1493 War Thread

[Psychomeltdown]

Discuss the wars going on between Member controlled nations.

Discuss what can and can't be done by nations that are at war, resource limitations, monetary limitations, etc.

[Psychomeltdown]

1517:

SPRING: The Portuguese will be actively denying other European nations from trading in Africa, due to the simple reason of protecting their india Trade. The main concern is Africa right now.

There will be no declaration of war.

For the Portuguese this is simply a matter of destroying 'pirating' ships that operate out of the Kongo regions.

Forces in Portugal are on the move to positions of defense along the Spanish boarder, in costal cities, and the navy has consolidated and is preparing for responses by the other kingdoms involved.

[Psychomeltdown]

Okay, it seems like war time.

it's Portugal vs. whom?

Don't be shy, it's not time for secret agreements and the like.

[Keenir]

Okay, it seems like war time.

the Ottoman Empire is present.

[AJNolte]

War is always a good time for secret agreements.
Spain, of course, will be fighting you. The Hansa are still waiting to be bribed either way.

[Aussey]

The Kingdom of the Kongo and the Kingdom of Ndongo-Matamba, fresh out of war in the jungles of Katanga, are preparing for War as best they can. The fact that both do not have cities situated on the Atlantic Coast, helps them- the Portugese must sail up malaria infested rivers with mountains on either side of them to reach valleys; after that, a climb to the plateaus if they wish to even reach the cities. Despite recent Europeanization, battle in Africa, the Kongolese and Ndongolese-Matambans decide, should be battled African-style. There will be no formal war, atleast on the Kongolese and Ndongolese-Matamban fronts. The Spanish in the Kongo, and the Neapolitans in Ndongo-Matamba, of course, will fight as Europeans. The Africans, however, will resort to jungle tactics, hiding in trees, poison arrows, you know- typical African jungle fighting.

If the invading Portugese have enough men to actually even be a force to take the plateau cities, it will be a miracle indeed. Request to their European protectors of Spain and Naples-Sicily-Jerusalem respectively- the Kongo and Ndongo-Matamba begin for the defense of their African kingdoms.

[marl_d]

Crimean Khanate is there at the behest of the Ottomans

[RCTFI]

The HRE is pretty busy with its internal matters, but you can count on it giving some moral support to Spain. Although aside from cheering Spain on, it will not do that much.

[Keenir]

Crimean Khanate is there at the behest of the Ottomans

at the moment, the Crimeans are being held in reserve.

[AJNolte]

Are the Neapolitans onboard?

[The Sicilian]

Are the Neapolitans onboard?
Hell to the yes :D;):cool:

And Milan,
And the Pope
And a bunch of Italian merchant republics

[AJNolte]

Alright, now that we've roughly established who's in the war (unless Portugal has some allies), we need to figure out force ratios. I'd generally be inclined to say that, army wise, Spain has about a 3 to 2 advantage on the Portuguese on trained soldiers. However, given Spain's financial problems, I'll stipulate to an army of equivalent size, with a slightly smaller navy than Portugal (I'll stipulate to a 3 to 2 Portuguese advantage in ships).
Does this sound agreeable?
If so, we need to figure out what the Ottomans, Neapolitans Africans (I'm assuming there'll be some sort of African theater) and others have.

[Keenir]

Alright, now that we've roughly established who's in the war (unless Portugal has some allies), we need to figure out force ratios.
If so, we need to figure out what the Ottomans, Neapolitans Africans (I'm assuming there'll be some sort of African theater) and others have.

North African corsairs...don't know their stats.

Egypt...don't know if they'll be joining the fray.

Ottomans -- 9/10ths of the OTL Ottoman navy is present, as well as a few dozen ships that've been built in the last decade. 1/5th of the Ottoman army is aboard those new ships and older ships. (the Ottomans didn't have as strict a division between the "random soldier" and "random sailor" as others did)

[The Sicilian]

I dont know exactly what the standing army of Naples is but we have done quite a bit of war, so it is fairly high. We have a lot of manpower to draw from.

[Glen]

England and the Swiss will be providing mercenaries, but nationally neutral in this so long as not attacked.

Savoy has a treaty with Milan, but if Milan declares war without being attacked first, I don't know if that will hold.

One big unknown here still is France.....

[Psychomeltdown]

War is always a good time for secret agreements.
Spain, of course, will be fighting you. The Hansa are still waiting to be bribed either way.

If the Hansa are willing to be bribed. Then shall we say the larger chunks of the Caribbean can go to you, once Spain and Naples are made to submit? Portugal still wants South America, since we got there first and claimed it first. But the Caribbean is Spanish and once they lose...

The Kingdom of the Kongo and the Kingdom of Ndongo-Matamba, fresh out of war in the jungles of Katanga, are preparing for War as best they can. The fact that both do not have cities situated on the Atlantic Coast, helps them- the Portugese must sail up malaria infested rivers with mountains on either side of them to reach valleys; after that, a climb to the plateaus if they wish to even reach the cities. Despite recent Europeanization, battle in Africa, the Kongolese and Ndongolese-Matambans decide, should be battled African-style. There will be no formal war, atleast on the Kongolese and Ndongolese-Matamban fronts. The Spanish in the Kongo, and the Neapolitans in Ndongo-Matamba, of course, will fight as Europeans. The Africans, however, will resort to jungle tactics, hiding in trees, poison arrows, you know- typical African jungle fighting.

If the invading Portugese have enough men to actually even be a force to take the plateau cities, it will be a miracle indeed. Request to their European protectors of Spain and Naples-Sicily-Jerusalem respectively- the Kongo and Ndongo-Matamba begin for the defense of their African kingdoms.

there will be no Invasion of the Central Africa. Why do we need to? We can either blockade your coast (albeit a bit difficult) or ignore you. You'll have no ability to harm us, since i doubt you have any cannon laden ships, and if you do send troops to help Naples or Spain, they'll be stuck in siege duty or simply stuck on ships.

Once we've defeated the main powers, we'll probably wage economic war on your nations, unless you submit to our trade demands. Until then. we'll probably just raid the coast and sink any ship we see floating along your coast.

Hell to the yes :D;):cool:

And Milan,
And the Pope
And a bunch of Italian merchant republics

I'll keep saying this, the Med. Merchant states and economy will be dong not so good compared to 20 years before. the Portuguese have effectively chewed up a lot of the Arab shipping to India and has taken ahold of one of the major Muslim ports , Hormuz, therefore the Med Sea connection to india has been basically cut. That means the lucrative trade, the trade that Venice got rich of off, won't be there to provide a lot of money.

You'll have some financial difficulty in raising a large number of troops for a long period of time.

Alright, now that we've roughly established who's in the war (unless Portugal has some allies), we need to figure out force ratios. I'd generally be inclined to say that, army wise, Spain has about a 3 to 2 advantage on the Portuguese on trained soldiers. However, given Spain's financial problems, I'll stipulate to an army of equivalent size, with a slightly smaller navy than Portugal (I'll stipulate to a 3 to 2 Portuguese advantage in ships).
Does this sound agreeable?
If so, we need to figure out what the Ottomans, Neapolitans Africans (I'm assuming there'll be some sort of African theater) and others have.

I'll say that Portugal has about 1 for every 2 Spanish in the matter of armed troops, but you have to also take into account the logistics of your war. You may be able to occupy the some of Portugal territory, but you armies will be slogging through reinforced fortresses that stretch from the Portuguese/spanish boarder. Plus you'll have to rely on land based logistics and bad roads, not to mention that in Iberia you can't really field armies that number into huge numbers since they can't exactly feed off the land well.

The most you can probably shove into Portugal is about 25000 and we'll be able to easily match that and we'll be behind defensive fortifications. The only real way you can invade is through the south, the north is not as developed and your logistic situation will be even worse, since I doubt Spain has been much into infrastructure building with it's massive military. Plus you'll be fighting a mountain war, which is always difficult for invading troops.

For Portugal this will be a defensive war on land. We don't have a large army, but we do have a large navy and they are very experienced in fighting.

As for the navy ratio, i think it'll be 1 to 2, the 2 being in Portugal's favor. we've been on a massive ship building push since the beginning of the 1500s, a lot of it due to the India trade and the long logistics involved in it and a lot of it is due to simply greed the more ships we have the more we can bring back and sell. Trading ships in this era can easily be turned into war ships.

Beyond pirating targets of opportunity, they'll be no African theatre. The real war is going to happen in Europe and we're not going to be wasting time fighting some savages in jungles. Though piracy and attacks upon our remaining trade ships will probably increase due to less of a military presence along our trade route, but that'll only happen if we're involved in this war from more than a couple of years.


Hansa and England can get rich off this war, the warring factions will be needing supplies, men, and material and most of all MONEY. if they manage to stay out of it and instead provide all those things, then they'll be coming out on top instead of bankrupting themselves.

Naples I think would be heavy in the galleys, but light in the caravels and carracks, simply due to it's recent involvement in over seas trading and its continued reliance upon Med Trade for money making, unless you're raping Africa of it's wealth, i don't see it making you that much money, considering you're sharing the trade with Spain and Hansa.

Naval Power (compared to Portugal)
Portugal 10 (small amount of galleys operating in Med Sea)
Ottomans 7 (most of it being galleys)
Spain 5 (I'd think a good sized proportion would be galleys, since you've got trade and other matters going on in the Med sea).
Naples: 4 (like Ottomans, most would be galleys)
England: 3 (Heavy European trading/limited overseas trading, coastal ships and no galleys)
Hansa: 2 (due to late start in overseas trading, galleys in your southern states)



it may seem like Portugalwank here, but OTL Portugal had the lead among other nations in building ships and manning them, they were pretty much the premier power in matters concerning navies. in this TL, they've had more competition and they've gotten richer off trade, therefore a lot more effort was taken into building more ships, to protect it's trade and to bring in more trade from a more peaceful India.

Meanwhile Spain is near broke, Naples is losing it's main trade in the Med. Hansa is a growing power, England is developing along OTL lines, and the Ottomans are weaker.

[AJNolte]

Um:
A bit wanky. However, well-justified, so I'm tempted to agree to your 10, 7, 5, 4 breakdown for the naval participants.
And I'll add to that the fact that, assuming Hansa stays out of the war, the ratio would still be something like 16 to 10 in favor of the Alliance.
Army: I'll stipulate to a Spanish attacking force of between 30 and 35 thousand, withthe proviso that they'll have logistical difficulties.

Naples, Ottomans, will either of you be using land forces?
We really need to know what France is going to do. If we don't hear from them within 48 hours, I submit that we allow Glen to play as the French for the duration of the war.

[marl_d]

this is a bit of a side...Russia isn't going to be entering the war, seeing as the distance is a bit of an issue, but the Russian's are trading with all parties here and will demand compensation for any Trade or Naval vessels that are lost to piracy or being impressed into any navy....

Though Russia is "Allied" with the Ottomans, they don't see this as their war and can see the nice little profit a major war between the Western Countries could bring... :D:cool:

[Glen]

First off, a listing from wikipedia of OTL sea battles about a generation before and after the current speculated war:

1476 August 13 - French defeat Genoese near Cape St Vincent
1499 August 12, 20, 22 and 25 Zonchio (Sapienza/Navarino/First Lepanto) - Turks under Daoud Pasha defeat Venetians under Antonio Grimani and are able to capture the fortress of Lepanto
1500 August Modon (Second Lepanto) - Turks under Kemal Reis defeat Venetians

1509 February 3 Diu - Portugal's Indian viceroy defeats a combined Turkish/Egyptian, Venetian supported, fleet off Gujarat, India, and controls spice trade (First regualar action between galleys and sailing vessels?)
1510 - Maltese under Prégent de Bidoux defeat Venetians
1512? Genoese under Andrea Doria defeat Moors at Algiers
1512 August 10 St Mathieu - English defeat French off Brest; Regent and Marie la Cordelière sunk



Naples I think would be heavy in the galleys, but light in the caravels and carracks, simply due to it's recent involvement in over seas trading and its continued reliance upon Med Trade for money making, unless you're raping Africa of it's wealth, i don't see it making you that much money, considering you're sharing the trade with Spain and Hansa.

Naval Power (compared to Portugal)
Portugal 10 (small amount of galleys operating in Med Sea)
Ottomans 7 (most of it being galleys)
Spain 5 (I'd think a good sized proportion would be galleys, since you've got trade and other matters going on in the Med sea).
Naples: 4 (like Ottomans, most would be galleys)
England: 3 (Heavy European trading/limited overseas trading, coastal ships and no galleys)
Hansa: 2 (due to late start in overseas trading, galleys in your southern states)

it may seem like Portugalwank here, but OTL Portugal had the lead among other nations in building ships and manning them, they were pretty much the premier power in matters concerning navies. in this TL, they've had more competition and they've gotten richer off trade, therefore a lot more effort was taken into building more ships, to protect it's trade and to bring in more trade from a more peaceful India.

Okay, the Turks do seem to still be heavy in galleys. However, I'd argue for Spain and Naples to be more into Carracks by this point, as they initially developed in the Med in the mid 15th century.

England while subtle in their drift from OTL, it must be remembered has fought less in the 1490s and 1500s, and more significantly, has been receiving an influx of trade from Norasia, which has substantially enriched the nation compared to OTL, as well as giving funding AND the impetus to further develop their shipping.

My take on the rankings.

Portugal 10 (small amount of galleys operating in Med Sea)

Spain 7 (I'd think a good sized portion would have already been Carracks, recalling where the ship developed, as well as the fact that this Spain had until recently several island interests in the Med.)

England 6 (We were moving towards Carracks anyway, have even OTL a tradition at sea and some success, ITTL a North American trade interest that needs to be maintained and protected, and the funds coming in to do it that do not need to be spent otherwise)

Ottomans 5 (most of it being galleys, I agree, and dropping down its rating here)

Hansa: 4 (Some of the main shipbuilders of this era, they've fared better politically ITTL, and should not be underestimated.)

Naples: 3 (New kid on the block, but most are going to be carracks or even caravals (though those aren't as good for combat.))

Though really, these are somewhat arbitrary. While Portugal leads the pack, they are a power, not a superpower.

Really, instead of rating them, I'd rank them this way:

1) Portugal
2) Spain
3) England
4) Ottoman
5) tie Hansa and Naples.

That's my first rough approximation.

[Keenir]

Naval Power (compared to Portugal)
Portugal 10 (small amount of galleys operating in Med Sea)
Ottomans 7 (most of it being galleys)

I can agree with that....at least in regard to the power galleys can project.

OTL Portugal had the lead among other nations in building ships and manning them,
in this TL, they've had more competition

...from...?


Meanwhile
the Ottomans are weaker.

if I may ask, how do you see them as weaker (than in OTL?) ?

Ottomans -- 9/10ths of the OTL Ottoman navy is present, as well as a few dozen ships that've been built in the last decade. 1/5th of the Ottoman army is aboard those new ships and older ships. (the Ottomans didn't have as strict a division between the "random soldier" and "random sailor" as others did)

just counting the Golden Horn in Istanbul, there were 114 docks, each of which could hold two ships -- that was by OTL 1522; with the surge in dock-building and ship-building in this timeline's past decade and a half, I think its fair to say that number's been reached by the time of the war.

...and there are also docks with ships in the Balkans and in spots along the Anatolian coast in this timeline.

[Keenir]

Okay, the Turks do seem to still be heavy in galleys. However, I'd argue for Spain and Naples to be more into Carracks by this point, as they initially developed in the Med in the mid 15th century.

England while subtle in their drift from OTL, it must be remembered has fought less in the 1490s and 1500s, and more significantly, has been receiving an influx of trade from Norasia, which has substantially enriched the nation compared to OTL, as well as giving funding AND the impetus to further develop their shipping.

true....but England hasn't had any naval (military) challenges -- not even from the Norasians themselves.

whereas the Ottomans have had to deal with little things like pirates and Venetian plotting. (and remember whose navy it was that helped secure Jerusalem in the Mamluk War)

My take on the rankings.
England 6 (We were moving towards Carracks anyway, have even OTL a tradition at sea and some success, ITTL a North American trade interest that needs to be maintained and protected, and the funds coming in to do it that do not need to be spent otherwise)

Ottomans 5 (most of it being galleys, I agree, and dropping down its rating here)

just wondering - why not a 6-6 tie between England and Ottomans? (why is the rating dropping for the Ottomans, and not for England? (England isn't even defending its ships - so far, it hasn't had to))

[Glen]

true....but England hasn't had any naval (military) challenges -- not even from the Norasians themselves.

No, but they have had to increase the total number of ships, and they merchantmen in this time are armed.


whereas the Ottomans have had to deal with little things like pirates and Venetian plotting. (and remember whose navy it was that helped secure Jerusalem in the Mamluk War)

just wondering - why not a 6-6 tie between England and Ottomans? (why is the rating dropping for the Ottomans, and not for England? (England isn't even defending its ships - so far, it hasn't had to))

Mostly due to the galleys seeming predominant in Ottoman, plus I haven't seen a lot of evidence for reasons for investment in shipbuilding from the Ottomans, nor new sources of revenue to bolster that. I could be wrong, of course.

[Keenir]

No, but they have had to increase the total number of ships, and they merchantmen in this time are armed.

ah...yes, the guns. all well and good, but not as effective as cannons. (the Ottomans always had a minimum of 3 cannons per ship, and tended to prefer to outnumber whomever they were up against, shipwise)

Mostly due to the galleys seeming predominant in Ottoman,

yes they are. (well, those and galeasses)

then again, given that their fleet pretty much largely stays in the Med and the Black Sea, they haven't had a need to diversify a lot...yet.

plus I haven't seen a lot of evidence for reasons for investment in shipbuilding from the Ottomans, nor new sources of revenue to bolster that. I could be wrong, of course.

revenue - the annual taxes gathered in the lands taken from the Mamluks (Syria, etc)...as well as tithes from the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

[Glen]

ah...yes, the guns. all well and good, but not as effective as cannons. (the Ottomans always had a minimum of 3 cannons per ship, and tended to prefer to outnumber whomever they were up against, shipwise)

Cannon too.


yes they are. (well, those and galeasses)

then again, given that their fleet pretty much largely stays in the Med and the Black Sea, they haven't had a need to diversify a lot...yet.

Right. But in the end, that's where I really edged them.

revenue - the annual taxes gathered in the lands taken from the Mamluks (Syria, etc)...as well as tithes from the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

Fair enough. That should just about pay the costs of taking those lands back, though you'll be making some real profits off them soon....

[Glen]

Temporarily closing this thread so we can concentrate on the timeline review. Once we weed out the timeline prior to this series of events, I'll open this one back up.

[Glen]

Temporarily closing this thread so we can concentrate on the timeline review. Once we weed out the timeline prior to this series of events, I'll open this one back up.

Unlocking this thread so people may help with the timeline review.