1493 Retro Events prior to 1510

[Glen]

For events between 1493 and 1509.

Previous thread here.

[The Sicilian]

Naples
1503: Giuffre Borgia agrees to give the title Duke of Romagna to Alphonso's eldest, Ferdinand. In return Giuffre marries one of Alphonso's relatives.

Me and John worked this out.

[Glen]

If there are events in the locked threads that you still need to discuss something on, post the discussion here, please.

[DuQuense]

1506 Spring
The Royal Shipyard launches It's first Indian style Dhow, followed a week later by a Maldives Dhoni.
By the end of the year, the first warships will be complete, enlarged [3~4 times the size of traditionally] Dhows with internal bracing needed to mount small cannons [Culivens & Demi-Culivens] except they don't have any cannons yet.

I am changing this to slow it down a little

The Royal Shipyard launches It's first Indian style Dhow, followed a week later by a Maldives Dhoni. these are basically enlarged Rowboats.
With a maximum cargo of 10~15 tons. in the larger Dhows, and 2~5 in the Dhoni.
By the end of the Year, they will be carrying small cargo's around the Red Sea, and north to Egypt.
Between the various Indian, Mediterrian, and the three north European Shipwrights , they were able to Hire* Ethiopia continues development of Galleys and other larger ships.
*[England forbid it's shipwrights from leaving by Royal degree].

[KineticBots]

I was about to post these in the other thread but Glen locked it (although it isn't really going to matter because they won't affect anyone else).

Japan: Domestic events 1500-1509

1500: Death of Emperor Go-tsuchimikado. He is succeeded by Emperor Go-kashiwabara. By now the imperial court is in such financial ruin that they can't even afford a burial for the late Emperor befitting his divine status.


1502: The allied armies of the Akita clan of Dewa province and Nambu clan of Mutsu province reach the northern shores of Honshu. The Ainu have by now been almost completely pushed out of Honshu and have been forced to flee to Ezo (OTL now Hokkaido). To guarantee that the Ainu will pose no threat in the future, the Akita clan decide to establish outposts on the OTL Shimokita and Tsugaru peninsulars. They are simply named Shimokita and Tsugaru.

1503: The Nambu clan establish a small outpost on the southern tip of the Oshima peninsular of Ezo, and explore northwards, encountering many far less hostile tribes of Ainu. Later that year, the Nambu clan complete a coastal survey of Ezo. They also encounter but do not explore the Chishima islands, and another island, Kitaezo (now OTL Sakhalin), previously thought to be a peninsular.

1504: Nambu ships complete a coastal survey of the Chishima islands and Kitaezo.

Mutsu province, home to the Wakamatsu clan in the south and the Nambu clan in the north, is divided between those two clans into two provinces - Muzen in the south (Wakamatsu) and Mugo in the north (Nambu). The Akita then cede Shimokita and Tsugaru and return to their home province.

1505: Fishing operations begin in waters off Ezo.

The Nambu begin trading with the Ainu of Ezo.

1506: Whaling operations begin in waters off the Chishima islands.

1508: Ashikaga Yoshizumi is replaced as Shogun by Ashikaga Yoshitane (who was Shogun from 1490-1493), who had secured the support of a powerful daimyo from Yamaguchi, Ouchi Yoshioki. Yoshizumi's puppeteer Hosokawa Masamoto was killed a year earlier

Pirates ransack Tsushima city, while bakufu trade ships bound for Korea are in port. They manage to escape to the Asian mainland with a huge bounty of precious goods. Newly restored Shogun Ashikaga Yoshitane, intent on preserving his seat of power and being seen as a powerful ruler, declares a 'war on piracy and pirates'. Unfortunately the bakufu has basically no navy. Fortunately, the clans of Kyushu and Chugoku have ships that they can commit to the campaign.

1509: The 'war on piracy' begins.


That's all for now.

Regards,
KineticBots

[Atom]

1493: Thupa inca dies. Wayna Qapac accedes to the throne. He begins consolidation which will last until about 1520.

1496: A khipumaynac (khipu scribe/reader) begins using the khipu to record not only numbers, or act as a mnemoic aids, but also as a word. There are a series of binary choices (6 of them) plus 24 possible colors, that together make up a word. Living in cuzco he quickly influnces the other scribes there and they also adopt this system. By 1500 over a hundred words are in use, most being important goods (potatoes, llamas, quinoa) and people to owe it to.

1509: The number of words in use has doubledd to two hundred , and the Inca is taking a very serious interest in this. One of his (many) sons, Washkar (I can't find his OTL pre-Inca name, so I will use his Inca name), who is a favorite of the inca, after Atawallpa and a few others, takes a serious interest in this and learns the khipu. He then begs the Inca to allow him to build a "library" and academy for khipumaynacs. The Inca agrees and construction begins.

[Psychomeltdown]

I seem to e a couple of days behind, but I'm catching up. :D
Anyway, this is the revised timeline i wrote up, it involves some discussion with DQ as to the going ons in India.

...



1495 John II dies and is succeeded by Manoel I as kind of Portugal.

1496 Manoel I marries Isabella of Asturias.

1497 Isabella of Asturias dies of due to miscarriage.

Decree to expel all Jews from Portugal is signed by King Manoel I. Upon the death of isabella of Asturias, the decree is pretty much forgotten. Though the signing of the decree in the first place allows for the church to begin making moves against the Jews in Portugal.

1500

Pedro Alvares Cabral sets sail for India, there are no problems in the voyage.

Bartholomeu Dias’ ship is not wrecked off the coast of the Cape of Good Hope.

Pedro Alvares Cabral, using his superior weapons and soldiers, manages to get a trading concessions out of the rulers of Sofala (Mozambique), Kilwa (Tanzania), and Melinde (Kenya).

Pedro Alvares Cabral arrives in India. The larger amount of ships allows for him to make demands upon the ports he arrives to. Calicut and Cochin accept trading agreements, but Calicut is displeased with the actions of the Portuguese while Cochin warmly welcomes the Portuguese.

Negotiations with England on the issue of a new wife for Manoel I come to a close as they agree that Manoel I will marry Margaret Tudor in 1502.

1501

Cabral returns to Portugal with 11 of his 13 ships. Richly laden and richly rewarded by King Manoel.

Calicut kills off or chases off the Portuguese left behind in Calicut to oversee Portuguese interests.

1502

Vasco De Gama sails with 25 warships to India, to keep control of the trading ports that Cabral has opened for the Portuguese.

De Gama sets up a fort at the harbor of Sofala, Kilwa, Mozambique, Melinde, and in Mogadishu. De Gama sacks the coastal city of Mombasa and builds a fort there. He also takes Zanzibar Island and claims it for Portugal.

Vasco De Gama forces Calicut to agree to renewed trading concessions, after smashing their fleet and bombarding their city. The ruler is forced to allow them to set up a factory and gives them land upon which they can set up a trading enclave. In time it becomes a heavily armed fortress.

King Manoel I begins expanding the shipyards and the size of Portugal’s trading fleet and navy.

King Manoel I marries Margaret Tudor of England.

Bartholomeu Diaz is sent to scout out the territories of the Spanish. He instead discovers Brazil and claims it for the Portuguese. He also reaches the Strait of Magellan before turning back. He is proclaimed the greatest explorer in Portugal.

1503

Anti Jewish riots rage in Lisbon, at the behest of Catholic priests, killing 3000 Jews. Manoel I stamps out the riots and executes the leaders. This definitely does not sit well with the Catholic Church.

Cochin is also added to the ports that the Portuguese now trade at. They are once again warmly received by the local ruler and they manage to buy some land upon which they set up a small fortress and warehouses. This will be the main area from which they will work for some years to come.

Vasco De Gama continues to reinforce and expand Portuguese trading ports in East Africa and India. He sets up a fortifications on the island of Angediva, he crushes Arab shipping and pirates among the trade ships sent from the Muslim kingdoms.

Vasco De Gama returns to Portugal. Due to his great success in India and his expanding of Portuguese interests, Manoel I entitles Vasco De Gama to be the first viceroy in India. He accepts.

1504

More anti-Jewish Riots pop up in and around Lisbon and other cities, most encouraged by Catholic priests. The Church is putting heavy pressure on Manoel to expel the Jews, but it’s more becoming a fight for who has the most power, the King or the Church than the issue over Jews continuing to live in Portugal.

Margaret of Portugal gives birth to a healthy baby boy, named Manoel II.

Vasco De Gama and 30 ships leave for India, with orders to solidify Portuguese claims and to create a monopoly. He also takes a long a young squadron captain named. Alfonso De Albuquerque, later to be known as the De Gama’s Mastiff for his willingness to go and fight where De Gama points.

Vasco De Gama solidifies and strengthens forts and harbors along Eastern Africa.

1505

Manoel I and the Church leaders disagreements finally come to a head. Maneol, although a pious Catholic, cannot tolerate the continued interference by the priests and their continual rousing up riots and causing damage. He cuts funding to the church and exiles the leaders of those that oppose him, others he executes. The executed and exiled people’s lands are confiscated.

Vasco De Gama continues to fortify his positions in India, Calicut and Cochin. Explorations are made along the India Coast. Sri Lanka is discovered and trade is set up with the local rulers.

De Albuquerque is charged with putting down rebellions in East Africa. He does so brutally and efficiently. He also is charged with pirating Arab/Muslim trading vessels, which he also does efficiently.

1506

Manoel I enacts strict laws that are designed to curb the Church’s power in Portugal. The lack of funding has already dried up a lot of the political activeness of the priests, but it’s not enough for Manoel who’s whispered to be becoming more like his predecessor John II, which terrifies the Nobility into siding with him.

Margaret of Portugal gives birth to her second child, a son named Henrique.

De Albuquerque is sent back to Portugal with treasure laden ships.

Trade is opened between Portugal and the Bharata Empire, mainly taking place out of Diu in Gujarat.

1507

Manoel begins great works, building roads, canals, and shipyards using the incoming wealth from the Far East. He increases the size of the army and the size of the navy, he also begins sending out more nobles into Africa to oversee the construction of forts and harbors and extract tribute from the conquered tribes and cities in Africa.

De Albuquerque returns from India. He is immediately sent back with orders for De Gama to start taking control of Muslim ports and cities. De Albuquerque returns with 30 ships and hundreds of troops.

Margaret of Portugal gives birth to her third child, a girl named Beatrice.

1508

De Albuquerque is sent to conqueror the Island of Hormuz, with 20 ships and 1000 troops. There’s a fierce battle, but in the end the Portuguese manage to take the island. They begin setting up a fort there. De Albuquerque is there for most of the year, fighting back counterattacks by the local rulers.

Lorenco de Almeida is sent to explore up and down the eastern coast of India, they come across Sri Lanka and set up trading relations with the Kingdom of Kotte and attack the Kingdom of Jaffna, looting it’s port cities. Portuguese ships manage to reach Bengal later that year.

Manoel I sends settlers to the Cape of Good Hope, the increasing travel and the growing power of the Western African Nations are becoming something of a threat. The city of Porto Manoel is established.

1509

Manoel I sends out ships to explore the lands discovered by Diaz in 1502.

De Gama sends out ships to a place called Malacca. The Portuguese under Lorenco De Almeida discover Malacca and tell tales of the major trading going on there. A captain named Ferdinand Magellan dies in Malacca after taking ill. Lorenco De Almeida explores in and around Malacca for the next year.

20 ships under Francisco De Almeida arrive to reinforce De Gama.

De Albuquerque successfully returns from fortifying and laying claim to Hormuz.

De Gama strikes a deal with the Vijayanagara Empire as one of it’s provinces rises up in rebellion. They’ll provide horses and artillery for the Vijayanagara in return for Goa. De Gama sends De Albuquerque and De Almeida to Yemen to raid it for what’s needed and pirate among the Arab ships.

De Albuquerque launches an attack upon Aden, in Yemen. After brutal fighting the city is taken, but not for long as reinforcements manage to drive the Portuguese out, but not after taking what they came for.

De Almeida ravages the Arab shipping along the Yemen and Oman coasts.

1510

Manoel I makes a pilgrimage to see the Pope, to make sure the Pope knows his piety and that the occurrences with the Church of Portugal are matters that only relate to Portugal.

Margaret Portugal gives birth to her fourth child, a boy named Francisco.

Margaret of Portugal also begins actively pushing for more hospitals and universities in Portugal.

De Gama takes possession of Goa, from the Vijayanagara Empire. He makes it the capitol of the State of India.

Lorenco De Almeida returns from Malacca and the surrounding areas, he tells the tales of the rich trade and the wealth that flows through there.

De Gama sends de Albuquerque and Lorenco de Almeida back to Malacca, to take the city. He leaves with a hefty 26 ships and 1600 troops.

Francisco De Almeida is sent back to ravage the Yemen and Oman coasts.

Trade is opened with the Bengal.

[Tom Veil]

1505
Trade is opened with the Bharata Empire, mainly taking place our of Dui in Gujarat.


I would change this event to the following:

1506 October: Trade is opened between Portugal and the Bharata Empire, mainly taking place out of Diu in Gujarat.

[Psychomeltdown]

I would change this event to the following:

1506 October: Trade is opened between Portugal and the Bharata Empire, mainly taking place out of Diu in Gujarat.

Done and Done.

[The Sicilian]

1499: A school for engineering, history, philosphy, law and natural philosphy is established in Messina.

1500: Prince Alphonso of Naples has a boy with his wife Maria Christina. He is named Philip.

1507: Prince Ferdinand of Naples and Prince Piero of Rossano are killed by assassination. It remains undiscovered whom had ordered it. Prince Alphonso, the ambassador to Ndongo, is first in line to the throne. Alphonso inherits his borthers title as Duke of Romagna

The Sicilian expedition encounters several groups that are hostile to the Mexica.

1508: The Neapolitan expedition is forced to return to their base at Messina (Havana). They leave behind several dozen soldiers and priests at Forte Altavilla.

1509: Ships from Messina land on the Ferrantean (Mississippi) river delta.

Note: I use Sicilian and Neapolitan interchangably.

[AJNolte]

1501: Columbus lands at Hispaniola, and conquers it, claiming the entirety for Spain.
1502-4: Columbus begins extending Spanish power throughout the Caribbean, claiming Cuba, Puerto Rico, Trinidad, Jamaica and the Bahamas.
1505: Columbus sends expeditions to Florida and Central America.
1507. As per the treaty with their Catholic Majesties and the Pope, The island of Puerto Rico is granted as a papal fief.
1507: The first colony in Florida is established at Saint Augustine (same location as OTL).
1508: Columbus dies, briefly throwing the Spanish Caribbean into turmoil. Though his son is quickly able to reestablish authority over the fractious colonists, expeditions beyond the Caribbean are temporarily curtailed.

[Glen]

Interesting to see what the Spanish do about the Neapolitans in Cuba. So far you two have had pretty warm relations. Wonder how this should play out. Can you two come together to write some events regarding that?

[Glen]

England:

1499: The Bristol-Norasia Company is formed and obtains a royal charter from King Henry VIIth to exploit the lucrative fur trade between Norasia and England.

[AJNolte]

Interesting to see what the Spanish do about the Neapolitans in Cuba. So far you two have had pretty warm relations. Wonder how this should play out. Can you two come together to write some events regarding that?


I didn't see that they were there. Can someone direct me to the posts re: Neapolitan expedition? How did they get to both Cuba and the Straights of Magellan in one trip?

Assuming they're in Cuba:
Yes, we can work something out.

[The Sicilian]

Yes, we established a settlement near OTL Havana named Messina. We have two expeditions. One to Cental America and one to South America.

[Glen]

See below.

Oh, and while I am looking at it, Messiniano, there isn't really this idea of 'science' yet. More natural philosophy. No one has even imagined economics as a science yet, much less teaching it.

1499: A school for economics, history, philosphy, law and science is established in Messina. Isaac Abravanel teaches economics.

1500: Prince Alphonso of Naples has a boy with his wife Maria Christina. He is named Philip.

1507: Prince Ferdinand of Naples and Prince Piero of Rossano are killed by assassination. It remains undiscovered whom had ordered it. Prince Alphonso, the ambassador to Ndongo, is first in line to the throne. Alphonso inherits his borthers title as Duke of Romagna

The Sicilian expedition encounters several groups that are hostile to the Mexica.

1508: The Neapolitan expedition is forced to return to their base at Messina (Havana). They leave behind several dozen soldiers and priests at Forte Altavilla.

1509: Ships from Messina land on the Ferrantean (Mississippi) river delta.

Note: I use Sicilian and Neapolitan interchangably.

I didn't see that they were there. Can someone direct me to the posts re: Neapolitan expedition? How did they get to both Cuba and the Straights of Magellan in one trip?

Assuming they're in Cuba:
Yes, we can work something out.

[The Sicilian]

See below.

Oh, and while I am looking at it, Messiniano, there isn't really this idea of 'science' yet. More natural philosophy. No one has even imagined economics as a science yet, much less teaching it.
My bad.
If people didnt teach economics in schools, where did they learn it?

[Glen]

My bad.
If people didnt teach economics in schools, where did they learn it?

From their parents or on the fly.

[The Sicilian]

From their parents or on the fly.
Okay. Does anyone know if any of Isaac Abravanel's sons were economists, or at least into some porfession that deals with money? All of the sons that I found on Google are damn scholars and philosophers:mad:.

[AJNolte]

Okay. Does anyone know if any of Isaac Abravanel's sons were economists, or at least into some porfession that deals with money? All of the sons that I found on Google are damn scholars and philosophers:mad:.



Uh, actually, the first economists (as theorists anyway) were probably members of the Salamanca school, who wrote tracts defending usury and, somewhat later, a theory of money much like Molina's. As the Salamancans are going to be a good bit more prominent ITTL, just wait about fifty years and you can add economics to your cariculum.

[Tom Veil]

Uh, actually, the first economists (as theorists anyway) were probably members of the Salamanca school, who wrote tracts defending usury and, somewhat later, a theory of money much like Molina's. As the Salamancans are going to be a good bit more prominent ITTL, just wait about fifty years and you can add economics to your cariculum.
Provided, of course, that Salamanca continues to develop on that track.

[Glen]

Okay. Does anyone know if any of Isaac Abravanel's sons were economists, or at least into some porfession that deals with money? All of the sons that I found on Google are damn scholars and philosophers:mad:.

Scholars and philosophers are this time's scientists and professors...

[The Sicilian]

Scholars and philosophers are this time's scientists and professors...
I mean religous scholars and philosophers. As in comentatos on the Torah. I need same damn moneymen!:D

[Glen]

I mean religous scholars and philosophers. As in comentatos on the Torah. I need same damn moneymen!:D

They were both.

[AJNolte]

Provided, of course, that Salamanca continues to develop on that track.

Since part of the reason I took Spain was to ensure that it did:
It will.
For a while anyway.

[Glen]

England:

1503 March: Sebastian Cabot departs for the first time as commander of the English Expedition, determined to complete the mission of his dead father. This time he intends to head south along the European and African coast before crossing the sea.

Ndongo:

1503 May: Sebastian Cabot's fleet pays a visit to top off supplies in Ndongo, delivering letters from King Henry VIIth and Prince Arthur to the Royal family of Ndongo.

South America:

1503 October: Sebastian Cabot's expedition sight land, begin heading south down the coast.

1503 November: Sebastian Cabot rounds straits of the Southern Continent and strikes out into the Arthurian Ocean.

Arthurian Ocean (Pacific):

1503 December: Sebastian Cabot lands on an island filled with massive Statues. He names it Giant Island.

1504 February: Sebastian Cabot's fleet lands in Tahiti. Near mutiny occurs when Cabot wants to press on from this hospitable land.

East Asia:

1504 April: Sebastian Cabot arrives in the Philippines, confirmed by an interpreter on board. A Cabot has finally reached Asia. He obtains directions to China.

China:

1504 May: Sebastian Cabot arrives in Southern China. His father's dream is fulfilled.

England:

1504 November: Sebastian Cabot returns to England to a hero's welcome. Though several ships have been lost to storms, the bulk of his ships remain intact and are laden with treasures of the Orient.

[The Sicilian]

1508: Having conflicting claims to the largest island in the Carribean, the kings of Spain and Naples sign a treaty to resolve the territorial issue. Naples would recieve the Western half (everything from Ciego de Ávila Province west) while spain would reviece the easter half. They two countries also agreed to send a joint exedition to the mainland south of the island (central America), which would become a Neapolitan sphere of influence. Naples, in return, would agree to allow the Spanish to plant colonies in Florida and the lands to the north.



OOC: The reason why I refered to Cuba as 'the Island' was because I don't know if it would still be called Cuba. Is it?

[Glen]

1508: Having conflicting claims to the largest island in the Carribean, the kings of Spain and Naples sign a treaty to resolve the territorial issue. Naples would recieve the Western half (everything from Ciego de Ávila Province west) while spain would reviece the easter half. They two countries also agreed to send a joint exedition to the mainland south of the island (central America), which would become a Neapolitan sphere of influence. Naples, in return, would agree to allow the Spanish to plant colonies in Florida and the lands to the north.

OOC: The reason why I refered to Cuba as 'the Island' was because I don't know if it would still be called Cuba. Is it?

Couple questions/thoughts. First, has AJ signed off on this? Second, AJ, if you have, how do you justify this rather uncharacteristic behavior by Spain this early. Third, even if you two agree, the language needs to be changed. Naples is in no position to allow Spain anything. Allow definitely needs to be altered.

[Psychomeltdown]

Couple questions/thoughts. First, has AJ signed off on this? Second, AJ, if you have, how do you justify this rather uncharacteristic behavior by Spain this early. Third, even if you two agree, the language needs to be changed. Naples is in no position to allow Spain anything. Allow definitely needs to be altered.

The question is:

How in the hell is Spain letting other nations set up colonies in it's claimed territories? Even if they're not outrightly settled or had a crew land on them and proclaim them Spanish, how is it that Spain for all it's greediness and all it's trying to grasp for power, does it let a rinky dink nation explore and set up a settlement in an area that's technically theirs.

There are alliances, that's one thing, but it's a completely different thing to allow another nation to take what is yours and do nothing about it.

the other thing is:

WHY is there even a Naples expedition to the new world? So far there's nothing there, the spanish aren't even in control of the Aztecs therefore they can't be bringing back gobs of gold and riches beyond their wildest dreams.

I'll have to say this.

A lot of the reasons behind expeditions and settlements are because of MONEY. spain sailed to the new world looking for india, it found little islands. Later it got the Aztecs and it grew rich.

Portugal got the spice trade from India, it got rich.

What is Naples getting. they're just a colony. They're costing a hell of a lot of money to set up and man. Yet they're bringing back nothing for their troubles. Does naples even have the power to project itself out like that? Does it even have the ships and the men to enforce it's continued control of those colonies?

What is Hansa doing? They're not getting rich off trading in south America, until they get the Inca, but no one even knows that they're there yet.


This stuff is happening WAAAAAAYYYY too fast.

[pa_dutch]

November 1501: Haudenosaunee diplomats among the Waponahkiyah take an interest in the crude written language employed by the Waponahkiyah, which may be a more viable form of record keeping than the traditional wampum used by Northeastern peoples. (Tom Veil can take this from here)

[The Sicilian]

The question is:

How in the hell is Spain letting other nations set up colonies in it's claimed territories?
Both of us have actual colonies on the island, there is plenty of land to share between us, and our relations are good. (we are blood relatives, afterall). It's nothing to go to war about.
Even if they're not outrightly settled or had a crew land on them and proclaim them Spanish, how is it that Spain for all it's greediness and all it's trying to grasp for power,
I don't exactly know. Ask AJ. He seems to have made Spain significantly less evil.
does it let a rinky dink nation explore and set up a settlement in an area that's technically theirs.
:mad::mad::mad:
Naples is not a rinky dink nation! See my post in the discussion thread
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=62921&page=6
Southern Italy is a lot less shity in this timeline.

the other thing is:

WHY is there even a Naples expedition to the new world? So far there's nothing there, the spanish aren't even in control of the Aztecs therefore they can't be bringing back gobs of gold and riches beyond their wildest dreams.
What do you mean there is noting there?! If there wasn't Spain and your own Portugal would be sending people out to find it! The Neapolitans are sending out people to do the same thing.

I'll have to say this.

A lot of the reasons behind expeditions and settlements are because of MONEY. spain sailed to the new world looking for india, it found little islands. Later it got the Aztecs and it grew rich.

Portugal got the spice trade from India, it got rich.

What is Naples getting. they're just a colony. They're costing a hell of a lot of money to set up and man. Yet they're bringing back nothing for their troubles. Does naples even have the power to project itself out like that? Does it even have the ships and the men to enforce it's continued control of those colonies?
IIRC the Carribean islands are good for growing sugar cane. It sits on a good route to Mexico, which I have some future interest in. It also forms a straight with Florida, which will be valuable in the future when inter-American trade starts booming

This stuff is happening WAAAAAAYYYY too fast.
Perhaps because you missed out on the first few weeks it seems fast to you. If you have a problem with out events, say which specific ones.

[AJNolte]

Couple questions/thoughts. First, has AJ signed off on this? Second, AJ, if you have, how do you justify this rather uncharacteristic behavior by Spain this early. Third, even if you two agree, the language needs to be changed. Naples is in no position to allow Spain anything. Allow definitely needs to be altered.

1. Spain and the Neopolitans are blood relatives. Also, that should be Central America, not all of South.
Yes, allow should be changed. It was more of a "we'll go North, he goes south" agreement. Incidentally, I'm thinking that Mexico will also remain in the Spanish sphere of influence.

[AJNolte]

Also: the Hanseatic interest in the new world is both trade and conversion. The Hansa's original reason for going around the cone was to follow up on Cabbot's phenominally successful initial expedition. THe Hansa also includes the Teutonic order, which will be attempting to fulfill it's original convert-the-natives role.
Trade and conversion...sounds like the exact same reasons as, well, everyone else.

Re: Spain being less evil: it's more like they've got less ability to project it. Columbus' second expedition didn't leave until 1500 because of the Crusade. He then spent 7 years conquering most of the Caribbean, then died, to little profit to the crown. There may be a shake-up in colonial policy, but right now the new world isn't doing Spain much good. In fact, they're getting more from trading contacts in Africa at present.

Messiniano: perhaps, for plausibility reasons, we should rework things a bit to make Naples a clearly junior partner. I think this is reasonable.
But everyone remember: there ***was not*** a Treaty of Tordesillas ITTL, so most of south America is unclaimed by either power. 1. Spain and the Neopolitans are blood relatives. Also, that should be Central America, not all of South.
Yes, allow should be changed. It was more of a "we'll go North, he goes south" agreement. Incidentally, I'm thinking that Mexico will also remain in the Spanish sphere of influence.

[AJNolte]

Also: both Portugal and Naples have cape settlements listed; isn't that a potential conflict?

[The Sicilian]

Okay, event rewritten.

1508: Having conflicting claims to the largest island in the Carribean, the kings of Spain and Naples sign a treaty to resolve the territorial issue. Naples would recieve the Western half (everything from Ciego de Ávila Province west) while spain would reviece the easter half. They two countries also agreed to send a joint exedition to the mainland south of the island (central America), which would become a Neapolitan sphere of influence. Naples and Spain agree to have a Spanish sphere of influence centered on Florida, and a Neapolitan sphere of influence centered on Central America.

[The Sicilian]

Messiniano: perhaps, for plausibility reasons, we should rework things a bit to make Naples a clearly junior partner. I think this is reasonable.
But everyone remember: there ***was not*** a Treaty of Tordesillas ITTL, so most of south America is unclaimed by either power.
Alright AJ. Would you like to do that?

[The Sicilian]

Also: both Portugal and Naples have cape settlements listed; isn't that a potential conflict?
In light of my blasphemus colonization attempts, Portugal can have it.

[Glen]

1. Spain and the Neopolitans are blood relatives.

True, but then again so is most of Europe, or it will be. Remember how close the crowned heads were who plunged us into WWI.:rolleyes:

On the other hand, IIRC Naples king is Ferdinand's grandson through his natural son, so some grandfatherly feeling might be appropriate....especially AFTER Isabella dies (she's not likely to be a bit sympathetic).


Also, that should be Central America, not all of South.

Better. I guess part of the problem here is that you'd really like to see contact with the Aztec civilization before all these other countries are getting in on travel to Central America.

Basically, if we had more details about the first encounters with the Aztecs in this world, preceding a rush by other nations, then it would be a bit easier to understand. Especially if the Aztec don't fall to some silly white guy named Cortez (oh, and his many pissed off allies in Mesoamerica).


Yes, allow should be changed. It was more of a "we'll go North, he goes south" agreement. Incidentally, I'm thinking that Mexico will also remain in the Spanish sphere of influence.

Better. May need to re-write as appropriate.

[AJNolte]

In light of my blasphemus colonization attempts, Portugal can have it.

I think Neapolitan involvement, as a junior partner/close ally of the Spanish, is probably reasonable
Remember, those of you who say Naples has no motivation, prestige was a clear motivator for colonial powers. I could see a few moderately profitable prestige colonies in Central America and the Caribbean.

Alternatively, if Messiniano is agreeable, I can collaborate with him on Spanish colonization (in which I frankly don't have a lot of interest; the domestic stuff interests me more), with the understanding that we'll bring in the Neapolitans at a later date. This would give Messiniano an ability to work in an area where he clearly has interest and allow him to eventually develop some Neapolitan colonies while freeing me to focus more on domestic issues in Spain.

[AJNolte]

Would a chance encounter between Columbus and the Aztecs, wherein Columbus reports glowingly of a country where everything is made of gold, do the trick?
I could easily go back and insert this. Columbus does not have the ability to conquer Mexico, but visiting it would be no problem. I could see the Spanish crown regarding this declaration as a bit nuts (after all: he might be just trying to redeem the fact that his colonies thus far haven't been too profitable). Or they might do what they did OTL: I'll figure that out (or let Messiniano help figure it out if he likes my division of labor idea) this week. But I think this would peak the interest of some smaller powers. It definitely would for the Hansa. True, but then again so is most of Europe, or it will be. Remember how close the crowned heads were who plunged us into WWI.:rolleyes:

On the other hand, IIRC Naples king is Ferdinand's grandson through his natural son, so some grandfatherly feeling might be appropriate....especially AFTER Isabella dies (she's not likely to be a bit sympathetic).



Better. I guess part of the problem here is that you'd really like to see contact with the Aztec civilization before all these other countries are getting in on travel to Central America.

Basically, if we had more details about the first encounters with the Aztecs in this world, preceding a rush by other nations, then it would be a bit easier to understand. Especially if the Aztec don't fall to some silly white guy named Cortez (oh, and his many pissed off allies in Mesoamerica).



Better. May need to re-write as appropriate.

[The Sicilian]

I think Neapolitan involvement, as a junior partner/close ally of the Spanish, is probably reasonable
Remember, those of you who say Naples has no motivation, prestige was a clear motivator for colonial powers. I could see a few moderately profitable prestige colonies in Central America and the Caribbean.

Sure, that sounds agreeable.

[Smaug]

Would a chance encounter between Columbus and the Aztecs, wherein Columbus reports glowingly of a country where everything is made of gold, do the trick?
I could easily go back and insert this. Columbus does not have the ability to conquer Mexico, but visiting it would be no problem. I could see the Spanish crown regarding this declaration as a bit nuts (after all: he might be just trying to redeem the fact that his colonies thus far haven't been too profitable). Or they might do what they did OTL: I'll figure that out (or let Messiniano help figure it out if he likes my division of labor idea) this week. But I think this would peak the interest of some smaller powers. It definitely would for the Hansa.

Just have them meet with one of the tribes outside the Aztec Empire. Any of them would gladly throw the Aztecs under a bus after tithing thier people to feed the Aztec need for sacrifice.

[Glen]

But everyone remember: there ***was not*** a Treaty of Tordesillas ITTL, so most of south America is unclaimed by either power.

Not to complain....I'd actually like it better without it....but how was it removed from the timeline so early? And could we get a confirmation from John and Psych and AJ on how that went down and a retro'd event showing it?

[Glen]

I think Neapolitan involvement, as a junior partner/close ally of the Spanish, is probably reasonable
Remember, those of you who say Naples has no motivation, prestige was a clear motivator for colonial powers. I could see a few moderately profitable prestige colonies in Central America and the Caribbean.

Eventually, yes. This is true. However, we're sort of in the 'pre-colonial' phase still.

Alternatively, if Messiniano is agreeable, I can collaborate with him on Spanish colonization (in which I frankly don't have a lot of interest; the domestic stuff interests me more), with the understanding that we'll bring in the Neapolitans at a later date. This would give Messiniano an ability to work in an area where he clearly has interest and allow him to eventually develop some Neapolitan colonies while freeing me to focus more on domestic issues in Spain.

That's probably a much better alternative.

PS - Here's a model for forced colonization and development driven by one man's determination, Courland....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courland_colonization_of_the_Americas

[Glen]

Would a chance encounter between Columbus and the Aztecs, wherein Columbus reports glowingly of a country where everything is made of gold, do the trick?
I could easily go back and insert this. Columbus does not have the ability to conquer Mexico, but visiting it would be no problem. I could see the Spanish crown regarding this declaration as a bit nuts (after all: he might be just trying to redeem the fact that his colonies thus far haven't been too profitable). Or they might do what they did OTL: I'll figure that out (or let Messiniano help figure it out if he likes my division of labor idea) this week. But I think this would peak the interest of some smaller powers. It definitely would for the Hansa.

Not really necessary....the last mission of John Cabot encounters at least the periphery of the Aztec Empire. Enough to make that sort of 'rumor' motivation possible.

Kind to think of it, Sebastian Cabot's report at the end of the journey will probably be enough to interest the English as well....and we know where it is, if not fully what it is.

[Glen]

Just have them meet with one of the tribes outside the Aztec Empire. Any of them would gladly throw the Aztecs under a bus after tithing thier people to feed the Aztec need for sacrifice.

Have in mind anyone in particular?:rolleyes:

[Smaug]

Have in mind anyone in particular?:rolleyes:

My Huastecs had little or no love for the Aztecs. I have no beef with the Aztec player per say, but if you need a point of contact, they would be a good fit for the problem.

They would probably say they hated the Aztecs, with all their gold and lust for sacrifices. While they'd managed to keep thier independence, they were tired of sending thier children off to die, also it was a matter of time before the Aztecs absorbed them.

What would you do? Did you really have to roll your eyes? :)

[AJNolte]

Perhaps a compromise: Messiniano: how'd you like to be in charge of Spanish colonization, with the previso that we bring the Neapolitans in no later than, say, 1560? Also, we can still do a joint Hanseatic/Neopolitan expedition and small colony on the site of OTL BA. Psychomeltdown: sorry if you don't like it, but it's far enough from Brazil not to be a threat. The Spanishmight not be entirely fond of it, but it's beyond their ability to project power. And as for the English: well, we'll supply any expeditions you make through the straights. In fact, provided that you pay a not-too-steep tole, we'll keep the straights open. I think this is reasonable.
Glen: Tordesillas just seems to have not happened. Spanish interest was diverted elsewhere by the Crusade. Portugal was focussed almost exclusively on India. The Pope told Spain to be nice to the natives and asked for a percentage of Spanish lands, but Tordesillas never happened. So South America is, to the best of my knowledge, wide open.

Unless, of course, we're simply allowing OTL events to take over in loo of any direct change? I think the Pope's land claims would constitute enough of a POD to butterfly Tordesillas out.

Technically you could argue that his letter to Their Catholic Majesties constitutes a Papal blessing for the Spanish to have the whole thing, so long as they comply with his terms. I may even have later Spanish monarchs make such a claim and attempt to throw out all the squatters in the future, possibly later in the century. Of course, it could be argued that the Spanish didn't fulfill their end of the bargain.

Oh, as to the relatively less evil Spanish: I bring to your attention the Papal letter sighted above.

[Tom Veil]

But everyone remember: there ***was not*** a Treaty of Tordesillas ITTL, so most of south America is unclaimed by either power.

Good point!

[The Sicilian]

That sounds exellent AJ. Good compromise.

[Smaug]

Perhaps a compromise: Messiniano: how'd you like to be in charge of Spanish colonization, with the previso that we bring the Neapolitans in no later than, say, 1560? Also, we can still do a joint Hanseatic/Neopolitan expedition and small colony on the site of OTL BA. Psychomeltdown: sorry if you don't like it, but it's far enough from Brazil not to be a threat. The Spanishmight not be entirely fond of it, but it's beyond their ability to project power. And as for the English: well, we'll supply any expeditions you make through the straights. In fact, provided that you pay a not-too-steep tole, we'll keep the straights open. I think this is reasonable.
Glen: Tordesillas just seems to have not happened. Spanish interest was diverted elsewhere by the Crusade. Portugal was focussed almost exclusively on India. The Pope told Spain to be nice to the natives and asked for a percentage of Spanish lands, but Tordesillas never happened. So South America is, to the best of my knowledge, wide open.

Unless, of course, we're simply allowing OTL events to take over in loo of any direct change? I think the Pope's land claims would constitute enough of a POD to butterfly Tordesillas out.

Technically you could argue that his letter to Their Catholic Majesties constitutes a Papal blessing for the Spanish to have the whole thing, so long as they comply with his terms. I may even have later Spanish monarchs make such a claim and attempt to throw out all the squatters in the future, possibly later in the century. Of course, it could be argued that the Spanish didn't fulfill their end of the bargain.

Oh, as to the relatively less evil Spanish: I bring to your attention the Papal letter sighted above.

So South America is, to the best of my knowledge, wide open.qt

For some reason, I take exception to that remark:)

[Glen]

Okay, in a little bit I'm going to move the conversation on plausibility to Discussion.

Sounds like we're moving towards some improvement in the timeline development.

[Tom Veil]

November 1501: Haudenosaunee diplomats among the Waponahkiyah take an interest in the crude written language employed by the Waponahkiyah, which may be a more viable form of record keeping than the traditional wampum used by Northeastern peoples. (Tom Veil can take this from here)

Probably more than you were expecting... :D


1501 December: Hurit, leader of the Haudenosaunee mission to the Waponahkiyah, begins to write under her name, which means "beauty" in one of the Waponahkiyah languages. Her original name is lost -- she is only known to history as Hurit, (self-described) Granddaughter of Hiawatha.
1504 November: The man whom the legends call Hiawatha dies. A Clan Mother takes on the new name Chiefess Orenda and becomes Chiefess of the Onondaga. Hurit immediately returns to the Onondaga Council, where she begins writing “The Funeral”, a 1000-word poem that, while written in Waponahkiyik characters, is written in Iroquoian grammar and is therefore considered the first Iroquois writing. In addition to describing the funeral, it predicts a horrible holocaust, a revelation, and a golden age to come. It opens with the line, “If the snow buries my neighborhood, and if my parents are crying, then I'll dig a tunnel from my window to yours.”
1504 December: A month after Hiawatha’s death, Grand Council Iroquoians and other well-wishers from the farthest corners of TurtleIsland are still pouring into the city of Onondaga. Those who visited 10 years ago for the Grand Council are stunned by the prosperity that strong government, good harvests, and wide roads and brought the Haudenosaunee. Many of the southern tribes resolve to bring this prosperity to their own lands, and they stay for months afterward learning all they can from each other. Many return home with painstakingly copied engravings of “The Funeral”. Although almost none of them have learned how to read it (they simply memorized the story, as they always do), the fact that a common document is spread among dozens of locations, some a million paces from each other, provides the travelers with great spiritual satisfaction.
1505 January: Hurit marries a Waponahkiyik man. The Haudenosaunee pronounce it proof that the two nations are now forever linked in peace.

[AJNolte]

Look, I said the Spanish were a little less evil; that doesn't go so far as to them not being incredibly Eurocentric. <g>

BTW: if the Hansa colony passes the plausibility test, I'll see if I can't shoot a trade deligation the Muisca way. They seem to be kindred spirots with the Hansa. So South America is, to the best of my knowledge, wide open.qt

For some reason, I take exception to that remark:)

[Tom Veil]

1507 January: Work begins on the Imperial Road, a wide, tree- and canal-lined, brick-laid road from Diu via Chittor to Chittagong. It is for Raimal what the temples were for more architecturally-minded emperors – audacious and labor-intensive proof of his greatness.

[Psychomeltdown]

Yeah, kinda learned that the Treaty of Tordesillas wasn't signed in this Timeline.

But Hansa,Spain, and Maples will have to all understand that Portugal is basically the super power in Naval terms. We've got about a hundred years of cultural build up, master sailors, navigators, and probably more ships than England, Hansa, Naples, and Spain put together. Plus they're getting rich off the Indian Spice Trade while Naples and the nation that depend upon it are doing to be going broke soon because the Portuguese are 1. selling more cheaper 2. destroying Muslim ships that operate in the Indian Ocean.

I can agree to the fact that Spain allows Naples to ride it's tailcoats to the New World, i can agree that Hansa manages to set up a small settlement in the New World, but i contest the speed at which it is done.

Naples can be riding along with Spain. But Hansa? unless Naples is selling secrets to Hansa then they're pretty much going blind into the abyss and hoping they hit gold. They're spending a lot of cash to finance Naples and to finance their own expeditions, not to mention maintaining a settlement in the middle of nowhere that's incredibly hard to keep safe, supply, and which is making no money at all.

[AJNolte]

Yeah, kinda learned that the Treaty of Tordesillas wasn't signed in this Timeline.

But Hansa,Spain, and Maples will have to all understand that Portugal is basically the super power in Naval terms. We've got about a hundred years of cultural build up, master sailors, navigators, and probably more ships than England, Hansa, Naples, and Spain put together. Plus they're getting rich off the Indian Spice Trade while Naples and the nation that depend upon it are doing to be going broke soon because the Portuguese are 1. selling more cheaper 2. destroying Muslim ships that operate in the Indian Ocean.

I can agree to the fact that Spain allows Naples to ride it's tailcoats to the New World, i can agree that Hansa manages to set up a small settlement in the New World, but i contest the speed at which it is done.

Naples can be riding along with Spain. But Hansa? unless Naples is selling secrets to Hansa then they're pretty much going blind into the abyss and hoping they hit gold. They're spending a lot of cash to finance Naples and to finance their own expeditions, not to mention maintaining a settlement in the middle of nowhere that's incredibly hard to keep safe, supply, and which is making no money at all.

Uh, a super-power?
Yes, you've got the naval experience, a lot of trade and contacts in three continents. However, you've got to be focussed primarily on India. I can see modest settlement on the continent and Brazil, but projecting power into the rest of South America?

Spain did not colonize as aggressively in the 1490s ITTL because of the crusade, so they're about a decade behind. That said, it can be argued that they actually did rather well for themselves out of the whole thing. The Neapolitans ended up in administrative control; the Spanish got some fancy titles and some gold, for what was a very minimal cost. Granted, they'd need to step in there in the event of a war with the OOttomans, but that's not going to happen.

Bottom line: I'll grant that Portugal has naval proponderence, but you run the risk of dangerously over-extending if you try to enforce any North American claims beyond Brazil.

[General_Paul]

No Man's Land: Ming China and the Burden of Manchuria

1500: The year 1500 marks a watershed year in Chinese history. Two years after the signing of the Imperial Business Compact Declaration, the Hongzhi Emperor took China's first real steps onto the international stage in the nearly seven decades since the end of Zheng He's expeditions into the Indian Ocean. On March 20, 1500, the Hongzhi Emperor ordered the Ming Navy to set sail for Taiwan, fulfilling their obligations to the Ryukyuans by launching a punitive expedition against the natives on the island. By the first week of April, almost 3,000 men had been ferried over to the island, with an additional 6,000 earmarked for deployment before the end of June. During the month of July the 9,000 man army, in conjunction with the manpower deployed by the Ryukyuans, was able to put the rebellious native Taiwanese citizenry in their respective places and began extracting the tribute promised the Ryukyuan government by the Hongzhi Emperor.

With these actions, Ming China dealt with one of its neighbors, a cultural satellite of the Chinese, on equal terms rather then as, "barbarians." This equal treatment of the Ryukyuans by the Hongzhi Emperor, who was attempting to placate the Ryukyuan emperor and the newly legitimate merchant class, is the watershed event that set the stage for further developments in Chinese policy for the rest of the 17th Century. By treating a cultural satellite, such as Ryukyu, as having equal legitimacy to China, rather than as pseudo-barbarians living on the fringe of the Middle Kingdom, the Hongzhi Emperor set a standing precident in imperial relations that could be extended much later to non-Asiatic peoples, such as the European traders and diplomats who would arrive later on to negotiate trade deals with the Ming government.

However, by the end of the decade, the Taiwanese expedition would seem a welcome distraction in comparison to the troubles that would plague the Ming frontier and draw China into conflict with its oldest adversaries, nomadic tribesmen.

1501: With the improvements of the Great Wall continuing unhindered and the situation on Taiwan resolved, the Hongzhi Emperor took it upon himself to begin dealing with something which had plagued his father and grandfather before him for nearly a century, the Manchu peoples. While the Manchu peoples were considered a vassal state of the Ming Dynasty and supplied the Ming armies with a good percentage of their war horses via trading posts, the increasing sinification of the Jurchen people, the native Manchu population, was causing issues for some of the local tribal leaders. The growing political and economic clout of the Ming was beginning to disturb Sibeoci Fiyanggū, the chieftain of the Jurchen people. Sibeoci Fiyanggū was of the Odoli Clan, a people located on the banks of the Hun River, who were known for their horsemanship and skill with a bow and arrow. Fiyanggū could claim lineage from Genghis Khan, giving him legitimacy among many of the tribes of Jurchen who practiced their nomadic lifestyles unchanged for many centuries.

By 1501, Fiyanggū's people were becoming a minority. Migrations into Manchu lands by non-Jurchen peoples, specifically ethnic Han Chinese, were becoming much more frequent and were forcing many clans off ancient tribal claims to pasturage that were the only source of food for their animals. Many of the pastures taken over by Han Chinese migrating into Manchuria were turned into farms to feed families, and to send food to markets in the south, leaving the native Manchus with a shrinking area of untilled land in which to practice their ages old lifestyle of moving from field to field with their livestock, stopping only to sleep.

Another troubling trend among younger Jurchens was a trend to give up their nomadic lifestyles and take up sedentary lives as farmers, or worse, move into North China and set up trading posts to make a profit. It was with this trend, began only three years prior in the lands of the Ming, that Sibeoci Fiyanggū came to the conclusion that this was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Before the end of the year, Sibeoci Fiyanggū would draw many neighboring Jurchen tribes, as well as other Manchu tribes, into an alliance to drive the Han Chinese out of their lands, and reclaim their lands rather than letting them fall into the hands of the settled Chinese.

1502-04: Sibeoci Fiyanggū spent two years building up his alliance of Jurchen and Manchu tribes to prepare for the struggle against the Ming. Fiyanggū was not a fool, he knew that the Hongzhi Emperor could bring many thousands of men to bear against the much smaller number of Manchu warriors. However, he had no choice in the matter and he believed that he no longer had the time that was needed to prepare his people for the war with the Ming.

In China, the Hongzhi Emperor spent these two years in an exactly opposite fashion than his future Manchu adversary. From 1502 to 1504, the Hongzhi Emperor was attempting to begin assimilating the Taiwanese tribes into the Chinese system of tribute, a process which would span well into the reign of his grandson. Along with this, he was also overseeing a period of unrivaled economic prosperity in China. In the four years following the Imperial Business Compact Declaration, thousands of business owners had registered for Imperial Business Compacts with the government, forcing the emperor to create a new government office: The Office of Imperial Business Affairs. In keeping with his trend of cutting down the excess fat, so to speak, of the bureaucracy, the emperor transferred bureaucrats, whose positions were to be eliminated, over to the newly created Office of Business Affairs (OOC: shortened title), and cut their old positions as originally planned.

Along with the creation of the Office of Business Affairs, the emperor also began to look into his trading situation on the periphery of the empire. Trade with the nomadic Mongols in the north, and Jurchens in the north-east was paying off for the empire. However, they could not continue the tea-horse trade as it stood and reports of inept commanders along the border began to trouble him more frequently. In 1503, the emperor summoned 30 regional commanders who he was informed were the most inept to the Forbidden Palace in Beijing, and proceeded to verbally tear them apart, calling them lazy and incompetent. By the end, he informed army generals that they were to fire all 30, "with extreme hostility, something they lacked against the enemies of the state," according to some eye witness reports. The army was also informed that it would be forced to take offensive measures should the Mongol tribes be found to be uncontrolable.

The process of installing competent leadership in the border areas would not be completed in 1505 when the first Jurchen lead attacks into Ming claimed lands would take place.

1505: On February 10, in the dead of winter, Manchu warriors attacked a border outpost in Duoyan serving as the defense of the local settlers. The garrison of 500 men was slaughtered down to the last man as a message to the locals, leave or end up like them. By early Spring, Manchu tribes were leading multiple raids into villages of settlers up and down the border in Duoyan, Jianzhou, and Chahar. The Hongzhi Emperor had little choice but to dispatch 45,000 men under the command of several generals. Unlike expeditions mounted under the Song Dynasty or earlier in the Ming Dynasty, the Hongzhi Emperor was unwilling to take command of armies in the field, preferring instead to let his generals do their job and he would do his.

This 45,000 man expedition would not reach the border until late July, owing to the army's access to experienced combat officer's, many of who were still leading troops in the subjugation of Taiwanese locals. When offensive operations were undertaken in early August, they were an unmitigated disaster. Nearly 10,000 men were killed or wounded in two months of campaigning from August to late September, with the slaughter ending only with the onslaught of the Manchurian winter. No progress had been made, and worse still, settlers were reporting many neighboring villages simply disappearing overnight, leaving ashes and blood where once thriving settlements existed hours before.

1506: In two years of open combat against the Manchu tribes under the command of Sibeoci Fiyanggū, the Ming Dynasty suffered almost 80,000 casualties, 3/4 of who were reported killed or wounded with the last 1/4 reported as missing in action or deserters. Incompetent leadership was labeled as the leading cause of such casualties, with general after general leading failed assaults on Manchu tribes who would simply negotiate around the large, unwieldy formations of foot soldiers and archers and strike them from behind.

On the home front, the economy began to slow a bit due to a 9% drop in business compact registrations, likely due to the fact that those who wanted compacts during the first decade of the Imperial Business Compact, were able to get their compacts without much trouble. However, as the economic growth began to stabilize, private shipping firms were taking up the slack in the trading sector by investing in the construction of merchant junks to expand trade routes many thousands of miles further than they had originally been mapped out as being.

Private firms even went so far as to dispatch trade junks to as far south as the Cape of Good Hope in an attempt to make contact with European merchants, who would buy their cargoes of tea, spice, and silk for a tidy profit. Not many of these trade junks were able to offload their merchandise onto Europeans, and most of those who were able to do so, did so in ports in the Indian Ocean, most important of which was Hormuz, where merchants were raking in profits from Portuguese traders who would gladly offer even their own wives, jokingly of course, for merchant junk cargoes.

While the Hongzhi Emperor did note that such expeditions by private business owners were highly profitable, he could not take time to capitalize on such information with the Manchu conflict going so poorly. (OOC: In OTL, the Hongzhi Emperor died in this year at the age of 35.)

1507-08: After three years of mass slaughter, the Ming armies finally had several strong victories that they could write home about. In late May 1506, five Jurchen tribes launching raids on Ming settlements in Duoyan were defeated by Ming generals who were finally beginning to adapt their tactics to Manchu fighting styles. By the time winter rolled in, Ming armies had marched well north of their military encampments in southern Duoyan and hot on the heels of retreating Manchu clans who now found themselves on the recieving end of punitive raids. In 1507 and 1508, these victories were followed up on by additional Ming armies dispatched to the region, driving the Manchu tribes further north into the cold lands of the Siberian tundra, referred to in official court documents as Seber, a reference to the local Tartar tribes name for this area.

1509-10: Two additional years of warfare lead the armies of the Hongzhi Emperor to a status quo victory over the Manchu tribes who now found themselves subjugated under the rule of the Ming Dynasty. Sibeoci Fiyanggū and his Odoli Clan were driven north, beyond their native Manchurian fields, into the frozen tundra and forests of Eastern Siberia (Seber). After their defeat at the hands of the Hongzhi Emperor's armies and the splintering of the Manchu clans, it would take several decades for any semblance of order to be restored to the now entirely nomadic Manchu tribes, who found themselves without a home, and without much grazing land available to them. Only at the turn of the 17th Century would the Jurchen clans again find themselves to be in an advantageous position to threatten to the northern Ming flanks.

In China, while the loss of many tens of thousands of lives in the Manchu conflict was regrettable and caused the emperor much anguish, the victory over the Manchu tribes and the opening of all of Manchuria to Han settlement opened a doorway to the Ming not opened since the days of the Han emperor. The Ming now had access to all of the horses, grazing land, and fertile farm land necessary to quench the thirst of the peasant class for generations to come. Along with that, it was no longer necessary for the Ming armies in the west to continue treating the other nomadic peoples, the Mongols, as unequal trading partners.

By the end of 1510, the Ming armies would begin the process of becoming entirely self-sufficient in horses needed by their cavalry. Within a few decades, the hearty horses of the steppe would be bred by the thousands in Manchuria and interior China, leaving the Mongol tribes increasingly on the loosing end of Ming trading policy.

[KineticBots]

No Man's Land: Ming China and the Burden of Manchuria

1500: The year 1500 marks a watershed year in Chinese history. Two years after the signing of the Imperial Business Compact Declaration, the Hongzhi Emperor took China's first real steps onto the international stage in the nearly seven decades since the end of Zheng He's expeditions into the Indian Ocean. On March 20, 1500, the Hongzhi Emperor ordered the Ming Navy to set sail for Taiwan, fulfilling their obligations to the Ryukyuans by launching a punitive expedition against the natives on the island. By the first week of April, almost 3,000 men had been ferried over to the island, with an additional 6,000 earmarked for deployment before the end of June. During the month of July the 9,000 man army, in conjunction with the manpower deployed by the Ryukyuans, was able to put the rebellious native Taiwanese citizenry in their respective places and began extracting the tribute promised the Ryukyuan government by the Hongzhi Emperor.

With these actions, Ming China dealt with one of its neighbors, a cultural satellite of the Chinese, on equal terms rather then as, "barbarians." This equal treatment of the Ryukyuans by the Hongzhi Emperor, who was attempting to placate the Ryukyuan emperor and the newly legitimate merchant class, is the watershed event that set the stage for further developments in Chinese policy for the rest of the 17th Century. By treating a cultural satellite, such as Ryukyu, as having equal legitimacy to China, rather than as pseudo-barbarians living on the fringe of the Middle Kingdom, the Hongzhi Emperor set a standing precident in imperial relations that could be extended much later to non-Asiatic peoples, such as the European traders and diplomats who would arrive later on to negotiate trade deals with the Ming government.

However, by the end of the decade, the Taiwanese expedition would seem a welcome distraction in comparison to the troubles that would plague the Ming frontier and draw China into conflict with its oldest adversaries, nomadic tribesmen.



Very, VERY impressed with the Chinese response.

The Ryukyuans are more than a bit esteemed with the shift in Chinese attitudes (and so am I!). Looks like international relations in East Asia ITTL will take a very different course to OTL.

Just a couple of quick questions:

1. I take it the Chinese forces stayed in Taiwan?

2. Could you give specific borders for how far the Ming armies pushed the Manchus?

Keep up the good work General.


Regards,
KineticBots

[Smaug]

Perhaps a compromise: Messiniano: how'd you like to be in charge of Spanish colonization, with the previso that we bring the Neapolitans in no later than, say, 1560? Also, we can still do a joint Hanseatic/Neopolitan expedition and small colony on the site of OTL BA. Psychomeltdown: sorry if you don't like it, but it's far enough from Brazil not to be a threat. The Spanishmight not be entirely fond of it, but it's beyond their ability to project power. And as for the English: well, we'll supply any expeditions you make through the straights. In fact, provided that you pay a not-too-steep tole, we'll keep the straights open. I think this is reasonable.
Glen: Tordesillas just seems to have not happened. Spanish interest was diverted elsewhere by the Crusade. Portugal was focussed almost exclusively on India. The Pope told Spain to be nice to the natives and asked for a percentage of Spanish lands, but Tordesillas never happened. So South America is, to the best of my knowledge, wide open.

Unless, of course, we're simply allowing OTL events to take over in loo of any direct change? I think the Pope's land claims would constitute enough of a POD to butterfly Tordesillas out.

Technically you could argue that his letter to Their Catholic Majesties constitutes a Papal blessing for the Spanish to have the whole thing, so long as they comply with his terms. I may even have later Spanish monarchs make such a claim and attempt to throw out all the squatters in the future, possibly later in the century. Of course, it could be argued that the Spanish didn't fulfill their end of the bargain.

Oh, as to the relatively less evil Spanish: I bring to your attention the Papal letter sighted above.

This might sound silly, but would the Hansa give a crap about a Papal Treaty of Tordesillas? I don't think it would affect them at all, other than thier Neoplitan Alliance, assuming they're Catholics for lack of a better term at this time. Would'nt the Hansa be ideal Lutherans?

Hows that Reformation going?

[The Sicilian]

Papal States:
1504-1507: Pope Alexander continues his decline into insanity after losing much of the territory
of the Papal States to Naples.

1507: Alexander shuffles off the mortal coil. He is replaced by Archbishop of Naples Vincenzo
Carafa. He takes the name Innocent IX.

1508: Innocent sends a contingent of priests to set up a Church on the Island of San Juan in the
Carribean, and to educate and Christianize the natives. They are sent with a Spanish ship.

[RCTFI]

OOC: Since I got a few questions of who Heinrich Schneider is, I'll explain:

Heinrich Schneider is a priest in Wien who preaches a doctrine fairly similar to Savanarola's. In 1500, he gets the city of Wien to rebel at just the right moment to doom Maximilian I's campaign in Switzerland.
In 1502, with the matter of Switzerland settled, Maximilian I besieges Wien...

IC: When Maximilian I besieged Wien, he intended merely to restore some measure of order to the south of the Empire. He failed - three days into the siege, he was forced to abandon it to put down another revolt, this one along the eastern fronteir of Austria. While he crushed that revolt personally, his main force was too slow to act properly, and the Imperial artillery train is struck during a brave sallying effort on the part of the defenders of Wien - they capture many guns, slaughter many gunners and humiliate Maximilian I who begins looking into ways to improve the speed and versatility of his infantry.
After the defeat of the Imperial artillery train, Maximilian I loses heart where Wien is concerned - he breaks off the siege until spring of 1503, when he returns with a smaller force and tries to besiege the city, but once again fails - the defenders are ready, and have many Imperial guns that they captured last year, which they use to good effect.
What follows is a series of small-scale campaigns as the Imperial forces try to regain control - in 1503, 1504, 1505, 1506 and 1507 they try and each time they fail.
Finally, in 1508, Maximilian I is wounded during the largely indecisive battle that ensues as the Imperial army comes under attack. Dispirited and miserable, Maximilian I and his army camp out near the city, at which point Maximilian I decides to request to speak with Heinrich Schneider. His request is granted, and they meet between the city of Wien and the main Imperial camp. The Emperor, still suffering from his wound, speaks with Father Schneider for a long time. When he is done, he returns to his army, and the next morning proclaims that he is now convinced that the views expressed by Father Schneider have some legitimacy - he goes on to make clear that the anti-noble elements are in no way part ofwhat he is considering - and he then announces that Father Schneider will be the new Imperial Chaplain. This comes as a suprise to many of the corrupt bishops and senior priests who were denounced by Father Schneider and his followers...

While he does coopt Father Schneider, Maximilian I makes it clear that this is not some heresy - he sees this as a purification of the Church, something that will restore things to the way they should be.

[AJNolte]

Just let me know if Maxie's going to die eh? Succession could be...interesting.

Are there other Hapsburgs aside from Philip who might inherit Austria?
What's going on with the Widelsbachs in Bavaria?

[Glen]

OOC: Since I got a few questions of who Heinrich Schneider is, I'll explain:

Heinrich Schneider is a priest in Wien who preaches a doctrine fairly similar to Savanarola's.

Is he an OTL person?

[General_Paul]

Very, VERY impressed with the Chinese response.

The Ryukyuans are more than a bit esteemed with the shift in Chinese attitudes (and so am I!). Looks like international relations in East Asia ITTL will take a very different course to OTL.

Just a couple of quick questions:

1. I take it the Chinese forces stayed in Taiwan?

2. Could you give specific borders for how far the Ming armies pushed the Manchus?

Keep up the good work General.


Regards,
KineticBots

Hey KineticBots,

To address those questions:

1) Yes, Chinese forces did stay behind in Taiwan to ensure that the locals paid their remaining debts to the Ryukyuans. However, due to the war with the Jurchens and Manchu tribes, many of the experienced officers and NCO's were reassigned to the Manchurian front, including many experienced officers and NCO's stationed in Taiwan. So, the Taiwanese garrison is still around 9,000 men give or take a few hundred, but is lead by a lot of officers and NCO's with little if any experience in leading troops in combat. But, considering that the local Taiwanese population is still way behind the curve, I doubt that many of the tribes will challenge Ming authority, or Ryukyuan authority for that matter.

2) For the specific borders as to how far the Ming drove the Jurchens and their allies out of Manchuria, that'd be kind of difficult. They chased them for nearly two years due north into what is OTL's Russian Siberia, about as far as the emperor was willing to let the military go. After that, the Ming made sure to leave border garrisons and began building defensive structures. So, maybe a bit north of OTL's Manchurian-Russian border? Not north by much, maybe 20-30 miles north of the modern border. I don't think though that the Manchus are going to be much of a threat in the near or forseeable future. The Ming more or less drove them into the Siberian tundra where a lot of hostile tribes still exist.

In the long run, the Jurchens may be able to strong arm enough local tribes into alliances by the end of the 16th or the start of the 17th Century, but it's a long ways away...

[marl_d]

thanks for leaving them to me General Paul....always fun to have more hostile tribes around :rolleyes::D

[Glen]

England:

1502:

Vanilla is an instant hit in England when the Cabot Expedition returns with samples from a place called Cempoala. More missions are planned in future.

[pa_dutch]

August 1506: The largest Wabanakiyik settlements of Norridgewock, Jipugtug, Nashwaak, Abegweit, Sebayik, Oromocto, and Mniku all grow and prosper due to trade with the Haudensausee and the southern tribes. The Wabanakiyik also begin to move into the island of Newfoundland.

[Glen]

August 1506: The largest Wabanakiyik settlements of Norridgewock, Jipugtug, Nashwaak, Abegweit, Sebayik, Oromocto, and Mniku all grow and prosper due to trade with the Haudensausee and the southern tribes. The Wabanakiyik also begin to move into the island of Newfoundland.

Norasia:

September 1506: The Wabanakiyik encounter English fishing camps on the shores of Newfoundland, as the English have taken to referring to this first land of Norasia discovered by John Cabot.

OOC: Note that there were English fishing off here by this time IOTL as well.

[pa_dutch]

November 1506: English mariners establish contact with the Lnu'k (Micmac) heartland. The Waponahkiyik grant the English permission to trade from the burgeoning port of the Segepenegatig Lnu'k, Jipugtug. The English take to calling the town "Chiptoc".

[Glen]

England:

1495: King Henry VII proclaims that no weapon may be given, traded, or sold in Norasia without the recipient swearing loyalty to the English Crown.

[Glen]

Norasia:

1503:

English traders of the Society of Venture Merchants retrace the route of John Cabot to the lands of the Haustecs and the Totonac. The contrast between the two neighboring states is amusing, given the Haustec perchant for nudity and the Totonan for fine vestments. Trade relations are established, but both groups as for aid against a dominating group inland that requires taxes in human sacrifices, the Azteca.

The English provide some arms, but by law can only offer them to those who swear loyalty to the English Crown.

[marl_d]

July 1507-1509: Nil Sorsky decides to start evangelizing to the peasants. He tells his “Sorskivtes” that he will be leaving for the Russian countryside teaching, preaching, living off what the Lord provides. He does not ask any of them to follow him, but would not reject any company. A small band of 20 set out to preach the about reforming and going back to a simpler, apostleistic approach to God.

This move is at first seen as a bit of a joke by the Hierarchy, particularly Joseph Volotsky, until Sorskivites gain strength through the peasant population and lower clergy. Hoping to crush the heresy, the Josephineians start a smear campaign against Sorsky and his followers.

During this time, the Sorskivtes develop the reformations basic doctrines, while most don’t differ from the Orthodox, such as the Trinity, Iconography, the Resurrection, the infallibility of the Bible and the Orthodoxy’s idea’s on “Sola scriptura”. However the reformers believe that the Individual only way to God is through ones own inner world and personal emotional experiences of faith, Monks should use their time for productive labor, a modest lifestyle as well as going about seeing to the peasants and those that are sick and unable to care for themselves.

A group of Sorskivites takes it upon themselves to start learning what they can to treat the sick and heal using Christ as an example. They also glean what they can from Local healers and star experimenting with different cures for various ailments.

1508: With the increase in trade between Moscow and Riga, Dmitriy annexes the autonomous reigns of Pskov and Volokolamsk.
1509: A peasant brings his 7-year-old son, Alik, to the Knights of St Andrew. The Grand Master asks why he doesn’t send him to a Monastery instead, the father replies that he did but they threw him out because he kept escaping and was leading the other boys on “crusades” to route out the heathen Mongols. The boy is very intelligent and absorbs everything he’s learned, but is undisciplined and vivid imagination, and can’t be controlled. The Grand Master accepts the young Alik, and keeps an eye on the boy.

August 15, 1510: Vasili getting frustrated with his nephew’s rule and lax policies regarding the reformers and feeling that the third Rome is losing it’s prestige, finally sets out for Constantinople. When he leaves he offers Joseph Volotsky, Clergy and Boyars that are loyal to him as well as feed up with Dmitriy’s rule to join him. He promises to get land and positions in his court for the Boyars, and High Ranks in the Orthodox Hierarchy in Constantinople.

[Tom Veil]

Based on conversations with Glen, but Glen and pa_dutch, please comment/edit:

June 1498: After tense negotiations, Stadacona agrees to let the English set up a trading post. They choose a location just upriver from the island on which the major Stadacona settlement lies. It is called Fort Venture, and the mixed English-Iroquoian settlement that develops around it is called "Red Slope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap-Rouge%2C_Quebec)."

March 1500: Encouraged by the Stadacona's excellent relationship with the English, the Hochelega eagerly allow a trading post near their settlement. The crew quickly settles on a magnificent natural harbor (http://www.vieux.montreal.qc.ca/plaque/horizon/eng/ruptura.htm). It is originally known as Fall Line, for being located as far inland as any oceangoing ship can reach. Later, when word of John Cabot's death reaches the crew, they change the name to Cabot Harbor.

April 1501: The first Native-European marriage takes place in Red Slope. The ceremony is mostly Catholic, but the priest accords great respect to "the curious customs of these Eden-like people." The Stadacona woman takes on the name Rebecca Smith, while the Englishman takes on the name Karaken ('white one').

[AJNolte]

I meant to post this earlier but forgot to do so:
1500: Building on the cores of veterans from the reconquista and crusade, Spain begins expanding it's army and navy. Though they will have great success in both these areas, Spain's financial situation will worsen greatly as a result.

[Psychomeltdown]

I meant to post this earlier but forgot to do so:
1500: Building on the cores of veterans from the reconquista and crusade, Spain begins expanding it's army and navy. Though they will have great success in both these areas, Spain's financial situation will worsen greatly as a result.

Um... how long can Spain be teetering upon the edge of near financial ruin?

[AJNolte]

Um... how long can Spain be teetering upon the edge of near financial ruin?

You're not getting the fact that the crusades WERE NOT a financially ruinous war for Spain. Yes, I know, they don't have all the gold from the Aztecs and Incas. Yes, I know, the reconquista cost them. That being said, their financial situation isn't truly offal--until they start this military build-up withoup at the same time they're starting colonization.

[AJNolte]

1503: Frederick and Elizabeth's first daughter, named Clara Helena, is born.

[pa_dutch]

Based on conversations with Glen, but Glen and pa_dutch, please comment/edit:

June 1498: After tense negotiations, Stadacona agrees to let the English set up a trading post. They choose a location just upriver from the island on which the major Stadacona settlement lies. It is called Fort Venture, and the mixed English-Iroquoian settlement that develops around it is called "Red Slope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap-Rouge%2C_Quebec)."

March 1500: Encouraged by the Stadacona's excellent relationship with the English, the Hochelega eagerly allow a trading post near their settlement. The crew quickly settles on a magnificent natural harbor (http://www.vieux.montreal.qc.ca/plaque/horizon/eng/ruptura.htm). It is originally known as Fall Line, for being located as far inland as any oceangoing ship can reach. Later, when word of John Cabot's death reaches the crew, they change the name to Cabot Harbor.

April 1501: The first Native-European marriage takes place in Red Slope. The ceremony is mostly Catholic, but the priest accords great respect to "the curious customs of these Eden-like people." The Stadacona woman takes on the name Rebecca Smith, while the Englishman takes on the name Karaken ('white one').

If we want the development of a fully-Native American developed script, it might be better to have the Iroquois establish English contact later on, like the Wabanaki do, right? Perhaps move these events forward by at eight years?

[Tom Veil]

I was thinking about that. The English influence would do really weird things to a logographic language -- on the one hand, it would be interesting to explore, on the other hand, I am totally not qualified to predict how it would turn out. Glen, any thoughts?

[pa_dutch]

There's no question the English would have an inevitable influence on the language, but I think the Iroquois should at least embrace their own written language before being exposed to Latin script. Otherwise, why wouldn't the Iroquois just adopt Latin script instead?

[The Sicilian]

Naples

1500: Leonardo Da Vinci moves to Messina to become a professor at the Messina Academy. He teaches a wide variety of subjects including engineering, anatomy and natural philosophy.

[Keenir]

There's no question the English would have an inevitable influence on the language, but I think the Iroquois should at least embrace their own written language before being exposed to Latin script. Otherwise, why wouldn't the Iroquois just adopt Latin script instead?

maybe some adopt Latin instead...maybe the Iroquois script is Latinized (or Latin script is Iroquois-ized)

[Keenir]

Domestic:
1508 - Marriage of Barbara, daughter of Philip the Upright, Elector of the Palatine.

1509 - Marriage of Helene, daughter of Philip the Upright, Elector of the Palatine.

Marrying two of his daughters to the biggest patriarchs of the Rhenish free cities helps, but just as big (if not a bigger) factor was the Elector’s ordering the construction (on his nickel) of new/repaired churches for all those cities who wished one built/repaired (the ‘/’ denotes, basically, “whichever was more in need”)…The end result is the free cities come under Philip’s umbrella of protective authority.

At the final meeting of the Thirds (the Wendish, Rhenish, Teutonic Knights) before the dawn of the 1510 decade, Philip assures the heads of the Hansa that these cities are still free cities. The churches and cathedrals built and repaired, mind, are staunchly pro-Papacy, pointedly denouncing the teachings of Wettin.

[Keenir]

Domestic:
With all of his borders quiet, Emperor Bayezid and Emperor Ahmed did not meddle with what clearly worked just fine.

Fall 1496 – 1519: In the Ottoman Empire, the recruiting and training of janissaries was not interrupted by the Janissary Civil War (ref: the War against the Mamluk). However, the Janissary Civil War *did* disrupt the flow of new janissaries; it had always been traditional for a young janissary, upon the completion of his training and education, to be an apprentice in another part of the Empire…ie, apprenticed to carpenters, shipbuilders, etc. What the Janissary Civil War did was leave a lot of apprentices in the field they were apprenticed to; over the next two decades, through a policy of what one might consider benign neglect, very few janissary apprentices were brought into the military after the end of their apprenticeship….and those few (anywhere from 1-10% depending on the year) were mostly to the border with the Kingdom of Jerusalem (see 1504)

1501: Emperor Ahmed orders that Bulgaria begin shipping large quantities of nails and hemp (for rope) to the shipyards in Galata and Gallipoli. In addition, he demands a large number of Roman-style shortswords be delivered to Constantinople. In the shipyards of the Empire, construction begins on more ships to supplement the ones presently at port and those on patrol.

Late 1501: Emperor Ahmed of the Ottoman Empire sends missives to the governors (ooc: and whomever else is in charge) of the Crimean, instructing them to grant freedom *of passage _through_ Crimea* to the Tsar of Russia and the Tsar’s army and navy…but also instructing the Crimeans to strike back at any Russian who lashes out at the Crimeans, particularly the honor of Crimean women. Encouragement is given to those Crimeans who volunteer to serve in the navies of the Russians (but only for the upcoming offensive) or the Ottomans.

1504: In the Ottoman Empire, al scaloccio (a technique wherein all the oarsmen on a single bench share a single oar) and galleasses are adopted from the Venetians and other Italian expatriots who’ve taken residence and service under the Sultan’s banner.

Construction begins in Galata and Gallipoli (in the Ottoman Empire) on galleons suitable for warfare. At the same time, janissaries are sent to lead local troops in preparation for battle – and they are sent to the border shared with the Kingdom of Jerusalem, every tent facing east.

1509: Emperor Ahmed calls for volunteers from every sanjak in the Empire; these men will form the nucleus of a series of settlements (and bases) along the Red Sea coast of Arabia. There will be no settlements in the Holy City, of course. Most of the settlers are Footmen and Exemptees.

[Tom Veil]

1506 November: The Haudenosaunee Council approves Hurit’s written version of the Gayanashagowa (http://www.indigenouspeople.net/iroqcon.htm), or Constitution. Each clan in each of the 7 nations now has at least one person who can read and write Waponahkiyik-form Iroquois.

[RCTFI]

Is he an OTL person?

No, he isn't, but he very well could be - things were chaotic at that time, and disatisfaction with the church as it was was widespread. Basically, he's the manifestation of a lot of OTL views.

Just let me know if Maxie's going to die eh? Succession could be...interesting.

Are there other Hapsburgs aside from Philip who might inherit Austria?
What's going on with the Widelsbachs in Bavaria?

I'm planning on having him die soon, but not too soon - he's going to get the Imperial Army up to snuff first, that and set up the situation for a possible break-up of the HRE...

[Keenir]

and set up the situation for a possible break-up of the HRE...

that will not be allowed.
(for one thing, its too easy)

[pompejus]

that will not be allowed.
(for one thing, its too easy)

Isn't it a good idea to create an HRE thread for discussing things that happen in the HRE? I would realy like to know when Max dies. It could be important for things happening in Burgundy.

[pompejus]

I would like to post these events that happen before 1510. They are mainly some births.

1502:
The second son of Philip of Burgundy is born. He is named Ferdinand.

1503:
The first daughter of Philip of Burgundy is born. She is named Eleanor.

1504:
The second daughter of Philip of Burgundy is born. She is named Isabella.

1506:
The third son of Philip of Burgundy is born. He is named Maximillian.

[Glen]

Based on conversations with Glen, but Glen and pa_dutch, please comment/edit:

June 1498: After tense negotiations, Stadacona agrees to let the English set up a trading post. They choose a location just upriver from the island on which the major Stadacona settlement lies. It is called Fort Venture, and the mixed English-Iroquoian settlement that develops around it is called "Red Slope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap-Rouge%2C_Quebec)."

March 1500: Encouraged by the Stadacona's excellent relationship with the English, the Hochelega eagerly allow a trading post near their settlement. The crew quickly settles on a magnificent natural harbor (http://www.vieux.montreal.qc.ca/plaque/horizon/eng/ruptura.htm). It is originally known as Fall Line, for being located as far inland as any oceangoing ship can reach. Later, when word of John Cabot's death reaches the crew, they change the name to Cabot Harbor.

April 1501: The first Native-European marriage takes place in Red Slope. The ceremony is mostly Catholic, but the priest accords great respect to "the curious customs of these Eden-like people." The Stadacona woman takes on the name Rebecca Smith, while the Englishman takes on the name Karaken ('white one').

The first two are great. My biggest concerns with the second are the presence of priests so early, and his 'great respect'.

On the other hand, you may say there is a monk who goes by the name "Brother John" who does basically the same....and yes, I know a marriage by a monk might be questionable....:rolleyes:

[Keenir]

On the other hand, you may say there is a monk who goes by the name "Brother John" who does basically the same....and yes, I know a marriage by a monk might be questionable....:rolleyes:

you see?!! the Wettinists are corrupting everything already!!!

:D;):D:cool:

[Glen]

If we want the development of a fully-Native American developed script, it might be better to have the Iroquois establish English contact later on, like the Wabanaki do, right? Perhaps move these events forward by at eight years?

I was thinking about that. The English influence would do really weird things to a logographic language -- on the one hand, it would be interesting to explore, on the other hand, I am totally not qualified to predict how it would turn out. Glen, any thoughts?

There's no question the English would have an inevitable influence on the language, but I think the Iroquois should at least embrace their own written language before being exposed to Latin script. Otherwise, why wouldn't the Iroquois just adopt Latin script instead?

maybe some adopt Latin instead...maybe the Iroquois script is Latinized (or Latin script is Iroquois-ized)

Logographic writing systems are interesting but difficult to learn, thus tend to be limited at first to the most educated parts of the population. On the otherhand, they can be used by people from different languages without having to know the verbal language.

You might see some latin letters used for spelling out words without logographs, while the native logographs are used by the leaders of the tribes as a written lingua franca among the indigenous tribes.

But this would be luck. Most likely outcome would be for the few people who know the nascent logographic language to be among the dead in the plagues sweeping the peoples, and a latin alphabet writing system being adopted in its wake. Then again, it takes only one person teaching to keep its memory alive....maybe to the far west, becoming isolated from the coastal areas by the wilderness left by depopulation, and thus can serve as a founder effect, developing the logographic system before coming into contact with the western writing systems sometime in the future.

[Glen]

that will not be allowed.
(for one thing, its too easy)

Says who? Remember he has the HRE. You may wish otherwise, but he can bring it down like a house of cards....

[Glen]

Naples

1500: Leonardo Da Vinci moves to Messina to become a professor at the Messina Academy. He teaches a wide variety of subjects including engineering, anatomy and natural philosophy.

Why?:confused::confused::confused:

[Glen]

No, he isn't, but he very well could be - things were chaotic at that time, and disatisfaction with the church as it was was widespread. Basically, he's the manifestation of a lot of OTL views.

Okay, then I suggest that you instead of giving him a specific name, use a nom de plume (or guerre) instead of a real name. Have it be that history does not record his birth name or early history.

[marl_d]

1509: A peasant brings his 7-year-old son, Alik, to the Knights of St Andrew. The Grand Master asks why he doesn’t send him to a Monastery instead, the father replies that he did but they threw him out because he kept escaping and was leading the other boys on “crusades” to route out the heathen Mongols. The boy is very intelligent and absorbs everything he’s learned, but is undisciplined and vivid imagination, and can’t be controlled. The Grand Master accepts the young Alik, and keeps an eye on the boy.

[The Sicilian]

Why?:confused::confused::confused:
Money and the oppurtunity to work on his inventions, probly.

But that was for a series of events which are thrown off by this Portugese war thingy, so you can discard it if you wish.

[Keenir]

Says who? Remember he has the HRE. You may wish otherwise, but he can bring it down like a house of cards....

then what's the point in playing a region within the HRE ?
the Emperor, around this time, had to listen to his nobles.

[Tom Veil]

The first two are great. My biggest concerns with the second are the presence of priests so early, and his 'great respect'.

On the other hand, you may say there is a monk who goes by the name "Brother John" who does basically the same....and yes, I know a marriage by a monk might be questionable....:rolleyes:

I will gladly change the Iroquois marriage entry in the way you describe. Unfortunately, when I tried to edit it, I got a message saying that the admin only allows editing within 120 minutes. I thought that restriction had been waived for this subforum. :confused:

[Glen]

I will gladly change the Iroquois marriage entry in the way you describe. Unfortunately, when I tried to edit it, I got a message saying that the admin only allows editing within 120 minutes. I thought that restriction had been waived for this subforum. :confused:

Well, not waived, but extended to one week. I'll check with Ian on that.

[Glen]

then what's the point in playing a region within the HRE ?
the Emperor, around this time, had to listen to his nobles.

First, I will remind you its not 'playing' but 'writing'.

Second, to be in position to build something new on the ashes of the HRE?

Third, you are right, the Emperor does have to listen.

Fourth, you are welcome to try and bolster the HRE even as RCTFI crafts events that take a different turn....

[Keenir]

First, I will remind you its not 'playing' but 'writing'.

and in the context of this project, what's the difference? :confused:

Second, to be in position to build something new on the ashes of the HRE?

we're not even into the third decade after the divergence - what's the hurry to rip the Holy Roman Empire to shreds?

Fourth, you are welcome to try and bolster the HRE even as RCTFI crafts events that take a different turn....

I intend to.

after the Spanish-Portugese War, I would like to claim France.

[Glen]

and in the context of this project, what's the difference? :confused:

Subtle but important. This is not a game to be won or lost, but a timeline to be created. Therefore we need to try and collaborate more than compete (though some of that of course will happen naturally). The ultimate goal is to make a plausible divergent timeline from ours, not to 'win'.

we're not even into the third decade after the divergence - what's the hurry to rip the Holy Roman Empire to shreds?

What hurry? He didn't say when, did he?

I intend to.

After the Spanish-Portugese War, I would like to claim France.

Already claimed. Let's give Draco some time to surface, just like all the others. Though if he doesn't respond to PMs at least in the next few days, we are going to have to make some changes.

[Keenir]

Subtle but important. This is not a game to be won or lost, but a timeline to be created. Therefore we need to try and collaborate more than compete

so...why are you allowing the present war? why not force Portugal and Spain to collaborate?
:rolleyes:;)

What hurry? He didn't say when, did he?

I doubt he was referring to 1815. :)

Already claimed. Let's give Draco some time to surface, just like all the others. Though if he doesn't respond to PMs at least in the next few days, we are going to have to make some changes.

okay....I said what I said because you're presently France for the war.

[Glen]

so...why are you allowing the present war? why not force Portugal and Spain to collaborate?
:rolleyes:;)

Wars are fine. Portugal and Spain need not collaborate at all. But Meltdown and AJ should collaborate on the course of that war, and if they can't agree, then it goes to the mods to determine.

I doubt he was referring to 1815. :)

Why don't you two talk about it? Then you need not guess.

okay....I said what I said because you're presently France for the war.

I am? Well....

[Glen]

Temporarily locking this thread so we can concentrate on the timeline review. Will open back up once we finish weeding the timeline we've got.
I'll be moving copies of the events here over to the timeline review as we get to the relevant years.

[Glen]

Temporarily locking this thread so we can concentrate on the timeline review. Will open back up once we finish weeding the timeline we've got.
I'll be moving copies of the events here over to the timeline review as we get to the relevant years.

Unlocking so people may help with the timeline review.

[Keenir]

I would like to add these (underlined) events:

The End Of The Mamluk War: (or we can simply eliminate the Mamluk War altogether)
The King of Naples is denied access to anything which could serve as a palace. A eunoch gives him the message that the King is welcome in Jerusalem in either of two forms: as a pilgrim passing through, and as a man willing to serve the Sublime Porte.

For now, the Knights are allowed to remain in the Ottoman province of Jerusalem.


The Expulsion of Shia from White Sheep Persia:

Emperor Ahmed allows Shia refugees into the Ottoman Empire, settling most of them in the provinces of Jerusalem, Syria, and the swath between them and Persia.


1503:
Mediterranean Sea:
Venice steps up its attacks on Genoan settlements and depots. (If any of Genoa’s allies try to confront the Venetian ships, they find the Venetians retreat to the company of Ottoman naval craft sitting in open water)

Ottoman Empire:
Emperor Ahmed, taken aback by the rumors that he has a cousin, fires off a message to Grand Master DAubusson. Ahmed both demands confirmation/negation of these rumors, and demands that the boy be brought to Constantinople.

1503 August-December:
Black Sea:
The Genoan ports in the Crimea and elsewhere in the Black Sea are shelled to a state of ruin; again, the Venetians (under Ottoman protection) are responsible.

Ottoman Empire:
The Emperor is impatiently awaiting the arrival of the alledged son of Cem the Pretender.

1504:
DAubusson, alarmed by these events, returns to Rhodes, and promises to consider native rule for Rhodes when Constantine comes of age. In the meantime, DAubusson takes the boy as his ward, with the previso that he will be raised an Orthodox Christian. Requests are sent to Constantinople asking for Orthodox spiritual advisors to be sent to the boy. The situation on Rhodes calms, and jubilant Greeks begin anticipating the day when Rhodean independence will (hopefully) come.


Ottoman Empire & Mediterranean Sea:
When further messages to DAubusson go unanswered, Ahmed orders his navy (and calling in the big favor the doge and council of Venice now owe him) to blockade Rhodes.

In the province of Jerusalem, members of the Knights of Rhodes are placed under protective custody - by force where neccessary.


1505: Ottoman Empire:
Emperor Ahmed enters seclusion to devote himself to his favorite pastime: hunting. Prince Isa becomes Emperor.


Isa sends missives to Moldovia and Wallachia regarding the appalling situation in Russia.

((side note: Vasili's not welcome in Constantinople...unless he's asking for help in turning the Crimeans on Vasili's heretic relative's forces & supporters))

[The Sicilian]

Jerusalem is not a province of the Ottoman Empire. It is a Kingdom, ruled by Italians, under the blessing of the Ottoman Sultan.

The Ottomans have no authority over the Knights, much less to arrest them.

I question the logic of blockading Rhodes. The Ottomans and Rhodeans were allies less than a decade ago. Why the sudden change of mind??

[Keenir]

Jerusalem is not a province of the Ottoman Empire. It is a Kingdom, ruled by Italians, under the blessing of the Ottoman Sultan.

it is not a kingdom, as that event was revised.

I question the logic of blockading Rhodes. The Ottomans and Rhodeans were allies less than a decade ago. Why the sudden change of mind??

the Knights have cut all communications, it seems, and refused to answer questions posed to them -- therefore, they are classed as supporters of Cem the Pretender, via Cem's son.

[The Sicilian]

it is not a kingdom, as that event was revised. Okay, I'm feeling like a broken record. When was this done? What thread/post? Why exactly was this done? Why was I not informed?

the Knights have cut all communications, it seems, and refused to answer questions posed to them -- therefore, they are classed as supporters of Cem
OE's sudden declaration of war against an ally would alienate their allies, esp. Christian ones.

[Keenir]

Okay, I'm feeling like a broken record. When was this done? What thread/post?

this thread - 109. and the Second Drafts Thread for 1501-1510.

Why exactly was this done?

our moderator values plausibility.

Why was I not informed?

only because it was spur-of-the-moment and last-minute.

OE's sudden declaration of war against an ally would alienate their allies, esp. Christian ones.

defense, not war.

what allies? AJNolte told me that DAubusson is on his deathbed & the other Knights won't be as hospitable or polite; Abdul pointed out that the Knights were teh Ottomans' enemies bar none; Moldovia and Wallachia are my vassals; and I've got plans for Russia.

[The Sicilian]

this thread - 109. and the Second Drafts Thread for 1501-1510.
Right. The post that has started our bickering. The one that I am disputing.
our moderator values plausibility.
Good for Glen. I’ve talked about the KoJ with him and he didn’t even hint towards the mass
erasure of events that you are describing.
defense, not war.

what allies? AJNolte told me that DAubusson is on his deathbed & the other Knights won't be as hospitable or polite; Abdul pointed out that the Knights were teh Ottomans' enemies bar none; Moldovia and Wallachia are my vassals; and I've got plans for Russia.
Last time I checked, the Rhodeans were not attacking you. But that isn’t my issue, so I’ll leave
that for AJ

[Keenir]

Good for Glen. I’ve talked about the KoJ with him and he didn’t even hint towards the mass
erasure of events that you are describing.

the way he spoke to me about it, I was left with the impression that mass erasure was the only solution.

[The Sicilian]

the way he spoke to me about it, I was left with the impression that mass erasure was the only solution.
Well then perhaps he has a split personality :eek::p:D!