1493 'International' Discussions 1500-1509

[Glen]

This is a place to discuss events that need approval from more than one participants' nations. You can do it in-character, out-of-character, what have you. If you still want to discuss things via PM, feel free. Also feel free to PM people to ask them to check stuff out here. Please check this thread frequently to see if someone is doing something that involves you. Also recommend that you work out 'joint events' here between yourselves before posting them in the 'first draft' thread. It will go a lot smoother if you all have agreed to something yourselves first before placing it there.

[Keenir]

(ooc: did someone sign up to be the Druze? if not, would anyone like to?)

[Glen]

(ooc: did someone sign up to be the Druze? if not, would anyone like to?)

I believe someone did. Check the Sign-Up thread.

[AJNolte]

(ooc: did someone sign up to be the Druze? if not, would anyone like to?)

I did: Druze and Maronites of the Lebanon.

[AJNolte]

This might be a good place to talk about the resolution of the Mamluk war.

[AJNolte]

I need a new Archbishop of Trier. Can the Pope perhaps help?

[Keenir]

This might be a good place to talk about the resolution of the Mamluk war.


Febuary 1500:
The construction of a special house – the Residence of John the Baptist, complete with its own muzzein and guards – is completed. This is the place in Constantinople where Emperor Ahmed of the Ottoman Empire will keep the hand of John the Baptist, the prophet who paved the way for the prophet Isa.

Ahmed charges his brother Prince Korkud with the upkeep of the Residence of John the Baptist and its guards.


April 1500:
Emperor Ahmed of the Ottoman Empire delivers a speech before those assembled before the gates of his palace, with copies of his speech sent to the Pope in Italy, the Pope in Cairo, DAubusson of the Knights of Rhodes, the Imams and tribal chiefs of the Druze communities, and the monarchs of Naples and Spain:

I, Ahmed Ibn-Bayezid, Emperor of the Roman Empire, Caliph of the Faithful, Shadow of God on Earth, heir to the Prophets, successor to Julius Caesar, do make the following notations to the layout of my land and those conquered lands.

I now strengthen the millet of the Druze, granting them self-rule within the Lebanon portion of my Empire to a greater degree than ever before. The Lebanon may administer its spiritual governance, though taxes/tribute still need be sent to Constantinople; in the matter of secular governance, appeals may be made to my august person. That in mind, I agree to promote the development of an Army of the Lebanon, led by Lebanese in battles against our mutual enemies.

To avoid the quibbling and squabbles which may lead to civil wars and invasions of a land I myself consider sacred, I hereby state that the Realm of Jerusalem is to be governed by the Latin Patriarch, and I leave it to my Catholic allies to settle amongst themselves which of them shall hold that post. For as long as there is peace in Jerusalem, I shall allow it autonomy (though the Patriarch must acknowledge my civil dominance of the landscape around him); should great violence break out, the armies of the Ottomans and the Druze shall be upon you. Also, Jerusalem must not bar the travel nor molest the Sunni travelers from my Empire, the Yemeni lands, nor Misir. Should any Christian man or Christian family wish to leave the Realm of Jerusalem, he and they must not be barred from leaving, nor his relatives harried; in return, I shall allow any Christian within my land to emigrate to Jerusalem if they so wish to do so. Lastly, the keys to the Church of the Sepulchre shall not be taken from the possession of the families to whom Salah-Al-Din (Saladin, as you call him) entrusted those keys to.

I shall approve a Coptic Christian to rule the conquered lands of Misir, upon the selection of a suitable candidate by his holiness the Pope of Cairo. I leave your self-governance in your own hands, for as long as you prove capable of doing so. Tribute shall be sent to Constantinople on a yearly basis; this is symbolic, so you remember that I can easily raise the amount if given cause – do not give me cause. Do not raise your hands or allow hands to be raised against the Sunnis in your land, as they are under my spiritual protection. Know that your trade shall primarily be with the Ottoman Empire, the merchants of Yemen, the Knights of Rhodes, and lastly, the Alodi. Lastly, I task the Coptic lord of Misir to raise an army loyal to Misir which will not raise arms against myself.

These are my words.

(ooc: he’s willing to be convinced otherwise, but these are the defaults he’ll do)



August 1500:
Emperor Ahmed of the Ottoman Empire has preparations begun for a campaign to clear any remaining traces of Mamluk rule from the Arab Peninsula.

[AJNolte]

Their Catholic Majesties--in token of his service to the cause of Christ--urge His Holiness to confirm Pierre DAubusson as Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem.

The 1500. Maronite "great pilgrimage' begins. Maronites descend from their mountains and resettle in Palestine. Most remaining Muslim Arabs decide to cross the Jordan River into more hospitable territories. Many also settle in Ghaza.

From: His Holiness Pierre DAubusson Grand-master, Knights of Rhodes to: Sultan Ahmed of the Ottomans and Alphonso, King of Napples, and Ferdinand and Isabella, their Catholic Majesties of Spain.

That peace might once again descend upon Fairest Jerusalem, I shall, speaking for the Knights of Rhodes, support most of the Sultan's positions. However, there remains the question of our Allies the Spanish and niapolitans. I therefore propose that Alphonso, king of Napples, be granted the title King in Jerusalem (as opposed to king of Jerusalem), which at once recognizes his pre-existing claim without giving him direct rule which might be injurious to future peace, and that he be paid the sum of 30,000 ducats, and that their Catholic Majesties be recognized as protectors of the holy places, and receive also a payment of 30,000 ducats, and that both of these sums should be raised from the trade, taxes and tithes of Jerusalem and, perhaps in part, from the treasury of Constantinople.

[AJNolte]

To: RCTFI and Pompages:
What the heck is going on with Gruningen? There was a rumor about Albert receiving it: is this still going to happen?

[Keenir]

From: His Holiness Pierre DAubusson Grand-master, Knights of Rhodes to: Sultan Ahmed of the Ottomans and Alphonso, King of Napples, and Ferdinand and Isabella, their Catholic Majesties of Spain.

That peace might once again descend upon Fairest Jerusalem, I shall, speaking for the Knights of Rhodes, support most of the Sultan's positions. However, there remains the question of our Allies the Spanish and niapolitans. I therefore propose that Alphonso, king of Napples, be granted the title King in Jerusalem (as opposed to king of Jerusalem), which at once recognizes his pre-existing claim without giving him direct rule which might be injurious to future peace, and that he be paid the sum of 30,000 ducats, and that their Catholic Majesties be recognized as protectors of the holy places, and receive also a payment of 30,000 ducats, and that both of these sums should be raised from the trade, taxes and tithes of Jerusalem and, perhaps in part, from the treasury of Constantinople.

a letter (a copy of which is going in the royal archives...thus in the timeline, right?)
still 1500:
From Sultan Ahmed to Grand-Master DAubusson:
"In" and "Of" can be switched, I grant you that. I shall be amenable to recognizing Alphonso be given the title "King Of Jerusalem" contingent upon the following conditions, which I trust you to relay to him in whatever manner you find best:
1) Alphonso recognize that I can summon him and his army to fight any non-Catholic and non-Orthodox enemy of mine.
2) Alphonso marry the daughter of my Grand Vizier.
3) their Catholic Majesties of Spain, the King of Naples, and the Pope in Rome recognize my claim to the title of Caesar of the Roman Empire. (in return for which, I agree to double the payment to 60,000 ducats from my treasury)

May God bless your endevours.

(ooc: in OTL, it wasn't until later in the 16th Century that an Ottoman Emperor was granted - by the Holy Roman Emperor - the title of Caesar)

[pompejus]

To: RCTFI and Pompages:
What the heck is going on with Gruningen? There was a rumor about Albert receiving it: is this still going to happen?

RCTFI said in the original claims thread that it would not butterfly away. He didn't post it (yet), so i did in the 1493 Retro Draft Events 1493-1499 (http://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=63690) thread.

[marl_d]

a letter (a copy of which is going in the royal archives...thus in the timeline, right?)
still 1500:
From Sultan Ahmed to Grand-Master DAubusson:
"In" and "Of" can be switched, I grant you that. I shall be amenable to recognizing Alphonso be given the title "King Of Jerusalem" contingent upon the following conditions, which I trust you to relay to him in whatever manner you find best:
1) Alphonso recognize that I can summon him and his army to fight any non-Catholic and non-Orthodox enemy of mine.
2) Alphonso marry the daughter of my Grand Vizier.
3) their Catholic Majesties of Spain, the King of Naples, and the Pope in Rome recognize my claim to the title of Caesar of the Roman Empire. (in return for which, I agree to double the payment to 60,000 ducats from my treasury)

May God bless your endevours.

(ooc: in OTL, it wasn't until later in the 16th Century that an Ottoman Emperor was granted - by the Holy Roman Emperor - the title of Caesar)

(OOC: How would you guys, meaning the board in general, think Ivan III would take this news. I personally think that he would not approve and would send out a letter stating that, maybe even threaten action. I base this primarily on Russia/Muscovy's claim of being the "Third Rome" and the use of the Title Tsar. and before anyone says anything about Ivan not actually titled Tsar, he and Vasily used the Tsar in correspondence and diplomatic relations. And while there was dispute over the actual meaning in the Laintized world over the true meaning, Peter I called himself Emperor in an attempt to clarify Russia's claim. even though later they did use the term as King, but at this point it's kinda mute. just looking for your guys' two cents :D :cool:)

[The Sicilian]

To: Ottoman Empire
I, Alponso, Second by That Name, By the Grace of God, King of Naples, Sicily and Jerusalem, accept most of these proposals.

I agree to sparing whatever forces in the region I can for your indeavours in the Holy Land and Lower Egypt {How abount and area between Syria and the West Bank of the Nile?}

I do not agree to marry your grand Vizier's daughter, as I already have a wife and us Roman Catholics do not practice the polygamy that your Sultan seems to enjoy. However, I am partial to having one of his daughters marry my youngest, Prince Alphonso.

I would be happy to recognize your claim to the Eastern Roman Emperorship in Constantinople. However, you must recognize the Western Roman Empire in Frankfurt.

[AJNolte]

(OOC: How would you guys, meaning the board in general, think Ivan III would take this news. I personally think that he would not approve and would send out a letter stating that, maybe even threaten action. I base this primarily on Russia/Muscovy's claim of being the "Third Rome" and the use of the Title Tsar. and before anyone says anything about Ivan not actually titled Tsar, he and Vasily used the Tsar in correspondence and diplomatic relations. And while there was dispute over the actual meaning in the Laintized world over the true meaning, Peter I called himself Emperor in an attempt to clarify Russia's claim. even though later they did use the term as King, but at this point it's kinda mute. just looking for your guys' two cents :D :cool:)

(OOC). Uh, yeah, not something he'll be taking lying down. Me thinks the duplicitous DAubusson might just "accidentally" let a copy slip into your hands to improve his bargaining position.
One note: while OTL there isn't a lot of evidence that DAubusson was a successful schemer, he unquestionably had a formidable mind and character, and I think it's reasonable for him to be as ruthless and tenacious in diplomacy as he was OTL in war, if he determined that diplomacy would be a more useful means of obtaining what he wanted.

(IC).

A letter from DAubusson to Mohammed:

Your Majesty:

While I understant that in fact much of what once was the Eastern Empire is now yours, I believe it might strain the Christian consciences of His Holiness and the great princes of Christendom to bestow such a title upon a Mohammedan. However, I believe that recognizing you as Caesar of the Mohammedans(Rex Mohamedanorum?) might be a reasonable compromise.

I shall inquire of King Alphonso as to the clause regarding his aid to you against your Non-Christian enemies (OOC) Misiano?

[AJNolte]

RCTFI said in the original claims thread that it would not butterfly away. He didn't post it (yet), so i did in the 1493 Retro Draft Events 1493-1499 (http://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=63690) thread.
I'd like to have Albert be killed in putting down an uprising in Gruningen in 1507 or 8. Can we work this out?

[AJNolte]

a letter (a copy of which is going in the royal archives...thus in the timeline, right?)
still 1500:
From Sultan Ahmed to Grand-Master DAubusson:
"In" and "Of" can be switched, I grant you that. I shall be amenable to recognizing Alphonso be given the title "King Of Jerusalem" contingent upon the following conditions, which I trust you to relay to him in whatever manner you find best:
1) Alphonso recognize that I can summon him and his army to fight any non-Catholic and non-Orthodox enemy of mine.
2) Alphonso marry the daughter of my Grand Vizier.
3) their Catholic Majesties of Spain, the King of Naples, and the Pope in Rome recognize my claim to the title of Caesar of the Roman Empire. (in return for which, I agree to double the payment to 60,000 ducats from my treasury)

May God bless your endevours.

(ooc: in OTL, it wasn't until later in the 16th Century that an Ottoman Emperor was granted - by the Holy Roman Emperor - the title of Caesar)


(OOC). Alphonso is already married, which I presume Ahmed would possibly have known. Would you like to substitute a different condition here? Perhaps one of his relatives can marry the daughter?

[The Sicilian]

I shall inquire of King Alphonso as to the clause regarding his aid to you against your Non-Christian enemies (OOC) Misiano?
One of his considtions was that e could summon my army. I have limited his ability to do that to a limited geographic area.

[The Sicilian]

(OOC). Alphonso is already married, which I presume Ahmed would possibly have known. Would you like to substitute a different condition here? Perhaps one of his relatives can marry the daughter?
I'll just butterfly away his wedding to that Borgia girl.

[AJNolte]

One of his considtions was that e could summon my army. I have limited his ability to do that to a limited geographic area.

Any objections to any other treaty clauses?

[The Sicilian]

Any objections to any other treaty clauses?
Nope. Loads of cash, spiffy titles, nominal overlordship over Jerusalem. Not a bad crusade:cool::D

[Keenir]

IC).

A letter from DAubusson to Mohammed:

Your Majesty:

While I understant that in fact much of what once was the Eastern Empire is now yours, I believe it might strain the Christian consciences of His Holiness and the great princes of Christendom to bestow such a title upon a Mohammedan. However, I believe that recognizing you as Caesar of the Mohammedans(Rex Mohamedanorum?) might be a reasonable compromise.

a letter from Ahmed to DAubusson:

I would accept the title of "Rex Islam, Caesar of the Muslims" if such recognition comes.

[Keenir]

To: Ottoman Empire
I, Alponso, Second by That Name, By the Grace of God, King of Naples, Sicily and Jerusalem, accept most of these proposals.

I agree to sparing whatever forces in the region I can for your indeavours in the Holy Land and Lower Egypt {How abount and area between Syria and the West Bank of the Nile?}

I do not agree to marry your grand Vizier's daughter, as I already have a wife and us Roman Catholics do not practice the polygamy that your Sultan seems to enjoy. However, I am partial to having one of his daughters marry my youngest, Prince Alphonso.

I would be happy to recognize your claim to the Eastern Roman Emperorship in Constantinople. However, you must recognize the Western Roman Empire in Frankfurt.

To: Alponso, Second by That Name, By the Grace of God, King of Naples, Sicily and Jerusalem:
From: Ahmed, Shadow of God on Earth, heir to the Prophet, Emperor of Anatolia and Rumeli, the Final Authority to the Druze and Coptic nations:

A military matter first -- my greatest concern for the Realm of Jerusalem, which you now govern, is that the Persians to your west might strike at you. As they would pass through my lands first, I would meet them in battle; however, I wish to know your thoughts as to what you might do should such a day arrives.

I shall send my Vizier's finest daughter (educated in the Seraglio in poetry, literature and song) with this letter, guarded by my most trusted soldiers who shall go no further than the door of your residence, entrusting from that point the young lady to your care.

I recognize your feelings: truly did the Prophet (pbuh) say that a man should only have more than one wife if he can treat each equally to one another; as a married man, I recognize your humility in having only one. I wish your wife a blessed life and good health all of her life; that said, should you find yourself one day to be a widower, let me know, and I shall find you a suitable companion.

With gladness in my heart and a smile on my face, I recognize my Imperial Roman brother in Frankfurt. Please relay my invitation to him that, should any member of your or his families fall ill, they are welcome to avail themselves of the warmth and medicines of my realm.

May God smile upon you all your days, and may He bless you and all which is yours on Earth.

[Glen]

A military matter first -- my greatest concern for the Realm of Jerusalem, which you now govern, is that the Persians to your west might strike at you. As they would pass through my lands first, I would meet them in battle; however, I wish to know your thoughts as to what you might do should such a day arrives.

Persians? Are you sure there are Persians there?:rolleyes:;)

On a separate matter. I suspect the message from the Ottoman Emperor on the terms for the Kingdom of Jerusalem would also make specific reference to the status and safeguarding of the third holiest site in Islam....

[The Sicilian]

To: Alponso, Second by That Name, By the Grace of God, King of Naples, Sicily and Jerusalem:
From: Ahmed, Shadow of God on Earth, heir to the Prophet, Emperor of Anatolia and Rumeli, the Final Authority to the Druze and Coptic nations:

A military matter first -- my greatest concern for the Realm of Jerusalem, which you now govern, is that the Persians to your west might strike at you. As they would pass through my lands first, I would meet them in battle; however, I wish to know your thoughts as to what you might do should such a day arrives.
I would defend the shrines, temples and holy places of all three religions with my own life, should the Persian barbarians arrive at the gates of Holy land

I shall send my Vizier's finest daughter (educated in the (harem) in poetry, literature and song) with this letter, guarded by my most trusted soldiers who shall go no further than the door of your residence, entrusting from that point the young lady to your care.
I am sure young Alphonso will be delighted. She will join the Christain faith and be baptized Maria Christina

I recognize your feelings: truly did the Prophet (pbuh) say that a man should only have more than one wife if he can treat each equally to one another; as a married man, I recognize your humility in having only one. I wish your wife a blessed life and good health all of her life; that said, should you find yourself one day to be a widower, let me know, and I shall find you a suitable companion.

I can assure you, dear Sultan-Caliph-Emperor, that the cities and fields of Sicily and Naples are so overflowing with beautiful and healthy ladies that even your seemingly insatiable appetite for wives could be filled;).


With gladness in my heart and a smile on my face, I recognize my Imperial Roman brother in Frankfurt. Please relay my invitation to him that, should any member of your or his families fall ill, they are welcome to avail themselves of the warmth and medicines of my realm.
I am sure that he welcomes you as his Roman brother {A Turk and a German, both claiming to be the heirs to a Italian empire :confused:}.
May God smile upon you all your days, and may He bless you and all which is yours on Earth.

And may the Lord bless you with His grace and favor.

Out of character: Does anyone else feel that this touchy-feely stuff between the Christians and Muslims is getting a bit improbable (although Im not saying that I didn't just raise the leval). We did, after all, just conclude a Holy War.

[Keenir]

Persians? Are you sure there are Persians there?:rolleyes:;)

he needed something to keep the King of Jerusalem in line...since I think the White Sheep and Black Sheep Turks are too far away at the moment.:):cool:

On a separate matter. I suspect the message from the Ottoman Emperor on the terms for the Kingdom of Jerusalem would also make specific reference to the status and safeguarding of the third holiest site in Islam....

that was in the initial speech: that no Muslim from the Ottoman Empire, Misir, or Yemen would be barred or molested in their journey to Jerusalem.
(and the Sultan's got an army backing up these words)

[Glen]

he needed something to keep the King of Jerusalem in line...since I think the White Sheep and Black Sheep Turks are too far away at the moment.:):cool:



that was in the initial speech: that no Muslim from the Ottoman Empire, Misir, or Yemen would be barred or molested in their journey to Jerusalem.
(and the Sultan's got an army backing up these words)

Yes, but who's in charge of the Rock?

[RCTFI]

In October 1500, the Swiss Cantons moved further towards independence and decisive seperation than than the Emperor was comfortable with. Maximilian I, who remembered the humiliation of his father's reign, a time spent in flight, battles constantly lost, could not help but to feel hesitant as he contemplated this most recent event.
Perhaps that fear of repeating his father's failure's inspired his acts - perhaps he merely underestimated his enemies. Reguardless, he sent a force of 4,500 men, mostly raw recruits, under a general he did not truly know, to supress the revolt. In late October, it marched into the Swiss Alps...

[Glen]

In October 1500, the Swiss Cantons moved further towards independence and decisive seperation than than the Emperor was comfortable with. Maximilian I, who remembered the humiliation of his father's reign, a time spent in flight, battles constantly lost, could not help but to feel hesitant as he contemplated this most recent event.
Perhaps that fear of repeating his father's failure's inspired his acts - perhaps he merely underestimated his enemies. Reguardless, he sent a force of 4,500 men, mostly raw recruits, under a general he did not truly know, to supress the revolt. In late October, it marched into the Swiss Alps...

Actually, I suggest that you might find more problem in the Tyrol and that western part of Brixen so early in your reign....:rolleyes:

[AJNolte]

If the Pope will sign off on DAubusson as Patriarch of Jerusalem and Ahmed as Rex Islam that is. The Rhodeans have no objection to the Muslims maintaining their shrine at the Dome of the Rock; not like it's a Christian holy sight after all.

(OOC). The Christian leaders have come out of this little crusade rather well, partially because of their alliance with the Muslims. I think a certain willingness to deal with them makes sense. There will be a backlash however; I suspect that more militant segments of the Knights of Rhodes may splinter off and found their own crusading order. As for the Muslims, Ahmed may face problems for being seen to "bow before Christian interests"--I actually think recognition by the Pope might hurt him in this regard--but given that he's looking to be quite an able ruler, he can probably handle it.

[Keenir]

(OOC). The Christian leaders have come out of this little crusade rather well, partially because of their alliance with the Muslims. I think a certain willingness to deal with them makes sense.

OOC: I wonder what would've happened if Ahmed had demanded all of the Jews of Naples (and everywhere else the Spanish Jews were invited to in this ATL) be turned over to the Ottomans.

There will be a backlash however; I suspect that more militant segments of the Knights of Rhodes may splinter off and found their own crusading order. As for the Muslims, Ahmed may face problems for being seen to "bow before Christian interests"--I actually think recognition by the Pope might hurt him in this regard--but given that he's looking to be quite an able ruler, he can probably handle it.

OOC: in OTL, Anatolia had a number of revolts in the 1510s and the latter part of the preceeding decade -- so this'll strengthen their hand.
and thank you for the compliment.

[The Sicilian]

The Sicilians have a history of tolerating and dealing with Muslims, going back to the de Hauteville kings, so I think my realm will be comparitivly immune to a large violent backlash.

[AJNolte]

OOC: I wonder what would've happened if Ahmed had demanded all of the Jews of Naples (and everywhere else the Spanish Jews were invited to in this ATL) be turned over to the Ottomans.



OOC: in OTL, Anatolia had a number of revolts in the 1510s and the latter part of the preceeding decade -- so this'll strengthen their hand.
and thank you for the compliment.

(OOC). I think Misiano would declare war on you; he's quite attached to the Abrabinal family. Now that you mention it, I think DAubusson might, given his more successful latter years, not expel the Rhodean Jews. The influence of King Alphonso might help here as well. But I'm not planning to let anyone steal any more Jews from any realms I claim without major territorial concessions or the lives of your first-born! <g>

[AJNolte]

Given the hyperactivity of Rhodes and the Hansa (not to mention Spain and the Saxonies) and his able work in the other Christian realms in the area, I'm going to let my co-regent Aussie handle things in Kongo for the time being, as we were planning to collaborate here anyway. You can assume that stuff he posts for Kongo has been cleared with me.

[The Sicilian]

(OOC). I think Misiano would declare war on you; he's quite attached to the Abrabinal family.
Yes, I like my Jews:D

But I'm not planning to let anyone steal any more Jews from any realms I claim without major territorial concessions or the lives of your first-born! <g>
Then may the Lord strike down young Ferdinand!:D:rolleyes:

[Tom Veil]

Is anyone other than Glen's English planning to send explorers to the Atlantic coast of North America during 1500-1509?

[AJNolte]

Is anyone other than Glen's English planning to send explorers to the Atlantic coast of North America during 1500-1509?


Assuming he doesn't declare war on me for doing so, I'd like to send some Hansa trade missions, or Hansa traders or factors swearing loyalty to the crown establishing Hansa trading posts. I'm not positive though.

[AJNolte]

Yes, I like my Jews:D


Then may the Lord strike down young Ferdinand!:D:rolleyes:

Are the few Think carefully; are the Jews of Saxony, Rhodes and the Hansa cities really worth risking your son's life!

However, now that you mention it, a minor cadet branch of the Abrabinal family establishing itself within the now wide-ranging Hanseatic league isn't a bad idea.

[The Sicilian]

Are the few Think carefully; are the Jews of Saxony, Rhodes and the Hansa cities really worth risking your son's life!

However, now that you mention it, a minor cadet branch of the Abrabinal family establishing itself within the now wide-ranging Hanseatic league isn't a bad idea.
Get your own wealthy Jewish banking clan!:p:rolleyes:

[Keenir]

Get your own wealthy Jewish banking clan!:p:rolleyes:

don't make me stop this Middle East and separate you too!
:D:):cool:

[The Sicilian]

don't make me stop this Middle East and separate you too!
:D:):cool:
Bah! It's okay, Sicily and Spain are best friends, and blood relatives.:cool:

[Glen]

Is anyone other than Glen's English planning to send explorers to the Atlantic coast of North America during 1500-1509?

Tom, isn't England enough for you? We've invented toothbrushes even!:rolleyes:

[Glen]

March 1501: Sultan Ahmed of the Ottoman Empire sends one of his sisters (still in her early twenties) to the Khan of the Krimea, in appreciation for Krimea's loyalty.

Late April 1501: Sultan Ahmed of the Ottoman Empire sends an embassy (led by his older sister, who's in her early or mid thirties) to the lord of the White Sheep Turks, with the intention of opening relations between the White Sheep and Ottoman Turks.

She will be well received by the White Sheep Turks. What will she do in our lands?

[Keenir]

She will be well received by the White Sheep Turks. What will she do in our lands?

OOC: well, mostly, be at the head of the embassy. if the White Sheep Turks' ruler wishes for her to marry him, she will.

[Aussey]

How long does it take for a ship from southern Africa to reach Europe at this time?

[Aussey]

rough outline:
THIS WILL INVOLVE BASICALLY ALL OF EUROPE...

1500 April: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets with the Portugese Court.

1500 May: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets with Neapolitan-Sicilian-Jerusalemite Court.

1500 Summer: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets His Holiness the Pope and stays a while to discuss the furthering of Catholicism and Italian politics in southern Africa.

1500 Fall: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets heads-of-state and tours the Holy Roman Empire

1500 November: Prince João-Baptista meets with Scandinavian and Hanseatic members.

1500 Winter: Prince João-Baptista stays the Winter in England before returning to southern Africa, with treaties, trade, and treasures from across Europe.

[Smaug]

1506. The Zaque of Hunza increases the propigation of coca. The newly conquered territories are smitten by the leaf, and appear to willing to spend anything for it. The revenues due to this, and the ongoing monopoly in the salt trade nicely line the pockets of the Zaque. He builds up the infrastructure of his territories, in particlular the defenses of his economic hubs.

Any feedback on the last two posts would be much appreciated.

[Keenir]

DuQuense has an excellent point: how much of the Mamluk area exactly was conquered?

[BlackMage]

To: John

The Yolgnu Nation offer Majahapit a trade and military alliance, as of 1502.

[DuQuense]

July 8, 1497: Da Gama leaves Lisbon
December 16, 1497: Da Gama passes White River and begins to round the Cape of Good Hope
It took Da Gama 6 months to sail from lisbon to the Cape good hope

[AJNolte]

Get your own wealthy Jewish banking clan!:p:rolleyes:

I was thinking only of the ways in which it might facilitate your trade of course. <g>

[AJNolte]

rough outline:
THIS WILL INVOLVE BASICALLY ALL OF EUROPE...

1500 April: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets with the Portugese Court.

1500 May: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets with Neapolitan-Sicilian-Jerusalemite Court.

1500 Summer: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets His Holiness the Pope and stays a while to discuss the furthering of Catholicism and Italian politics in southern Africa.

1500 Fall: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets heads-of-state and tours the Holy Roman Empire

1500 November: Prince João-Baptista meets with Scandinavian and Hanseatic members.

1500 Winter: Prince João-Baptista stays the Winter in England before returning to southern Africa, with treaties, trade, and treasures from across Europe.

Ahem: Spain?

[AJNolte]

DuQuense has an excellent point: how much of the Mamluk area exactly was conquered?

The Alodi took several cities in Egypt and, from what Ramero wrote, the Egyptians were devastated. I got the impression that the whole thing waslost. However, we could ignore the stuff re: the Copts and have a rump Mamluk state in Egypt for a while if this appears more plausible.

[Aussey]

rough outline:
THIS WILL INVOLVE BASICALLY ALL OF EUROPE...
I need all these nation to PM me so we can discuss, uh, the discussions!

1500 April: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets with the Portugese Court.

1500 May: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets with Neapolitan-Sicilian-Jerusalemite Court.

1500 Summer: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets His Holiness the Pope and stays a while to discuss the furthering of Catholicism and Italian politics in southern Africa.

1500 Fall: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets heads-of-state and tours the Holy Roman Empire

1500 November: Prince João-Baptista meets with Scandinavian and Hanseatic members.

1500 Winter: Prince João-Baptista stays the Winter in England

1501 March: Prince João-Baptista returns to Portugal, and travels by land to meet Their Catholic Majesties of Spain, before returning to southern Africa, with treaties, trade, and treasures from across Europe.

[AJNolte]

Aussie:

I think it would make sense for Aphonso of Kongo to take a similar trip a year or two later. I'll be happy to chat with you re: Spain and the Hansa. Oh, you'll also be meeting some Rhodeans as well, so we can talk about that.

[Keenir]

Ahem: Spain?

so in other words, they skipped both of the richest nations in Europe.

oi, at least the Ottomans could be dismissed on grounds of religion and distance. ;)

[AJNolte]

so in other words, they skipped both of the richest nations in Europe.

oi, at least the Ottomans could be dismissed on grounds of religion and distance. ;)

Err, well, in fairness, it seems as though his route took him in the opposite direction. But a contact with your emissaries--or a quick jaunt to one of your territories--spinning off of his Jerusalem visit might not go amiss.

[VulcanTrekkie45]

rough outline:
THIS WILL INVOLVE BASICALLY ALL OF EUROPE...
I need all these nation to PM me so we can discuss, uh, the discussions!

1500 April: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets with the Portugese Court.

1500 May: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets with Neapolitan-Sicilian-Jerusalemite Court.

1500 Summer: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets His Holiness the Pope and stays a while to discuss the furthering of Catholicism and Italian politics in southern Africa.

1500 Fall: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets heads-of-state and tours the Holy Roman Empire

1500 November: Prince João-Baptista meets with Scandinavian and Hanseatic members.

1500 Winter: Prince João-Baptista stays the Winter in England

1501 March: Prince João-Baptista returns to Portugal, and travels by land to meet Their Catholic Majesties of Spain, before returning to southern Africa, with treaties, trade, and treasures from across Europe.

How's about the Moldavians and Wallachians?

[Keenir]

Err, well, in fairness, it seems as though his route took him in the opposite direction.

sorry - I was trying to make a joke: the Ethiopians missed Spain (large and rich, and right at the doorway to Europe from the Atlantic), as opposed to missing the Ottomans (large and rich, and on the other end of Europe)

But a contact with your emissaries--or a quick jaunt to one of your territories--spinning off of his Jerusalem visit might not go amiss.

I would not turn away such distinguished guests.

[Aussey]

so in other words, they skipped both of the richest nations in Europe.

oi, at least the Ottomans could be dismissed on grounds of religion and distance. ;)

Honestly, I completely forgot about Spain because when I was thinking of condottierro's Iberic Union, and, yeah...haha...ahhh ME5, was it?

and the Ottomans

maybe if they have closer territory?

[Aussey]

How's about the Moldavians and Wallachians?

At the far ends of Eastern Europe?!
They would think that a black person was the devil himself!
Do they even know Africa exists? Let alone, Catholic Africans!

haha.

maybe once we send permanent ambassadors, the one to the Ottomans will establish relations with you guys as well...

[AJNolte]

Can you write up a subsequent visit by Aphonso of Kongo, or do you want me to do it?

[Aussey]

Can you write up a subsequent visit by Aphonso of Kongo, or do you want me to do it?

Like in 1505?

[AJNolte]

Like in 1505?

That would be fine. I don't think Kongo would want to be upstaged by it's upstart neighbor, ally or no.

[Keenir]

At the far ends of Eastern Europe?!
They would think that a black person was the devil himself!
Do they even know Africa exists?

probably they'd think "wait, you're not a eunoch?
;)

[Aussey]

probably they'd think "wait, you're not a eunoch?
;)

Well, since the visit is now going to Jerusalem, expect Ndongolese coming to areas near you, soon!

[AJNolte]

The cities of the Wendish Federation welcome HRH warmly on both of his visits, and Luebeck and Hamburg each hold lavish banquits in his honor. Struck by the exotic majesty of the Africans, young Wendish merchants begin dreaming of far-off places. Promises of much mutually beneficial trade are exchanged.

[AJNolte]

Their Catholic Majesties welcome HRH warmly, stunned to find that Christianity and civilization have advanced so far in Black Africa. Several Spanish adventurers and soldiers--some fresh from two reconquistas--agree to return to NDongo as military advisors, while another party travels to Kongo for the same purpose. These adventurers have the tacite backing of their Catholic majesties. The cities of the Wendish Federation welcome HRH warmly on both of his visits, and Luebeck and Hamburg each hold lavish banquits in his honor. Struck by the exotic majesty of the Africans, young Wendish merchants begin dreaming of far-off places. Promises of much mutually beneficial trade are exchanged.

[AJNolte]

In Jerusalem, DAubusson greets HRH warmly, and bestows many rich gifts and relics upon him. DAubusson sees possible establishments of Rhodean commandries in Ndongo and Kongo as a means of getting rid of some of his more hot-headed knights, who have begun to question DAubusson's diplomatic tack. Some hard crusading in Africa might do them some good. So he offers HRH the establishment of a commandry in Ndongo, and asks him to convey a similar offer to Joao of Kongo--an offer which Joao will ultimately accept.

[Keenir]

The Rhenish cities are holding a feast day on one of the visits of HRH, and a fasting day on the other visit; despite this, the Rhenish notables are pleased to be invited to be on hand at the Elector's residence when HRH is present.

A lottery had been held throughout the Rhenish lands, to determine just who would be selected to sit next to the Elector and HRH, (and a seat left empty, in case the Holy Roman Emperor decided to arrive fashionably late); the winner of the lottery, all are foretold, would be asked to give up his most prized possession at the feast. The winner of the lottery is a farmer, who presents his bull* to HRH.



OOC:
* = male cow, not a papal document. :)

[Keenir]

In Constantinople, Sultan Ahmed recieves HRH and HRH's entourage in the throne room used by Ahmed's father and the Byzantine predecessors of Bayezid. HRH is granted permission to pray (however she pleases to) in the Aya Sofya, and is given the signal honour of being nearly the only person in the room with the hand of John the Baptist (Prince Korkud being the only other soul present).

From there, she is taken to the district of Seljuk, where she is shown the Cave of the Seven Sleepers in the hometown of Paul of Tarsus, and then to the final residence of Mary mother of Christ. By then on the coast, HRH is seen off in grand style by the commoners and pashas alike, in addition to Sultan Ahmed.

[Aussey]

In Constantinople, Sultan Ahmed recieves HRH and HRH's entourage in the throne room used by Ahmed's father and the Byzantine predecessors of Bayezid. HRH is granted permission to pray (however she pleases to) in the Aya Sofya, and is given the signal honour of being nearly the only person in the room with the hand of John the Baptist (Prince Korkud being the only other soul present).

From there, she is taken to the district of Seljuk, where she is shown the Cave of the Seven Sleepers in the hometown of Paul of Tarsus, and then to the final residence of Mary mother of Christ. By then on the coast, HRH is seen off in grand style by the commoners and pashas alike, in addition to Sultan Ahmed.

It's a he. A prince tends to be male.

[Glen]

What, none of our North American nations on the coast want to collaborate on first contacts with the Cabot Expedition?:(

[AJNolte]

What, none of our North American nations on the coast want to collaborate on first contacts with the Cabot Expedition?:(


Speaking of collaboration, how about that marriage?

[Glen]

Speaking of collaboration, how about that marriage?

Remind me again? Are you talking about Cathy and Art? Oh yeah, that's going to happen, just too busy to post yet.

[AJNolte]

Remind me again? Are you talking about Cathy and Art? Oh yeah, that's going to happen, just too busy to post yet.

Glenn:
Yeah, that one. If you want me to post the actual marriage I'll be happy to, and you can just take it from there.

Cathy and Art: makes them sound so...homey.

[rameiro]

((To clear things up: Mameluke forces were busy in their ongoing attempt to secure the Barbary Coast, which still has not yet been subdued. The Alodi were thought to be a grudgingly pieceful protectorate until the Alodi king secured a friendship with the Rhodeans who helped the Alodi sandwich the week home guard of the Mamelukes. The Mameluke sultan was forced to cede the historical region of Upper Egypt (including the major cities of Aswan and Luxor) to the Alodi which leaves the Muslim ruled countries of Norbatia and Makuria between Christian Alodia and Alodian territories in Nubian Country.))

[Glen]

Glenn:
Yeah, that one. If you want me to post the actual marriage I'll be happy to, and you can just take it from there.

Cathy and Art: makes them sound so...homey.

Does, doesn't it?

Yeah, you can go ahead and post the wedding if you'd like. That would help me, actually.

[Tom Veil]

What, none of our North American nations on the coast want to collaborate on first contacts with the Cabot Expedition?:(
As I understand it, Cabot reached the mouths of the Hudson River and Chesapeake Bay, but didn't sail up either one. Therefore, my nations know nothing beyond rumors.

[marl_d]

just out of curiosity, what European Explores to the New World are there so far? has it just been Columbus and Cabot or are their others?

[Keenir]

It's a he. A prince tends to be male.

sorry, typo; I guess I'm so used to it standing for "Her Royal Highness".

[pompejus]

I'd like to have Albert be killed in putting down an uprising in Gruningen in 1507 or 8. Can we work this out?

I see no reason why we can't, what are your ideas?

[Glen]

As I understand it, Cabot reached the mouths of the Hudson River and Chesapeake Bay, but didn't sail up either one. Therefore, my nations know nothing beyond rumors.

Actually, First the St Laurence, then the Hudson, and then the Chesapeake. they did sail a ways up them, but not so much that they would have run into you, this is true.

Guess you'll just have to take the word of the Mohicans.

[Glen]

just out of curiosity, what European Explores to the New World are there so far? has it just been Columbus and Cabot or are their others?

So far I believe those are the only ones, at least until the 1500s.

[Glen]

OOC: Glen, taking your advice...

IC:

In 1500, Maximilian I finds his newly acquired Emperorship already slipping away as the southern parts of the Empire, Switzerland and Tyrol, begin to seem out of hand. Frustrated, he orders one of his generals to take 4,500 men to the border of the Swiss Confederacy, while he himself takes a larger army into Tyrol.
In Tyrol, he allows his troops to do as they please, something which alienates the locals - soon what little support he had in that region is evaporating, and the Tyrolians are calling for Switzerland to come to their aid.
At the same time, Heinrich Schneider is getting out of hand, acquiring more and more support, while at the same time becoming more and more extreme in his views. When he issues a sermon that seems highly critical of the local bishop, and that sermon is greeted by cheers from a huge crowd, the bishop and the conventional clergy begin to become nervous. As some low ranking priests begin to join Heinrich Schneider in his views, his support within the local nobility begins to weaken. However, by that point he no longer needs that support - on November 14th 1500, soldiers are sent to arrest him under the orders of the city government. The soldiers arrive at the church he was in, and are met by a huge crowd. They say that they were sent to get Father Schneider and bring him to speak to the city government, but the crowd does not believe them. As they nervously hesitate, the inspiration of the crowd speaks - he calls for the Restoration of the Church to the position of moral purity that it had once had.
The crowd listens, and rapidly becomes a mob - it attacks the soldiers, killing many of them, and in moments the survivors are in flight.

While the revolt in Wien is by no means widespread, it does take control of the city - when the followers of Father Schneider seem certain to triumph over the garrison, a large portion of the garrison switches sides.

Hearing of the situation in Wien, Maximilian I is caught indecisive - he hesitates for a week, then orders most of his army in the Tyrol back to the north, to besiege Wien. He himself joins that force, and ensures that it consists of most of his best troops...

Sounds good; do you mind if I edit in one or two little items that shouldn't effect you directly at all but will set some stuff up for Switzerland down the road?

Also, who is this Heinrich Schneider?

[marl_d]

ok, thats what i thought, but wasn't sure if someone had another explorer

[Glen]

I would like to have some vinettes describing contacts with some of these: the Micmac, the Powahatan, the Alibama, the Aztec, the Haustec, and the Musica if possible.

[DuQuense]

just out of curiosity, what European Explores to the New World are there so far? has it just been Columbus and Cabot or are their others?OTL you had [sp]Americo Vepepesi running a couple of trips to the new world. in the late 1490's.
?Did Columbus set up the town of San Isabella in Hispanola [IIRC 1497] with 1500 men and 30 women?

[Glen]

OTL you had [sp]Americo Vepepesi running a couple of trips to the new world. in the late 1490's.
?Did Columbus set up the town of San Isabella in Hispanola [IIRC 1497] with 1500 men and 30 women?

Didn't Vespucci go with the Columbus trips later?

The quesiton of what Columbus does ITTL is important.

Hey, could have him get lost in a hurricane....:D

[Smaug]

I would like to have some vinettes describing contacts with some of these: the Micmac, the Powahatan, the Alibama, the Aztec, the Haustec, and the Musica if possible.

I'm more than happy to work with any explorers on thier stories. Unfortunately, my American(?) lands aren't immediately valueable to Europeans. If contacted, I will be as helpful as possible. I hold the Mayan remnants, Haustec and the Muisca.

[DuQuense]

Didn't Vespucci go with the Columbus trips later?
pull out the Wiki:D:DVoyages

According to great and famous historians like Martin Fernandez de Navarrete, Germàn Arciniegas and Gabriel Camargo Perez, the first voyage of Amerigo Vespucci took place in 1497, probably in a trip organized by the King Ferdinando, who wanted to clarify if the main land was far away from the Hispaniola Island discovered by the genoese Columbus. The captain of this trip that sailed in May 1497 was possibly Juan Dias the Solis. With Vespucci, there was pilot and cartographer Juan de la Cosa (the then-famous captain who had sailed with Columbus in 1492). According to the first letter of Amerigo Vespucci, they landed in a main land at the 16 degrees latitude, probably the coast of La Guajira peninsula in present Colombia or the coast of Nicaragua. Then they were following the coastal land mass of central America, and they returned to the Atlantic Ocean, crossing the strait of Florida between Florida and Cuba. In his letters, Amerigo Vespucci described this trip, and once Juan de la Cosa returned to Spain, so did the famous world map in which Cuba is represented like an island. In about 1499–1500, Vespucci joined an expedition in the service of Spain, with Alonso de Ojeda (or Hojeda) as the fleet commander. The intention was to sail around the southern end of the African mainland into the Indian Ocean.[2] After hitting land at the coast of what is now Guyana, the two seem to have separated. Vespucci sailed southward, discovering the mouth of the Amazon River and reaching 6°S, before turning around and seeing Trinidad and the Orinoco River and returning to Spain by way of Hispaniola. The letter, to Lorenzo di Pierfrancesco de' Medici, claims that Vespucci determined his longitude celestially [3] on August 23, 1499, while on this voyage. However, that claim might be fraudulent,[3] which could cast doubt on the letter's credibility. His last certain voyage was one led by Gonçalo Coelho in 1501–1502 in the service of Portugal. Departing from Lisbon, the fleet sailed first to Cape Verde where they met two of Pedro Álvares Cabral's ships returning from India. In a letter from Cape Verde, Vespucci says that he hopes to visit the same lands that Álvares Cabral had explored, suggesting that the intention is to sail west to Asia, as on the 1499-1500 voyage.[2] On reaching the coast of Brazil, they sailed south along the coast of South America to Rio de Janeiro's bay. If his own account is to be believed, he reached the latitude of Patagonia before turning back; although this also seems doubtful, since his account does not mention the broad estuary of the Río de la Plata, which he must have seen if he had gotten that far south. Portuguese maps of South America, created after the voyage of Coelho and Vespucci, do not show any land south of present-day Cananéia at 25º S, so this may represent the southernmost extent of their voyages. During the first half of this expedition in 1501, Vespucci mapped the two stars, Alpha Centauri and Beta Centauri as well as the stars of the constellation Crux.[3] Although these stars were known to the ancient Greeks, gradual precession had lowered them below the European skyline so that they were forgotten.[4] On return to Lisbon, Vespucci wrote in a letter to de' Medici that the land masses they explored were much larger than anticipated and different from the Asia described by earlier Europeans and, therefore, must be a New World, that is, a previously unknown fourth continent, after Europe, Asia, and Africa.

[KineticBots]

I have been reading these posts with great enthusiasm, however, there is something I'd really like to know:

"Hey, what's been going on in Korea?"


I probably missed the posts - if so...:o


Regards,
KineticBots

[Keenir]

I have been reading these posts with great enthusiasm, however, there is something I'd really like to know:

"Hey, what's been going on in Korea?"


I probably missed the posts - if so...:o


Regards,
KineticBots

I've been wondering something similar: where are the Japanese pirates? (1515 and onwards in OTL)

[AJNolte]

For lack of any better ideas, I've been planning to allow Spanish exploration to proceed OTL in a similar, all be it less brutal fashion. The main differences will be two-fold: first, substantial lands will be granted to the Pope. Second, those tribes which convert will, because of the Papal letter regarding good stewardship, not be conquered outright. The more liberal attitude of Prince (later King) Juan and his advisors from the Salamanca school will play a rather large role here. However, I'm very much afraid that liberalization under their Catholic Majesties won't go very far. So the Caribbean is pretty much screwed from that perspective, save for those islands which I give to the Pope, which may be more liberal.

I figure the crusade will also have an impact, setting back Columbus' second voyage until around 1500. However, given that the gold poured into it from the sail of Sicily is not inconsiderable, their Catholic Majesties will want to see a return on their investment--probably in gold, silver, or other things of value.

So, let's assume that Columbus sets out with a sizeable armada in 1500. He returns to Hispaniola, sets up a colonial town, and sends out exploratory missions to Northern South America and Mexico. I doubt that he'll get inland far enough to encounter the Aztecs, but it is possible. Conquest of Puerto Rico, Cuba and Hispaniola--at a minimum--is likely. I also think it plausible that he would land explorers on Florida, and that conquest of this region would follow not too long after.

Beyond this, I'm open to suggestions. My domestic stuff for Spain is better flushed out than my new world portions.

[DuQuense]

Columbus left Cádiz, Spain, on September 24, 1493 to find new territories, with 17 ships carrying supplies, and about 1,200 men to colonize the region. On October 13, the ships left the Canary Islands as they had on the first voyage, following a more southerly course. & 30 women.
On November 22, Columbus returned to Hispaniola, where he intended to visit Fuerte de la Navidad (Christmas Fort), built during his first voyage, and located in the northern coast of Haiti; Fuerte de la Navidad was found in ruins, destroyed by the native Taino Indians, upon which, Columbus moved more than 100 kilometers eastwards, establishing a new settlement, which he called La Isabela, likewise on the northern coast of La Hispaniola, within present day Dominican Republic.

I would go with something like this except increase the number of Ships and Men to reflect the funds from the Sale of Sicily. Maybe set up several settlements.

[AJNolte]

Yep, that sounds good. I'll work on writing something up. & 30 women.


I would go with something like this except increase the number of Ships and Men to reflect the funds from the Sale of Sicily. Maybe set up several settlements.

[General_Paul]

For lack of any better ideas, I've been planning to allow Spanish exploration to proceed OTL in a similar, all be it less brutal fashion. The main differences will be two-fold: first, substantial lands will be granted to the Pope. Second, those tribes which convert will, because of the Papal letter regarding good stewardship, not be conquered outright. The more liberal attitude of Prince (later King) Juan and his advisors from the Salamanca school will play a rather large role here. However, I'm very much afraid that liberalization under their Catholic Majesties won't go very far. So the Caribbean is pretty much screwed from that perspective, save for those islands which I give to the Pope, which may be more liberal.

I figure the crusade will also have an impact, setting back Columbus' second voyage until around 1500. However, given that the gold poured into it from the sail of Sicily is not inconsiderable, their Catholic Majesties will want to see a return on their investment--probably in gold, silver, or other things of value.

So, let's assume that Columbus sets out with a sizeable armada in 1500. He returns to Hispaniola, sets up a colonial town, and sends out exploratory missions to Northern South America and Mexico. I doubt that he'll get inland far enough to encounter the Aztecs, but it is possible. Conquest of Puerto Rico, Cuba and Hispaniola--at a minimum--is likely. I also think it plausible that he would land explorers on Florida, and that conquest of this region would follow not too long after.

Beyond this, I'm open to suggestions. My domestic stuff for Spain is better flushed out than my new world portions.


My advice for the Spanish New World conquests would most likely be to have them pressing their advantages in the Carib region first, maybe on his last voyage have Columbus make a landing or two in the Yucatan Peninsula and make contact with some of the remnant Maya city states, or explore ruins of the old Maya cities. They're rich with gold and silver, something that the Spanish Empire was built on. A steady revenue source of gold and silver from the Yucatan and perhaps later areas of Central America could be a promising place for the Spanish to settle, especially with a Crusade going on in the Middle East. Crusades are expensive and I doubt that the Spanish and Portuguese would want to stay out of the holy land conflict for long.

Anyways, that's just my two cents.

[AJNolte]

My advice for the Spanish New World conquests would most likely be to have them pressing their advantages in the Carib region first, maybe on his last voyage have Columbus make a landing or two in the Yucatan Peninsula and make contact with some of the remnant Maya city states, or explore ruins of the old Maya cities. They're rich with gold and silver, something that the Spanish Empire was built on. A steady revenue source of gold and silver from the Yucatan and perhaps later areas of Central America could be a promising place for the Spanish to settle, especially with a Crusade going on in the Middle East. Crusades are expensive and I doubt that the Spanish and Portuguese would want to stay out of the holy land conflict for long.

Anyways, that's just my two cents.

That makes sense. I have no objection to a smaller Spanish presence in the new world, getting established more slowly.

So, for discussion, how about Columbus lands again in 1500, and sets out to conquer Hispaniola, Puerto Rico and Cuba, which he does successfully. Puerto Rico is given to the Pope (agreed privately with John). Columbus sends out expeditions to Florida (it is very close to Cuba after all) and the Yukatan. However, the latter quickly proves far more profitable, and so Spanish exploration turns in this direction.

[Keenir]

For lack of any better ideas, I've been planning to allow Spanish exploration to proceed OTL in a similar, all be it less brutal fashion. The main differences will be two-fold: first, substantial lands will be granted to the Pope. Second, those tribes which convert will, because of the Papal letter regarding good stewardship, not be conquered outright.

if they're seeing themselves as stewards, what steward wants his ward to grow up ignorant of whatever may be the Truth? (and how restrained will the Conquistadors be, when told that they're not allowed to take all the gold and riches from the heathens?)

just wondering.

[Glen]

rough outline:
THIS WILL INVOLVE BASICALLY ALL OF EUROPE...
I need all these nation to PM me so we can discuss, uh, the discussions!

1500 April: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets with the Portugese Court.

1500 May: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets with Neapolitan-Sicilian-Jerusalemite Court.

1500 Summer: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets His Holiness the Pope and stays a while to discuss the furthering of Catholicism and Italian politics in southern Africa.

1500 Fall: HRH Prince João-Baptista meets heads-of-state and tours the Holy Roman Empire

1500 November: Prince João-Baptista meets with Scandinavian and Hanseatic members.

1500 Winter: Prince João-Baptista stays the Winter in England

1501 March: Prince João-Baptista returns to Portugal, and travels by land to meet Their Catholic Majesties of Spain

1502 May: Prince João-Baptista meets with the North African Christians on his way to the Holy Land.

1502 Summer: Prince João-Baptista meets with Christian and Muslim states in the Holy Land, before travelling by land to Istambul to meet with the Sultan himself. Thousands of books, statues, relics, crucifixes, and the like are purchased for his return to Ndongo.

1502 Fall: Prince João-Baptista tours Eastern Europe.

1502 Winter: Prince João-Baptista stays the Winter with the Hansa, a second visit.

1503 Spring: Prince João-Baptista returns to southern Africa, with treaties, trade, and treasures from across Europe and the Holy Land

Why the heck is he wintering in NORTHERN EUROPE??? Seems like the opposite would be the sensible thing to do. Travel the North in the Summer months, and the Med in the Winter.

[Glen]

1506. The Zaque of Hunza increases the propigation of coca. The newly conquered territories are smitten by the leaf, and appear to willing to spend anything for it. The revenues due to this, and the ongoing monopoly in the salt trade nicely line the pockets of the Zaque. He builds up the infrastructure of his territories, in particlular the defenses of his economic hubs.

Any feedback on the last two posts would be much appreciated.

Coca leaves alone are not especially addictive. Its the refined product that puts the monkey on your back. I'd remove the bit about 'willing to spend anything for it'.

[Tom Veil]

Agreed. It's about as addictive as coffee -- physicial withdrawal if you stop using it, but nothing that the average adult can't deal with.

[Smaug]

Coca leaves alone are not especially addictive. Its the refined product that puts the monkey on your back. I'd remove the bit about 'willing to spend anything for it'.

Well, in my defense, I'm not talking about Europeans who have a high quality of life, to a point. I'm talking about hunter gatherers, and agrarian societies that have to eak a living out of the soil. I'm not going for the addiction thing at this time, but if your a farmer, and this helps your laborers work more efficiently, so be it.

The Muisca have a fairly advanced economy, and its a natural progression for them to use such things to improve thier margins. Economics are economics. You don't have to be European to realize that your farmers and workers do 20% more work when supplied with coca. I don't think that thats a reach, and I intend to improve the leaf by careful breeding.

If I'm going over the top, I'll work with whoever has a different opinion. I also apologize if it appears that I'm trying to foist drugs on the world. I just think you have to do the best you can, with what you have.

[Aussey]

England:

1500: Prince João-Baptista visits England. Most of the English find him and his African entourage exotic, but keep their distance. An exception is young Prince Arthur, who still convalescing from his prolonged illness, spends much time with the visiting prince and is entranced by his tales of the Jungle lands of Africa.

OOC: What do you think, Aussey?

It's perfect. I always liked watching Medieval movies when maybe one African would be in the European cities in the 1500s, and you see peasant women crying "BEELZEBUB!" and running like madpeople...
:rolleyes:

[AJNolte]

Alright, we have two potential buyers for Groningen: Philip Elector Count Palatine and Edward (spelling)? of East Frisia.
Palatine advantages:
1. Well, duke Frederick is married to his daughter.
2. He definitely has the money with all those iron mines.

Possible disadvantage: isn't Groningen a fair bit of distance away from the Upper Palatinate?

Frisian advantages:
1. Closeness.
2. Willingness to defend it by force.
Disadvantages:
1. The Count Palatine can probably put more money into the bid (the countie is one of the wealthiest in the HRE, even this early).
2. The count is Frederick's father-in-law.
3. Selling to the count Palatinate does decrease the risk of alienating the Hapsburgs even father, and tie another elector closely to the reunited house of Wettin.

Of course, there's the matter of Groningen's local sympathies. Which potential buyer will they regard as less of a hostile foreign interloper?

There's a third potential wrinkle: Henry, elector Archbishop of Trier, who is close enough to possibly take control of Groningen, at least in the interim. He is also very close to Frederick the Wise, and, if Frederick were to become annoyed with Edward and Philip, he might just give the territory to his cousin and ally.
Keenir, Pompejus, feedback appreciated.

[Keenir]

Alright, we have two potential buyers for Groningen: Philip Elector Count Palatine and Edward (spelling)? of East Frisia.

Keenir, Pompejus, feedback appreciated.

Philip the Upright opens the bidding with one thousand ducats (or the Rhenish equivilent) and also a vow (made to a piece of the One True Cross in his chapel) to finance the construction of a new church in each major city of Groningen.

[Glen]

Next thread here.

[Glen]

Next thread here.

Unlocking so people may help with the timeline review.