ROME DESTROYED IN 450 BC

[robertp6165]

The discussion in the "Carthage Triumphant" thread got me to thinking...

In OTL, the Carthaginians had an alliance with a league of Etruscan cities against the Greeks of southern Italy and Sicily during the period from roughly 500-350 BC. Etruscan and Carthaginian fleets actually cooperated in battle against the Greeks, and gave the Greeks a hard time of it. Meanwhile, the Etruscan cities were also beginning to be engaged in conflict against Rome...but Carthage was at that time signing treaties of friendship with Rome. But it didn't have to be that way.

Let's suppose that, instead, the Etruscans and the Carthaginians sign a new treaty in 450 BC which commits them to support each other against not only the Greeks, but also Rome. Rome has not, by this time, had time to establish control over more than a few nearby Latin cities, and is quite weak at this time. The Carthaginians and Etruscans defeat the tiny Roman army, capture the city, slaughter the inhabitants (or sell them all into slavery) and destroy the town itself. Later, Etruscan colonists re-settle the site, but the new town, like other Etruscan cities, is never able to form more than a temporary alliance with other Etruscan cities, and Italy never is united under one power, or if it is, it happens much later and a different culture prevails.

So with Rome removed from the picture, what happens? I see several possible outcomes...

--Will Carthage prevail in it's wars with the Greeks of southern Italy and Sicily? If so, what will be it's relationship with the Hellenistic kingdoms to the east?

--Will Pyrrhus of Epirus defeat and conquer Carthage, extending Hellenistic rule throughout the Mediterranean basin?

--Can the Etruscans eventually get their act together and unite, perhaps in response to pressure from the Celts, and become a rival to Carthage for power in the western Mediterranean?

--Would some other non-Etruscan Italian city or tribe (Samnites, for example)be able to play the role of Rome and unite Italy (and eventually, the Mediterranean world) under it's domination?

--Could the Celts eventually (in Gaul, perhaps, or in Iberia) form a unified state capable of surviving for a long period of time?

--Perhaps the Parthians re-establish control over the whole extent of the old Achaemenid Persian Empire, and even invade Europe? They pretty much spanked the Hellenistic armies they came into contact with, but Rome did a better job of resisting them (not always, of course, but enough to keep them out of Syria, Anatolia, Palestine, and Egypt most of the time, and Europe all the time).

Are there any possibilities I am leaving out?

[Phaeton]

Nope I think, that about covers it.

[chrispi]

I've always been partial to ATLs where Greece conquers the Roman barbarians. :D (See Toynbee's Alexandrian Ecumene, or Carl Sagan's musings on the subject.)

More likely than not, a successful Hellenistic world would likely be interplanetary or even interstellar by now.

[LordKalvan]

More likely than not, a successful Hellenistic world would likely be interplanetary or even interstellar by now.
Why that? I would be guessing exactly the opposite: an Hellenistic world would be likely to stagnate, and fragment very quickly into smaller and smaller warring and squabbling successor states.
I would like to make two points:
- the Hellenistic culture was of Greek origin, but at the same time very heavily influenced by Eastern views of thinking. I expect that the Greek component would be progressively diluted.
- a point which is often overlooked is that Rome built an empire which lasted more or less from 150 BC to 450 AD. Or you might even say that in a different form it survived until 1450 AD. There are no comparable achievements in all the history of the world (the only possible comparison might be China, but I rate the Roman empire the better one).
- Rome and Romans picked up the torch of civilisation from the Greeks, and made it burn brighter and stronger to create the world in which we live. Which might not be the best of the worlds, but a case could be made that OTL is the best of possible worlds

[chrispi]

Why that? I would be guessing exactly the opposite: an Hellenistic world would be likely to stagnate, and fragment very quickly into smaller and smaller warring and squabbling successor states.
I would like to make two points:
- the Hellenistic culture was of Greek origin, but at the same time very heavily influenced by Eastern views of thinking. I expect that the Greek component would be progressively diluted.
- a point which is often overlooked is that Rome built an empire which lasted more or less from 150 BC to 450 AD. Or you might even say that in a different form it survived until 1450 AD. There are no comparable achievements in all the history of the world (the only possible comparison might be China, but I rate the Roman empire the better one).
- Rome and Romans picked up the torch of civilisation from the Greeks, and made it burn brighter and stronger to create the world in which we live. Which might not be the best of the worlds, but a case could be made that OTL is the best of possible worlds

The only real "torch" of note that the Romans bore regarding Greek civilization was the one that they used to set the Library of Alexandria ablaze. Everything else was a sick parody. An ATL with a long-lived Alexander the Great (and his heir through Roxanne, Alexander IV Aegeos) would see the Hellenistic world more like China, where dynasties come and go, but there is always an Alexander, or someone who wants to be him...

I most certainly don't argue that OTL is the best of all possible worlds, like Dr. Pangloss in Candide.

[LordKalvan]

The only real "torch" of note that the Romans bore regarding Greek civilization was the one that they used to set the Library of Alexandria ablaze. Everything else was a sick parody. An ATL with a long-lived Alexander the Great (and his heir through Roxanne, Alexander IV Aegeos) would see the Hellenistic world more like China, where dynasties come and go, but there is always an Alexander, or someone who wants to be him...

I most certainly don't argue that OTL is the best of all possible worlds, like Dr. Pangloss in Candide.

I feel you are supporting my point: even if the Alexandrian empire were to last (which I doubt very very much, even under the most auspicious of PODs), it would become like OTL China, i.e. a place where bureaucracy, state pageants and stagnation are rampant (the Byzantine empire comes also to my mind).

In a way, what happened OTL should have given many more chances to a successful Alexandrine TL to develop: you had much better than a single, huge and very difficult to manage empire. The Diadochs were lords of much more manageable kingdoms. You would expect one of them might have managed to consolidate his holdings, create a viable dinasty and sooner or later claim the mantle of Alexander. This did not happen.

The prosecution rests.

[chrispi]

I feel you are supporting my point: even if the Alexandrian empire were to last (which I doubt very very much, even under the most auspicious of PODs), it would become like OTL China, i.e. a place where bureaucracy, state pageants and stagnation are rampant (the Byzantine empire comes also to my mind).

In a way, what happened OTL should have given many more chances to a successful Alexandrine TL to develop: you had much better than a single, huge and very difficult to manage empire. The Diadochs were lords of much more manageable kingdoms. You would expect one of them might have managed to consolidate his holdings, create a viable dinasty and sooner or later claim the mantle of Alexander. This did not happen.

The prosecution rests.

Just because I said that a large Greek empire will be like China in one respect doesn't mean that the Hellenic world will be like the Orient in all respects. Clues lie in Alexander himself: his conquests were explorations as much as anything else, the drive to see what was beyond the horizon was what propelled the Macedon army of OTL beyond the Indus. No comparable expansionism is found in Chinese history (the trading junks exploring Africa in the 15th century notwithstanding.) There are other differences between Greece and China, the most important of which, perhaps, was the invention of democracy (an offshoot of the argumentative nature of the Hellenes, no doubt!)

One feature of a strong Alexandrian empire (or Ecumene if you prefer) is that it would have to be very loose, as communication was poor at the time, a feature it shares in the Persian empire, so expect the satrap system to continue. All in all I expect this Ecumene to be less like the Roman Empire and more like the Holy Roman Empire!

[LordKalvan]

There are a lot of differences between China and greece, obviously. Such as the poor productivity of Greek land, which forced the greeks to migrate.
But we are not talking of Greece, are we? We are talking of an Oikumenes were the drop of greek ink is diluted in tons of "barbarians" (a la Greek, obviously).
Democracy was invented in greece, agreed. It was very well suited for that contentious and brilliant people (I like Greeks, even if at times they are unsufferable! but the world without Greeks would be a sad and drab place).
But...democracy was good when the voters were a few thou. of citizens. not when you have a divine king reigning over an empire.
It might be a situation similar to italian cities in the late middle ages (12th-13th centuries), which under many aspects resembled the Greec poleis: again civilised, contentious and treacherous. And democratic (as far as the concept of our democracy can be translated to their way of doing politics).
Or as another examples similar to Swiss cantons: everyone would agree that the population meeting on a forest glade, discussing and voting is the epythome of democracy. But when you have to go to a national state (if not an empire)....

Mind, it's a bit like the discussion between Legolas and Gimli in the Lord of the Rings: you have chose the glory that was Greece, I prefer the majesty that was Rome :o

[Faeelin]

I feel you are supporting my point: even if the Alexandrian empire were to last (which I doubt very very much, even under the most auspicious of PODs), it would become like OTL China, i.e. a place where bureaucracy, state pageants and stagnation are rampant (the Byzantine empire comes also to my mind).

There's something ironic about some one saying the roman empire saved us from bureaucracy, state pageants, and stagnation, and then citing how the Byzantine (Roman) Empire was suffering from those.

In a way, what happened OTL should have given many more chances to a successful Alexandrine TL to develop: you had much better than a single, huge and very difficult to manage empire. The Diadochs were lords of much more manageable kingdoms. You would expect one of them might have managed to consolidate his holdings, create a viable dinasty and sooner or later claim the mantle of Alexander. This did not happen.

The prosecution rests.

A case could be made that this is what happened.

[LordKalvan]

There's something ironic about some one saying the roman empire saved us from bureaucracy, state pageants, and stagnation, and then citing how the Byzantine (Roman) Empire was suffering from those.



A case could be made that this is what happened.
LOL, that's just apparences. The Byzantine empire (a personal opinion) is how the Greeks re-visited and changed the Roman empire. Even if the Byzantine still had SPQR on their shields, they were quite different.
As far as bureaucracy, Rome (at least until Caesar) considered it a despicable and perverted practice. Which makes some sense: bureaucracy is a typical product of the "water empires", and Rome was never that.
About the Diadochs: sorry, but I've not get yr point

[Faeelin]

LOL, that's just apparences. The Byzantine empire (a personal opinion) is how the Greeks re-visited and changed the Roman empire. Even if the Byzantine still had SPQR on their shields, they were quite different.

They were different, but not that different. The change was gradual.

As far as bureaucracy, Rome (at least until Caesar) considered it a despicable and perverted practice. Which makes some sense: bureaucracy is a typical product of the "water empires", and Rome was never that.
About the Diadochs: sorry, but I've not get yr point

I'm a bit confused. Rome, first of all, had a bureaucracy way before that, going back to the Carthaginian wars. And how was an Empire that ruled the Mediterranean not a water empire?

A lot of Greeks saw Rome as the restoration of universal rule, once the genocide was done.

Besides, I think it's arguable that the Romans get a better rap than they deserve. These are the people who invented Crucifixition, after all.

Ceasar boasted of slaying a few million people and enslaving a few million more in Gaul. When it looked like the Romans would be kicked out during the reign of Mithridates in the East, 80,000 romans were killed in a revolt in the Eastern Med.

Boudicca, the Queen of a loyal vassal tribe, was basically beaten while her daughters were raped for defending their last possessions from the Romans.

[robertp6165]

Mind, it's a bit like the discussion between Legolas and Gimli in the Lord of the Rings: you have chose the glory that was Greece, I prefer the majesty that was Rome :o

But is that really the only choice we have here? Rome actually cut short several interesting societies which could have become great in their own right, given time to further develop.

For example, the Etruscan city states were abandoning monarchy and establishing Republics when the Romans put an end to their independent existence, and the Celts of Gaul were gradually consolidating, becoming urbanized, and had recently (in some areas) adopted writing from the Greeks when Julius Caesar marched north. Other examples include the Hasmonean state in Judea, and of course Carthage.

I think the really interesting thing about this POD is the potential evolution of these societies that Rome extinguished pre-maturely.

[Hendryk]

I feel you are supporting my point: even if the Alexandrian empire were to last (which I doubt very very much, even under the most auspicious of PODs), it would become like OTL China, i.e. a place where bureaucracy, state pageants and stagnation are rampant (the Byzantine empire comes also to my mind).
Uh oh, no dissing China within sight of this very partial and prejudiced member! Both of you have a point about the comparative merits of Greek and Roman civilizations, but don't dismiss China as a stagnating empire. It only appears this way because official historians had a vested interest in emphasizing continuity rather than change, but in reality the Chinese empire was for most of its history a dynamic and resilient system, and it took the synergy of civil war (the Taiping uprising: 20 million dead!), foreign occupation, opium foisted on the population (by the same Western countries who now fight drug smuggling at their own borders) and a string of uncommonly corrupt and incompetent rulers to eventually bring it down.
When comparing the Chinese and Roman empires, keep in mind that in the Western world the only country that can compete with China in terms of historical heritage is Egypt. Imagine if you will an Egypt the size of Europe (and then some) that would have maintained political and cultural continuity until the early 20th century: that's China.

[LordKalvan]

They were different, but not that different. The change was gradual.
The change was gradual. But by the time of Justinian it was also irreversible.



I'm a bit confused. Rome, first of all, had a bureaucracy way before that, going back to the Carthaginian wars. And how was an Empire that ruled the Mediterranean not a water empire?
A "water empire" has nothing to do with the sea. It is a definition of a state where the agriculture must be supported by irrigation (Egypt and China come to mind), and where the stranglehold on society is the capacity of witholding water for irrigation. These kind of states are characterized by a strong and poweful bureaucracy, and there are lists of citizens, and records of land property very accurate.

A lot of Greeks saw Rome as the restoration of universal rule, once the genocide was done.

Besides, I think it's arguable that the Romans get a better rap than they deserve. These are the people who invented Crucifixition, after all.

Maybe you're right. OTOH, neither the Huns nor the Spaniards of the 16th Century got a very good character report, even if they were quite successful in conquering, slaughtering and in general in imposing their rule over other civilizations. The Romans did, even from the same people they enslaved and killed in the tens of thousands (aka, the Gauls, the Germans, and so on). What does it mean?
I really don't know, possibly it is a question without sense.
For many reasons, even personal ones, I've not a lot of sympathy for the Romans (in particular the modern ones :D ). The Romans of yore are another matter

Ceasar boasted of slaying a few million people and enslaving a few million more in Gaul. When it looked like the Romans would be kicked out during the reign of Mithridates in the East, 80,000 romans were killed in a revolt in the Eastern Med.

Boudicca, the Queen of a loyal vassal tribe, was basically beaten while her daughters were raped for defending their last possessions from the Romans.

A few MILLIONS?? The final solution of the Gallic problem, you mean? :D

[LordKalvan]

But is that really the only choice we have here? Rome actually cut short several interesting societies which could have become great in their own right, given time to further develop.

For example, the Etruscan city states were abandoning monarchy and establishing Republics when the Romans put an end to their independent existence, and the Celts of Gaul were gradually consolidating, becoming urbanized, and had recently (in some areas) adopted writing from the Greeks when Julius Caesar marched north. Other examples include the Hasmonean state in Judea, and of course Carthage.

I think the really interesting thing about this POD is the potential evolution of these societies that Rome extinguished pre-maturely.
No doubt. But I am (lol, we most are, at least on this site) the sons and heirs of Greeks and Romans. It would make almost as big a difference to eliminate Christianity

[Paul Spring]

Besides, I think it's arguable that the Romans get a better rap than they deserve. These are the people who invented Crucifixition, after all.

Not true. Crucifixion was used by Carthaginians and Greeks long before the Romans adopted the practice. I believe I read somewhere that it may have first been used by some of the Phoenicians. In any case, when the Romans adopted the practice it had become widespread throughout much of the Mediterranean as a form of execution.

[robertp6165]

Maybe you're right. OTOH, neither the Huns nor the Spaniards of the 16th Century got a very good character report, even if they were quite successful in conquering, slaughtering and in general in imposing their rule over other civilizations. The Romans did, even from the same people they enslaved and killed in the tens of thousands (aka, the Gauls, the Germans, and so on). What does it mean?

Most of those peoples did not write histories. Those who did (the Greeks, for example) wrote them while under the rule of the Romans, and the historians were seeking to ingratiate themselves with the ruling authorities. Most histories of Rome were written by Romans, and with a Roman bias. Most histories of the Huns were written by Romans...with a Roman bias. Most histories of the Spaniards in America...or the ones that most people are familiar with, at any rate...were written by their enemies. I think that accounts for the difference in the "character reports."

[robertp6165]

Besides, I think it's arguable that the Romans get a better rap than they deserve. These are the people who invented Crucifixition, after all.

Not true. Crucifixion was used by Carthaginians and Greeks long before the Romans adopted the practice. I believe I read somewhere that it may have first been used by some of the Phoenicians. In any case, when the Romans adopted the practice it had become widespread throughout much of the Mediterranean as a form of execution.

That's true. IIRC, Alexander the Great had the men who murdered King Darius of Persia crucified. And the Carthaginians were definitely using it very early on, even before Rome was founded.

[robertp6165]

No doubt. But I am (lol, we most are, at least on this site) the sons and heirs of Greeks and Romans. It would make almost as big a difference to eliminate Christianity

This is true. But then, the whole point of an alternate history board is to speculate on ALTERNATE history. And eliminating Rome opens up a lot of fascinating possibilities.

[Faeelin]

Besides, I think it's arguable that the Romans get a better rap than they deserve. These are the people who invented Crucifixition, after all.

Not true. Crucifixion was used by Carthaginians and Greeks long before the Romans adopted the practice. I believe I read somewhere that it may have first been used by some of the Phoenicians. In any case, when the Romans adopted the practice it had become widespread throughout much of the Mediterranean as a form of execution.

Alright, I withdraw delivering credit for this wonderful thing to the Romans. I stand by the rest, however.

[Faeelin]

The change was gradual. But by the time of Justinian it was also irreversible.

In what sense? The Byzantines kept the idea that a person could become emperor, by hook or by crook; they kept the universality of Rome. They lost the togas and Latin, but rome was more than that.

A "water empire" has nothing to do with the sea. It is a definition of a state where the agriculture must be supported by irrigation (Egypt and China come to mind), and where the stranglehold on society is the capacity of witholding water for irrigation. These kind of states are characterized by a strong and poweful bureaucracy, and there are lists of citizens, and records of land property very accurate.

Oh, you mean the hydraulic empires. Okay. Leaving aside the idea that Chinese agriculture is necessarily dependent on irrigation, I don't think this is accurate in any case. Rome had a legal system, taxation, coinage... what else do you want?


Maybe you're right. OTOH, neither the Huns nor the Spaniards of the 16th Century got a very good character report, even if they were quite successful in conquering, slaughtering and in general in imposing their rule over other civilizations.

Nope. But then, judging by the repeated revolts against Roman rule, neither did they.

The Romans did, even from the same people they enslaved and killed in the tens of thousands (aka, the Gauls, the Germans, and so on). What does it mean?

First, I don't think we have any real records from the Gauls or the Germans. We do have romanisation, but that tended to follow after conquest.

The Gauls were picking up civilization in any case, with towns with several thousand people, and acquiring the Greek alphabet.

A few MILLIONS?? The final solution of the Gallic problem, you mean? :D

"According to Plutarch, the whole campaign resulted in 800 conquered cities, 300 subdued tribes, one million men sold to slavery and another three million dead in battle fields. Ancient historians are notorious for exaggerating numbers of this kind, but Caesar's conquest of Gaul was certainly the greatest military triumph since the campaigns of Alexander the Great."

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Julius_Caesar#The_First_Triumvirate_and_the_Gallic _War

[Historico]

Can't wait to see your timeline for this Robert, I would definatley like to see an Estrucan controlled Italy and and Stronger Carthage untill AD, I just have a few questions however. If The growth of Carthage will excede than it did in OTL, will it attract the eyes of Phillip of Macedon and his son Alexander? Will Egypt once again grow in might, and Challenge Carthage for dominating controll of Africa? Could The Peloppenesian wars outcome be different, and we actually see an Athen's based United Hellenic country?

[Croesus]

Some brief observations before I must depart...


--Will Carthage prevail in it's wars with the Greeks of southern Italy and Sicily? If so, what will be it's relationship with the Hellenistic kingdoms to the east?


No. Sicily matures with a Carthaginian east and Greek west.


--Will Pyrrhus of Epirus defeat and conquer Carthage, extending Hellenistic rule throughout the Mediterranean basin?


No. He washes over Carthaginian Sicily, realises the scale of the fight he's picked and returns (undefeated) by degrees to mainland Greece.


--Can the Etruscans eventually get their act together and unite, perhaps in response to pressure from the Celts, and become a rival to Carthage for power in the western Mediterranean?


No. The Etruscans remain fragmented politically, though religious ties strengthen to the extent that they are able to resist Gallic incursions but not to engage in lengthy external campaigning.


--Would some other non-Etruscan Italian city or tribe (Samnites, for example)be able to play the role of Rome and unite Italy (and eventually, the Mediterranean world) under it's domination?


I thought you'd set this up as a non-event for the tl. Or was that just for Etruria/Rome. The Greeks will never do it, and the Samnites quite possibly. Mountain peoples have a tendency to have dramatic periods of conquest. Maybe they bought all the Roman slaves and thence matured their societies and institutions... :rolleyes:

--Could the Celts eventually (in Gaul, perhaps, or in Iberia) form a unified state capable of surviving for a long period of time?


Probably, though only after periods of Germanic invasions put some steel into their institutions of governance. Spain becomes the sleeper of the impending future world with a vigorous mix of Carthaginian, Greek and Celtiberian influences.


--Perhaps the Parthians re-establish control over the whole extent of the old Achaemenid Persian Empire, and even invade Europe? They pretty much spanked the Hellenistic armies they came into contact with, but Rome did a better job of resisting them (not always, of course, but enough to keep them out of Syria, Anatolia, Palestine, and Egypt most of the time, and Europe all the time).


No. Their interest in the west is minor when compared to their eastern interests and Egyptian pretensions.

I note with interest that I've been quite rough on two of my favourite cultures (Carthage and Etruria). The former expands westward while the latter becomes impotent.

One thing left out is the potential for a Massilian sub-empire expanding up the Rhone and across into modern day Barcelona. I think this might have some staying power.

More later, must go.

Croesus

[wkwillis]

Rome exterminated a lot of languages. Carthage was a trading empire. It was based on a fleet. We would have a more diverse history and world if the Carthaginians had survived.
Sort of like Japan. There was a great battle by the Honshu lords against a trading, ship power clan from the southern islands (Taira?). The ship based clan lost and Japan became one country. Japan did not conquer North America because of that inward turning and monolithic state. This might have been a good thing, but not for Japan.

[JHPier]

The discussion in the "Carthage Triumphant" thread got me to thinking...

In OTL, the Carthaginians had an alliance with a league of Etruscan cities against the Greeks of southern Italy and Sicily during the period from roughly 500-350 BC. Etruscan and Carthaginian fleets actually cooperated in battle against the Greeks, and gave the Greeks a hard time of it. Meanwhile, the Etruscan cities were also beginning to be engaged in conflict against Rome...but Carthage was at that time signing treaties of friendship with Rome.

This is not IMO really realistic.

Rome in nearly all respects but language was itself an Etruscan city. Latium (including Rome) had been an integral part of the Etruscan civilization from the beginning of Villanovan times. Rome had developed as a city at the same pace as the other south Etrurian centers and well in advance of inland Etruscan centers as Arezzo, Perugia or Cortona. Illustrative is that Falerii, north of Rome on the Tiber, is usually bracketed among the Etruscans, despite speaking Faliscan, Latin's closest linguistic relation. Consider the Etruscan war Rome fought in the 350's, in which the 'Etruscans' consisted of Tarquinia and Falerii. The reason Rome is so sharply distinguished from the Etruscans is because all our ancient sources are roman or wrote as if they were.
Rome was also down to the mid-4thC a firm ally of Caere, leader of the Etruscans allied with Carthage, (which is probably why the Carthaginians concludes those treaties with Rome in the first place) against other Etruscans such as Veii and Tarquinia.

Not that there aren't ways to eliminate Rome.

Veii might have prevailed 'stead of the other way round.

The latins might have won the battle of Suessa.

[robertp6165]

Here is the beginning of the timeline I am working on, with the events leading up to the destruction of Rome...

ROME DESTROYED IN 450 B.C.

c. 900 BC--Etruscans arrive in Italy, probably from Asia Minor. Over the next two
centuries they establish themselves as a ruling caste over local Villanovan villages in the
northern part of Italy, which begin to grow into city states under Etruscan rule.

814 BC--Carthage founded by Elissa (Dido), sister of the King of Tyre.

800? BC--First Phoenician presence on Sardinia.

c. 800 BC--The Greek version of the Phoenician alphabet is first used, and the earliest
iron age societies...proto-Celtic peoples...develop in Germany and Austria.
c. 800 BC onward--Greece is gradually emerging from the Dark Ages following the fall
of the Mycenaean civilization. An increase in trade and the establishment of
governmental defense fortifications allows for the emergence of Greek city-states (the
Polis) from tribal communities. These grow up around marketplaces and include cities
such as Athens, Thebes, Sparta, Corinth and Megara on the Greek mainland. For the most
part, the Greek city-states are similar in their political evolution, with the exception of
Sparta's elite dictatorship. Most begin their political histories as monarchies, evolve to
oligarchies, are overthrown during the age of the tyrants (c. 650-500 BC) and eventually
establish democracies in the sixth and fifth centuries. Of the Greek city-states, Athens
and Sparta will be the two most important.

770 BC--Founding of Gadir, gateway to Spanish silver.

760 BC - Founding of the city of Cumae as a Greek trading station by Euboean colonists.

753 BC--Traditional date for the founding of Rome (legendary) by Romulus and Remus.
After killing his brother, Romulus reigns as the first Roman king. Rape of the Sabines at
Rome.

750-500 BC--Heavy Greek colonization of Sicily, Southern Italy, Southern Provence,
Andalusia and Cyrenaica, encircling Carthaginian and Etruscan territory.

c. 750 BC--Etruscan voyages towards southern Tyrrhenian Sea and start of Etruscan
'thalassocracy.' Etruscan sea power and merchant trading begins to make itself felt all
over the western Mediterranean. Also at this time, Euboean Greeks found Naxos and
Megarian Greeks found Megara Hyblaea in Sicily.

c. 750-650 BC--Hoplite phalanx adopted by cities of Greece. Previously fighting was
carried out by a relatively few warriors with a shield, sword and spear with no armor and
were not organized in a phalanx. Hoplites had defensive armor and fought in close
formation, phalanx, a series of rows. Later on, the phalanx will be adopted by the
Romans and Etruscans as a result of contact with the Greeks.
c. 735-716 BC--First Messenian War. Sparta conquers the neighboring state of Messenia.
The population of Messenia is enslaved and becomes the “helot� class in Spartan society.

733 BC--Syracuse founded by Corinthian Greeks in Sicily.

730 BC - Date of founding of the city of Rhegium by Greeks from Chalcis.

716 BC--Romulus, the legendary founder and first King of Rome, dies. Numa Pompilius
becomes king of Rome.

c. 710 BC--Achaean Greeks found Sybaris and Croton, Laconians (Spartans) found
Tarentum, all in southern Italy. Also at about this time, the Etruscans adopt the Euboean
Greek alphabet.

c. 700 BC--Etruscan city states unite in a loose confederation which begins to dominate
northern and central Italy.

c. 700-670 BC--Rhodian Greeks and Cretans found Gela, Locrian Greeks found Locri
and Epizephyrii, Greeks from Colophon found Siris, all towns in Sicily and southern
Italy.

673 BC--Death of Numa Pompilius, King of Rome. Tullius Hostilius becomes king of
Rome. During his reign, he builds the Curia Hostilia, the Senate House.

654 BC--Carthage founds colony in the Balearic Islands at Ibiza.

642 BC--Roman King Tullius Hostilius dies. King Ancus Marcius succeeds him.

c. 615 BC--King Ancus Marcius dies in Rome. Shortly afterward, Rome is occupied by
the Etruscans, possibly as the result of an invasion. From this point, for the next 100
years, Etruscan Kings will rule in Rome, beginning with the rule of Tarquinius Priscus.

600 BC--Carthage fails to prevent the Phocaean Greek colony at Massilia (Marseilles), on
the south coast of what is now France. The Greeks of Cumae (on the coast south of
Rome) found the city of Neapolis (modern Naples) on the coast to the south of Cumae.
Also in this year, Rome conquers the city of Alba Longa, marking the beginning of it’s
expansion at the expense of it’s Latin neighbors.

580 BC--First attempt by Greeks to drive Phoenicians out of Sicily. Also at this time, the
Roman Forum is established during the rule of Tarquinius Priscus.

579 BC--Death of Tarquinius Priscus, Etruscan King of Rome, who is axed in the head by
two farmers. He is succeeded by Servius Tullius.

574 BC--Tyre falls to Nebuchadnezzar. Carthage on its own more than ever.

550 BC--Carthage allies with the Etruscans against the Greeks. Also in this year, a
Carthaginian force led by Malchus defeats the Greeks in Sicily, but is vanquished in
Sardinia. Malchus is banished, marches on Carthage, but is caught and executed.

550? BC--Carthaginian colonies formed along coast of Africa, Algeria, Hadrumetum,
Leptis.

540-535 BC--Etruscan-Carthaginian coalition against Phocaeans of Corsica. Naval battle
of the Sardinian Sea is a defeat for the Greeks. As a result, the Phocaean colony in
Corsica is destroyed, the Etruscans establish control of Corsica, and Carthage takes first
steps towards conquest of Sardinia.

539 BC--Asian Phoenicia falls to Cyrus the Great of Persia.

535 BC--Death of the second Etruscan King of Rome, Servius Tullius. He is succeeded
by King Lucius Tarquinius Superbus (“Tarquin the Proud�).

c. 530 BC--Etruscan power in central Italy at its height.

524 BC--Battle of Cumae; Greeks halt Etruscan expansion to the south.

509 BC--Overthrow of the Etruscan king Tarquin the Proud and destruction of the
monarchy in Rome by Lucius Junius Brutus. Foundation of the Roman Republic; Roman
domination of Latium begins.

508 BC--The city of Rome is attacked, but not captured, by King Lars Porsenna of
Clusium. Porsenna is the head of a loose confederation of Etruscan city states and is
trying to restore Etruscan rule in Rome.

507 BC--Treaty between Carthage and Rome.

506 BC - A planned invasion of Rome by Tarquin the Proud and Lars Porsenna and an
army of Etruscans is defeated by the Latin League and Aristodemos of Cumae in a battle
at Aricia. Later that year, a Roman noble named Horatius Cocles stops another attempted
Etruscan invasion, when he bars the bridge into Rome. While he is defending the bridge,
his comrades chop it down to prevent the enemy crossing. Horatius swims, fully armored
across the Tiber to safety.

c. 500 BC--Etruscan expansion in northern Italy.

498 BC--Hippocrates and Theron seize control in Syracuse and attempt to throw the
Phoenicians off the western part of Sicily.

496 BC--Battle of Lake Regillus between the Romans and the Latins. The divine twins,
Castor and Pollux were supposedly seen at the battle fighting with the Romans. Also in
this year, the deposed King Tarquinius Superbus dies in Cumae, where he had been
granted refuge.

495-450 BC--Wars between Rome and various Umbrian (Volsci, Aequi, Hernici,
Sabines) and Oscan (Aurunci) hill tribes. These flare up intermittently for the next half
century, until the destruction of Rome itself.

495 BC--Battle of Aricia of the Romans against the Aurunci. Also in this year, the Roman
forces capture the town of Seussa Pometia. The Romans sign a military pact with the
Hernici.

494 BC--Verginius Tricostus Caeliomontanus is appointed Dictator of Rome, and
appoints M. Valerius as his Magister Equitum (master of the horse) after a battle against
the Italian Volscians. A bloody battle occurs between the Romans and the Volscians at
Velitrae. First Secession of the Plebs in Rome; creation of the tribunes of the plebs, two
of whom are elected annually.

493 BC--A treaty known as the Foedus Cassianum is signed by Rome and the Latins in
order to protect themselves against incursions from mountain tribes such as the Aurunci,
Volsci, Aequi, and Hernici. The Roman general Gnaeus Marcius captures the Volscian
town of Corioli and is thus given, by decree of the senate, the surname Coriolanus. Also
in that year, the Volsci are defeated in a battle at Antium.

491 BC--The famous Roman general Coriolanus is exiled for threatening to raise grain
prices during a famine. He is sent to the Volsci but switches sides, and at the head of a
Volscian army, captures the Roman cities of Circeii, Satricum, Longula, Polsuca, Corioli,
Lavinium, Corbio, Vitellia, Trebium, Labici and Pedum. Just before he is about to invade
Rome, he is turned back by a plea from his mother. Later that year, the temple of Fortuna
Muliebris is built, to comemerate the memories and actions of the women who stopped
Coriolanus.

490 BC--The Athenian Greek forces under Miltiades defeat the invading Persian force
sent by King Darius of Persia at the battle of Marathon.

487 BC--The army of the Hernici (Italic hill tribe) is defeated by the Romans.

482-474 BC--Intermittent wars between Rome and the Etruscan city of Veii occur in this
period.

480 BC--Invasion of Greece by the forces of King Xerxes of Persia. The 'Spartan Last
Stand' occurs under Leonidas at Thermopylae. The Spartans are eventually defeated after
being betrayed by a traitor, Ephialtes. Later that year, the Greek forces under the general
Themistocles defeat the Persian navy under King Xerxes at the battle of Salamis.
Meanwhile, Carthage allies with Persia against the Greeks, but meets defeat in Sicily at
the Battle of Himera. Revolution in Carthage overthrows the kings of the Magonid
Dynasty and establishes the Court of 104 Magistrates. Carthaginian Republic begins.

479 BC--The battle of the Cremera occurs, when the Romans attack and defeat a Veiian
army.

479-450 BC--Re-buffed in Sicily, Carthage focuses on Africa, conquering most of what is
now Tunisia. Colonies in North Africa founded or strengthened. Mago's expedition
crosses the Sahara.

474 BC--An army of Etruscans is defeated near the town of Cumae by Hiero of Syracuse.
This is the first contact of any kind with Syracuse by the Romans. Rome begins to make
common cause with the Greek colonies on the southern Italian coast against the Etruscans
of central Italy. Later that year, a peace agreement between Veii and Rome is signed. It is
a shaky peace at best.

471 BC--Second secession of the plebs in Rome. The plebeian assembly is made into a
tribal affair, in that the tribes of Rome are asked to vote to pass plebiscites.

462 BC--A tribune of the plebs, G. Terentilius Harsa, begins to agitate for the
establishment of a committee to write down the laws of Rome. Dissatisfied plebeians in
Rome begin to riot.

458 BC--A Roman general L. Minucius is defeated by the Aequi at Mt. Algidus, but the
army is rescued from complete annihilation by L. Quinctius Cincinnatus, who left his
plow to become dictator. He ruled for 16 days, then retired back to his farm.

456 BC--Third secession of the plebs in Rome. The plebeians of Rome are granted land
to live upon.

451 BC--The Code of the Twelve Tables is published in Rome. The number of the
tribunes of the plebs is raised to ten.

450-448 BC--The War of Volumnius. In 450 BC, King Volumnius of Veii forms a league
of Etruscan city-states which concludes a treaty of alliance with Carthage against Rome
and the Greeks. Carthage lands an army at the mouth of the Tiber which invests Rome
from the south, while the Etruscans, lead by King Volumnius, attack Rome from the
north. Rome appeals to the Greeks of Cumae and Syracuse for aid, but the Greeks arrive
too late. The Roman army is defeated, and Rome itself is captured. Volumnius orders
the town razed to the ground, and the population is sold into slavery. Rome ceases to
exist, and the other towns of Latium accept Etruscan Kings and join the Etruscan League.
In 449 BC, the combined Carthaginian and Etruscan armies place Cumae under a six
month siege. However, the combined Carthaginian and Etruscan fleets are defeated by
the fleets of Cumae and Syracuse, and the Carthaginian army is cut off from it’s source of
reinforcement and supply, forcing the abandonment of the siege. Carthage sues for peace
shortly afterward, leaving King Volumnius and the Etruscan League to face the Greeks
alone. The war continues in 448 BC with several inconclusive battles. Finally, toward the
end of the year, King Volumnius and the Etruscan League conclude a treaty of peace with
Cumae and Syracuse, ending the war.

[Bulgaroktonos]

Very creative timeline. It will be very interesting to see the ramifications of the Syracusan victory over the Carthaginians at sea. Will Syracuse become a regional power at the head of a Sicilian Greek League?

[Historico]

Intersting start for your timeline robert, are you going to do any maps for this tl?

[Grey Wolf]

One could take a determinist view and say that if Rome does not rise triumphant somneone will else instead

Ands then the race is on for whom instead

probably by peeps who csan rtype bette rhtan me when drunk

Grey Wolf

[Derek Jackson]

How powerful might Carthage have become?

How far might it have spread?

Which would have been worse for say and Ancient Brit to be controlled by Rome or Carthage?

[Croesus]

How powerful might Carthage have become?

How far might it have spread?

Which would have been worse for say and Ancient Brit to be controlled by Rome or Carthage?

Given a TTL Barcid-style domination/colonization of Spain and, more importantly, time to put down much deeper roots than OTL, Carthage may have become quite powerful indeed. Whether its oligarchic/suffetic governance instutions are flexible enough survive an Imperium-scale expansion that retains a centralized power base is an important question that must be addressed. Aristotle felt that Carthage was able to avoid the "the evils of oligarchy by enriching one portion of the people after another by sending them to their colonies. This is their panacea and the means by which they give stability to the state."

There is IMO a potential situation for a third Phoenician powerbase to develop at Gadir. A Barcid style expansion of Carthaginian power may wash over Spain, lead to internal strain which results in a re-assertion of their governance model (and the usual grisly ends for the losers) and Gadir steps in to pick up the pieces. Of course the same might be suggested for Carthago Nova. A sundering of Phoenician Africa/Iberia however may still work to this AH's advantage by giving two smaller, fitter states rather than a large, creaking one that would likely suffer the same fate as the other large monolithic states, given that it would have great difficulty answering the challenges of imperium.

I feel that the conditions are there for an explosion of colonies spanning from the navigable portions of West Africa through Iberia and thence into the Celtic Atlantic arc. The Phoenician colonial model was fairly efficient and Carthaginian foreign policy was heavily based on sewing up access to the Atlantic. Their capacity to control large hinterlands through interconnected networks of trade oriented coastal cities was effective and avoided the strains imposed by a policy of physical domination and control.

Croesus

[Historico]

Robert, what happend to The Samnites in the last segments

[Anthony Appleyard]

If this time line's events are going to get into Black Africa, remember that horses and camels cannot be used in tsetse fly country because of the "nagana pest" trypanosome disease that the tsetse fly carries.

[robertp6165]

If this time line's events are going to get into Black Africa, remember that horses and camels cannot be used in tsetse fly country because of the "nagana pest" trypanosome disease that the tsetse fly carries.

This is not actually true. Horses and camels used in sub-Saharan Africa would suffer a high mortality from tsetse fly-borne disease, but not enough to make them useless in that region. The British and other colonial powers used such animals there in OTL.

[Historico]

can't wait for the next installment.

[robertp6165]

can't wait for the next installment.

Well, it will probably be a while...the next thing to be updated will be the Hittite timeline, then I will probably update THE BLACK AND THE GRAY again, and then this one.

And, as I said on the Hittite thread, I am taking things at a nice and leisurely pace, so it won't do anybody much good for you to keep "bumping" the thread. :)

[robertp6165]

Here is a revision of the first segment of the timeline (down to 450 BC) along with a new segment bringing it down to 300 BC. ROME DESTROYED IN 450 B.C. Sorry...no maps at this time, but I will probably make some and post them in the future.

c. 900 BC--Etruscans arrive in Italy, probably from Asia Minor. Over the next two
centuries they establish themselves as a ruling caste over local Villanovan villages in the
northern part of Italy, which begin to grow into city states under Etruscan rule.

814 BC--Carthage founded by Elissa (Dido), sister of the King of Tyre.

800? BC--First Phoenician presence on Sardinia.

c. 800 BC--The Greek version of the Phoenician alphabet is first used, and the earliest
iron age societies...proto-Celtic peoples...develop in Germany and Austria.

c. 800 BC onward--Greece is gradually emerging from the Dark Ages following the fall
of the Mycenaean civilization. An increase in trade and the establishment of
governmental defense fortifications allows for the emergence of Greek city-states (the
Polis) from tribal communities. These grow up around marketplaces and include cities
such as Athens, Thebes, Sparta, Corinth and Megara on the Greek mainland. For the most
part, the Greek city-states are similar in their political evolution, with the exception of
Sparta's elite dictatorship. Most begin their political histories as monarchies, evolve to
oligarchies, are overthrown during the age of the tyrants (c. 650-500 BC) and eventually
establish democracies in the sixth and fifth centuries. Of the Greek city-states, Athens
and Sparta will be the two most important.

770 BC--Founding of Gadir, gateway to Spanish silver.

760 BC - Founding of the city of Cumae as a Greek trading station by Euboean colonists.

753 BC--Traditional date for the founding of Rome (legendary) by Romulus and Remus.
After killing his brother, Romulus reigns as the first Roman king. Rape of the Sabines at
Rome.

750-500 BC--Heavy Greek colonization of Sicily, Southern Italy, Southern Provence,
Andalusia and Cyrenaica, encircling Carthaginian and Etruscan territory.

c. 750 BC--Etruscan voyages towards southern Tyrrhenian Sea and start of Etruscan
'thalassocracy.' Etruscan sea power and merchant trading begins to make itself felt all
over the western Mediterranean. Also at this time, Euboean Greeks found Naxos and
Megarian Greeks found Megara Hyblaea in Sicily.

c. 750-650 BC--Hoplite phalanx adopted by cities of Greece. Previously fighting was
carried out by a relatively few warriors with a shield, sword and spear with no armor and
were not organized in a phalanx. Hoplites had defensive armor and fought in close
formation, phalanx, a series of rows. Later on, the phalanx will be adopted by the
Romans and Etruscans as a result of contact with the Greeks.

c. 735-716 BC--First Messenian War. Sparta conquers the neighboring state of Messenia.
The population of Messenia is enslaved and becomes the “helot” class in Spartan society.

733 BC--Syracuse founded by Corinthian Greeks in Sicily.

730 BC - Date of founding of the city of Rhegium by Greeks from Chalcis.

716 BC--Romulus, the legendary founder and first King of Rome, dies. Numa Pompilius
becomes king of Rome.

c. 710 BC--Achaean Greeks found Sybaris and Croton, Laconians (Spartans) found
Tarentum, all in southern Italy. Also at about this time, the Etruscans adopt the Euboean
Greek alphabet.

c. 700 BC--Etruscan city states unite in a loose confederation which begins to dominate
northern and central Italy.

c. 700-670 BC--Rhodian Greeks and Cretans found Gela, Locrian Greeks found Locri
and Epizephyrii, Greeks from Colophon found Siris, all towns in Sicily and southern
Italy.

673 BC--Death of Numa Pompilius, King of Rome. Tullius Hostilius becomes king of
Rome. During his reign, he builds the Curia Hostilia, the Senate House.

654 BC--Carthage founds colony in the Balearic Islands at Ibiza.

642 BC--Roman King Tullius Hostilius dies. King Ancus Marcius succeeds him.

c. 615 BC--King Ancus Marcius dies in Rome. Shortly afterward, Rome is occupied by
the Etruscans, possibly as the result of an invasion. From this point, for the next 100
years, Etruscan Kings will rule in Rome, beginning with the rule of Tarquinius Priscus.

600 BC--Carthage fails to prevent the Phocaean Greek colony at Massilia (Marseilles), on
the south coast of what is now France. The Greeks of Cumae (on the coast south of
Rome) found the city of Neapolis (modern Naples) on the coast to the south of Cumae.
Also in this year, Rome conquers the city of Alba Longa, marking the beginning of it’s
expansion at the expense of it’s Latin neighbors.

580 BC--First attempt by Greeks to drive Phoenicians out of Sicily. Also at this time, the
Roman Forum is established during the rule of Tarquinius Priscus.

579 BC--Death of Tarquinius Priscus, Etruscan King of Rome, who is axed in the head by
two farmers. He is succeeded by Servius Tullius.

574 BC--Tyre falls to Nebuchadnezzar. Carthage on its own more than ever.

550 BC--Carthage allies with the Etruscans against the Greeks. Also in this year, a
Carthaginian force led by Malchus defeats the Greeks in Sicily, but is vanquished in
Sardinia. Malchus is banished, marches on Carthage, but is caught and executed.

550? BC--Carthaginian colonies formed along coast of Africa, Algeria, Hadrumetum,
Leptis.

540-535 BC--Etruscan-Carthaginian coalition against Phocaeans of Corsica. Naval battle
of the Sardinian Sea is a defeat for the Greeks. As a result, the Phocaean colony in
Corsica is destroyed, the Etruscans establish control of Corsica, and Carthage takes first
steps towards conquest of Sardinia.

539 BC--Asian Phoenicia falls to Cyrus the Great of Persia.

535 BC--Death of the second Etruscan King of Rome, Servius Tullius. He is succeeded
by King Lucius Tarquinius Superbus (“Tarquin the Proud”).

c. 530 BC--Etruscan power in central Italy at its height.

524 BC--Battle of Cumae; Greeks halt Etruscan expansion to the south.

509 BC--Overthrow of the Etruscan king Tarquin the Proud and destruction of the
monarchy in Rome by Lucius Junius Brutus. Foundation of the Roman Republic; Roman
domination of Latium begins.

508 BC--The city of Rome is attacked, but not captured, by King Lars Porsenna of
Clusium. Porsenna is the head of a loose confederation of Etruscan city states and is
trying to restore Etruscan rule in Rome.

507 BC--Treaty between Carthage and Rome.

506 BC - A planned invasion of Rome by Tarquin the Proud and Lars Porsenna and an
army of Etruscans is defeated by the Latin League and Aristodemos of Cumae in a battle
at Aricia. Later that year, a Roman noble named Horatius Cocles stops another attempted
Etruscan invasion, when he bars the bridge into Rome. While he is defending the bridge,
his comrades chop it down to prevent the enemy crossing. Horatius swims, fully armored
across the Tiber to safety.

505 BC--Cleisthenes founds democracy in Athens.

c. 500 BC--Etruscan expansion in northern Italy. Celtic tribes settle in Britain.

498 BC--Hippocrates and Theron seize control in Syracuse and attempt to throw the
Phoenicians off the western part of Sicily.

496 BC--Battle of Lake Regillus between the Romans and the Latins. The divine twins,
Castor and Pollux were supposedly seen at the battle fighting with the Romans. Also in
this year, the deposed King Tarquinius Superbus dies in Cumae, where he had been
granted refuge.

495-450 BC--Wars between Rome and various Umbrian (Volsci, Aequi, Hernici,
Sabines) and Oscan (Aurunci) hill tribes. These flare up intermittently for the next half
century, until the destruction of Rome itself.

495 BC--Battle of Aricia of the Romans against the Aurunci. Also in this year, the Roman
forces capture the town of Seussa Pometia. The Romans sign a military pact with the
Hernici.

494 BC--Verginius Tricostus Caeliomontanus is appointed Dictator of Rome, and
appoints M. Valerius as his Magister Equitum (master of the horse) after a battle against
the Italian Volscians. A bloody battle occurs between the Romans and the Volscians at
Velitrae. First Secession of the Plebs in Rome; creation of the tribunes of the plebs, two
of whom are elected annually.

493 BC--A treaty known as the Foedus Cassianum is signed by Rome and the Latins in
order to protect themselves against incursions from mountain tribes such as the Aurunci,
Volsci, Aequi, and Hernici. The Roman general Gnaeus Marcius captures the Volscian
town of Corioli and is thus given, by decree of the senate, the surname Coriolanus. Also
in that year, the Volsci are defeated in a battle at Antium.

491 BC--The famous Roman general Coriolanus is exiled for threatening to raise grain
prices during a famine. He is sent to the Volsci but switches sides, and at the head of a
Volscian army, captures the Roman cities of Circeii, Satricum, Longula, Polsuca, Corioli,
Lavinium, Corbio, Vitellia, Trebium, Labici and Pedum. Just before he is about to invade
Rome, he is turned back by a plea from his mother. Later that year, the temple of Fortuna
Muliebris is built, to comemerate the memories and actions of the women who stopped
Coriolanus.

490 BC--The Athenian Greek forces under Miltiades defeat the invading Persian force
sent by King Darius of Persia at the battle of Marathon.

487 BC--The army of the Hernici (Italic hill tribe) is defeated by the Romans.

482-474 BC--Intermittent wars between Rome and the Etruscan city of Veii occur in this
period.

481 BC--Both Athens and Sparta join the Hellenic League against Persia

480 BC--Invasion of Greece by the forces of King Xerxes of Persia. The 'Spartan Last
Stand' occurs under Leonidas at Thermopylae. The Spartans are eventually defeated after
being betrayed by a traitor, Ephialtes. Later that year, the Greek forces under the general
Themistocles defeat the Persian navy under King Xerxes at the battle of Salamis.
Meanwhile, Carthage allies with Persia against the Greeks, but meets defeat in Sicily at
the Battle of Himera. Revolution in Carthage overthrows the kings of the Magonid
Dynasty and establishes the Court of 104 Magistrates. Carthaginian Republic begins.

479 BC--The battle of the Cremera occurs, when the Romans attack and defeat a Veiian
army. The battle of Platea takes place in which the Persian army in Greece is decisively
defeated.

479-450 BC--Re-buffed in Sicily, Carthage focuses on Africa, conquering most of what is
now Tunisia. Colonies in North Africa founded or strengthened. Mago's expedition
crosses the Sahara.

478 BC--The Hellenic League conquers Cyprus and Byzantium from the Persians.

477 BC--The League of Delos is formed, with Athens in the leadership position. Shortly
afterward, Sparta responds by forming the Peloponnesian League with other cities
opposed to Athens. The Delian League begins as a voluntary association of cities for the
purpose of common defense against Persia, but over time, power accrues to Athens at the
expense of the other members, and it becomes a de facto “Athenian Empire.”

474 BC--An army of Etruscans is defeated near the town of Cumae by Hiero of Syracuse.
This is the first contact of any kind with Syracuse by the Romans. Rome begins to make
common cause with the Greek colonies on the southern Italian coast against the Etruscans
of central Italy. Later that year, a peace agreement between Veii and Rome is signed. It is
a shaky peace at best.

471 BC--Second secession of the plebs in Rome. The plebeian assembly is made into a
tribal affair, in that the tribes of Rome are asked to vote to pass plebiscites.

462 BC--A tribune of the plebs, G. Terentilius Harsa, begins to agitate for the
establishment of a committee to write down the laws of Rome. Dissatisfied plebeians in
Rome begin to riot.

461 BC: Pericles promotes the ideals of democracy and peace. First Peloponnesian War
between Athenians and Spartans.

458 BC--A Roman general L. Minucius is defeated by the Aequi at Mt. Algidus, but the
army is rescued from complete annihilation by L. Quinctius Cincinnatus, who left his
plow to become dictator. He ruled for 16 days, then retired back to his farm.

456 BC--Third secession of the plebs in Rome. The plebeians of Rome are granted land
to live upon.

454 BC--Pericles of Athens has the treasury of the Delian League removed to Athens (it
had originally been held on the island of Delos). This is generally held to mark the point
at which the League of Delos became a de facto, if not de jure, Athenian Empire.

451 BC--The Code of the Twelve Tables is published in Rome. The number of the
tribunes of the plebs is raised to ten. Sparta and Athens sign the Five Year Peace ending
the First Peloponnesian War.

c. 450 BC--The first bank is founded in Athens by Antisthenes and Archestratos.
Herodotus writes the first non-theological history. Hippocrates lays the foundations of
modern Medicine. The sculptor Pheidias completes the great statue of Zeus at Olympia,
which will be accounted one of the seven wonders of the world.

450-448 BC--The War of the League of Volumnius. In 450 BC, King Volumnius of Veii
forms a league of Etruscan city-states located south of the Po River (with the exception of
Caere, which is a Roman ally) which concludes a treaty of alliance with Carthage against
Rome and the Greeks. Carthage lands an army at the mouth of the Tiber which invests
Rome from the south, while the Etruscans, lead by King Volumnius, attack Rome from
the north. Rome appeals to the Greeks of Cumae and Syracuse for aid, but the Greeks
arrive too late. The Roman army is defeated, and Rome itself is captured. Volumnius
orders the town razed to the ground, and the population is sold into slavery. Rome ceases
to exist, and the other towns of Latium are forced to accept Etruscan Kings. In 449 BC,
the combined Carthaginian and Etruscan armies place Cumae under a six month siege.
However, the combined Carthaginian and Etruscan fleets are defeated by the fleets of
Cumae and Syracuse, and the Carthaginian army is cut off from it’s source of
reinforcement and supply, forcing the abandonment of the siege. Carthage sues for peace
shortly afterward, leaving the League of Volumnius to face the Greeks alone. The war
continues in 448 BC with several inconclusive battles. Finally, toward the end of the year,
King Volumnius and the League conclude a treaty of peace with Cumae and Syracuse,
ending the war.

449 BC--The Delian League signs a peace treaty with Persia, ending the Persian Wars.

446-444 BC--The League of Volumnius lay siege to the city of Caere, an Etruscan city
which has refused to join the League and which sided with Rome and the Greeks during
the recent war. Caere holds out for two years, but finally falls to the besiegers. As
punishment for siding with the Greeks against other Etruscans, the League decrees that all
the males in the city be killed and the women and children sold into slavery. Caere is
razed to the ground.

446 BC--Sparta and Athens sign a treaty called The Thirty Year Peace. Unfortunately, it
won’t last that long.

442 BC--King Volumnius has been looking at the arrangements which Rome, prior to it’s
destruction, was making with it’s Latin allies, especially the Foedus Cassianum, and
recognizes that a similar arrangement between the Etruscan cities would have great
benefits. Volumnius meets with the leaders of the other Etruscan cities at Clusium. In a
speech to the assembled Kings, Volumnius notes that throughout Etruscan history, the
Etruscan cities have joined together in a religious league for joint worship of the common
Etruscan gods. They have also, from time to time, joined together in military alliance,
such as the recent League of Volumnius. But they have, too commonly, been disunited
when faced by external threats. He cites the recent example of Caere, and argues that the
time for such divisiveness has come to an end. Volumnius then proposes nothing less
than a formal political union of the Etruscan cities, based on the principles of the Roman
Foedus Cassianum. According to this proposal, the Etruscan cities would pledge to keep
perpetual peace among themselves, aid each other in the case of attack, prevent the other's
enemies from crossing their own territory, divide the spoils of joint campaigns equally,
and provide mechanisms for resolving disputes between the citizens of different
communities. Volumnius proposes that the legislative and executive power of this union,
to be called the Etruscan League, be invested in a Great Council, to consist of all the
kings of the various Etruscan cities, or representatives nominated by those kings. The
Council would have power to legislate only on matters which pertain to all the cities of
the League...local government would be left in the hands of the local Kings...and to
arbitrate in disputes between member cities. No measure would be passed without a
majority vote of this Council. To ensure that no member state could be coerced by the
League, the Council would be forbidden to declare war on any Etruscan city which is a
member state of the League, with two exceptions...if any member state refuses to
participate in a war declared by the League Council, or if any member state declares war
on any other member state without the approval of the League Council. In those cases
only, the Council may declare that member state an enemy, and the League will deal with
it as it did Caere. Volumnius also argues that the Latin cities formerly allied to Rome,
which since the War of Volumnius have been ruled by Etruscan Dynasties, be also
allowed to join this League, or, if they choose, remain independent of it. After much
often acrimonious debate, most of the Etruscan Kings accept Volumnius’s proposal, but
with one major amendment...any Latin cities which join the League at a later date will not
have voting rights on the Great Council, but may send non-voting delegates to participate
in debate during the decision-making process. The rulers of the cities of Volsinii,
Populonia, and Felsina all decline to join the League, but the remaining Etruscan cities
south of the Po River do join.

440-430 BC--Beginning of Samnite expansion into Campania. The Etruscan settlement
at Capua is threatened.

440-431 BC--The Umbrian hill tribes of the Aequi and the Volsci once again begin
encroaching on the fertile plain of Latium. The Latin cities appeal to the Etruscan League
for aid, which is given. The Aequi and Volsci are decisively defeated in 431 BC by a
combined Latin and Etruscan army at the Battle of the Algidus Pass. In the aftermath of
this victory, most of the Latin cities apply for membership in the Etruscan League.
Fighting with the Aequi and Volsci will continue sporadically until the end of the century,
but they will never again be a serious threat to the Etruscans or their Latin allies.

438 BC--The Parthenon is inaugurated in Athens

431 BC--Beginning of the Peloponnesian Wars in Greece.

429 BC--Plague in Athens. Pericles, the great leader of Athens, perishes. Plato born,
possibly in Athens.

425 BC--Phoenician explorer Himilco travels from Carthage to Brittany.

423 BC--The Samnites attack Capua. Capua, which is not a member of the Etruscan
League, calls on the League for assistance, which is given. The Samnites are severely
defeated and driven back into the mountains. Nevertheless the Etruscans are impressed by
Samnite fighting prowess, and they begin to bargain for an alliance with these hardy
hillmen. Capua formally joins the Etruscan League.

420 BC--The Etruscan League, in alliance with the Samnites, attacks Cumae. The Greeks
are decisively defeated and Cumae is captured and destroyed. The lands formerly held by
Cumae are given to the Samnites as a reward for their service to the League.

419 BC--The Etruscan League, in alliance with the Samnites, forces the surrender of the
Greek colony at Neapolis. All of Campania is now in the hands of the Etruscan/Samnite
alliance.

418 BC--Volsinii and Populonia join the Etruscan League.

415-413 BC--Athenian Expedition against Syracuse. Athens finds Syracusan resistance
to be more than she bargained for, and sends embassies to the Etruscan League and to
Carthage seek help. While Carthage does not respond, the Etruscan League, seeing a way
to eliminate an old enemy and rival, allies with Athens, and a large force of troops and
warships is sent. These prove decisive. Even though Syracuse receives a reinforcement
from Sparta, it is not enough to break the Athenian siege, and Syracuse falls in 413 BC.
The Athenians, with Etruscan support, decide to sell the entire population of Syracuse
into slavery, sack the city, and raze it to the ground. The Athenians and Etruscans soon
establish control over all the other Greek cities on the island, which are forced to join the
Delian League.

413-408 BC--Bolstered by the plunder from Syracuse and the resources and manpower of
Sicily, Athens goes on to defeat Sparta and it’s allies in the Peloponnesian War. Sparta
itself is destroyed in 408 BC, and the other cities of the Peloponnesian League are forced
to join the Delian League under the leadership of Athens. For the first time in history,
almost all of Greece is united under a single banner...that of Athens.

412 BC--The Samnites in Campania break their alliance with the Etruscans and attack
Capua again in an effort to take all of Campania for themselves. The Etruscan League
decisively defeats them...so much so that the Samnites will be crippled for some time to
come. The Samnites sign a new treaty of alliance with the Etruscan League.

410 BC--King Darius II of Persia allies with Sparta against Athens. Although the
infusion of Persian gold helps Sparta, it is not enough, and Sparta still goes down to
defeat. Athens will not forget this treachery. Also at this time, Phoenicians in Spain join
with the native Celtiberians to secede from Carthage, denying the Carthaginian state
important silver and copper revenues. The overland tin trade cut off, and as a result,
Carthage begins looking for a sea route to acquire tin. Approximate time of Himilco's
expeditions in the Atlantic and Hanno's expeditions to Morocco and Senegal. As a result
of Himilco’s voyages, Carthage soon begins importing tin directly from Britain.

407-398 BC--The War of Revenge on Persia: At the urging of Athens, and citing Persia’s
recent treachery during the Peloponnesian War, the Delian League declares war on Persia.
The League declares the war to be a holy war of revenge, and common hatred of Persia
among the Greeks encourages all the polei to contribute troops and ships for the
expedition. At this same time, a rebellion has broken out in Egypt, lead by a native
Egyptian prince named Amonirdisu, and it is decided to land in Egypt to support this
rebellion. From there, the Greek army can advance into the Levant, and thence into the
heart of the Persian Empire.

It takes over a year to prepare the expedition, but the Greek force finally sets sail under
the command of the famous general Alcibiades (with a capable young man named
Xenophon as second-in-command) in 406 BC. The Greeks lands at Naukratis, in the
Nile Delta, in late 406 BC, link up with the Egyptians, and begin to battle the Persian
garrisons. The Persians put up surprisingly strong resistance, and Egypt is not freed until
early 404 BC. Amonirdisu is crowned Pharaoh of Egypt, and makes a formal alliance
with the Delian League.

In late 404 BC, King Darius II of Persia dies, and is succeeded by Artaxerxes II.
Artaxerxes offers to make amends for his father’s treachery against Athens by paying
10,000 talents of gold, if the Greeks will return home and cease interfering in Persia’s
internal affairs. Alcibiades takes this offer to the Assembly in Athens. There are many
in the Assembly who argue that honour has been satisfied, and that the expedition should
be withdrawn...especially since word has now come of Carthaginian aggression against
Delian League cities in Sicily. Acibiades, however, argues that “10,000 talents is a mere
trifle to the Persian King. Let us have our revenge, and have ALL that he owns!” His
argument is persuasive, and the Assembly votes to reject the Persian offer.

In 403 BC, with Alcibiades again in command, the combined Greek and Egyptian armies
move north into Palestine, while the Greek and Egyptian fleets land a marine
expeditionary force at Tyre. This marks the beginning of a campaign which will see the
Greek forces brush aside one Persian army after another as they advance deeper into the
Persian Empire. As they go they liberate the subject peoples of the empire, many of them
rallying to the Greek standard. Finally, in 400 BC, a decisive battle is fought near the
ruins of Nineveh in northern Mesopotamia. King Artaxerxes II himself is killed in battle,
and his army is shattered by the steady Greek phalanx. The Persian Empire effectively
collapses as uprisings against the local Persian satraps flare up throughout the empire.
The Greek army marches into Susa and then to Persepolis by the end of 399 BC. The
huge treasury of the Achaemenid Kings is captured at Susa, and the Greeks plunder the
opulent palaces of Persepolis before setting them on fire in retaliation for the burning of
Athens during the Persian Wars. By the end of 398 BC, the last remaining members of
the Achaemenid royal house are captured and executed. The Persian Empire is no more.

406-400 BC--The First Sicilian War. Hannibal Mago, grandson of Hamilcar, attempts to
conquer Sicily for Carthage, but in 405 BC he and hundreds of troops die in epidemic
outside fortified town of Acragas. He is replaced by his relative Himilco. As the Delian
League is currently fully engaged in it’s War of Revenge on Persia, it has no troops to
send for Sicily’s defense, and Athens appeals to the Etruscan League for aid. But the
Etruscan League, which only intervened in the Peloponnesian War in order to eliminate
the threat posed by Syracuse (which was a dangerous military rival and trade competitor),
has no desire to see Greek power in Sicily maintained. The League, therefore, while it
was willing to work with Athens earlier in order to eliminate the threat posed by
Syracuse, refuses to intervene in the current crisis. The Carthaginians reduce the Greek
towns of Sicily by siege, one by one, over the course of the next six years, and by the end
of 400 BC, Carthage is in control of the entire island.

404 BC--King Darius II of Persia dies, and is succeeded by Artaxerxes II.

402 BC--The Etruscan League renews it’s alliance with Carthage.

c. 400 BC--Celtic tribes begin to cross the Alps and assail the Etruscan cities located
north of the Po River. The cities north of the Po River are not formally members of the
Etruscan League, and they quickly fall to the onslaught of these fierce tribesmen.
Incursions south of the Po are beaten back by the military forces of the League, however.

399 AD--Pharoah Amonirdisu of Egypt dies. With him dies the Twenty-Eighth Dynasty.
The throne of Egypt is taken over by a prince from a royal house in the city of Mendes,
who reigns as Pharaoh Nefaarud I and ushers in the Twenty-Ninth Dynasty of Egypt.
Nefaarud and his successors will resume Egypt’s traditional interventionist policies in
Palestine. Nefaarud will also reorganize the Egyptian army on the Greek model. The
core of the army will be a Hoplite phalanx, supported by a force of foot archers and both
heavy and light cavalry.

398 AD onward--At the conclusion of the War of Revenge, Alcibiades and the other
Greek leaders realize that they cannot hope to hold onto the huge area formerly ruled by
Persia. The Greek army takes it’s plunder and returns home, leaving a power vacuum
which is quickly filled by resurgent native dynasties in Lydia, Babylonia and Egypt.
While the new dynasties in the major regional states are consolidating their rule, the
“small fry” also enjoy a brief interlude of independence. The city states of Phoenicia
re-assert their independence. And, in the tiny little state of Yehud, King Zadok...first
king of the House of David to rule over the Jews in almost 200 years...rules from
Jerusalem. Meanwhile, the Iranian plateau dissolves into chaos as the powerful peoples of
the region splinter into several competing states...Media, Persia, Parthia and Bactria. The
Elamites have also re-asserted their independence, and maintain a small state centered
around Susa. None of these states has a clear military advantage over the others, and the
Iranian plateau will be beset by continuous warfare between these states for the remainder
of this century.

397 BC--Alcibiades returns to Athens. In the Assembly he is accused of treason for
having brought the Greek army home from Persia rather than trying to hold on to the
conquered territories. Supporters of Alcibiades riot against those who would seek to
banish him, and in the violence, Alcibiades himself is killed (stabbed from behind during
a melee in the Agora). Xenophon, who had served as second-in-command under
Alcibiades, escapes with his life, but is banished by the Assembly.

397 onward--Lacking a restraining influence, the Assembly of Athens begins to follow
more and more tyrannical policies toward other Delian League states. The Persian
Plunder is claimed by Athens as it’s just restitution for the burning of Athens in 480 BC,
and used to further beautify the city and build up an even more powerful military, which
is used primarily to keep the other member states of the Delian League in line.

395-390 BC--The Second Sicilian War. Athens launches an expedition to Sicily to
recover the Greek cities which were captured by Carthage while the mainland Greeks.
Carthage calls for aid from the Etruscan League, with which it has a treaty of alliance.
The Etruscans land an army to cooperate with the Carthaginians against the Greeks in
Sicily, and the combined Etruscan and Carthaginian fleets fight the Athenian fleet to a
standstill off the coast of the island. The Greek army suffers a major defeat in at Gela in
391 BC, and is forced to surrender the following year. This is a major disaster for Athens
from which it will not fully recover. Other Greek cities, which have been chafing under
Athenian domination, begin plotting rebellion.

395 BC--Pharaoh Nefaarud I of Egypt invades Palestine. This is more of a plundering
expedition than anything else, but while he is there, Nefaarud forces King Zadok of
Yehud into tributary status.

394 BC--In Lydia, a new dynasty has assumed the throne last held by Croesus before the
Persian conquest. The new king, who has taken the royal name of Gyges II, soon begins
to make aggressive moves toward other Anatolian states. By the end of his reign, he will
have unified most of Anatolia under his rule, with the exception of the Greek cities along
the coast, which he wisely leaves alone for fear of incurring the wrath of Athens.

393 BC--Pharaoh Nefaarud I of Egypt dies, and is succeeded by Psammuthes. However,
Psammuthes dies later that same year, and is succeeded by Hakor.

390 BC--In Babylonia, a new dynasty has taken power, founded by a Chaldean chieftain
who takes the royal name of Nebuchadnezzar III.

390-385 BC--Pharaoh Hakor of Egypt leads yearly expeditions north into Palestine and
Syria. He brings the Phoenician and Aramaean city states of Lebanon and Syria under
Egyptian domination, for a time, at least.

c. 398 BC--Since the end of the War of Revenge, Iran has splintered into several
competing states...Media, Persia, Parthia and Bactria. The Elamites have also re-asserted
their independence, and maintain a small state centered around Susa. None of these states
has a clear military advantage over the others, and the Iranian plateau is beset by
continuous warfare between these states. This situation will continue for some time.

388-381 BC--King Zadok of Yehud makes war on the surrounding peoples in Palestine
(Ammonites, Moabites, Samaritans, Edomites, Philistines). The Jewish army, which
Zadok has organized on the Greek model like that of his Egyptian overlords, outclasses
anything fielded by his neighbors, and by 381 BC, all of Palestine is subject to Zadok’s
rule. His overlord, the Pharaoh, is pleased, as this brings all of Palestine within the
Egyptian sphere of influence as well.

389-385 BC--Nebuchadnezzar III of Babylon moves into northern Mesopotamia,
conquering the old lands of Assyria. He also makes forays across the Euphrates into
Syria, but is defeated and turned back by the Egyptians.

386 BC--The Gallic tribes of the Senones and the Boii cross the Po River and attack the
Etruscan city of Felsina, which is not a member of the Etruscan League. Felsina appeals
to the League for aid, which is granted. The Etruscan League army meets the Gauls at the
River Allia, and defeats them. The Gauls are driven back north of the Po River.
However, this will not be the last incursion of the Gauls into Etruscan League
territory...fighting with the Gauls will consume the resources of the Etruscan League for
much of the remainder of the century. Felsina joins the Etruscan League.

382-370 BC--Period of warfare between Egypt and Babylon. Beginning in 382 BC, King
Nebuchadnezzar III of Babylon begins making yearly campaigns in Syria, where he tries
to push out the Egyptians. Although there is much bloody fighting, neither side gains a
clear advantage. Finally, in 370 BC, a treaty is signed recognizing the border between
Egypt and Babylon at the Euphrates. The forces of Kings Zadok and Achim of Yehud
participate in this struggle on the side of the Egyptians.

381-371 BC--The Theban War. In the wake of the Athenian disaster in Sicily, several
Greek states, foremost among which are Thebes and Corinth, form an anti-Athenian
alliance and declare their secession from the Delian League. The Thebans are very much
the ringleaders, and the war comes to be named after them. It turns out to be a long and
brutal struggle which will last for ten years, but Thebes benefits from the brilliant
leadership of Epaminondas, and in the end, the power of Athens is broken, and the Delian
League is dissolved. Greece is no longer united, and will soon attract the notice of an
up-and-coming people to the north...the Macedonians.

381 BC--King Zadok of Yehud dies, and is succeeded by his son, Achim.

380 BC--Pharaoh Hakor of Egypt dies in battle with the Babylonians outside of
Damascus. He is succeeded by his son, Nefaarud II. Nefaruud II is, however, quickly
overthrown by one of his generals, who takes the throne as Pharaoh Nekhtnebef I. Thus
begins the Thirtieth Dynasty of Egypt. Also in this year, Socrates dies of natural causes
in Athens.

375 BC--Plato writes THE REPUBLIC. King Gyges II of Lydia dies, and is succeeded by
Alyattes III.

373 BC--The Temple of Delphi is destroyed in an earthquake.

367 BC--Aristotle enters the Academy of Plato.

365 BC--Death of King Nebuchadnezzar III of Babylon. He is succeeded by
Marduk-apal-iddina III.

362 BC--Death of Pharaoh Nekhtnebef I of Egypt. He is succeeded by Djedhor.

360 BC--Death of Pharaoh Djedhor of Egypt. He is succeeded by Nahkthoreb. Death of
King Alyattes III of Lydia. He is succeeded by Myrsus II.

359 BC--Phillip II Temenid comes to the throne of Macedonia. Phillip had, as a youth,
been held hostage in Thebes and had observed the strategy of the great general
Epaminondas. Phillip is himself a militarily gifted man, and when he assumes the throne,
he makes radical changes to the organization and equipment of the Macedonian army. He
introduces the Macedonian Phalanx, lightly armored compared to Greek Hoplites but
armed with 15’ long pikes which are nearly twice as long as a Greek infantry spear.
Phillip trains his army to fight using combined-arms tactics where the Phalanx is used to
pin the enemy in place while light troops probe for a weak point in the enemy line. Once
a weak point is found, the cavalry then makes a decisive charge. This new army will be
devastating to all who encounter it.

358 BC--Death of King Achim of Yehud. He is succeeded by Eliud. King Eliud
continues the pro-Egyptian policies of his predecessors, and rules happily as an Egyptian
pawn throughout his reign.

350-332 BC--Period of conflict between the Etruscan League and the Samnites over
control of Campania. Neither side is able to decisively defeat the other, and the situation
ends up with an agreement recognizing the status quo ante bellum in 332 BC.

344 BC--Philip II of Macedonia conquers Thessaly, Illyria, Epirus.

342 BC--Aristotle tutors Alexander III Temenid of Macedonia, son and heir of King
Phillip II.

340 BC--Athens and Thebes put aside their differences to face the threat posed by Phillip
II.

338 BC--Philip II defeats Athens and Thebes at Chaeronea. Phillip forces most of the
mainland Greek cities into the League of Corinth, under his leadership. Death of King
Myrsus II of Lydia. He is succeeded by Croesus II. Croesus II will unwisely abandon the
policies of his predecessors and begin interfering with the Greek cities of the Anatolian
coast.

336 BC: Philip II of Macedonia is assassinated and is succeeded by his son Alexander III.
Death of King Marduk-apal-iddina II of Babylon. He is succeeded by Bel-Ibni II.

335-333 BC--Revolts flare up in several Greek cities after the death of Phillip II. The
new King Alexander puts these down mercilessly.

333 BC--Death of King Bel-Ibni II of Babylon. He is succeeded by Marduk-bel-Ikbi.
Also in this year, King Alexander III of Macedon receives an entreaty for aid from the
Greeks of the Ionian coast, which are under attack by the forces of the Lydian King,
Croesus II. He is not able to immediately come to their aid, as he is still putting down
rebellions at home.

333-331 BC--The Greek city of Taras, in southern Italy, is attacked by the Lucanians, the
Bruttii and the Samnites (native Italian peoples of the area) and calls for aid from King
Alexander Molossus of Epirus. Alexander Molossus is the uncle and strong ally of King
Alexander III of Macedonia, and is a skilled general in his own right. Alexander wins
several victories, but in the end is defeated and killed by the Lucanians (it doesn’t help his
cause that the Greeks of Taras, having decided that Alexander was planning to set himself
up as their ruler, switched sides and joined the Lucanians!). He is succeeded as King of
Epirus by Aeacides.

332-331BC--Macedonian Conquest of Lydia. In 332 BC, King Alexander III of Macedon
finally has ended all resistance to his rule at home, and he takes an army across the
Hellespont to the succor of the Greek cities of Anatolia, which are being oppressed by
King Croesus II of Lydia. Despite valiant resistance by the Lydians, Alexander succeeds
in conquering Lydia and its possessions in Anatolia within a little more than a year. King
Croesus is captured and executed, ending the Lydian dynasty. The Greek cities of
Anatolia are not formally annexed by Macedonia, but are forced to join the League of
Corinth.

331 BC--Death of Pharaoh Nahkthoreb of Egypt. He is succeeded by Nekhtnebef II.

c. 330 BC onward--The Etruscan League begins to establish relations with the Marsi,
Paeligni, Marrucini and Vestini (Oscan peoples related to the Samnites who live east of
the Apennine Mountains on the shores of the Adriatic Sea). By the end of the century,
these tribes will be allies of the Etruscan League.

330 BC--In the wake of the conquest of Lydia by King Alexander III of Macedonia,
Pharaoh Nekhtnebef II of Egypt and King Marduk-bel-Ikbi of Babylon both send envoys
to King Alexander, protesting their friendship. Alexander agrees to non-aggression
treaties with both of these powers, as he has another target in mind...Carthage.

329-318 BC--The War of Sicilian Liberation. In 329 BC, King Alexander III of
Macedonia calls an assembly of the leaders of the member cities of the League of
Corinth. At the meeting, he states his intention to embark on an expedition to liberate the
Greeks of Sicily from the “tyranny” of the Carthaginians. This project is greeted with
much enthusiasm by the representatives at the assembly, many of whom secretly hope
that Alexander’s army will meet the fate of that of Athens when it attempted a similar
project some years earlier. All the cities agree to provide funding for the project, and
several (but not most) also offer troops and ships. Alexander takes a year to prepare his
expedition, and sets sail in early 328 BC. He lands near the ruins of Syracuse in April
328, and his forces are soon engaged in combat with Carthaginian forces on the island.
Carthage calls on it’s ally, the Etruscan League, for assistance. But the Etruscans have
continuing problems with the Gauls to their north, and they have heard tales of
Alexander’s conquest of Lydia and his brutal suppression of the rebel Greek cities. And
besides...the Etruscans have intervened twice on Carthage’s behalf in Sicily, and have
received precious little in return. Indeed, Carthaginian control of Sicily has meant simply
that one major trade rival has been replaced by another. So the Etruscans decide to sit this
one out. Carthage has the better fleet, and the Carthaginian navy soon cuts Alexander’s
access to supplies and reinforcements from Macedonia, but the Greek cities of Sicily are
very much behind him, and his army is able to operate even so. Alexander is a brilliant
tactician, and his army inflicts defeat after defeat on the Carthaginian forces. Carthage is,
however, able to resupply and reinforce it’s troops on the island, so the war continues,
and drags on for no less than ten years. Finally, in 318 BC, Alexander’s army is defeated
outside the Carthaginian town of Lilybaeum by a new and brilliant Carthaginian general
named Hamilcar Hannonid. The Carthaginians suffer nearly as much as the Macedonians
do in this battle, and in the aftermath, Hamilcar offers a truce. Alexander meets with
Hamilcar, and a treaty is signed, ending the War. Sicily is divided along the Halcyus
River, with everything to the west belonging to Carthage and everything east going to
Macedon.

323 BC--Death of King Eliud of Yehud. He is succeeded by Eleazar. Eleazar is not
content to be an Egyptian catspaw, and begins plotting rebellion. He makes an alliance
with King Marduk-bel-Ikbi of Babylon.

320-317 BC--Pharaoh Nekhtnebef II of Egypt learns of the schemes of King Eleazar of
Yehud. He leads the Egyptian army northward to punish the upstart king. The Jewish
army is defeated in the Valley of Jezreel, and Nekhtnebef lays siege to Jerusalem. The
city falls after a three-year siege in 317 BC. The Egyptians sack the city, but do not
destroy it. Nekhtnebef decides to remove the House of David from the throne of Yehud,
and places an Egyptian governor in Jerusalem instead. King Eleazar is executed, his body
quartered, and the parts hung at the four main gates of the city.

318-308 BC--Civil War in Macedonia. Alexander III of Macedon returns home with the
survivors of his army from Sicily. Upon his return, he finds that in the ten years he has
been under blockade in Sicily, affairs at home have not gone well. A group of
Macedonian noblemen has conspired with King Aeacides of Epirus to depose him,
replacing him with his half-witted half-brother, Philip Arrhidaeus, who they can easily
control. These noblemen arrange to have Alexander assassinated shortly after his arrival
in Macedonia. But this simply opens the door to outright civil war, as generals loyal to
Alexander lead the veteran army returning from Sicily against the conspirators. The
Greek cities of the League of Corinth take the opportunity to rebel against Macedonian
control, and the entire Macedonian realm is soon the scene of bitter fighting. Fighting
goes on for ten years, and in the end, the Macedonian Empire falls apart. Antigonus
“One-Eye” ends up in control in Macedonia itself; Ptolemy and Seleucus end up with
realms in Anatolia; and Antipater sets himself up as Tyrant of Sicily. The Greek cities
regain their independence, and form the Achaean League for mutual defense against
Macedonia. Aeacides of Epirus is deposed, and Epirus is ruled by Antigonus of
Macedonia for several years.

317 BC onward--The Jews, having tasted freedom once again, or something
approximating freedom anyway, do not quietly accept the removal of their royal house
and the imposition of an Egyptian governor. Over the next few decades, rebellion will
simmer in the province. Egyptian officials soon find it safer not to leave their protected
palaces, and there is a steady attrition of Egyptian garrison troops from hit and run raids.
Of course, the Egyptians respond with brutal atrocities, which only serves to fan the
flames of rebellion more. But the Jews are simply too weak to expel the Egyptians, and
their resistance is in vain...at least for now.

310 BC onward--Antipater orders the rebuilding of Syracuse, recognizing it’s superb
location for trading and it’s strategic military value.

c. 310 BC onward--The Etruscan League reorganizes and re-equips its military in
response to the demands made by the ongoing campaigns against the Gauls in northern
Italy. The traditional hoplite phalanx is replaced with a more flexible formation,
organized in three lines instead of one. It has been found that a single line can sometimes
be broken by the fierce Gallic charge, but if there is a second line behind it, the situation,
more often than not, can be retrieved. The third line is a reserve force, to be deployed
wherever the line is in most danger of being breached. It has also been found that,
instead of equipping the heavy infantry with a single thrusting spear, it is better to give
them a couple of javelins in addition, as the javelins can help to break up the Gallic
charge prior to impact. The new formation is supported by light troops (archers, slingers,
and javelin men) and cavalry, and provides a flexible strike force.

304 BC--The Marsi, Paeligni, Marrucini and Vestini apply for membership in the
Etruscan League. Although they are not granted membership, treaties of alliance and joint
commerce are signed between the League and these peoples.

301 BC--Death of King Marduk-bel-Ikbi of Babylon. He is succeeded by Nabu-apal-usur
II.

[Historico]

great job on the revised installment, can't wait to see how things turn out.

[Tom_B]

Another interesting TL. Robert. Will wait until the next piece for more detailed comments.

[Historico]

I have a few questions.

1. Have the Carthaginans attempted any expeditions along the West coast of Africa? It would be intresting seeing the Carthaginan sailors encountering the Nok villages of the Niger River Valley.

2. Do Voluminus and his descendant's reign over the Estrucan Leauge or is it an strict republic?

[robertp6165]

I have a few questions.

1. Have the Carthaginans attempted any expeditions along the West coast of Africa? It would be intresting seeing the Carthaginan sailors encountering the Nok villages of the Niger River Valley.

They have done some expeditions down there, and they carry on some minor trade there, but there has been no major contact.

2. Do Voluminus and his descendant's reign over the Estrucan Leauge or is it an strict republic?

No, the descendants of King Volumnius do not reign over the Etruscan League. The Etruscan League is just that...it's a League of city states. The individual cities each are ruled by their own government...whether a king, a republic, a democracy, or whatever. The Great Council of the League is a body composed of the kings or chief magistrates of all the cities in the League. The descendants of King Volumnius do still rule in Veii, and as such take part in the Great Council, however. But they have no more power there than any other ruler.

[Historico]

So Robert, when is the next installmet due

[Historico]

Now with the Etruscan's dominating Italy, how would they assimilate all those different Itallian Cultures into their own? Is it possible we will see an
Third Babylonian Empire flowering many new ideas and Inventions?

After Carthage's Exhausting war with Macedon, I think they would most likely turn south and begin focusing their efforts into colonizing Africa? Is it possible we would see an srong Celtic State in the North Blocking off Etruscan Expension, or would they fall to them also? Egypt althought not as rich as they were in the New Kingdom could also become and strong Power and providing an strong enemy to Carthage in Africa? Is this Timeline on the Backburner or is it discontinued?

[robertp6165]

Is this Timeline on the Backburner or is it discontinued?

No, not discontinued. I just have been working on the others. Let's see...I have the Hittites, the Tawantinsuya, the Black Confederate timeline, and this. I get a lot more requests for updates of the others, so this one has kind of sat around. But I will come back to it...

[Historico]

Now with the Etruscan's dominating Italy, how would they assimilate all those different Itallian Cultures into their own? Is it possible we will see an Third Babylonian Empire flowering many new ideas and Inventions?

After Carthage's Exhausting war with Macedon, I think they would most likely turn south and begin focusing their efforts into colonizing Africa? Is it possible we would see an srong Celtic State in the North Blocking off Etruscan Expension, or would they fall to them also? Egypt althought not as rich as they were in the New Kingdom could also become and strong Power and providing an strong enemy to Carthage in Africa? Is this Timeline on the Backburner or is it discontinued?

Also is the Assyrian Revolt which took place in 350 BCE, in OTL Take place and are they able to reassert their Independce in this Timeline or remain under the Babylonian Crown? Is anybody going to answer my questions above? And Which Timeline are you going to update next?

[robertp6165]

Now with the Etruscan's dominating Italy, how would they assimilate all those different Itallian Cultures into their own?

Culturally, the Etruscans already exerted a great influence on the other Italian cultures. Indeed, other than language, there was a great deal of similarity between the Etruscans and the surrounding Italian peoples. So I don't think it would be as difficult as one might think.

Is it possible we will see an Third Babylonian Empire flowering many new ideas and Inventions?

Well, there is already a Third Babylonian Empire in this timeline. But as to whether it would be "flowering with new ideas and inventions," I doubt it. The Babylonians were actually a fairly conservative people, and the environment there is probably not very conducive to that.

After Carthage's Exhausting war with Macedon, I think they would most likely turn south and begin focusing their efforts into colonizing Africa?

It is possible some colonization may occur, but they will remain focused mainly on the Mediterranean. That is where the big money is.

Is it possible we would see an srong Celtic State in the North Blocking off Etruscan Expension, or would they fall to them also?

I think the Etruscan League would be less interested in territorial expansion than the Roman Republic was. The Etruscans were more of a commercial people than a warrior people (sort of like Carthage in that regard). So it is likely that the Celts of Gaul will survive in some form. Whether they form a strong state or not is another matter. In OTL there is some evidence that the Gauls were headed in that direction, and given more time may have gotten there.

Egypt althought not as rich as they were in the New Kingdom could also become and strong Power and providing an strong enemy to Carthage in Africa?

That's possible. Provided Alexander's successors don't decide to go rampaging through the eastern Mediterranean looking for land in which to set up their own kingdoms, which is still a distinct possibility.

[robertp6165]

Also is the Assyrian Revolt which took place in 350 BCE, in OTL Take place and are they able to reassert their Independce in this Timeline or remain under the Babylonian Crown?

They may revolt, but the Babylonians will likely crush them if they do.

[Historico]

Without the Help of the Romans...Will the Ancient Berber Kingdom of Numidia Arise in this TL? Or has Carthage become more of an Imperlisitc State and would likely crush any revolt? Could Numidia Arise to become and Powerful "Native and True" African to rival that of Egypt, and Kush?

[robertp6165]

Here is the first map for this timeline...

[Historico]

Interesting Map Robert, But acording to the Map...How would Egypt be able to secure the Phoenician City States without having Yehud under control?Without the Help of the Romans...Will the Ancient Berber Kingdom of Numidia Arise in this TL? Or has Carthage become more of an Imperlisitc State and would likely crush any revolt? Could Numidia Arise to become and Powerful "Native and True" African to rival that of Egypt, and Kush?

[robertp6165]

Interesting Map Robert, But acording to the Map...How would Egypt be able to secure the Phoenician City States without having Yehud under control?Without the Help of the Romans...Will the Ancient Berber Kingdom of Numidia Arise in this TL? Or has Carthage become more of an Imperlisitc State and would likely crush any revolt? Could Numidia Arise to become and Powerful "Native and True" African to rival that of Egypt, and Kush?

Yehud is under Egyptian control, even though not formally a part of the Egyptian empire. At the time portrayed on the map, the King of Yehud is a vassal and ally of Egypt, and in fact aided the Egyptians in conquering Phoenicia and Syria.

The Numidians will be there, but they may not be able to form their own state because Carthage is too powerful. The only reason they were able to break free from Carthage in OTL is that Carthage lost the first two Punic Wars against Rome. Unless something similar happens, it is unlikely they will be successful.

[Historico]

In this Timeline is it possible we will see the Greek city states around the Black Sea unite against the Diadochi States and expand into the Russian Steppe? Have Carthaginan Merchants & Colonists ran into problems with the Britions in Britannia? Why Wouldn't the Assyrian Revolt be successful(I doub't that Babylon could be as powerful as the Persians and be able to put it down as successfully). What are the policies of the more smaller and contained Diadochi states? What's going on in Iberia...Since they become an Independent state are they rulled by an Republic, Leuage or Kingdom(Tartessoss,Gades, Nova Carthagina?).

I also would like to see some other Members put their input into this potentially good Timeline.

[robertp6165]

Here is map #2

[Historico]

Great Map, Robert, I am really looking forward to the next Installment...But is it possible we will see the Greek city states around the Black Sea unite against the Diadochi States and expand into the Russian Steppe? Have Carthaginan Merchants & Colonists ran into problems with the Britions in Britannia? Why Wouldn't the Assyrian Revolt be successful(I doub't that Babylon could be as powerful as the Persians and be able to put it down as successfully). What are the policies of the more smaller and contained Diadochi states? What's going on in Iberia...Since they become an Independent state are they rulled by an Republic, Leuage or Kingdom(Tartessoss,Gades, Nova Carthagina?).

[Historico]

Great Map, Robert, I am really looking forward to the next Installment...But is it possible

1. Will the Greek city states around the Black Sea unite against the Diadochi States and expand into the Russian Steppe?

2. Have Carthaginan Merchants & Colonists ran into problems with the Britions in Britannia?

3.Why Wouldn't the Assyrian Revolt be successful(I doub't that Babylon could be as powerful as the Persians and be able to put it down as successfully).

4.What are the policies of the more smaller and contained Diadochi states?

5.What's going on in Iberia...Since they become an Independent state are they rulled by an Republic, Leauge or Kingdom(Tartessoss,Gades, Nova Carthagina?).

Keep it comming

[robertp6165]

1. Will the Greek city states around the Black Sea unite against the Diadochi States and expand into the Russian Steppe?

There is nothing in this timeline which makes that any more likely than in OTL.

2. Have Carthaginan Merchants & Colonists ran into problems with the Britions in Britannia?

Again, nothing in this timeline would make that any more likely than in OTL.

3.Why Wouldn't the Assyrian Revolt be successful(I doub't that Babylon could be as powerful as the Persians and be able to put it down as successfully).

Given Babylon's experiences with the Assyrians, the revolt may not happen at all, because Babylon will be watching the Assyrians like a hawk. In OTL, the revolt happened partly because of the tolerant policies followed by the Persians, which encouraged the Assyrians to think they could get away with it. And, since the Assyrians considered themselves to be a "brother people" with the Babylonians, they may not revolt anyway against a Babylonian regime.

4.What are the policies of the more smaller and contained Diadochi states?

All of the Diadochi states are ruled by aggressive Macedonian generals. They are going to be looking for one thing...expansion.

5.What's going on in Iberia...Since they become an Independent state are they rulled by an Republic, Leauge or Kingdom(Tartessoss,Gades, Nova Carthagina?).

Nothing in the timeline has diverted Hispania from the course of OTL...they are a collection of independent city states and tribes, and little more. There is no "independent state" there, in the sense of a state with control over more than a very small portion of the peninsula.

Keep it comming

With luck, I hope to post the next segment tomorrow.

[Historico]

[QUOTE=robertp6165]Again, nothing in this timeline would make that any more likely than in OTL. [QUOTE]

I was thinking on wether or not the Carthaginains actually made contact with Brittany in OTL? and What would be the Punic Policies dealing with the Britons and how much would it differ from Rome?

[Nicole]

[QUOTE=robertp6165]Again, nothing in this timeline would make that any more likely than in OTL. [QUOTE]

I was thinking on wether or not the Carthaginains actually made contact with Brittany in OTL? and What would be the Punic Policies dealing with the Britons and how much would it differ from Rome?
Were there Britons in Brittany at this time? I assume you mean the Brittany in present-Day France, after all, and I believe the Britons there are mostly refugees from Anglo-Saxon invasions.

[robertp6165]

CORRECTIONS TO EARLIER SEGMENTS OF THE TIMELINE.

318-308 BC--Civil War in Macedonia. Alexander III of Macedon returns home with the
survivors of his army from Sicily. Upon his return, he finds that in the ten years he has
been under blockade in Sicily, affairs at home have not gone well. A group of
Macedonian noblemen has conspired with King Aeacides of Epirus to depose him,
replacing him with his half-witted half-brother, Philip Arrhidaeus, who they can easily
control. These noblemen arrange to have Alexander assassinated shortly after his arrival
in Macedonia. But this simply opens the door to outright civil war, as generals loyal to
Alexander lead the veteran army returning from Sicily against the conspirators. The
Greek cities of the League of Corinth take the opportunity to rebel against Macedonian
control, and the entire Macedonian realm is soon the scene of bitter fighting. Fighting
goes on for ten years, and in the end, the Macedonian Empire falls apart. Antigonus
“One-Eye” ends up in control in Macedonia itself; Ptolemy and Seleucus end up with
realms in Anatolia (Ptolemy as King of Lydia and Seleucus as King of Cappadocia); and
Cassander, son of Antipater (who died in the first year of the civil war), sets himself up as
Tyrant of Sicily. The Greek cities regain their independence, and form the Achaean
League for mutual defense against Macedonia. Aeacides of Epirus is deposed, and Epirus
is ruled by Antigonus of Macedonia for several years.

310 BC onward--Cassander orders the rebuilding of Syracuse, recognizing it’s superb
location for trading and it’s strategic military value.


PART TWO: 300-250 BC

300 BC--By this time, Chandragupta Maurya, King of the northern Indian state of
Magadha, has built an empire encompassing most of northern India. In 300 BC he
attacks Persis, Bactria and Parthia, wresting territory from all of them. The Persian,
Parthian, and Bactrian kings agree to pay tribute, and Chandragupta retires.

c. 300 BC: Euclid writes the Elements of Geometry. Philosophic schools of
Epicureanism (Epicurus) and Stoicism (Zeno) founded. The Ramayana is composed.

300 BC-293 BC--The First War of the Diadochi. In 300 BC, King Seleucus of
Cappadocia, a Macedonian General who has carved out for himself a realm in Asia Minor
and is seeking to expand his realm, declares war on King Nabu-apal-usur II of Babylon.
Seleucid armies invade northern Mesopotamia, and defeat the Babylonian army near the
city of Opis. Seleucus occupies all of Mesopotamia down to Opis, and the stops to
consolidate his gains.

Meanwhile, King Nabu-apal-usur desperately seeks allies, and his entreaties meet a
favourable response at the court of King Ptolemy of Lydia, a rival Macedonian who also
has a realm in Asia Minor. In 299 BC, Ptolemy invades the Seleucid realm in Anatolia,
moving rapidly toward the Seleucid capital at Mazaca on the Halys River. Seleucus is
forced to withdraw most of his army northward to meet the Ptolemaic threat, and King
Nabu-apal-usur takes the opportunity to invade northern Mesopotamia. However, he is
defeated by the Seleucid garrison there and forced to retreat.

In 298 BC, Seleucus defeats the Ptolemaic army outside of Mazaca, and Ptolemy is
killed. Seleucus invades the Ptolemaic kingdom and annexes it, and Ptolemy Keraunos,
heir of the slain king, flees to the court of King Demetrius of Macedon. At this point,
Demetrius, fearing to see one of his rivals become too powerful, declares war on
Seleucus.

Demetrius lands an army in the Troad in 297 BC, while at the same time, King
Nabu-apal-usur of Babylon once again invades northern Mesopotamia. Demetrius is
defeated and forced to retreat back across the Hellaspont. The Babylonians are able to
make some gains, but do not reclaim all of their lost territory.

These will prove to be the last major campaigns of the war. Inconclusive skirmishing
will take place along the borders between the warring powers (mostly naval skirmishing
between Seleucus and Demetrius, and land skirmishing between Seleucus and the
Babylonians) for the next four years, in which Antigonus and Ptolemy Keraunos will
capture Cyprus but little else will change. A treaty is finally agreed upon in 293 BC,
ending the war. By the terms of the treaty, Seleucus is to keep the lands he has managed
to hold onto until the treaty was signed. Demetrius sets up Ptolemy Keraunos as King of
Cyprus...subordinate to himself, of course. Babylon recognizes the new border between
itself and Seleucus. The peace will not last long, however.

299 BC--Death of Pharaoh Nekhtnebef II of Egypt. He is succeeded by his son, who
reigns as Pharaoh Necho III. Death of King Antigonus “One-Eye” of Macedon. He is
succeeded by his son, Demetrius, who will go down in history as “The Besieger”
(Poliorcetes in Greek).

297 BC--Death of Cassander, Tyrant of Sicily. He is succeeded by his son, who reigns as
Tyrant Antipater II.

295 BC--Pyrrhus comes to the throne of Epirus.

293 BC--The Etruscan League inflicts a decisive defeat on the Celtic tribes north of the
Po River and occupies the lands north of the Po and south of the Alps. Some of the Celts
remain in the area and accept Etruscan rule, while others migrate north and east, joining
other migrating Celts who will soon be entering the Balkans.

290 BC--Bindusara, successor of Chandragupta Maurya, extends the Mauryan Empire to
the Deccan.

290-280 BC--Second War of the Diadochi: In 290 BC, King Demetrius Poliorcetes of
Macedon, having made alliances with his brother-in-law, King Pyrrhus of Epirus, King
Ptolemy Keraunos of Cyprus, and King Nabu-apal-usur II of Babylon, declares war on
King Seleucus of Lydia and Cappadocia (as his realm has come to be known).
Meanwhile, King Seleucus has made alliances with Tyrant Antipater II of Sicily and with
Pharaoh Necho III of Egypt. So, in short order, warfare engulfs the eastern Mediterranean
region and much of the near east.

In Anatolia, Macedonian and Cypriot armies clash with those of Seleucus. It is here, after
carrying out many sieges of Seleucid fortresses, that King Demetrius earns his nickname
of “Besieger.” But, although he takes several cities and inflicts a major defeat on the
Seleucid army near Sardis, Demetrius fails to achieve ultimate success, and Seleucus is
able to retain control of the most important cities in his realm. Demetrius is ultimately
forced to drop out of the war and abandon Anatolia in 281 BC by news of Celtic invaders
who are ravaging his Macedonian homeland, leaving Seleucus battered, but still in
control of his kingdom. Demetrius is killed fighting the Celts, and his successor,
Antigonus II Gonatas, sues for peace in 280 BC.

In other arenas, Seleucid armies, in alliance with those of Egypt, also clash with those of
Babylon and Cyprus in northern Syria. The war does not go so well for Seleucus there, as
the combined Seleucid and Egyptian army suffers a devastating defeat outside Damascus
in 285 BC in which Pharaoh Necho III is killed. The Babylonian army then moves north
and reclaims Mesopotamia and much of Armenia...since Seleucus is fully occupied with
fighting Demetrius of Macedon in western Anatolia, there is little he can do to stop the
Babylonian march. Meanwhile, the Cypriot army sweeps southward to gobble up Egypt’s
Asian possessions (they find ready allies in the Jews of Yehud, who have been in
rebellion against the Egyptians for some decades). Finally, in 283 BC, the Cypriots
under Ptolemy Keraunos enter Egypt itself, defeating the Egyptian army at Pelusium.
Pharaoh Psammuthes II is captured and executed, and Ptolemy Keraunos establishes
himself on the throne of Egypt by 280 BC.

Meanwhile, the forces of Epirus and Sicily battle for control of the Greek colonies in
Southern Italy. Pyrrhus lands an army at Tarentum, which was under siege by the forces
of Antipater of Sicily. Pyrrhus quickly proves his superiority as a general, and over the
next few years campaigns over much of southern Italy, inflicting defeat after defeat on
Antipater’s armies. However, Antipater’s fleet defeats that of Pyrrhus, effectively
blockading him in southern Italy, and so Pyrrhus is prevented from invading Sicily itself,
or returning home to Epirus. So the war eventually reaches a stalemate in that region,
with Pyrrhus in control of the Greek cities of southern Italy, and Antipater still uneasily
on his throne in Sicily.

A treaty is finally signed in 280 BC which recognizes the status quo as it exists at that
time.

288 BC--Death of King Nabu-apal-usur II of Babylon. He is succeeded by his son, who
reigns as King Hamurabbi II. Hamurabbi will successfully conclude Babylon’s
participation in the Second War of the Diadochi, and afterward his reign will be relatively
peaceful, and will see a flowering of the arts and culture in Babylonia. Hammurabi will
be known to history more as a builder than as a warrior.

285 BC--Death of Pharaoh Necho III of Egypt in battle outside of Damascus. He is
succeeded by his son, who reigns as Pharaoh Psammuthes II.

283 BC onward--The Jews of Yehud, having aided the Ptolemies in their conquest of
Egypt, expect to be rewarded with independence, or at least autonomy within the
Ptolemaic empire. They are given some lattitude, but in general, their dreams are frustrated.
In addition, under the influence of the Ptolemies, the Jews increasingly are exposed to
Hellenistic culture, which has deep impacts on their society. Many young Jews want to
blend in with the new regime and take part in Greek culture, and this is creating
problems. One major issue comes about as Jews start participating in Greek athletic
contests. It is the custom for those participating in these contests to do so naked. But
Jews, being circumcised, are often subjects of ridicule by the uncircumcised Greeks, who
consider the exposed glans of the penis to be a sign of sexual excitement. This makes
many young Jews resentful of their own Jewish heritage, which in turn, creates anger and
resentment against the Greeks among many Jewish religious leaders, who feel the Greeks
are “corrupting” Jewish youth. Tensions will continue to build in the province over the
succeeding decades.

282 BC--Pharaoh Psammuthes II of Egypt is captured and executed by Ptolemy Keraunos
of Cyprus. End of native rule in Egypt.

281-278 BC--Celtic Invasions of Macedonia and Greece: Beginning in 281 BC,
migrating Celtic tribes (Gauls) under the leadership of Brennus enter Thrace and begin
invading Macedon and northern Greece. In 281 BC, they defeat the Macedonian army,
killing and beheading King Demetrius Poliorcetes, and ravage Macedon. In 279 BC, the
Celtic onslaught storms through Greece and succeeds in sacking Delphi, only to meet
defeat shortly afterwards at the hands of the Macedonian army commanded by the new
King, Antigonus II Gonatas. Brennus kills himself shortly afterward, supposedly by
drinking “undiluted wine.” However, Macedon loses control of Illyria and much of
Thrace to the Celts, who settle the region in large numbers. Indeed, Thrace will become
so dominated by Celts that it comes to be known as Galatia, and the Celts there will
establish a powerful state which will give Macedon much trouble in the years to come.

280 BC--Concerned by the new power of Epirus which has extended it’s reach over
southern Italy, the Etruscan League renews it’s old alliance with Carthage. Also at this
time, the Etruscan League grants a vote on the Great Council to the Latin cities of Latium,
which have been non-voting members of the League for about 150 years, but have been
ruled by Etruscan dynasties since the end of the War of Volumnius. In order to preserve
the dominance of the original Etruscan cities on the governing body of the League, the
Great Council is reorganized, and a bi-cameral legislative body is created. A new upper
house, The Senate, is created, to be composed of members from the original Etruscan
cities, while the original Great Council, representing all League cities, becomes the lower
house. The Great Council continues to function as in the past, but the Senate...which
does not pass laws itself...has the right to veto any law which is passed by said Council.

279 BC--The poor performance of Sicilian arms in the recent war has weakened Tyrant
Antipater II’s hold on the throne of Sicily. In 279 BC he is murdered by his cousin,
Sosthenes, who usurps the throne. Antipater’s son, Agathocles, flees to Carthage. Also in
this year, King Demetrius Poliorcetes of Macedon is killed in battle with invading Celts.
He is succeeded by his son, Antigonus II Gonatas (“knock-kneed”).

278 BC--Ptolemy Keraunos is murdered by his brother, also called Ptolemy, who usurps
the Egyptian Throne. He marries his sister, Arsinoe, who is the widow of Macedonian
General Lysimachus (who was killed whilst fighting for Seleucus during the Second War
of the Diadochi). This union, while sanctioned by Egyptian custom, scandalizes the
Greeks. As in Macedon under Antigonus Gonatas, his reign will mark a minor golden
age of Hellenistic culture. Ptolemy will found a major new city on the Egyptian
Mediterranean Coast, named Ptolemaia, and will maintain a splendid court there. He will
patronize scientists, poets, and philosophers. And he will also found a royal library which
will become a center of learning for the Mediterranean world.

277-269 BC--The Fourth Sicilian War: Agathocles, son and legitimate heir of Tyrant
Antipater II of Sicily, convinces the Carthaginian Senate to support him in his bid to
reclaim the Sicilian throne. The Carthaginians declare war on Tyrant Sosthenes in 277
BC, and Carthaginian forces cross the Halcyus River. Carthage calls on the Etruscan
League to join in the attack, but the League declines to take part in an aggressive war.
Carthage defeats Sosthenes at Himera, and pursues him back to his capital at Syracuse,
which they place under siege. In desperation, Sosthenes sends a plea for assistance to
Pyrrhus of Epirus, who lands with an army and raises the siege of Syracuse. Over the
next two years, Pyrrhus drives the Carthaginians back, until only their base at Lilybaeum
(on the far western end of the island) remains to them. The Carthaginians now again call
upon the Etruscan League for assistance, and this time, the Etruscans honour their
alliance, since Carthage is clearly on the defensive. An Etruscan army and fleet arrives in
Sicily, and begins cooperating with the Carthaginians. Another Etruscan army begins
moving south toward the Epirote possessions in southern Italy (this army will not make
much progress, but will tie up substantial Epirote forces which could otherwise have been
deployed to Sicily). In 275 BC, the combined Carthaginian and Etruscan fleet inflicts a
massive defeat on that of Pyrrhus off Tarentum, sinking over three quarters of the Epirote
fleet. Meanwhile, the Greek cities of southern Italy, which have been very unhappy under
the despotic rule of Pyrrhus, rebel and throw out the Epirote garrisons. Pyrrhus, who
fears being cut off in Sicily and separated from his sources of supply and reinforcements,
abandons Sicily and returns to Epirus, leaving Sosthenes to his fate. The Carthaginians
and Etruscans once again advance eastward from Lilybaeum. The allies lay siege to
Syracuse again in 273 BC. The city holds out for four years, until the allies finally
manage to totally defeat the Sicilian fleet and cut off Syracuse from supply by sea. The
city surrenders in 269 BC. Sosthenes, in desperation, commits suicide. The
Carthaginians, instead of restoring Agathocles to his throne, renege on their alliance with
him, and he is taken back to Carthage and crucified. End of the Antipatrid Dynasty of
Sicily. The Carthaginians want to raze Syracuse to the ground and sell the inhabitants
into slavery, but the Etruscans...remembering the low return they got from previous
interventions in Sicily...demand the city for themselves. Not desiring to go to
war...yet...against their erstwhile allies, the Carthaginians agree. An Etruscan king is
installed in Syracuse, who rules the city and the surrounding region. The rest of the
island goes to Carthage.

275-273 BC--King Cyrus III of Persis invades Elam. The Elamites are defeated outside
the capital at Susa, and Cyrus lays siege to the city. A two year siege results, but Susa
eventually falls. Cyrus adds the Elamite lands to his own.

274 BC--King Pyrrhus of Epirus, arriving back in Epirus, decides to take advantage of the
chaos reigning in Macedonia since the Celtic invasions of a few years before and invade.
He defeats the army of King Antigonus II Gonatas and usurps the Macedonian throne.

273 BC--Death of King Seleucus I of Lydia and Cappadocia. He is succeeded by his son,
Antiochus I.

272 BC--King Pyrrhus of Epirus and Macedonia decides to bring the Greek cities of the
Achaean League under his control, but is killed while besieging Argos. Antigonus II
Gonatas resumes the Macedonian throne and recognizes Greek independence. The latter
part of his reign will be comparatively peaceful...marred only by intermittent border raids
by the Celts of Galatia... and he gains the affection of his subjects by his honesty and his
cultivation of the arts. He gathers round him distinguished literary men...philosophers,
poets, and historians...and his reign marks a minor “golden age” of Hellenistic culture in
the region. Meanwhile, Alexander II, son of Pyrrhus, assumes the throne of Epirus.
Alexander is a weak ruler, and will pay tribute to Antigonus II of Macedon for most of his
reign.

270 BC--King Cyrus III of Persis, emboldened by his victory over the Elamites, declares
war on Media. He is defeated and killed by the Medes near Ecbatana. He is succeeded
by his son, who reigns as Xerxes IV. Xerxes, unlike his father, is not an aggressive ruler,
and peace will generally reign on the Iranian plateau for the next couple of decades.

270-240 BC--Intermittent warfare between the Seleucids and the Ptolemies for control of
Syria and Palestine. By the end of the period, the Seleucids have achieve control of Syria,
but Palestine remains in the hands of the Ptolemies.

269 BC onward--Period of deteriorating relations between Carthage and the Etruscan
League. Carthage, upset at having had to accede to the Etruscan demand for Syracuse at
the conclusion of the recent war, takes an increasingly hostile attitude toward the
Etruscans. The Etruscans, aiming to break the Carthaginian stranglehold on trade in the
western Mediterranean, build up Syracuse into a major naval base which directly
threatens Carthaginian control of the surrounding region. A tense “cold war” results
which will last for some time without bursting into active hostilities.

261 BC--Death of King Antiochus I of Lydia and Cappadocia. He is succeeded by his
son, who reigns as King Antiochus II.

258-252 BC--King Antiochus II of Lydia and Cappadocia declares war on King
Hammurabi II of Babylon. In bitter fighting, Seleucid armies retake Armenia and part of
northern Mesopotamia. But a new outbreak of fighting on the border between the
Seleucids and the Ptolemies forces Antiochus to cut short the war, and Hammurabi
accepts a peace based on the current status quo in 252 BC.

259 BC--The Mauryan King Ashoka converts to Buddhism and sends out Buddhist
missionaries to the surrounding regions.

c. 250 BC--The Parni, a Scythian tribe from the region north of the Jaxartes River, move
south into Parthia.

[robertp6165]

Here also is a revision to map #2.

[G.Bone]

Good installment although a bit chaotic with all the diverse powers going at each other's throats. When will you update the Hittite and the Incan [I can't spell their name for each other] TL?

[Tom_B]

I enjoy this TL and would like to see it continued.

[robertp6165]

Good installment although a bit chaotic with all the diverse powers going at each other's throats. When will you update the Hittite and the Incan [I can't spell their name for each other] TL?

The decades after Alexander's death were a chaotic time in OTL, too. As for the Hittites and Tawantinsuya, I am not sure yet. I may try to finish out the rest of the century on this timeline before I return to the others.

[robertp6165]

I enjoy this TL and would like to see it continued.

Thank you. Rest assured, it will be continued.

[Historico]

Great Installment Robert, I was not dissapointed(Except for it being in an Fifty year Segment) But anyways it's all good. Yeah, I'ts good to see some Etruscan Expansion(Sicily and Syracuse next?). Epirus is starting to get on my nerves(I hope the Etruscans take out in the next 50 years, and taking Illyria along the way). I'm all for going a head and nocking this century out before embarking on the Hittite and Tawantisuya TL's. I got some more questions for ya.



1. Galatia....Is is an Monarchy or Republic of Gauls? I do see them expanding in the next century or so in to the Black Sea Territories. With an powerful State of Gauls in the east, maybe is enough to get the celts in Gaul to get their act together.

2. Were the Etruscans big on Science, Mathmatics, Astronomy or any other "Greek Sciences"?

3. I don't know about this Cold War between Carthage and Etruia...Could we an possible continuation ofbalance of Power for both Etruscan and Punic influences in the Western Medeterranien without the destruction of either power? We might need an strong Third Buffer state do that.

4. What's going on in East Italy right now...Why didn't the Etruscans just annex or allow them to come into the Leauge?

5. I love the idea of creating Ptolemeia and it being OTL's Alexandria. But In TTL we will see an more Integrated policy between the Egyptian Natives and the Greeks than in OTL? Also What's going on in Kush and Axum.

6. Will Yehud adopt more of an Hellenistic view because of control by the Ptolomies? Will the Maccebees even revolt in this TL, or maybe even be accepted into the Achaen Leauge? Also what's going on with the Nabateans.

7. Also what's Going on in Dacia at this Point and has it had an chance to become an real threat to the Etruscans in this Timeline?

[robertp6165]

I got some more questions for ya.

1. Galatia....Is is an Monarchy or Republic of Gauls?

The state of Galatia is based on the OTL state of Galatia which arose in central Anatolia (in the OTL, the Celts were transported over by a Greek king who wanted them to fight on his side in a war with another Greek successor state. In the ATL, nobody offered to transport them over to Anatolia, so they settled in Thrace). Their governmental system would be similar to OTL Galatia's (details from here (http://www.celticleague.org/history_8-02.html)), described below.

Faithful to the Celtic love of triads, the Galatians sorted themselves out into three main parts. The central part of Galatia belonged to a tribe known as the Tectosages, who established a capitol at Ancyra (Celtic “anchor”), today the Turkish capitol of Ankara. Westward lay the lands of the Tolistbobolii, with their main town at Pressinus, and to the East were the Trocmi whose main town was Tavium.

Like other Celts, the Galatians shied away from establishing a strong central government. Instead each of the three tribes sent four tetarachs and 100 senators to a grand national council held annually at Drynemeton, near Ancyra.

So I guess you can say they are a form of republic.

I do see them expanding in the next century or so in to the Black Sea Territories. With an powerful State of Gauls in the east, maybe is enough to get the celts in Gaul to get their act together.

Expansion northeastward could possibly happen. They are pretty far away from Gaul, so whether they will have any direct influence there is much less certain.

2. Were the Etruscans big on Science, Mathmatics, Astronomy or any other "Greek Sciences"?

They were avid copiers of Greek culture generally, so I would assume so. But since we have very little in the way of Etruscan literature left to us...practically nothing, in fact...it is hard to say for sure.

3. I don't know about this Cold War between Carthage and Etruia...Could we an possible continuation ofbalance of Power for both Etruscan and Punic influences in the Western Medeterranien without the destruction of either power? We might need an strong Third Buffer state do that.

That is the problem. There is effectively no buffer between them anymore, now that the Greeks have been basically removed from the chessboard of the eastern Mediterranean. Now the Etruscans and Carthage can look at each other dispassionately and see each other as the natural trade and military rivals they are.

4. What's going on in East Italy right now...Why didn't the Etruscans just annex or allow them to come into the Leauge?

It's occupied by semi-civilized Oscan-Umbrian tribes (the Marsi and others). The Etruscans are trading with them and have good relations with them, but don't consider them ready for membership in the League yet.

5. I love the idea of creating Ptolemeia and it being OTL's Alexandria. But In TTL we will see an more Integrated policy between the Egyptian Natives and the Greeks than in OTL?

Given that the Ptolemaic Dynasty is now established on the throne as per OTL, its unlikely. But it could happen.

Also What's going on in Kush and Axum.

Axum is just getting started, the city having been founded about 300 BC. Kush is in a seriously declining state and poses no real threat to the powers further north...nor does it present a prize worth conquering.

6. Will Yehud adopt more of an Hellenistic view because of control by the Ptolomies? Will the Maccebees even revolt in this TL?

Basically, a large segment of the population will want to adopt Hellenistic ways, but this will thoroughly piss off the rest of the population, especially the powerful religious hierarchy. Something like the Maccabean Revolt is probably in the works, as tensions continue to build.

or maybe even be accepted into the Achaen Leauge?

Unlikely.

Also what's going on with the Nabateans. Probably similar to OTL. They would have moved into the region south and east of the Dead Sea about 350 BC and established their capital at Petra. They are caravan traders who grow rich as middlemen in the frankincense and myrrh trades.

7. Also what's Going on in Dacia at this Point and has it had an chance to become an real threat to the Etruscans in this Timeline?

Dacia was located in what is now Romania. They are nowhere near the Etruscans.

[Historico]

They were avid copiers of Greek culture generally, so I would assume so. But since we have very little in the way of Etruscan literature left to us...practically nothing, in fact...it is hard to say for sure.

That being said will there be any attempt made by the Etruscan Leauge of setting up it's own libary(Maybe in Veii) to keep ahold of it's sacred records?




It's occupied by semi-civilized Oscan-Umbrian tribes (the Marsi and others). The Etruscans are trading with them and have good relations with them, but don't consider them ready for membership in the League yet.

So why don't the Etruscans just simply conquer these semi-civilized Oscan-Umbrian tribes if they don't seem them fit enough to apply for membership to the Leauge. It would increase the cize of the Etruscan Military and give them more ports on the Adriatic



Basically, a large segment of the population will want to adopt Hellenistic ways, but this will thoroughly piss off the rest of the population, especially the powerful religious hierarchy. Something like the Maccabean Revolt is probably in the works, as tensions continue to build.


I was trying to say that once the heavilly Hellenized Population come of age why don't they just overthrow the Old Hierchy and establish something similar to an Greek Democracy in Yehud?



Dacia was located in what is now Romania. They are nowhere near the Etruscans.

What I mean was, Has the Kingdom of Dacia established itself as influential Power in the Balkans...Putting Pressure on Macedon and Galatia. I got some more Questions.

1. Go ahead and nock this century out, before deciding to start on the other TL's.

2. Why hasn't the Etruscan's made any attempt or Massila itself made any attempt to apply for memebership in to the Leauge? It could serve as an possible Barrier to the invading Celts.

3. I was thinking on wether or not the Carthaginains actually made contact with Brittany in OTL? and What would be the Punic Policies dealing with the Britons and how much would it differ from Rome?

[Historico]

What about havinhg the Italiotes of Sicily rise to the occasion an provide an great Third Power in the Western Medeterraien? Maybe Magna Greecia could prove to be an great reawakener to the Classical Age?

[Historico]

Here are some more questions robert...

1.So why don't the Etruscans just simply conquer these semi-civilized Oscan-Umbrian tribes if they don't seem them fit enough to apply for membership to the Leauge. It would increase the cize of the Etruscan Military and give them more ports on the Adriatic






2. Once the heavilly Hellenized Population come of age why don't they just overthrow the Old Hierchy and establish something similar to an Greek Democracy in Yehud?


3. Has the Kingdom of Dacia established itself as influential Power in the Balkans...Putting Pressure on Macedon and Galatia. I got some more Questions.

4. 0Go ahead and nock this century out, before deciding to start on the other TL's.

5 Why hasn't the Etruscan's made any attempt or Massila itself made any attempt to apply for memebership in to the Leauge? It could serve as an possible Barrier to the invading Celts.

6. I was thinking on wether or not the Carthaginains actually made contact with Brittany in OTL? and What would be the Punic Policies dealing with the Britons and how much would it differ from Rome?

7. What about havinhg the Italiotes of Sicily rise to the occasion an provide an great Third Power in the Western Medeterraien? Maybe Magna Greecia could prove to be an great reawakener to the Classical Age?

[Historico]

I found some rather Interesting Info on the Etruscan in terms of Science

The Etruscans had a deep knowledge of Hydrology and hydraulics, a knowledge which they put to good use in their many land drainage schemes. The lower lying portions of Rome such as the area between the Capitol and Velia was formerly marshland. Settlement of the low-lying ground would never have been a possibility without the hydraulic engineering skills of the Etruscans.This took place around 625 BCE when, according to archaeological evidence a network of drainage channels was dug through the marshy ground, and at the same time, the stream that separated the two hills of the Capitoline and Palatine was regulated, its embankments were strengthened, and it was finally covered over.

That remarkable structure, the Cloacha Maxima, which is still functioning today is the outlet of an underground canal which runs for some six hundred yards from the Forum and keeps it dry by collecting the water that flows down the Quirinal and Viminal. Pliny the Elder in his "Natural History" talks of "the public sewers, a work more stupendous that any; as mountains had to be pierced for their construction……Navigation had to be carried out beneath Rome….It is said that Tarquinius made these sewers of dimensions sufficiently large to admit of a wagon laden with hay passing along them"

Nowadays, the sewer systems of Rome are taken for granted.


é

Knowledge of Geology

At Viterbo, where the remains of Etruscan Surina lie, the underlying rock is perforated by innumerable channels, devised to drain the ground. Their construction shows that the builders had an incredibly detailed knowledge of the local geology. Below the topsoil lie volcanic formations of tufa, and beneath that again, a deeply fissured layer. A modern report reads " The deep layer is saturated with moisture from the subterranean outflow of the crater lakes. The topsoil absorbs all the rainwater. The surplus from the two layers passes into the middle layer from which it cannot evaporate and which remains permanently wet. The land was only dry and healthy as long as water was removed from this absorbent layer of Tufa". Investigation has shown that it was precisely through this layer that the Etruscans drove their cuniculi, as the drainage tunnels are called.

This knowledge of hydraulic engineering was also put to good use in regulating river flows, in preventing the silting up of harbours, and in providing a complex system of reticulated water for public use. This has long since fallen into disuse, although traces of the pressurised water systems have been found in recent times.

Now would under the Influence of the Etruscan Leauge, the Science of Geology become more popular and studied in Ptolemiea? And Possibly there isn't an devasting Disastor on pompeii?

[robertp6165]

That being said will there be any attempt made by the Etruscan Leauge of setting up it's own libary(Maybe in Veii) to keep ahold of it's sacred records?

They might do that. But there might be a problem with long-term preservation. Most Etruscan records seem to have been written on wax tablets...which oddly enough were sometimes bound together into codices (i.e. books). This is one reason why so little survives today. The wax tablets are extraordinarily fragile and simply don't last.

Of course it would have been possible to import a more durable material, but that would be very expensive. And since the wax tablets work well enough for everyday use, the Etruscans might not see the need to invest large sums to purchase more durable writing material for archival storage.

So even if they do found a library, it might not last long enough to have an impact on the advance of science.

So why don't the Etruscans just simply conquer these semi-civilized Oscan-Umbrian tribes if they don't seem them fit enough to apply for membership to the Leauge. It would increase the cize of the Etruscan Military and give them more ports on the Adriatic.

The Etruscans aren't Romans. They aren't an extremely aggressive people. They prefer to integrate the surrounding peoples into their structure gradually, starting with trade first, then moving onto a military alliance, and finally membership in the League. They moved militarily against the Celts to the north because the Celts were a threat that needed to be eradicated. The Marsi and related tribes are friendly and are not a threat.


I was trying to say that once the heavilly Hellenized Population come of age why don't they just overthrow the Old Hierchy and establish something similar to an Greek Democracy in Yehud?

For the same reasons they didn't do so in OTL. The Hellenized portion of the population is a minority, mainly concentrated in the cities. The average Jew who lives in the countryside is not Hellenized and won't be.

What I mean was, Has the Kingdom of Dacia established itself as influential Power in the Balkans...Putting Pressure on Macedon and Galatia. I got some more Questions.

Not as of yet. They have been pretty badly beaten up by the Celts, during their migration southward.

2. Why hasn't the Etruscan's made any attempt or Massila itself made any attempt to apply for memebership in to the Leauge? It could serve as an possible Barrier to the invading Celts.

Massilia is itself under constant threat from the Celts. It is not in a position to serve as a barrier for the Etruscans. And the Massilians are Greeks, who the Etruscans consider to be trade rivals. They certainly don't want to expend any energy protecting Massilia.

I was thinking on wether or not the Carthaginains actually made contact with Brittany in OTL? and What would be the Punic Policies dealing with the Britons and how much would it differ from Rome?

I am assuming you mean "contact with Britain," not with "Brittany." Brittany did not exist at this time...it only came into existence during the 400s AD, when British Celts fled there from invading Scots, Picts, and Anglo-Saxons.

But yes, the Carthaginians have made contact with Britain, and are importing tin from there. They do not have any permanent settlements there, and likely will have none, at least for quite some time.

[robertp6165]

What about havinhg the Italiotes of Sicily rise to the occasion an provide an great Third Power in the Western Medeterraien? Maybe Magna Greecia could prove to be an great reawakener to the Classical Age?

The Carthaginians and Etruscans have gone to great pains to eliminate the Greeks as rivals in the Western Mediterranean. Why would they want to allow the Italian Greeks to rise as a great power? They just got done throwing out Pyrrhus of Epirus!

[robertp6165]

I found some rather Interesting Info on the Etruscan in terms of Science...Now would under the Influence of the Etruscan Leauge, the Science of Geology become more popular and studied in Ptolemiea?

It's possible.

And Possibly there isn't an devasting Disastor on pompeii?

Etruscan geological and engineering know-how is not going to prevent Mount Vesuvius from erupting. Pompeii is doomed.

[Nicole]

Etruscan geological and engineering know-how is not going to prevent Mount Vesuvius from erupting. Pompeii is doomed.
Pompeii won't even exist, as it's named after Pompey :p

[robertp6165]

Pompeii won't even exist, as it's named after Pompey :p

Actually, Pompeii was founded in the 6th century BC by the Oscans of Campania. It existed long, long before Pompey.

[Nicole]

Actually, Pompeii was founded in the 6th century BC by the Oscans of Campania. It existed long, long before Pompey.
Ah, really? Then I suppose my Latin teacher was wrong... Hm, but wikipedia does back you up....

[Historico]

They might do that. But there might be a problem with long-term preservation. Most Etruscan records seem to have been written on wax tablets...which oddly enough were sometimes bound together into codices (i.e. books). This is one reason why so little survives today. The wax tablets are extraordinarily fragile and simply don't last.

Of course it would have been possible to import a more durable material, but that would be very expensive. And since the wax tablets work well enough for everyday use, the Etruscans might not see the need to invest large sums to purchase more durable writing material for archival storage.

So even if they do found a library, it might not last long enough to have an impact on the advance of science.

True, But I guess It would be left to the Greeks in Ptolemeia...who would most likley ask for the Wax codics, so they can be copied onto Papyrus. But would the Etruscans let the Greeks see their Information.





The Etruscans aren't Romans. They aren't an extremely aggressive people. They prefer to integrate the surrounding peoples into their structure gradually, starting with trade first, then moving onto a military alliance, and finally membership in the League. They moved militarily against the Celts to the north because the Celts were a threat that needed to be eradicated. The Marsi and related tribes are friendly and are not a threat.

So, The Etruscans...Probably won't expand unless they decide in a time of war, that taking Territory is necessary?





For the same reasons they didn't do so in OTL. The Hellenized portion of the population is a minority, mainly concentrated in the cities. The average Jew who lives in the countryside is not Hellenized and won't be.

Well, I thought, since under the Ptolomies, more people became more Hellenized because of the loose Policy?




Not as of yet. They have been pretty badly beaten up by the Celts, during their migration southward.

Just don't forget about Dacia, It was an large amount of wealth for Rome in OTL, It will be a shame to see it washed down the drain.

Massilia is itself under constant threat from the Celts. It is not in a position to serve as a barrier for the Etruscans. And the Massilians are Greeks, who the Etruscans consider to be trade rivals. They certainly don't want to expend any energy protecting Massilia.

Well, Like I assume you meant...In a crisis, Massilla and other citites along eastern Iberia could be great target in time of war with Carthage. And What about Syracuse, who were primarly Greeks, and they turned it into an naval base. Etruscan Treatment of the Greeks can't be all that bad...So the Massilians might put in a plea for aid against the celts, while the Etruscans needing more men against Carthage...accepts?

I am assuming you mean "contact with Britain," not with "Brittany." Brittany did not exist at this time...it only came into existence during the 400s AD, when British Celts fled there from invading Scots, Picts, and Anglo-Saxons.

But yes, the Carthaginians have made contact with Britain, and are importing tin from there. They do not have any permanent settlements there, and likely will have none, at least for quite some time.

Well, My questions were, If the Carthaginians had any permeneant settlments in the British Isles and you answered it?

But where do you think in a time of need to evacute, the Carthaginans might go? To Britian? Iberia, West Africa?

[Historico]

The Carthaginians and Etruscans have gone to great pains to eliminate the Greeks as rivals in the Western Mediterranean. Why would they want to allow the Italian Greeks to rise as a great power? They just got done throwing out Pyrrhus of Epirus!


Well, It looks Indefinatley like the Punic Wars are still going to happen but will it play out like it did in OTL, I seriously doubt it? You know and Interesting twist might be the Hellenistic Empires takes sides and they still duke it out for control of the Medeterranien.

But Rob remember in a world without Rome, Carthago Supervivenda est!(Carthage ought to survive). I also have some more questions for you

1. Have the Etruscans returned back to their thasslocratic ways, and become an major Naval Power Again? Have the been finding colonies and where would be the most like way to go?(Carthage pretty much has the Pillars of Hercules on Lockdown)

2. Haven't the Ptolomies, heard the legends of Nubia's Wealth, and maybe they could tacke an weaker Kush and newborn Axum?

[robertp6165]

Well, It looks Indefinatley like the Punic Wars are still going to happen but will it play out like it did in OTL, I seriously doubt it?

I don't know if the Punic Wars are still going to be fought in the ATL. The Carthaginians and Etruscans are rivals, and they may end up sparring for control of Sicily, now that the Etruscans have a foothold there. But neither the Etruscans or the Carthaginians are much interested in conquest for conquest's sake, unlike the Romans. So I seriously doubt either will contemplate a war of annihilation against the other.

You know and Interesting twist might be the Hellenistic Empires takes sides and they still duke it out for control of the Medeterranien.

That's a possibility too.

But Rob remember in a world without Rome, Carthago Supervivenda est!(Carthage ought to survive).

I agree. That is rather the point of the timeline...to see how the various civilizations that Rome destroyed might have developed if they had not been destroyed by Rome.

1. Have the Etruscans returned back to their thasslocratic ways, and become an major Naval Power Again?

Yes, which is one source of conflict between the Etruscans and Carthage.

Have the been finding colonies and where would be the most like way to go?(Carthage pretty much has the Pillars of Hercules on Lockdown)

They have been too busy defending themselves in Italy to worry about colonies, at least up to this point. But if they do decide to colonize, it will be a further source of conflict between them and Carthage.

Haven't the Ptolomies, heard the legends of Nubia's Wealth, and maybe they could tacke an weaker Kush and newborn Axum?

No more reason for that to occur in the ATL than it did in OTL. Besides, Nubia's wealth was pretty much played out by this time. The Nubian gold mines mostly ran dry in the final years of the New Kingdom of Egypt. Indeed, that was one major reason for the final collapse of the New Kingdom. They ran out of gold when the Nubian mines ran dry.

[robertp6165]

True, But I guess It would be left to the Greeks in Ptolemeia...who would most likley ask for the Wax codics, so they can be copied onto Papyrus. But would the Etruscans let the Greeks see their Information.

I don't think the Etruscans themselves are going to be a major contributor to scientific advancement. But the fact that they destroyed Rome should allow the Hellenistic civilization of the east to survive longer, which could have all kinds of impacts on the advancement of science...eventually.

So, The Etruscans...Probably won't expand unless they decide in a time of war, that taking Territory is necessary?

Basically correct.

Well, I thought, since under the Ptolomies, more people became more Hellenized because of the loose Policy?

It will still tend to be concentrated in the cities, where the Greeks will be able to exert cultural influence. In the countryside...where the majority of people live...Greek influence will be practically nil.

Just don't forget about Dacia, It was an large amount of wealth for Rome in OTL, It will be a shame to see it washed down the drain.

Nothing has happened in this timeline so far to derail the rise of Dacia.



Well, Like I assume you meant...In a crisis, Massilla and other citites along eastern Iberia could be great target in time of war with Carthage. And What about Syracuse, who were primarly Greeks, and they turned it into an naval base. Etruscan Treatment of the Greeks can't be all that bad...So the Massilians might put in a plea for aid against the celts, while the Etruscans needing more men against Carthage...accepts?

Assuming the Etruscan rule in Syracuse is successful, this could be a possibility.

But where do you think in a time of need to evacute, the Carthaginans might go? To Britian? Iberia, West Africa?

That assumes they are going to need to evacuate, which is by no means certain. I would think Iberia the most likely destination, in the event something like that occurred. Or Sicily.

[Historico]

Well, Robert, I think you pretty much answered all my questions based on the last segment...So when is the next one due?

[Othniel]

Hmm...now this has got me wondering about a tl where Carthage was never founded....That leaves many questions indeed.

[Historico]

Now once Carthage's hold on the Pillars are broken...Is it possible that we might see the Carthaginians and the Etruscans compete for trade and possible settlemts for the Northern tin trade in Brition and the Amber trade in Thule?

Also...In a Timeline without Rome, how would contact between Han China and The Etruscan Leauge/Carthage would progress. Who would provide the most likley canidate to participate in active Trade in China? And who would be most likley absorb China's own technologies for their own benefits?

Could an Etruscan discover the art of Paper making on by itself while doing trade with the Celt's in Germany? It would be an cheap and effective way of transferring the wax codicies into an longer lasting material and an possible spark for an war against the Germanic tribes?

Have any Carthaginian or even Etruscan Mercants attempted to succeed were Hanno feld and find stronger colonies in West Africa? And what events would have to take place to push the Carthaginians southward to possible pick up the Ivory,salt, and Gold trades to the Medeterranien.

The Etruscan Religion was, like Christianity and Judaism, a revealed religion. An account of the revelation is given by Cicero(On Divination 2.50) . One day, says the legend, in a field near the river Marta in Teruria, a strange event occurred. A divine being rose up from the newly ploughed furrow, a being with the appearance of a child, but with the wisdom of an old man. The startled cry of the ploughman brought lucomones, the priest kings of Etruria hurrying up to the spot. To them, the wise child chanted the sacred doctrine, which they reverently listened to and wrote down, so that this most precious possession could be passed on to their successors. Immediately after the revelation, the miraculous being fell dead and disappeared into the ploughed field. His name was Tages, and he was believed to be the son of Genius and grandson of the highest God, Tinia (or Jupiter as he became known to the Romans). This doctrine was known to the Romans as the disciplina etrusca,

So in this TL, Could we see an more accepting Italy under Etruscan Rule with the analogues of Tages and Jesus(Assuming that his life might be differnet under an longer lasting Hasmonean Dynasty?

[DuQuense]

If this time line's events are going to get into Black Africa, remember that horses and camels cannot be used in tsetse fly country because of the "nagana pest" trypanosome disease that the tsetse fly carries.

The Camel wasn't imported into North Africa till the 3rd century AD, and didn't reach the west coast till the Fifth.

not sure if more conflict will accelerate or retard this.

[robertp6165]

Now once Carthage's hold on the Pillars are broken...Is it possible that we might see the Carthaginians and the Etruscans compete for trade and possible settlemts for the Northern tin trade in Brition and the Amber trade in Thule?

I imagine they will compete for tin from Britain, if Carthage's hold on the Pillars of Heracles is broken, which is a big "if." However, there is no need for them to go all the way to Iceland (Thule) for amber. They can import it overland over the alps from northern Europe, just like the Romans did.

Also...In a Timeline without Rome, how would contact between Han China and The Etruscan Leauge/Carthage would progress. Who would provide the most likley canidate to participate in active Trade in China? And who would be most likley absorb China's own technologies for their own benefits?

I think that either one of them having much in the way of contact with China is a remote possibility. They will probably receive trade goods from China via the Silk Road and seaborne trade route through Egypt. But trading directly...as in traveling to China...not likely.

Could an Etruscan discover the art of Paper making on by itself while doing trade with the Celt's in Germany? It would be an cheap and effective way of transferring the wax codicies into an longer lasting material and an possible spark for an war against the Germanic tribes?

Well, anything is possible, I suppose. But there is really nothing in this timeline that would directly cause this.

Have any Carthaginian or even Etruscan Mercants attempted to succeed were Hanno feld and find stronger colonies in West Africa?

No

And what events would have to take place to push the Carthaginians southward to possible pick up the Ivory,salt, and Gold trades to the Medeterranien.

Hanno's account of his voyage did not mention that he found anything of much value during his voyage. This is undoubtedly why no further attempts were made. Nothing in this timeline changes that.


So in this TL, Could we see an more accepting Italy under Etruscan Rule with the analogues of Tages and Jesus(Assuming that his life might be differnet under an longer lasting Hasmonean Dynasty?

That's a possibility.

[Historico]

So when is the next Installment Due?

[Historico]

What started as a shameless bump...actually got a new Question working...With The Celts in Thrace are they still manafactuaring the Thracian Gold to the Greeks? And Could the Celts begin to absorb aspects of Greek cultures like their Acadamies and Science because of their new Proximity and without rome on their back?

[Historico]

The original population of Noricum (mostly modern day Austria) consisted of Illyrians, who after the great emigration of the Gauls became subordinate to various Celtic tribes. It is in Noricum that we first hear of almost all the Celtic invasions, and was the starting-point of the attacks upon Italia in the early Roman Republic.

In approximately 200 BCE, an alliance of 13 of these tribes established the first Celtic Kingdom in Europe, supported by a Council of Elders of all the represented tribes. For a long time the Noricans enjoyed independence under this rule and carried on commerce with the Romans. In fact, from about 170 BCE the Noricans enjoyed the status of hospitum publicum with Rome (National hospitality, or friends and allies of Rome).

In the latter part of the 2nd Century BCE, the Taurisci tribe would call upon Rome for help against the migrating Germanic tribes, the Cimbri and the Teutones. Within the general proximity of Noricum, Consul Papirius Carbo led the Roman army to a crushing defeat at the hands of these Germanic tribes in 113 BCE. The victorious tribes continued to move west through Gaul and avoided Italia for another 10 years, but in 103 BCE, after other considerable victories their return to the region posed a serious threat to Rome. Roman superiority would be established, however, when Gaius Marius defeated the Teutones at Aquae Sextiae and Q. Lutatius Catulus defeated the Cimbri at Vercellae in 102 and 101 BCE respectively

country was mountainous and the soil poor, but it was rich in iron, and supplied material for the factories, forges and smithies in Pannonia, Moesia and northern Italia. The Norici, a Celtic tribe along the Danube, were among the world's first and greatest steel smiths. Noric Steel was famous throughout the empire, and a sword of this fine material and design was considered a veritable treasure in the time of Augustus. Other inhabitants were more apt to cattle-breeding than to agriculture, although it is probable that the Romans, by draining the marshes and cutting down timber and by increasing fertility, brought more farming to the region. Gold and salt were also found in considerable quantities. The plant called saliunca (the wild or Celtic nard) grew in abundance, and was used as a perfume.




***********

With Dealing with the Etruscan Leauge...are the rich Iron deposits enough for Etruscan annexation or assimilation? Would the Etruscans stay idly by as ab rather wealthy Celtic Provience stand by their gates...and being in much closer proximity than Galatia...Could influence the Gauls of the west to unite against the Carthaginans and Etruscans?

[Historico]

The original population of Noricum (mostly modern day Austria) consisted of Illyrians, who after the great emigration of the Gauls became subordinate to various Celtic tribes. It is in Noricum that we first hear of almost all the Celtic invasions, and was the starting-point of the attacks upon Italia in the early Roman Republic.

In approximately 200 BCE, an alliance of 13 of these tribes established the first Celtic Kingdom in Europe, supported by a Council of Elders of all the represented tribes. For a long time the Noricans enjoyed independence under this rule and carried on commerce with the Romans. In fact, from about 170 BCE the Noricans enjoyed the status of hospitum publicum with Rome (National hospitality, or friends and allies of Rome).

In the latter part of the 2nd Century BCE, the Taurisci tribe would call upon Rome for help against the migrating Germanic tribes, the Cimbri and the Teutones. Within the general proximity of Noricum, Consul Papirius Carbo led the Roman army to a crushing defeat at the hands of these Germanic tribes in 113 BCE. The victorious tribes continued to move west through Gaul and avoided Italia for another 10 years, but in 103 BCE, after other considerable victories their return to the region posed a serious threat to Rome. Roman superiority would be established, however, when Gaius Marius defeated the Teutones at Aquae Sextiae and Q. Lutatius Catulus defeated the Cimbri at Vercellae in 102 and 101 BCE respectively

country was mountainous and the soil poor, but it was rich in iron, and supplied material for the factories, forges and smithies in Pannonia, Moesia and northern Italia. The Norici, a Celtic tribe along the Danube, were among the world's first and greatest steel smiths. Noric Steel was famous throughout the empire, and a sword of this fine material and design was considered a veritable treasure in the time of Augustus. Other inhabitants were more apt to cattle-breeding than to agriculture, although it is probable that the Romans, by draining the marshes and cutting down timber and by increasing fertility, brought more farming to the region. Gold and salt were also found in considerable quantities. The plant called saliunca (the wild or Celtic nard) grew in abundance, and was used as a perfume.




***********

With Dealing with the Etruscan Leauge...are the rich Iron deposits enough for Etruscan annexation or assimilation? Would the Etruscans stay idly by as ab rather wealthy Celtic Provience stand by their gates...and being in much closer proximity than Galatia...Could influence the Gauls of the west to unite against the Carthaginans and Etruscans?


Hello, Is anbody going to tackle my questions

[Historico]

Also, you never really discussed about what happened to Brennus the Celt who almost sacked Rome in 390 BCE? Does he cross in to Italy or did he retire back into Gaul? Maybe he could have relized the potential of his celtic peoples an unite them in Gaul...?

[Historico]

Or Robert you could simply wait to have Vercingetorix unite them around 50 BCE so you won't have to make any previous changes to the earlier segments of the TL.

[Historico]

ok Robert...It's been about a month since your last update on any of the Tl's...Just give us some input on when this is due.

[robertp6165]

c. 250 BC--The Parni, a Scythian tribe from the region north of the Jaxartes River, move
south into Parthia. In India, Buddhists carve the first cave temples (Lomas Rishi).

249 BC--Agron comes to the throne of Illyria, which had been united under his father,
King Pleuratus, about two decades earlier. Under his rule, Illyria will rise to become a
great power, at least for a brief time, playing a pivotal role in the struggle for power
between Macedon and the Achaean League which will occupy most of the latter half of
the Third Century, B.C.

247 BC--Arsaces becomes ruler of the Parni, founding the Arsacid Dynasty.

245 BC--Aratos of Sicyon becomes Strategos of the Achaean League for the first time.
He will hold this post, with brief interruptions, for most of the next three decades. During
this time he will work toward the destruction of the power of Macedon and the
unification of all the Greek polei under the banner of the Achaean League.

246 BC--King Antiochus II of Lydia and Cappadocia is poisoned by his wife, Laodice.
He is succeeded by his son by Laodice, who reigns as King Seleucus II. Seleucus is a
weak individual, and it is not long before he is openly challenged by his younger brother,
Antiochus Hierax. Laodice will throw her support behind her younger son before too
long, and the Seleucid kingdom will fall into civil war. Also in this year, King Ptolemy II
of Egypt dies, and is succeeded by his son, who reigns as King Ptolemy III.

240 BC--Death of King Hamurabbi II of Babylon. He is succeeded by his son, who
reigns as King Nebuchadnezzar IV. Also in this year, the Etruscan League votes to admit
the Marsi, Paeligni, Marrucini and Vestini as members into the League. All of Italy,
except the Greek-held areas in the far south, is under the rule of the Etruscan League.

239 BC--King Nebuchadnezzar IV of Babylon signs a treaty of alliance with King
Ptolemy III of Egypt. Seeing the chaos in Asia Minor as the Seleucid Kingdom falls into
civil war, the two kingdoms begin preparing for war against the Seleucids. Also in this
year, King Antigonus II Gonatas of Macedon dies, and is succeeded by his son, who
reigns as King Demetrius II.

238 BC--The Parni, under Arsaces, seize control of the district of Astavene in northern
Parthia.

237-235 BC--Undeclared naval war between Carthage and the Etruscan League in the
western Mediterranean. Beginning in 237 BC, Carthage takes a more aggressive stance
versus Etruscan traders in what she considers her sphere of influence, and begins seizing
Etruscan ships on the high seas. In response, the Etruscans begin seizing Carthaginian
ships which venture into Etruscan waters. There are several clashes between Etruscan
and Carthaginian warships as a result, and it seems that an all-out war is inevitable. But
cooler heads prevail, and the two powers agree on a treaty in which each recognizes the
right of the other to trade with neutral powers in the western Mediterranean, while
recognizing the exclusive rights of each power to trade in certain ports. While the treaty
mainly favors Carthage, who gains many more “exclusive” ports than the Etruscans do,
the Etruscans do gain one significant plum...the exclusive right to trade at the Greek port
of Massilia, in southern Gaul. The Etruscans thus gain unimpeded access to the tin and
amber of northern Europe and Britain, as well as other valuable items.

238-230 BC--The Third War of the Diadochi: In 238 BC, hoping to take advantage of the
civil war between Seleucus II and his brother, Antiochus Hierax, in Asia Minor, King
Ptolemy III of Egypt and King Nebuchadnezzar IV of Babylon declare war on the
Seleucid kingdom. Egyptian and Babylonian armies move north into Asia Minor, and
advance rapidly against weak Seleucid resistance. By the end of 238 BC Antiochus
Hierax has been defeated and killed, and Seleucus II is under siege inside his capital of
Seleucia (the former city of Mazaca on the Halys River).

At this point, King Demetrius II of Macedon, who has no desire to see the Ptolemies of
Egypt become supreme in Asia Minor, declares war on Egypt and lands an invasion force
in the Troad in early 237 BC. He advances rapidly to the relief of Seleucus II at Mazaca,
but his army is defeated by the combined Egyptian and Babylonian hosts outside the city
and is forced to retreat to Sardis. Mazaca falls later that year, and King Seleucus II is
captured and put to death, ending the Seleucid Dynasty.

However, this does not end the war, as King Demetrius of Macedon remains in Asia
Minor for the next five years, fighting a see-saw campaign against the Egyptians and
Babylonians for control of the lands west of the Halys River. Despite repeated attempts,
King Ptolemy’s navy is unable to defeat that of Demetrius, and the Macedonians are able
to maintain their lines of supply and reinforcement.

The war would probably have gone on for a few more years, but in 231 BC, Aratos of
Sicyon brought the Achaean League into the war against Macedon, and King Demetrius
quickly sued for peace with the Egyptians and Babylonians. Those powers, which were
by now quite exhausted after almost a decade of war, accepted, and in 230 BC, the three
kings agreed on a treaty ending the war. King Demetrius of Macedon retains control of
Asia Minor north of the Taurus Mountains and west of the Halys River. Egypt takes the
former Seleucid lands east of the line of the Halys and the Taurus Mountains and west of
the Euphrates River. Babylon takes the remainder east of the Euphrates.

231-230 BC--War between Macedon and the Achaean League. Aratos of Sicyon,
Strategos of the Achaean League, decided to try to take advantage of Macedon’s
engagement in Anatolia during the Third War of the Diadochi by declaring war and
invading Macedon in 231 BC. King Demetrius of Macedon, however, quickly concluded
a peace ending the war with Egypt and Babylon and brought his army home to deal with
the invading Greeks. Demetrius also made an alliance with King Agron of Illyria, and the
Illyro-Macedonian army decisively defeated the Achaean League’s forces outside of Pella
in 230 BC. Aratos of Sicyon sued for peace following this defeat, and Demetrius
imposed harsh terms, demanding that the Achaean League acknowledge the overlordship
of Macedon and pay a heavy indemnity. Having little choice, the Achaean League
accepts these terms.

230 BC onward--Following the Third War of the Diadochi and the destruction of the
Seleucid dynasty, a rough equilibrium settles on the eastern Mediterranean. Egypt and
Macedon are both absorbed by troubles close to home, and neither has much power to
attempt to interfere in the lands claimed by the other. Babylon, too, will experience an
interlude of peace under rulers who are much more interested in building than in
expansion.

230 BC--King Agron of Illyria, celebrating his recent victory, in alliance with King
Demetrius of Macedon, over the Achaean League, drinks a huge quantity of wine and
dies of alcohol poisoning. His son, Pinnes, is a mere infant. Agron’s second wife, Teuta,
rules as regent. Under her rule, local tribal chieftains will once again reassert their
power, and Illyria will gradually fall apart.

235 BC--The Parni, under Prince Tiridates (brother of King Arsaces), seize the remainder
of Parthia, deposing the native Parthian dynasty. They will spend the remainder of this
century consolidating their rule in Parthia.

229 BC--King Demetrius II of Macedon is killed in battle with the Dardanians, a wild
tribe living north of Macedon. His son, Philip, being only nine years old, the rulership of
Macedon is taken by a cousin of Demetrius, Antigonus Doson, who rules initially as
regent but will, within two years, depose Philip and take the throne for himself.

228 BC--Aratos of Sicyon, Strategos of the Achaean League, has been scheming to end
the Macedonian domination of the Achaean League since the end of the recent war.
Seeing an opportunity with the death of King Demetrius II, Aratos forms alliances with
Queen Teuta of Illyria and the Celts of Galatia against Macedon.

225-221 BC--The War of Aratos: In 225 BC, the alliance of the Achaean League, Illyria,
and the Celts of Galatia declare war on Macedon. King Antigonus III Doson of Macedon
fights valiantly, allied with King Pyrrhus III of Epirus, against the combined armies of the
three neighboring powers, but to no avail. He is killed in 221 BC in battle against the
Illyrians, and Macedon is cast down. The Achaean League occupies the Greek cities
which had been ruled by Macedon, and large sections are annexed by Illyria and Galatia.
A Macedonian rump state, ruled by a puppet imposed by the Achaean League, is all that
is left of the once-proud Macedonian nation. Meanwhile, Philip IV, deposed son of
Demetrius II, flees to Macedon’s Anatolian possessions and establishes himself there.

222 BC--Death of King Nebuchadnezzar IV of Babylon. He is succeeded by his son, who
reigns as King Sargon III (Akkadian King Sargon being the first, and Sargon II of Assyria
being the second). Sargon will occupy his reign with great building projects in Babylon
and other cities of his empire, and the military power of Babylon will gradually begin to
fall apart during his reign as a result of a policy of “benign neglect.” In the short term,
this has little impact as Babylon’s neighbors are also in a state of weakness. In the long
term, it will prove disastrous. Also in this year, King Ptolemy III of Egypt dies, and is
succeeded by his son, who reigns as King Ptolemy IV. With the accession of Ptolemy IV,
the power of Egypt also begins a slow, steady decline as the Ptolemaic kings come
increasingly under the domination of corrupt court favorites who loot the treasury and
direct Egypt’s foreign and domestic policy ineptly for their own aggrandizement.

221 BC onward--In the aftermath of the War of Aratos, the victorious powers all find that
the lack of a direct Macedonian threat removes the urge toward unity and allows
centrifugal forces within their midst to begin tearing them apart. Queen Teuta of Illyria,
as mentioned elsewhere, is soon faced with increasing challenges from local Illyrian tribal
chieftains, who increasingly assert their own power over that of the Queen. The
assassination of Aratos of Sicyon in 220 BC, shortly after the end of the victorious war,
will lead to the breakup of the Achaean League by 210 BC. Only Galatia maintains a sort
of stability. The loose governmental system of Galatia...which is ruled by a committee of
three Tetrarchs who are elected by a Council of the Tribes which meets bi-annually,
proves resilient, and Galatia remains unified, although there are brief outbreaks of warfare
between the constituent tribes of the Galatian League. But Galatia is the exception to the
rule, and by the end of the century, a power vacuum exists in the Balkans which will
prove inviting to outside powers. It will be only a matter of time before a conqueror
arrives to exploit it.

221 BC--King Antigonus II Doson of Macedon is killed in battle against the Illryians.
Philip IV, son of Demetrius II who had been deposed by Antigonus Doson a few years
earlier, ascends the throne, but has to flee into exile in Anatolia. Philip will work toward
the restoration of the power of Macedon, but is handicapped by the lack of sufficient
resources in his remaining provinces and so is not immediately able to make war on his
neighbors. But given time, that might change...and Philip is a patient man.

220 BC--In India, the Maurya dynasty under Ashoka's son Bindusara expands to control
almost all of India.

219 BC--With the weakening of Illyrian royal power, Illyrian piracy in the Adriatic is
reaching epidemic levels, seriously impacting Etruscan trade in the region. In 219 BC,
the Etruscan League carries out a punitive expedition to Illyria in an effort to stamp out
Illyrian piracy in the Adriatic. The Etruscans defeat the Illryian fleet and burn several
seaport towns which serve as pirate havens. The Illyrian pirates are scattered...for a
while.

218 BC--Death of King Arsaces I of Parthia. He is succeeded by his brother, who reigns
as King Tiridates I.

211 BC--King Tiridates I of Parthia dies, and is succeeded by his son, who reigns as
King Arsaces II. King Pinnes of Illyria comes of age and assumes the throne of Illyria.
Unfortunately, the degeneration of royal authority which had begun under Queen Teuta
has progressed too far to reverse easily, and Pinnes will be a king with very little power.

207 BC--Second punitive expedition by the Etruscan League against Illyrian pirate bases
in the Adriatic.

204 BC--King Ptolemy IV of Egypt dies, and is succeeded by his son, who reigns as King
Ptolemy V. The decline of Egyptian power continues under Ptolemy’s inept rule.

201-195 BC--Former Macedonian king Philip IV takes advantage of the power vacuum in
the Balkan Peninsula and invades with the aim of re-establishing his rule over Macedon.
The disunited Greek polei and the weakened Illyrians and Galatians are powerless to
intervene, and the puppet ruler installed in Macedon is captured and executed. Philip
campaigns in the region until he has restored Macedon to it’s full former territorial extent
and re-established Macedonian hegemony over the surrounding states.

200 BC--The Andhras rebel against Mauryan rule and occupy the Indian east coast.

[robertp6165]

Also, you never really discussed about what happened to Brennus the Celt who almost sacked Rome in 390 BCE? Does he cross in to Italy or did he retire back into Gaul? Maybe he could have relized the potential of his celtic peoples an unite them in Gaul...?

Brennus the Celt was a chieftain of one of the Celtic tribes which had settled in northern Italy north of the Po River. He was defeated by the Etruscan League. Once defeated he retired north of the Po River. He never united the Celtic tribes there, or elsewhere.

[robertp6165]

The original population of Noricum (mostly modern day Austria) consisted of Illyrians, who after the great emigration of the Gauls became subordinate to various Celtic tribes. It is in Noricum that we first hear of almost all the Celtic invasions, and was the starting-point of the attacks upon Italia in the early Roman Republic.

In approximately 200 BCE, an alliance of 13 of these tribes established the first Celtic Kingdom in Europe, supported by a Council of Elders of all the represented tribes. For a long time the Noricans enjoyed independence under this rule and carried on commerce with the Romans. In fact, from about 170 BCE the Noricans enjoyed the status of hospitum publicum with Rome (National hospitality, or friends and allies of Rome).

In the latter part of the 2nd Century BCE, the Taurisci tribe would call upon Rome for help against the migrating Germanic tribes, the Cimbri and the Teutones. Within the general proximity of Noricum, Consul Papirius Carbo led the Roman army to a crushing defeat at the hands of these Germanic tribes in 113 BCE. The victorious tribes continued to move west through Gaul and avoided Italia for another 10 years, but in 103 BCE, after other considerable victories their return to the region posed a serious threat to Rome. Roman superiority would be established, however, when Gaius Marius defeated the Teutones at Aquae Sextiae and Q. Lutatius Catulus defeated the Cimbri at Vercellae in 102 and 101 BCE respectively

country was mountainous and the soil poor, but it was rich in iron, and supplied material for the factories, forges and smithies in Pannonia, Moesia and northern Italia. The Norici, a Celtic tribe along the Danube, were among the world's first and greatest steel smiths. Noric Steel was famous throughout the empire, and a sword of this fine material and design was considered a veritable treasure in the time of Augustus. Other inhabitants were more apt to cattle-breeding than to agriculture, although it is probable that the Romans, by draining the marshes and cutting down timber and by increasing fertility, brought more farming to the region. Gold and salt were also found in considerable quantities. The plant called saliunca (the wild or Celtic nard) grew in abundance, and was used as a perfume.




***********

With Dealing with the Etruscan Leauge...are the rich Iron deposits enough for Etruscan annexation or assimilation? Would the Etruscans stay idly by as ab rather wealthy Celtic Provience stand by their gates...and being in much closer proximity than Galatia...Could influence the Gauls of the west to unite against the Carthaginans and Etruscans?

The Etruscans are much more interested in trade than in conquest. The rise of a powerful Celtic kingdom in Noricum could pose a threat to the Etruscans which might lead to war, however. The bellicose Celts might very well decide that the Etruscan lands look appetizing and decide to invade, for example. Also, as for whether it will influence unity among the Gauls to the west, I don't know. There are already some forces there that are aiming in that direction...for example, the "Greek"city of Massilia is actually, by this time, more a "Graeco-Celtic" city than a true Greek Polei anymore, and the tribes of southern Gaul influenced by it are probably going to form a league in the next century.

[Historico]

an great end to a turmotulos century...Although I am dissapointed to see the end of the Secluids so quickly it will be interesting to see the Parthians take advantage of the Eastern Med weakend state and make an viavble Empire. Has the Magonoids been overthrown in Carthage yet? And will Hispania become an Carthaginan territory by the end of the Next Century? Could there been an possible clash between Carthage and Ptolmeic Egypt? And Will the Hasmoenean's be able to revolt against an stronger Ptolemeic Kingdom? Will the Galatains be able to take an advantage over the weakend sate of the Balkans and conqer it? And will the Etruscan league be strong enough to take down Illyria?

[G.Bone]

Good to see you around Robert.

[robertp6165]

an great end to a turmotulos century...Although I am dissapointed to see the end of the Secluids so quickly it will be interesting to see the Parthians take advantage of the Eastern Med weakend state and make an viavble Empire.

yes, the Parthians are probably going to do somewhat better than in OTL.

Has the Magonoids been overthrown in Carthage yet?

Yes, quite some time ago. The Carthaginians are a Republic and have been for at least a couple of centuries.

And will Hispania become an Carthaginan territory by the end of the Next Century?

Yes.

Could there been an possible clash between Carthage and Ptolmeic Egypt?

Possibly. Although their interests don't normally clash...Egypt tends to focus on the eastern end of the Mediterranean, while Carthage is focused on the west.

And Will the Hasmoenean's be able to revolt against an stronger Ptolemeic Kingdom?

Whether there will be an analog to the Maccabean revolt in the ATL depends on whether the Ptolemies decide to desecrate the Temple and try to stamp out the Jewish religion. I don't really see the Ptolemies doing that, as they were generally tolerant when they ruled Palestine in OTL.

Will the Galatains be able to take an advantage over the weakend state of the Balkans and conquer it?

No. Indeed, in the final years of the Third Century, BC, Philip IV established Macedonian hegemony over all the Balkan region, including Illyria and Galatia. Macedon is the big dog in the Balkans right now.

And will the Etruscan league be strong enough to take down Illyria?

They would easily be strong enough to take Illyria down, if they decided to do it. But they are not interested in acquiring territory outside of Italy right now, and they have no wish to have to garrison Illyria. Probably they will launch more punitive expeditions against Illyrian piracy, and possibly support a strong Illyrian monarch who can control the local pirate chieftains.

[robertp6165]

Good to see you around Robert.

Thank you...it's good to be back. :) By the way, I am working on the next installment of the Hittite timeline now, and will probably have that posted by the end of the week. So there is more to come. ;)

[G.Bone]

Yay! Well- it's glad that your writing skills are working.

BTW- how do you keep your talent going just on a normal basis?

[Historico]

One Question, we have seemed to have missed are what are the role of the Barca's in TTL. Does Hamlicar distinguish himself as an impressive General in the Quasi war between the Etruscan Leauge in 237-235 BC? Is there a reason for a Mercenary War to break out in Carthage after the Quasi War? And With his Popularity and lack of a War allow Hamlicar to reinstate the Monarchy over Carthage or atlest Sufete for life? And most of all, how would young man of Hannibal grow up raised in a world in Rome and with Carthage still the dominant power in the western Mediterranien?

[Kidblast]

When comparing the Chinese and Roman empires, keep in mind that in the Western world the only country that can compete with China in terms of historical heritage is Egypt. Imagine if you will an Egypt the size of Europe (and then some) that would have maintained political and cultural continuity until the early 20th century: that's China.

Perhaps the Jews too. King Soloman and Confucius were contemporaries.

[Marce Camitlnas]

The Etruscan Religion was, like Christianity and Judaism, a revealed religion. An account of the revelation is given by Cicero(On Divination 2.50) . One day, says the legend, in a field near the river Marta in Teruria, a strange event occurred...

Teruria = Etruria

[wiking]

Any chance this can be continued?