1493 First Draft Events for 1500-1509

[Glen]

Okay, trying something a little different this round.

Please post your first drafts of events, whether involving you alone or others, here. Repost events beginning in 1500 or after here if you have already posted them, using the standards below.

Please indicate where the event is happening as well as a date. Bold location and date and put a colon after locations and after dates. Please use the following format for dates - Year Season or Month Date. Note you may truncate. You may use a range, but give the full year in the end range. Examples of dates using this style:

1500:

1500-1503:

1500 Spring:

1500 March:

1500 March-April:

1500 March 15:

1500 March 15-20:

Put OTL events that you want emphasized by being put in the timeline in red, like this sentence.

Put negative events (things that happened in OTL, but not ITTL) in {}, for example {'Such and Such' does not die.} Do not make red as it is a change from OTL.

Please do not put your events in the 'List' notation. It looks cool but makes more work for editing. Please also use full names of people for events that are possibly separable, even if you just repeated it.

[Keenir]

(Sorry for not reposting the 1493-9 stuff earlier, but I was computerless and/or moving until today).


welcome back & hope you enjoy the new place.


1500. Frederick, duke of Ernestine Saxony, founds a University at Wittenberg, at which a young miner's son named Martin Luther will study and teach cannon law and theology.

son of a copper-worker.

1505. Martin Luther enters Wittenberg University, studying cannon law and (to the consternation of his father), theology.

I always thought Luther's father was more angry about his son leaving his education to be a lawyer.
*shrugs*


1506. Luther reads Henry's commentaries and is impressed. The bold young student writes to the Duke's son, and they strike up a life-long friendship. Henry's phlegmatic personality complement's Luther's volcanic one.

does Luther still have his bouts of ill health? (him and Darwin...I don't know which one had more complaints) :)

As Henry begins disputing with other theologians Luther quickly becomes established as "Wettin's bulldog"--a gifted polemicist for Henry's ideas.

was "Wettin" a surname, or just a placename to distinguish this Henry from other Henrys? (of course, 'Wettin's Bulldog' might be a coinage to specify one who advocates the views of Henry Wettin)

just a thought.

[AJNolte]

welcome back & hope you enjoy the new place.



son of a copper-worker.



I always thought Luther's father was more angry about his son leaving his education to be a lawyer.
*shrugs*



does Luther still have his bouts of ill health? (him and Darwin...I don't know which one had more complaints) :)



was "Wettin" a surname, or just a placename to distinguish this Henry from other Henrys? (of course, 'Wettin's Bulldog' might be a coinage to specify one who advocates the views of Henry Wettin)

just a thought.

1. Thanks: back to DC from PA.
2. Hans Luther's position in the coper mines is kind of ambiguous. There are some sources which indicate he was actually a mine-owner.
3. Hans isn't quite as angry (his son is still studying law after all), but is annoyed that Martin is, in Hans' view, waisting his time.
4. Indicates that he is the bulldog of Henry Wettin and defender of his ideas. Wettin is the sirname of the rulers of both Saxonies.

[Keenir]

1. Thanks: back to DC from PA.

neat.


2. Hans Luther's position in the coper mines is kind of ambiguous. There are some sources which indicate he was actually a mine-owner.
3. Hans isn't quite as angry (his son is still studying law after all), but is annoyed that Martin is, in Hans' view, waisting his time.
4. Indicates that he is the bulldog of Henry Wettin and defender of his ideas. Wettin is the sirname of the rulers of both Saxonies.


I bet that placates Hans a large amount -- a son with legal training raising in the defense of a Wettin...

[AJNolte]

neat.




I bet that placates Hans a large amount -- a son with legal training raising in the defense of a Wettin...

Yes, yes it does. Luther will probably be a much more happy, all be it less prominent person ITTL. As I think this is what he'd've wanted, I feel that, as a Lutheran, I ought to give him his due.

[AJNolte]

Note: I'll do my best with this format, but things like changing colors, bolding and the like are, uh, problematic due to my blindness. Appologies in advance.

[Glen]

Note: I'll do my best with this format, but things like changing colors, bolding and the like are, uh, problematic due to my blindness. Appologies in advance.

Should it be a problem? When you enter the events, just put in front a in brackets a capital B or 'color equals red to bold or change the color, respectively. Where you want it to stop, put in brackets a back-slash then either the capital B or color equals red as appropriate. Does that help?

[RCTFI]

In the south of the HRE, during the opening years of the 16th century, the doctrine preached by Heinrich Schneider (the obscure priest mentioned before) begin to spread beyond just Wien.
While the local church authorities are a bit disapproving, his doctrine does continue to spread.

One specific fact that helps to ensure the spread of his doctrine is the support it receives from the nobles and administrators (often the same group) in and around Wien.

However, it also appeals to the common people - this Heinrich Schneider has a lot in common with Savonarola to the south, save that he is less focused on the evils of earthly wealth and art (largely because there isn't that much art in Wien, especially compared to Florence) and very focused on reforming the corruption within the church.

[AJNolte]

Should it be a problem? When you enter the events, just put in front a in brackets a capital B or 'color equals red to bold or change the color, respectively. Where you want it to stop, put in brackets a back-slash then either the capital B or color equals red as appropriate. Does that help?

Ah, that does help. I'll give it a shot.

[Tom Veil]

1502 Winter: Ninety-percent of the Ndongolese are now Catholic. Only about a quarter of the Matambans are.
I would suspect that they are CINO (Catholic in Name Only). But otherwise this is OK; many European rulers during the Dark Ages forced everyone to pretend that they were Christian whenever the missionaries were around.

[AJNolte]

Schneider will probably influence Wettin actually. The Wettinite movement will hold some Lutheran doctrines in commen (the total inefficacy of meritorious good works with regard to justification for one, and an emphasis on having scripture readily accessible to the common man). However, it does not necessarily have to lead to a breech in the church, depending on the flexibility of Catholic leadership. However, this is probably next week time frame anyway.

[Keenir]

Schneider will probably influence Wettin actually.

question - how do Schneider and Wettin view Jan Huss?
(if I recall, in OTL, Martin Luther started out writing condemnations and proofs illustrating Catholic superiority over the Hussite heresy)

[Keenir]

Summer 1500 through mid-Fall 1500: Sultan Ahmed of the Ottoman Empire orders the felling of a great many trees in order to increase the size of his navy. A few cannons are also commissioned, but nowhere near enough to give every one of the new ships the same number of cannons as the pre-existing Ottoman navy has per ship.

Also during this time, the Ottoman army drills ever-harder, preparing for their strike against the Mamluk holdouts in Arabia. Supplies and back-up stores and reserves are placed on each ship, with the intention that nobody runs out of food or water during the campaign.

[DuQuense]

Also during this time, the Ottoman army drills ever-harder, preparing for their strike against the Mamluk holdouts in Arabia. Supplies and back-up stores and reserves are placed on each ship, with the intention that nobody runs out of food or water during the campaign. Did I miss something, I thought this canpaign was against Marluk Syria.
I the Marluks still hold Eygpt, [otl,till 1520's] you are not going to be able to get theose ships to Arabia.
Course it will take 5~10 years to build all these new ships.

[Keenir]

Did I miss something, I thought this canpaign was against Marluk Syria.
I the Marluks still hold Eygpt, [otl,till 1520's] you are not going to be able to get theose ships to Arabia.
Course it will take 5~10 years to build all these new ships.

OOC: yeah, I thought that the campaign was just against Syria too...but my allies (the Knights of Rhodes & their Ethiopian clients, and also the Spanish) appearantly took the fight to your door.

I've no problem retconning the situation.
(for me, all it means is withdrawing those statements regarding the Pope in Cairo)

[DuQuense]

1501
following the collaspe of the Delphi Sultanates north of the Empire the Empire had sent troops north to resolve some border issues. in the west this brought the border to Mumbaiand followed Mountain ridges and the Rivers [Godavari] and other defendable landmarks east. in 1501 the Empire began constrasting a series of forts along the new border.

1502
on his way to India Da Gama stops in Mobossa which he had beeen thrown out of in 1498, bombards and captures the town.

1502
Vasa da Gama returned with a fleet of 20 Ships and demanded that the trade routes and Markets be opened to Portugese control.
When this was refused he opened fire, trying to sink the Indian ships in Port.
During the counterattack 10 portuguese ships are sunk including Da Gama's flagship. several hundred Portuguese are captured, & Da Gama is Killed.
The remaining ships retreat to Mobassa.

1502
Several thousand shipyard workers from south India and the Maldives move to Ethiophia to work in the new shipyards being built there.

1503
A delagation from Ethiopia arrives to ramson the Portuguese, and buy the salvaged Ships.

[DuQuense]

The Ethiopians reply to Selmin,

The Axumite Church was founded by a group of the 72 Apostles, in the time of Rome.
But the Adoli were converted by Byzantine Missionaries. As such Whe both look, to the Byzantine Patriarch of Constantiople, as the Spirtuial Head of our Churches.
That is the basic of our calling our selfs Byzanitine Churches.

Whe have no problem with you being-- Ahmed, Caesar of the Roman Empire, Rex Islam, Sultan of the Ottomans, Caliph of the Faithful, Shadow of God on Earth, Heir to the Prophet.
And whe render into Caeser, that which is Caeser's.
But our nation is not part of Rome. Our business here is with that which is God's.

[AJNolte]

1499-1502: War goes much as OTL(not sure how to do the red)

September 13th 1502: During the battle of the Seritsa River (Battle of Smolin) Wolter von Plettenberg was turning the tied of the war until he is killed by Russian artillery while attempting to take on the Russian forces. (OTL he is able to defeat the Russians with a force of only 12,000 against anywhere between 30-40,000) The demoralized Livonian army retreats toward Riga in hopes of help from abroad.

1503: After a long and tiresome siege with little help from the outside, the Remaining leaders of the Livonian Confederation send out request for help to the Kalamar Union, who rejects the Livonian request, and the Hansa/Teutonic Knights (ooc: their response will be added later)
After the fall of the Livonian Confederation, the Territory is split between the four powers (see division map in the map thread). The remaining Knights of the Order are given an Option, be expelled from Russian controlled Livonia (including Riga) or convert to the Orthodoxy and become Crusaders for the Patriarch. Most of the order leaves either retires in the Catholic Poland/Lithuania territory of Courland or goes to join the Teutonic Knights.

However a small band of about 175 Knights and 200 apprentices and squire’s stay, lead by a young, charismatic Aloysius Marmaduke (ooc: Alik Yakovlev in Russian and made up, can't find any names beyond the Grand Master of the Livonian Order), convert to the Orthodoxy and Establish the Knights of St. Andrew. These knights are sent to Moscow to start a school and training center, and will become the core of Russia’s future military. (Much like the Cossacks of OTL)



This should probably go in international.

[marl_d]

well for the moment this is all internal, though if john jumps in with, we'll have to recont in international

[Tom Veil]

I confess to being skeptical that the Ethiopians could afford to build ships capable of sailing around the Cape of Good Hope and into Europe.

[AJNolte]

I'd like to have some of the Rhodean Hospitalers--probably attached to either a Spanish or Hanseatic trade mission--discover a primitive smallpox vaccine. How possible is this?

[Keenir]

I'd like to have some of the Rhodean Hospitalers--probably attached to either a Spanish or Hanseatic trade mission--discover a primitive smallpox vaccine. How possible is this?

if by "vaccine," you mean that a weakened form of the virus confers immunity once the body has experience fighting the weak form...very possible. (just use a nursemaid or a cow - either of which has the virus - suckle a baby who grows up immune to that variant (however strong) of smallpox)

[Keenir]

The Ethiopians reply to Selmin,
But the Adoli were converted by Byzantine Missionaries. As such Whe both look, to the Byzantine Patriarch of Constantiople, as the Spirtuial Head of our Churches.
That is the basic of our calling our selfs Byzanitine Churches.

OOC: oh. okay. sorry.

And whe render into Caeser, that which is Caeser's.
But our nation is not part of Rome.

OOC: the Rus' could learn something from them. ;)

Our business here is with that which is God's.

IC:
Ahmed sends a peace embassy to the Ethiopians, complete with a letter of introduction signed by His Holiness the Patriarch of Constantinople.

[Aussey]

I would suspect that they are CINO (Catholic in Name Only). But otherwise this is OK; many European rulers during the Dark Ages forced everyone to pretend that they were Christian whenever the missionaries were around.

Yes, and the Catholicism in Africa, as it will be separated from Europe by quite a bit, will be a very Franciscan-Spiritualist Catholicism, as a blend of the native beliefs, Franciscan beliefs, and overall of Medieval Catholicism. I can see a very medieval-style Catholic Churcn in the Kongos when Europe goes more main stream, if they do....

[Aussey]

1502: King Alphonso sends an Royal delegation headed by his youngest son, also named Alphonso, to the court of King Emanuel. It is for several purposes. Establishing an Italian sphere of influence in Kongo and ensuring the economic rights guaranteed to Sicily are the top priorities. Alphonso’s wife Maria Christina helps with the missionaries conversion efforts, as she herself converted. Italian engineers, scientists, scholars and architects are sent to help modernize Kongo.

1503: Alphonso II meets with representatives of the Hanseatic League. After negotiations Alphonso agreed to the sale of Malta. In exchange, the Hansa would pay for a Sicilian expedition to the New World and there would be a joint Sicilian-Hansa expedition to round the tip of the southern lands.

You may want to change the words "Kongo," with Ndongo.
They are different...Kongo is already very Portugese.

[Keenir]

1500. Juan and Margaret's first son, Ferdinand, is born.
1502. Their Catholic majesties begin a policy of favoring the Castilian and Aragonese towns at the expense of the great nobles. Thus begins the rise of the communeros.
1503. Juan's second son, Juan-Philipe, is born.

why favor the towns? what did the nobles do to tick off their Catholic Majesties?

[The Sicilian]

You may want to change the words "Kongo," with Ndongo.
They are different...Kongo is already very Portugese.
Oops, my bad. Fixed now.

[AJNolte]

You may want to change the words "Kongo," with Ndongo.
They are different...Kongo is already very Portugese.

The question is, how long will it stay that way? Portugal hasn't exactly been exerting itself recently on Kongo's behalf.

[AJNolte]

why favor the towns? what did the nobles do to tick off their Catholic Majesties?


Oops, sorry, that happened OTL as well (though I don't have a fixed date for when it started).
Not so much that they ticked them off, rather that their Catholic Majesties don't want to risk the great lords gaining more power. Same reason most European kings started favoring the towns.

[Aussey]

The question is, how long will it stay that way? Portugal hasn't exactly been exerting itself recently on Kongo's behalf.

Hence why Ndongo-Matamba has made itself a Neapolitan-Sicilian-Jerusalemite sphere of influence for the time being...

[Keenir]

Oops, sorry, that happened OTL as well (though I don't have a fixed date for when it started).
Not so much that they ticked them off, rather that their Catholic Majesties don't want to risk the great lords gaining more power. Same reason most European kings started favoring the towns.

ah, okay; thought to ask; was curious.

[Aussey]

1505 March: After delayed visits and tours, Prince João-Baptista arrives back in Ndongo, with an even grander entourage of Franciscan monks, Neapolitan men to mine the interior, Spaniard artisans, and such; Rhodean knights, and treasures beyond compare. King Diego and his Queen throw a large parade in honor of what the Ndongolese consider to be "model Catholics."

The Neapolitans, along with a few Rhodean knights, and a conquistador, are granted a charter by King Diego to colonize and conquer the unconquered lands of the powerful, heathen kingdom of Lunda in the north in the name of the King. King Diego declares his kingdom to be "a mari usque ad mare," after learning of the Indian Ocean and Muslim Africans from Prince João-Baptista.

1505 April: Prince João-Baptista is created "Duke of Angoy," and made Royal Ambassador to Their Catholic Majesties of Spain, and Prince Fernando of Matamba is made Royal Ambassador to the Kingdom of Naples-Sicily-Jerusalem. Their re-depart is scheduled for the fall.

1505 May: Prince João-Baptista and his betrothed, Donna Anna Christina de Lannoy of Naples, are married at small Franciscan parish Church of Santa Chiarra in the capital. Queen Betânia gives birth to a daughter, who is named "Maria Anna-Clara," and is given to the now-Princess Anna Christina of Naples to raise, whom the infant princess is named after. King Diego replaces Portugese with Italian as lingua franca of southern Africa.

1505 Summer: Construction on a cathedral in São Rafael begin. Prince Sebastião returns, having victoriously conquered the Jaga Cassangi. He is created "Principe-Conquistatore del Regno," and marries an Ndongolese noble woman, the Lady Anastasia-Cristina. He is made Royal Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, and plans to leave with the other ambassadors in the fall.

1505 August: TRH Prince João-Baptista, Princess Anna Christina of Naples, and the infant Infanta Maria Anna-Clara, depart for Spain; Prince Fernando departs for Naples; and TRH Prince Sebastião and Princess Anastasia-Cristina depart for Istambul. Instead of purely European dress, they are now all suited in European-cut clothing, with African materials, jewlry, and patterns. They truly look exotic, and representative of the Kingdoms of Ndongo and Matamba.

1505 September 17: Under influence from his Franciscan tendala, or Chief Advisor, King Diego signs the Act of Unification, unifying the kingdoms of Ndongo and Matamba as "Regno di Ndongo-Matamba-" the Kingdom of Ndongo-Matamba. It becomes known as Giorno di regnoSan , or "Kingdom Day," and in honor of this, King Diego declares Saint Lamberto di Maastricht, Co-Patron Saint of Ndongo-Matamba.

1505 November: TRH Prince João-Baptista, Princess Anna Christina of Naples, and the infant Infanta Maria Anna-Clara arrive in Madrid, Spain. More troops Ndongolese-Matamban troops are sent to help fight in Lunda.

1505 Christmas Day: The first Ndongolese bishop, Saint Lorenzo, is consecrated as "Bishop of All Africa-Austalis," by the Franciscan bishops.

1506 Winter/1507 Early Winter: The Spanish ship is sent to the Hansa, headed by a Matamban noble by the name of Count Marco-Felipe Mbandi, to purchase more materials for the Cathedral in São Rafael.

[AJNolte]

if by "vaccine," you mean that a weakened form of the virus confers immunity once the body has experience fighting the weak form...very possible. (just use a nursemaid or a cow - either of which has the virus - suckle a baby who grows up immune to that variant (however strong) of smallpox)


So, can the immunity be past through cow's milk?

[Keenir]

So, can the immunity be past through cow's milk?

I would guess that it can, since I recall hearing about it being passed through mothers' milk.

[Keenir]

1505 March:
The Neapolitans, along with a few Rhodean knights, and a conquistador, are granted a charter by King Diego to colonize and conquer the unconquered lands of the powerful, heathen kingdom of Lunda in the north in the name of the King. King Diego declares his kingdom to be "a mari usque ad mare," after learning of the Indian Ocean and Muslim Africans from Prince João-Baptista.

ooc: a mari what? may I request a translation, please?

1505 Summer: Construction on a cathedral in São Rafael begin. Prince Sebastião returns, having victoriously conquered the Jaga Cassangi. He is created "Principe-Conquistatore del Regno," and marries an Ndongolese noble woman, the Lady Anastasia-Cristina. He is made Royal Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, and plans to leave with the other ambassadors in the fall.

ooc: you can be sure that one of the first questions Korkud - if not Ahmed - is going to ask, will be "what can you tell us of the Muslims in your region of the world?":cool:

[AJNolte]

1505 March: After delayed visits and tours, Prince João-Baptista arrives back in Ndongo, with an even grander entourage of Franciscan monks, Neapolitan men to mine the interior, Spaniard artisans, and such; Rhodean knights, and treasures beyond compare. King Diego and his Queen throw a large parade in honor of what the Ndongolese consider to be "model Catholics."

The Neapolitans, along with a few Rhodean knights, and a conquistador, are granted a charter by King Diego to colonize and conquer the unconquered lands of the powerful, heathen kingdom of Lunda in the north in the name of the King. King Diego declares his kingdom to be "a mari usque ad mare," after learning of the Indian Ocean and Muslim Africans from Prince João-Baptista.

1505 April: Prince João-Baptista is created "Duke of Angoy," and made Royal Ambassador to Their Catholic Majesties of Spain, and Prince Fernando of Matamba is made Royal Ambassador to the Kingdom of Naples-Sicily-Jerusalem. Their re-depart is scheduled for the fall.

1505 May: Prince João-Baptista and his betrothed, Donna Anna Christina de Lannoy of Naples, are married at small Franciscan parish Church of Santa Chiarra in the capital. Queen Betânia gives birth to a daughter, who is named "Maria Anna-Clara," and is given to the now-Princess Anna Christina of Naples to raise, whom the infant princess is named after. King Diego replaces Portugese with Italian as lingua franca of southern Africa.

1505 Summer: Construction on a cathedral in São Rafael begin. Prince Sebastião returns, having victoriously conquered the Jaga Cassangi. He is created "Principe-Conquistatore del Regno," and marries an Ndongolese noble woman, the Lady Anastasia-Cristina. He is made Royal Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, and plans to leave with the other ambassadors in the fall.

1505 August: TRH Prince João-Baptista, Princess Anna Christina of Naples, and the infant Infanta Maria Anna-Clara, depart for Spain; Prince Fernando departs for Naples; and TRH Prince Sebastião and Princess Anastasia-Cristina depart for Istambul. Instead of purely European dress, they are now all suited in European-cut clothing, with African materials, jewlry, and patterns. They truly look exotic, and representative of the Kingdoms of Ndongo and Matamba.

1505 September 17: Under influence from his Franciscan tendala, or Chief Advisor, King Diego signs the Act of Unification, unifying the kingdoms of Ndongo and Matamba as "Regno di Ndongo-Matamba-" the Kingdom of Ndongo-Matamba. It becomes known as Giorno di regnoSan , or "Kingdom Day," and in honor of this, King Diego declares Saint Lamberto di Maastricht, Co-Patron Saint of Ndongo-Matamba.

1505 November: TRH Prince João-Baptista, Princess Anna Christina of Naples, and the infant Infanta Maria Anna-Clara arrive in Madrid, Spain. More troops Ndongolese-Matamban troops are sent to help fight in Lunda.

1505 Christmas Day: The first Ndongolese bishop, Saint Lorenzo, is consecrated as "Bishop of All Africa-Austalis," by the Franciscan bishops.

1506 Winter/1507 Early Winter: The Spanish ship is sent to the Hansa, headed by a Matamban noble by the name of Count Marco-Felipe Mbandi, to purchase more materials for the Cathedral in São Rafael.



Few points:
1. Spain will probably be supporting Kongo considerably more than Ndongo, as Ndongo is in the Neapolitan sphere of influence.
2. I don't really think you can get your bishop made primate of all Southern Africa. OTL Henriqe of Kongo was given the defunct bishopric of Eutica, and that was about as far as it was going to go. Plus there is another Christian kingdom in the nearby area with close ties to the church--particularly in Spain (by which, of course, I mean Kongo). Speaking of which, are you responding to the Kongolese offer of alliance?
3. Isn't Maria-Christina of Naples already married to Alphonso's youngest son?
4. Where are you getting the money for all this? Cathedrals are expensive, and importing materials from Northern Germany even more so. Wouldn't building it out of local materials be more feasible?
5. I think the Kongolese would be willing to send troops on your crusade.
6. Keep in mind that there aren't a whole lot of Rhodeans in Ndongo as of this moment.

In general though, I like what you're doing, and have similar plans for Kongo actually.

[Aussey]

ooc: a mari what? may I request a translation, please?

Latin: "From Sea to Sea."

ooc: you can be sure that one of the first questions Korkud - if not Ahmed - is going to ask, will be "what can you tell us of the Muslims in your region of the world?":cool:

OOC: We have none. But once we conquer Lunda, and then through Malawi, and into Mozambique we will know. We'll ask for your help against the Omanis to conquer this land, and tolerate the Muslims- As we have learned you tolerate Christians.

[AJNolte]

Awesome, thanks. Unless I hear differently I'll go with that.I would guess that it can, since I recall hearing about it being passed through mothers' milk.

[The Sicilian]

Aussey-Where exactly is the Lunda Kingdom? I like to know where the godless heathens are before I conquer them:rolleyes:.

[Aussey]

Few points:
1. Spain will probably be supporting Kongo considerably more than Ndongo, as Ndongo is in the Neapolitan sphere of influence.

If that's the case, I may send a more minor Prince to Spain, and the current ambassador to the Holy Roman Emperor. We will, of course, value our alliance with Kongo before all other.

2. I don't really think you can get your bishop made primate of all Southern Africa. OTL Henriqe of Kongo was given the defunct bishopric of Eutica, and that was about as far as it was going to go. Plus there is another Christian kingdom in the nearby area with close ties to the church--particularly in Spain (by which, of course, I mean Kongo).

I didn't. He was made a BISHOP. Not primate. Besides, Ndongo is south of Kongo, we made him Bishop of Ndongo, and Africa Australi, or south Africa, refers to the fact that we wish to expand southward. Not northward (except for Lunda- which is northeastward.) Of course, again, we wish to cooperate with Kongo.

Speaking of which, are you responding to the Kongolese offer of alliance?

Yes. Of course.

3. Isn't Maria-Christina of Naples already married to Alphonso's youngest son?

It's a common name. She's a minor lady from the Neapolitan king's court. Only made a Donna to marry the Prince.

4. Where are you getting the money for all this? Cathedrals are expensive, and importing materials from Northern Germany even more so. Wouldn't building it out of local materials be more feasible?

We are. Just a few things, like supplies for the altar, and silver and stuff. If you didn't know, from the Congo south, is full of diamonds. Diamonds. And ivory.

5. I think the Kongolese would be willing to send troops on your crusade.

Great! Because the heathen kingdom of Luango is to YOUR north, and the Kongolese claimed to be overlords- but you just physically bring it under your yoke. Help us conquer Lunda, we'll help you conquer Luango :)

6. Keep in mind that there aren't a whole lot of Rhodeans in Ndongo as of this moment.

Of course. That's why I said a few. Just throwing it in their, so it doesn't seem like we're not using them.

In general though, I like what you're doing, and have similar plans for Kongo actually.

Thanks!
Catholic Africa Will Rule The Continent.

[Aussey]

Aussey-Where exactly is the Lunda Kingdom? I like to know where the godless heathens are before I conquer them:rolleyes:.

The Lunda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunda_Empire) empire are, yes, godless heathens. Though there's no map, the intro gives you a brief description. Just a little north of Matamba. We're talking the jungles of Africa. It will be known in history as the cruciata jungallia- the Jungle Crusade!
:rolleyes:

[AJNolte]

If that's the case, I may send a more minor Prince to Spain, and the current ambassador to the Holy Roman Emperor. We will, of course, value our alliance with Kongo before all other.



I didn't. He was made a BISHOP. Not primate. Besides, Ndongo is south of Kongo, we made him Bishop of Ndongo, and Africa Australi, or south Africa, refers to the fact that we wish to expand southward. Not northward (except for Lunda- which is northeastward.) Of course, again, we wish to cooperate with Kongo.



Yes. Of course.



It's a common name. She's a minor lady from the Neapolitan king's court. Only made a Donna to marry the Prince.



We are. Just a few things, like supplies for the altar, and silver and stuff. If you didn't know, from the Congo south, is full of diamonds. Diamonds. And ivory.



Great! Because the heathen kingdom of Luango is to YOUR north, and the Kongolese claimed to be overlords- but you just physically bring it under your yoke. Help us conquer Lunda, we'll help you conquer Luango :)



Of course. That's why I said a few. Just throwing it in their, so it doesn't seem like we're not using them.



Thanks!
Catholic Africa Will Rule The Continent.


Spain: good idea. Hey, maybe we can actually play the Europeans off one another...for once. <g>

Thanks for the clarification re: bishops and such. Your crusading division sounds reasonable.
Rhodeans: fair enough.
Silver and other smaller articles: this could be the beginning of yet another beautiful Hanseatic trading relationship (your ambassador to the HRE would interact with several of my German domains, including the Wendish Federation, as well as much of the Hansa).
Catholics ruling Africa ***pokes you in the ribs*** you were supposed to keep the conspiracy for a Catholic African Empire under wraps! <g> Speaking of which, we should chat about slavery. And theology. And certain political goals. In fact, a southern Africa thread might not go amiss.

[The Sicilian]

Okay, Google found a map of the Lunda:
http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=77385&rendTypeId=4

Following trade routes you could reach Mozambique
EDIT: Also, Frankfurt was the seat of the Emperor. Berlin was the capital of Brandenburg.

[DuQuense]

I confess to being skeptical that the Ethiopians could afford to build ships capable of sailing around the Cape of Good Hope and into Europe.I confess to being skeptical that the Ethiopians could afford to build ships capable of sailing around the Cape of Good Hope and into Europe.

Whe are not yet building ships as of 1505, 5 years after starting whe are still working on building a shipyard.
amd whe will be buildings Indian Dhows, Maldive Dubuots, and Rhodian Galleys .Theylook a lot like what the Greeks and Romans built in the time of Christ, but the techniqies doesn't change much.

I think the Kongo/Africa events are moving way to fast, I takes a year just for someone to get from the Kongo to Spain and back.

?What are whe going to do about phychomeltdown's [portugal] absence?

[DuQuense]

If you want a vacine for smallpox, I would have a minor outbreak, and someone notice that Dairy people who have had coxpox do not get smallpox.
The rash and pistucles look a lot alike but the scarring and pocks don't appear at the end of cowpox. Cat pox and chicken pox also give immunity, but they are a lot harder for people to get.

[Smaug]

Ah, that does help. I'll give it a shot.

Don't feel bad....I can't do it either, and have no good excuse:)

[AJNolte]

Is cow pox limited to England, or can it occur somewhere else?

[AJNolte]

DQ:
Considering that Aussie's grand tour left in 1500 and returned in 1505, I think it's possible, though he might want to tack an extra year on there. Some of the follow-on stuff might take longer. As for Kongo, I was planning to have Aphonso leave in 1505, and return in 07 or 8, with the processing of events to take longer. Whe are not yet building ships as of 1505, 5 years after starting whe are still working on building a shipyard.
amd whe will be buildings Indian Dhows, Maldive Dubuots, and Rhodian Galleys .Theylook a lot like what the Greeks and Romans built in the time of Christ, but the techniqies doesn't change much.

I think the Kongo/Africa events are moving way to fast, I takes a year just for someone to get from the Kongo to Spain and back.

?What are whe going to do about phychomeltdown's [portugal] absence?

[DuQuense]

DQ:
Considering that Aussie's grand tour left in 1500 and returned in 1505, I think it's possible, though he might want to tack an extra year on there. Some of the follow-on stuff might take longer. As for Kongo, I was planning to have Aphonso leave in 1505, and return in 07 or 8, with the processing of events to take longer.

It wasn't the tour I was thinking about, but the events incountry. ?A cathedral in the Kongo?, only 30 years after first contact.
I also expected more resistance to the Africans, this is not cosmopolitian Rome where it only matter that you act like a Roman to be accepted as Civiliviled.
I also have a too quick feeling about what is happening in northern austrilia.

[AJNolte]

1507: A small outbreak of smallpox on Malta leads a young Hospitaler to begin looking for patterns, and a possible cure. His study of the disease yields a startling result. It seems that dairy mades have a stronger immunity to smallpox. The young unknown hospitaler begins treating smallpox patients with various disgusting mixtures of milk and cow's blood in order to try and find the proper amount.
1508: The Hospitalers "perfect" a treatment which is more than fifty percent effective in providing immunity against smallpox, which they willingly share with the Hansa, and anyone else who will listen, particularly other religious orders. While deeply flawed, this process has the potential to save nearly half of those treated with it.

[Glen]

1507: A small outbreak of smallpox on Malta leads a young Hospitaler to begin looking for patterns, and a possible cure. His study of the disease yields a startling result. It seems that dairy mades have a stronger immunity to smallpox. The young unknown hospitaler begins treating smallpox patients with various disgusting mixtures of milk and cow's blood in order to try and find the proper amount.
1508: The Hospitalers "perfect" a treatment which is more than fifty percent effective in providing immunity against smallpox, which they willingly share with the Hansa, and anyone else who will listen, particularly other religious orders. While deeply flawed, this process has the potential to save nearly half of those treated with it.


Note, I have an opinion on this. Will post later.

[AJNolte]

Note, I have an opinion on this. Will post later.

Fair enough. I know it's a reach but I'd like to do it considerably earlier. Have no problem kicking it back a few decades if necessary.

[DuQuense]

The young unknown hospitaler begins treating smallpox patients with various disgusting mixtures of milk and cow's blood in order to try and find the proper amount.
Up till the 50's~60's they would take a drop of vacinne and put it on your shoulder and prick the skin there several dozen times till you bled. I still have my little round scar.


My understanding is that Dairy people would get the rash on their hands and lower arms. then the poxs would break, the pus dryup , the poxs scab over and go away.
Opposed to small pox which leaves a deep pox mark.

After they started using Cowpox as a vacinne, you make a tiny cut and smear a little of the Cowpox pus into the wound.

[Glen]

1507: A small outbreak of smallpox on Malta leads a young Hospitaler to begin looking for patterns, and a possible cure. His study of the disease yields a startling result. It seems that dairy mades have a stronger immunity to smallpox. The young unknown hospitaler begins treating smallpox patients with various disgusting mixtures of milk and cow's blood in order to try and find the proper amount.
1508: The Hospitalers "perfect" a treatment which is more than fifty percent effective in providing immunity against smallpox, which they willingly share with the Hansa, and anyone else who will listen, particularly other religious orders. While deeply flawed, this process has the potential to save nearly half of those treated with it.


To the best of my knowledge, a blood and milk mix from cows taken orally will not immunize for smallpox.

Note that there is no oral vaccine for smallpox to this day.

State of the Art in 1500 for Smallpox was inoculation as practiced in China. The rest of the world hasn't glommed on to this, and is unlikely to do so until word of it reaches them (Ground up scabs stuck in a wound or snorted? I mean, really....).

Vaccination would require a large enough population with both cowpox and smallpox to observe, some really clever observational work, and then some methodical work to prove.

Malta is probably too small to have enough cases to obseve. It is also not clear that cowpox even occurs in Malta (doubtful, actually, since it is the vole that is the main reservoir for this disease).

So bottom line....I think first you need people to see inoculation before they make the next leap to vaccination. These islands are too small for a natural laboratory. Having people with a scientific world-view would help make the observation. The biggest area infected with cowpox is the UK, so that is probably why the first vaccination work happened there.

What I would recommend is having some way over the next decade or so for inoculation with weaker strains of smallpox to be introduced to Europe (either from China or separately invented). Then have the initial work on vaccination occur somewhere on the island of Great Britain (could be Scotland, though I'm willing to have it happen in England :D).


Hmmmm....okay, you could have a Hospitaller in the Levant for a few years, see two overlapping outbreaks, one of a more minor strain that just reaches his area and kills fewer than usual, and then another that is a major strain that causes devastation to nearby towns not struck by the last outbreak, but that seems to spare those towns struck earlier by the previous minor strain. Then a few years after, have another minor strain break out (it could even be back in Rhodes or on Malta), and he convinces people to purposely get infected, starting the practice of inoculation (death rate 10%).

[Keenir]

1506. The Knights of Rhodes officially vote to

ooc: "vote"? the name wasn't the jurisprovidence of the Grand Master?

[Keenir]

1507: A
1508: The Hospitalers "perfect" a treatment which is more than fifty percent effective in providing immunity against smallpox, which they willingly share with the Hansa, and anyone else who will listen, particularly other religious orders. While deeply flawed, this process has the potential to save nearly half of those treated with it.

ooc: maybe take a few years...5 years?

I have a funny feeling that it'd work best when slathered on a patient's arm, when the patient has little nicks and cuts on said arm. just a hunch.

[marl_d]

1500: Upon hearing of the letter the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire sent to the Pope, Spain and Naples proposing being crowned Caesar as a successor to Rome, Ivan writes the Following to the Sultan:
To Ahmed Ibn-Bayezid Sultan of the Ottoman Empire,
I must object to your claim as the successor to Rome, and appeal to the Pope, King and Queen of Spain, and King of Naples that this coronation does not go through as I, Tsar Ivan III claim this title based on my marriage to Zoe Palaiologina (Sophia Paleologue) nice of Emperor Constantine XI Palaiologos. I demand that I am recognized as such, in return will support your Title as Caesar of the Mohammedans. I will also continue to support your actions against the Malmuks as is required by our alliance.
Tsar Ivan III

Late in 1501: Ahmed writes the following to the Tsar:
To Ivan (third of your name) III Vasilevich (Иван III Васильевич), Tsar of the Rus’ and Tsar of conquered peoples of the North,

I confess I am confused. You state that you will allow me the title “Caesar of the Muslims,” yet refuse to recognize me as “Caesar” and refuse to recognize the very successor nature of my capital, founded by Emperor Constantine himself?

I also confess to curiosity: how are you to bring any army or navy to bear upon the Mamluks? You are far removed from any supporter of the Mamluks which I am aware of.

(OOC: Ivan is objecting to Ahemd's claim to being a successor to Rome, while he has a direct connection, and the mamluks, I'm allied with Moldavia, and Whalcovia, more finical, though with some military support too

[Glen]

1500: using the gold which they received for the sail of Sicily to Napples, the Spanish outfit Columbus with a moderately-sized armada, instructing him to sail to the new world and claim as much of it for Spain as possible. Columbus sets out, planning to map the Caribbean and the fabled continental lands which border it.

What's the delay? IOTL Columbus went back a lot sooner IIRC....

[DuQuense]

1507 May: After discussions with the Franciscans from Rome, the Regent signs the proclomation establishing the Ndongolese Inquisition.
the Inquisitions were set up to find secret Jewish or Muslims, nether of which you will have.

Also even under great pressure from Spain, Portugal right next door withstood Spain till the 1530. So 50 years after Spain set up the first Inquisitions.

You are ok with the wars, but I think you are moving to fast in the Religious sphere. There would be a lot more low level Resistance, and with the poor travel times in country ............

[Glen]

Latin: "From Sea to Sea."



OOC: We have none. But once we conquer Lunda, and then through Malawi, and into Mozambique we will know. We'll ask for your help against the Omanis to conquer this land, and tolerate the Muslims- As we have learned you tolerate Christians.

Sorry, but no. How do you expect to extend across all that territory in the 16th century? To the best of my knowledge, there was never a Sub-Saharan nation that pulled that off. The terrain is not favorable to fast movements or travel. You face dozens and dozens of tribes that are not going to welcome you with open arms.

Can it be done? Theoretically. But it will be the work of lifetimes.

[DuQuense]

1500: using the gold which they received for the sail of Sicily to Napples, the Spanish outfit Columbus with a moderately-sized armada, instructing him to sail to the new world and claim as much of it for Spain as possible. Columbus sets out, planning to map the Caribbean and the fabled continental lands which border it.Maybe this is a ATL 5th Voyage. bigger than his 1497 voyage that established the Hispaniola colony

[Glen]

1500: Upon hearing of the letter the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire sent to the Pope, Spain and Naples proposing being crowned Caesar as a successor to Rome, Ivan writes the Following to the Sultan:
To Ahmed Ibn-Bayezid Sultan of the Ottoman Empire,
I must object to your claim as the successor to Rome, and appeal to the Pope, King and Queen of Spain, and King of Naples that this coronation does not go through as I, Tsar Ivan III claim this title based on my marriage to Zoe Palaiologina (Sophia Paleologue) nice of Emperor Constantine XI Palaiologos. I demand that I am recognized as such, in return will support your Title as Caesar of the Mohammedans. I will also continue to support your actions against the Malmuks as is required by our alliance.
Tsar Ivan III

Late in 1501: Ahmed writes the following to the Tsar:
To Ivan (third of your name) III Vasilevich (Иван III Васильевич), Tsar of the Rus’ and Tsar of conquered peoples of the North,

I confess I am confused. You state that you will allow me the title “Caesar of the Muslims,” yet refuse to recognize me as “Caesar” and refuse to recognize the very successor nature of my capital, founded by Emperor Constantine himself?

I also confess to curiosity: how are you to bring any army or navy to bear upon the Mamluks? You are far removed from any supporter of the Mamluks which I am aware of.

1502. Cem the Pretender dies. Upon his death, a shocking discovery is made when a young Greek lady of Rhodes comes forward as Cem's mistress, who has born him a son, named Constantine by her. The girl has a wild notion of using her son to launch a crusade for Constantinople, or at the very least, making him king of Rhodes, and this latter idea is wildly popular with Greek Rhodeans. Crowds throughout Rhodes protest for young Constantine (who has a claim to the Byzantine throne through his grandmother) to be made King of Rhodes.

1503: Emperor Ahmed, taken aback by the rumours that he has a cousin, fires off a message to Grand Master DAubusson. Ahmed both demands confirmation/negation of these rumors, and demands that the boy be brought to Constantinople.

1503-07: (ooc: will be determined once I receive DAubusson’s reply)

OTL: Karabıyıkıoğlu (“son of Blackbeard”) Hasan Halife, aka Şahkulu (“slave of the Shah”) a prominent rebel leader who is hailed as both a Messiah and as a Prophet. He has followers in Rumeli and in Anatolia.

Summer 1504-late spring 1509: Ahmed of the Ottoman Empire fights to put down uprisings led (but poorly coordinated) by Karabıyıkıoğlu Hasan Halife, imprisoning the rebel leader at first opportunity.

10 September 1509: Great earthquake takes place. Annals record it as “Lesser Judgement Day.” Istanbul and the surrounding area is devastated. {that was all OTL}

OTL: By this point in time, Emperor Ahmed’s sons are Osman, Alaedin, and Murad. (ooc: in ATL he might have more, but they'd be younger sons - these are his sons born before Bayezid's OTL death)

By November of 1509, Prince Osman has already begun amassing a following in the province of Istanbul: his speeches, given between the times of prayer for devoted Muslims, also count many Christians among the listeners. Osman tells of God’s impatience, that the Lord Allah indeed blesses the Empire, but has sent the earthquake to remind the people that He desires action be taken against the heretic, and not to waste so much time with the schismatic and the unbeliever – translation: Osman has been tasked by God to raise a war against Persia (rather than deal over-much with the Latins). (for Persia hasn’t yet been struck down like Egypt has)

OTL-vs-ATL Note: while Bayezid was rather spiritual, and thus left Persia alone; Ahmed’s only reason for not tackling Persia is that he’s already occupied elsewheres. Historians might well wonder if ATL Ahmed had any role in the planning for this raising of an army.

So there's been a change in leadership, eh?

[Glen]

the Inquisitions were set up to find secret Jewish or Muslims, nether of which you will have.

Also even under great pressure from Spain, Portugal right next door withstood Spain till the 1530. So 50 years after Spain set up the first Inquisitions.

You are ok with the wars, but I think you are moving to fast in the Religious sphere. There would be a lot more low level Resistance, and with the poor travel times in country ............

Agreed. Inquisition disallowed....for now.

[Keenir]

the Inquisitions were set up to find secret Jewish or Muslims, nether of which you will have.

they probably still have animists, though.

[Keenir]

Sorry, but no. How do you expect to extend across all that territory in the 16th century? To the best of my knowledge, there was never a Sub-Saharan nation that pulled that off. The terrain is not favorable to fast movements or travel. You face dozens and dozens of tribes that are not going to welcome you with open arms.

Can it be done? Theoretically. But it will be the work of lifetimes.

I think that that's why it was OOC rather than IC. just a hunch. :)
:cool:

[Keenir]

So there's been a change in leadership, eh?

yes. Bayezid in OTL ruled well into 1511.

[Keenir]

1500 Summer: Prince Arthur of England falls ill, suffering from sweating spells. He has a long but full recovery. During his convalescence, he wiles away the time reading through the newest edition of Le Mort D'Arthur.

um, wasn't that written in the 18th or 19th century?

[AJNolte]

What's the delay? IOTL Columbus went back a lot sooner IIRC....

Big distracting crusade.

[AJNolte]

To the best of my knowledge, a blood and milk mix from cows taken orally will not immunize for smallpox.

Note that there is no oral vaccine for smallpox to this day.

State of the Art in 1500 for Smallpox was inoculation as practiced in China. The rest of the world hasn't glommed on to this, and is unlikely to do so until word of it reaches them (Ground up scabs stuck in a wound or snorted? I mean, really....).

Vaccination would require a large enough population with both cowpox and smallpox to observe, some really clever observational work, and then some methodical work to prove.

Malta is probably too small to have enough cases to obseve. It is also not clear that cowpox even occurs in Malta (doubtful, actually, since it is the vole that is the main reservoir for this disease).

So bottom line....I think first you need people to see inoculation before they make the next leap to vaccination. These islands are too small for a natural laboratory. Having people with a scientific world-view would help make the observation. The biggest area infected with cowpox is the UK, so that is probably why the first vaccination work happened there.

What I would recommend is having some way over the next decade or so for inoculation with weaker strains of smallpox to be introduced to Europe (either from China or separately invented). Then have the initial work on vaccination occur somewhere on the island of Great Britain (could be Scotland, though I'm willing to have it happen in England :D).


Hmmmm....okay, you could have a Hospitaller in the Levant for a few years, see two overlapping outbreaks, one of a more minor strain that just reaches his area and kills fewer than usual, and then another that is a major strain that causes devastation to nearby towns not struck by the last outbreak, but that seems to spare those towns struck earlier by the previous minor strain. Then a few years after, have another minor strain break out (it could even be back in Rhodes or on Malta), and he convinces people to purposely get infected, starting the practice of inoculation (death rate 10%).



I think the Levantine idea is a good one. I'll also work more with established methods.

Thanks for your input.

[Glen]

um, wasn't that written in the 18th or 19th century?

Ah, young one, no it was not. It was written by Sir Thomas Malory and was first published in 1485.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Morte_d'Arthur

[Glen]

In the south of the HRE, during the opening years of the 16th century, the doctrine preached by Heinrich Schneider (the obscure priest mentioned before) begin to spread beyond just Wien.
While the local church authorities are a bit disapproving, his doctrine does continue to spread.

One specific fact that helps to ensure the spread of his doctrine is the support it recieves from the nobles and administrators (often the same group) in and around Wien.

However, it also appeals to the common people - this Heinrich Schneider has a lot in common with Savanarola to the south, save that he is less focused on the evils of earthly wealth and art (largely because there isn't that much art in Wien, especially compared to Florence) and very focused on reforming the corruption within the church.

Date of this?

[BlackMage]

Yolgnu

1503:

The first Yolgnu 'land clearances' begin. Militias, under the control of Djerrkura (leader of the Yolgnu), begin forcibly moving the decimated Yolgnu population into coastal villages. Those who refuse are often killed.

The Yolgnu Bate Salapang, of 15 elders, military leaders and spiritual leaders, is convened to advise Djerrkura.

The Yolgnu capital is established on the north-eastern corner of Marege. It is mostly a run-down collection of shacks, with a small port.

1504:

Gowa are defeated in the Four Months War, thus opening up Marege markets to ambitious powers from across Indonesia. This also frees the Yolgnu from their treaty obligations dating from the First Yolgnu War.

The Yolgnu begin a military buildup, purchasing military equipment from the new traders.

A bad fishing season, however, proves disastrous, with several of the new 'villages' failing in their first year. The Yolgnu are forced to face the very real prospect of starvation.

As a result, Yolgnu fleets are forced to trawl further and further out into the Royal Gulf (OTL's Gulf of Carpentaria)

1505:

Djerrkura becomes increasingly ill from old war wounds, delegating much of his authority to the Bate Salapang.

Treaties of friendship are concluded with Gowa, Tallok, and the Majahapit Empire.

The Yolgnu village of Nhulunbuy is established as an 'open' trading village to foreign powers-in effect, a free city. Foreign merchants and fishermen quickly come to outnumber the local Yolgnu population.

1506:

Despite its recent advances, the Yolgnu nation is still weak. Racked by foreign diseases, technologically inferior, superstitious, and with an increasingly infirm leader, the survival of the only truly independent Aboriginal nation in northern Marege seems increasingly doubtful.

As a result, the ambitious principalities of Siang and Maros decide to launch a war of conquest against Yolgnu. With Yolgnu territory in their possession, they will dominate northern Marege.

The opening attack is the burning of the Yolgnu capital. Djerrkura manages to escape, but dozens of his minders are killed. The invaders set up port in the ruins. From his new capital at Nhulunbuy, Djerrkura swears 'total war' against the invaders-the beginning of the Second Yolgnu War.

Yolgnu's allies aid them in the naval conflict. Tallok burn the port of Siang, and destroy most of their fleet. This forces them out of the conflict. In the decisive Battle of the Royal Gulf, the Maros fleet, attempting to bring supplies to their soldiers in Marege, is decimated.

On Marege, Yolgnu warriors make swift work of the beseiged invasion force. Tribes allied with Siang or Maros are conquered or massacred. Rather than conquering the Yolgnu, the war merely increases Yolgnu territory.

Maros continue to fight against the Yolgnu for the rest of the year, but it is clear that the nation's survival is assured.

1507:

The post-war peace treaty is harsh. Half the remaining ships from the fleets of Siang and Maros are handed over to Yolgnu, and large indemnities are paid. With this technology and funding, Nhulumbuy is transformed into a truly royal capital-with cosmopolitan markets, Hindu temples, and a vast fishing fleet. The other villages of Yolgnu pale in insignificance, and their populations steadily decline.

Djerrkura dies in late 1507. After a brief skirmish between rival claimants, the throne passes to his son, who takes the regnal title Djerrkura II.

[DuQuense]

The post-war peace treaty is harsh. Half the remaining ships from the fleets of Siang and Maros are handed over to Yolgnu, and large indemnities are paid. With this technology and funding, Nhulumbuy is transformed into a truly royal capital-with cosmopolitan markets, Hindu temples, and a vast fishing fleet. The other villages of Yolgnu pale in insignificance, and their populations steadily decline.

Djerrkura dies in late 1507. After a brief skirmish between rival claimants, the throne passes to his son, who takes the regnal title Djerrkura II.

I have major problems with the speed of all this,
From wandering tribes to a -- truly royal capital-with cosmopolitan markets, Hindu temples, and a vast fishing fleet---In only 12 years,
when the British who tried OTL to teach/establish Imported culture, took over 100 years. and Failed

[Keenir]

Yolgnu
Djerrkura dies in late 1507. After a brief skirmish between rival claimants, the throne passes to his son, who takes the regnal title Djerrkura II.

question: does this tribe usually have leaders take the names of their predecessors?

[Glen]

I have major problems with the speed of all this,
From wandering tribes to a -- truly royal capital-with cosmopolitan markets, Hindu temples, and a vast fishing fleet---In only 12 years,
when the British who tried OTL to teach/establish Imported culture, took over 100 years. and Failed

Good point. I suggest toning down the entries. Please counter or rewrite.

[Keenir]

1509 December 25: Arthur Tudor is formally crowned on Christmas Day, taking the regnal name King Arthur II. Historians formally mark this date as the beginning of the "Second" Arthurian Age.

wasn't the "first" Arthurian Age a myth, a legend?

[marl_d]

thats probably why it's in quotes

[BlackMage]

question: does this tribe usually have leaders take the names of their predecessors?

No. It's an adapted custom from the Macassans.

[BlackMage]

I have major problems with the speed of all this,
From wandering tribes to a -- truly royal capital-with cosmopolitan markets, Hindu temples, and a vast fishing fleet---In only 12 years,
when the British who tried OTL to teach/establish Imported culture, took over 100 years. and Failed

Well, there's differences-trade, as opposed to conquest. But you're right, I've had problems with that. I'm going to slow and tone it down in second draft.

[Glen]

wasn't the "first" Arthurian Age a myth, a legend?

thats probably why it's in quotes

At this time, many took the Arthur story as history, or based on history. The Tudors encouraged this view, given their Welsh origins.

We ourselves can argue whether there's a grain of truth to the story of Arthur Pendragon, whether it is legend or even myth.

Arthur Tudor was named Arthur for specific political reasons. ITTL, he's going to live up to that.

[pompejus]

1505 (discussed with Pompages): Active resistance to Albertine rule in Gruningen intensifies into outright rebellion. Albert is forced to start campaigning there on a regular basis. Albertine Saxony officially goes broke.
1506-7. The war goes badly for the Albertines, as Gruningen's partisans know the country. Calls for help from Burgundy and the Empire fall on deaf ears.

I would like to add that Burgundy doesn't help because of Burgundy's involvement in the Utrecht civil war



1507. Duke Albert is killed in a skurmish with partisans from Gruningen. His duchy now passes to his fourth son Frederick, grand-master of the Teutonic order. In Saxony, resentment of the Hapsburgs begins to grow, even in Ernestine Saxony where Frederick begins to think that the Emperor has treated his brother shabbily.
1508. (discussed previously with John). Albertine Saxony is deeply in debt, and attempting to remedy the situation would harm both Frederick and the Hansa. Therefore, Grand-master Frederick sells his claim to the duchy to his cousin, Frederick the Elector of Ernestine Saxony. Grand-master Frederick and the Teutonic Knights and Hansa benefit richly from the sale, balancing their books and pouring more money into their richly outfitted expedition to the new world. Duke of a now reunited Saxony, Frederick offers Gruningen for sail, to the highest bidder (Burgundy and Anti-Burgundians, feel free to make offers).

Burgundy would like to buy Groningen, but because it recently bought the bishopric of Utrecht, it has too few money to buy it. Because of this the count of East-frisia (who is a sympathiser to the Anti-Burgundian alliance) manages to outbid him for Groningen. He also makes it clear that he is willing to back it up with force.

PS it is Groningen with an O
PPS it is pompejus (the Dutch name for Pompey)

[AJNolte]

Ah, thanks Pompejus, and forgive me, as always, my incredibly bad spelling.

1508: Groningen is transferred to the count of East Frisia. I would like to add that Burgundy doesn't help because of Burgundy's involvement in the Utrecht civil war




Burgundy would like to buy Groningen, but because it recently bought the bishopric of Utrecht, it has too few money to buy it. Because of this the count of East-frisia (who is a sympathiser to the Anti-Burgundian alliance) manages to outbid him for Groningen. He also makes it clear that he is willing to back it up with force.

PS it is Groningen with an O
PPS it is pompejus (the Dutch name for Pompey)

[AJNolte]

Err, belay that East Frisia purchass: it seems we have a bidding war. Can we push the sail of Groningen to the International Discussions thread?1508 - the Elector of Upper Palatinate throws his hat in the ring, relying on the rich iron mines of his realm to finance his bid for the purchase of Gruningen and other lands purchaseable.

[Keenir]

(snip withdrawl from bidding)

yeah, Philip's still in the running.

sorry about all that hypotheticals in the PMs.

[AJNolte]

No prob: Pompejus, appologies for the inconveniance also.

I've posted preliminary discussions of the two bids in 'international discussions', including the caveat that Henry of Trier will get Groningen if neither bid is satisfactory. (snip withdrawl from bidding)

yeah, Philip's still in the running.

sorry about all that hypotheticals in the PMs.

[AJNolte]

I PMed the Pope about appointing Pierre DAubusson Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, which I think is a logical move. Does anyone have any objections to this? I'm thinking 1501 would be the time.

[Keenir]

I PMed the Pope about appointing Pierre DAubusson Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, which I think is a logical move. Does anyone have any objections to this? I'm thinking 1501 would be the time.

makes sense.

no objections from any of my nations.

(well, maybe a holler of objection from Nan Madol) :rolleyes::D

[Glen]

Aussey, suggest that you make obscure 'who' made him Bishop. He can act as 'South Africa' bishop, but perhaps not an official title?

Also, that Maria-Christina of Naples, is she an OTL historical figure? Otherwise, just state 'a lady of the court' or some such. Might also want to mention specifically that she's been 'raised up' to fill this role. In any event, I'd prefer you used no name or a different name than Maria-Christina to avoid confusion.

Yes, it is a common name.

BTW, you're getting away with a lot of name dropping since you are having so many rename themselves, obscuring their OTL identities.

Please address and repost here.

If that's the case, I may send a more minor Prince to Spain, and the current ambassador to the Holy Roman Emperor. We will, of course, value our alliance with Kongo before all other.

I didn't. He was made a BISHOP. Not primate. Besides, Ndongo is south of Kongo, we made him Bishop of Ndongo, and Africa Australi, or south Africa, refers to the fact that we wish to expand southward. Not northward (except for Lunda- which is northeastward.) Of course, again, we wish to cooperate with Kongo.

Yes. Of course.

It's a common name. She's a minor lady from the Neapolitan king's court. Only made a Donna to marry the Prince.

We are. Just a few things, like supplies for the altar, and silver and stuff. If you didn't know, from the Congo south, is full of diamonds. Diamonds. And ivory.

Great! Because the heathen kingdom of Luango is to YOUR north, and the Kongolese claimed to be overlords- but you just physically bring it under your yoke. Help us conquer Lunda, we'll help you conquer Luango :)

Of course. That's why I said a few. Just throwing it in their, so it doesn't seem like we're not using them.

Thanks!
Catholic Africa Will Rule The Continent.

Few points:
1. Spain will probably be supporting Kongo considerably more than Ndongo, as Ndongo is in the Neapolitan sphere of influence.
2. I don't really think you can get your bishop made primate of all Southern Africa. OTL Henriqe of Kongo was given the defunct bishopric of Eutica, and that was about as far as it was going to go. Plus there is another Christian kingdom in the nearby area with close ties to the church--particularly in Spain (by which, of course, I mean Kongo). Speaking of which, are you responding to the Kongolese offer of alliance?
3. Isn't Maria-Christina of Naples already married to Alphonso's youngest son?
4. Where are you getting the money for all this? Cathedrals are expensive, and importing materials from Northern Germany even more so. Wouldn't building it out of local materials be more feasible?
5. I think the Kongolese would be willing to send troops on your crusade.
6. Keep in mind that there aren't a whole lot of Rhodeans in Ndongo as of this moment.

In general though, I like what you're doing, and have similar plans for Kongo actually.

1505 March: After delayed visits and tours, Prince João-Baptista arrives back in Ndongo, with an even grander entourage of Franciscan monks, Neapolitan men to mine the interior, Spaniard artisans, and such; Rhodean knights, and treasures beyond compare. King Diego and his Queen throw a large parade in honor of what the Ndongolese consider to be "model Catholics."

The Neapolitans, along with a few Rhodean knights, and a conquistador, are granted a charter by King Diego to colonize and conquer the unconquered lands of the powerful, heathen kingdom of Lunda in the north in the name of the King. King Diego declares his kingdom to be "a mari usque ad mare," after learning of the Indian Ocean and Muslim Africans from Prince João-Baptista.

1505 April: Prince João-Baptista is created "Duke of Angoy," and made Royal Ambassador to Their Catholic Majesties of Spain, and Prince Fernando of Matamba is made Royal Ambassador to the Kingdom of Naples-Sicily-Jerusalem. Their re-depart is scheduled for the fall.

1505 May: Prince João-Baptista and his betrothed, Donna Anna Christina de Lannoy of Naples, are married at small Franciscan parish Church of Santa Chiarra in the capital. Queen Betânia gives birth to a daughter, who is named "Maria Anna-Clara," and is given to the now-Princess Anna Christina of Naples to raise, whom the infant princess is named after. King Diego replaces Portugese with Italian as lingua franca of southern Africa.

1505 Summer: Construction on a cathedral in São Rafael begin. Prince Sebastião returns, having victoriously conquered the Jaga Cassangi. He is created "Principe-Conquistatore del Regno," and marries an Ndongolese noble woman, the Lady Anastasia-Cristina. He is made Royal Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, and plans to leave with the other ambassadors in the fall.

1505 August: TRH Prince João-Baptista, Princess Anna Christina of Naples, and the infant Infanta Maria Anna-Clara, depart for Spain; Prince Fernando departs for Naples; and TRH Prince Sebastião and Princess Anastasia-Cristina depart for Istambul. Instead of purely European dress, they are now all suited in European-cut clothing, with African materials, jewlry, and patterns. They truly look exotic, and representative of the Kingdoms of Ndongo and Matamba.

1505 September 17: Under influence from his Franciscan tendala, or Chief Advisor, King Diego signs the Act of Unification, unifying the kingdoms of Ndongo and Matamba as "Regno di Ndongo-Matamba-" the Kingdom of Ndongo-Matamba. It becomes known as Giorno di regnoSan , or "Kingdom Day," and in honor of this, King Diego declares Saint Lamberto di Maastricht, Co-Patron Saint of Ndongo-Matamba.

1505 November: TRH Prince João-Baptista, Princess Anna Christina of Naples, and the infant Infanta Maria Anna-Clara arrive in Madrid, Spain. More troops Ndongolese-Matamban troops are sent to help fight in Lunda.

1505 Christmas Day: The first Ndongolese bishop, Saint Lorenzo, is consecrated as "Bishop of All Africa-Austalis," by the Franciscan bishops.

1506 Winter/1507 Early Winter: The Spanish ship is sent to the Hansa, headed by a Matamban noble by the name of Count Marco-Felipe Mbandi, to purchase more materials for the Cathedral in São Rafael.

[Glen]

It wasn't the tour I was thinking about, but the events incountry. ?A cathedral in the Kongo?, only 30 years after first contact.
I also expected more resistance to the Africans, this is not cosmopolitian Rome where it only matter that you act like a Roman to be accepted as Civiliviled.
I also have a too quick feeling about what is happening in northern austrilia.

The conversion is mostly nobles (and surface at that), and is reasonably in keeping with events OTL to be allowed.

The cathedral however is way too much too soon, I agree. Aussey, you need to justify it or remove the cathedral. A nice church wouldn't be remiss, though.

[Glen]

1505 March: 1506 Winter/1507 Early Winter: The Spanish ship is sent to the Hansa, headed by a Matamban noble by the name of Count Marco-Felipe Mbandi, to purchase more materials for the Cathedral in São Rafael.

Never mind about the cathedral, as you're only starting construction, not completing.

Note this will take many decades for Ndongo, many decades indeed....

[Glen]

Summer 1500 through mid-Fall 1500: Sultan Ahmed of the Ottoman Empire orders the felling of a great many trees in order to increase the size of his navy. A few cannons are also commissioned, but nowhere near enough to give every one of the new ships the same number of cannons as the pre-existing Ottoman navy has per ship.

Also during this time, the Ottoman army drills ever-harder, preparing for their strike against the Mamluk holdouts in Arabia. Supplies and back-up stores and reserves are placed on each ship, with the intention that nobody runs out of food or water during the campaign.

In Arabia? Where? Why are there Mamelukes in Arabia?

[Psychomeltdown]

1500
Pedro Alvares Cabral is blown off course and discovers Brazil, claims it for Portugal.

Bartholomeu Dias ship is not wrecked off the coast of the Cape of Good Hope.

Pedro Alvares Cabral, using his superior weapons and soldiers, manages to get a trading concessions out of the rulers of Sofala (Mozambique), Kilwa (Tanzania), and Melinde (Kenya).

Pedro Alvares Cabral arrives in India with 10 of his original 13 ships. The larger amount of ships allows for him to make demands upon the ports he arrives to. Calicut and Cochin accept trading agreements, but Calicut is displeased with the actions of the Portuguese.

Kind Manoel I begins to shift his previous position on the issue of Jews in Portugal, after the death of his son, Miguel. Ties with Spain would become more strained as Monoel begin shifting his gaze more outward then toward Iberia. There is also the issue of whom Manoel I will marry.

1501

Cabral returns to Portugal with 9 of his 13 ships. Richly laden and richly rewarded by King Manoel.

The church begins asserting itself on the Jewish matter. After the lapsed and un-enforced Decree to Expel Jews, they have been chomping at the bit to chase out those jews that are still in Portugal. Manoel refuses to make a decision upon the issue and this does not sit well with the church.

Calicut kills off or chases off the Portuguese left behind in Calicut to oversee Portuguese interests.

1502

Vasco De Gama sails with 25 warships to India, to keep control of the trading ports that Cabral has opened for the Portuguese.

De Gama sets up a fort at the harbor of Kilwa.

De Gama sacks the coastal city of Mombasa.

King Manoel I begins expanding the shipyards and the size of Portugal’s trading fleet and navy.

King Manoel I marries Margaret Tudor of England.

1503

Anti Jewish riots rage in Lisbon, at the behest of Catholic priests, killing 3000 Jews. Manoel I stamps out the riots and executes the leaders. This definitely does not sit well with the Catholic Church.

Vasco De Gama forces Calicut to agree to renewned trading concessions, after smashing their fleet and bombarding their city.

Cochin is also added to the ports that the Portuguese now trade at.

Vasco De Gama continues to reinforce and expand Portuguese trading ports in East Africa and India. He crushes Arab shipping and bombards port cities until they agree to his concessions.

Vasco De Gama returns to Portugal. Due to his great success in India and his expanding of Portuguese interests, Manoel I entitles Vasco De Gama to be the first viceroy in India. He accepts.

1504

More anti-Jewish Riots pop up in and around Lisbon and other cities, most encouraged by Catholic priests. The Church is putting heavy pressure on Manoel to expel the Jews, but it’s more becoming a fight for who has the most power, the King or the Church than the issue over Jews continuing to live in Portugal.

Margaret of Portugal gives birth to a healthy baby boy, named Manoel II.

Vasco De Gama and 30 ships leave for India, with orders to solidify Portuguese claims and to create a monopoly

Vasco De Gama solidifies and strengthens forts and harbors along Eastern Africa.

1505

Manoel I and the Church leaders disagreements finally come to a head. Manoel, although a pious Catholic, cannot tolerate the continued interference by the priests and their continual rousing up riots and causing damage. He cuts funding to the church and exiles the leaders of those that oppose him, others he executes.

Vasco De Gama continues to fortify his positions in India, Calicut and Cochin. Explorations are made along the India Coast.



...



is The Sandman still contributing. i've just written that I've take a big chunk of the smaller city states and territories that he had been holding.

Kilwa,
Sofala,
Melinde

Anyone playing Calicut or Cochin?

[Glen]

is The Sandman still contributing. i've just written that I've take a big chunk of the smaller city states and territories that he had been holding.

Kilwa,
Sofala,
Melinde

Anyone playing Calicut or Cochin?

Check with DQ on some of this, please.

And PM Sandman to let him know what's going on and give him a chance to respond.

[Glen]

Note that DQ's and Psych's events are in conflict.

DQ's were first, and posted a while ago.

Try and work things out between you two. If not, we'll have to take it to the mods (DQ will have to sit this one out since it directly involves him).

1501
following the collaspe of the Delphi Sultanates north of the Empire the Empire had sent troops north to resolve some border issues. in the west this brought the border to Mumbaiand followed Mountain ridges and the Rivers [Godavari] and other defendable landmarks east. in 1501 the Empire began constrasting a series of forts along the new border.

1502
on his way to India Da Gama stops in Mobossa which he had beeen thrown out of in 1498, bombards and captures the town.

1502
Vasa da Gama returned with a fleet of 20 Ships and demanded that the trade routes and Markets be opened to Portugese control.
When this was refused he opened fire, trying to sink the Indian ships in Port.
During the counterattack 10 portuguese ships are sunk including Da Gama's flagship. several hundred Portuguese are captured, & Da Gama is Killed.
The remaining ships retreat to Mobassa.

1502
Several thousand shipyard workers from south India and the Maldives move to Ethiophia to work in the new shipyards being built there.

1503
A delagation from Ethiopia arrives to ramson the Portuguese, and buy the salvaged Ships.

[The Sicilian]

Okay, I fell like I sould clarify the 'Christina' bit.

Maria Christina is the daughter of the Ottoman Grand Vizier who converted when she married Prince Alphonso of Naples (the youngest son of King Alphonso). P. Alphonso is currently the head of the Kings delagation to Ndongo.

Anna Christina de Lannoy was a minor lady in the Neapolitan court who married one of the Princes of Ndongo (me and Aussey talked bout wether this could happen over PM). I believe that she is made up, but could be related to Philip de Lannoy, Prince of Sulmona.

[Psychomeltdown]

Note that DQ's and Psych's events are in conflict.

DQ's were first, and posted a while ago.

Try and work things out between you two. If not, we'll have to take it to the mods (DQ will have to sit this one out since it directly involves him).

Well, DQ was trying to make it so that the Portuguese came to naught in the Indian Ocean, so that his Ethiopian nation would rise to dominance. Which I just don't see happening.

We have to remember that Portuguese ships were heavily armed and well crewed. To lose 10 ships in a battle is an incredible lose, especally when the nations at this time and place only had small galley like ships that could not hope to match the firepower or the strength of a carrack or carvel.

As as that DQ does not play Portugal, I think my statements should stand as.

[Tom Veil]

1500
Pedro Alvares Cabral is blown off course and discovers Brazil, claims it for Portugal.

Bartholomeu Dias ship is not wrecked off the coast of the Cape of Good Hope.

Pedro Alvares Cabral, using his superior weapons and soldiers, manages to get a trading concessions out of the rulers of Sofala (Mozambique), Kilwa (Tanzania), and Melinde (Kenya).

Pedro Alvares Cabral arrives in India with 10 of his original 13 ships. The larger amount of ships allows for him to make demands upon the ports he arrives to. Calicut and Cochin accept trading agreements, but Calicut is displeased with the actions of the Portuguese.
***
Anyone playing Calicut or Cochin?


1. This should either be marked as OTL (except for Dias's survival) or discarded. Cabral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_%C3%81lvares_Cabral) made almost the same trip in OTL 1500, and it was an incredible piece of luck that he was able to get from Brazil to India so quickly. From Brazil, Cabral had no idea what the prevailing winds are, and only a slight idea of how far west he has strayed -- it wasn't until the marine chronometer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_chronometer) in the 1750s that a sailor could determine longitude while in motion.
2. If this is OTL, then it's not called Brazil, it's called Terra de Santa Cruz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_de_Santa_Cruz). If it's not OTL, then an explanation of why Cabral named the new land "Red" would be nice.
3. Calicut and Cochin are both part of DQ's Vijayanagara, so you'll need to run things by him. DQ took over Vijayanagara after the TL started, which is why we went with strict OTL for some events in the 1490s.

[Psychomeltdown]

But Vijayanagara doesn't control Calicut or Cochin do they? As far as i remember they were independent states.

EDIT: Never mind. Cochin seems to be Vijayanagara...

[The Sicilian]

1506 Summer-Winter: The New World expedition is forced off course during a hurricane and lands at what would become Altavilla (Veracruz). An expedition is sent inland. They encounter a village of natives. The Sicilians take several natives to be interpreters. The Sicilians learn that the town was part of the ‘Mexica Empire’. The head of the expedition, Paolo de Messina, sends out a group of missionaries to convert the Mexica.

[Glen]

Okay, I fell like I sould clarify the 'Christina' bit.

Maria Christina is the daughter of the Ottoman Grand Vizier who converted when she married Prince Alphonso of Naples (the youngest son of King Alphonso). P. Alphonso is currently the head of the Kings delagation to Ndongo.

Anna Christina de Lannoy was a minor lady in the Neapolitan court who married one of the Princes of Ndongo (me and Aussey talked bout wether this could happen over PM). I believe that she is made up, but could be related to Philip de Lannoy, Prince of Sulmona.


No made up people that can be identified, at least not this early. Once we hit 1510, you could have all sorts of new young people popping up (born after 1493).

[Glen]

Tend to agree about the 'lucky break' storm being odd to have happen twice in the same way as OTL.

The name should definitely be something other than Brazil at this point. That is, assuming Cabral reaches there at all.

Psych's point about the force of arms he has should be considered. It may be that they get enough of an unfriendly reception to force them to withdraw (since shooting from the water accomplishes little but terror at this point). However, if fighting broke out while Da Gama was ashore, that force of arms would be less useful in defending his life.

So, the ships don't get decimated, or even captured, unless we have a compelling reason presented to believe otherwise.

Da Gama might be killed if he went ashore, though I tend to favor having unspecified members killed and Da Gama escaping to his ships as it is really for Psych to determine his fate where possible. Again, if a compelling reason can be given as to why he should die, we might need to consider it.

Well, DQ was trying to make it so that the Portuguese came to naught in the Indian Ocean, so that his Ethiopian nation would rise to dominance. Which I just don't see happening.

We have to remember that Portuguese ships were heavily armed and well crewed. To lose 10 ships in a battle is an incredible lose, especally when the nations at this time and place only had small galley like ships that could not hope to match the firepower or the strength of a carrack or carvel.

As as that DQ does not play Portugal, I think my statements should stand as.

1. This should either be marked as OTL (except for Dias's survival) or discarded. Cabral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_%C3%81lvares_Cabral) made almost the same trip in OTL 1500, and it was an incredible piece of luck that he was able to get from Brazil to India so quickly. From Brazil, Cabral had no idea what the prevailing winds are, and only a slight idea of how far west he has strayed -- it wasn't until the marine chronometer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_chronometer) in the 1750s that a sailor could determine longitude while in motion.
2. If this is OTL, then it's not called Brazil, it's called Terra de Santa Cruz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_de_Santa_Cruz). If it's not OTL, then an explanation of why Cabral named the new land "Red" would be nice.
3. Calicut and Cochin are both part of DQ's Vijayanagara, so you'll need to run things by him. DQ took over Vijayanagara after the TL started, which is why we went with strict OTL for some events in the 1490s.

[Keenir]

In Arabia? Where? Why are there Mamelukes in Arabia?

because I thought the Mamluks controlled the Holy Cities of Mecca and Medina at this point in time.

[Keenir]

Okay, I fell like I sould clarify the 'Christina' bit.

Maria Christina is the daughter of the Ottoman Grand Vizier who converted when she married Prince Alphonso of Naples

...and thus she had a (minor?) name-change. (much like the Ottoman daughters who married the voyvodas in TTL)

[The Sicilian]

No made up people that can be identified, at least not this early. Once we hit 1510, you could have all sorts of new young people popping up (born after 1493).
Well there is no one to say that they didn't exist IOTL. We just gave these people a name and a role that is significant in history.

[The Sicilian]

...and thus she had a (minor?) name-change. (much like the Ottoman daughters who married the voyvodas in TTL)
Yes, after her baptism. IIRC Pocahontas was given the Christian name Rebecca. The same thing happens here, 'cept with a Muslim lady.

[Smaug]

1506 Summer-Winter: The New World expedition is forced off course during a hurricane and lands at what would become Altavilla (Veracruz). An expedition is sent inland. They encounter a village of natives. The Sicilians take several natives to be interpreters. The Sicilians learn that the town was part of the ‘Mexica Empire’. The head of the expedition, Paolo de Messina, sends out a group of missionaries to convert the Mexica.

I have Vera Cruz right now, I'm the Huastec. pleased to meetcha.

[Glen]

because I thought the Mamluks controlled the Holy Cities of Mecca and Medina at this point in time.

My mistake. Carry on.

[DuQuense]

Quote:

1497 - The decree was passed and only a token effort was attempted to enforce it.
Although the church was willing to either forced baptization and conversion upon the jews, Manoel I tended to look the other way. the Portuguese need the Jews, they fill a vital role in the running of the economy and without them it'll cause some havoc.


The death of Isabella of Aragon in 1498 due to childbirth only makes it so that Manoel I lapses in his treaty with the Castile/Aragon on expelling the jews.
So there will be no 1505 Degree forbidding Emigration,-- that will change Brazil and Angola.

Quote:
1497
Portugal passes a degree requiring all Jews to Convert or leave Portugal.
Boabdil begins attracting a lot of the Spanish Jews, from Granada who had fled to Portugal . Along with them come thousands of Portuguese Jews.
I am going to change this

1497
Portugal passes a degree requiring all Jews to Convert or leave Portugal.
Boabdil begins attracting a lot of the Spanish Jews, from Granada who had fled to Portugal . Having been chased out of Spain They were taking no chances.
Immediately after the degree was passed thousands of Portugal Jews also fled. but as the fact of no time deadline, and the lax enforcement became known, the stream of Jewish immigrants slowed to a trickle.
Quote:
1505
For the past 8 years Tunisia due to the urging of Muhammad XII has been encouraging the Portuguese Jews expelled under the 1497 degree to immigrate to Tunisia.
In this year the first Jewish run bakery and the first Jewish Farms are started.
Changed to

1505
For the past 8 years Tunisia due to the urging of Muhammad XII has been encouraging the Sephardi Portuguese Jews expelled under the 1497 degree to immigrate to Tunisia. thro this is just a trickle, when ever some local priest or bishop, took it into his head to rail against the Jews, there would be a minor spurt.
In this year the first Jewish run bakery and the first Jewish Farms are started.
This will lead to a trickle from the Oriental Jewish communities in the North beginning to arrive

[Glen]

Well there is no one to say that they didn't exist IOTL. We just gave these people a name and a role that is significant in history.

Maybe no one, but maybe a lot of people. Bottom line, when you do that, you introduce potentially falsifiable information into the timeline, or else are potentially pushing the POD of the timeline back beyond what was the original premise. And there is no need for it.

Be patient. In just a matter of weeks, you'll not only be allowed to give people names, you will have to as we diverge enough that we are no longer dealing with OTL personages. I don't think it is too much to ask you to forestall making up names until then.

[DuQuense]

Originally Posted by DuQuense View Post
1501
following the collaspe of the Delphi Sultanates north of the Empire the Empire had sent troops north to resolve some border issues. in the west this brought the border to Mumbaiand followed Mountain ridges and the Rivers [Godavari] and other defendable landmarks east. in 1501 the Empire began constrasting a series of forts along the new border.

1502
on his way to India Da Gama stops in Mobossa which he had beeen thrown out of in 1498, bombards and captures the town.

1502
Vasa da Gama returned with a fleet of 20 Ships and demanded that the trade routes and Markets be opened to Portugese control.
When this was refused he opened fire, trying to sink the Indian ships in Port.
During the counterattack 10 portuguese ships are sunk including Da Gama's flagship. several hundred Portuguese are captured, & Da Gama is Killed.
The remaining ships retreat to Mobassa.

1502
Several thousand shipyard workers from south India and the Maldives move to Ethiophia to work in the new shipyards being built there.

1503
A delagation from Ethiopia arrives to ramson the Portuguese, and buy the salvaged Ships.

This was before Meltdown returned, I changed it in my VE thread, did I forget in the 1500-10 thread

I am thinking a very close to OTL for India/Portugal during the 15-00's thro I am willing to accept the greater trade concessions, from the western coastal kingdoms.

His attacks make them more willing to accept the VE's over-lordship.

He doesn't get any actual fee Sovereign territory till 1510 [Goa]

[The Sicilian]

Maybe no one, but maybe a lot of people. Bottom line, when you do that, you introduce potentially falsifiable information into the timeline, or else are potentially pushing the POD of the timeline back beyond what was the original premise. And there is no need for it.

Be patient. In just a matter of weeks, you'll not only be allowed to give people names, you will have to as we diverge enough that we are no longer dealing with OTL personages. I don't think it is too much to ask you to forestall making up names until then.
Fair enough, Glen. For now should we just refer to them as 'Daughter of Ottoman Vizier' and 'Random Minor Neapolitan Court Lady'?

[The Sicilian]

I have Vera Cruz right now, I'm the Huastec. pleased to meetcha.
And you as well.

[Psychomeltdown]

This was before Meltdown returned, I changed it in my VE thread, did I forget in the 1500-10 thread

I am thinking a very close to OTL for India/Portugal during the 15-00's thro I am willing to accept the greater trade concessions, from the western coastal kingdoms.

His attacks make them more willing to accept the VE's over-lordship.

He doesn't get any actual fee Sovereign territory till 1510 [Goa]

I'm still not sure if you own the Western Coastal Kingdoms or are they not yet under the dominion of the V. Empire. if they aren't, then i think i can choose as to what happens there...

[Aussey]

Fair enough, Glen. For now should we just refer to them as 'Daughter of Ottoman Vizier' and 'Random Minor Neapolitan Court Lady'?

Yes, I was think along the lines as Messiniano as well about why not when we know that, atleast in my case, the Kings had brothers/cousins/etc. Any new characters will remain nameless for Ndongo till next decade...Fair enough?

[Glen]

Fair enough, Glen. For now should we just refer to them as 'Daughter of Ottoman Vizier' and 'Random Minor Neapolitan Court Lady'?

Did the Ottoman Vizier have a daughter recorded by history born before 1493? Which Vizier?

If she's taking a new name when getting married and converting, you can use that. In fact, so long as you don't give her previous name, that simplifies things.

Personally, I'd go with a daugher from the Ottoman harem, should be plenty of those around.

The Neapolitan lady is the more troublesome one. You can make it sound nicer, but yeah, 'random minor Neapolitan lady works'.

Or you all can do a little more googling and see if you can find a Neapolitan minor family with a youngish daughter listed as unmarried in that time period and use her.

[Glen]

I'm still not sure if you own the Western Coastal Kingdoms or are they not yet under the dominion of the V. Empire. if they aren't, then i think i can choose as to what happens there...

Someone said they were under his area.

[Glen]

The question is how does the Ethiopians, whom haven't have a royal navy since basically the Axum empire are suddenly so readily to be able to create large enough vessels in about 4 years?

I'd add another five to that number, they may have gotten a couple of hundred shipwrights from India, but we're still looking at a lot of learning and a lot of infrastructure building to even begin constructing a large enough fleet. And the money, where's all the money coming from?

and ships similar to carvels? I'd add another 10 to the previous five. The Carvel is nothing like the Dhows and galley like ships used by the Indians and Arabians or Venetians. You're looking at a whole different class of building a whole different skill set that's needed.

Tend to agree.

Nations with active shipbuilding should be the first to innovate, then those with substantial contact with those nations and/or good funding, and lastly those playing catch-up.

I think you need to slow this down, DQ. Although I do agree that trying this is reasonable given the impetus the Portuguese provide.:)

[The Sicilian]

Did the Ottoman Vizier have a daughter recorded by history born before 1493? Which Vizier?

If she's taking a new name when getting married and converting, you can use that. In fact, so long as you don't give her previous name, that simplifies things.

Personally, I'd go with a daugher from the Ottoman harem, should be plenty of those around.
Me and Keenir worked out a deal where the daughter of one of his (unspecified) Viziers would marry Prince Alphonso (who didn't marry that Borgia girl in this timeline). Since I dont have the sources that list the children of Ottoman viziers in the late 15th century, she will go unamed.

The Neapolitan lady is the more troublesome one. You can make it sound nicer, but yeah, 'random minor Neapolitan lady works'.

Or you all can do a little more googling and see if you can find a Neapolitan minor family with a youngish daughter listed as unmarried in that time period and use her.

Aussey, would you like to do this?

[Glen]

Might I assume that there's no problem with DAubusson being appointed Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem?

In which case:

1509, July: Pierre DAubusson, Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, Prince of the Church and Grand Master of the Knights Hospitaler, dies.
1509, September: The Hospitalers elect Sir Thomas Docwra, an englishman, as their new grand master. Docwra becomes the first ever English grand master of the order (note Glen: I'm imagining there will be some sort of reaction from the English court to this, as it's a first for England).

I see no problem with the above events.

There will be some congratulations, but the court is somewhat distracted at this moment in time due to the succession. I will PM you to discuss the ramifications of this development.

[Glen]

Locking this thread.

If you need to discuss these events or post events that occur prior to 1510, do so in the Retro Event thread.

[Glen]

Locking this thread.

If you need to discuss these events or post events that occur prior to 1510, do so in the Retro Event thread.

Unlocking so people may help with the timeline review.