the face of it, but we might need to do more research. Expect massive losses in your troops from disease.

We have Benin, a bit to the south. But they were less powerful than even the Mali and Songhai empires. By allying with the Songhai, it was a shoe-win. Have our African empires conquer the innlands, and have us conquer the coastal lands, and the lands surronding the river, and the important river cities such as "Tombouctou."

Disease...I might add this is not subsaharan Africa. This is SAHARAN Africa. We're talking OTL Mauretania, Mali, southern Algeria, Upper Volta, the like...I don't think disease is AS WIDELY spread as we are thinking in terms of Africa.

Need to work on a series of events with the Incan participant, not just this toss-off line.

As I said, I already have the meeting with the Inca being friendly and trade going well negotiated with Atom.

since you cancelled everything I did, that means that France is still allied to the Ottomans.

And I intend on keeping it that way. That's why we might not go on fully forcing the Muslims into Catholicism.

If you expect a walk in the park, you're wrong. I don't appreciate the way Europeans have expected to walk into Africa, with a mind to shooing away any natives. I have a powerful state, and won't be treated like some savage nation, that craves a well intentioned nanny.

I do expect it to be somewhat difficult, because they are learned Arabized peoples, with technology similar to pre-gunpowder Europe. They are quite modernized. But, the French are more modernized, and allied with their mortal enemies. It will be quite easy to take the coast and the riverbanks.

If you wish to go to war with me over it, ok...but that might not end up nicely. However, if you wish to establish relations with France, we could ally with you, and leave you to peaceful expanding outself the French realm.

[Glen]

Around Africa. Though, since they are kinda upset with the Portugese for disrespecting the Pope, they didn't stop at any of their ports. I'd assume they stopped in places in Africa where there are still some Spanish and Italians just to resupply. And of course, somewhere were there are Ottomans.

Well, we might speculate that the Kongo and/or Ndongo are in the Spanish sphere at this point, but we need to see if there is a war to know for certain on that.

Other than that, you are SOL for places to stop according to that formula. That's all they probably have at present, and the Ottomans aren't there at all so far as I'm aware.

Then again, we likely need to know if there was a war, and what the fall-out from it was.

Bordeaux was the center of the spice/silk trade a century or so back, so that's why I thought it would be the most plausible city...

Okay, seems reasonable in that regard.


Good question. I tried looking up the word "Indochina," but I didn't find when it came into use.

Maybe drop the Indochina word then, use Asia, or even Siam once you identify it.

Ah, I dunno. I just didn't want them tangled in India as per OTL. In OTL, the Siamese very much liked the French at this period of history, so, yeah. I like your idea of FINDING Siam, and GO FOR the East Indies...thanks :)

No problem, look forward to your editted events.

No, but from a real OTL wealthy Breton marining family from OTL. Took a lot of Googling, though, to find a family suitable...When can we actally come up with our own families and persons?

Well, I'd say new people started being born most likely from January 1494 on, so by the 1524, you can have thirty year olds from known families who didn't exist IOTL.

The "Mali," "Mandin," or "Manding," empire has shown up on European maps since atleast the 1100s, and it was known to the Romans as "Mauretania." Most of their knowledge, though, came from their Ottoman allies. It is well known the Malians had vast amounts of gold, copper, and other "treasures."

MALI! Oh, I was confused when you said Manding, thinking this referred to the Mandingo.

Not yet at least...but most of the main areas of interest are being settled, and I'm trying to keep France from getting involved with a lot of colonial European powers.

That's a reasonable approach.


"Haut Norasie," and "Bas Norasie," (along with "Norasie d'Antarctique") are already appearing on French maps as region names. Usually "Nouvelle Monde," is wrote across North, Central, and South America.

Norasie d'Antarctique?? Are you referring to Antarctica?

I assumed that Upper Norasia was referencing what the English have been calling essentially OTL's North America including Central America, and Lower Norasia was referencing South America. I don't see why you'd have maps with Antarctica on it.

Ok, and then we will just stay there, trade, and return to France.
good idea, thanks :)

Uh, what northern route is there to the Incas? Anyways...I already PMed and talked with the Inca...they say they haven't recieved anything about coming in contact with any Europeans, and that they would be very receptive of the French.

Psychomeltdown had a post where a Portuguese expedition went from the EAST Indies up the coast of Asia then across to Alaska then down the entire west coast of North America and Central America to the Inca. It was wild!:eek:

Ok. Sparsely populated?
Has anyone settled in or even explored Argentina, specifically, Patagonia?

Argentina is essentially untouched, though I think the Hansa had wanted to do something there. Need to recheck that. Sebastian Cabot mapped the Coast and that's about it so far. There are Portuguese to the North in Brazil, however.

Patagonia is very harsh terrain, which is why it was about the last place in South America settled.

Anyone who tries to put people there is going to have a very hard time keeping them alive. The land is harsh and foreign and the time to get supplies from the Home Country very long indeed.

We have Benin, a bit to the south. But they were less powerful than even the Mali and Songhai empires. By allying with the Songhai, it was a shoe-win. Have our African empires conquer the innlands, and have us conquer the coastal lands, and the lands surronding the river, and the important river cities such as "Tombouctou."

So French Coasties, Songhai inner areas...that might work. Does anyone control the Songhai? We also need to check what the state of those cultures were at this specific period of history OTL.


Disease...I might add this is not subsaharan Africa. This is SAHARAN Africa. We're talking OTL Mauretania, Mali, southern Algeria, Upper Volta, the like...I don't think disease is AS WIDELY spread as we are thinking in terms of Africa.

Granted with limits. I was thrown by you saying Manding instead of Mali. You're going in further North than I thought, so yes, you'll more be dealing with Sahel (not Sahara) territory, which is a bit easier and less disease ridden. Give us specific landing sites for your French and we can be more certain.

As I said, I already have the meeting with the Inca being friendly and trade going well negotiated with Atom.

Okay, that works. Poor Hansa, I know they had wanted that contact first.

And I intend on keeping it that way. That's why we might not go on fully forcing the Muslims into Catholicism.

Are you talking in your Mali conquest? Since this invasion was supported by the Crown, I have trouble believing they'll give the Muslims a warm reception. Perhaps first you concentrate on converting the pagan groups, with the Muslims being 'urged' to go to the Songhai interiors. Means a big talent drain away from the Coast and to the Songhai. If the French actually invade, they won't be particularly friendly to the Muslims, though. But given your cultivation of the Ottomans, it is conceivable that you don't force conversions.


I do expect it to be somewhat difficult, because they are learned Arabized peoples, with technology similar to pre-gunpowder Europe. They are quite modernized. But, the French are more modernized, and allied with their mortal enemies. It will be quite easy to take the coast and the riverbanks.

Coasts yes, riverbanks not necessarily. Where you can get your ocean-going vessels with cannon up, sure, but once they become navigable only by boats and not ships, you're pretty much done.

If you wish to go to war with me over it, ok...but that might not end up nicely. However, if you wish to establish relations with France, we could ally with you, and leave you to peaceful expanding outself the French realm.

You two figure out how your nations will interact, good, bad, and ugly.

[Keenir]

Around Africa. Though, since they are kinda upset with the Portugese for disrespecting the Pope, they didn't stop at any of their ports.

given how many there are, that'd be kinda tough.

I'd assume they stopped in places in Africa where there are still some Spanish and Italians just to resupply. And of course, somewhere were there are Ottomans.

oh, so you stopped in Syria and Athens? :)

you're welcome to seize North Africa....and in so doing, you might be able to get one of the great military captains of the century on your side.

yep, the legendary Barbarossa himself.

Bordeaux was the center of the spice/silk trade a century or so back,

a century back, as in the 1800s, or as in the 1400s?

No, but from a real OTL wealthy Breton marining family from OTL. Took a lot of Googling, though, to find a family suitable...When can we actally come up with our own families and persons?

based on suggestions, individuals - 1600s, and families - 1800s.


As I said, I already have the meeting with the Inca being friendly and trade going well negotiated with Atom.

And I intend on keeping it that way. That's why we might not go on fully forcing the Muslims into Catholicism.

okay....tell me if I'm misunderstanding you:
you're not going to convert Muslims because the Ottomans are your allies....does this mean you're also not going to convert the Native Americans because the Inca are your allies?

if that's what you mean, I think you'll be on the Pope's hit list before 1711.
:)

Ok. Sparsely populated?
Has anyone settled in or even explored Argentina, specifically, Patagonia?

its claimed by the Hansa.


If you wish to go to war with me over it, ok...but that might not end up nicely. However, if you wish to establish relations with France, we could ally with you, and leave you to peaceful expanding outself the French realm.

why not put them under the protection of the French crown?

[Glen]

Aussey, I have some critiques of your internal French events, but the computer ate them. Will communicate later.

Big thing is you need to tone down the Breton dominance of the court during the regency or you'll incite civil war, and you need to either justify based on the OTL personality of Anne of Brittany your description of her court and her writing a book on court etiquette, or cut that stuff. Also don't need to import Italian humanists, you've got homegrown French humanists, use them, not enough interaction with the Italian states in this timeline to justify that.

[Aussey]

1521-1525: Wealthy citizens of Bordeaux, hearing of great trade with the east, form the La Compagnie française des Indes orientales, the French East India Company. The main purpose of the company was to establish trade and monopolize the trade with the East Indies. The ships land on Java in 1522, and from there they begin exploration of Les Indies de le n'est portugaises, the Non Portugese Indies. Their expedition founds trading posts along the coastal mainland, until they come in contact with the Siamese. The expedition sails to Siam, where they are well recieved in the Ayutthaya court*. Upon return with diplomatic promises of trade and friendship, one Frenchmen remarked the size and wealth of the Siamese capital with that of Paris! ** The tales of the splendor of Indochina quickly led to more investment in the company, followed by a second visit in 1526.

[[THERE WILL BE A HUGE EUROPEAN EVENT HAPPENING IN THIS TIME PERIOD BETWEEN 1520 AND 1528]]

1526: Henri-Philippe du Penn-ar-Bed, a member of the newly prominent Breton marineing family and a Breton favorite of the Queen-Regent, proposes to King Charles IX to potential in the "conquering, conversion, and incorporation of the wealthy Manding empire of Africa." The idea gains quick popularity amongst the court and the King himself- all jealous of the vast new empires of the English, Portugese, Spaniards, and even the Neapolitans. Preparations for invasion began, and peasants were promised vast estates in the lands of the mythic, Moorish "Quivira and Cíbola," more commonly known in France as the "Villes d'Ors." Peasants and noblemen alike joined the army and began preparation for invasion.

1527-1530: While the entire nations was preparing for "Great adventure in Africa," for the honor and glory of the Holy Trinity and France, many Parisian merchants were still convinced the King’s great dream, of colonizing Lower Norasia. Many were dismayed to learn of the great distance, however, these merchants were not. They were led by the recently created Duke of Guise, who wished to counter the Portuguese presence in Lower Norasia. With the King’s grant, the Duke of Guise and his followers founded the La Compagnie française du Bas-Norasie, French Lower Norasia Company. A group of ships departed with some merchants, sailors, soldiers, and trade supplies to find suitable locations for settlement, trade, and colonization in Bas-Norasie. The expedition took off in the spring, and after stopping on the northeastern coast of Lower Norasia ***, they stopped again in the southern cone, restocked, and sailed north again, until the reached a large native empire.

Meanwhile, in the Old World, in the summer of 1528, the French launched their massive invasion of the Manding empire from the Senegal, after landing pn the Guinea coast. The French allied with the Arab immigrants and the Arabized Africans, against the the "pagan heathens," of the empire. Allying himself primarily with the leader of the Muslim resistance of Arabized Africans, Moors, and Arabs- the chief of the Mande, the Captain Penn-ar-Bed was able to have his African allies conquer the inner empire, while his army took the coast effectively. Due to the recent dynastic troubles, the French were able to ally with many pretender dynasties, and thus allied with many of the chieftains, finally conquering the great city of Tombouctou in 1529. The French allied themselves with the Manding’s great enemy, the ever growing Songhai, and were finally able to take the empire.The French conquerors executed both claimants to the throne, those who claimed to be Mansa Mahmud II and III. The French conquerors stayed, and carved up viceroyalties within the empire. The Songhai were kept at bay as quasi allies, for the time being. The leader of the expedition, Henri-Philippe du Penn-ar-Bed, returned with the Manding crown and vast treasures of gold and copper and such, and Charles IX humbly accepted the title “Emperor of Mauretania,” declaring his realm to be an empire, in the same sorts the English had. He also declared himself equal to the Holy Roman Emperor in precedence, and declared himself to be an Emperor. The Dauphin Philippe was also created "Prince du Timbouctou." Many peasants went to Africa upon du Penn-ar-Bed’s return to Tombouctou. Missions were set up to convert the pagans, and the King himself ordered the Muslims to be treated as if they were Saved Peoples, and to be fined for not attending Mass****.

Meanwhile, in Lower Norasia, the French gained the profitable trade with the Incas, trading French made guns and swords for the treasures of the Inca.




*In OTL, the French were well recieved at this Court...
**In OTL, a Frenchmen returning from Siam said this of Siam...
***The Guyanas region...
****An alternative way of making them second-class citizens...
-------------------------------------------------------------
Big thing is you need to tone down the Breton dominance of the court during the regency or you'll incite civil war, and you need to either justify based on the OTL personality of Anne of Brittany your description of her court and her writing a book on court etiquette, or cut that stuff. Also don't need to import Italian humanists, you've got homegrown French humanists, use them, not enough interaction with the Italian states in this timeline to justify that.

The Breton dominance is a sure-fire thing during a Regency of Anne of Brittany. She was fiercely proud of her Duchy, and was said to be heartbroken when her husband refused her to style herself Duchess of Brittany. However, Charles IX is raising a new region to prominence at court, the Guise family, who were made dukes by Charles IX. Breton dominance quickly lost it's power at the ascension of the King years back.

Anne of Brittany DID impose strict rules on the manners of her court, read her biography. I figured writing an etiquette book could be reasonable, but it was just to add taste to the posting. Take it out if you wish.

And you can take out the part about importing French humanists. I see what you're saying, and it makes sense.

[Keenir]

He also declared himself equal to the Holy Roman Emperor in precedence, and declared himself to be an Emperor.

I don't know what the unmentioned event was, but I suspect it'll be followed by the HRE making the noises of war towards France.

The Breton dominance is a sure-fire thing during a Regency of Anne of Brittany. She was fiercely proud of her Duchy, and was said to be heartbroken when her husband refused her to style herself Duchess of Brittany.

two questions:
what was Breton's relationship with Burgundy and the Palatine?

which parts of France are going to be irked that Brittany is, in essence, ruling France?

And you can take out the part about importing French humanists. I see what you're saying, and it makes sense.

maybe the newly-crowned King had to import them, since they fled France during the Regency.
:D;)

[AJNolte]

Remember Aussie: you've got Erasmus most likely. That's a big boost to French humanism.

And I thought the Hansa claim to Argentina was disallowed? We bought Trinidad instead I thought.

[Glen]

The Breton dominance is a sure-fire thing during a Regency of Anne of Brittany. She was fiercely proud of her Duchy, and was said to be heartbroken when her husband refused her to style herself Duchess of Brittany. However, Charles IX is raising a new region to prominence at court, the Guise family, who were made dukes by Charles IX. Breton dominance quickly lost it's power at the ascension of the King years back.

You're not hearing me, Aussey. I am worried that it is implausible to have an Anne regency where the Bretons were dominant UNLESS there was concommitant strife from the other regions of France being slighted. Anne is almost a foreigner in a way, and to show such overt favor for the Bretons over other regions of France would invite insurrection.

Yes, Anne will protect Brittany, and will have Bretons in her government, but she has to play a much more balanced game if she is to hold the other French nobles in hand until Charles IX is of age. Pick which you want:

A Breton dominated French Regency with a lot of insurrections to be fought.

Or a political balancing act in the French Court during the Regency and relative peace in the Kingdom of France.

Pick one.

Anne of Brittany DID impose strict rules on the manners of her court, read her biography. I figured writing an etiquette book could be reasonable, but it was just to add taste to the posting. Take it out if you wish.

Didn't necessarily want it removed, just verified as within her character.


And you can take out the part about importing French humanists. I see what you're saying, and it makes sense.

I assume you mean Italian here, and I'm glad you agree.

[Glen]

Remember Aussie: you've got Erasmus most likely. That's a big boost to French humanism.

Erasmus is a hard guy to pin down.


And I thought the Hansa claim to Argentina was disallowed? We bought Trinidad instead I thought.

Ah, Trinidad would be a much better option for the Hansa. Forgot about that. BTW, you should have some contact events with the Muisca as they moved into the Orinoco region I believe.

However, as time goes on, I would entertain future ventures by the Hansa of this type, IF you are willing to chance war with the Portuguese or whoever else you encroach on. It was more the massive, circumnavigating course that I think we were concerned about so early. We're now in the 1530s and I think that things are going to loosen up a bit if you can justify it. France was able to do this kind of thing back in the day, so its allowed for now. In a few more decades, I can see your mutated Hansa trying more ambitious projects as well.

I don't object to gradual Hansa colonial trade building, more them having been the very first from day one. The French are more likely than the Hansa to have gone to Argentina first, though don't let that stop you from considering your own course of action later in that same region.

I could see by the mid 1500s, some tentative attempts by multiple nations to use the route around the tip of South America to bypass the Portuguese (depending on how things work out with that darned war thingee in the 1510s). Note that you all won't be building a lot in Patagonia; there's a reason there wasn't much there until late.

[AJNolte]

Erasmus is a hard guy to pin down.



Ah, Trinidad would be a much better option for the Hansa. Forgot about that. BTW, you should have some contact events with the Muisca as they moved into the Orinoco region I believe.

However, as time goes on, I would entertain future ventures by the Hansa of this type, IF you are willing to chance war with the Portuguese or whoever else you encroach on. It was more the massive, circumnavigating course that I think we were concerned about so early. We're now in the 1530s and I think that things are going to loosen up a bit if you can justify it. France was able to do this kind of thing back in the day, so its allowed for now. In a few more decades, I can see your mutated Hansa trying more ambitious projects as well.

I don't object to gradual Hansa colonial trade building, more them having been the very first from day one. The French are more likely than the Hansa to have gone to Argentina first, though don't let that stop you from considering your own course of action later in that same region.

I could see by the mid 1500s, some tentative attempts by multiple nations to use the route around the tip of South America to bypass the Portuguese (depending on how things work out with that darned war thingee in the 1510s). Note that you all won't be building a lot in Patagonia; there's a reason there wasn't much there until late.

Smaug: PM me about Muisca/Hansa trade contacts. Sounds like your federation is our kinda people.

We may try colonization at some point, or the HTF might. It depends on the reformation, events in Italy, etc. The palatinate, parts of Italy and Malta are actually in the league, though the Wettinite Reformation could hurt this if the league splits over it (Keenir's looking to take the Rhenish in a strongly counter-reformation direction, while the HTF will pretty much be Wettinite).

For now, we're just happy to be turning a mega profit from the English and start building trade networks from Trinidad.

One other thing I'd like to thrash out is the HTF position on slavery. This will be strongly effected by later Wettinite events, but suffice it to say that's one trade into which the HTF at least will not be looking to get involved.

[Smaug]

Smaug: PM me about Muisca/Hansa trade contacts. Sounds like your federation is our kinda people.

We may try colonization at some point, or the HTF might. It depends on the reformation, events in Italy, etc. The palatinate, parts of Italy and Malta are actually in the league, though the Wettinite Reformation could hurt this if the league splits over it (Keenir's looking to take the Rhenish in a strongly counter-reformation direction, while the HTF will pretty much be Wettinite).

For now, we're just happy to be turning a mega profit from the English and start building trade networks from Trinidad.

One other thing I'd like to thrash out is the HTF position on slavery. This will be strongly effected by later Wettinite events, but suffice it to say that's one trade into which the HTF at least will not be looking to get involved.

Smaug: PM me about Muisca/Hansa trade contacts. Sounds like your federation is our kinda people.

I just read the rewrite, and I'm not even sure if I exist. I had hoped to be a trade oriented state, but I'll just have to wait things out I suppose. In all honesty, I'm getting rather disillusioned, across the board:/

[AJNolte]

Smaug: PM me about Muisca/Hansa trade contacts. Sounds like your federation is our kinda people.

I just read the rewrite, and I'm not even sure if I exist. I had hoped to be a trade oriented state, but I'll just have to wait things out I suppose. In all honesty, I'm getting rather disillusioned, across the board:/


Why wouldn't you still exist? Weren't ethe Muisca a trade-oriented loose federation of tribes?
Besides: Glen basically just said I could trade with you, meaning ibso facto you must still exist. <g>
I'm sure we can come to a mutually beneficial arrangement. PM me with what you need and I'll see if the Hansa can trade it to you.

[Psychomeltdown]

I agree. The Pacific Northwest is just too big a stretch for these early decades. If things keep going as they are, I might be induced to believing we have earlier exploration of it than OTL, perhaps even a century earlier, but two centuries is a bit of a stretch unless something happens to significantly change that.

FYI, the English cum Anglo-British are CLAIMING all of Norasia (Continental North America) under their protection, but that's a far cry from COLONIZING, ENFORCING, or even EXPLORING all of North America. Just so we all understand each other. The Spanish did similar, though you can see that the theory and the practice did not always equate OTL.

Portugese are doing the same thing. They’ve claimed all of S. America, since Diaz was the one would mapped and claimed it for their crown. It’s a big place and a lot of things can happen.



4) Why are they targeting Siam from the onset? What prompted this? I'd suggest having them go for the Indies, find Siam receptive and THEN have them decide to focus on trade there. Its kind of our of left field.

Why are they targeting the Manding in particular? What have they heard about them and from where? Also, note that the English, Spanish and Neapolitans don't really have VAST empires, just some good trade posts (granted, the English are claiming a potentially VAST empire, so there's that.

The Portuguese, on the otherhand, are starting to look like a true Empire. And looking to protect it…


Remove reference to LOOKING for the Inca. I would suggest rather that you FIND the Inca. Why would you find them....maybe you are looking to be able to hug the coast a ways further before embarking into the scary Arthurian sea, hoping for a shorter Blue Water course to Asia for landfall. This would be a potentially plausible reason for it, IMO.

However, I think you and Psychomeltdown need to talk about timings. He very well could have gotten there first (by going the Southern Route, NOT the Northern Route!), just not certain. Right, a more southern route. Possibly following the Kuroshio Current out of Japan and landing in about N. California and moving down from there, avoiding the California Current and heading down to Mexico and then onward the Straits of Diaz, bumping into the Inca along the way.

If they do find the Inca and they do discover the gold that can be made there, this might make things even more dicey for folks who are trying to use SA as an alternate route to Asia… Portugal does technically claim all of SA and if there is viable trade there, they are sure to send their ships and men there to set up shop…

The Kindom of Benin, and the Oyo and Aro have interests in the region.

If you expect a walk in the park, you're wrong. I don't appreciate the way Europeans have expected to walk into Africa, with a mind to shooing away any natives. I have a powerful state, and won't be treated like some savage nation, that craves a well intentioned nanny.:( It’s pretty much how Europe treated all non European nations.

I think Aussey's French can secure the Coastal areas, and claim the interior, though that's probably about the extent of it, a claim.
Portugal still retains claim on pretty much everything S. of Central Africa, are Spain and Naples still there? I had thought it was retconned to be mainly Portugal’s territory?


Around Africa. Though, since they are kinda upset with the Portugese for disrespecting the Pope, they didn't stop at any of their ports. I'd assume they stopped in places in Africa where there are still some Spanish and Italians just to resupply. And of course, somewhere were there are Ottomans.
There was no actual disrespecting of the Pope, more a political persecution of church folk.

Ok. Sparsely populated?
Has anyone settled in or even explored Argentina, specifically, Patagonia? Nope. It’s all been claimed by Portugal, but their interest is mainly in India.

As I said, I already have the meeting with the Inca being friendly and trade going well negotiated with Atom.
I’ll have to talk with Atom also…


I could see by the mid 1500s, some tentative attempts by multiple nations to use the route around the tip of South America to bypass the Portuguese (depending on how things work out with that darned war thingee in the 1510s). Note that you all won't be building a lot in Patagonia; there's a reason there wasn't much there until late.

My offer to give up claims to SA still stand. :D

[Glen]

Portugese are doing the same thing. They’ve claimed all of S. America, since Diaz was the one would mapped and claimed it for their crown. It’s a big place and a lot of things can happen.

Its kind of our of left field.

And looking to protect it…


Right, a more southern route. Possibly following the Kuroshio Current out of Japan and landing in about N. California and moving down from there, avoiding the California Current and heading down to Mexico and then onward the Straits of Diaz, bumping into the Inca along the way.

If they do find the Inca and they do discover the gold that can be made there, this might make things even more dicey for folks who are trying to use SA as an alternate route to Asia… Portugal does technically claim all of SA and if there is viable trade there, they are sure to send their ships and men there to set up shop…

Okay, to sumarize here, while there is probably some debate over who 'mapped' the South American coast (on the eastern seaboard), the English are not interested in getting into a fight over Portugal over it so long as we agree on the Panama demarcation and we don't have our shipping molested.

France IS going to try and horn in a bit on Portuguese South Africa, and Portugal and France are reasonable competitors in this arena.

I still think that the Inca would be first contacted by people going from Europe to South America, rounding the Staights of Magellan, then UP the west coast of South Africa.

The Portuguese sending a West to East expedition from China/Japan to the West Coast at this point in history STILL doesn't make sense to me. They have the African-Indian ocean route, which is profitable for them, and even a claim on the other route. This trip just seems odd to me this early on...for ANY of us.

Now then, going West to East from Europe for any of the other nations not only makes sense, but is highly desirable as they avoid the Portuguese main route but can open trade with the Far East. Again, for even those nations, going all the way North when it is KNOWN that you can jump across the ocean earlier makes no sense. Why would you add MORE time and trouble to your route.

The West Coast of North America will gradually be discovered, but this is just way too early for it I suspect.

Now then, if any of you can give me a good counter-rationale to those above to allow for an earlier expedition, please let me know.


It’s pretty much how Europe treated all non European nations.

Portugal still retains claim on pretty much everything S. of Central Africa, are Spain and Naples still there? I had thought it was retconned to be mainly Portugal’s territory?

The South Africa colony is gone, but the Kongo/Ndongo defection to the Spaniards gradually is still part of the timeline.

There was no actual disrespecting of the Pope, more a political persecution of church folk.

I doubt that he will parse so finely....


Nope. It’s all been claimed by Portugal, but their interest is mainly in India.

I’ll have to talk with Atom also…

My offer to give up claims to SA still stand. :D

All of the above noted.

[Aussey]

Portugese are doing the same thing. They’ve claimed all of S. America, since Diaz was the one would mapped and claimed it for their crown. It’s a big place and a lot of things can happen.

Its kind of our of left field.

And looking to protect it…

Right, a more southern route. Possibly following the Kuroshio Current out of Japan and landing in about N. California and moving down from there, avoiding the California Current and heading down to Mexico and then onward the Straits of Diaz, bumping into the Inca along the way.

If they do find the Inca and they do discover the gold that can be made there, this might make things even more dicey for folks who are trying to use SA as an alternate route to Asia… Portugal does technically claim all of SA and if there is viable trade there, they are sure to send their ships and men there to set up shop…

It’s pretty much how Europe treated all non European nations.

Portugal still retains claim on pretty much everything S. of Central Africa, are Spain and Naples still there? I had thought it was retconned to be mainly Portugal’s territory?

There was no actual disrespecting of the Pope, more a political persecution of church folk.

Nope. It’s all been claimed by Portugal, but their interest is mainly in India.

I’ll have to talk with Atom also…

My offer to give up claims to SA still stand. :D

You do know I was posting this as the FRENCH? The French have reached the Incas, and now don't wish to find a Northwest passage at the moment...we have trade with Siam, the Inca, and a colony in North America...

[joemac]

1520-1530 thanks to heavy rain and a unified group of tuareg tribes as well as information and resources from europe thanks to the gold trade water is found although a relativly small amount the tuareg can live off ita new town is founded with the largest building going to the head of the tuareg chiefs with slightly smaller buildings for his closest in command although slightly difficult at first to manage given the tuaregs nomadic history by 1530 the tuaregs have a town in the middle of the gold trading route

[Tom Veil]

1520-1530 thanks to heavy rain and a unified group of tuareg tribes as well as information and resources from europe thanks to the gold trade water is found although a relativly small amount the tuareg can live off ita new town is founded with the largest building going to the head of the tuareg chiefs with slightly smaller buildings for his closest in command although slightly difficult at first to manage given the tuaregs nomadic history by 1530 the tuaregs have a town in the middle of the gold trading route

It would be really helpful to have this split into multiple events -- or at least multiple sentences.

[Psychomeltdown]

You do know I was posting this as the FRENCH? The French have reached the Incas, and now don't wish to find a Northwest passage at the moment...we have trade with Siam, the Inca, and a colony in North America...

Yeah, i know.

The reason i said that trade with Siam came out of left field.

That Portugal still claims all of SA.

and that the Portuguese also have discovered the Inca and therefore it will make the situation more dicey in SA as to who controls what.