1493 Sub-Saharan Africa Discussion

[Glen]

Okay, we need to discuss the problems with Kongo and Ndongo.

1) While the adoption of European names and to a lesser degree titles is reasonable and indeed in line with OTL, they are still acting too Europeanized. I would think there'd be a longer learning curve. Its as much style as anything else. Right now, Aussey's posts on them sound more European than Europe.:eek:

2) These nations are embarking on much too ambitious infrastructure (and church) projects. If they really want to try and emulate the Europeans, the first things they need to do in the decades to come is gain a grip on their populations to alter the governance and practices of their territories. This should take a few generations.

3) Sending out multi nation tours and ambassadors is a rather severe divergence. To Portugal and Spain, sure, given their relations. England's a stretch but one Prince catching a ride with an embassy from one of the Iberian nations given the marriage ties may be possible. Naples too may not be too bad a stretch. The rest seems too much, though.

4) Shipbuilding's right out. No history of it, no precedent for it, and not in the interests of the Portuguese who dominate the area. Try it and they would have to respond, unless it was set up by the Portuguese themselves for their own purposes. That may actually gain some traction if we put it in.

5) Massive territorial expansion through Central Africa is unrealistic. It is uncharted and heavily overgrown terrain. It will be the work of generations doing something like that.

6) Europeans sent to Central Africa should fare somewhat poorly due to disease.

7) It would be highly unlikely that foreign countries would send massive support in the form of educators and artisans and craftsmen to teach and build these nations. Some priests, sure. Other than that, these nations don't have enough learned/skilled people for their own uses yet. Give it another couple generations maybe.

[Tom Veil]

I agree on all points.

[Glen]

My suggestion would be a rewrite on style, to make it clear that the niceties of European-style Court Life are new to the Congo region, a down-sizing and slow-down of the degree of development and aide, and a much scaled down sending of Africans to Europe and vice versa.

I do suggest that we work out who is supporting these nations in Europe. Realistically it would be Portugal (and was for Kongo IOTL IIRC). TTL's Portugal if Psychomeltdown is in agreement could give a little more support to these nations, including perhaps setting some modest shipping repair facilities in their best port areas. Given that these are weystations for the Portuguese for their Indies trade, having some capacity to repair ships damaged by storms on the way would not be terribly unreasonable. That would give them a start on locals picking up some of the shipwright trade.

BTW, a similar approach could be taken with Ethiopia with regard to developing some experience with ships, though there it is also possible they could work with Yemen instead, which is more probable overall than with India, though that too is a distant but possible possibility.

Oh, one other issue with Aussey's nations particularly, is the overuse of women this early on in the timeline. I am sorry, but as much as I WISH that women were given more equality or respect, in this time period, that will be the exception (and indeed there are some big exceptions) not the rule.

[The Sicilian]

So basically what you are saying is that we should replace Naples' interection with Ndongo with Portugal, or that we should cut it out all together?

[Glen]

So basically what you are saying is that we should replace Naples' interaction with Ndongo with Portugal, or that we should cut it out all together?

I'm saying that would be the more realistic option, especially for Kongo which already had contact with Portugal.

The problem with the Ndongo contacts with Naples is that it seems to initially come from Ndongo sending out representatives through the Portuguese, and then the Neapolitans responding by establishing a presence there.

Spain would be a second best as the Ndongo contact, though I guarantee that will spark conflict with Portugal. A joint Spanish-Neapolitan effort is possible with Naples again as the junior member.

However, for all that, we'd need a reason (or several) for the Ndongonese to favor the Spanish-Neapolitans over the Portuguese. Not that one couldn't be established, just that one needs to be established.

[Glen]

One thing I will say in favor of some of the Ndongo events is that they do appear to have a feudalistic style society, and a history of sending out embassies for assistance from Europe (but note, only Portugal).

Ndongo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ndongo)

So maybe we could salvage something of this. But the real question is not can it be done, but how it is done. The events happen very fast and without a lot of underpinning as is, so need better rationales.

[Keenir]

I'm going to pick up with the San again in a few decades...not much will have changed, save for a new sect of Christianity having taken seed and root there.
(willing to ally with Portugal in about 1520s or 1530s)

[Glen]

Has anyone seen Aussey lately? I'd like him to take a crack at modifying his posts here.

[AJNolte]

I had been planning (back when I initially claimed Kongo) to move it out of the Portuguese sphere of influence during the reign of Aphonso. If you look at Aphonso's correspondence, he is almost universally critical of the Portuguese (they are exploiting his people, their troops are lazy and cowardly, they aren't sending him the aid he needs, etc). Given Manuel's, uh, high-handedness, I could see him pissing off Aphonso enough to make a gravitation to the Spanish/Neapolitans likely.
Hmm, Messiniano, I think a more formal Spanish-Neapolitan alliance--something akin to the Treaty of Lisban--would help justify some of these joint ventures. And since we're retconing a fair number of other things I recommend we put this in. The growing clout of Portugal and the possible hostility of the Ottomans seems like a good enough reason for me. Perhaps as early as the 1490s?

This, BTW, is part of the difficulty of a shared project like this; had we known in the first week just how aggressive Portugal was going to be we would have probably formalized an alliance at that point and avoided a lot of this implausibility stuff now. Additionally, the situation with France and Navarre, whenever they come into play, is doubtless going to require yet more massive revisions once we hear from them. So since we're trying to overhaul the whole TL at this point I don't think we can reasonably proceed without France at least.

[Glen]

I had been planning (back when I initially claimed Kongo) to move it out of the Portuguese sphere of influence during the reign of Aphonso. If you look at Aphonso's correspondence, he is almost universally critical of the Portuguese (they are exploiting his people, their troops are lazy and cowardly, they aren't sending him the aid he needs, etc). Given Manuel's, uh, high-handedness, I could see him pissing off Aphonso enough to make a gravitation to the Spanish/Neapolitans likely.
Hmm, Messiniano, I think a more formal Spanish-Neapolitan alliance--something akin to the Treaty of Lisban--would help justify some of these joint ventures. And since we're retconing a fair number of other things I recommend we put this in. The growing clout of Portugal and the possible hostility of the Ottomans seems like a good enough reason for me. Perhaps as early as the 1490s?

After 1494, I can see the Spanish and Neapolitans forming a formal alliance (with Naples subordinate to Spain).


This, BTW, is part of the difficulty of a shared project like this; had we known in the first week just how aggressive Portugal was going to be we would have probably formalized an alliance at that point and avoided a lot of this implausibility stuff now. Additionally, the situation with France and Navarre, whenever they come into play, is doubtless going to require yet more massive revisions once we hear from them. So since we're trying to overhaul the whole TL at this point I don't think we can reasonably proceed without France at least.

I think that the problem is more that Psychomeltdown came in late with significant plausibility concerns, rather than Portugal coming in late requiring a lot of changes.

We are suffering from not enough thought and scrutiny of the earlier events (again, I am sorry), and we will have to do better from here on out. As for France and Navarre and others like them, once we get the current snarl worked out, any events that are written for the time before the current level of writing will have to conform to the previously written events.

[Aussey]

1) While the adoption of European names and to a lesser degree titles is reasonable and indeed in line with OTL, they are still acting too Europeanized. I would think there'd be a longer learning curve. Its as much style as anything else. Right now, Aussey's posts on them sound more European than Europe.

If you read up on this, the early Catholic monarchs DID establish Europeanesque titles very shortly after. They even developed flags, coats-of-arms, etc. Middle kings dropped this traditions, and it was revived later on in the 18th and 19th century.

2) These nations are embarking on much too ambitious infrastructure (and church) projects. If they really want to try and emulate the Europeans, the first things they need to do in the decades to come is gain a grip on their populations to alter the governance and practices of their territories. This should take a few generations.

I understand. In no way was I saying that everyone was truly Catholic. It's like the New World- in order to live, many people are getting baptized and attending Mass. That's all I've said. Not that these people's personal belief realy is Catholic.

3) Sending out multi nation tours and ambassadors is a rather severe divergence. To Portugal and Spain, sure, given their relations. England's a stretch but one Prince catching a ride with an embassy from one of the Iberian nations given the marriage ties may be possible. Naples too may not be too bad a stretch. The rest seems too much, though.

Pocahontas? I don't know for sure about the Africans, but I see no reason why they couldn't. I'd be fine saying they only visited Iberia and Italy, and possibly diverting to the HRE quickly.

5) Massive territorial expansion through Central Africa is unrealistic. It is uncharted and heavily overgrown terrain. It will be the work of generations doing something like that.

It's not massive. It's the Lunda/Luba. The empire Portugal wished to conquer, however they got merged with Spain, and by the time they were independnet, the British had been established in southern Africa, and forbade connecting Angola and Mozambique, and forbade the Portugese monarchy to establish itself in Angola.

6) Europeans sent to Central Africa should fare somewhat poorly due to disease.

Possibly in the Congo region. But Ndongo and Matamba are in Angola and Botswana.

7) It would be highly unlikely that foreign countries would send massive support in the form of educators and artisans and craftsmen to teach and build these nations. Some priests, sure. Other than that, these nations don't have enough learned/skilled people for their own uses yet. Give it another couple generations maybe.

They did it to the New World in OTL. I just don't see what the difference is.

[Atom]

7) It would be highly unlikely that foreign countries would send massive support in the form of educators and artisans and craftsmen to teach and build these nations. Some priests, sure. Other than that, these nations don't have enough learned/skilled people for their own uses yet. Give it another couple generations maybe.

They did it to the New World in OTL. I just don't see what the difference is.
The difference is they ruled the New World.

[Tom Veil]

7) It would be highly unlikely that foreign countries would send massive support in the form of educators and artisans and craftsmen to teach and build these nations. Some priests, sure. Other than that, these nations don't have enough learned/skilled people for their own uses yet. Give it another couple generations maybe.

They did it to the New World in OTL. I just don't see what the difference is.
Also, in OTL New World, aside from the Spanish, they didn't do it in significant numbers until around 1650.

[The Sicilian]

Speaking for Naples on that issue, they sent experts to Africa for their own profit. Yes, they buit roads and mines, but only so they could extract minerals with more ease. Only later will they sent people specifically to help modernize the S-W African kingdoms.

[Glen]

Okay, I think the issues for international affairs basically boils down to:

1) Who patronizes Kongo, and who patronizes Ndongo?

2) Pace at which Europeanification can occur?

3) What will Portugal's reaction be if any of those patrons are not Portugal?

Answer these questions and the rest is a matter of style (such as reducing the wild number of prominant women so early in the timeline).

[AJNolte]

1. Spanish-Neapolitan entente.
2. Portugal will eventually probably go to war over it.

However, I could see the Kongolese accepting Portuguese patronage until the 1520s or so, by which point Aphonso will be firmly sick of their high-handedness. I think Aphonso would approach the Spanish-Neapolitans--not vice-a-versa--and that they would accept to dent Portugal (relations will sour if and when the Portuguese don't help their Catholic brethren against the Ottomans.
War between Portugal and Spain/Naples is likely anyway.

[Smaug]

I have Benin, and the Kano, Katsina, Oyo, Aro, who I intend to absorb into the kindgdom of Benin.

Somewhere or other I got some priests from AJ. I just intend to let them ply thier trade, I'll have some guys pretend to by into Christianity, and i'll let my people choose it also if they so choose. IIRC, at this time, Benin was heavily involved in the slave trade, and had probably also met with Muslims at some point. So figure that if I have a chunk of Muslims for citizens, it won't hurt to have Christians ( I still like the story of the Man who was nailed to a tree.), as a counterwight.

Even a moderately capable ruler would see the logic of this. Being outside of this whole spat to the South, I'll trade with whoever I please. Shows me some guns, gadgets, and probably lots of liquor:)

[Psychomeltdown]

things will probably go the same, when dealing with the Central Africa region.

The Portuguese were there simply for one thing, Slaves. We sell the locals guns and other trade goods, they give us slaves. The reason East Africa has been settled and ports taken is that they're required to support the trade link to India, but Cent. Africa on the West coast can be easily bypassed.

They'll be contact with the area, missionaries will be sent (prior to the cutting of funding to the Portuguese Church) and there will probably be a military presence there, but nothing big.

Currently the slave market isn't all that good, since there are no areas to readily exploit, But in a few decades, by mid 1500s there should be a large demand for them. Until then Portugal's relationship will be a little distant with them, but they'll still be claiming them as a part of their sphere of influence.


Basically there is no reason for Spain or Naples to be heading about Africa. If they're there then they'll be assumed to be pirates, even if they're flagged as Spanish/Naples, a very thin line between pirates and military vessels.

Most likely no word will get to Spain or Naples, unless some long journey by the locals is undertaken, Portugal controls the sea, they have no sea going vessels, and Spain and Naples aren't going to be there, unless they're absolutely willing to go to war over that area.

[AJNolte]

things will probably go the same, when dealing with the Central Africa region.

The Portuguese were there simply for one thing, Slaves. We sell the locals guns and other trade goods, they give us slaves. The reason East Africa has been settled and ports taken is that they're required to support the trade link to India, but Cent. Africa on the West coast can be easily bypassed.

They'll be contact with the area, missionaries will be sent (prior to the cutting of funding to the Portuguese Church) and there will probably be a military presence there, but nothing big.

Currently the slave market isn't all that good, since there are no areas to readily exploit, But in a few decades, by mid 1500s there should be a large demand for them. Until then Portugal's relationship will be a little distant with them, but they'll still be claiming them as a part of their sphere of influence.


Basically there is no reason for Spain or Naples to be heading about Africa. If they're there then they'll be assumed to be pirates, even if they're flagged as Spanish/Naples, a very thin line between pirates and military vessels.

Most likely no word will get to Spain or Naples, unless some long journey by the locals is undertaken, Portugal controls the sea, they have no sea going vessels, and Spain and Naples aren't going to be there, unless they're absolutely willing to go to war over that area.

I can't speak to what Aussie's going to do now, but my idea for Kongo was to have Henriqe (son of Aphonso) do some traveling before his OTL trip to the seminary in Portugal he attended. Hesends word about a country rivaling Portugal (Spain) and Aphonso, who is annoyed with the distance of the Portuguese and accuses them of all manner of things (including selling his free citizens into slavery which annoys Aphonso) decides to give Spain a try.
Depending on other factors, Spain would gladly welcome the Kongolese simply to stick a thumb in Portugal's eye, though with a possible eye toward developing the region.
And wouldn't bypassing the west be terribly awkward from a refueling (food and provisions) perspective? I know you've got the cape settlement but that's quite a haul from Portugal.

[Keenir]

I have Benin, and the Kano, Katsina, Oyo, Aro, who I intend to absorb into the kindgdom of Benin.

how far are your groups from the Khoisan?

if they're within a trade network's reach, they might be hearing soon about a new denomination of Christianity.

[Smaug]

how far are your groups from the Khoisan?

if they're within a trade network's reach, they might be hearing soon about a new denomination of Christianity.

I think the Khoisans were in South Africa IIRC. I'm in the OTL area of Benin and Nigeria.

[Glen]

Its true that the main reason for any Europeans to take a specific interest in Central Africa at this time period is as part of a trade network to the orient.

Then again, someone always could discover some diamonds.....:eek:

[Smaug]

Its a shit sammich. Thats why I picked a spot :D

[Psychomeltdown]

I can't speak to what Aussie's going to do now, but my idea for Kongo was to have Henriqe (son of Aphonso) do some traveling before his OTL trip to the seminary in Portugal he attended. Hesends word about a country rivaling Portugal (Spain) and Aphonso, who is annoyed with the distance of the Portuguese and accuses them of all manner of things (including selling his free citizens into slavery which annoys Aphonso) decides to give Spain a try.
Depending on other factors, Spain would gladly welcome the Kongolese simply to stick a thumb in Portugal's eye, though with a possible eye toward developing the region.
And wouldn't bypassing the west be terribly awkward from a refueling (food and provisions) perspective? I know you've got the cape settlement but that's quite a haul from Portugal.

True, but unless Herique, Alphonso's son, gets permission to ride upon Portuguese ships, he's going no where. They're basically dependent upon the Ports to do their shipping, since they probably have nothing comparable in their country.

Plus would Spain be willing to go to a financially draining war on a very flimsy excuse of helping out some savages from AFrica? Gotta think in terms of 16th cent. perspective, the Europeans thought themselves as the height of human accomplishment and morality, that all other people weren't even human in some cases. Even if the Kongo is relatively catholic, Spain's vehement idea of what is truly catholic will be completely and utterly different from the Kongo's idea, therefore you're looking at Spain seeing them as some quasi heathen pagan abomination.

There won't really be much in the way of helping out the lesser people, not in this time and age where our concept of humanism and equality do not exist. The mentality is of taking advantage of what you can, taking what you can from lesser people, enslaving and converting primitives, and above all else protecting what is yours from other people (equal nations) and taking every opportunity to screw up their internal processes. If you're weak they'll attack you, if you kick their asses then they'll treat you with some equality, but in a condescending manner.

Europeans at this time were highly religious, murderous, backstabbing, and greedy beyond all belief. Their treatment of 'lesser people' was one of atrocity and pure evilness and unfortunately the way they act won't be one that you can ignore.




There are islands off the Cent. African coast that have been used as refueling and supply gathering and settlement, in OTL. The Ports have laid claimed to those islands and unlike OTL haven't done much to it beyond making it a refueling stop on the trip Indiaward.


Its true that the main reason for any Europeans to take a specific interest in Central Africa at this time period is as part of a trade network to the orient.

Then again, someone always could discover some diamonds.....:eek:

Yup, then the invasion comes.

[The Sicilian]

Humanism and ideas of equality don't exist??! What timeline are you from? :rolleyes:
This is the Renaissance, Psycho not the Dark ages.

As for the diamonds, IIRC Naples was given rights to mine them.

P.S. Where's Aussey? He seems to have disappeared.:confused:

[Psychomeltdown]

Humanism and ideas of equality don't exist??! What timeline are you from? :rolleyes:
This is the Renaissance, Psycho not the Dark ages.

As for the diamonds, IIRC Naples was given rights to mine them.

P.S. Where's Aussey? He seems to have disappeared.:confused:

When it comes to dealing with other Europeans and Christians.

Not backward people who are half pagan.

[Keenir]

Humanism and ideas of equality don't exist??! What timeline are you from? :rolleyes:
This is the Renaissance, Psycho not the Dark ages.

its the early Renaissance....and even then, lesser people had to know their place.

[Aussey]

The Portugese didn't first come for slaves. They discovered the Conog region in the 1480's a while before the New World was discovered, let alone before Portugal began colonizing Brazil, and WAY before Portugal introduced Subsaharan African slavery to the New World. In the beginning, it is historical fact, that the Europeans regarded the Ethiopians and Black Catholics as equal Catholics. It wasn't until later times in slavery's high times that the Hamitic myth of African people being deemed by God to do the "white man's work," was revived. A

All I am saying is that there shouldn't be a debate over why the Spanish and the Neapolitans were interested in the area. If the Portugese can be, any Europeans can be. And it should be up to the natives of the region, on who can patronize them- if they are able to do so. And Kongo and Ndongo-Matamba WERE able to get themselves new patrons. No one is opposed to war, if Portugal is dead set on re-taking Congo-region Africa.

However, unless they have already started large-scale colonization and building plantations in the New World, which I don't think they have, they truly have no use for the region, atleast as far as I can see. Spain and Naples are interested in the ivory and newly-discovered diamond trade. If that's Portugal's reason as well, I can see a war, like I said.

1) Who patronizes Kongo, and who patronizes Ndongo?

A Spanish-Neapolitan alliance; More specifically, with a Spanish sphere-of-influence in Kongo, and a Neapolitan sphere-of-influence in Ndongo-Matamba.

2) Pace at which Europeanification can occur?

Honestly, if it is that big of a deal that a converted people are taking Catholic names and adopting Catholic customs for appearance purposes, we can stop that.

3) What will Portugal's reaction be if any of those patrons are not Portugal?

War, I'd assume.

Oh, and Glen- I don't believe I have used women almost at all. Yes, in making references to men's wives, and the king's daughters. But politcally? One woman. And if you read on Kongolese and the surronding regions' history, there were more women in the military and monarchy way before the Europeans caught on to it. Nzinga? The unnamed queen in Ndongo from when the Portugese first arrived in Kongo? I have actually toned it down to zero. I think you just need to read what I write, and you'll see that the women are actually playing no major roles at all.

[The Sicilian]

its the early Renaissance....and even then, lesser people had to know their place.
Nope, It's the begining of the late Renaissance. It is the 16th century, and the Renaissance lasted from the 14th through 17th centuries.

If European royalty considered Africans to be inferior at this time, why were the three kings depicted as Africas. There are many examples of Africans depicted in a postitive light in Renaissance art.

[Psychomeltdown]

And yet look at all they did in places they did take over.

Religion has a big thing to do with it, true. But Europeans in this time and age are not very nice people and their attitudes to people Not Them tend to be on the overly violent and murderous side.

Patronage isn't really up to the Kongo or Ndongo-Matamba, it's actually up to the people who will be coming there. Historically it has always been the Europeans that decided the fates of not quiet developed nations that tended to catch their eyes, not the other way around. It's a simple thing of more guns, different view on warfare, and the ability to project force to most places.

Dividing up Africa would be decided amongst the Europeans, if there is even thought of dividing up the place.

The question is would Spain and Naples be willing to engage in warfare for a tiny backward nation in Africa?

If Kongo or Ndongo-Matamba decide they don't want Portugal there and try to kick them out, it will be war. If they try to get European allies other than Portugal, then it'll be war.


Think of it in terms of the Mafia and the shopkeepers.

They are not conquered places, they are their own independent nations, but they're in the process of being squeezed for money and wealth, and if they don't pay up, then there'll be some hurting going on...

[Keenir]

If European royalty considered Africans to be inferior at this time, why were the three kings depicted as Africas. There are many examples of Africans depicted in a postitive light in Renaissance art.

I didn't say "lesser" = "Africans"...I meant "lesser" in the sense of anyone who ranked below nobility in Europe.

[The Sicilian]

I didn't say "lesser" = "Africans"...I meant "lesser" in the sense of anyone who ranked below nobility in Europe.
Your right, there was still a rigid feudal class structure in place. But European Catholic Nobles and African Catholic Nobles saw eye to eye.

[Aussey]

In the beginning, Europeans accepted even non-Christian dark-skinned monarchs as fellow monarchs of equal status.

Take this 14th century map

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c1/Mansa_Musa.jpg/300px-Mansa_Musa.jpg
A Catalan map made in 1373 showing the Mali Empire and describing Mansa Musa as "Lord of the Negroes"

[Psychomeltdown]

That may be true, but how long will they be seen as equals if they're shoved around and forced to pay tribute? The Portuguese are already on the road to seeing that Africans, especially Muslim africans, are pushovers, as they've managed to carve out chunks of real estate in East Africa.


All I'm saying is views change and although they may be equal and the may be catholic, they're still not really European and that's what counts for a lot.

[Aussey]

That may be true, but how long will they be seen as equals if they're shoved around and forced to pay tribute? The Portuguese are already on the road to seeing that Africans, especially Muslim africans, are pushovers, as they've managed to carve out chunks of real estate in East Africa.


All I'm saying is views change and although they may be equal and the may be catholic, they're still not really European and that's what counts for a lot.

Well, gee...don't try and make history change for the better in this timeline...

[The Sicilian]

That may be true, but how long will they be seen as equals if they're shoved around and forced to pay tribute? The Portuguese are already on the road to seeing that Africans, especially Muslim africans, are pushovers, as they've managed to carve out chunks of real estate in East Africa.


All I'm saying is views change and although they may be equal and the may be catholic, they're still not really European and that's what counts for a lot.
Okay, so the views change for the Portugese monarchs, who are attacking Muslim East Africans. The Italians and Spanish whom are actually having peaceful interactions with Catholic West Africans, will have a different perspective.

[Psychomeltdown]

Well, gee...don't try and make history change for the better in this timeline...
So.. the purpose of this was to make a Tl that's supposed to be better than OTL? Maybe in the long run, but not this close to the POD...
Okay, so the views change for the Portugese monarchs, who are attacking Muslim East Africans. The Italians and Spanish whom are actually having peaceful interactions with Catholic West Africans, will have a different perspective.
Aren't they not even having contact with them anymore, due to the whole Kongo/Cent. Africa thing being reshaped to the Ports being dominate there?

Plus I'm thinking the Spanish aren't the folks to be suddenly welcoming half pagan kings with open arms. They sure as hell didn't warmly welcome any of the monarchs in the New World as equals. the words to describe them were generally "They'll make good Catholics and good slaves".

Sadly you'll be looking at the same thought when Europeans come across any other people that aren't strong enough to force them to change their view of them, ie kicking their asses.

[Glen]

So.. the purpose of this was to make a Tl that's supposed to be better than OTL?

People have their own hopes for the timeline. Only time will tell....

Maybe in the long run, but not this close to the POD...

Agreed in general, though the seeds can start being planted.


Aren't they not even having contact with them anymore, due to the whole Kongo/Cent. Africa thing being reshaped to the Ports being dominate there?

Tough one. So far it appears as if they at least start with the Portuguese, making contact with the Spanish while Portuguese-Spanish relations were still good in the 1490s. By the 1500s it looks like they are seeking to get Spanish aide as the Portuguese-Spanish relations chill. At least that is my best interpretation of the muddle of things people have tried there.


Plus I'm thinking the Spanish aren't the folks to be suddenly welcoming half pagan kings with open arms. They sure as hell didn't warmly welcome any of the monarchs in the New World as equals. the words to describe them were generally "They'll make good Catholics and good slaves".

Sadly you'll be looking at the same thought when Europeans come across any other people that aren't strong enough to force them to change their view of them, ie kicking their asses.

Somewhat, but it depends on the people involved. For example, there is evidence to believe that the Ethiopians are viewed as more 'Christian' and civilized than other Subsaharan Africans were thought of.

[Keenir]

Somewhat, but it depends on the people involved. For example, there is evidence to believe that the Ethiopians are viewed as more 'Christian' and civilized than other Subsaharan Africans were thought of.

it helped that the Ethiopians were mistaken for Prester John.

though, this is, in part, why I've converted the San so early on: to give them less of a stumbling block in others' (Europeans') views of them.

[AJNolte]

It also partially depends on the monarchs. Their Catholic Majesties are very conservative. King Juan is less so, by a longshot.

[Psychomeltdown]

Agreed in general, though the seeds can start being planted. Yeah, but a lot of people are adhering to more romantic ideas of humanism and the renaissance that they should be.

Tough one. So far it appears as if they at least start with the Portuguese, making contact with the Spanish while Portuguese-Spanish relations were still good in the 1490s. By the 1500s it looks like they are seeking to get Spanish aide as the Portuguese-Spanish relations chill. At least that is my best interpretation of the muddle of things people have tried there.
Africa should be more in the Portuguese sphere of Influence, as they'be been there for the longest and have a highly vested interest in keeping others out...

At that early in the century would Spain be willing to go to war against Portugal for Africa? Especially after they just fought a war against 1. Granada, which hit them very hard financially, and then the mamelukes which would have also dug deeply into their pockets...

[AJNolte]

Yeah, but a lot of people are adhering to more romantic ideas of humanism and the renaissance that they should be.


Africa should be more in the Portuguese sphere of Influence, as they'be been there for the longest and have a highly vested interest in keeping others out...

At that early in the century would Spain be willing to go to war against Portugal for Africa? Especially after they just fought a war against 1. Granada, which hit them very hard financially, and then the mamelukes which would have also dug deeply into their pockets...

Nope.

We'll wait until 1520 or so, by which time our finances will be in better shape, you'll have pist off Aphonso thoroughly, a more liberal Spanish monarch will be on the throne and the French will be greedily eyeing up your slice of the North American pie.

Anyway, that's what I'm thinking Spain would do. Portugal's gotten very high-handed with us very quickly. We're just waiting for the opportunity for some payback.

[Psychomeltdown]

We'll wait until 1520 or so, by which time our finances will be in better shape, you'll have pist off Aphonso thoroughly, a more liberal Spanish monarch will be on the throne and the French will be greedily eyeing up your slice of the North American pie.
Spain would have to take a nose dive in the military department and foreign adventures before it could be become more stable financially. You've basically fought two largish wars before 1500 and even before that Spain was toward the bottom of the Financial totem pole. Added upon that you've been saying they've been maintaining a large military which means they've been using up capital and money that would have otherwise kept Spain more financially secure.

Portugal has no claims in North America. But they do claim south America, as they were the first there and like all good explorers, raised the flag over it.

Anyway, that's what I'm thinking Spain would do. Portugal's gotten very high-handed with us very quickly. We're just waiting for the opportunity for some payback.
Actually I think there have been little to no interaction with Spain since Manoel married Mary Tudor. They've made no moves against any of its colonial possessions and the main thing I've been complaining about is the arrival of Spain and Naples in Africa, which is clearly a Portuguese controlled area.

[Glen]

Yeah, but a lot of people are adhering to more romantic ideas of humanism and the renaissance that they should be.

Probably.

Africa should be more in the Portuguese sphere of Influence, as they'be been there for the longest and have a highly vested interest in keeping others out...

At that early in the century would Spain be willing to go to war against Portugal for Africa? Especially after they just fought a war against 1. Granada, which hit them very hard financially, and then the mamelukes which would have also dug deeply into their pockets...

Well, time will tell. Eventually the Protuguese will face challenges to their dominion, I imagine.

As for war with Spain, when you put it that way....:rolleyes:

[Glen]

Cut this bit out from the 1497 entry as a bit too grand. Might consider adding it back in at a later date, however.

I'll put it here.

King Emmanuel orders the construction of a seminary to train Ndongolese men to be priests in the Ndongolese capital of Kabassa. Mass baptisms are beginning to be held daily in the rivers.

[Glen]

Cut this bit out from the 1498 posting. No Kongolese priests yet IMO.

At the request of the Queen, King João I of Kongo sends several Kongolese priests to the capital city of Matamba. The expelled Portuguese are welcomed by in Ndongo.