1493 Reformation Discussion

[The Sicilian]

John has given me control over the Papacy so this would help me a lot to formulate a Papal response; Please repost all posts relating to the Protestant Reformation (or whatever it is called in ATL) here.

[Keenir]

John has given me control over the Papacy so this would help me a lot to formulate a Papal response; Please repost all posts relating to the Protestant Reformation (or whatever it is called in ATL) here.

December 1513: Emperor Ahmed signs his name alongside the Catholic and Orthodox patriarchs of Constantinople, who have penned a letter of question to the originator of the Fredericksburg Decree; their question: what status do Eastern Christians have in this Fredericksburg, and are they as well invited to settle?
1517 April - Emperor Ahmed, aboard the best ship in the Ottoman navy, sails to Naples (the vast majority of Ottoman naval ships are in attendance),

1517 late June - Emperor Ahmed and the fleet sail up to Rome.
1517 July - As the well-armed fleet waits offshore, Ahmed and the Patriarchs of Orthodoxy and Catholocism journey to Rome. Historians of the day might recall that the last time a Turkish lord visited Rome, it was none other than Attila.
(so if Ahmed dies, Rome is in deep...well, you can guess) :)

Ahmed is in Rome to discuss with the Patriarchs and Pope about the recent developments ("reforms") of the Orthodox and Catholic communities to their respective norths. Of course, not everyone knows that that's the reason for his being there.

[AJNolte]

Well, the death of the Holy Roman Emperor and the possible Spanish-Portuguese war may actually shove some of this to the background, but here's the precipitating event.

1517: Bertholt of Mainz dies, and is replaced by Henry Wettin, making him the highest authority in the German church. He is replaced in Trier by a friend
of his, Johann vonStaupitz.
1519: Henry Wettin orders an immediate cesasion of the sale of indulgences within Germany. When asked to defend his actions by the Pope, Wettin writes
his "Treatise on the Righteousness of God and Man", in which he claims that all righteousness which man possesses must come as a gift from God through
Christ alone, and that, while it is the place of the church to uphold good doctrine and teaching and lead people to Christ, that salvation belongs to Christ
Alone. Wettin quotes heavily from Augustine and other church fathers.
1520: Wettin's actions cause great controversy in the papacy, as theologians and cannon lawyers scramble to refute (and in a few cases confirm) his arguments.
Stunningly forceful and popular polemics on Wettin's behalf are written, in German for mass consumption, by Martin Luther, and more scholarly stayed works
are written by Melanchthon and Staupitz. Throughout Germany, the Wettinite ideas grow in popularity, and are combined with calls for a German liturgy,
German Bibles and a violent reaction against hyper-scholasticism. Henry Wettin gets behind these reforms, quickly called the Evangelical Reform Concord
officially and the Wettinite Manifesto unofficially. Duke Frederick of Saxony, Philip the Elector Palatine, the Duke of Mecklenburg and notables within
the Wendish Federation also get behind the Wettinite movement, and many of the secular lords press for reforms within the Holy Roman Empire such as a universal
diet, not unlike the estates in Saxony or the council in the Wendish Federation, which can both help better organize the empire and potentially check the
power of the Emperor. (note: I need to know if Maximillian is still alive).
The papacy will respond...next week.

[Keenir]

1508 - Marriage of Barbara, daughter of Philip the Upright, Elector of the Palatine.

1509 - Marriage of Helene, daughter of Philip the Upright, Elector of the Palatine.

Marrying two of his daughters to the biggest patriarchs of the Rhenish free cities helps, but just as big (if not a bigger) factor was the Elector’s ordering the construction (on his nickel) of new/repaired churches for all those cities who wished one built/repaired (the ‘/’ denotes, basically, “whichever was more in need”)…The end result is the free cities come under Philip’s umbrella of protective authority.

At the final meeting of the Thirds (the Wendish, Rhenish, Teutonic Knights) before the dawn of the 1510 decade, Philip assures the heads of the Hansa that these cities are still free cities. The churches and cathedrals built and repaired, mind, are staunchly pro-Papacy, pointedly denouncing the teachings of Wettin.

[marl_d]

July 1507-1509: Nil Sorsky decides to start evangelizing to the peasants. He tells his “Sorskivtes” that he will be leaving for the Russian countryside teaching, preaching, living off what the Lord provides. He does not ask any of them to follow him, but would not reject any company. A small band of 20 set out to preach the about reforming and going back to a simpler, apostleistic approach to God.

This move is at first seen as a bit of a joke by the Hierarchy, particularly Joseph Volotsky, until Sorskivites gain strength through the peasant population and lower clergy. Hoping to crush the heresy, the Josephineians start a smear campaign against Sorsky and his followers.

During this time, the Sorskivtes develop the reformations basic doctrines, while most don’t differ from the Orthodox, such as the Trinity, Iconography, the Resurrection, the infallibility of the Bible and the Orthodoxy’s idea’s on “Sola scriptura”, some do. They belive that an Individual's only way to God is through ones own inner world and personal emotional experiences of faith, monks should use their time for productive labor, a modest lifestyle as well as going about seeing to the needs of the sick and poor, and not keeping themselves secluded.

A group of Sorskivites takes it upon themselves to start learning what they can to treat the sick and heal using Christ as an example. They also glean what they can from Local healers and star experimenting with different cures for various ailments

[AJNolte]

Keep in mind that the Wendish Federation is at least modestly pro-Wettinite.1508 - Marriage of Barbara, daughter of Philip the Upright, Elector of the Palatine.

1509 - Marriage of Helene, daughter of Philip the Upright, Elector of the Palatine.

Marrying two of his daughters to the biggest patriarchs of the Rhenish free cities helps, but just as big (if not a bigger) factor was the Elector’s ordering the construction (on his nickel) of new/repaired churches for all those cities who wished one built/repaired (the ‘/’ denotes, basically, “whichever was more in need”)…The end result is the free cities come under Philip’s umbrella of protective authority.

At the final meeting of the Thirds (the Wendish, Rhenish, Teutonic Knights) before the dawn of the 1510 decade, Philip assures the heads of the Hansa that these cities are still free cities. The churches and cathedrals built and repaired, mind, are staunchly pro-Papacy, pointedly denouncing the teachings of Wettin.

[AJNolte]

1519: Frederick von Saxon is deeply torn. On the one hand, Henry Wettin is his brother, and reform is deeply needed. However, Frederick fears to weaken the papacy. After contacting his brother Henry (who is still somewhat surprised that his 'little book' caused so much controversy), Frederick sends a letter to the Pope calling for a council to determine the rightness of these matters. He suggests that it be convened in Jerusalem as soon as practicable, and assures His Holiness that his brother has no intention of taking the German church outside the Papal fold. A similar letter comes from John Wettin, now the grand commander of the Lange of Germany in the Knights Hospitaler. Thomas Docwra, grand master of the order, supports his lange commander in the need for a council.

[RCTFI]

Well, the death of the Holy Roman Emperor and the possible Spanish-Portuguese war may actually shove some of this to the background, but here's the precipitating event.

1517: Bertholt of Mainz dies, and is replaced by Henry Wettin, making him the highest authority in the German church. He is replaced in Trier by a friend
of his, Johann vonStaupitz.
1519: Henry Wettin orders an immediate cesasion of the sale of indulgences within Germany. When asked to defend his actions by the Pope, Wettin writes
his "Treatise on the Righteousness of God and Man", in which he claims that all righteousness which man possesses must come as a gift from God through
Christ alone, and that, while it is the place of the church to uphold good doctrine and teaching and lead people to Christ, that salvation belongs to Christ
Alone. Wettin quotes heavily from Augustine and other church fathers.
1520: Wettin's actions cause great controversy in the papacy, as theologians and cannon lawyers scramble to refute (and in a few cases confirm) his arguments.
Stunningly forceful and popular polemics on Wettin's behalf are written, in German for mass consumption, by Martin Luther, and more scholarly stayed works
are written by Melanchthon and Staupitz. Throughout Germany, the Wettinite ideas grow in popularity, and are combined with calls for a German liturgy,
German Bibles and a violent reaction against hyper-scholasticism. Henry Wettin gets behind these reforms, quickly called the Evangelical Reform Concord
officially and the Wettinite Manifesto unofficially. Duke Frederick of Saxony, Philip the Elector Palatine, the Duke of Mecklenburg and notables within
the Wendish Federation also get behind the Wettinite movement, and many of the secular lords press for reforms within the Holy Roman Empire such as a universal
diet, not unlike the estates in Saxony or the council in the Wendish Federation, which can both help better organize the empire and potentially check the
power of the Emperor. (note: I need to know if Maximillian is still alive).
The papacy will respond...next week.

Well, Maximilian I will still be alive, but he will probably actually pretty much agree with the Reforms proposed, although there might be some theological squabbling - he's under the sway of Heinrich Schneider, another pro-reform priest. So, he could go along with you guys...

[AJNolte]

Well, Maximilian I will still be alive, but he will probably actually pretty much agree with the Reforms proposed, although there might be some theological squabbling - he's under the sway of Heinrich Schneider, another pro-reform priest. So, he could go along with you guys...

Where is Schneider on the justification issue? As for internal HRE reforms; we ought to do that as well. Perhaps a conclave of electors to see if we can reform the empire?
Maxi's having an extended life I see. Probably to the good; a succession crisis would muddle things greatly.

[Psychomeltdown]

Manoel I might be willing to support/embrace these new reforms, since he'll see the Chruch's heavy use of excommunication as more of them interfering in temporal matters.

[AJNolte]

Manoel I might be willing to support/embrace these new reforms, since he'll see the Chruch's heavy use of excommunication as more of them interfering in temporal matters.

Was wondering how long that was going to take.
You should steal John Calvin for the Portuguese church. The results would be...interesting.
Protestant Portugal. Interesting twist.

[marl_d]

one thing we haven't talked about is the Bible being printed in the local languages, that was a HUGE part of the reformation movement and the Papacy's desire to suppress it at any coast. maybe having Manuel support the Bible's printing in Portuguese be a big reason for the Pope to excommunicate him

[Glen]

Temporarily locking until we finish getting through the timeline review. Will move over events already here for comment as we hit those times.

[Glen]

Temporarily locking until we finish getting through the timeline review. Will move over events already here for comment as we hit those times.

Unlocking this thread so people may help with the timeline review.

[AJNolte]

Here's the next projected event:
1520-1521: the Council of Rome meets to discuss the Wettinite Manifesto. Three issues are uppermost: the printing of the Bible in local languages and the acceptance of local language rites, the question of justification by faith alone and the matter of indulgences.
The positions of my major players on these three issues:
Henry Wettin: supports all three.
Frederick von Saxon: supports all three.
Frederick the Elector: supports all three.
Wendish Federation: supports all three.
Cajitan: supports the abolition of indulgences. Disagrees with the Wettinites on justification. Nutral on the question of native language rites, though argues that the Latin mass must at least be retained.
The current Pope: disagrees (I think?) on all three, but not strongly enough to break up the church or excommunicate Wettin.
Clergy of Navarre: supportive of the language rites and scripture, divided on the other two.
Their Catholic Majesties: oppose all three vehemently.
Juan of Asturias: supports the abolition of indulgences, is still studying the justification issue, supportive of the retention of the Latin mass to the exclusion of all other rites.

A breakdown of other people's views on these issues would be helpful.
If enough people side with the Pope/push him into it, he may excommunicate Wettin I think.

[Glen]

I'll break your three into four for my answer: Bibles printed in local language, liturgy in local language, justification by faith, indulgences.

Scotland, hard to say, but as James IVth is a renaissance man, I'll say aye to all.

Arthurian England is in favor of local language bibles, neutral on liturgy, against justification by faith alone (Arthur favors good deeds), and against indulgences.

Savoy is pretty conservative, so no to all.

Switzerland is pretty much neutral on all.;)

I think those are the main players in Europe whose opinion would tend to matter.

Here's the next projected event:
1520-1521: the Council of Rome meets to discuss the Wettinite Manifesto. Three issues are uppermost: the printing of the Bible in local languages and the acceptance of local language rites, the question of justification by faith alone and the matter of indulgences.
The positions of my major players on these three issues:
Henry Wettin: supports all three.
Frederick von Saxon: supports all three.
Frederick the Elector: supports all three.
Wendish Federation: supports all three.
Cajitan: supports the abolition of indulgences. Disagrees with the Wettinites on justification. Nutral on the question of native language rites, though argues that the Latin mass must at least be retained.
The current Pope: disagrees (I think?) on all three, but not strongly enough to break up the church or excommunicate Wettin.
Clergy of Navarre: supportive of the language rites and scripture, divided on the other two.
Their Catholic Majesties: oppose all three vehemently.
Juan of Asturias: supports the abolition of indulgences, is still studying the justification issue, supportive of the retention of the Latin mass to the exclusion of all other rites.

A breakdown of other people's views on these issues would be helpful.
If enough people side with the Pope/push him into it, he may excommunicate Wettin I think.

[AJNolte]

I'll break your three into four for my answer: Bibles printed in local language, liturgy in local language, justification by faith, indulgences.

Scotland, hard to say, but as James IVth is a renaissance man, I'll say aye to all.

Arthurian England is in favor of local language bibles, neutral on liturgy, against justification by faith alone (Arthur favors good deeds), and against indulgences.

Savoy is pretty conservative, so no to all.

Switzerland is pretty much neutral on all.;)

I think those are the main players in Europe whose opinion would tend to matter.


I actually like your breakdown better.

Arthur's position seems close to Cajitan. James is a Wettinite, Savoy will be on the Papal/Catolic Majesties wave length.

This is going to be one dicey church council.

What say the Genoese?

[Keenir]

Here's the next projected event:
1520-1521: the Council of Rome meets to discuss the Wettinite Manifesto. Three issues are uppermost: the printing of the Bible in local languages and the acceptance of local language rites, the question of justification by faith alone and the matter of indulgences.

Louis XII of France - against the printing & rites in local languages, and mildly in favor of indulgences since France isn't bankrupted by the Italian Wars (but push him on it, and he'll be staunchly pro-indulgence), and only mildly against justification by faith (he's willing to go neutral, if the political and astrological winds favor it)

Elector Philip of the Palatine - mildly against indulgences, strongly against justification by faith alone, willing to toe the Papal line on the remaining issues.

Mantua - not sure, but they'll back their Alpine allies, regardless.

Venice - not sure...then again, not sure they'd be invited, given the loyalties of Venetian Catholic priests. (Venice first, St Peters second)

[The Sicilian]

Alphonso III of Naples is privatly open to mass held in the local language, but he doesn't press the issue. He doesn't care very much for theological debates.

[AJNolte]

Now that we've got a sense of where people stand, let's see if we can't read the tea leaves on how this is all going to work out.

As I see it, there are four possibilities:
1. Wettin's entire program is rejected and he is excommunicated.
2. Wettin's program is partially accepted, but he and the traditionalists can't agree or agree to disagree on the justification issue (or maybe some others) and a breech still occurs.
3. Wettin's program is partially accepted, and the church agrees to leave the other issues open to local bishops. The unity of the church is maintained, though it is a bit more hollow than was previously the case (this will probably be a version of Cajitan's position).
4. A regional approach is taken to the whole set of issues. The church becomes a losely-connected communion bound by the eucharist and nominal allegiance to the Bishop of Rome.

I honestly can't see Wettin's manifesto being accepted lock, stock and barrel.
You might see a highly Wettinite church in most of the HRE (save the Palatinate which will be more traditional), and perhaps Scotland, with varying degrees of reform in varying lands and extreme traditionalism in France and (for a time) Spain.

[Keenir]

Now that we've got a sense of where people stand, let's see if we can't read the tea leaves on how this is all going to work out.

I honestly can't see Wettin's manifesto being accepted lock, stock and barrel.
You might see a highly Wettinite church in most of the HRE (save the Palatinate which will be more traditional), and perhaps Scotland, with varying degrees of reform in varying lands and extreme traditionalism in France and (for a time) Spain.

maybe this will help: in OTL, how is the Eastern Rite of the Roman Catholic Church treated by the main body of Catholocism?

[Psychomeltdown]

Well, if anything goes awry with Wettin and co. I'm sure Manoel will be willing to offer some sanctuary for them. If things continue to go bad between the Church and Portugal and if he does get excommunicated...


It would make Portugal a religiously torn place...

[AJNolte]

Well, if anything goes awry with Wettin and co. I'm sure Manoel will be willing to offer some sanctuary for them. If things continue to go bad between the Church and Portugal and if he does get excommunicated...


It would make Portugal a religiously torn place...

The Wettinites have pretty solid backing/sanctuary throught much of the HRE, but thanks anyway.

Where is Manuel on the four issues (local language bibles, local language liturgy, justification, indulgences)? What of the Portuguese church?

[Keenir]

The Wettinites have pretty solid backing/sanctuary throught much of the HRE, but thanks anyway.

'much of the HRE'? is the Palatine the only one going "wha the - Hussites, round two, already?" ?
:)


seriously, what of the Hussites (or their kin the Taborites) in this ATL?

[AJNolte]

'much of the HRE'? is the Palatine the only one going "wha the - Hussites, round two, already?" ?
:)


seriously, what of the Hussites (or their kin the Taborites) in this ATL?

Accept for the little salient fact that Henry Wettin is Archbishop-Elector of Mainz, the equivalent, in the HRE, of archbishop of Canterbury. Not to mention that the chaplain to the Emperor himself could be considered at least a partial wettinite.

Yes, the Elector Palatine is, at the very least, in the minority on this issue within the HRE.

[Keenir]

Except for the little salient fact that Henry Wettin is Archbishop-Elector of Mainz, the equivalent, in the HRE, of archbishop of Canterbury.

:rolleyes: ignoring the fact that Archbishops have been known to be sacked. ;)

Not to mention that the chaplain to the Emperor himself could be considered at least a partial wettinite.

so he's at risk of losing his job.

Yes, the Elector Palatine is, at the very least, in the minority on this issue within the HRE.

*sigh* please, ask yourself: WHY? the Holy Roman Empire hasn't even finished getting rid of the Hussites, France not too long ago got rid of the Cathars, and the Lollards in England...

so, given all that religious history...why? why is this guy {Wettin} being feted(sp) so much?
(given that the Emperor himself has a Wettinite in his household, wouldn't that make the dukes and princes less likely to adopt Wettinism?)

question: do my concerns make sense?

[AJNolte]

:rolleyes: ignoring the fact that Archbishops have been known to be sacked. ;)



so he's at risk of losing his job.



*sigh* please, ask yourself: WHY? the Holy Roman Empire hasn't even finished getting rid of the Hussites, France not too long ago got rid of the Cathars, and the Lollards in England...

so, given all that religious history...why? why is this guy {Wettin} being feted(sp) so much?
(given that the Emperor himself has a Wettinite in his household, wouldn't that make the dukes and princes less likely to adopt Wettinism?)

question: do my concerns make sense?

1. The Archbishop of Mainz is a little hard to sack, as I've specified. He's also an elector of the HRE and cousin to your son-in-law Frederick of Saxony. Jan Huss, by comparison, was a humble parish priest (only by comparison).
Heinrich Schneider the reformer was established by RCTFI, and Maxi can't just sack him. He had to take him into his household to avert a rebellion.
3. Remember that the Hussite/Lollard controversy started over some highly controversial thological discussions (Wycliffe's predestination was even more platonic and rigid than Calvin's for example). The Wettinite controversy started with his abolition of indulgences throughout the HRE, a reform which most of the West thinks is about due. His treatise on justification not only stems from that, but explicitly sights and quotes Augustine (there has not, as of this point, been anything like Sola Scriptura, just a push for native-language Bibles and liturgy, which most of the German princes and clergy support anyway).

Let's put this another way. Luther was a middle-class monk and wild-eyed theology professor. Wettin is a fairly serious, and highly-regarded, bishop, and the son of one of the most influential noble lines in Germany. There's considerable debate within the Vatican as to whether Wettin can or should be excommunicated and a sneaking suspicion that he might just be right on all or most counts.
And the Cathars were (A) largely smashed in the 1230s and (B) totally different from any form of Protestantism.

[Keenir]

And the Cathars were (A) largely smashed in the 1230s and (B)

I used Wiki as a source. :rolleyes:

totally different from any form of Protestantism.

I'll remember that when San Christianity comes washing over the shores of Europe. :D;)


ps: but did my questions/objections make sense?

[AJNolte]

I used Wiki as a source. :rolleyes:



I'll remember that when San Christianity comes washing over the shores of Europe. :D;)


ps: but did my questions/objections make sense?

I can see fear of the Hussites making parts of the HRE (namely the Hapsburgs) nervous about Wettin, accept RCTFI has already said they aren't. I can definitely see Lollardy making King Arthur a bit nervous about the Wettinites. I'm not convinced that the French will start freaking out until the radical reformation gets here, particularly with humanism.

BTW: with the wars in the Netherlands, I think it likely that Erasmus goes to France. And with Wettinism being somewhat more mild than Lutheranism, I could see Erasmus as more sympathetic (though he and Luther will still have their intermural quarrels).

So, partially yes, definitely yes and not really, respectively.

[Keenir]

I can see fear of the Hussites making parts of the HRE (namely the Hapsburgs) nervous about Wettin, accept RCTFI has already said they aren't.

all you had to do was say they weren't. (apologies if you did say so)

btw, in relation to the Palatine and such, where is Moravia?

BTW: with the wars in the Netherlands, I think it likely that Erasmus goes to France. And with Wettinism being somewhat more mild than Lutheranism, I could see Erasmus as more sympathetic (though he and Luther will still have their intermural quarrels).

good.

though...the Palatine or Venice would be acceptible places for Erasmus. (not sure if he'd feel comfortable in Mantua)

yeah, Venice. surrounded by heretics*, he'd be very staunch. so definately, could whomever has the Netherlands please send Pastor Erasmus Egildeg** to Venice.

* = Orthodox, Armenians, and probably others.
** = medieval Frisian name, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Medieval_Frisian_Given_Names

[Glen]

all you had to do was say they weren't. (apologies if you did say so)

btw, in relation to the Palatine and such, where is Moravia?

good.

though...the Palatine or Venice would be acceptible places for Erasmus. (not sure if he'd feel comfortable in Mantua)

yeah, Venice. surrounded by heretics*, he'd be very staunch. so definately, could whomever has the Netherlands please send Pastor Erasmus Egildeg** to Venice.

* = Orthodox, Armenians, and probably others.
** = medieval Frisian name, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Medieval_Frisian_Given_Names

Why would Erasmus end up in Venice? Note also everyone that OTL's Erasmus was very careful to avoid being entangled with any one nation or government, turning down honors and offers to remain free to write and critique. He's not likely to settle down anywhere permanently.

While Erasmus was born in Rotterdam, he appears to have been there not that long. France is where he appears to be living at the time of the Great Divergence.

[The Sicilian]

What is San Christianity? :confused:

[Keenir]

Why would Erasmus end up in Venice? Note also everyone that OTL's Erasmus was very careful to avoid being entangled with any one nation or government, turning down honors and offers to remain free to write and critique. He's not likely to settle down anywhere permanently.

While Erasmus was born in Rotterdam, he appears to have been there not that long. France is where he appears to be living at the time of the Great Divergence.

I didn't know there was a historical Erasmus at this time. (the only one I know of is Charles Darwin's grandfather)

I created this Erasmus to be a rallying point and a rival in debates with Luthor...Luther.

What is San Christianity? :confused:

excellent question, my friend.

San Christianity is a denomination which combines Catholocism with the social traditions of the San bushmen. (ie, no boasting or bragging, communal property if any property at all, recognize no king {save for Christ}*)

I created San Christianity offline (and have been building it online in little posts, a bit at a time) way before adopting Venice.

and believe me when I say that San Christianity is even more reformed than the Wettinites. (Wettinites, in their view, are Catholics who haven't done anything more than change the color of the altar cloths) :cool:

* = however, if given patronage, say by Portugal or someone with access to the San heartland, they might be willing to make an exception.

[AJNolte]

I didn't know there was a historical Erasmus at this time. (the only one I know of is Charles Darwin's grandfather)

I created this Erasmus to be a rallying point and a rival in debates with Luthor...Luther.



excellent question, my friend.

San Christianity is a denomination which combines Catholocism with the social traditions of the San bushmen. (ie, no boasting or bragging, communal property if any property at all, recognize no king {save for Christ}*)

I created San Christianity offline (and have been building it online in little posts, a bit at a time) way before adopting Venice.

and believe me when I say that San Christianity is even more reformed than the Wettinites. (Wettinites, in their view, are Catholics who haven't done anything more than change the color of the altar cloths) :cool:

* = however, if given patronage, say by Portugal or someone with access to the San heartland, they might be willing to make an exception.

Yes, there was a historical Erasmus, who actually preceded Luther OTL and wrote 'In Praise of Folly'. He also translated the New Testament directly from the Greek. Interesting guy. I can't remember if he was ordained or not.

[The Sicilian]

excellent question, my friend.

San Christianity is a denomination which combines Catholocism with the social traditions of the San bushmen. (ie, no boasting or bragging, communal property if any property at all, recognize no king {save for Christ}*)

I created San Christianity offline (and have been building it online in little posts, a bit at a time) way before adopting Venice.

and believe me when I say that San Christianity is even more reformed than the Wettinites. (Wettinites, in their view, are Catholics who haven't done anything more than change the color of the altar cloths) :cool:

* = however, if given patronage, say by Portugal or someone with access to the San heartland, they might be willing to make an exception.
:eek:

When did missionaries penetrate the Kalahari???
I'm not saying that it isn't interesting (which it is), but you are going a bit fast there. And if I read your posts about Venice correctly, you have them active in Europe?!

[Keenir]

When did missionaries penetrate the Kalahari???

only one missionary, tossed off a Portugese ship.

early on...in the first decade post-divergence, I believe. he was a convert to the Knights of Rhodes; in OTL, he either died early in battle, or was never noteworthy enough to be written about. in this ATL, with DAubusson's activities, he survived.


I'm not saying that it isn't interesting (which it is), but you are going a bit fast there. And if I read your posts about Venice correctly, you have them active in Europe?!

after several decades in Africa, yes, creating the denomination.

[RCTFI]

In this situation, the Emperor will actually be pretty willing to back the Wettinites - Heinrich Schneider, his personal chaplain, is pretty much a (very slightly) more extreme Wettinite - except for some little bits, he basically agrees with their doctrine. He is also, by the way, extremely hostile towards the idea of selling indulgences. However, he is a priest and he has a tendency to, where the Pope is concerned, believe that he's a great guy and that if he just has someone explain the problem to him he'll come around. Needless to say, this could get interesting...

Oh, and as for problems with the Hussite legacy etc., in this TL, the Emperor is doing much worse in the little wars that have replaced the Italian Wars - he was having trouble holding down his own home ground, and has lost a lot of territory to the Swiss Confederation. He had to adopt Heinrich Schneider's ideas to prevent the loss of Wien and some other territory to a new rebelion.

[AJNolte]

In this situation, the Emperor will actually be pretty willing to back the Wettinites - Heinrich Schneider, his personal chaplain, is pretty much a (very slightly) more extreme Wettinite - except for some little bits, he basically agrees with their doctrine. He is also, by the way, extremely hostile towards the idea of selling indulgences. However, he is a priest and he has a tendency to, where the Pope is concerned, believe that he's a great guy and that if he just has someone explain the problem to him he'll come around. Needless to say, this could get interesting...

Oh, and as for problems with the Hussite legacy etc., in this TL, the Emperor is doing much worse in the little wars that have replaced the Italian Wars - he was having trouble holding down his own home ground, and has lost a lot of territory to the Swiss Confederation. He had to adopt Heinrich Schneider's ideas to prevent the loss of Wien and some other territory to a new rebelion.

How're the Hapsburgs looking for successors?
I could see Frederick being willing to support the next Hapsburg prince as HRE were he willing to establish Wettinism.
ITTL Wettinism hasn't gotten into issues like sola scriptura, destruction of relics, etc, so Frederick is a whole-hearted supporter. The furthest they've gone toward Sola Scriptura is a call for local language Bibles.
So: Messiniano: who is the Pope at the time, and what does he think of all this?

[The Sicilian]

The pope is Innocent X, previously Roberto Carafa. The Carafa's were a powerful Neapolitan family, so he supports the King wherever he can (e.g. Portugal). He is a staunch anti-Wettinite I would assume. AJ is handling the spiritual aspects of the Papacy, so if you wan't a more in-depth analysis of his theological beliefs then talk to him.

[AJNolte]

The pope is Innocent X, previously Roberto Carafa. The Carafa's were a powerful Neapolitan family, so he supports the King wherever he can (e.g. Portugal). He is a staunch anti-Wettinite I would assume. AJ is handling the spiritual aspects of the Papacy, so if you wan't a more in-depth analysis of his theological beliefs then talk to him.

Actually, we may have a rather interesting situation with Pope Innocent (thanks: couldn't remember who he was and wto whom he was related).
As of the Babylonian Captivity, the Pope was declared supreme even over church councils. I could actually see Innocent refusing to call a council.
This would cause a problem, as there seems to be a lot of support for it generally. The question is (and I'm not sure which one of us was handling this aspect), what's Innocent's personality like? Is he a dogmatist or a conciliator? Will he want to appease the Wettinites for the sake of unity in the church, or blast them to smitherines for the sake of preserving papal infallibility.
Hmm, let me think about theology. Well, he could well be a renaissance man, as Naples seems to have been opening up a bit culturally. As such, I could see him being sympathetic to the local language issues. I'm assuming he's at least moderately scholastic, so opposed to the Wettinites on justification. And since he made Henry Wettin justify his ban on indulgences, let's assume he wants to keep them.

The reason I'm trying to be so careful here is that I personally have a lot of sympathy with the Wettinites and wouldn't mind seeing their views dominate the Catholic church. So I'm trying to avoid unduly prejudicing events in that direction. On the other hand, I understand that we need to move the reformation along so we can move the parts of the TL which it effects along.

[Glen]

The pope is Innocent X, previously Roberto Carafa. The Carafa's were a powerful Neapolitan family, so he supports the King wherever he can (e.g. Portugal). He is a staunch anti-Wettinite I would assume. AJ is handling the spiritual aspects of the Papacy, so if you wan't a more in-depth analysis of his theological beliefs then talk to him.

Who is Roberto Carafa? I can find reference to the family, but not Roberto. Is he OTL? If not, he's a bit too early to be introducing new people as pope. We should be able to find plenty of OTL Carafa.

On a completely different note, I'd like to find something meaningful for Bernardo Clesio to do within the Vatican hierarchy. He's not a man to be wasted, but I have to have him out of Trentino for a time. Maybe some position in the Curia? He'd make a great Cardinal, btw....

[Glen]

Actually, we may have a rather interesting situation with Pope Innocent (thanks: couldn't remember who he was and wto whom he was related).
As of the Babylonian Captivity, the Pope was declared supreme even over church councils. I could actually see Innocent refusing to call a council.
This would cause a problem, as there seems to be a lot of support for it generally. The question is (and I'm not sure which one of us was handling this aspect), what's Innocent's personality like? Is he a dogmatist or a conciliator? Will he want to appease the Wettinites for the sake of unity in the church, or blast them to smitherines for the sake of preserving papal infallibility.
Hmm, let me think about theology. Well, he could well be a renaissance man, as Naples seems to have been opening up a bit culturally. As such, I could see him being sympathetic to the local language issues. I'm assuming he's at least moderately scholastic, so opposed to the Wettinites on justification. And since he made Henry Wettin justify his ban on indulgences, let's assume he wants to keep them.

The reason I'm trying to be so careful here is that I personally have a lot of sympathy with the Wettinites and wouldn't mind seeing their views dominate the Catholic church. So I'm trying to avoid unduly prejudicing events in that direction. On the other hand, I understand that we need to move the reformation along so we can move the parts of the TL which it effects along.

Big question I have is, who is Roberto Carafa?

If he is an OTL historical figure, we can get some idea of his likely position, perhaps.

Also, I suggest we post the Wettinite question in Discussion and get opinions as to the likely Church response.

[The Sicilian]

Oops, I misspoke :o

Roberto was a OFC that I was writing events for that were skewed by the Portugese war.

It is actually Alessando Carafa, the Archbishop of Naples from 1484 to 1505 OTL. He is a relativly obscure figue IOTL, so we can have some creativity with his personality (especially with the lack of the Italian wars).

[AJNolte]

Big question I have is, who is Roberto Carafa?

If he is an OTL historical figure, we can get some idea of his likely position, perhaps.

Also, I suggest we post the Wettinite question in Discussion and get opinions as to the likely Church response.

Yes, that's a good idea. Would you mind doing this?
As for your would-be cardinal: can you post a wiki link or something, just for general info? I'm sure Messiniano and I can use him.

[Keenir]

Hmm, let me think about theology. Well, he could well be a renaissance man, as Naples seems to have been opening up a bit culturally. As such, I could see him being sympathetic to the local language issues.

um...being from Naples, isn't his "native language a lot closer to Latin than German and English are?

so his idea of "native language" might not be Wettin's idea of it.

[Keenir]

It is actually Alessando Carafa, the Archbishop of Naples from 1484 to 1505 OTL. He is a relativly obscure figue IOTL, so we can have some creativity with his personality (especially with the lack of the Italian wars).

um, this close to the divergence, shouldn't we stick with OTL Popes?

though, with the lack of Italian Wars*, wouldn't he be less afraid of being toppled? thus less inclined to treat with those who challenge his infallability?

* = ever, it seems.

[The Sicilian]

um, this close to the divergence, shouldn't we stick with OTL Popes?

though, with the lack of Italian Wars*, wouldn't he be less afraid of being toppled? thus less inclined to treat with those who challenge his infallability?

* = ever, it seems.
Why would we do that? Especially after no Italian wars and Alexander living several years longer?

[RCTFI]

At that point, Maximilian I is the Emperor, and he is basically going to live a little longer than he did OTLy, with roughly OTL succession problems. I've been thinking about someone other than the Hapsburgs getting the Emperorship, but that's really still in the air. Glen will be running the HRE for me for the next four weeks while I'm going to be in a situation where access to an internet connection will be unlikely and difficult. As a note, he's agreed to continue my path of support for Wettinism, although he will, of course, have a lot of latitude in what he chooses to do, since i'm basically going to be gone for four weeks.

[Keenir]

At that point, Maximilian I is the Emperor, and he is basically going to live a little longer than he did OTLy, with roughly OTL succession problems. I've been thinking about someone other than the Hapsburgs getting the Emperorship, but that's really still in the air. Glen will be running the HRE for me for the next four weeks while I'm going to be in a situation where access to an internet connection will be unlikely and difficult. As a note, he's agreed to continue my path of support for Wettinism, although he will, of course, have a lot of latitude in what he chooses to do, since i'm basically going to be gone for four weeks.

have fun and be careful. stay safe & be well.

[Keenir]

Why would we do that? Especially after no Italian wars and Alexander living several years longer?

so, in OTL, Alexander's successor was chosen only because of the Italian Wars? :confused:
(that's the impression I got from your question - that everything is out the window now...despite the College of Cardinals still having next to identical membership after a mere 10 years)

[The Sicilian]

so, in OTL, Alexander's successor was chosen only because of the Italian Wars? :confused:
(that's the impression I got from your question - that everything is out the window now...despite the College of Cardinals still having next to identical membership after a mere 10 years)
No, that isn't what I ment. I was trying to say that the political situation of Europe has been dramatically changed. And as the Papal elections were very much a political event, this change will have an impact. To compound this, Alexander survived a few more years as Pope, thus throwing off any elections that may have occured. To put it simply, we can have a little freedom in Papal elections. Because of that, I have had two Carafas elected, allowing Naples to come to dominate the temporal Papacy.

[Glen]

um...being from Naples, isn't his "native language a lot closer to Latin than German and English are?

so his idea of "native language" might not be Wettin's idea of it.

Recall too that renaissance man and reformationist is not the same thing.

[Glen]

Who was Innocent IX again? Oliviero Carafa? He was a contender for the Papacy in several OTL Conclaves, and ten years difference does equate a big difference potentially in who is voting, and what they are considering.

Oliviero is a Renaissance Pope, definitely. His nephew OTL became Pope (and was a bit of a mixed bag of Renaissance/Scholastic/Counter-Reformationist).

Kinda makes Alessandro a bit of a cypher if we're using his family as an example.

[The Sicilian]

No, Vincenzo Carafa. But with the information you pulled up on Oliverio, perhaps we should use him instead.

[Glen]

No, Vincenzo Carafa. But with the information you pulled up on Oliverio, perhaps we should use him instead.

Well...Vincenzo was born in 1477, which would have made him a bit young for Pope, especially if elected while his uncle Oliverio was still alive.

Actually, if I were you, I'd make Oliviero Pope first, then make Vincenzo or Alessandro next. Not certain which; I'm having trouble finding much info on either of them.

Oh, and some people asked about Bernardo Clesio....


(20) 2. CLES, Bernhard von (1485-1539)

Birth. March 11, 1485, Cles, Non Valley, diocese of Trent. Of a noble family. Son of Hildebrand von Cles and Dorothea Fuchs. He is also listed as Bernardo Klesio; and his last name as Clesius and de Closs.

Education. Studied rhetoric in Verona, 1497 to 1504; University of Bologna, Bologna, 1504-1511; sindico generale of the university; doctorate in utroque iure, both canon and civil law, May 15, 1511.

Early life. In 1509, he started his ecclesiastical career. Canon of the cathedral chapter of Trent, 1512. Apostolic notary, 1512. Procurator of the German nation. Bishop George Neideck of Trent nominated him counsellor and sent him to Trent to govern the principality in his absence while he was regent of Tirol. Counselor of Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I in Innsbruck, 1513. Major archdeacon of Trent.

Sacred orders. Received the subdiaconate.

Episcopate. Elected unanimously by the cathedral chapter prince-bishop of Trent, June 1514; his election was confirmed by Pope Leo X on September 25, 1514. He had to postpone his return to Trent because of his many duties linked to his international political role; he took up the position of prince-bishop on September 8, 1515.

Priesthood, Ordained, September 8, 1515, Trent. Consecrated, September 11, 1515, Trent (no further information found). The prince-bishop promoted an extensive renovation of the city and principality: the reconstruction of the church of S. Maria Maggiore in Renaissance style; the widening of the main streets; the decorating of the house facades; the building of the Shrine of the Virgin Mary in Civezzano; the expansion of the castles of Stenico and Toblino in his property; the reconstruction of the parish church and the improvements to the family castle in Cles in the Non valley. He organized the compilation of registers and rationalized and increased the episcopal library; he also organized the diocesan archive giving it Codex Clesuanus. In 1519, at the death of Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I, he was called to be part of the regency ad interim, until the nomination of Charles of Hapsburg as emperor with the name Charles V. The Peasants' War started in May 1525 and was repressed with determination by the prince-bishop. King Ferdinand I of the Romans named him president of the Privy Council in 1526. Two years later, in 1528, he was named supreme chancellor, position of the highest prestige in the Austrian court. In that same year, the prince-bishop promulgated the Statutum Tridentinum in a new text which remained in force until 1807; it had eleven volumes that collected the documentary sources of the laws and feuds of the principality and formed a code which carried his name. He personally supervised the rebuilding and decoration of the Magno Palazzo at Buonconsiglio Castle, from 1528 to 1536; the prince-bishop employed some of the best artists of the time, such as Dosso Dossi and his brother Battista, Girolamo Romanino, Marcello Fogolino, Vincenzo Grandi, Alessio Longhi and Zaccaria Zacchi. He was present, as representative of King Ferdinand, at the coronation of Emperor Charles V at the cathedral of S. Petronio, Bologna, in 1530.

Cardinalate. Created cardinal priest in the consistory of March 9, 1530; received the red hat and the title of S. Stefano in Monte Celio, May 16, 1530. He was the first prince-bishop of Trent to become cardinal. Named president of the privy council, 1533. Did not participate in the conclave of 1534. In 1537-1538, he conducted the first pastoral visit in the history of the diocese before the Council, of which written record remains. Administrator of the see of Brixen, May 21, 1539; he took possession of the see on July 13, 1539 and died a few days later. He was responsible for the preparation of the most important religious and political event in the history of Trent, the general council. His ideal was a Catholic Europe ruled by the Hapsburgs.

Death. July 30 (1), 1539, Brixen, of a coronary arrest (2). On August 4, 1539, his remains were transferred to Trent and buried in its cathedral (3).

Wikipedia entry:

Bernardo III Clesio (11 March 1484 – 30 July 1539) was an Italian cardinal, prince, diplomat, humanist and botanist.

Born in Cles, Trentino, he graduated from the University of Bologna, and later became Prince-bishop of Trento (1514-1539), cardinal, and chancellor for the Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand I.

He was a fundamental contributor to the organization of the Council of Trent, bringing the Council to his hometown of Trento and greatly embellishing and expanding the city in the process.

So....what can we have him do OTHER than being Prince-Bishop of Trent....:rolleyes:

[Keenir]

So....what can we have him do OTHER than being Prince-Bishop of Trent....:rolleyes:

Wettin's worst nightmare.

[The Sicilian]

Allright, we use Oliverio as Innocent IX. It is much more reasonable.

[AJNolte]

Wettin's worst nightmare.

Well, if his ideal is a Catholic Europe ruled by the Hapsburgs OTL, he's going to have some rather different ideas since the Hapsburgs are backing Wettin.
As a result, I guess it depends on who wants a solidly traditional Catholic church in their region.
Sounds like he's going to the Palatinate, France, Spain or possibly Naples.

[Keenir]

Well, if his ideal is a Catholic Europe ruled by the Hapsburgs OTL, he's going to have some rather different ideas since the Hapsburgs are backing Wettin.

Given that the Hapsburgs changed their mind and started backing Wettin (all the Hapsburgs? is the family that small? :)), he could still have hope that they'll return to normal Catholocism.

Sounds like he's going to the Palatinate, France, Spain or possibly Naples.

he's welcome in the Palatinate.
(as long as he stays staunchly Catholic, anybody who wants to can run him)

[Glen]

Well, if his ideal is a Catholic Europe ruled by the Hapsburgs OTL, he's going to have some rather different ideas since the Hapsburgs are backing Wettin.
As a result, I guess it depends on who wants a solidly traditional Catholic church in their region.
Sounds like he's going to the Palatinate, France, Spain or possibly Naples.

I was kind of thinking perhaps something in the Vatican.

[AJNolte]

I was kind of thinking perhaps something in the Vatican.

Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith perhaps? It's a combined theologian-in-chief/inquisitor.
His position here would definitely lead to a hardening of the anti-Wettinite position in the Vatican.

[Glen]

Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith perhaps? It's a combined theologian-in-chief/inquisitor.
His position here would definitely lead to a hardening of the anti-Wettinite position in the Vatican.

Problem is, that was founded OTL in 1542.

[Keenir]

Problem is, that was founded OTL in 1542.

How is that a problem? The rise of Wettinites might lead to a similar/identical office on time or slightly earlier than OTL.

[Glen]

How is that a problem? The rise of Wettinites might lead to a similar/identical office on time or slightly earlier than OTL.

Different generation, different popes. A similar office quite possible, identical forget it.

Note that it was the first Congregation formed, so it makes it even less likely to spontaneously appear, as there's no precedent for it.

[AJNolte]

Different generation, different popes. A similar office quite possible, identical forget it.

Note that it was the first Congregation formed, so it makes it even less likely to spontaneously appear, as there's no precedent for it.

Alright then: send him to be a papal secretary or something. They have to have cannon theologians in residence. Or perhaps an administrator, as he seems to have some talent in that direction?

BTW: looks like a schism is almost inevitable, or at least, separate rites. The question is, can multiple theories re: justification exist in the RCC?

[Glen]

Alright then: send him to be a papal secretary or something. They have to have cannon theologians in residence. Or perhaps an administrator, as he seems to have some talent in that direction?

BTW: looks like a schism is almost inevitable, or at least, separate rites. The question is, can multiple theories re: justification exist in the RCC?

Indulgences could have gotten settled within the church.

Regular languages for bible and liturgy plus/minus, hard sell, but some sort of compromise might be possible.

Justification by faith alone....that is the schism point. That will divide the church like none of the rest will. This is where you threaten schism and possibly, maybe even likely, set off the Reformation.

[Glen]

Okay, couple comments.

Propose that Pope Innocent IX (Oliviero Carafa) dies 1512. That would explain the lack of inaction that year with regard to Portugal. Elect Pope Innocent X (Vincenzio Carafa) that year.

Have Manoel excommunicated at the beginning of the 1517 war?

Bernardo Clesio on graduating university becomes a personal secretary in the Vatican due to high recommendations, is spotted by and cultivated by the Innocents.

Wettinite controversy comes to a head sometime in 1519. Have Maximillian side with the Wettinites (note he was the first HRE not to seek being crowned by the Pope, and went by the title 'Elected King of the Romans'). Have a break in the HRE occur just before Maximillian's death, with the Pope crowning another 'Holy Roman Emperor' while Maximillian keeps using the 'Elected King of the Romans'. Have Charles of Burgundy remain loyal to the Pope, breaking with his father's policies. Maybe have Maximillian disown him in favor of another Hapsburg. When Maximillian dies, here in the early 1520s, another is elected 'King of the Romans' by the Wettinite states, whereas the Catholic parts of the empire remain loyal to the Pope and their Holy Roman Emperor. Or something like this.

Portugal is taken into the Wettinite camp by Manoel.

Thoughts, comments?

[pompejus]

Wettinite controversy comes to a head sometime in 1519. Have Maximillian side with the Wettinites (note he was the first HRE not to seek being crowned by the Pope, and went by the title 'Elected King of the Romans'). Have a break in the HRE occur just before Maximillian's death, with the Pope crowning another 'Holy Roman Emperor' while Maximillian keeps using the 'Elected King of the Romans'. Have Charles of Burgundy remain loyal to the Pope, breaking with his father's policies. Maybe have Maximillian disown him in favor of another Hapsburg. When Maximillian dies, here in the early 1520s, another is elected 'King of the Romans' by the Wettinite states, whereas the Catholic parts of the empire remain loyal to the Pope and their Holy Roman Emperor. Or something like this.



Sounds like a good idea to me (even though at this point Philip is still the ruler of Burgundy and not yet Charles). Supporting the pope could even be a reaction to growing influence of the Wettinites in the areas of the anti-Burgundian alliance.

[Glen]

Sounds like a good idea to me (even though at this point Philip is still the ruler of Burgundy and not yet Charles). Supporting the pope could even be a reaction to growing influence of the Wettinites in the areas of the anti-Burgundian alliance.

That works. Sorry about the whole Charles/Phillip slip up mentally.

[pompejus]

That works. Sorry about the whole Charles/Phillip slip up mentally.

Don't worry. You have to keep track of the entire timeline, I kind of ignore everything that is too far away (until the point I decide to start trading in far away places).

[Glen]

Don't worry. You have to keep track of the entire timeline, I kind of ignore everything that is too far away (until the point I decide to start trading in far away places).

I think your approach quite wise and quite appropriate for the time being.

[Keenir]

Wettinite controversy comes to a head sometime in 1519. Have Maximillian side with the Wettinites (note he was the first HRE not to seek being crowned by the Pope, and went by the title 'Elected King of the Romans'). Have a break in the HRE occur just before Maximillian's death, with the Pope crowning another 'Holy Roman Emperor' while Maximillian keeps using the 'Elected King of the Romans'. Have Charles of Burgundy remain loyal to the Pope, breaking with his father's policies. Maybe have Maximillian disown him in favor of another Hapsburg. When Maximillian dies, here in the early 1520s, another is elected 'King of the Romans' by the Wettinite states, whereas the Catholic parts of the empire remain loyal to the Pope and their Holy Roman Emperor.
Thoughts, comments?

is there any thought as to when Maximillian is to die?

when he does, the Elector of the Palatine will summon "all loyal Catholic princes and electors to elect an True Emperor, one who is not a creature of the rogue Wettin".

(he's got nothing against the Wettins...just one Wettin in particular)

[Glen]

is there any thought as to when Maximillian is to die?

Probably around 1520, give or take a year. Need to place it to make the rest of the event work.

when he does, the Elector of the Palatine will summon "all loyal Catholic princes and electors to elect an True Emperor, one who is not a creature of the rogue Wettin".

(he's got nothing against the Wettins...just one Wettin in particular)

Right. How many electors do you control again?

[Glen]

Okay, so AJ controls the plurality, but not enough to decide on his own.

Bohemia goes Wettinite?

Someone get Analytical's arse over here.

Cologne for Philip Habsburg?

But what would AJ do....


Probably around 1520, give or take a year. Need to place it to make the rest of the event work.

Right. How many electors do you control again?

The Seven Prince-Electors of 1493:

RCTFI - Bohemia

Analytical Engine - Brandenburg

Popejus - Cologne

Keenir - Palatinate

AJNolte - Saxony, Mainz, Trier

Note that AJNolte controls a plurality at the start, though not the majority. He's in the catbird seat, but could be undone by all the others in combination. However, it would only take one of the others to come over to his 'side' to swing the vote.

Now then, I'm not entirely certain how much Saxony, Mainz, and Trier would have cooperated in OTL, so that's something to be considered.


***
Funny you should ask:
Ernestine Saxony (electors until 1540 or so) and Mainz are both ruled by reformist electors who--I believe--did in fact cooperate on some imperial reforms OTL. Trier is currently administered by Johann of Baden, who is either the brother or cousin of the current count of Baden. Another brother or cousin (not sure which as the only article on him I could find was in badly translated German) will take over the archbishopric in 1502 OTL. My suspicion is that Trier will support a candidate sympathetic to Baden.
The only one of the three who (I believe) would have any chance of becoming Holy Roman Emperor would be Frederick, elector of Ernestine Saxony and protector (OTL) of Martin Luther. Apparently Old Fred was considered for the slot OTL but deferred in favor of Charles V.
If (and it's still quite an if at this point) something would happen that would give Frederick the Wise a shot at the imperial crown, I think Mainz might back him, though Trier might not if a southerner more sympathetic to his family interests was also in the running. I think Frederick would make a very interesting Holy Roman Emperor. That being said, I'm not necessarily setting out with that course in mind for him, im the way that, for example, I'll be trying to reunify Saxony under his control. Let's face it: the Albertines are a wishy-washy lot who have this nasty habbit of stabbing their allies in the back at highly inconvenient times, (IE Morice during the Schmalkaldic war, John George during the thirty years war, John George during the thirty Years war again, and yet again, alright maybe it's just John George who had the shifting alliance problem), and Frederick was on the whole a good bit more interesting. I can't say what implications this has for any upcoming HRE elections, but it's entirely possible that none of my electors will actually want/be able to take the job.

[Blackbeard]

Poland is Orthodox or something like that me thinks. Glen what say you about a reform of religion in Poland?

[Glen]

Poland is Orthodox or something like that me thinks. Glen what say you about a reform of religion in Poland?

IIRC Poland is Catholic and Lithuania is Orthodox.

[Keenir]

Poland is Orthodox or something like that me thinks. Glen what say you about a reform of religion in Poland?

was there a call for reform {in the Polish churches - weren't there both Orthodox and Catholic there?} in the late 1400s/early 1500s OTL?

[Glen]

was there a call for reform {in the Polish churches - weren't there both Orthodox and Catholic there?} in the late 1400s/early 1500s OTL?

The Poles and Lithuanians in this period, if I recall correctly, were very laissez-faire regarding religion. They were one of the more tolerant groups at the time. Again, this is based on memory, not research.

[Blackbeard]

So, you think yes, I could join this Wettinite movement?

[Glen]

So, you think yes, I could join this Wettinite movement?

I think it likely that Poland-Lithuania would harbor Wettinites, yes, but not particularly support or oppose them.

[Blackbeard]

Ah, well, I'll work that out with Nolte.

[Keenir]

So, you think yes, I could join this Wettinite movement?

(if you throw royal support behind them), wouldn't that incite violence either among the Weim or the commoners or both?

[Analytical Engine]

IIRC Poland is Catholic and Lithuania is Orthodox.

I've never heard of Lithuania being officially Orthodox.

It had been (officially) Catholic since the early fifteenth centuary. Catholicism is still the majority religion in Lithuania.

The Grand Duchy would have a large Orthodox population (Belorussians and Ukrainians*) though.

*Became Greek Catholic in 1595 in OTL.

At any rate, how about this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_von_Hutten? As I recall from my Encyclopedia Brittanica (2002), he was in favour of creating a Germanic "Catholic" Church as a way of uniting the HRE as it then was.

(Sorry, been a bit distracted with other things on the board lately. :o)

[AJNolte]

Sorry for my absence: crazy week!
Glen: your plan for the reformation/HRE looks good. I was debating having Cajitan offer a compromise position which basically nobody accepts, but I'm thinking of making him Pope later on.

Also: if Wettin is excommunicated, look for him to establish (or try to establish) communion with the Eastern Orthodox. OTL Luther almost succeeded here.
Poland/Lithuania: well OTL Poland actually did harbor a substantial Lutheran church, though it remained Catholic. Poland might try to allow both to coexist.

I'd really like to know what Scandinavia's doing about all of this. OTL they were a bastion of Lutheranism. If Arctic Warrior/Redbeard is interested, I can send TTL's Luther to help Wettinize the Scandinavian churches. Mecklenburg will be firmly Wettinite, as will the Wendish Federation and the majority (two thirds) of the Teutonic Knights.

HRE succession: the obvious Wettinite candidate would either be another Hapsburg son or Elector Frederick. Mainz, Trier and Saxony would back the Wettinite for sure. OTL the Prince-Bishop of Cologne became Lutheran. ITTL we may have a different person altogether. Same with the Hohenzolerens in Brandenburg (and elector Philip now that I mention it, though the Palatinate went Calvinist about a century later). Bohemia was a bastion of Protestantism, as they were somewhat religiously unique already due to the Hussites, so a Wettinite Bohemia is likely.

I'm really not at all sure about Bavaria. Did RCTFI specify which way he wanted this to go? OTL it was almost the heart of the counter-reformation. Then again, so was Austria and it's already Wettinite.

I'm also thinking Navarre may go Wettinite. This happened OTL, though I think King Andrew will be restoring the Moserabic Rite, translating the Bible into Basque and embracing justification. Spain...won't do anything about it because they're (1) recovering from the Portuguese war and (2) don't want to push Navarre into the Portuguese camp. Spain will remain staunchly Catholic however.

[AJNolte]

I'm going to have Wettin come out against the excesses of the slave trade in the 20s, mainly because the Hanseatics are going to ask him about the morality of carrying such cargo. This may, uh, cause problems with Portugal. If communion with the Orthodox happens, you could take Portugal straight into the Eastern right. Or you could just go off on your own. Or you could just ignore Wettin, continue to call yourself a Wettinite and continue the slave trade anyway.

[marl_d]

Russia is more than happy to have Orthodox friends in the west:cool::D

[Keenir]

I'm going to have Wettin come out against the excesses of the slave trade in the 20s, mainly because the Hanseatics are going to ask him about the morality of carrying such cargo.

isn't it awfully early to be questioning such morality? next, I suppose Wettin will condemn the division of land into holdings for kings and their dependent knights, knights and their dependants, ad infinitum.
;):cool:

[Keenir]

Sorry for my absence:

welcome back.

Bohemia was a bastion of Protestantism, as they were somewhat religiously unique already due to the Hussites, so a Wettinite Bohemia is likely.

actually, wouldn't the Hussites' presence be able to keep the Wettinites out?

[marl_d]

actually, wouldn't the Hussites' presence be able to keep the Wettinites out?

probably not, seeing as the Hussites' very anti-Catholic and anything that would have opposed the Pope would probably be seen as something to encourage, wither they adopt Wettin's ideas is a different story though. but i could see them as a place of sanctuary for anyone persecuted

[Keenir]

probably not, seeing as the Hussites' very anti-Catholic and anything that would have opposed the Pope would probably be seen as something to encourage, wither they adopt Wettin's ideas is a different story though. but i could see them as a place of sanctuary for anyone persecuted

tiny question - in OTL, did they encourage Luther, Calvin, or any of the others?

[AJNolte]

isn't it awfully early to be questioning such morality? next, I suppose Wettin will condemn the division of land into holdings for kings and their dependent knights, knights and their dependants, ad infinitum.
;):cool:


Not necessarily. The Wendish Federation basically asked Wettin about the propriety of involvement in the trans-Atlantic slave trade, not the owning of slaves or even the slave trade in general. Wettin's critique is that basically the conditions are inhumane, and don't live up to the treatment of slaves mandated in the New Testament. It may lay the groundwork for some anti-slavery tendencies in Wettinism later on, but it's basically a typically "back-to-the-bible" response from Wettin.
Remember: Vetoria in Spain was making similar claims about the Spanish treatment of natives in OTL South America about this time. Of course, they ignored him, and this may well happen to Wettin. The Wendish Federation, at least, probably won't (and since the slave trade wouldn't be very lucrative for them anyway, they'll regard it as little skin off their back).

[AJNolte]

tiny question - in OTL, did they encourage Luther, Calvin, or any of the others?

Yes they did in fact: Bohemia was Protestant by the beginning of the seventeenth century at least, probably earlier. The Bohemian Reformation, while still Protestant, went off in a slightly different direction, and led to the creation of the Moravian Church which still exists today. In fact, it was only occupation by the counter-reformist Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand which partially restored Catholicism, and I think the Czech Republic still has a substantial Protestant church.

[Keenir]

and don't live up to the treatment of slaves mandated in the New Testament.

tiny question - is this the bit about Paul(?) suggesting a man and his slave be brothers in Christ, even if the slave isn't neccessarily freed? (that'd be a neat twist -- mandating spiritual equality while condoning economic inequality)

Not necessarily. The Wendish Federation basically asked Wettin about the propriety of involvement in the trans-Atlantic slave trade, not the owning of slaves or even the slave trade in general. Wettin's critique is that basically the conditions are inhumane,

Remember: Vetoria in Spain was making similar claims about the Spanish treatment of natives in OTL South America about this time.

okay; thought to ask.

(can't very well ask Glen to be the only Doubting Thomas here) ;)

[Keenir]

If I want to say a Wettinite Church arises in one of my lands, in the 1520s, can I do so?
(how much contact they have with Wettin might be in dispute, but they can at least claim to have been led/taught by him...right?)

[AJNolte]

tiny question - is this the bit about Paul(?) suggesting a man and his slave be brothers in Christ, even if the slave isn't neccessarily freed? (that'd be a neat twist -- mandating spiritual equality while condoning economic inequality)



okay; thought to ask.

(can't very well ask Glen to be the only Doubting Thomas here) ;)


Wettin will draw from Galatians (in Christ there is no Greek nor Jew, slave nor free, man nor woman), Philimon (where a master is instructed to welcome his run-away slave back as a brother in Christ) andsome other references (I believe in Ephesians where Paul makes certain provisos regarding the slave to master relationship, and possibly some of the laws in Exodus).
No problem: glad you asked (cause I figured someone was going to). Whether it leads to an earlier anti-slavery movement is probably up to other people.

[AJNolte]

If I want to say a Wettinite Church arises in one of my lands, in the 1520s, can I do so?
(how much contact they have with Wettin might be in dispute, but they can at least claim to have been led/taught by him...right?)


Well, I think it's unlikely among the Uigars or Ottomans. <g>

Yes, you certainly can. Contact with Wettin might be easily arranged too. If they stray too far and publically off the reservation he may excommunicate them. And of course, I'm still looking for an Orthodox/Wettinite union (or at least full communion between the two).

[Keenir]

Well, I think it's unlikely among the Uigars or Ottomans. <g>

:p actually, I was thinking about Pohnpei or northern India (once Babur starts bothering to have an heir and spare) ;)

If they stray too far and publically off the reservation he may excommunicate them.

*snort* that'd be rich. :D;):D

And of course, I'm still looking for an Orthodox/Wettinite union (or at least full communion between the two).

not a problem...at least not for Wettin. his backers might not like it, though.

[AJNolte]

1517: On Righteousness published, debate begins.
1519: Council of Jerusalem convenes.
1520: Wettin asked to recant his position re: justification by faith. He responds: "I cannot recant the teachings of scripture and the church fathers, and of Saint Augustine himself. To recant them is to reject a great truth of the church." Cardinal Cajitan suggests a moderate formula which states that works are a manifestation of grace which the Holy Spirot empowers man to do, but his formula is rejected by the Pope (though Wettin and Cajitan will maintain dialogue on the issue). In the end, the Holy Father excommunicates Henry Wettin, Elector Frederick, Emperor Maximillian and all followers of the "Wettinite heresy".
1522-7: Wettin sends the first emissaries to the Eastern Orthodox churches to discuss reunion between the Wettinite and Orthodox churches. Seeing that Wettin is a virtual metropolitan in Germany, the Eastern patriarchs receive him extremely warmly. Luther, who is one of the emissaries, develops a deep appreciation for the Orthodox doctrine of theosis about which he writes extensively.
1523(?) Maximillian dies. The Catholic electors (Philip and possibly one or two others) and those princes loyal to the Pope meet in (some city of the loyal regions) to elect a Catholic Holy Roman Emperor, and settle on Philip of Burgundy. The Protestant electors meet in Vienna and elect (either a Hapsburg Protestant or ErnstFrederick, son of Frederick the elector, as Fred himself is getting a bit old. Whoever's playing for the Hapsburgs: what Protestant Hapsburgs are there)?
1529: The Wettinite and Eastern Orthodox churches enter into a eucharistic union. The Wettinites are recognized as the "true Western rite" by the Eastern patriarchs, and Wettin himself is consecrated Patriarch of Mainz and Metropolitan of the West.

Objections? Questions? Thoughts?

[marl_d]

what are the Wittenites views on local language Bibles

[AJNolte]

what are the Wittenites views on local language Bibles


Definitely in favor. Though it looks like even the Catholics may be moving in this direction.

Incidentally: if Rome really caves on local language Bibles, indulgences and local language mass it'll be about 400 years ahead of schedule.

[marl_d]

i would suggest that LLB stay in the realm of the Protestants, with some local Catholic priest/bishops looking the other way...only 20-30 post POD i don't see that drastic of a change in The Chruches view on the Bible in anything other than Latin...I'm making it a point of Contention in Russia as it is.

[Keenir]

1517: On Righteousness published, debate begins.

in the same year, Gregory of Mantua arrives in Rhodes, gains a few converts (most notably Jacob of Rhodes), and continues on to Constantinople.


In the end, the Holy Father excommunicates Henry Wettin, Elector Frederick, Emperor Maximillian and all followers of the "Wettinite heresy".

I'd be curious as to your views of Jacob of Rhodes (the 1521 and 1522 threads)...would Wettin be friendly to him, or excommunicate him?


1522-7: Wettin sends the first emissaries to the Eastern Orthodox churches to discuss reunion between the Wettinite and Orthodox churches.

Objections? Questions? Thoughts?

[AJNolte]

in the same year, Gregory of Mantua arrives in Rhodes, gains a few converts (most notably Jacob of Rhodes), and continues on to Constantinople.



I'd be curious as to your views of Jacob of Rhodes (the 1521 and 1522 threads)...would Wettin be friendly to him, or excommunicate him?

Excommunicate him! Hell, I want to steal him as an emissary to the Eastern Orthodox. Sounds like he's on their wave length.
Seriously: sounds like a crusocentric Luther to me, which is fine. I can see a Wettinite church in Rhodes definitely muddying the waters on the island.
I think the Hospitalers are going to be Cajitanists (a faction in the church which favors greater liberalization and continued dialogue with Wettin), at least under the next grand master.

[Keenir]

Excommunicate him! Hell, I want to steal him as an emissary to the Eastern Orthodox.

as he's on Rhodes, you can have him; all I ask is that he doesn't become a moderate -- Gregory's convinced him that Wettinism is the right road, but Jacob feels the gold-and-gems Bibles are not part of what Wettin should want to shed with the rest of the Catholic stuff that's accumulated on Christianity since Christ & the Apostles' time.

did that make sense?

Sounds like he's on their wave length.
Seriously: sounds like a crusocentric Luther

crusocentric?

to me, which is fine. I can see a Wettinite church in Rhodes definitely muddying the waters on the island.
I think the Hospitalers are going to be Cajitanists (a faction in the church which favors greater liberalization and continued dialogue with Wettin), at least under the next grand master.

sounds good.

one thought I had (granted, before I created Jacob), was that something happens that moves an Ottoman Emperor to place the Wettinites under his protection*....a move which alarms the Pope and various others.
(see, I was listening when you explained why an Ottoman invasion of *classified* would be a good thing for Christian unity) :eek::D;):cool:


* = that was the original reason I had for wanting Eastern Wettinites.

[Keenir]

1529: The Wettinite and Eastern Orthodox churches enter into a eucharistic union. The Wettinites are recognized as the "true Western rite" by the Eastern patriarchs, and Wettin himself is consecrated Patriarch of Mainz and Metropolitan of the West.

Objections? Questions? Thoughts?

it just hit me: when Wettin does this, does he negotiate the union with Eastern Orthodox churches in the Russian sphere, or the Ottoman sphere?
(was there a great difference?)

[Keenir]

an emissary to the Eastern Orthodox. Sounds like he's on their wave length.

of course he is -- he used to be one.
(wants to keep the shiny stuff, though)

[marl_d]

he's talking to both

[AJNolte]

of course he is -- he used to be one.
(wants to keep the shiny stuff, though)


So did Frederick the Wise OTL (and here). And in unifying with the Orthodox (yes, talking to both Russian and Ottomans), keeping the shiny stuff becomes a fe'et accompli.
Actually most of the iconoclastic Protestants were Calvinists anyway.
Crusocentric: theology centered around the cross/crucifiction as the central point of Christianity (as opposed to, say, bibleocentrists).

[Keenir]

So did Frederick the Wise OTL (and here). And in unifying with the Orthodox (yes, talking to both Russian and Ottomans), keeping the shiny stuff becomes a fe'et accompli.

okay then....btw, are Greek Orthodox equally bibleocentrist and crusocentric?
(I have faint memories of an Orthodox priest explaining* that the Bible is exceedingly important, but I don't remember him saying how it measured in relation to other objects of faith)

Actually most of the iconoclastic Protestants were Calvinists anyway.

*lightbulb* the Wettinites pare down the practices they see as dross, while the Catholics pare down the icons.

just a thought.
(a splinter sect, maybe)

Crusocentric: theology centered around the cross/crucifiction as the central point of Christianity (as opposed to, say, bibleocentrists).

wondering...are there any good sites and-or books which tell the various groups? (ie, Crusocentrics, Bibleocentrists, (etc?))

* = it was basically an open house, complete with one-day gift shop and BBQ.

[Analytical Engine]

Don't forget, despite most of the Electors being Protestant in OTL, that didn't stop them from voting in the Catholic Habsburgs time after time. :p

[AJNolte]

Don't forget, despite most of the Electors being Protestant in OTL, that didn't stop them from voting in the Catholic Habsburgs time after time. :p

Yes, but that was after the Peace of Augsburg in 1555. Before that, there was no HRE election, and we're going to have one right at the beginning of the reformation.

That and there weren't Protestant Hapsburgs. OTL I think there will be. (Incidentally, didn't Max have a son named Ferdinand or something)?

[AJNolte]

okay then....btw, are Greek Orthodox equally bibleocentrist and crusocentric?
(I have faint memories of an Orthodox priest explaining* that the Bible is exceedingly important, but I don't remember him saying how it measured in relation to other objects of faith)



*lightbulb* the Wettinites pare down the practices they see as dross, while the Catholics pare down the icons.

just a thought.
(a splinter sect, maybe)



wondering...are there any good sites and-or books which tell the various groups? (ie, Crusocentrics, Bibleocentrists, (etc?))

* = it was basically an open house, complete with one-day gift shop and BBQ.

The Orthodox would probably tell you those are Protestant categories. <g> Definitely not bibleocentrists though. Then again, neither are traditional Lutherans, or Wettinites. That came about later in more radical forms of Protestantism.

I'll hit you up with the theology in a PM or something if you're interested.

[Glen]

I'm going to have Wettin come out against the excesses of the slave trade in the 20s,

Too early. No one has developed heavy European involvement in the slave trade yet.

mainly because the Hanseatics are going to ask him about the morality of carrying such cargo.

Never heard of a trade group asking for a possible ruling against a trade item. I find this highly unlikely. Now, if the Church tells them its immoral, fine. But why would they? Slavery doesn't conflict with Wettinite doctrine as stated, yet.

This may, uh, cause problems with Portugal. If communion with the Orthodox happens, you could take Portugal straight into the Eastern right. Or you could just go off on your own. Or you could just ignore Wettin, continue to call yourself a Wettinite and continue the slave trade anyway.

They aren't really trading much in slaves yet.

[Glen]

Not necessarily. The Wendish Federation basically asked Wettin about the propriety of involvement in the trans-Atlantic slave trade, not the owning of slaves or even the slave trade in general. Wettin's critique is that basically the conditions are inhumane, and don't live up to the treatment of slaves mandated in the New Testament. It may lay the groundwork for some anti-slavery tendencies in Wettinism later on, but it's basically a typically "back-to-the-bible" response from Wettin.
Remember: Vetoria in Spain was making similar claims about the Spanish treatment of natives in OTL South America about this time. Of course, they ignored him, and this may well happen to Wettin. The Wendish Federation, at least, probably won't (and since the slave trade wouldn't be very lucrative for them anyway, they'll regard it as little skin off their back).

This approach would not end with removal of the Hansa from the slave trade (which really hasn't started yet unless you've been bringing in slaves to Trinidad), rather it would require them to just do a more humane job in shipping them.

Since that means more of them would actually arrive alive, I'm not certain that it would lose that much in profits.

[Glen]

If I want to say a Wettinite Church arises in one of my lands, in the 1520s, can I do so?
(how much contact they have with Wettin might be in dispute, but they can at least claim to have been led/taught by him...right?)

Which lands? Anything in Europe is possible. Outside of Europe I'd think more in the 1530s.

[Glen]

:p actually, I was thinking about Pohnpei or northern India (once Babur starts bothering to have an heir and spare) ;)


That seems highly implausible in such a short time frame. Why would there be Wettinite Christians there when its in its very infancy in Europe? And why would this area even be interested in Chrisitianity to begin with, much less the Wettinite variety?

[Glen]

1517: On Righteousness published, debate begins.

This would be fine.

1519: Council of Jerusalem convenes.

Too far from those involved. Travel isn't easy in this time. Also things are still a might unsettled in the region due to the recent expansion of the Ottomans.

Pick another city. If you'd like one in the Swiss Confederation, I'd be happy to oblige.

1520: Wettin asked to recant his position regarding justification by faith. He responds: "I cannot recant the teachings of scripture and the church fathers, and of Saint Augustine himself. To recant them is to reject a great truth of the church." Cardinal Cajitan suggests a moderate formula which states that works are a manifestation of grace which the Holy Spirit empowers man to do, but his formula is rejected by the Pope (though Wettin and Cajitan will maintain dialogue on the issue). In the end, the Holy Father excommunicates Henry Wettin, Elector Frederick, Emperor Maximillian and all followers of the "Wettinite heresy".

1522 - 1527: Wettin sends the first emissaries to the Eastern Orthodox churches to discuss reunion between the Wettinite and Orthodox churches. Seeing that Wettin is a virtual metropolitan in Germany, the Eastern patriarchs receive him extremely warmly. Luther, who is one of the emissaries, develops a deep appreciation for the Orthodox doctrine of theosis about which he writes extensively.

All seem okayish.


1523(?) Maximillian dies. The Catholic electors (Philip and possibly one or two others) and those princes loyal to the Pope meet in (some city of the loyal regions) to elect a Catholic Holy Roman Emperor, and settle on Philip of Burgundy.

Is there any way to get someone other than Philip elected? It would seem plausible with the last Habsburg going Wettinite.

The Protestant electors meet in Vienna and elect (either a Hapsburg Protestant or Ernst Frederick, son of Frederick the elector, as Fred himself is getting a bit old. Whoever's playing for the Hapsburgs: what Protestant Hapsburgs are there)?

Let's elect Ernst Frederick. If Fred himself is getting too old, kill him off before the meeting to make things simple.

1529: The Wettinite and Eastern Orthodox churches enter into a eucharistic union. The Wettinites are recognized as the "true Western rite" by the Eastern patriarchs, and Wettin himself is consecrated Patriarch of Mainz and Metropolitan of the West.

Objections? Questions? Thoughts?

Does the Eastern Orthodox recognize justification by faith alone? If they don't than this seems to me implausible (though not the attempt to make the connection, just its success).

[Glen]

one thought I had (granted, before I created Jacob), was that something happens that moves an Ottoman Emperor to place the Wettinites under his protection*....a move which alarms the Pope and various others.
(see, I was listening when you explained why an Ottoman invasion of *classified* would be a good thing for Christian unity) :eek::D;):cool:

* = that was the original reason I had for wanting Eastern Wettinites.

PLEASE keep the Ottoman Emperor out of protecting or favoring factions of Christianity! It's just a bit implausible in my estimation.

[Glen]

Comment...marl d has been leading the Russian Orthodox down a very different road....I'd expect THEM to fall out of communion with the rest of the Eastern Orthodox churches if more of the ideas of the Sect of Skhariya the Jew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect_of_Skhariya_the_Jew) get accepted. If I read about this sect correctly, I wouldn't think that Justification by Faith Alone would necessarily sit well with them.

[Keenir]

That seems highly implausible in such a short time frame. Why would there be Wettinite Christians there when its in its very infancy in Europe? And why would this area even be interested in Chrisitianity to begin with, much less the Wettinite variety?

didya see the :p there? I was making a comment in jest; apologies for being unclear.

PLEASE keep the Ottoman Emperor out of protecting or favoring factions of Christianity! It's just a bit implausible in my estimation.

apologies; I meant he extends his protection over them....which to the Pope might be just a hair being split.

thanks for pointing out where I nearly went awry. much appreciated.


oh, ps: in OTL, the Ottomans gave refuge to Christian groups as varied as the Protestants and even Catholics who disagreed with Rome.

[Keenir]

I'll hit you up with the theology in a PM or something if you're interested.

yes please. at your leisure.

[Glen]

oh, ps: in OTL, the Ottomans gave refuge to Christian groups as varied as the Protestants and even Catholics who disagreed with Rome.

Refuge is fine. Feel free to have some settle in the empire. As you say, that would be quite in keeping with the practices of the time.

[AJNolte]

This would be fine.



Too far from those involved. Travel isn't easy in this time. Also things are still a might unsettled in the region due to the recent expansion of the Ottomans.

Pick another city. If you'd like one in the Swiss Confederation, I'd be happy to oblige.



All seem okayish.



Is there any way to get someone other than Philip elected? It would seem plausible with the last Habsburg going Wettinite.



Let's elect Ernst Frederick. If Fred himself is getting too old, kill him off before the meeting to make things simple.



Does the Eastern Orthodox recognize justification by faith alone? If they don't than this seems to me implausible (though not the attempt to make the connection, just its success).


As far as I can tell:
The Eastern Orthodox don't even think in the juridical faith/works categories. Their philosophy of salvation involves the concept of theosis, or gradually being conformed to the image of God and united with Christ. There's some scholarship OTL which indicates that Luther was sympathetic to this idea (most of it's in Finish but Carl Brotten's 'Union with Christ' is a good work on the subject in English). OTL I've made the Wettinite identification with theosis more explicit.
Basically, I think the Orthodox will accept Wettin's basic point; that salvation begins with God, not with us or with the church.

That and the Orthodox aren't too big on hard juridical theology, being more interested with ecclesiology. And since the Wettinites are willing to accept the supremacy of councils over the bishop of Rome, remove the philioque from their creeds and reject any anathemas against the east, eucharistic union (the ability to share communion fellowship), if not a full fellowship, is a distinct possibility I think. OTL it was actually tried, but Melanchthon had drifted in a more Calvinist direction and the East was in a rather bad position politically.

[AJNolte]

Comment...marl d has been leading the Russian Orthodox down a very different road....I'd expect THEM to fall out of communion with the rest of the Eastern Orthodox churches if more of the ideas of the Sect of Skhariya the Jew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect_of_Skhariya_the_Jew) get accepted. If I read about this sect correctly, I wouldn't think that Justification by Faith Alone would necessarily sit well with them.

PMed him already. He's looking to have some Sorskivites study with the Wettinites. I think Russia may just end up in the "western rite" is all, or at least the Sorskivites might.

Like I said: Orthodoxy is defined more by patriarchal unity than strict matters of doctrine. Try arguing theology with a member of an Orthodox church for about an hour if you want a good splitting headache (I kid: got to love my eastern brothers and sisters. <g>).

[Glen]

As far as I can tell:
The Eastern Orthodox don't even think in the juridical faith/works categories. Their philosophy of salvation involves the concept of theosis, or gradually being conformed to the image of God and united with Christ. There's some scholarship OTL which indicates that Luther was sympathetic to this idea (most of it's in Finish but Carl Brotten's 'Union with Christ' is a good work on the subject in English). OTL I've made the Wettinite identification with theosis more explicit.
Basically, I think the Orthodox will accept Wettin's basic point; that salvation begins with God, not with us or with the church.

That and the Orthodox aren't too big on hard juridical theology, being more interested with ecclesiology. And since the Wettinites are willing to accept the supremacy of councils over the bishop of Rome, remove the philioque from their creeds and reject any anathemas against the east, eucharistic union (the ability to share communion fellowship), if not a full fellowship, is a distinct possibility I think. OTL it was actually tried, but Melanchthon had drifted in a more Calvinist direction and the East was in a rather bad position politically.


I suggest you post the Wettinite joining in Eucaristic Communion with the Orthodox churches in Before 1900 discussion and ask for opinions regarding plausibility. Sounds like you're making a good argument, but this is the sort of thing people ding us on if we don't vet it well.

[AJNolte]

I suggest you post the Wettinite joining in Eucaristic Communion with the Orthodox churches in Before 1900 discussion and ask for opinions regarding plausibility. Sounds like you're making a good argument, but this is the sort of thing people ding us on if we don't vet it well.


There's actually been a similar thread there on Luther converting to Orthodoxy, on which I posted. One of the other posters seemed to be pretty up on this stuff, so I may also PM him on the issue.

[marl_d]

Comment...marl d has been leading the Russian Orthodox down a very different road....I'd expect THEM to fall out of communion with the rest of the Eastern Orthodox churches if more of the ideas of the Sect of Skhariya the Jew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect_of_Skhariya_the_Jew) get accepted. If I read about this sect correctly, I wouldn't think that Justification by Faith Alone would necessarily sit well with them.

well the Sect is more an inspiration for Sorsky and his followers, especially in their leaning on Individuality and their way to God and the secularization of the Government and to some extent ecclesiastic hierarchy (they see the need, but feel it could be changed). Sorskivite's have rejected the Sects Teaching on the Holy Trinity, the divine status of Jesus, and monasticism

Justification by Faith would actually sit very well with the Sorskivites, but not with the Sect, mostly due to their rejection of the Divinity of Christ and the Trinity.

Dmitriy hasn't done anything to promote the Sect, instead has put his weight behind Sorsky and his followers, but still has them under his protection due to his Mother belonging to them.

[Glen]

well the Sect is more an inspiration for Sorsky and his followers, especially in their leaning on Individuality and their way to God and the secularization of the Government and to some extent ecclesiastic hierarchy (they see the need, but feel it could be changed). Sorskivite's have rejected the Sects Teaching on the Holy Trinity, the divine status of Jesus, and monasticism

Justification by Faith would actually sit very well with the Sorskivites, but not with the Sect, mostly due to their rejection of the Divinity of Christ and the Trinity.

Dmitriy hasn't done anything to promote the Sect, instead has put his weight behind Sorsky and his followers, but still has them under his protection due to his Mother belonging to them.

How does their stance on individuality and their way to God agree with Justification by Faith Alone?:confused:

[Keenir]

PMed him already. He's looking to have some Sorskivites study with the Wettinites. I think Russia may just end up in the "western rite" is all, or at least the Sorskivites might.

and-or those of the Sect might argue with the Wettin-friendly Orthodox, and only the Tsars can keep violence from erupting into civil war. (hm, Russia becomes this timeline's version of Huegonaut(sp) France?) :D;)

tis just a thought.

[Glen]

Okay, folks, its crunch time. I want you all to put your heads together and come up with a series of draft events for the Wettinite/Succession Crises. We need these two settled by Sunday.

[Analytical Engine]

(Incidentally, didn't Max have a son named Ferdinand or something)?
Max had only two children, Philip of Burgundy and Margret of Austria.

Philip's second son was called Ferdinand (1503-1564), who became king of Hungary and Bohemia, and Holy Roman Emperor and Archduke of Austria after the abdication of Charles V in 1556.

I'd think that the Habsburg territories may well be partitioned between the sons of Philip, with *Charles getting the Burgundinian inheritence, and another getting Austria.

[pompejus]

Max had only two children, Philip of Burgundy and Margret of Austria.

Philip's second son was called Ferdinand (1503-1564), who became king of Hungary and Bohemia, and Holy Roman Emperor and Archduke of Austria after the abdication of Charles V in 1556.

I'd think that the Habsburg territories may well be partitioned between the sons of Philip, with *Charles getting the Burgundinian inheritence, and another getting Austria.

Because I believe that children are the first 'things' that are butterflied away the Children of Philip of Burgundy are now different from his children OTL. These are the children of Philip in this timeline.


1500:
In Gent the first son of Philip of Burgundy is born, he is named Charles named after his greatgrandfather Charles the Bold
1502:
The second son of Philip of Burgundy is born. He is named Ferdinand.
1503:
The first daughter of Philip of Burgundy is born. She is named Eleanor.
1504:
The second daughter of Philip of Burgundy is born. She is named Isabella.
1506:
The third son of Philip of Burgundy is born. He is named Maximillian.

I have so far no conclusive ideas what to do with the reformation except that Wettinite influence is growing in the low countries, like protestantism did OTL. At this point I am thinking of making the rulers of East Frisia and Cleve/Mark/Julich/etc Wettinites and as a reaction making the ruler of Burgundy anti-wetinite (especially of the pope also becomes anti-wetinite).

[marl_d]

How does their stance on individuality and their way to God agree with Justification by Faith Alone?:confused:

Due primarily on the fact that the Sorskivites believe in the Individuals way to God and Faith, which is what Sola Fide is (The doctrine of sola fide or "faith alone" asserts that it solely is on the basis of God's grace through the believer's faith alone that believers are forgiven their transgressions of the Law of God.) expiecially if the Wittens make it based on Sola scriptura which Orthodoxy is more based on.

[Glen]

Because I believe that children are the first 'things' that are butterflied away the Children of Philip of Burgundy are now different from his children OTL. These are the children of Philip in this timeline.


1500:
In Gent the first son of Philip of Burgundy is born, he is named Charles named after his greatgrandfather Charles the Bold
1502:
The second son of Philip of Burgundy is born. He is named Ferdinand.
1503:
The first daughter of Philip of Burgundy is born. She is named Eleanor.
1504:
The second daughter of Philip of Burgundy is born. She is named Isabella.
1506:
The third son of Philip of Burgundy is born. He is named Maximillian.

I have so far no conclusive ideas what to do with the reformation except that Wettinite influence is growing in the low countries, like protestantism did OTL. At this point I am thinking of making the rulers of East Frisia and Cleve/Mark/Julich/etc Wettinites and as a reaction making the ruler of Burgundy anti-wetinite (especially of the pope also becomes anti-wetinite).


I agree with everything you state above. Having Maximillian before his death take a pro-Wettinite stance and his son Philip taking an anti-Wettinite stance will allow for the break that you and RCTFI have been working for between the Western and Eastern Habsburg territories.

It also can be used to swing it so the next Holy Roman Emperor is not a Habsburg, which I believe serves the interests of both of you.

[Glen]

Due primarily on the fact that the Sorskivites believe in the Individuals way to God and Faith, which is what Sola Fide is (The doctrine of sola fide or "faith alone" asserts that it solely is on the basis of God's grace through the believer's faith alone that believers are forgiven their transgressions of the Law of God.) expiecially if the Wittens make it based on Sola scriptura which Orthodoxy is more based on.

Okay, so the Russians stay within communion with the rest of the Orthodox churches, and the Wettinites go into eucharistic union....

....hmm, so maybe in a few centuries, we could even see the reunification of the Chrisitian church within the Orthodox tradition (of course, it would be a much looser organization than under the Pope....)...well, maybe not. The Popes of Rome will undoubtably remain adamant in their stance that the Pope is paramount....though that may become a minor branch of Christianity in comparison...though still potent since it is more centralized than the larger Orthodox groups.

[marl_d]

works for me, be kinda interesting to see the Largest branch of Christianity be Orthodox/Witten instead of Catholic especially if Portugal is brought into the Wittenites side

[Glen]

Okay, AJNolte has enough electors in combination with my proxy for RCTFI to choose a pro-Wettinite as 'Elected King of the Romans' (title of the HRE after being elected and before being crowned by the Pope). The others I suggest should vote for an anti-Wettinite. Their candidate has less legitimacy since he only has three votes, but then the Pope crowns him Holy Roman Emperor to validate him over the pro-Wettinite elected King.

I recommend that you put Keenir's Palatinate ruler in the role of Holy Roman Emperor, he seems to be the most anti-Wettinite of the bunch, and has an interest in keeping together the HRE, so this will give us a participant as HRE who will play the role well.

Probably we'll have pro-Wettinite, anti-Wettinite, and neutral factions within the HRE. It should be interesting.

And so we see Civil War in the HRE....guess we know where a lot of unemployed Spaniards are going.....<