1493 International Events

[Glen]

Place here draft events and discussion thereof for events that involve territories being seen to by multiple participants, or involving international figures (from one nation, living in another, etc).

[Glen]

Events up until 1499 are now open.

[AJNolte]

(From the perspective of the Knights of Rhodes).
1494: Cem the Pretender, claimant to the Ottoman throne, flees his confignment in Paris and returns to Rhodes, calling on Pierre DAubusson, the grand-master of the order, to lead a crusade on Cem's behalf. Cem makes vague half-formed promises about converting to Christianity. Debate rages across Rhodes as to what should be done. DAubusson knows that the order is in far too vulnerable a position for a crusade at this point. Yet can he pass up the possibility of a Christian Ottoman emperor? As time passes however, it becomes clear that Cem's promised conversion to Christianity is less than genuine. Cem still promises the Rhodeans rich gifts of territory and possible restoration to Jerusalem (on which promise he's in little position to make good). Ultimately, DAubusson rejects this call for a crusade, claiming that "as the last Christian presence in Ionia it is paramount upon me, as grand-master, to look first to the order and it's preservation." Later historians have claimed that DAubusson truly was the first grand master to turn away from the crusader ideal, but this is far from the truth. In reality, DAubusson did not want a crusade which he could not win. Not all in the order agree with DAubusson however. About a hundred knights, and a strong company of men-at-arms, leave Rhodes, claiming that DAubusson has "betrayed the principles of the Order of Saint John." They take up residence at the freshly built Bodrum castle in Helecarnassus, and immediately write to the Pope calling for recognition as "the true order of Saint John". They also immediately begin raiding the Ottoman coastline in a determined fashion. Meanwhile Cem, eager to pursue the dream of empire, flees Rhodes for Spain, landing in southern Andalusia and seeking to gather an army of the disaffected Moors there.

[Glen]

(From the perspective of the Knights of Rhodes).
1494: Cem the Pretender, claimant to the Ottoman throne, flees his confignment in Paris and returns to Rhodes, calling on Pierre DAubusson, the grand-master of the order, to lead a crusade on Cem's behalf. Cem makes vague half-formed promises about converting to Christianity. Debate rages across Rhodes as to what should be done. DAubusson knows that the order is in far too vulnerable a position for a crusade at this point. Yet can he pass up the possibility of a Christian Ottoman emperor? As time passes however, it becomes clear that Cem's promised conversion to Christianity is less than genuine. Cem still promises the Rhodeans rich gifts of territory and possible restoration to Jerusalem (on which promise he's in little position to make good). Ultimately, DAubusson rejects this call for a crusade, claiming that "as the last Christian presence in Ionia it is paramount upon me, as grand-master, to look first to the order and it's preservation." Later historians have claimed that DAubusson truly was the first grand master to turn away from the crusader ideal, but this is far from the truth. In reality, DAubusson did not want a crusade which he could not win. Not all in the order agree with DAubusson however. About a hundred knights, and a strong company of men-at-arms, leave Rhodes, claiming that DAubusson has "betrayed the principles of the Order of Saint John." They take up residence at the freshly built Bodrum castle in Helecarnassus, and immediately write to the Pope calling for recognition as "the true order of Saint John". They also immediately begin raiding the Ottoman coastline in a determined fashion. Meanwhile Cem, eager to pursue the dream of empire, flees Rhodes for Spain, landing in southern Andalusia and seeking to gather an army of the disaffected Moors there.

Seems good to me. I don't think our French or Ottoman overseers should have much problem with letting Cem do this, do you guys?

[Keenir]

Seems good to me. I don't think our French or Ottoman overseers should have much problem with letting Cem do this, do you guys?

The Sublime Porte does not object.

[VulcanTrekkie45]

1493: Moldavia, Wallachia, and Austria form the Anti-Ottoman League to drive the Muslims out of Europe. (Don't worry, I alrady spoke with Austria on this.)

[Glen]

Divergence: 1492: The attack on the person of the Emperor Bayezid, Sultan and Caliph, by a practitioner of the ararchial Kalendari sect in the Rumeli territories (as opposed to the Anatolian territories) results in the death of Prince Selim (who was accompanying his father) and not death or injury to Bayezid.

Divergence 1492? No divergences earlier than March 15, 1493 are allowed. Did you mean 1493 and mis-type?

[Keenir]

Divergence 1492? No divergences earlier than March 15, 1493 are allowed. Did you mean 1493 and mis-type?

no; all the books agree that the assassination attempt was in 1492.

*deletes prior post*

1493-4: Sultan Bayezid offers an amnesty to members of the Kalenderi sect, contingent upon their willingness to be gazis on the northeast and east-northeastern borders of the Ottoman Empire, defending the realm & expanding it when possible. Orders are given that they should only fight (and expand) when first attacked....and I have writs from the ulema saying that it is greater to defend and fight, than to be wantonly aggressive.

[Glen]

no; all the books agree that the assassination attempt was in 1492.

*deletes prior post*

1493-4: Sultan Bayezid offers an amnesty to members of the Kalenderi sect, contingent upon their willingness to be gazis on the northeast and east-northeastern borders of the Ottoman Empire, defending the realm & expanding it when possible. Orders are given that they should only fight (and expand) when first attacked....and I have writs from the ulema saying that it is greater to defend and fight, than to be wantonly aggressive.


Could you tell us a little bit more about this divergence? I am not familiar witht he Kalenderi sect (at least not by that name).

[Keenir]

Could you tell us a little bit more about this divergence? I am not familiar witht he Kalenderi sect (at least not by that name).

I checked several books on the Ottomans, and (sadly) all that is said is that the Kalenderi were an anarchial sect, and that they tried (and failed) to assassinate Bayezid in Europe -- as a result, Bayezid expelled them from Europe in OTL.

my divergence is that, rather than let the Kalenderi sit in Anatolia and stir up trouble, I'm putting them between me and Austria, so the Kalenderi are the first to die.
wikipedia says only _The Mevlevi Order is also linked to other Dervish orders such as the Qadiri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qadiri) (founded in 1165), the Rifa'i (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifa%27i) (founded in 1182), and the Kalenderis._

[Glen]

I checked several books on the Ottomans, and (sadly) all that is said is that the Kalenderi were an anarchial sect, and that they tried (and failed) to assassinate Bayezid in Europe -- as a result, Bayezid expelled them from Europe in OTL.

my divergence is that, rather than let the Kalenderi sit in Anatolia and stir up trouble, I'm putting them between me and Austria, so the Kalenderi are the first to die.
wikipedia says only _The Mevlevi Order is also linked to other Dervish orders such as the Qadiri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qadiri) (founded in 1165), the Rifa'i (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifa%27i) (founded in 1182), and the Kalenderis._

Ah, but were they expelled in 1493? You may be too late...unless you want to allow them to return to the Balkans according to your agreement....that might work.

[Keenir]

Ah, but were they expelled in 1493? You may be too late...unless you want to allow them to return to the Balkans according to your agreement

yes - hence the amnesty.

....that might work.

thank you.

[Glen]

yes - hence the amnesty.

thank you.

Hey, I just want the history to read well (at least when it comes to nations I'm not involved directly with.:) ).

[Keenir]

Hey, I just want the history to read well

as do I. (I was thanking you for both the assistance, pointing it out, and giving me an out, so I wouldn't have to keep deleting threads) :)

[Keenir]

The Ottoman Empire, with open arms and glad tidings, welcome any and all Jews, Muslims, and other peoples fleeing the oppression and persecution elsewhere in Europe. {particularly Spain}

[Glen]

OTTOMAN EMPIRE:

I, Bayezid, Sultan and Caliph, Shadow of God on Earth (et etc), do, with open arms and glad tidings, welcome any and all Jews, Muslims, and other peoples fleeing the oppression and persecution elsewhere in Europe. {particularly Spain}

events, please.

[The Sicilian]

Ahem,
1494: In a departure from his Spanish brethren, the Neapolitan King Alphonso II welcomed Jews (esp. merchants, schoolars and other people concerned with economic) into his Kingdom, as it was in dire need of economic reform.

[I figure that this goes into International events, because the Jewish people need to emigrate from other nations.]

[Glen]

Ahem,
1494: In a departure from his Spanish brethren, the Neapolitan King Alphonso II welcomed Jews (esp. merchants, schoolars and other people concerned with economic) into his Kingdom, as it was in dire need of economic reform.

[I figure that this goes into International events, because the Jewish people need to emigrate from other nations.]

Hard to say. Since the Spanish threw them out, they are not controlled by the Spanish. However, if you want famous Jews known from OTL to come to Naples when they are in other places in March 1493, then you need to check with the nations they are currently in.

BTW, do you have a reason why Alphonso II is doing this? Doesn't need to be a strong one, just plausible.

[Keenir]

quote=Glen;1083664]events, please.[/quote]

edited

[RCTFI]

1493: Moldavia, Wallachia, and Austria form the Anti-Ottoman League to drive the Muslims out of Europe. (Don't worry, I alrady spoke with Austria on this.)

OOC: I think all I said was a polite 'maybe'... but the idea is a good one.

IC:

The Holy Roman Emperor, Frederick III, has become increasingly worried by Ottoman expansion, worries that are furthered by the increase in tensions between the Knights of Rhodes and the Ottomans. As such, he was willing to pay lips service to the idea of an anti-Ottoman alliance in eastern Europe, hoping that the mere threat of such an alliance will be enough to bring pause to Ottoman ambition, as any actual aid to his allies would be beyond him at this point.

[The Sicilian]

Hard to say. Since the Spanish threw them out, they are not controlled by the Spanish. However, if you want famous Jews known from OTL to come to Naples when they are in other places in March 1493, then you need to check with the nations they are currently in.

BTW, do you have a reason why Alphonso II is doing this? Doesn't need to be a strong one, just plausible.
Eh..not really. Just in the spirit of change I guess. Perhaps he had a bit much wine during the New Years celebration. Or maybe he became a student of history and saw what good they did for Poland. The point is that his Kingdom is broke and he needs fianancers for all of the new projects I plan on him planning.

BTW, I found out something interesting on Wikipedia. Isaac Abranel (yes, the Abranels of 1632 fame) fled to Naples after the decree of Alhambra and served King Ferrante. Lucky for me I just inherited the Abranel banking family, and I intend on keeping them! :D:p

[Glen]

Eh..not really. Just in the spirit of change I guess. Perhaps he had a bit much wine during the New Years celebration. Or maybe he became a student of history and saw what good they did for Poland. The point is that his Kingdom is broke and he needs fianancers for all of the new projects I plan on him planning.

BTW, I found out something interesting on Wikipedia. Isaac Abranel (yes, the Abranels of 1632 fame) fled to Naples after the decree of Alhambra and served King Ferrante. Lucky for me I just inherited the Abranel banking family, and I intend on keeping them! :D:p

Abranel may be your in, then. Have him somehow inspire the Neapolitans to extend a fair hand to Jews being expelled.

[Keenir]

1495 - Hearing of unprovoked attacks conducted by the sect he had so recently granted amnesty to, Bayezid sends a hundred janissaries to sort out those who were made gazis. Two dozen of the sect are hung for heresy. The remainder take this as the warning it is. The Ottoman border quiets down.

1496 - Led by Prince Selim, the army of the Ottoman Empire marches towards their southeast border, intent on removing the Mamluks from the area*. The majority of those janissaries who aren't in the Rumeli of the Empire are accompanying the army.


* = the area being, oh, everywhere between Konya and Jerusalem. :)

[VulcanTrekkie45]

OOC: I think all I said was a polite 'maybe'... but the idea is a good one.


OOC: Woops, sorry about that.

1496: In order to best serve the interests of their collective peoples, Vlad the Monk of Wallachia and Stephen III of Moldavia create the dual monarchy of Moldavia-Wallachia, and begin to integrate and move their armies toward the Ottoman border.

[Glen]

1495 - Hearing of unprovoked attacks conducted by the sect he had so recently granted amnesty to, Bayezid sends a hundred janissaries to sort out those who were made gazis. Two dozen of the sect are hung for heresy. The remainder take this as the warning it is. The Ottoman border quiets down.

1496 - Led by Prince Selim, the army of the Ottoman Empire marches towards their southeast border, intent on removing the Mamluks from the area*. The majority of those janissaries who aren't in the Rumeli of the Empire are accompanying the army.


* = the area being, oh, everywhere between Konya and Jerusalem. :)

Is hanging a typical Ottoman method of execution for 'heresy'? Maybe just leave it at executed...or impaled.:rolleyes:

Hmm, sounds like you and the Mamelukes are about to 'have words'.:D

[Keenir]

Is hanging a typical Ottoman method of execution for 'heresy'? Maybe just leave it at executed...or impaled.:rolleyes:

hanging tends to be for criminals and other lawbreakers...and with the threat of a foreign army about to approach, the janissaries aren't about to go the full 9 yards in terms of punishment, particularly not in rural areas. (that and this sect tried to kill the Emperor - the janissaries don't let them forget this)

Hmm, sounds like you and the Mamelukes are about to 'have words'.:D

*nods* which our empires did in OTL until, I think 1520. and then again, and again and again, later. *shrugs*

[Glen]

OOC: Woops, sorry about that.

1496: In order to best serve the interests of their collective peoples, Vlad the Monk of Wallachia and Stephen III of Moldavia create the dual monarchy of Moldavia-Wallachia, and begin to integrate and move their armies toward the Ottoman border.

A dual monarchy? What is meant by this? This move in 1496 seems without clear support. Can you give a rationale for how this came about, and explain more what is meant?

[BlackMage]

Initial POD for Makassar:

(Not sure if this should go here or in Science and Technology)

A virus mutates, randomly, in Indonesia some time in 1493, motivated to some degree by the flapping of butterfly wings in South America. The virus, although harmless to humans, proves virulent when introduced into trepang (sea cucumber) stocks. This results in a 50% reduction of trepang stocks around the Indonesian archipelago by 1500, and with the almost complete extinction of trepang in the waters surrounding Makassar.

Thus deprived of their prize catch, the trepangers of Gowa, a small kingdom centred on the port city of Makassar, are forced to look further afield...

[Glen]

Initial POD for Makassar:

(Not sure if this should go here or in Science and Technology)

A virus mutates, randomly, in Indonesia some time in 1493, motivated to some degree by the flapping of butterfly wings in South America. The virus, although harmless to humans, proves virulent when introduced into trepang (sea cucumber) stocks. This results in a 50% reduction of trepang stocks around the Indonesian archipelago by 1500, and with the almost complete extinction of trepang in the waters surrounding Makassar.

Thus deprived of their prize catch, the trepangers of Gowa, a small kingdom centred on the port city of Makassar, are forced to look further afield...


Doesn't go in Sci/Tech as this is an 'Act of God' rather than an 'Act of Man'.

If it doesn't impact anyone else's nations, it should go into Domestic Events. If it does (and indicating the whole archipelago might), then it belongs in international events.

I'd edit out the bit about the South American butterfly, though.:rolleyes:

[Cthulhu]

Would it be possible for a more vigorous desire to explore lead the Mexica to go southwards until they came across Tawatinsuyu? Or maybe made it past the North American deserts in search of historic Aztlan?

[Glen]

Would it be possible for a more vigorous desire to explore lead the Mexica to go southwards until they came across Tawatinsuyu? Or maybe made it past the North American deserts in search of historic Aztlan?

Possible, sure. You just need to come up with a plausible reason why this happens....hmmm, maybe an augury made by one of the priests?

[AJNolte]

Ahem,
1494: In a departure from his Spanish brethren, the Neapolitan King Alphonso II welcomed Jews (esp. merchants, schoolars and other people concerned with economic) into his Kingdom, as it was in dire need of economic reform.

[I figure that this goes into International events, because the Jewish people need to emigrate from other nations.]

(Extremely out of character):
Fye upon you all for stealing my Jews!! <g>
Seriously, I'm extremely annoyed by their Catholic Majesties for issuing the AlHambra decree before I could retcon it out of existence.

[AJNolte]

1495-6. The rogue Rhodean knights of Helecarnassus remain a minor thorn in the side of the Ottoman Empire, but prove very politically maladroit when they attack a galley in the service of the actual Knights of Rhodes. Rumors of a devil's alliance between rebel Rhodeans and some of the Calenderi heretics prompts an unusual show of solidarity between Rhodes and the Sublime Port, and a small joint expedition is launched. The 'nest of vipers' is cleared out of the peninsula, which is restored to the control of the Knights of Rhodes. Those rebel knights who have survived flee back to Europe, most to Spain where they are absorbed into the brotherhood of truth and a few to Germany where they join the Teutonic order.

As it turns out, there was an understanding between certain of the Muslim heretics and rebel Rhodeans. Though they had no particular love for each other, their mutual hatred of the Ottoman Empire and the Knights of Rhodes led them to band together. As a result of this event and the recent difficulties surrounding Cem, DAubusson proposes a renegotiation of the agreement whereby Cem is guarded by the Rhodeans.

[BBJ1580]

Black Mage - I'm fine with your POD. Can I assume that my nations are not particularly effected, in that the die-off hurts everyone (outside of Makassar) about equally?

[BlackMage]

Doesn't go in Sci/Tech as this is an 'Act of God' rather than an 'Act of Man'.

If it doesn't impact anyone else's nations, it should go into Domestic Events. If it does (and indicating the whole archipelago might), then it belongs in international events.

I'd edit out the bit about the South American butterfly, though.:rolleyes:

Well, I know someone's playing Mahajapandit, or whatever the Javanese Empire of the time was called; this could easily affect them.

[Redbeard]

Concerning Denmark-Norway:

I'm away from the net until some time tomorrow, but Artic Warrior is my co-regent and will if necessary post the decissions of King Hans.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

[arctic warrior]

In Copenhagen King Hans has the following to say:

"It is my will that a Royal Naval yard is to be built and fortified at Visby on Gotland, at Nakskov on Lolland as well as here in Copenhagen."


To Sten Sture in Stockholm:

"A date for the coronation is to be set in near future, my patience is running low. But I think you would look great as governor of Finland or at the end of a pole!".

To Lübeck:

"Haven't we been wearing each other down for long enough? I think we should meet to talk over some future agreements. You get peaceful access to a lot of trade and Royal protection (at a bargain tax). BTW you should see my new Royal Navy some day."

To Dithmarschen:

"I admire your skills as tradesmen and farmers, but the current status concerning formalities is a mess, we should meet and talk. I BTW need some skilled people to rule new land here and there, would any of you be interested, any titles you would like?"

[LightInfa]

1494:
Sten Sture of Sweden sends a defiant message back to Denmark:
"Sweden will not submit to the oppresors of Denmark who seek to take Sweden's treasures and resources without anything in return. I will not submit to your rule and have my people suffer so greatly. I will not allow you to be coronated as the Swedish king."

Messages are also sent to the Hanseactic League cities, asking for possible military aid in the future, and asking for the signing of a military alliance.

Sture also begins to gather troops in Sweden to repulse a possible Danish invasion. Most of his army is recruited from his main support among the peasants. Only a few nobles decide to contribute soldiers.

[AJNolte]

King Hans's naval build-up serves to unite the Wendish cities even further and make their unification into a federation all the more paramount. With the consent of the Holy Roman Emperor, the Wendish Federation is signed into law on January 5th, 1495, and immediately begins work on an extensive naval build-up at Luebeck, Hamburg, Bremen and Wismer. Messages are sent to the Teutonic order and the Rhenish cities calling on them for aid, and negotiations are opened with Sweden. Emissaries are also sent to the Dithmarscher Republic with promises of possible aid against any Danish aggression.

[Keenir]

Messages are sent to the Teutonic order and the Rhenish cities calling on them for aid,

The Rhenish cities happily provide men and arms to our Wendish brothers in pursuit of justice in the eyes of God.

[rameiro]

1494: The Mameluke Sultan, az-Zahir Sayf-ad-Din Jaqmaq, ordered the mobilization of all troops in Eastern Egypt and Sinai to confront the advancing Ottoman troops. Upon reaching an agreement concerning Prince Selim's claim to the Ottoman throne, the Mameluke troops of Eastern Egypt and Sinai were deployed to assist Prince Selim in his quest.

1494: The Christian King of Nubia accepts the protection of the Muslim Mameluke Sultanate.

1494: The Powhatan begin to strengthen ties with surrounding tribes in hopes of building a larger confederacy of natives in the region.

[john]

The Rhenish cities happily provide men and arms to our Wendish brothers in pursuit of justice in the eyes of God.

The Knights of the Teutonic Order stand ready to aid their northern brethren.

[RCTFI]

1493 - 1494 As part of his effort to strengthen the Imperial Army, Emperor Maximilian I delibrately attempts to recruit Swiss mercenaries to strengthen his armies. He creates an organizational system whereby small units of veteran troops are distributed throughout the standing armies, to strengthen the largely green units.
As part of his attempt to gain access to large numbers of Swiss troops, he offers the Swiss Confederacy a large degree of autonomy within the Empire, such a large degree of autonomy as for their Confederacy to be almost an independent nation. The only requirement they will still be bound by is a tax, a tax to be paid with the lending of veteran troops. That, and a defensive alliance with the Empire if the French or Italians invade Imperial territory in the south.

[AJNolte]

As per their agreement on the Emperor's acceptance of the Wendish charter, the Wendish Federation pays 1 percent of it's first year's trade to the Emperor in tax.

[Tom Veil]

November 1497 -- The Mohawk approach the Mohican about broadening the Mohawk Trail (http://www.mohawk-trading-post.com/history.html) so that the Mohicans and Wampanoag can trade more easily with the Haudenosaunee (and, in the lands beyond, the Erie).

[Tom Veil]

A lot going on here! I cover Bangladesh, Uzbekistan, and everwhere in between; I kill off one of the greatest leaders in the area; and I rework the founding of one of the greatest religions of all time. So comments, please!


January 1497: Barbak Shah Lodhi makes his quest for glory by launching a mission to re-conquer the ancient Lodhi homeland in Afghanistan. His army is massive – surely not the “Seven Lakh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakh)Army” that history will record, but at least 150,000 men and 1200 elephants.
January 9, 1497: Barbak gets off to a strong start by steamrolling the unsuspecting, tiny principality of Thanesar.
February 7-20, 1497: The Battle of Lahore sets the tone for Barbak’s War – bloody. At least 20,000 die, and Barbak celebrates his “victory” by burning Lahore. This inhuman tactic works: minor tribes from all around the Panjab pledge their entire armies to Barbak, fearing that any lesser show of loyalty will lead to their own destruction.
March-April 1497: The First Battle of Kabul. Barbak meets his first real resistance here, and the battle ends in a stalemate. 25,000 die, and Kabul earns its nickname, “Khunsna City”, or The Spiteful City.
May 4, 1497: Aladdin Husain, Sultan of Bengal, marches across the undefended eastern Lodhi border.
May 12, 1497: The tribes of the Fergana Valley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergana_Valley) decide to join the war as “Avengers” against the Lodhis. The twelve-year-old Zāhir ud-Dīn Mohammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babur) persuades his father Umar Shaykh Mirza to let him come along. When Rana Raimal gets word of the call for “Avenge”, he hurriedly whips up fervor among his Muslim neighbors, hoping to start an all-out war on the Delhi Sultanate.
May 19, 1497: Barbak circles back and conquers Multan, hoping to march back toward the new Bengal threat. His army soars to its apex, an unwieldy 250,000 men – but his enemies are growing, too.
June 1, 1497: Gondwana and Berar, fearing that Bengal will emerge as the new dominant power, send troops to defend the eastern Lodhi border. Local nobles take up arms as well, and some of the fighting moves into the cities – a rarity in Indian warfare. Aladdin Husain fumes that he will kill every nobleman who had sworn allegiance to the Lodhis.
June 1497: Rana Raimal calls his sons and cousins back from their semi-exiles. The Rana rewards them by giving them ministerial control over various domestic affairs – but in following with his advisor Ajja’s counsel, none has power independent of the others. He then sets out to win support among the other Rajput principalities for a “Grand Rajputana Army” under his command.
June 9 - July 23, 1497: The Massacre at Mathura. An ordinary battle turns into a total nightmare as several armies switch sides, and finally, the Monsoon and the ensuing disease kills off most of the remaining soldiers. At least 250,000 die, but rumors spread of 700,000 dead, perhaps in reference to the “Seven Lakh Army.” Among the dead are the Sultan of Berar Fath-Allah, the Sultan of Gujarat, and Sultan of Bengal Aladdin Husain. The Bengali and Berar armies are broken from death and desertions, but the Delhi Sultanate fares even worse. Barbak Shah Lodhi is forced to flee to the north.
July 23, 1497 – January 23, 1498: Guru Nanak Dev, saddened by the suffering at Mathura, spends 6 months meditating on the battlefield, almost motionless even as clergy and workers bury bodies all around him and turn the battlefield into a graveyard.
July 25, 1497 –Rana Raimal’s Grand Rajputana Army, which had been quietly watching from a nearby town while the Massacre at Mathura unfolded, finally declare war on the Delhi Sultanate and capture Mathura. The contrast of the repugnant fields of death and decay with the joy of the Mathura people, whose food and water supplies had been running low, will become the subject of art and literature for countless generations.
August 5-8, 1497: The Second Battle of Kabul spells the end of the Lodhi Dynasty, as Barbak and his remaining allies are either killed or captured. Zāhir ud-Dīn Mohammad is among the dead Avengers.
August 11, 1497: Rana Raimal and marches on Delhi, collecting Rajput vassals along the way. Sultan Sikandar is helpless to defend himself, and Delhi is a Hindi city for the first time in 300 years. In a gesture that no educated Indian could mistake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prithviraj_III#Muhammad_Ghori), his son Prithviraj actually leads the troops back into Delhi.
September 1497: Rana Raimal invites all of his sons’ religious teachers to Delhi, and has them jointly coronate him as the Rajamaharana Raimal I of Rajputana and Bhārata. His son Prithviraj is named Raj Prithviraj IV of Delhi.
September 1497: Acting quickly before they can rebuild their troops, Sangramsingh leads a small contingent to conquer the chaotic Bengali Sultanate, while Rawat Sarangdeo leads another contingent of troops into Berar. Otherwise, the armies are sent home to recuperate.
January 1498: Rajamaharana Raimal I launches two major policy initiatives. One is to follow all of the recommendation of Sultan Sikandar’s survey. The other is a tax on all Muslims, akin to the tax that the Sultanate once placed on all non-Muslims.
1498: Heartbroken by the stunning reversal of fortunes, many first-generation Muslims living under Rajamaharana Raimal I move back home. For those who have lived in India for generations, though, relocation hardly seems a viable prospect. These Muslims find consolation in an unlikely source: Royal Guru Nanak Dev. The Great Guru has developed a new form of Hinduism that recognizes many of the most sacred tenets of Islam. From a Guru who was less wise than Nanak Dev, or who had less Royal favor, this might be considered double heresy. Instead, the practice of “Vāhigurū Sikh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waheguru)” spreads rapidly.

[LightInfa]

1495:
Swedish-Hanseatic negotiations end with a succesful agreement. In return for military and economic aid, the Hanseatic League will gain access to all Swedish ports, and the Hanseatic League will be allowed to open offices in the major ports to facilitate trade and other matters.(OOC: Discussed with AJNolte and these were the terms we agreed to by PM)

[AJNolte]

1495:
Swedish-Hanseatic negotiations end with a succesful agreement. In return for military and economic aid, the Hanseatic League will gain access to all Swedish ports, and the Hanseatic League will be allowed to open offices in the major ports to facilitate trade and other matters.(OOC: Discussed with AJNolte and these were the terms we agreed to by PM)
I concur on behalf of the league, having also discussed the matter with the Rhenish and Teutonic contingents.

[AJNolte]

1495: Frederick of Saxony and Berthold of Mainz begin discussions about needed reforms within the empire. This partnership is to last until Berthold's death, and forms a longer-term 'special relationship' between Mainz and Saxony.
1498: Duke Frederick marries Elizabeth, daughter of Philip the Count Palatine.

[Keenir]

1494: The Mameluke Sultan, az-Zahir Sayf-ad-Din Jaqmaq, ordered the mobilization of all troops in Eastern Egypt and Sinai to confront the advancing Ottoman troops. Upon reaching an agreement concerning Prince Selim's claim to the Ottoman throne, the Mameluke troops of Eastern Egypt and Sinai were deployed to assist Prince Selim in his quest.

(OOC: summer, I take it?)

(IC)
1494: The Ottoman Sultan, Bayezid, Caliph to the Faithful, Shadow of God on Earth, heir of the Prophet, accompanied by Prince Ahmed and every other good son of the Caliph (all the sons but Selim) join the army in readiness for the impending battle. All the Princes know that when their brother Selim is captured, he will be killed for treason.

The Ottoman navy takes anchor outside of cannon range for now, off the coast of the Mamluk encampment...with a splinter of the navy sailing down to the coast of Jerusalem.


(OOC: odd historical fact - the Mamluks tended to win battles against Ottomans, but turned and fled whenever Bayezid was present in the army)

[AJNolte]

"Though many will question my decision to ally with the Turk, I would
remind them that it was once a heathen Prince, Cyrus the Great, who restored Jerusalem to the Israelites, and in such like manner we might benefit from
the actions of another heathen prince. "--Pierre DAubusson, in a letter to the Pope concerning his intent to support Bayizid against his son, and grab Jerusalem along the way.

1494: Rhodean galleys, in conjunction with a large fleet on loan from their Catholic Majesties of Spain (who are eager to buff their already shiny crusader bonefides) launch a surprise attack on Jaffa, and after seizing the city, march directly for Jerusalem, laying siege to the city and calling ofor it's surrender. While the army encamps and part of the navy begins ferrying supplies inland, a large portion of the Rhodean and Spanish galley fleet begin harrying the Egyptian coast, feinting towards Alexandria. DAubusson also calls on the Maronite Christians of Lebanon to aidhis army, as well as the Lebanese Druze.

[General_Paul]

April, 1497: The Hongzhi Emperor dispatches invitations to the leaders of several regional kingdoms, and much larger kingdoms, all over Eastern and Central Asia, to come to the imperial palace to celebrate the birth of his second son, Zhu Houcong, and give tribute to the emperor in return for the emperor graciously opening up the imperial palace in two year's time. These invitations are delivered aboard advance ships of a new series of imperial trading fleets dispatched into the Indian Ocean basin, as well as into South-East Asia, and Indonesia to pick up where Admiral Zheng He left off 60 years prior. None of the Ming trading ships will travel north to the Red Sea, for there is nothing there but sand and blood. However, contact with Portuguese trading posts in East Africa and, perhaps, in India and Indonesia may well occur, but will be unexpected at best.

1498: In the wake of the successful sailing and news of the successes of the imperial trading fleets in making port in several ports in South-East Asia, the Indian sub-continent, and the Middle East, several private business owners at the heads of successful commercial shipping businesses began to dispatch trading fleets of their own, laden with grain, porcelain, silver, gold, and other trading goods to ports along the Indian Ocean. These fleets do not sail unarmed with many vessels within the fleet carrying weaponry to defend themselves from any pirates or hostile power that may threatten the safety and security of the private business ventures.

1499: The Hongzhi Emperor, going against the wishes of his advisors, decides to begin construction of a new fleet of "treasure ships," a fleet larger, better armed, and better manned than any at the disposal of the late Admiral Zheng He. Their purpose was suprisingly simple, yet it was the most dangerous, and unknown trip that any Chinese sailing vessel had attempted before this: They were ordered to sail east to the legendary land which the Buddhist priest Hoei-Shin visited, according to the Book of Liang, in AD499, 1000 years prior, the land which Hoei-Shin named "Fusang." While the Hongzhi Emperor's claim that Fusang was not Japan was a shock to many eunuchs and imperial advisors, they agreed to the expedition.

[BlackMage]

1494:

The newly crowned Karaeng of Gowa, I-Pakere'tau Karaeng Tunijallo'-ri Pasukki' Somba-ri Gowa (henceforth referred to as I'Pakere'tau I) is informed by his Shahbandar (Foreign Affairs Minister) of the decline in trepang stocks across Indonesia. The young king is advised by the Bate Salapang (the supreme council of nobles, akin to a Parliament) to send ships to discover new trepang stocks.

Meanwhile, however, war clouds are brewing between Garassik, another small port kingdom in South Sulawesi, and an alliance of Gowa and Tallok. The current Tuma'bicara-butta ('spokesman of the land', prime minister) maanges to advise I'Pakere'tau to avoid war, but his rivals in the court, particularly in the Bate Salapang, resent his autocratic ways and his control over the king.

1495:

The first voyages of exploration, sponsored by the king, set out. The first three disappear without trace. The fourth, however, encounters a large, tropical land to the south. First contact between the Macassans and Yolgnu occurs-the Yolgnu spear the ship's captain, and drive their crew back into the sea. It is not an auspicious start. The ship's remaining crew return to Makassar with news of fantastic riches and abundant stocks of trepang. The new land is dubbed 'Marege' by the king.

The Tuma'bicara-butta dies of malaria. The warhawk Tuma'ilalang Toa, president of the Bate Salapang, is appointed as the new prime minister by the king, who is still young and inexperienced. The new Tuma'bicara-butta's reign will be marked by an increase in the powers of the Bate Salapang, but of growing conflict between the monarchial and noble factions in the council.

War breaks out between Garassik and the Gowa-Tallok alliance.

1496:

At the start of the next trepang season, the first Macassan praus begin to arrive, cautiously, in Marege. Those which land in Yolgnu territory are attacked. Some other tribes, however, react in a friendly fashion. The first stocks of trepang are harvested and returned to Makassar, from where they are traded on to China. However, the land to the south does not yet gain much interest; there are still trepang stocks in Gowan waters, albeit diminishing rapidly, and Marege is too far away and too hostile to yet risk a business venture.

The Garassik-Gowa war ends, with the burning of Garassik. The humiliated royals of Garassik return to their ruined city, and agree to accept vassal status to Gowa. The successful war solidifies the alliance between Gowa and Tallok, and grants the Bate Salapang much-needed influence over the king.

The Yolgnu and Malaccan installments are upcoming...

[The Sandman]

Well, here we go... Yemen first, I think.

1493: The Tahirid Sultan, having examined the shape of the world around him, with the Mamelukes to the north and the Europeans beginning to move forcefully into the traditionally Arab trade routes of the Indian Ocean, decided to embark upon a series of policy initiatives in order to buttress Yemeni economic and military strength against potential outside threats.

The main portions of this initiative were threefold. First, a proclamation was made of the willingness of Yemen to accept the expelled Jews and Muslims of the Iberian Peninsula, along with other such unwanted (and productive) minority religions that other states might wish to dispose of. This proclamation was disseminated throughout the Indian Ocean by Arab traders, reaching throughout the known world by spring of 1494.

Second, the Yemeni Sultan, after consultation with learned scholars as to the legality of such a move, proclaimed himself the Defender of the Hajj, in so far as that the Tahirid Sultanate would escort shipbound hajjis from Socotra to Jiddah, protecting them from pirates (and other potential marauders) along the way. Furthermore, it was announced that any attempt by merchants to take advantage of the hajj with exorbitant price increases would not be tolerated by the Sultanate.

Third, in order to fulfill the above duty, and incidentally to safeguard the Indian Ocean trade network that was Yemen's lifeblood, a major increase in naval construction was to occur. Realizing that Yemen itself did not possess an abundance of forests from which to harvest wood for shipbuilding, the decision was made to look southwards, towards the heavily forested island of Madagascar. With longstanding trade contacts already present there, particularly with the Sakalava tribe along the island's western coast, the Sultanate would use Madagascar as its primary source of raw material for new naval construction.

Contacts would also be strengthened with the Swahili city-states along the East African coast, as certain other materials (hemp, for example) would be needed for the naval expansion. Over the next two years, a series of marriages would be arranged between the Yemeni throne and the ruling families of those city-states. In particular, a series of emissaries were sent to Sofala, offering the local ruler Tahirid protection in the event that ill-intentioned European visitors came to call. While the Sofalan emir declined the full Yemeni offer, he did agree to allow a small Yemeni garrison to remain in the area in order to safeguard the expanded degree of trade visiting the port.

[BlackMage]

1497:

The Yolgnu convene a meeting, or corroborree, to discuss the issue of 'the invaders'. In their first contact, the Macassans attempted to kidnap three Yolgnu women, sparking a skirmish. The various headmen of the Yolgnu bands agree to a policy of 'total resistance'. They will attempt to drive off the Macassans with a policy of military force.

However, this year sees a massive rise in the number of Macassan ships arriving off the coast of Marege. The Gunbalang nation, willing to cooperate with the newcomers, sign a treaty with Macassan fishermen: in exchange for technology, they will provide labour for the Macassans and allow the construction of temporary camps on their land. Some other Aboriginal tribes follow suit; most others, however, remain cautiously indifferent.

Three praus (Macassan fishing ships) attempt to fish in Yolgnu waters. They are attacked by Yolgnu fishermen. Over two dozen Macassans are killed, and their boats are commandeered. The remaining crew agree to aid the Yolgnu in exchange for their lives.

An exploring prau sails down the coast of OTL's Kimberleys. It discovers copious oyster beds, including valuable pearls. It creates a sensation when it returns to Makassar. The crew are unsure if the land they have discovered is part of Marege; instead, they name it 'Kai Djawa'.

However, far more serious is the continuing problem of the Yolgnu. The Bate Salapang urge war, and the annexation of Marege; the pro-peace court faction, however, still retain enough sway to prevent war.

1498:

The fifth year since the discovery of Marege sees the largest fleet of praus exploring Marege's waters yet. Amongst these is a pearling fleet, which explores the coast of Kai Djawa, setting up temporary pearling camps along the coast. The local Aboriginal people are cautious, but avoid conflict.

In Marege, more Aboriginal tribes sign treaties with the Macassan invaders, allowing for the construction of trepanging camps on their land for up to six months at a time. The people of Marege not only provide labour for the Macassans but also supply tortoise-shell, pearls and pearl-shell. Tribute payments are made as well to local Aboriginal groups for the right to fish in their waters. In exchange, the people of Marege obtain dugout canoes with sails and stone anchors, bronze fish hooks, harpoons with detachable heads, iron, iron knives and axes, glass, pipes, tobacco, cloth in the form of calico and wool, belts, beads, string, alcohol and some foods. In some cases, local leaders are taken back to Makassar, where they are paraded before the karaeng.

The Yolgnu begin to form an anti-Macassan alliance. Their stolen ships prove useful as a bargaining tool, as technology can be used as a means for securing allies. They begin to engage in acts of piracy off the coast of Marege, attacking Macassan sailors, taking their ships, and killing their crews.

By the beginning of 1499, the Top End is dominated by two powers in rivalry: the Macassans, with their assortment of local allies, and the Yolgnu, with their anti-Gowan treaties. The stage is set for war.

[serebryakov]

1493: Moldavia, Wallachia, and Austria form the Anti-Ottoman League to drive the Muslims out of Europe. (Don't worry, I alrady spoke with Austria on this.)
1493 John Albert, newly elected King of Poland, is not pleased by this turn. Not only he thinks he should be at least informed of this by his Moldavian vassals - he dreams of his own victories against unholy Turk... yet is hamstrung in his ambition by the need to pacify unruly Polish nobility and wheedle money for his military enterprises from the Seim. So he swallows his pride (or, at least, most prickly parts of it), and by the next year at Leutschau Polish king met not only with his brother Wladislaw of Hungary, Elector John Hohenzollern of Brandenburg and Moldavian gospodar Stephen [as OTL], but also - with great reluctance - with representatives of archduke Maximilian, whom he would rather see as an open enemy. Hopes that any kind of united Christian front against Ottomans would be established were small...

[joemac]

1495 camel traders from the kel ahaggar tribe and respectivly kel aijer tribes found gold among their camel trade routes near to where they both are based in the sahara
1497 a small war of supremacy happened between the 2 tribes
1499 the tribes decided that war was pointless and instead very closely allied to take advantage of the gold reserves a very small take 0.5% was put on the gold

[Tom Veil]

1495:

The first voyages of exploration, sponsored by the king, set out. The first three disappear without trace. The fourth, however, encounters a large, tropical land to the south. First contact between the Macassans and Yolgnu occurs-the Yolgnu spear the ship's captain, and drive their crew back into the sea. It is not an auspicious start. The ship's remaining crew return to Makassar with news of fantastic riches and abundant stocks of trepang. The new land is dubbed 'Marege' by the king.

Marege is Australia, correct? This all looks very good so far. I'll just point out that the further south they go, the worse that Indonesian agriculture will fare, especially in the arid inland.

[Glen]

1494: John Cabot, after failed attempts to interest the Portuguese and Spanish in his services, moves his family to England in hopes of being engaged as an explorer.

1495: Backed by Bristol Merchants, John Cabot obtains an audience with King Henry VIIth of England. King Henry VIIth is impressed with Cabot's plans and grants him letters of patent authorizing his mission in the name of the English Crown.

1495: One of the first drydocks in Medieval Europe is built in Portsmouth. Historians will argue for centuries to come whether this or the drydock in Naples was the first completed.

1496 April 20: John Cabot departs from England heading West in search of 'Asia'.

1496 June 12: Cabot and his crew find land, which at the time they believe to be Northern Asia. John Cabot claims the land in the name of Henry VIIth. An abundance of fish in the area is noted.

1496 July 25: John Cabot returns to England after a successful journey to "Nor'Asia."

1496 August 1: John Cabot tells King Henry VII of his trip to "Nor'Asia." He proposes to the King that China must lie to the South along the coast. Henry VIIth gives support to an expanded second journey.

1497 January: John Cabot's map of his first voyage is printed in Bristol, showing the northern coastline as 'Norasia'. Scholars to this day debate whether the spelling was intential or a printing error.

1497 April 30: Cabot and a small fleet head out for his second journey to the west.

1497 June 21: John Cabot and his fleet find a promising waterway near their original landfall, and split a small group off to explore it while the main fleet follow the coast south.

1497 July 10: Cabot makes contact with the Lenape near the head of a large river he names the Meryk river, after one of his major sponsors. Cabot trades for samples of beaver pelt.

1497 August 30: Cabot's re-united fleet returns to England with word of the large waterway, which many begin to refer to as the Cabot, and the beaver pelts, which are viewed with great interest by Henry VIIth and Cabot's Bristol backers.

1498: English fishing fleets begin travelling to the fishing grounds discovered by Cabot.

1498 May 10: Cabot's third journey gets a late start compared to his previous journeys.

1498 June: John Cabot negotiates with the Lenape to set up a trading post on the island he visited his last trip there. It is named Fort Henry, in honor of the King. Meanwhile, his ships explore up the waterway at the head of the island, encountering another tribe willing to trade, the Mohegans.

1498 September 10: Cabot and his ships finally reach England after a rough journey home in which two ships were lost to storms.

1499 February: A revised version of Cabot's map showing more extensive cartography is printed, though the name 'Norasia' remains.

More to come....

[The Sicilian]

1495: One of the first drydocks in Medieval Europe is built in Portsmouth. Historians will argue for centuries to come whether this or the drydock in Milan was the first completed.


Two things:
Milan is landlocked
The historical record clearly shows that the Neapolitans beat the English by several months:p:rolleyes:

[Glen]

Two things:
Milan is landlocked
The historical record clearly shows that the Neapolitans beat the English by several months:p:rolleyes:

Sorry, had a brainfart there, will adjust.

I guess the naval historians will just have to argue over it through the ages...

[Haggis]

1497 or so- The Alibamu chief Hassi Locha (Black Grass) convenes a meeting with the Kosaatiha and hammers out what could be described as a defense pact/military alliance. The Albaamaaha and Kosaatiha call up quite a few younger men and launch what comes to be called the Pasaaya (A Loud Noise) on the nearby towns and territories that are not allied to them, often these are just simple enough raids.

[Tom Veil]

November 1497 -- The Mohawk approach the Mohican about broadening the Mohawk Trail (http://www.mohawk-trading-post.com/history.html) so that the Mohicans and Wampanoag can trade more easily with the Haudenosaunee (and, in the lands beyond, the Erie).

Bump for Glen -- do the Mohicans accept? We can chat in the Discussion thread or over PM if you want to do something more complex.

[Glen]

Bump for Glen -- do the Mohicans accept? We can chat in the Discussion thread or over PM if you want to do something more complex.

Sorry, Tom. Juggling too many things. The Mohicans would allow it so long as there were guarantees about Mohican territorial integrity.

[Glen]

1497 or so- The Alibamu chief Hassi Locha (Black Grass) convenes a meeting with the Kosaatiha and hammers out what could be described as a defense pact/military alliance. The Albaamaaha and Kosaatiha call up quite a few younger men and launch what comes to be called the Pasaaya (A Loud Noise) on the nearby towns and territories that are not allied to them, often these are just simple enough raids.

Same question as for many others...who is Hassi Locha, historical figure or made up?

[AJNolte]

1498: Johann of Baden succumbs to an illness and dies several years early.
(OOC) Who exactly chose archbishops at this point in history? Would the Pope do it directly? Also, when sovereign archbishoprics become vacant in the early years before butterflies, how can a plausible successor be chosen? Do we just leave them nameless?

[VulcanTrekkie45]

1498: During an extended fishing trip, a Manisses party discovers land approximately 12 miles east-southeast of their island, and see it is inhabited by a strange tribe they have never met. (Nod off to Glen)

[VulcanTrekkie45]

A dual monarchy? What is meant by this? This move in 1496 seems without clear support. Can you give a rationale for how this came about, and explain more what is meant?

Can't edit the original post, so I'm rewriting it.

1496: Due to ongoing tensions and the weakening forces of the two nations, Vlad the Monk of Wallachia and Stephen of Moldavia call a conference between the two kingdoms. What results is a mutual defense pact, and the blockade of the Ottoman border.

[AJNolte]

Can't edit the original post, so I'm rewriting it.

1496: Due to ongoing tensions and the weakening forces of the two nations, Vlad the Monk of Wallachia and Stephen of Moldavia call a conference between the two kingdoms. What results is a mutual defense pact, and the blockade of the Ottoman border. This arrangement brings the two nations closer together, and they have formed a dual monarchy by 1500, shifting the balance of power closer to them.

I'm assuming this is kind of like the triumverate, without the third member of course, or the Federation of Kaisers in DoD?

[Glen]

1498: Johann of Baden succumbs to an illness and dies several years early.
(OOC) Who exactly chose archbishops at this point in history? Would the Pope do it directly? Also, when sovereign archbishoprics become vacant in the early years before butterflies, how can a plausible successor be chosen? Do we just leave them nameless?

Good question. Anyone know how these got chosen in the late 15th/early 16th century?

[VulcanTrekkie45]

I'm assuming this is kind of like the triumverate, without the third member of course, or the Federation of Kaisers in DoD?

I suppose, if only I knew what DoD was... yes, I'm still a newbie...:(

[Glen]

Can't edit the original post, so I'm rewriting it.

1496: Due to ongoing tensions and the weakening forces of the two nations, Vlad the Monk of Wallachia and Stephen of Moldavia call a conference between the two kingdoms. What results is a mutual defense pact,

This part above is good.

and the blockade of the Ottoman border.

So, throwing off even a token homage to the Ottomans?

This arrangement brings the two nations closer together, and they have formed a dual monarchy by 1500, shifting the balance of power closer to them.

Closer, sure. Jigger with the lines, make some dynastic marriages, etc, great! But a 'dual monarchy'? Who's the monarch? Why is one of them giving up their throne to the other? Or do you mean, 'One nation with two monarchs'? That idea would be a bit bizarre without it being something like Ferdinand and Isabella. I'm just not getting this part.

[VulcanTrekkie45]

This part above is good.



So, throwing off even a token homage to the Ottomans?



Closer, sure. Jigger with the lines, make some dynastic marriages, etc, great! But a 'dual monarchy'? Who's the monarch? Why is one of them giving up their throne to the other? Or do you mean, 'One nation with two monarchs'? That idea would be a bit bizarre without it being something like Ferdinand and Isabella. I'm just not getting this part.


I meant one nation with two monarchs. I'm not sure if 'dual monarchy' is the correct term, but that's what I meant.

[Glen]

I meant one nation with two monarchs. I'm not sure if 'dual monarchy' is the correct term, but that's what I meant.

My problem is, I don't see a reason why such a radical move would be taken only 7 years after the POD without some other changes.

[VulcanTrekkie45]

My problem is, I don't see a reason why such a radical move would be taken only 7 years after the POD without some other changes.

Actually, you're right. Stricken.

[Keenir]

and the blockade of the Ottoman border. So, throwing off even a token homage to the Ottomans?


it'll work, so long as neither the blockaders nor the Kalenderi blink....or at least until Bayezid returns from kicking Mamluk arse. ;)

[Haggis]

Same question as for many others...who is Hassi Locha, historical figure or made up?
The earliest Alibamu chieftains I've even seen the names of are from about 1780 or so. So aye, he's made up.

[Glen]

The earliest Alibamu chieftains I've even seen the names of are from about 1780 or so. So aye, he's made up.

I'm asking that where we don't have a historical personage, that people either not name who is doing it or delay their events a couple decades to give time for anonymous butterflies to throw up new leaders in these lands.

Call it historically plausible deniability....

[BlackMage]

Marege is Australia, correct? This all looks very good so far. I'll just point out that the further south they go, the worse that Indonesian agriculture will fare, especially in the arid inland.

Yep, Marege is Australia. And I'm definitely going to keep that in mind; any colonisation, rather than merely incorporation, will keep strictly to the northern coastal fringe.

1499:

The fourth year of trepang fishing in Marege brings closer links between many Aboriginal tribes and the Macassans. Some tribes have become nearly sedentary, using Macassan fishing technology to feed villages. Needless to say, these tribes form close links with the Macassans, to the extent of economic dependence upon Macassan trade. In particular, western Marege is dominated by Macassan 'treaty tribes', bands linked by economic exchanges with Makassar.

However, the Yolgnu continue to dominate eastern Marege. As the largest tribe in pure numbers, and the only united nation (the rest of the tribes are divided up into 'bands', who function independently), they are able to function as an effective fighting force against the Macassans, and to intimidate other bands into joining their cause. They begin to openly attack Macassans in the territory of other nations, and attack praus all along the coast. In retaliation, pro-Macassan tribes carry out attacks on the Yolgnu.

The exploitation of pearls continues in Kai Djawa, where some pearling stations have come to operate as semi-permanent settlements. The scarce food and water in the region leaves the tribes there open to advanced Macassan technology for fishing, leading to very good relations.

Finally, by mid-year the Yolgnu threat becomes intolerable. The karaeng decides, for the protection of Macassan fishermen, to declare war on the Yolgnu. The First Yolgnu War begins.

Gowan soldiers are dispatched south on warships. The small Yolgnu fleet is destroyed quickly by far superior firepower. The Gowan army land in the territory of the pro-Macassan Gunbalang, and advance east. Pro-Yolgnu tribes are massacred.

However, the Gowans quickly become stalemated in a guerrilla war against the Yolgnu. As there are no permanent settlements to occupy, the Yolgnu can rapidly vanish into the bush; dozens of soldiers are killed in raids. In retaliation, any person believed to be of Yolgnu culture is killed on sight.

A permanent military base, Tunijallo, is set up in occupied Yolgnu territory. It becomes the first permanent Gowan settlement in Marege. The karaeng declares the annexation of all Yolgnu and anti-Macassan tribal territory.

1500:

The war continues to go badly for both sides; the Yolgnu cannot score a decisive victory to drive away the Gowans, yet the difficulties of sustained guerrilla warfare cost the kingdom heavily.

In desperation, the Gowans turn to the use of proxies. Pro-Macassan tribes are used for the bulk of the fighting, and commit some of the war's most notable atrocities, including the massacre of Yolgnu women and children.

Djerrkura, a Yolgnu resistance fighter, becomes unofficial leader of the Yolgnu through his efforts as a general and a warlord. The demands of the war make his rule increasingly authoritarian.

In Kai Djawa, the first permanent Yolgnu trading station, for pearls and trepang, is established. Similar settlements are set up in Marege.

Macassan economic influence begins to spread inland through the use of proxies. The first treaty with an inland tribe is concluded, by which they will supply labour for technology and food.

Smallpox is introduced into Marege, for the first time. The effects are, predictably, catastrophic.

1501:

The war enters its third year, with no signs of abating. In desperation, the Shahbandur (Gowan foreign minister) decides to enter into negotiations with the Yolgnu. The Yolgnu, heavily weakened by smallpox, agree.

In the First Makaratta (treaty), Djerrkura is recognised as bate (prince) of the Yolgnu, independent of Makassar but in a pact of permanent friendship. His allies are not so fortunate, with Gowa annexing the territory of any tribe to ally with the Yolgnu.

The ravages of smallpox force the tribes of Marege to gravitate towards the Gowan settlements along the coast, where they are given food for labour. They remain nominally independent, but the collapse of Yolgnu's alliances effectively grants the Gowans regional hegemony. Similar processes take place in Kai Djawa.

Meanwhile, Gowan praus continue to explore Marege, reaching the eastern side of OTL's Gulf of Carpentaria. Several trading stations are established, but many tribes, newly contacted, react badly to the intruders.

In Yolgnu, the population begin to gravitate to fishing settlements along the coast, established by Djerrkura.

[Tom Veil]

Sorry, Tom. Juggling too many things. The Mohicans would allow it so long as there were guarantees about Mohican territorial integrity.

If the Mohicans do the work, then the Iroquois will gladly let them keep the land. :D

[john]

1493 - King Girindrawarddhana is informed by his ministers that the price of trepang has more than tripled recently due to local stocks dying off. The King decides that trepang is too important to the economy, and sends ships to scout out and secure new island sources.

1494 - The King's ships return, only to report the same thing; the trepang is in serious decline all over the archipelago. Reports from the north indicate that the Macassans are equally troubled, and that their king has is considering sending ships further afield. King Girindrawarddhana decides to do the same.

1495 - A small group of Macassan ships is intercepted near Bali. The crews are brought before the King, and explain they were sent from their Karaeng to seek out new trepang stocks. They had skirted a large island to the south, whose waters were abundant with trepang, but were chased away by hostile natives. They were on their way home to report when they were intercepted.

The King decides this new land is worth exploring, and decides to send his own ships south with the captured crewmen as guides. Several ships are built, and the expedition leaves Majahapit in early 1496.

1496 - The fleet heads south, and eventually reaches a large island. The waters are indeed rich with trepang. Going ashore, the sailors discover signs of recent activity. In fact, it seems as if the place was recently abandoned. The Macassan crewmen identify the remnants as being from Gowa. The crew explores along the coast, and meet up with some locals, who speak words in macassan. They want to trade, which the crew gladly does. The crewmen also learn of the Yolgnu, and their fight against the newcomers. The ships are restocked, and head back to Majahapit to report.

The king is delighted by the tortoise shells, pearls and especially the trepang brought back. When he learns that the Macassans have been active in this new land, he can't sit idly by; A new bigger, stronger fleet begins construction. The King sees a possible friend and ally in the Yolgnu, and plans are made to seek them out....

[rameiro]

1495 - The Mamelukes begin their westward expansion towards the Barbary Coast. The Sultan orders the amassing of all able-bodied troops to the western borderlands. He deploys all southern troops to monitor civil unrest in the Protectorate of Nubia-Alodia.

1496 - The Alodian Nubians begin an open revolt against their Mameluke oppressors. The Christian King of Nubia approaches Rhodes for assistance.

[john]

April 1, 1493 - Piero de' Medici dies in a drunken fall down the stairs of his palace. Some believe he did not fall but instead was pushed, but there is no proof. His brother, Cardinal Giovanni de' Medici, is now the head of the family.
The Cardinal immediately sets to work expanding his families' interests. He first turns his eyes to the small independent Republic of Lucca...

Meanwhile, Savonarola, a fiery orator who had often blasted the Medicis in his sermons for their wickedness and impiety from his pulpit at San Marco, gained a large following after the death of Piero, who was often a target for his extravagence. Savonarola's preaching of the end of days and of the judgement of God upon all men scared the normally free wheeling Florentines into contrition. He also made attacks on the immorality of the Church, which many saw as veiled attacks on the Cardinal de' Medici. There was also the prospect of invasion from France on the horizon, which just served to increase the tension

In 1494 events would soon come to a head...

[joemac]

1494 a charismatic and rather uncharicteritic leader takes over the arrente conquering nearby aborigone tribes
1497 the leader dies and a new one takes over this time urging consolation with the other tribes as they are part one big family efectively - of the arrente federation

[AJNolte]

1495 - The Mamelukes begin their westward expansion towards the Barbary Coast. The Sultan orders the amassing of all able-bodied troops to the western borderlands. He deploys all southern troops to monitor civil unrest in the Protectorate of Nubia-Alodia.

1496 - The Alodian Nubians begin an open revolt against their Mameluke oppressors. The Christian King of Nubia approaches Rhodes for assistance.

P1495: Jerusalem falls, and DAubusson enters it in triumph (I'm extrapolating this development from the extra troubles of expansion and rebellion). DAubusson leaves a substantial Spanish/Rhodean garrison in Jerusalem, bolstered by Maronite warlords from the Lebanon who have come to aid their Catholic bretherin.

Next, DAubusson turns his eyes to Alodi, asking for aid from his Spanish, Neopolitan and Milanese allies to "free this Christian kingdom from the savage and heathen Mamluks." A large naval squadron begins sailing for Alexandria, preparing to capture this city then send forces down the Nile, thereby cutting the Mamluks in half, trapping Selim's forces between the Christians and Ottomans and freeing Alodi. DAubusson also sends a letter to the Nagas of Ethiopia asking him to come to the aid of his Christian brothers in Alodi.

[Keenir]

P1495: Jerusalem falls,

DAubusson also sends a letter to the Nagas of Ethiopia asking him to come to the aid of his Christian brothers in Alodi.


Spring 1496: Half of the janissaries who were in the Ottoman army fighting the Mamluks, joined with Selim (their favorite to inherit the Ottoman throne). The other half of the janissaries, fearing loss of privledge and status - not to mention the very existance of their Order - met them in open and pitched battle on the plains north of Jerusalem. The Bayezid-loyal ones won the day. The disloyal ones fled to Egypt and Persia, while the loyal ones were given residences in Rumeli.

Poets in the ensuing weeks and months, would call this the Janissary Civil War.

Summer 1496: Selim is captured by soldiers loyal to his brothers Ahmed and Korkud. Invited to dine with his brothers, Selim is poisoned during the dinner.


Fall 1498: Having been injured in battle against the Mamluks, Bayezid finds his wounds are still a pain to him. First making certain that Prince Ahmed is in Constantinople, Bayezid embarks on the hajj, dining with regional nobles and notables on the road to Mecca.

Bayezid dies as he is making his return from completing the hajj. Ahmed, closest to Constantinople, grabs the throne; most of his brothers are already dead from battle and disease, but Ahmed orders the death of every surviving brother, save for Korkud, whose loyalty Ahmed considers to be beyond question.

To mark the coronation, a sailor brings to Constantinople something he has found and wrapped with the greatest of care: the hand of John the Baptist, found abandoned in a cave.

[The Sicilian]

1496: Naples reasterts her claim to the defunct Kingdom of Jerusalem. They send troops to Jerusalem to back up the Crusaders.

1497: Milan answers the call to arms as well, though they send mostley money rather than soldiers.

1498: A large sum of gold from Naples is offered to Spain, in return for the island of Sicily.

[Aussey]

1496: The Ndongo-Matamba alliance is sealed with the only daughter of the Matamban king (and thus heir) to the eldest son of the Ndongolese king. Expansion into Ngoyo continues.

1497: Though figthing a loosing battle, the Ngoyolese offer to ally themselves with the Kakongolese. The Kakongolese, under a vassal to the King of Kongo (also overlord of Ndongo,) refuse.

1498: The Matamban and Ndongolese kings begin to plan to offer to ally the soon-to-be-united land of Ndongo-Matamba with Kongo and a Ndongolese princess, in return for releasing Ndongo from vassalage.

[OOC: There was an unnamed queen-regnant of Matamba in the early-16th century]

[AJNolte]

1496: Naples reasterts her claim to the defunct Kingdom of Jerusalem. They send troops to Jerusalem to back up the Crusaders.

1497: Milan answers the call to arms as well, though they send mostley money rather than soldiers.

1498: A large sum of gold from Naples is offered to Spain, in return for the island of Sicily.


Welcoming the support from their Neopolitan allies, the Rhodeans and Spanish carry out their planned assault on Alexandria, and sweep up the Nile--devastating Mamluk Egypt as they go, on the way to aid Alodi.
(OOC) Romero: please PM me about the battles in Egypt.

[AJNolte]

Out of their deep appreciation for the aid of the Neopolitans in the Crusades and in token of the fraternal love which they bear toward Alphonso, King of Napples, their Catholic Majesties agree to the sail of Sicily. THhe gold will be invested in a series of expanded voyages to the new world, to be led by CChristopher Columbus.

[The Sicilian]

In the spirit of cooperation...

1499: Alphonso agrees to open ports and enter a exclusive trade agreement with the Hanseatic league.

[BlackMage]

The king is delighted by the tortoise shells, pearls and especially the trepang brought back. When he learns that the Macassans have been active in this new land, he can't sit idly by; A new bigger, stronger fleet begins construction. The King sees a possible friend and ally in the Yolgnu, and plans are made to seek them out....

Ooh, very interesting development...

How shall we do our 'diplomatic discourse'? Unfortunately, my events are about 5 years ahead of yours, but we can retcon the First Yolgnu War so that we have Majahapit assistance...

Oh yes, and in my previous installment, when I said 'Yolgnu trading posts' were established in Kai Djawa (OTL's Western Australia), I meant, of course, that Gowan trading ports were established.

[Tom Veil]

March-April 1497: The First Battle of Kabul. Barbak meets his first real resistance here, and the battle ends in a stalemate. 25,000 die, and Kabul earns its nickname, “Khunsna City”, or The Spiteful City.
May 12, 1497: The tribes of the Fergana Valley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergana_Valley) decide to join the war as “Avengers” against the Lodhis. The twelve-year-old Zāhir ud-Dīn Mohammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babur) persuades his father Umar Shaykh Mirza to let him come along. When Rana Raimal gets word of the call for “Avenge”, he hurriedly whips up fervor among his Muslim neighbors, hoping to start an all-out war on the Delhi Sultanate.
August 5-8, 1497: The Second Battle of Kabul spells the end of the Lodhi Dynasty, as Barbak and his remaining allies are either killed or captured. Zāhir ud-Dīn Mohammad is among the dead Avengers.

I was sloppy and totally missed that Keenir and General Paul both have claims to the Fergana Valley and to Zāhir ud-Dīn Mohammad, AKA Babur. These events are withdrawn to the extent that they presume actions by Keenir and GP's nations.
Hopefully, we can work out a solution that doesn't change too much, though, as I'd like to keep the general direction of the rest of my India timeline: the Delhi Sultanate collapses in dramatic fashion and Hindu Rajputs fill the power vacuum.

[Glen]

I was sloppy and totally missed that Keenir and General Paul both have claims to the Fergana Valley and to Zāhir ud-Dīn Mohammad, AKA Babur. These events are withdrawn to the extent that they presume actions by Keenir and GP's nations.
Hopefully, we can work out a solution that doesn't change too much, though, as I'd like to keep the general direction of the rest of my India timeline: the Delhi Sultanate collapses in dramatic fashion and Hindu Rajputs fill the power vacuum.

Keenir is the only one with a valid claim to Ferghana and Babur. Ask him.

[Keenir]

1496: As most of Europe's attention is drawn to the Holy Land, three nations seize the opportunity and band together into the North Italy Pact. (Alpine Pact?) Negotiations begin in 1496, and the finishing touches are put on the treaty in Spring of 1498. (though the spring event is mostly a get-together of the three dukes to sign three identical copies of the finalized treaty)

[marl_d]

1499-Russia and Livonia go to war as OTL, however Ivan sends out envoys to Lithuania, Poland, and Sweden with the proposal of dividing up the Livonian Confederation between the 3 powers, while Leaving the Port city of Riga semi autonomous to enable trade through out the region but under the influence of Russia.

[LightInfa]

1499:
As per the partition agreement, Swedish troops begin to move into Estonia to bring it under Swedish control. Regent Sten Sture personally leads the troops during the campaign.

[Glen]

1496: As most of Europe's attention is drawn to the Holy Land, three nations seize the opportunity and band together into the North Italy Pact. (Alpine Pact?) Negotiations begin in 1496, and the finishing touches are put on the treaty in Spring of 1498. (though the spring event is mostly a get-together of the three dukes to sign three identical copies of the finalized treaty)

Um, the Duke of Savoy is a child. His regents will sign.

[Glen]

1499-Russia and Livonia go to war as OTL, however Ivan sends out envoys to Lithuania, Poland, and Sweden with the proposal of dividing up the Livonian Confederation between the 3 powers, while Leaving the Port city of Riga semi autonomous to enable trade through out the region but under the influence of Russia.

Why this change in history, besides the participants' desires, that is.

[marl_d]

Why this change in history, besides the participants' desires, that is.

well cuz in OTL Lithuania joined the Livonian's against Russia, here they don't, it's just the start of the war thats the same, they get some land dont lose any to the Russians, the end of the war isn't till next week so the outcome will be different than OTL....a LOT different

serebryakov and i need to work out a couple of the minor points, but it basically that Helena is able to talk her father out of taking Lithuanian Land, so he companstes by going after Livonia

[The Sicilian]

1496: As most of Europe's attention is drawn to the Holy Land, three nations seize the opportunity and band together into the North Italy Pact. (Alpine Pact?) Negotiations begin in 1496, and the finishing touches are put on the treaty in Spring of 1498. (though the spring event is mostly a get-together of the three dukes to sign three identical copies of the finalized treaty)
Duke Gian Galeazzo Sforzza will sign as well.

[Keenir]

Duke Gian Galeazzo Sforzza will sign as well.

yes: the nations are Savoy, Mantua, Milan.

[AJNolte]

Due to the fact that my power pack is broken I will probably not have lap top access for the next few days. The only major international event with which I'm involved are related to either Rhodes or the Hansa, John Keenir can handle the league, and I leave the war in the middle east up to Keenir. sorry for the inconvenience.

[arctic warrior]

1499:
As per the partition agreement, Swedish troops begin to move into Estonia to bring it under Swedish control. Regent Sten Sture personally leads the troops during the campaign.

Please reconsider your actions as of OTL 1497 Sten Sture was relieved of his duties as regent of Sweden.
If this action is the Duke of Finland then you'd please consult with your lord the King Hans of the Kalmar Union before entering Foreign Policies.

[arctic warrior]

To the Hansa:

May I kindly remind you that Sten Sture is only Regent in Sweden in my place and awaiting my coronation - as confirmed by the Swedish Council of the Realm. I'm currently planning to go to Stockholm and have my self crowned, and bringing with me the party (some thousand armed men). (In OTL Sten Sture was forced to resign as Regent in 1497 after being defeated by Kong Hans in a brief campaign).

May I also remind you, that it was not at least Sten Sture who earlier refused Hansa merchants their trade in Sweden, when he briefly had power after my father Christian's bad luck at Brunkenbjerg in 1471. You simply can't trust him.

But with the Union resurrected I can offer you favourable agreements valid in all Scandinavia.

You BTW should come and see my new Royal Navy with which I wil secure traderoutes in the Baltic against piracy and make sure the ships of my trading partners have safe passage.

To Sten Sture:

Well Sten, everything has an end, and now has come yours as Regent of Sweden - I simply want by crown and the Union to function. I'm not entirely dissatisfied with your job, I actually like your trust in common people - we could perhaps develop some concepts here. You would look great as Markduke of Finland - or at the end of a pole!

[LightInfa]

To the Hansa:

May I kindly remind you that Sten Sture is only Regent in Sweden in my place and awaiting my coronation - as confirmed by the Swedish Council of the Realm. I'm currently planning to go to Stockholm and have my self crowned, and bringing with me the party (some thousand armed men). (In OTL Sten Sture was forced to resign as Regent in 1497 after being defeated by Kong Hans in a brief campaign).

May I also remind you, that it was not at least Sten Sture who earlier refused Hansa merchants their trade in Sweden, when he briefly had power after my father Christian's bad luck at Brunkenbjerg in 1471. You simply can't trust him.

But with the Union resurrected I can offer you favourable agreements valid in all Scandinavia.

You BTW should come and see my new Royal Navy with which I wil secure traderoutes in the Baltic against piracy and make sure the ships of my trading partners have safe passage.

To Sten Sture:

Well Sten, everything has an end, and now has come yours as Regent of Sweden - I simply want by crown and the Union to function. I'm not entirely dissatisfied with your job, I actually like your trust in common people - we could perhaps develop some concepts here. You would look great as Markduke of Finland - or at the end of a pole!

To: Denmark
From: Sten Sture, Regent of Sweden

Once again, I remind you that I will not allow a Danish king to be crowned king of Sweden. If you try to take the crown by force of arms, I will be ready for you with many men to send you back into Denmark. Do not make the mistake your father made when he tried to bring Danish rule back onto Sweden.

[Glen]

And might I remind you all, that this is not a game with dialogue, but a collaborative timeline. Is this just a fun, in-character way for you to comment on events, or is it meant to be converted into events? Please let me know.

Please reconsider your actions as of OTL 1497 Sten Sture was relieved of his duties as regent of Sweden.
If this action is the Duke of Finland then you'd please consult with your lord the King Hans of the Kalmar Union before entering Foreign Policies.

To the Hansa:

May I kindly remind you that Sten Sture is only Regent in Sweden in my place and awaiting my coronation - as confirmed by the Swedish Council of the Realm. I'm currently planning to go to Stockholm and have my self crowned, and bringing with me the party (some thousand armed men). (In OTL Sten Sture was forced to resign as Regent in 1497 after being defeated by Kong Hans in a brief campaign).

May I also remind you, that it was not at least Sten Sture who earlier refused Hansa merchants their trade in Sweden, when he briefly had power after my father Christian's bad luck at Brunkenbjerg in 1471. You simply can't trust him.

But with the Union resurrected I can offer you favourable agreements valid in all Scandinavia.

You BTW should come and see my new Royal Navy with which I wil secure traderoutes in the Baltic against piracy and make sure the ships of my trading partners have safe passage.

To Sten Sture:

Well Sten, everything has an end, and now has come yours as Regent of Sweden - I simply want by crown and the Union to function. I'm not entirely dissatisfied with your job, I actually like your trust in common people - we could perhaps develop some concepts here. You would look great as Markduke of Finland - or at the end of a pole!

To: Denmark
From: Sten Sture, Regent of Sweden

Once again, I remind you that I will not allow a Danish king to be crowned king of Sweden. If you try to take the crown by force of arms, I will be ready for you with many men to send you back into Denmark. Do not make the mistake your father made when he tried to bring Danish rule back onto Sweden.

[arctic warrior]

We just had to get the way of this.
Something with more substance will follow.

[Glen]

We just had to get the way of this.
Something with more substance will follow.

Okay.

How about this, folks. From now on, if I don't see a date in front (a year at least) I will assume it is not an actual event for the timeline.

Fair enough?

[rameiro]

1496: The Rhodeans and Alodi dealt the Mamelukes a mighty blow. As a result of being sandwiched between two bloodthirsty, Christian states, the Mameluke army was too widespread to react quickly. Although the campaign in the west was successful in securing the Barbary Coast (northern Libya), all of Upper Egypt was ceded to the Alodi up to the ancient Nubian cities of Aswan and Luxor on the River Nile.

[Smaug]

1493 Word of the arrival of people from the sea, has trickled throughout the Caribbean. They seem to have a lust for Yellow metal, spreading over-all distrust of these foreign wizards.


1494 The Muisca begin to move north and east to add to thier confederation, and to perhaps barter with the foreigners. The Caribs show the Muisca the goods they've traded for, and unknowingly share the Small Pox with the Muisca. As if the epidemic isn't bad enough, rivalries with the Zaque of Hunza, especially for the possession of the salt mines, a precious boon for the Muisca economy.

1495 The head of the Northern Muisca Confederation, marries his oldest daughter to the son of the Chief of the Taino on ?Hispanola?. This might give the Muisca the ability to trade throughout the Caribbean. The Taino Chief fears for his island, and also marries a son to one of the Huastecs chiefs on the mainland to the North East. He fears he may need a safe haven if things continue so badly with the foreigners. Just seeing thier goods, seems to have poisoned his people.

[john]

1493 - The small Republic of Lucca lives in peace while warily watching surrounding lands. Especially of concern is Florence, again growing in power and influence. Florence has long sought bring Lucca under its sway. The ascension of the powerful and cunning Cardinal Giovanni de' Medici in place of his dead fool brother Piero was especially alarming. The commune decided late in 1493 that the defenses of the Republic had to be improved, and the hiring of mercenaries was authorized. Lucca would also need allies, and many options considered.

1494-1999 Letters to the Hansa were received warmly, and negotiations begun to open trade. Priveledges were granted and the Hansa built warehouses and trade increased dramatically. The city was also much better defended, as the increase in wealth allowed the expansion of defenses and more mercenaries were hired. Harbor facilities were improved, as ship traffic increased. The city was becoming a more cosmopolitan city, with traders from all parts opening offices and moving in.

[john]

1493 - A letter is sent to the Friedrich von Sachsen, Grand Master of the Teutonic Knights from the Hansa:

At present our trade is being severely curtailed by the Dutch and Scandinavians. I propose that we work toward a cooperative understanding with one or the other, and work to undermine our remaining competitor in whatever way possible. We are also interested in possibly capitalizing on the discovery of the new world by establishing a trading colony there.
Finally, I will be moving the Baltic cities toward a more official federation of free cities, and hope to invite both the Rhenish and Prussian cities to join. Should this not be possible, the Wendish Federation would simply act as a unified entity within the league.

This letter is the answer the Grand Master had been looking for. As far as he was concerned, the writing was on the wall. Prussia would sooner or later have to be abandoned. There were simply not enough knights to control and defend the land. A letter was sent in response, and a partnership begun.

1493-99 -They begin working with the Hanseatic League. Knights begin to be stationed in Hansa Cities for defence, and the island of Gota and Teutonic possesions in Prussia are open for Hansa trade and settlement. Shipyards are built in Konigsberg, and a new Teutonic fleet is built, financed and manned partly by the Hansa. Finances began to improve, and more knights were recruited. The local economy also improved and the people were mostly left alone, so they were content.

There was involvement in Sweden, with the League and Knights supporting Sten Sture in return for trade concessions.

There was also talk within the League of possibilities in the new western route to the Indies. Perhaps exploration and profit could be made there. But that would cost a lot of money, and even with the increase in wealth, more was needed.

[john]

1497 - Duke Magnus II von Mecklenburg sat in his castle and waited. Events were unfolding around him , and if he played his cards right, perhaps a Kingdom could be gained. His family had long claimed the throne of Norway, but could not take it. With the trouble between Denmark and Sweden, and the interference of the Hansa and Teutonic Knights, Magnus plotted how he might benefit. Letters were sent to the Hansa, The Swede Sten Sture, and the Grand Master of the Order, making overtures of alliance to each. He would gladly give up a Duchy to gain a Kingdom. So he waited for a response and plotted his future, raising what funds, men and ships he could.

[john]

May 5 1493 Inter Caetera of Pope Alexander VI (as per OTL, except for italics)

We (the Papacy) command you (Spain) to instrust the aforesaid inhabitants and residents and dwellers therein in the Catholic faith, and train them in good morals. Further, grants of land are to be given unto the Holy Catholic Church, in so that churches and missions may be established , to bring the them more fully into Grace.

1493-98 Pope tries to bring under control the territories of the Papal States, in an effort to create a new Duchy of Romagna for his son Giuffre. By 1498 he has largely succeded, and the creation of the Duchy is pronounced.

1495- An ambassador and bishop are sent to the Kingdom of Kongo to further conversion of the natives and establish a church presence.

Regarding the crusade to regain the Holy Land from the Vatican Archive:

From: Pierre DAubusson, cardinal of the church and grand-master of the Knights of Rhodes to His Holiness:
Your Holiness:
Rejoyce, for Jerusalem shall soon be in Christian hands once more. I have, in the waik of the so-calledCem incident, maintained a secret correspondence with the Ottoman Sultan, who purposes to attack the Mamluks who support Selim, his wayward and unnatural son who rebels against the authority of his father. The Sultan has agreed that the glorious conquest of Jerusalem shall be left to the Christians, though if he should arrive before us he plans to lease it to us at some probably exorbitant expense, for such is the way of the Turk. I have made common cause with their Catholic Majesties, who together with me are even now preparing to launch a galley fleet from Rhodes across the Mediterranean to Jafa.
Your Holiness, I ask but a simple favor of you, that you bless this conquest of Jerusalem, and consider the great lengths to which the religion (OOC: another name for the Knights of Rhodes) have gone on your behalf, and in the cause of Christ. Though many will question my decision to ally with the Turk, I would remind them that it was once a heathen Prince, Cyrus the Great, who restored Jerusalem to the Israelites, and in such like manner we might benefit from the actions of another heathen prince. There is also the matter of the restoration of the Latin patriarchate of Jerusalem, on which I shall say little more than that my heart has ever rested with that great and glorious city.

Warmest regards in Christ,

DAubusson.

To the loyal and devout D'Aubusson and the valiant crusading Knights of Rhodes, from His Holiness, Alexander VI, Bishop of Rome

May God be at your side as you wrest the Holy Lands from the Musselman. May God make you victorious and restore to Christendom the City of God, Jerusalem. May God Bless this endeavor so that righteousness may prevail. Go with God.

[Redbeard]

1497:
After having been recognised King of Sweden in 1483, but not yet crowned, Hans finally looses patience in 1497 and enters Sweden with a strong army under command of the skilled Junker Thomas Schlentz and incl. several German mercenaries.

Sten Sture's army is decisively defeated at Rotebro on 28. september 1497 and flees into Stockholm castle. Siege is laid on Stockholm which surrenders on 6th of October 1497. Sture now now has to recognise Hans as King of Sweden (incl. Finland) and Hans is crowned.

1499:
On 29th of May 1499 Hans' son Christian is recognised as heir to the throne of Sweden (and the Union).

So far this is all OTL.

Regards

Arctic Warrior/Steffen Redbeard

[VulcanTrekkie45]

1497: As a show of a renewed effort of friendship, Radu and Bogdan, the heirs to the Wallachian and Moldavian thrones respectively take two daughters, Maria and Anne, of the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid as their wives. The Ottoman blockade relaxes and Vlad allows free trade across Wallachian borders. Moldavia follows suit two months later.

[marl_d]

this is a revised posting for 1499, the 1495 post is new

1495-Wolter von Plettenberg gets word from the Teutonic Knights about the call for arms and pledges a force of 7,000 knight and heavy Calvary at their disposal.

1499-Russia and Livonia go to war as OTL over demand for back taxes and the closing of the Hansa office in Novgorod.

Ivan’s daughter Helena, Alexander of Poland/Lithuania comes to visit him and try and talk him out of attacking her Husband. Instead offering to sell a portion of the lands that Ivan claimed where Russian and also promising not to intervene in any war with Livonia and in exchange they would get Courland and Semigallia.

Ivan sends an envoy to Sweden with the proposal of dividing up the Livonian Confederation between them and Poland/Lithuania, while leaving the Port city of Riga semi autonomous to enable trade through out the region but under the influence of Russia.

(OOC)
serebryakov and I have talked about this, he seems in favor but i wanted to get it posted before the weekend, we can change a couple of things if he's not satisfied with it
LightInfa and Arctic Warrior/Steffen Redbeard are going to have to come to some agreement over Sweden, as it stands LightInfa has agreed to the division of Livonia

[Smaug]

1493 The king of Benin, marries one of his daughters to a high chiefs of the Oyo. The *guy* also builds up his contacts with the surrounding area, with a mind to marrying into, or outright taking the lands to the north west he thinks are in need of better leadership.

[Smaug]

1493 The Huastecs are in a quandary, they've been forced to submit to the Aztecs, but the recent information from thier Taino friends, leads them to believe that perhaps thier time has come. They feel comfortable that they have nothing that the Wizards want. They live a hard life, and don't have any of the shiny metal that they lust for, perhaps these foreigners can help them get back thier autonomy.

The recent marriage with the Taino also ensures that they have not only friends in the area, but also kin.

[Glen]

Smaug,

Note that the Taino on Hispaniola aren't unified. I also wonder as to how much contact the islands had with the mainland, at least that far out.

[DuQuense]

Re sweden
To Sten Sture in Stockholm:

"A date for the coronation is to be set in near future, my patience is running low. But I think you would look great as governor of Finland or at the end of a pole!".Sten Sture of Sweden sends a defiant message back to Denmark:
"Sweden will not submit to the oppresors of Denmark who seek to take Sweden's treasures and resources without anything in return. I will not submit to your rule and have my people suffer so greatly. I will not allow you to be coronated as the Swedish king."

Sweden was Happy about accepting King han as king of Sweden, They were just holding out for a few mor diplomatic favors before setting the date.
Then Denmark signed a allainace with Russia in ?94 or 95?, and Sweden defeated the Russians and broke off with Denmark.

If Denmark doesn't ally with russia theyby treating Sweden as a outside party, sweden shuld stay in the Union,

Re Naples1494: In a departure from his Spanish brethren, the Neapolitan King Alphonso II welcomed Jews (esp. merchants, schoolars and other people concerned with economic) into his Kingdom, as it was in dire need of economic reform.
You have to worry about the Itailian inqusition here, and wasn't Naples ruled by Spain at this time.

re Ottomans1493-4: Sultan Bayezid offers an amnesty to members of the Kalenderi sect, contingent upon their willingness to be gazis on the northeast and east-northeastern borders of the Ottoman Empire, defending the realm & expanding it when possible. Orders are given that they should only fight (and expand) when first attacked....and I have writs from the ulema saying that it is greater to defend and fight, than to be wantonly aggressive.Did you mean the Northwest, as the northeast is Armenia.
in 1492 after the degree of allamad the Ottomans set their fleet to Spain to evaculate the Jews.
Second, the Yemeni Sultan, after consultation with learned scholars as to the legality of such a move, proclaimed himself the Defender of the Hajj, in so far as that the Tahirid Sultanate would escort shipbound hajjis from Socotra to Jiddah, protecting them from pirates (and other potential marauders) along the way. Furthermore, it was announced that any attempt by merchants to take advantage of the hajj with exorbitant price increases would not be tolerated by the Sultanate.As Mecca and Medina were part of Yemen before the Great dam collsped in 585, this may have a dubious legality if the Sultan based his degree on this historical claim.

[QUOTE][1496: The Rhodeans and Alodi dealt the Mamelukes a mighty blow. As a result of being sandwiched between two bloodthirsty, Christian states, the Mameluke army was too widespread to react quickly. Although the campaign in the west was successful in securing the Barbary Coast (northern Libya), all of Upper Egypt was ceded to the Alodi up to the ancient Nubian cities of Aswan and Luxor on the River Nile./QUOTE]Except I had computor problems all week
I want the Hasfid Kingdom to hold the Valiet ofTripoli, the Manelukes can have the rest.

Also the Alodi are Monphyite orthodox and woud be Heritics to the Rhodeans
I want a chance to send King Eslander to help out here.

.

[Smaug]

Smaug,

Note that the Taino on Hispaniola aren't unified. I also wonder as to how much contact the islands had with the mainland, at least that far out.

I grant that its a reach, but I'm sure there were trade networks in the area, and I'm encouraging this. If it gets wanky, let me know, and I'll work with you.

I guess I'm just trying to do the best I can with a few aboriginal societies. Really my hope is to improve the lot of Native Americans (for lack of a better term). I do understand that I have to work in the realm of plausibility.

As far as the Taino, can I fling that the rest of Hispianola(?) is wracked with disease? , and the Taino keep to themselves a bit more aloof? They see the Spanish ships with thier sails too, and, make better canoes....

[Glen]

Re sweden


Sweden was Happy about accepting King han as king of Sweden, They were just holding out for a few mor diplomatic favors before setting the date.
Then Denmark signed a allainace with Russia in ?94 or 95?, and Sweden defeated the Russians and broke off with Denmark.

If Denmark doesn't ally with russia theyby treating Sweden as a outside party, sweden shuld stay in the Union,

DQ brings up a very important plausibility question. Please counter or modify your events to allow for your desired result or remove them.


Re Naples
You have to worry about the Itailian inqusition here, and wasn't Naples ruled by Spain at this time.

Naples was not as far as I can tell, though they did have close relations. And Isaac Abrabanel did indeed find refuge in Naples, and was only forced out after the French invaded (which doesn't happen ITTL). I think the Jewish influx to Naples is on firm ground here.


re OttomansDid you mean the Northwest, as the northeast is Armenia.
in 1492 after the degree of allamad the Ottomans set their fleet to Spain to evaculate the Jews.
As Mecca and Medina were part of Yemen before the Great dam collsped in 585, this may have a dubious legality if the Sultan based his degree on this historical claim.

Some good points here. Folks, please respond.

Except I had computor problems all week
I want the Hasfid Kingdom to hold the Valiet ofTripoli, the Manelukes can have the rest.

Okay, you folks try and come to some concensus on this. BTW, would the Mamelukes really be doing this badly? They may be, just asking.


Also the Alodi are Monphyite orthodox and woud be Heritics to the Rhodeans
I want a chance to send King Eslander to help out here.

Hmmm....so maybe tune down the 'fellow Christian' bit and just emphasize they are allies of convenience. And you can still have Eslander come into play. Sorry to hear about the computer. Catch up as best you can.

[DuQuense]

La Thanh Tong (ruled: 1460-1497) was the most prominent of all the Le rulers and one of the greatest Emperors in Vietnamese history. His rule was one of the high points in the history of Vietnam and was referred to as the time of a "Flood of Virtue" (Hồng Đức). He instituted a wide range of government reforms, legal reforms, and land reforms. He restarted the examination system for selecting men for important government positions. He reduced the power of the noble families and reduced the degree of corruption in the government. He built temples to Confucius throughout the provinces of Vietnam. In nearly all respects, his reforms mirrored those of the Song Dynasty.

He led a large and effective army against the Champa which succeeded in conquering the Cham capital and ended the power of the Champa forever. He created a new province out of former Champa land and allowed settlers to go to the new land.

Decline of the Le Dynasty

With the death of Le Thanh Tong the Le Dynasty fell into a swift decline (1497-1527).

1497
Le Thanh Tong, doesn't die, Instead He leads a attack on the Champa
lite blue in the south here-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:VietnamMac1560.gif --
and conquers it.
1499
Vietnam begins a period of settlement in the new Champas region

Le Tong was only 56, and there is no thing about his cause of death, assumeing it was some kind of Illness this is plausible, He was preparing for this attack at the time.

[DuQuense]

Ivan sends an envoy to Sweden with the proposal of dividing up the Livonian Confederation between them and Poland/Lithuania, while leaving the Port city of Riga semi autonomous to enable trade through out the region but under the influence of Russia.Ivan sends an envoy to Sweden with the proposal of dividing up the Livonian Confederation between them and Poland/Lithuania, while leaving the Port city of Riga semi autonomous to enable trade through out the region but under the influence of Russia.

?Does this mean that Denmark didn't ally with Russia and there was no Russian/Swedish war in the mid 1490's?

[Glen]

?Does this mean that Denmark didn't ally with Russia and there was no Russian/Swedish war in the mid 1490's?

Seems to, doesn't it.

[Glen]

I need to know how Perkin Warbeck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkin_Warbeck) is being received in the rest of this alternate world.

For the timeline, my goal is to kill him as soon as possible. Please let me know if anyone has problems with me doing so. His relevant OTL history is listed below.


He was first received by Charles VIII of France and was officially recognised as Richard of Shrewsbury by Margaret of Burgundy, who was Edward IV's sister and the widow of Charles I, Duke of Burgundy. It is not known whether or not she knew he was a fraud. Warbeck was also welcomed by various other monarchs; in 1493, he attended the funeral of Frederick III, Holy Roman Emperor in Vienna,where he was recognised as King Richard IV of England, at the invitation of his son Maximilian I.[1]

On July 3, 1495, funded by Margaret of Burgundy, Perkin attempted a landing in England. His forces, however, were small and once again he was forced to retreat almost immediately, this time to Ireland. There he found support from the Earl of Desmond and laid siege to Waterford, but, meeting resistance, he fled to Scotland. There he was well received by James IV of Scotland, who would always spring at a chance to annoy England and permitted him to marry his cousin, Lady Catherine Gordon.

In September 1496, Scotland launched an attack on England, but quickly retreated when support from Northumberland failed to materialise. Now wishing to be rid of Perkin, James IV expelled him and Perkin returned to Waterford in shame. Once again he attempted to lay siege to the city, but this time his effort lasted only eleven days before he was forced to flee Ireland, chased by four English ships. According to some sources, by this time he was left with only one hundred and twenty men on two ships.

In 1497, he landed in Cornwall, hoping to capitalise on the Cornish people's resentment in the aftermath of their uprising only three months earlier. As the rebellion was swiftly put down, however, and many of the peasants were unwilling to commit to an extended engagement against the King, Warbeck found little support for a renewed rising against King Henry. Leaving Cornwall for London, he mounted a feeble military challenge to Henry but fled Henry's army a few days before battle would have been joined. He was captured and imprisoned in the Tower of London alongside a genuine claimant Edward, Earl of Warwick, with whom he tried to escape in 1499. Captured once again, he was hanged as a traitor at Tyburn.

[DuQuense]

1493
Muhammad XII [Boabdil of Granada], has a major argueement with his Mother and her Advisors, and moves to the City of Zarzis in SE Tunisia.

1494
Most of Moorish Granadaians fleeing from spain either go to Tielsim [Small kingdom now part of Morocco] if followers of the Mother, or to Zarzis if a follower of Boabdil.

1496
The remains of the Granada Army has settled in the Valiyet of Zarzis, or in Valilet of Tripoli,
they prevent the Maraluke from Conquering Tripoli, when they take the rest of Libya..

1497
Enuff Moors have emmigrated to the Region south of Zarzis that is is being called New Granada by Europeans.

Due the increasing prosicution of Jews in Portugal [ In1505 they are kicked out like in 1492 Spain]
Boabdil has also began attracting a lot of the Spainish Jews, from Granada who had fleed to Portugal .



Part of the reason Granada fall was that there was a low level power struggle going on between Boabdil and his Mother,
She was very bitter over the loss, and I can see the two going different ways.

The Presence of lots of the Granadan Army allowed the Kingdom of Tiesliem [NW border coast] to hold off anexxation by Morrocco.
So if the Army is in the Hasfid Kingdom, they can hold off the Marelukes and Morroco can Anexx Tiesliem.

[Glen]

Proposed event:

1495 July 4: Perkin Warbeck attempt to raise rebellion in England fails, and he is killed during the attempt to return to his ships.

[Glen]

(1496 September: Since Perkin Warbeck dies in 1495, he does not stir trouble between Scotland and England, and while tension remains on the border, the peace holds.)

[marl_d]

?Does this mean that Denmark didn't ally with Russia and there was no Russian/Swedish war in the mid 1490's?

thanks for pointing that out it was 1495-1497...i totally missed that while putting this thing together, though i did read about it earlier, i guess some of it depends on what happens in this TL with Denmark and Sweden seeing as they both are claiming 2 different things right now. i kinda wish those guys had worked out what happens

[DuQuense]

1494
Pero da Covilhã - An envoy from the King of Portugal to the Kingdom of Prester John, discovers a plot against the 22 year old King Eslander.
By the Family of the Desposed Bitwooden [Prime Minister] and several of the Provincial Strongmen.
King Eslander, Moves against the Plotters.

1495
the Small Civil War is over and Power of the Provices is broken for now.
King Aslander has a daughter. by his wife
rameiro

1495 - The Mamelukes begin their westward expansion towards the Barbary Coast. The Sultan orders the amassing of all able-bodied troops to the western borderlands. He deploys all southern troops to monitor civil unrest in the Protectorate of Nubia-Alodia.

1496 - The Alodian Nubians begin an open revolt against their Mameluke oppressors. The Christian King of Nubia approaches Rhodes for assistance.
I have problem with this But .............

1496
King Aslander become aware of the Alodians mission to Rhodes, His Advisors are concerned about the Matter.
While the Alodians are Monphyisite Heritics, they are Orthodox Heritics as opposed to the Catholic Heritics.
King Aslander offers to send some Warriors to help protect the Byzantine Churches and works of Art from the Catholic Cursaders.
King Aslander has a Son by his Conubine, the Son is named "Eon" after the great King from the 6th Century.

[AJNolte]

Re sweden


Sweden was Happy about accepting King han as king of Sweden, They were just holding out for a few mor diplomatic favors before setting the date.
Then Denmark signed a allainace with Russia in ?94 or 95?, and Sweden defeated the Russians and broke off with Denmark.

If Denmark doesn't ally with russia theyby treating Sweden as a outside party, sweden shuld stay in the Union,

Re Naples
You have to worry about the Itailian inqusition here, and wasn't Naples ruled by Spain at this time.

re OttomansDid you mean the Northwest, as the northeast is Armenia.
in 1492 after the degree of allamad the Ottomans set their fleet to Spain to evaculate the Jews.
As Mecca and Medina were part of Yemen before the Great dam collsped in 585, this may have a dubious legality if the Sultan based his degree on this historical claim.

[quote][1496: The Rhodeans and Alodi dealt the Mamelukes a mighty blow. As a result of being sandwiched between two bloodthirsty, Christian states, the Mameluke army was too widespread to react quickly. Although the campaign in the west was successful in securing the Barbary Coast (northern Libya), all of Upper Egypt was ceded to the Alodi up to the ancient Nubian cities of Aswan and Luxor on the River Nile./QUOTE]Except I had computor problems all week
I want the Hasfid Kingdom to hold the Valiet ofTripoli, the Manelukes can have the rest.

Also the Alodi are Monphyite orthodox and woud be Heritics to the Rhodeans
I want a chance to send King Eslander to help out here.

.
Note that since the 1450s-1460s, the Rhodeans had tolerated the Orthodox Arch-Bishop of Rhodes. While not exactly paragons of tolerance here, given dAubusson's willingness to ally with the Ottomans, treating the Alodi as fellow Christians (even if the are heretics), does make sense. That being said, more help is probably welcome. I propose a peace conference to settle the aftermath of the Malmuk war to be held in 1500 in Jerusalem (al-Qudus). There are many conflicting parties who's interests must be addressed. I submit that a few years of confusion probably makes sense at this time period, since everyone will primarily be concerned with consolidation.

[LightInfa]

Re sweden


Sweden was Happy about accepting King han as king of Sweden, They were just holding out for a few mor diplomatic favors before setting the date.
Then Denmark signed a allainace with Russia in ?94 or 95?, and Sweden defeated the Russians and broke off with Denmark.

If Denmark doesn't ally with russia theyby treating Sweden as a outside party, sweden shuld stay in the Union,




While for the most part, the nobles did want King Hans to be coronated, Sten Sture did not want the Danish King to be coronated as King of Sweden. Of course by 1497, he wasn't able to resist Denmark any longer and he was forced to recognize Hans as the king. So overall, I don't think my events need to be revised.

[arctic warrior]

1493:
King Hans' sole claim to Copenhagen makes him able to better support English merchants travelling to the Scania heering marked.
Hans enters an alliance with Russian ruler Ivan 3.

1494:
During Easter the Royal Steward Poul Laxmand meet representatives of the Swedish nobility who make the Swedish Council of the Realm agree to Swedens re-joining the Kalmar Union.

1495:
A Russian army enters Karelia laying siege to Viborg but the fortress commander Knud Posse repel the invasion.
The Council of the Realm convince King Hans that the Russian alliance is going to lose Sweden for ever.

1497:
Svante Nilsson attack the Russian fortress of Ivangorod on the Nava. The fortress is destroyed. A truce is made with Russia. Svante Nilsson joins the nobility against Sten Sture and on March 7. the Swedish Council of the Realm depose Sten Sture as Regent.

[LightInfa]

1493:
King Hans' sole claim to Copenhagen makes him able to better support English merchants travelling to the Scania heering marked.
Hans enters an alliance with Russian ruler Ivan 3.

1494:
During Easter the Royal Steward Poul Laxmand meet representatives of the Swedish nobility who make the Swedish Council of the Realm agree to Swedens re-joining the Kalmar Union.

1495:
A Russian army enters Karelia laying siege to Viborg but the fortress commander Knud Posse repel the invasion.
The Council of the Realm convince King Hans that the Russian alliance is going to lose Sweden for ever.

1497:
Svante Nilsson attack the Russian fortress of Ivangorod on the Nava. The fortress is destroyed. A truce is made with Russia. Svante Nilsson joins the nobility against Sten Sture and on March 7. the Swedish Council of the Realm depose Sten Sture as Regent.

As far as I know, Sweden is not at war with Russia. We are cooperating in the partition of Livonia.

[arctic warrior]

1493:
King Hans enters an alliance with Russian ruler Ivan 3.

1494:
During Easter the Royal Steward Poul Laxmand meet representatives of the Swedish nobility who make the Swedish Council of the Realm agree to Swedens re-joining the Kalmar Union.

1495:
A Russian army enters Karelia laying siege to Viborg but the fortress commander Knud Posse repel the invasion.
The Council of the Realm convince King Hans that the Russian alliance is going to lose Sweden for ever.

1497:
Svante Nilsson attack the Russian fortress of Ivangorod on the Nava. The fortress is destroyed. A truce is made with Russia.

The alliance with Russia was made to counter Sten Sture. We, Redbeard and I didn't see a way out of this. I'm perfectly satisfied with the abolition of this alliance as to the deal LightInfa made with Russia and Redbeard will be so too - if its okay with you Glen.

[LightInfa]

marl_d, does this situation for the Livonian partition work for you?

1499:

Russia contacts the Kalmar Union about a partition of Livonia. It is decided that the Union will take Estonia, but Estonia will be added onto the Duchy of Finland, ruled by Duke Sten Sture, under the soveriegnty of the Kalmar Union.

[Keenir]

1492 - Sultan Bayezid sends his fleet to Spain to evacuate the Jews. (with orders only to return fire, but never to start a fight; again, self-defense only)

1493-4: Sultan Bayezid offers an amnesty to members of the Kalenderi sect, contingent upon their willingness to be gazis on the northwest and west-northwestern borders of the Ottoman Empire, defending the realm & expanding it when possible. Orders are given that they should only fight (and expand) when first attacked....and I have writs from the ulema saying that it is greater to defend and fight, than to be wantonly aggressive.
Did you mean the Northwest, as the northeast is Armenia.
in 1492 after the degree of allamad the Ottomans set their fleet to Spain to evaculate the Jews.

respectively - yes, and thanks for pointing it out.

[marl_d]

marl_d, does this situation for the Livonian partition work for you?

1499:

Russia contacts the Kalmar Union about a partition of Livonia. It is decided that the Union will take Estonia, but Estonia will be added onto the Duchy of Finland, ruled by Duke Sten Sture, under the soveriegnty of the Kalmar Union.

yeah, that'll work, my biggest issue was just you two/three decided on what was going to happen with Sweden/Denmark, but that works for me

[Glen]

1493 The Huastecs are in a quandary, they've been forced to submit to the Aztecs, but the recent information from thier Taino friends, leads them to believe that perhaps thier time has come. They feel comfortable that they have nothing that the Wizards want. They live a hard life, and don't have any of the shiny metal that they lust for, perhaps these foreigners can help them get back thier autonomy.

The recent marriage with the Taino also ensures that they have not only friends in the area, but also kin.

Moderators, do you find this entry okay without editing, or should there be changes made?

[Tom Veil]

From 500 Nations, pp. 118-119:

"In 1492, for example, in this ancient, stable world, a paramount chief named Guacanagari -- who would become well known to Columbus -- ruled over a district along the northern coast of Hispanola. He and other Arawak chiefs prevised at the center of a trade network that was the lifeblood of the island peoples. Navigating in large, oceangoing canoes, some capable of carrying 150 men, the Arawaks traveled between islands and even to distant mainland villages in Florida, Mesoamerica, and perhaps Central and Southern America, their craft laden with traders and their goods, including feathers, gold, wood, pottery, cotton thread and fabric, parrots, fruits, and other foods."

We learn a few useful things here.
1. The Taino/Arawak have many, very small nations. (This source (http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/299.html)shows a dozen nations on Puerto Rico alone).
2. The Taino/Arawak had contact with Mesoamerica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerica) (coastal Mexico), but Central_America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_America) (Honduras on south) is pushing the limits of their vessels
3. The Taino/Arawak are trading in raw goods and very, very basic handmade goods. So I wouldn't expect them to be too helpful in a war. Remember, as Bartolomé_de_Las_Casas (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bartolomé_de_Las_Casas) so graphically chronicled in OTL, these guys were absolutely outmatched Spanish germs, technology, and cruelty.


In short: a Huastec person could marry a Taino. But it's not at all going to confer the sort of advantage that Smaug appears to be hoping for -- and it might even be a liability.

[Tom Veil]

OK, I only had to change a few of the events in #46 (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1084837&postcount=46) to avoid the "Babur problem", but for the sake of convenience, I am totally re-posting all of my international events for India in the 1490s.

January 1497: Barbak Shah Lodhi makes his quest for glory by launching a mission to re-conquer the ancient Lodhi homeland in Afghanistan. His army is massive – surely not the “Seven Lakh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakh)Army” that history will record, but at least 150,000 men and 1200 elephants.
January 9, 1497: Barbak gets off to a strong start by steamrolling the unsuspecting, tiny principality of Thanesar.
February 7-20, 1497: The Battle of Lahore sets the tone for Barbak’s War – bloody. At least 20,000 die, and Barbak celebrates his “victory” by burning Lahore. This inhuman tactic works: minor tribes from all around the Panjab pledge their entire armies to Barbak, fearing that any lesser show of loyalty will lead to their own destruction.
March-April 1497: The First Battle of Peshawar. Barbak meets his first real resistance here, and the battle ends in a stalemate. 25,000 die, and Peshawar earns its nickname, “KhunsnaCity”, or The Spiteful City.
May 4, 1497: Aladdin Husain, Sultan of Bengal, marches across the undefended eastern Lodhi border.His troops move quickly and loot indiscriminately.
May 19, 1497: Barbak circles back and conquers Multan, hoping to march back toward the new Bengali threat. His army soars to its apex, an unwieldy 250,000 men – but his enemies are growing, too.
May 24, 1497: Gondwana and Berar, fearing that Bengal will emerge as the new dominant power, send troops to defend the eastern Lodhi border. Local nobles take up arms as well, and some of the fighting moves into the cities – a rarity in Indian warfare. Aladdin Husain fumes that he will kill every nobleman who had sworn allegiance to the Lodhis.
June 1497: Several Pashtun armies in India commit to the “Lahore Vengeance”, as do many small tribes to the north.
June 1497: Rana Raimal calls his sons and cousins back from their semi-exiles. The Rana rewards them by giving them ministerial control over various domestic affairs – but in following with his advisor Ajja’s counsel, none has power independent of the others. He then sets out to win support among the other Rajput principalities for a “Grand Rajputana Army” under his command.
June 9 - July 23, 1497: The Massacre at Mathura. An ordinary battle turns into a total nightmare as several armies switch sides, and finally, the Monsoon and the ensuing disease kills off most of the remaining soldiers. At least 250,000 die, but rumors spread of 700,000 dead, perhaps in reference to the “Seven Lakh Army.” Among the dead are the Sultan of Berar Fath-Allah, the Sultan of Gujarat, and Sultan of Bengal Aladdin Husain. The Bengali and Berar armies are broken from death and desertions, but the Delhi Sultanate fares even worse. Barbak Shah Lodhi is forced to flee to the north.
July 4, 1497: Rana Raimal recruits soldiers from the last holdout Rajput principality. Most nations are represented only by token forces who fight without the approval of their leader, but Raimal is still fairly justified in his boast that he was done the impossible and united the Rajputs in one month.
July 23, 1497 – January 23, 1498: Guru Nanak Dev, saddened by the suffering at Mathura, spends 6 months meditating on the battlefield, almost motionless even as clergy and workers bury bodies all around him and turn the battlefield into a graveyard.
July 25, 1497: Rana Raimal’s Grand Rajputana Army, which had been quietly watching from a nearby town while the Massacre at Mathura unfolded, finally declare war on the Delhi Sultanate and capture Mathura. The contrast of the repugnant fields of death and decay with the joy of the Mathura people, whose food and water supplies had been running low, will become the subject of art and literature for countless generations.
August 5-15, 1497: The Second Battle of Peshawar spells the end of the Lodhi Dynasty. Barbak dies on the 14th in a blaze of glory, with a desperate final charge in which 80,000 soldiers die.
August 11, 1497: Rana Raimal and marches on Delhi, collecting Rajput and other Hindu vassals along the way. Sultan Sikandar is helpless to defend himself, and Delhi is a Hindi city for the first time in 300 years. In a gesture that no educated Indian could mistake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prithviraj_III#Muhammad_Ghori), his son Prithviraj actually leads the troops back into Delhi.
September 1497: Rana Raimal invites all of his sons’ religious teachers to Delhi, and has them jointly coronate him as the Rajamaharana Raimal I of Rajputana and Bhārata. His son Prithviraj is named Raj Prithviraj IV of Delhi.
September 1497: Acting quickly before they can rebuild their troops, Sangramsingh leads a small contingent to conquer the chaotic Bengali Sultanate, while Rawat Sarangdeo leads another contingent of troops into Berar. Otherwise, the armies are sent home to recuperate.
January 1498: Rajamaharana Raimal I launches two major policy initiatives. One is to follow all of the recommendation of Sultan Sikandar’s survey. The other is a tax on all Muslims, akin to the tax that the Sultanate once placed on all non-Muslims.
1498: Heartbroken by the stunning reversal of fortunes, many first-generation Muslims living under Rajamaharana Raimal I move back home. For those who have lived in India for generations, though, relocation hardly seems a viable prospect. These Muslims find consolation in an unlikely source: Royal Guru Nanak Dev. The Great Guru has developed a new form of Hinduism that recognizes many of the most sacred tenets of Islam. From a Guru who was less wise than Nanak Dev, or who had less Royal favor, this might be considered double heresy. Instead, the practice of “Vāhigurū Sikh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waheguru)” spreads rapidly.

[Glen]

I grant that its a reach, but I'm sure there were trade networks in the area, and I'm encouraging this. If it gets wanky, let me know, and I'll work with you.

I guess I'm just trying to do the best I can with a few aboriginal societies. Really my hope is to improve the lot of Native Americans (for lack of a better term). I do understand that I have to work in the realm of plausibility.

As far as the Taino, can I fling that the rest of Hispianola(?) is wracked with disease? , and the Taino keep to themselves a bit more aloof? They see the Spanish ships with thier sails too, and, make better canoes....

Not going to make much of a difference in the short run, I'm afraid. Taino can't do anything like catch-up, and can't shield themselves from the shattering effect of contact.

Given the fact that your Hausec/Taino match-up isn't likely to benefit you in the way you seem to wish it, and in fact might be seen as a bit odd among the Hausec, do you still wish to go forward with that event?

[Glen]

1493 - 1494 As part of his effort to strengthen the Imperial Army, Emperor Maximilian I delibrately attempts to recruit Swiss mercenaries to strengthen his armies. He creates an organizational system whereby small units of veteran troops are distributed throughout the standing armies, to strengthen the largely green units.
As part of his attempt to gain access to large numbers of Swiss troops, he offers the Swiss Confederacy a large degree of autonomy within the Empire, such a large degree of autonomy as for their Confederacy to be almost an independent nation. The only requirement they will still be bound by is a tax, a tax to be paid with the lending of veteran troops. That, and a defensive alliance with the Empire if the French or Italians invade Imperial territory in the south.

I'm going to hold off on including this in the timeline until RCTFI and I have a chance to work out some things in PMs.

[JP_Morgan]

1493: Askia Muhammed defeats Sonni Baru, previous songhia ruler one battle and becomes king of the Songhai. He immiditely sets about implementing islamic law in his kingdom
1494-95:Askia Muhammed invaded Mali, and is successful enough in defeating the Malians that he permenently annexes them
1496:Askia Muhammed starts to conquer lands up to Air in the northwest. At the same time, he starts to consolidate the bureucracy he started to help govern the empire
1497-99:Askia conquers Air

Say, does anybody know any books on the songhai. If there are, i'll surrender my possesion of the songhai nation, since online sources arent't p[articualrly detailed, and my county just shut down their libraries, because of the loss of something called O&C funds, basically timber receipts that pay for many services in rural Oregon counties There'll be no rural patrols, so i've got a shotgun ready to shoot any meth addicts that i see on my property

[DuQuense]

The Bengali and Berar armies are broken from death and desertions,September 1497: Acting quickly before they can rebuild their troops, Sangramsingh leads a small contingent to conquer the chaotic Bengali Sultanate,
during the 1400'sthe Thai's spent the century attacking the Malay's in the pennulusia, and moving south.
Attacking the Kingdom of Lao, and having China intervene to prevent them from gaining much.
Attacking the Kymer Empire and taking territory, And Having there heads handled to them every time they attacked The Bengali Sulanate.

If the Bengals are now out of the picture, [Noiw part of the new Rapujt Empire] The Thai's will probaly redouble there attacks in Malay, & Kymer.

?who is running the Malay area?

[DuQuense]

Vasco da Gama sailed from Lisbon, Portugal, on July 8, 1497, heading to the East. At the time, many people thought that da Gama's trip would be impossible because it was assumed that the Indian Ocean was not connected to any other seas. Da Gama's patron was King Manuel I of Portugal.

Da Gama rounded Africa's Cape of Good Hope on November 22, and continued on to India. After many stops in Africa, and problems with Muslim traders who did not want interference in their profitable trade routes, da Gama reached Calicut, India on May 20, 1498.

?Did this still take place?
At first, da Gama and his trading were well-received, but this did not last for long. Da Gama left India on August 29, 1498, after he was told to pay a large tax and leave all of his trading goods. When he left, da Gama took his goods with him, together with some Indian hostages.

Da Gama returned to Lisbon, Portugal, in September, 1499. Along the way many crew members died from scurvy (a disease caused by a lack of Vitamin C). Upon his return, da Gama was treated as a hero and was rewarded by the king.

King Manuel I of Portugal then sent da Gama, now an Admiral, on another expedition to India (1502-1503). On this second trip, da Gama took 20 armed ships (anticipating problems from Muslim traders). On this voyage, da Gama killed hundreds of Muslims, often brutally, in order to demonstrate his power.

?How will this be changed by the new power in India?.

[Glen]

1493 Word of the arrival of people from the sea, has trickled throughout the Caribbean. They seem to have a lust for Yellow metal, spreading over-all distrust of these foreign wizards.


1494 The Muisca begin to move north and east to add to thier confederation, and to perhaps barter with the foreigners. The Caribs show the Muisca the goods they've traded for, and unknowingly share the Small Pox with the Muisca. As if the epidemic isn't bad enough, rivalries with the Zaque of Hunza, especially for the possession of the salt mines, a precious boon for the Muisca economy.

There have been concerns raised about the likelihood of the Caribbean tribes who met Columbus on his first voyage reaching South America. Also not certain that Smallpox came over on the very first voyage. I suggest that you hold off until the late 1490s at least for the ravages of European illness to reach your territory.


1495 The head of the Northern Muisca Confederation, marries his oldest daughter to the son of the Chief of the Taino on ?Hispanola?. This might give the Muisca the ability to trade throughout the Caribbean. The Taino Chief fears for his island, and also marries a son to one of the Huastecs chiefs on the mainland to the North East. He fears he may need a safe haven if things continue so badly with the foreigners. Just seeing thier goods, seems to have poisoned his people.

Again, way too early, and why is he reaching out to Hispaniola and the Haustecs? They are so far from his core territory this really doesn't make much sense. Sorry for the delay on this...been a bad week.

I'm going to hold off on adding these. I suggest that you rework them and wait until tomorrow to post them in the early 1500s.

[Tom Veil]

during the 1400'sthe Thai's spent the century attacking the Malay's in the pennulusia, and moving south.
Attacking the Kingdom of Lao, and having China intervene to prevent them from gaining much.
Attacking the Kymer Empire and taking territory, And Having there heads handled to them every time they attacked The Bengali Sulanate.

If the Bengals are now out of the picture, [Noiw part of the new Rapujt Empire] The Thai's will probaly redouble there attacks in Malay, & Kymer.

?who is running the Malay area?
The other problem that the Thai face is that Burma has some of the most imposing territory in the world -- monsoons, tropical diseases, and two major mountain ranges. But yes, the Rajput Empire currently has much less power to project itself eastward than the Bengalis did, and it will be a while before they try to involve themselves in Thai affairs.

[Tom Veil]

?Did [Da Gama] still take place?


?How will [Da Gama] be changed by the new power in India?.

I am not aware of Da Gama or any other Europeans reaching India in the 1493+ TL.

The Lodhi meltdown and Rajput rise has irrevocably altered Northern India, but Deccan India is less affected, and Southern India has yet to change at all. Most of OTL Da Gama's interaction was with the Vijayanagara_Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijayanagara_Empire), which I believe Messiniano selected but then dropped.

[Smaug]

Not going to make much of a difference in the short run, I'm afraid. Taino can't do anything like catch-up, and can't shield themselves from the shattering effect of contact.

Given the fact that your Hausec/Taino match-up isn't likely to benefit you in the way you seem to wish it, and in fact might be seen as a bit odd among the Hausec, do you still wish to go forward with that event?

I'd be content with the Hausec gaining Taino sailing technology, and perhaps trading more. Is that ok?

[Glen]

I am not aware of Da Gama or any other Europeans reaching India in the 1493+ TL.

The Lodhi meltdown and Rajput rise has irrevocably altered Northern India, but Deccan India is less affected, and Southern India has yet to change at all. Most of OTL Da Gama's interaction was with the Vijayanagara_Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijayanagara_Empire), which I believe Messiniano selected but then dropped.

Unless the Portuguese participant states otherwise, then Portugal will procede as they did OTL. So, what would happen to Da Gama in 1493 TL?

[Tom Veil]

Unless the Portuguese participant states otherwise, then Portugal will procede as they did OTL. So, what would happen to Da Gama in 1493 TL?
Well, based on OTL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasco_Da_Gama#First_voyage):

July 8, 1497: Da Gama leaves Lisbon
December 16, 1497: Da Gama passes White River and begins to round the Cape of Good Hope
February 1498: Da Gama reaches Malindi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malindi) in East Africa and hires an Arab navigator.
May 20, 1498: Vasco Da Gama along with three ships and 170 men, lands at Kappakadavu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappad), a beach town situated about 16km from Kozhikode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozhikode), and is welcomed by the then Samoothiri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamorin), Manivikraman Raja. The Vijayanagara Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijayanagara_Empire) is in the middle of a civil war, so the Samoothiri has fairly wide latitude in his negotiations with Da Gama. The Portugese are happy to (mistakenly) see that "Cochin" is inhabited by a strange Christian sect (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1497degama.html) (Hindus), but do not get along with the Muslim ruler nor the Muslim merchant class.
October 5, 1498: After a quarrel with the Samoothiri about establishing a trade monopoly, Da Gama's fleet flees for Portugal, although some men agree to stay behind. Clearly, they will need more weaponry next time.
July 10, 1499: Da Gama's advance ship, piloted by Nicoláo Coelho, returns to Portugal.
Sept 9, 1499: Da Gama sails back into Lisbon. King Manuel makes the Da Gama family all lords, and names Da Gama Admiral of the Indian Ocean.
December 1500: After yet another quarrel with the Samoothiri and the Muslim traders, the remaining Portugese flee Khozikode.
December 24, 1500: Pedro Alvares Cabral negotiates with the Raja of Kochi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kochi%2C_India), and the Raja agrees to take in the Portugese merchants.

[DuQuense]

[QUOTE][1496
King Aslander become aware of the Alodians mission to Rhodes, His Advisors are concerned about the Matter.
While the Alodians are Monphyisite Heritics, they are Orthodox Heritics as opposed to the Catholic Heritics.
King Aslander offers to send some Warriors to help protect the Byzantine Churches and works of Art from the Catholic Cursaders.
King Aslander has a Son by his Conubine, the Son is named "Eon" after the great King from the 6th Century./QUOTE]

1497
King Eslander's Warriors begin reporting about the hundreds of books and pieces of Art in the old Byzantine churches being ""Liberated"" from the Berber/Arab Mulins.
Remembreing the tales of Axum having had a copy of the Famed Library of Alexanderia-King Eslander orders as many as possible of these liberated Books and Art to be sent south to Ethiopia.
This will be a ongoing project of the King for the rest of his Life.

The King also begins hearing about the musketeers attached with the European forces.
King Eslander sends a Letter to the King of Portugal requesting some Gunsmiths, to teach how to make these new weapons. He also requests some Soldiers to teach the use of these Muskets.

1500
Ethiopia hears about the Vasco da Gama expidition, King Eslander orders the Royal Shipyards reopened.
As there haven't been any Royal Shipyards for 600 years this is not easy.
The Ethiopians send a Expidition to Europe to Hire Shipwrights. They also send a Expidition to the Vijayanagara Empire, for the same reason.
Meanwhile they begin building a shipyard in Djibiouti. This involves the movment of hundreds of Ethiopians into the City. This will help cement the City as firmly Ethiopian.

OTOH this is resented by the Somolia Tribes in the Garand, and Ogden regions to the East, the first stirring of the great revolt begin .

[KineticBots]

1493: On the occasion of the birth of an heir to the Ming throne, the Ashikaga shogunate commissions an embassy to the Chinese court, presenting gifts to the Imperial family, especially the Emperor, the new heir, and the child's mother. Shogun Ashikaga Yoshitane is looking to foster better relations with Ming China (although relations between the two countries are not bad).

Ryukyku likewise sends an embassy. Although humble, it is still lavish. Ryukyu is of course a Chinese quasi-vassal, so the Ryukyuan embassy is not as surprising as the Japanese one.


1497: A Ryukyuan merchant fleet is forced ashore on Taiwan by bad weather, where they are forced to stay for several days after many of their ships are wrecked in the storm. The merchants attempt to trade with the local aborigines for the resources they need to repair their ships, but after apparently violating a local law some of the sailors are attacked by the locals and a violent skirmish ensues, ending with the slaughter of many of the sailors. Survivors flee in what ships can be salvaged and return to Ryukyu. Upon hearing of the news, Ryukyuan king Sho shin vows revenge.
He commissions an embassy to China requesting that Ming authorities bring the restless natives to justice.


That's all for now.
Regards,
KineticBots

[pa_dutch]

From 500 Nations, pp. 118-119:

"In 1492, for example, in this ancient, stable world, a paramount chief named Guacanagari -- who would become well known to Columbus -- ruled over a district along the northern coast of Hispanola. He and other Arawak chiefs prevised at the center of a trade network that was the lifeblood of the island peoples. Navigating in large, oceangoing canoes, some capable of carrying 150 men, the Arawaks traveled between islands and even to distant mainland villages in Florida, Mesoamerica, and perhaps Central and Southern America, their craft laden with traders and their goods, including feathers, gold, wood, pottery, cotton thread and fabric, parrots, fruits, and other foods."

We learn a few useful things here.
1. The Taino/Arawak have many, very small nations. (This source (http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/299.html)shows a dozen nations on Puerto Rico alone).
2. The Taino/Arawak had contact with Mesoamerica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerica) (coastal Mexico), but Central_America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_America) (Honduras on south) is pushing the limits of their vessels
3. The Taino/Arawak are trading in raw goods and very, very basic handmade goods. So I wouldn't expect them to be too helpful in a war. Remember, as Bartolomé_de_Las_Casas (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bartolomé_de_Las_Casas) so graphically chronicled in OTL, these guys were absolutely outmatched Spanish germs, technology, and cruelty.


In short: a Huastec person could marry a Taino. But it's not at all going to confer the sort of advantage that Smaug appears to be hoping for -- and it might even be a liability.

Yes, it also makes sense that the Taino had contact with the Mesoamericans due to the evidence of ballcourts on Caribbean islands, similar to those found among the Mayans.

As for the divisions of the Taino into cheifdoms, it seems that there were five major cheifdoms on Hispaniola, and over seventeen on Puerto Rico. Information on the Taino political situation is cloudier on Cuba and even sketchier with Jamaica and the Bahamas. On Cuba, the Taino were still colonizing and displacing the native Ciboney, while on the smaller islands the Taino were being displaced themselves by the Caribs. It might make sense that the smaller islands were even more divided due to the constant threat of Carib invasion.

[AJNolte]

Note: the Knights of Rhodes are very good ship-builders. In exchange for the right to open a small commandry (hospital and say 20 knights and a number of ship-builders) in Djibouti, I suspect that DAubusson would be willing to help you with your fleet.

[LightInfa]

1499:

Mecklenburg and the Kalmar Union sign an alliance in which:
1. Magnus II, Duke of Mecklenburg, renounces all claims to the Norwegain throne.
2. The Royal Navy of the Union of Kalmar shall patrol and protect the shores and coastlines of Mecklenburg from hostile ships and nations.
3. Mecklenburg will be given trading privileges in the Union on certain resources such as fish, timber, furs, tar, meat, and other products.
4. The Kalmar Union shall protect Mecklenberg merchantmen on the high seas.
5. If either nation is attacked by another country or entity, then the other nation will come to their aid militarily.

[AJNolte]

1500: using the gold which they received for the sail of Sicily to Napples, the Spanish outfit Columbus with a moderately-sized armada, instructing him to sail to the new world and claim as much of it for Spain as possible. Columbus sets out, planning to map the Caribbean and the fabled continental lands which border it.

[Tom Veil]

Is Columbus ITTL still convinced that he's reached India, or does he also realize that he's found a "new world"?

[Glen]

1499: The Hongzhi Emperor, going against the wishes of his advisors, decides to begin construction of a new fleet of "treasure ships," a fleet larger, better armed, and better manned than any at the disposal of the late Admiral Zheng He. Their purpose was suprisingly simple, yet it was the most dangerous, and unknown trip that any Chinese sailing vessel had attempted before this: They were ordered to sail east to the legendary land which the Buddhist priest Hoei-Shin visited, according to the Book of Liang, in AD499, 1000 years prior, the land which Hoei-Shin named "Fusang." While the Hongzhi Emperor's claim that Fusang was not Japan was a shock to many eunuchs and imperial advisors, they agreed to the expedition.

To reemphasize, GP. I think this event is too radical a departure without cause, and too early at that. While I want those Chinese colonies to emerge, I think you need to find a different series of events for it.

I'd like my co-moderators to comment on this one as well, to confirm my own instincts on this one.

[Glen]

1499: The Hongzhi Emperor, going against the wishes of his advisors, decides to begin construction of a new fleet of "treasure ships," a fleet larger, better armed, and better manned than any at the disposal of the late Admiral Zheng He. Their purpose was suprisingly simple, yet it was the most dangerous, and unknown trip that any Chinese sailing vessel had attempted before this: They were ordered to sail east to the legendary land which the Buddhist priest Hoei-Shin visited, according to the Book of Liang, in AD499, 1000 years prior, the land which Hoei-Shin named "Fusang." While the Hongzhi Emperor's claim that Fusang was not Japan was a shock to many eunuchs and imperial advisors, they agreed to the expedition.

To reemphasize, GP. I think this event is too radical a departure without cause, and too early at that. While I want those Chinese colonies to emerge, I think you need to find a different series of events for it.

I'd like my co-moderators to comment on this one as well, to confirm my own instincts on this one.

[General_Paul]

To reemphasize, GP. I think this event is too radical a departure without cause, and too early at that. While I want those Chinese colonies to emerge, I think you need to find a different series of events for it.

I'd like my co-moderators to comment on this one as well, to confirm my own instincts on this one.

Hey Glen,

Actually, just for clarification, I do know that the event is quite radical but I was planning on having the reconstruction of the treasure fleet take a few decades due to some, ahem, "barbarian" problems on the frontier that will absorb the emperor and the imperial court for some time to come. I wasn't planning on having the Chinese treasure fleet sail east until the mid-late 1520's when the fleet is finally completed after 20 years of off and on construction periods inbetween nomad wars and some social and economic shake-ups.

However, if you feel that it's too radical, I'd be more than happy to re-write it to make it become something along the lines of the emperor taking an interest in the old Zheng He records and expressing shock and outrage as to why Zheng He's exploratory and tributary missions were brought to an end, leading the emperor to state that he would "support the reconstruction of the Treasure Fleet entirely, should finances prove to be sufficient to support such an endeavor."

Does that sound a bit less, um, dramatic?

[Glen]

I think the big plausibility question you have to answer is why the historical emperor of China, who did no such thing in OTL, would suddenly and without provocation develop an interest in this. If I were you, I'd recommend getting your crown prince interested in the voyages as a child, and then knocking off the old man when your 'auspicious child' is in his early twenties. Then have him take an interest in building up Chinese naval adventuring.

But that is just me. You need to take this your own way, of course. But if you are going to stick more with what you're doing now, I think you need to come up with some reasons for the Emperor's increased interest. That can be done, I'm sure, just have less suggestions off the top of my head for it.

Hey Glen,

Actually, just for clarification, I do know that the event is quite radical but I was planning on having the reconstruction of the treasure fleet take a few decades due to some, ahem, "barbarian" problems on the frontier that will absorb the emperor and the imperial court for some time to come. I wasn't planning on having the Chinese treasure fleet sail east until the mid-late 1520's when the fleet is finally completed after 20 years of off and on construction periods inbetween nomad wars and some social and economic shake-ups.

However, if you feel that it's too radical, I'd be more than happy to re-write it to make it become something along the lines of the emperor taking an interest in the old Zheng He records and expressing shock and outrage as to why Zheng He's exploratory and tributary missions were brought to an end, leading the emperor to state that he would "support the reconstruction of the Treasure Fleet entirely, should finances prove to be sufficient to support such an endeavor."

Does that sound a bit less, um, dramatic?

[AJNolte]

Is Columbus ITTL still convinced that he's reached India, or does he also realize that he's found a "new world"?


Given what England's been up to, I think he knows that it's a totally different place by now.

BTW: could people involved with any tribal groups in the Caribbean, northern South America and Central America PM me please? I'm trying to figure out what to do with Spanish colonialism. I'd also appreciate hearing from anyone in the southern cone...on a slightly different matter.

[Glen]

Given what England's been up to, I think he knows that it's a totally different place by now.

BTW: could people involved with any tribal groups in the Caribbean, northern South America and Central America PM me please? I'm trying to figure out what to do with Spanish colonialism. I'd also appreciate hearing from anyone in the southern cone...on a slightly different matter.

Actually, John Cabot still thinks he's found Asia, and that those Chinese just have to be a little further South.

We will learn the truth of it in this decade, of course.:D

[Smaug]

Given what England's been up to, I think he knows that it's a totally different place by now.

BTW: could people involved with any tribal groups in the Caribbean, northern South America and Central America PM me please? I'm trying to figure out what to do with Spanish colonialism. I'd also appreciate hearing from anyone in the southern cone...on a slightly different matter.

I'm very active in the area. Waiting for contact, so I can adjust to the severity of the conquista. Mind you, I'd rather survive, but I do want the time-line to be plausible.:)

[Keenir]

1502
The Ethiopians arrive in Eygpt.
They present the Caliph a large trapesty showing ships transversing the Nile Canal.

(ooc: if you're looking for the Mamluk Caliph, he's somewhere in North Africa (not sure where).........if you're looking for the Ottoman Caliph, he's in Constantinople....if you're looking for the Coptic Pope (or the guy appointed by the Coptic Pope), look in Cairo)

*snip* letter and audience withdrawn. my mistake.

[marl_d]

(ooc: if you're looking for the Mamluk Caliph, he's somewhere in North Africa (not sure where).........if you're looking for the Ottoman Caliph, he's in Constantinople....if you're looking for the Coptic Pope (or the guy appointed by the Coptic Pope), look in Cairo)



(ooc: I believe the phrase is "we are not amused") ;)


IC:
Ahmed, Caesar of the Roman Empire, Rex Islam, Sultan of the Ottomans, Caliph of the Faithful, Shadow of God on Earth, heir to the Prophet, sends for the leaders of the Ethiopian delegation, sending a letter to the lord of Ethiopia which says the same that he said to the delegation: "By what right do you call yourself a Byzantine Kingdom? I am both a legal and spiritual successor to the Roman Empire of Julius Caesar and Constantine I. I have been recognized in my title as such, by the Pope in Rome, the Grandmaster of the Knights of Rhodes, and their most Catholic Majesties of Spain.

"In addition, know that any Catholics in my realm who were dissatisfied with my reign, have already moved to the Kingdom of Jerusalem."

Having made that declaration, Emperor Ahmed allowed the Ethiopian delegation to leave the Empire.

OOC: i think he's referring to Orthodoxy Christian, not Catholic. as far as the Sultans claim for the successor of Rome, i think Ivan will have a bit to say about that. :cool:

[Keenir]

OOC: i think he's referring to Orthodoxy Christian, not Catholic. as far as the Sultans claim for the successor of Rome, i think Ivan will have a bit to say about that. :cool:

ooc: oh. in that case, I retract my post; thank you.
and as for Ivan's "bit to say", I await it eagerly. ;)

basically his logic will be like this: Rome never conquered Russia, nor had Russia as a client state. ergo, Russia can easily be an heir to Rome, but it cannot call itself a continuation of Rome.

[marl_d]

ooc: oh. in that case, I retract my post; thank you.
and as for Ivan's "bit to say", I await it eagerly. ;)

basically his logic will be like this: Rome never conquered Russia, nor had Russia as a client state. ergo, Russia can easily be an heir to Rome, but it cannot call itself a continuation of Rome.

OOC: yes, but Ivan is married to Constantine XI nice therefore has claim to the throne ;):cool: it'll either be tomorrow or thrusday before i get to Ivan's "bit to say" LOL

[Keenir]

OOC: yes, but Ivan is married to Constantine XI nice therefore has claim to the throne ;):cool:

oh. guess ya should've thrown in your lot with Selim...might've turned the tide of the war. (and then quietly disposed of Selim) :)

it'll either be tomorrow or thrusday before i get to Ivan's "bit to say" LOL

no rush.

[marl_d]

oh. guess ya should've thrown in your lot with Selim...might've turned the tide of the war. (and then quietly disposed of Selim) :)



no rush.

true true, but at the time i was more worried about Poland/Lithuania, I'm sure Ivan and/or his successors will think of something

[General_Paul]

1497: A Ryukyuan merchant fleet is forced ashore on Taiwan by bad weather, where they are forced to stay for several days after many of their ships are wrecked in the storm. The merchants attempt to trade with the local aborigines for the resources they need to repair their ships, but after apparently violating a local law some of the sailors are attacked by the locals and a violent skirmish ensues, ending with the slaughter of many of the sailors. Survivors flee in what ships can be salvaged and return to Ryukyu. Upon hearing of the news, Ryukyuan king Sho shin vows revenge.
He commissions an embassy to China requesting that Ming authorities bring the restless natives to justice.

1498: The emperor, upon hearing news of the restless natives of Formosa (Taiwan), sent his regards to the Ryukyuans and expressed great sorrow at their loss. He also heard their request to bring the restless natives to justice, and agreed that restless natives on Formosa would, perhaps, mean bad business for business owners who were beginning to apply for Imperial Business Compacts.

The emperor agreed to the Ryukyuan request, and declared that he would dispatch several ships laden with men and supplies in two years time, 1500, to bring the restless natives to justice who had so violently wronged his honorable neighbors in Ryuku. The two years gave him a cushion to prepare for conflict, something that he had not had to deal with for quite some time, as well as preparing the army for a period of perhaps extended conflict.

[Glen]

Please do not post any more events in this thread.

Post (and repost) events for 1500-1509 in the 'draft' thread.

Post (and repost) events from 1493-1499 in the 'retro' thread.