1493 Discussion [Archive] - Alternate History Discussion Board

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Glen

April 22nd, 2007, 01:32 PM

Here's an idea for a shared worlds timeline/game.

The idea is that we start at 1492, when Columbus discovered the New World. Each participant will take responsibility for at least one nation of the time.

Your mission is to shepherd your nation(s) through the Age of Discovery and then Imperialism.

A couple proposed rules -

First, in the first several years, you must be true to the historical figures and cultures of your nation(s). At the beginning, all nations must be real OTL nations. You can slowly through multiple small but realistic PODs change your nation's policy, goals, capabilities, even national character. You are in charge of the actions of the people within your nation and its colonies (assuming they weren't conquered from another participant who you've agreed to have remain active, see below).

Second, if your nation is conquered utterly, you and the controller of the conqueror should work out whether you will continue to play a role in that land (insurgents, liberation groups, etc) or if you will claim a new nation that is not currently under another player.

Third, areas not claimed by a participant will go forward in a fashion similar to OTL until participant actions on them change their course. The reactions of such areas will be up to participant concensus, or where no concensus exists, the moderator(s). I (Glen) am one, and I suspect we might want more. If we have moderators in disagreement, I will be the final arbitrator.

Fourth, you need not keep your nation(s) in one piece to keep control of them. If you want to break up your nation in some civil war, then control the successor states, this is fine, so long as it is done in a plausible fashion.

Fifth, we will pick in rounds what nations people want, every 24 hours from the time I post a sign-up thread you may choose another 1492 nation to command. Note, you need not choose more than one, nor must all the nations be picked to control. Its just to make certain that there is a fair way for people to get their choices.

Sixth, you need not participate the entire time the project runs. Feel free to give away your nations to others, either some or all. Any nation abandoned (and we only ask that you inform us that you are doing so) will either be picked up by a participant or treated the way other non-participant controlled areas are. You may also ask for another participant to babysit your nation(s) if you know you will need an extended leave of absence. If you are unable to respond to actions in a 48 hour period, concensus where possible or a moderator where necessary will determine your actions, just like non-controlled nations. However, you will be sent a PM warning you before this happens (and someone should PM me before this happens, too).

I'm certain we can think of some more as time goes by, but that's the rough outline of the idea. It's sort of a shared worlds project similar to the XXth Century, but also a game where participants try to gain their goals for their nations during the course of history.

So, anyone interested?

Glen

April 29th, 2007, 03:58 AM

1493 Mar 15, Christopher Columbus returned to Spain, concluding his first voyage to the Western Hemisphere.
(AP, 3/15/97)(HN, 3/15/98)

1493 Apr 15, Columbus met with King Ferdinand and Isabella in Barcelona.
(MC, 4/15/02)

1493 May 1, Phillippus Paracelsus (d.1541), physician and alchemist, was born in Switzerland. He was christened as Philippus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim.
(HN, 5/1/98)(NH, 6/00, p.30,34)(MC, 5/1/02)

1493 May 3-1493 May 4, Pope Alexander VI issued 3 papal bulls that divided the discoveries of Columbus between Spain and Portugal. By the Bulls of May 3 and 4 he drew an imaginary line one hundred leagues west of the Cape Verde Islands. The May 4 Bull, “Inter Caetera,” was amended in Sep. granting Spain the right to hold lands to the “western regions and to India.”
(DAH, 1946, p.2)(www.kwabs.com/bull_of_1493.html)

1493 Aug 19, Maximilian succeeded his father Frederick III as Holy Roman Emperor. Frederick III of Innsbruck (77), German Emperor (1440-1493), died.
(HN, 8/19/98)(MC, 8/19/02)

1493 Sep 25, Christopher Columbus set sail from Cadiz, Spain, with a flotilla of 17 ships on his 2nd voyage to the Western Hemisphere. He was accompanied by 13 clerics; Alvarez Chanca, a physician who left valuable accounts of the voyage; Juan Ponce de Leon; Juan de la Cosa, a cartographer; and Columbus’s younger brother Bartholomew.
(AP, 9/25/97)(AM, 7/97, p.58)

1493 Oct 13, Christopher Columbus left the Canary Islands with 16 ships and over 1000 men on his 2nd voyage to the New World.
(http://tinyurl.com/dfzzk)(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v2.htm)

1493 Nov 3, Christopher Columbus discovered the Caribbee Isles (Dominica) during his second expedition. He and his crew of 1,500 built the town of La Isabela on the northern coast of the Dominican Republic. It was abandoned within 5 years due in part to poor relations with the Taino Indians. This area was part of the chiefdom of Higuey.
(AM, 7/97, p.54,60)(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v2.htm)

1493 Nov 4, Christopher Columbus discovered Guadeloupe during his second expedition.
(HN, 11/4/98)

1493 Nov 10, Christopher Columbus discovered Antigua during his second expedition.
(HN, 11/10/98)

1493 Nov 11, Columbus discovered Saba, North Leeward Islands (Netherland Antilles).
(WUD, 1994 p.1257)(MC, 11/11/01)

1493 Nov 12, Christopher Columbus discovered the island of Redonda during his second expedition. It was about 34 miles WSW of Antigua.
(www.redonda.org/redonda.html#1869)

1493 Nov 19, Christopher Columbus discovered Puerto Rico on his 2nd voyage. Juan Ponce de Leon was a member of Columbus’ crew.
(HT, 4/97, p.28)(MC, 11/19/01)

1493 Nov 22, Christopher Columbus arrived at Hispaniola.
(AM, 7/97, p.54,60)(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v2.htm)

1493 Nov 28, Christopher Columbus arrived La Navidad, Hispaniola. He found the fort burned and his men from the 1st voyage dead. According to the account of Guacanagari, the local chief who had befriended Columbus on the first voyage, the men at Navidad had fallen to arguing among themselves over women and gold.
(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v2.htm)

1493 Dec 8, Christopher Columbus and his crew of 1,500 built the town of La Isabela on the northern coast of the Dominican Republic. It was abandoned within 5 years due in part to poor relations with the Taino Indians. This area was part of the chiefdom of Higuey.
(AM, 7/97, p.54,60)(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v2.htm)

1493 The 600-page "World Chronicle" by physician Hartmann Schedel (1440-1513) was first published in Nuremburg. One copy is held at the Library of the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna, Austria. Anton Koberger, a Nuremberg publisher, published 2,500 copies of the "Nuremberg Chronicle" by Hartmann Schedel. It included woodcuts by Michael Wohlgemuth and Wilhelm Pleyenwurff.
(StuAus, April '95, p.49)(SFC, 3/1/02, p.D18)(www.newadvent.org/cathen/13525a.htm)

1493 Columbus landed a small herd of swine on the island of Cuba.
(ON, 4/01, p.4)
1493 Columbus named Montserrat after the monastery near Barcelona. He did not bother to land on the island.
(NH, Jul, p.20)
1493 Columbus sailed into St. Croix’s Salt River Bay.
(NG, Jan, 1968, C. Mitchell, p. 73)
1493 Columbus discovered a group of islands, now called the Virgin Islands, that he christened Las Once Mil Virgenes, in memory of St. Ursula and her 11,000 martyr virgins who were slaughtered by the Huns at Cologne in the 5th century.
(SFEC, 2/15/98, p.T8)

1493 Pavia’s pawn bank was founded. It was later absorbed by Italy’s Banca Regionale Europea.
(Econ, 5/27/06, p.73)

1493 In Russia after a major fire in Moscow, Ivan III forbade the construction of wooden buildings in the old city.
(AM, Jul/Aug ‘97 p.33)

1493-1519 Maximilian I (1459-1519), Holy Roman Emperor over this period.
(WUD, 1994, p.886)

1494 Jan 6, The 1st Roman Catholic Mass in the New World marked the official establishment of La Isabela.
(AM, 7/97, p.58)

1494 Jan 25, Ferdinand I (b.1423), cruel king of Naples, died. He was also called Don Ferrante and was the natural son of Alfonso V of Aragon.
(MC, 1/25/02)(Wikipedia)

1494 Jan, In the Dominican Republic there was a failed rebellion against Columbus. The revolt was organized by Bernal de Pisa, the royal accountant, who was unhappy with the poor return of gold. Pisa was jailed and several others were hanged.
(AM, 7/97, p.57,59)

1494 Feb 2, Columbus began the practice using Indians as slaves.
(HN, 2/2/01)

1494 Feb 20, Johan Friis, chancellor (Denmark, helped formed Lutheranism), was born.
(MC, 2/20/02)

1494 Apr 20, John Agricola, [Schneider], German theologian, prime minister, was born.
(MC, 4/20/02)

1494 Apr 24, Columbus departed Isabela, Hispaniola, with 3 ships in an effort to reach China, which he believed was nearby.
(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v2.htm)

1494 Apr 30, Christopher Columbus arrived at Cuba on his 2nd voyage to the Americas.
(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v2.htm)

1494 May 5, During his second voyage to the Western Hemisphere, Christopher Columbus first sighted Jamaica and commented on the daily rains. Columbus landed on the island of Jamaica, which he names Santa Gloria.
(NOHY, 3/90, p.183)(AP, 5/5/97)(HN, 5/5/98)

1494 May 13, Columbus found the natives on Jamaica hostile and left for Cuba.
(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v2.htm)

1494 May 25, Jacopo Pontormo (d.1557), Italian painter (Sepulture of Christ), was born. He represented what Vasari called the terza maniera, the third or modern manner of painting.
(WUD, 1994, p.1118)(WSJ, 10/29/96, p.A21)(SC, 5/25/02)

1494 Jun 7, Spain and Portugal divided the new lands they had discovered between themselves.
(HN, 6/7/98)

1494 Aug 11, Hans Memling (b.1435), German-born master of Flemish painting, died in Brugge.
(www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/memling/)

1494 Aug 20, Columbus returned to Hispaniola. He had confirmed that Jamaica was an island and failed to find a mainland.
(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v2.htm)

1494 Sep 12, Francois I of Valois-Angoulome, king of France (1515-47), was born.
(MC, 9/12/01)

1494 Nov 5, Hans Sachs, cobbler, poet, composer, was born in Nuremberg. He was also the prototype for Wagner's "Die Meistersinger."
(MC, 11/5/01)

1494 Nov 6, Suleiman I (d.1566), the Great, Ottoman sultan (1520-66), was born. Suleiman the Magnificent, ruler of the Ottoman Empire, was reported to have a harem of 2,000 women.
(WSJ, 1/11/99, p.R8)(MC, 11/6/01)

1494 Nov 8, Uprising against Piero de' Medici in Florence, Italy.
(MC, 11/8/01)

1494 Lodovico il Moro, the duke of Milan, commissioned Leonardo da Vinci to paint "The Last Supper" (Cenacolo).
(WSJ, 6/2/99, p.A24)

1494 Luca Pacioli, considered the father of accounting, published a book on bookkeeping.
(WSJ, 1/11/99, p.R55)

c1494 Father Ramon Pane wrote an account of the Taino religion at the request of Christopher Columbus.
(AM, 7/97, p.61)

1494 Carol Verardi in Basel published an illustrated report of the first expedition to the new world by Christopher Columbus.
(HNPD, 10/12/98)

1494 The earliest report of Scots making whiskey was made. [see 1495]
(WSJ, 1/11/99, p.R49)

1494 Piero Medici, son of Lorenzo and head of the Medici family, fled Florence in the face of a French invasion. Savonarola took the opportunity to lead Florence in restoring a representative government.
(WSJ, 7/10/98, p.W11)(Econ, 4/23/05, p.82)

1494-1547 In France the time of King Francois I. The stench along the Seine drove him from the Hotel des Tournelles. Cesspools and the guild that emptied them, the Maitres Fy-Fy, developed at this time.
(Hem., 3/97, p.132)

1494-1553 Francois Rabelais, French satirist: "If you wish to avoid seeing a fool you must first break your mirror." [see 1490, 1553]
(AP, 2/23/98)

1494-1576 Hans Sachs, German Meistersinger. He authored stories, songs, poems and dramatic works. He later became the central figure in Wagner’s Meistersinger.
(WUD, 1994 p.1258)(WSJ, 10/2/01, p.A17)

1495 Jan 28, Pope Alexander VI gave his son Cesare Borgia as hostage to Charles VIII of France.
(MC, 1/28/02)

1495 Feb 5, The 1st Lithuanian Russian war ended with the signing of a peace treaty in Moscow.
(LHC, 2/5/03)

1495 Mar 8, Juan de Dios, Portuguese-Spanish saint, founder (Brothers of Mercy), was born.
(MC, 3/8/02)

1495 Jun 1, The first written record of Scotch Whiskey appeared in the Exchequer Rolls of Scotland. Friar John Cor was the distiller. The later J&B brand stood for Justerini and Brooks. [see 1494]
(DTnet, 6/1/97)(SFEC,12/28/97, Z1 p.2)

1495 Nov 27, Scottish king James IV received Perkin Warbeck (21), a pretender to the English throne. James gave Warbeck, a Walloon, Lady Catherine Gordon in marriage.
(MC, 11/27/01)(PCh, 1992, p.160)

1495 Leonardo da Vinci sketched a design of a parachute.
(SFEC, 9/8/96, zone 1 p.6)

1495 The Taino Indians on Hispaniola staged an organized attack on the Spaniards, but it was easily crushed.
(AM, 7/97, p.59)

1495 In Korea King Yonsan-gun succeeded King Songjong. His reign was noted for his unscrupulous suppression of the literati. In 2005 the South Korean film industry produced “The King and the Clown.” It was based on the 15th century monarch and a troupe of entertainers invited to his court.
(www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/korea/history/early_choson_period.htm)(Econ, 2/18/06, p.44)

c1495 The 500-year-old body of a young Inca girl was found frozen near the summit of Mt. Ampato, Peru, by American archeologist Johan Reinhard in 1995. The girl was killed by a crushing blow to the head probably in a ritual sacrifice.
(SFC, 5/22/96, p.A8)

1495-1498 Leonardo da Vinci worked on "The Last Supper" in Milan under commission for Duke Ludovico Sforza. The 15 by 28 foot work was undergoing a 20 year restoration in 1998 by Dr. Pinin Brambilla Barcilon.
(SFEC, 4/12/98, Par p.4)

1496 Mar 5, English king Henry VII hired John Cabot (Giovanni Caboto) to explore.
(MC, 3/5/02)

1496 Mar 9, Jews were expelled from Carinthia, Austria.
(MC, 3/9/02)

1496 Mar 10, Christopher Columbus concluded his 2nd visit to the Western Hemisphere as he left Isabela, with 2 ships for Spain. He returned to Spain to ask for more support for his colony on Hispaniola.
(AM, 7/97, p.59)(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v2.htm)

1496 Mar 12, Jews were expelled from Syria.
(HN, 3/12/98)

1496 cApr, Bartolome Columbus moved the colony to a new settlement on the south coast, named Isabela La Nueva. It was established on the east bank of the Ozama River. Columbus established Santo Domingo in what is now the Dominican Republic.
(SFC, 5/17/96, p.A-14)(AM, 7/97, p.59)(SFEC, 2/14/99, p.T10)

1496 Dec 5, Jews were expelled from Portugal by order of King Manuel I.
(MC, 12/5/01)

1496 Juan de Flandes painted “Christ Calming the Storm,” a commission by Spain’s Queen Isabel.
(WSJ, 12/16/04, p.D8)

1496 The "Treatyse of Fyshynge wyth an Angle" by Dame Juliana Berner was published. It was the first book on fishing ever written. [see 1425]
(WSJ, 7/29/96, p.A11)

1496 La Laguna was founded on the island of Tenerife by Alonso Fernandez de Lugo, who conquered the Canary Islands for Spain. It served as Tenerife’s 1st. capital.
(SSFC, 4/16/06, p.F7)

1496 Banca del Monte was founded in Milan. It was later absorbed by Italy’s Banca Regionale Europea.
(Econ, 5/27/06, p.73)

1496-1497 Michelangelo sculpted "Bacchus," considered his first masterpiece.
(WSJ, 2/29/96, p.A-14)

1496-1498 Albrecht Durer made his woodcut "The Four Avenging Angels" from the Apocalypse.
(LSA, fall/96, p.23)

c1496-1544 Clement Marot, early vernacular French writer.

1497 Jan 6, Jews were expelled from Graz, Syria. [see Mar 12, 1496]
(MC, 1/6/02)

1497 Feb 7, Followers of the priest Girolamo Savonarola collected and publicly burned thousands of objects in Florence, Italy, on the Shrove Tuesday festival. Tom Wolfe's 1997 novel, “The Bonfire of the Vanities,” makes reference to the original event, but is not a retelling of the story.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonfire_of_the_Vanities)

1497 Feb 16, Philipp Melanchthon, German Protestant reformer (Augsburgse Confessie), was born.
(MC, 2/16/02)

1497 Mar 9, Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543), Polish astronomer, made the 1st recorded astronomical observation.
(WUD, 1994 p.322)(MC, 3/9/02)

1497 May 2, John Cabot departed for North America. [see Jun 24]
(MC, 5/2/02)

1497 May 10, Italian navigator Amerigo Vespucci left for his 1st voyage to New World.
(MC, 5/10/02)

1497 May 13, Pope Alexander VI excommunicated Girolamo Savonarola for heresy. In Florence the Dominican monk Girolamo Savonarola (1452-1498) had led the Feb 7 burning of musical instruments, books and priceless works of art. He preached against corruption in the Church and civil government.
(Hem., 4/97, p.53)(WUD, 1994, p.1672)(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola)

1497 Jun 24, Italian explorer John Cabot (1450-1498?), (aka Giovanni Caboto), on a voyage for England, landed in North America on what is now Newfoundland or the northern Cape Breton Island in Canada. He claimed the new land for King Henry VII. He documented the abundance of fish off the Grand Banks from Cape Cod to Labrador.
(NH, 5/96, p.59)(WUD, 1994, p.206)(AP, 6/24/97)(HN, 6/24/98)

1497 Jul 8, Vasco da Gama, Portuguese explorer, departed on a trip to India. He sailed from Lisbon enroute to Calicut, India. His journey took him around South Africa and opened the Far East to European trade and colonial expansion.
(V.D.-H.K.p.143)(WUD, 1994, p.1672)(www.indhistory.com/vasco-da-gama.html)

1497 Jul 22, Francesco Botticini (c52), Italian painter, died.
(MC, 7/22/02)

1497 Jul 26, "Edward IV's son" Perkin Warbeck's army landed in Cork.
(MC, 7/26/02)

1497 Aug 6, John Cabot returned to England after his first successful journey to the Labrador coast.
(HN, 8/6/98)

1497 Aug 10, John Cabot told King Henry VII of his trip to "Asia."
(MC, 8/10/02)

1497 Sep 7, Sailor Perkin Warbeck became [briefly] England’s King Richard I. Warbeck had invaded Cornwall after failing to find support in Ireland. He was soon forced to surrender and was imprisoned in the Tower of London.
(MC, 9/7/01)(PCh, 1992, p.161)

1497 Sep, Henry VII defeated the Cornishmen at Blackheath. An insurrection in Cornwall had developed over taxes to support English defenses against Scottish invasion forces.
(PCh, 1992, p.161)

1497 Nov 18, Vasco da Gama reached the Cape of Good Hope.
(MC, 11/18/01)

1497 Nov 22, Portuguese navigator Vasco da Gama rounded the Cape of Good Hope.
(MC, 11/22/01)

1497 Hans Holbein the Younger (d.1543), painter, was born in Augsburg, Bavaria.
(WSJ, 12/30/06, p.P10)(www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/holbein/)

1497 Sandro Botticelli painted "The Calumny." It showed King Midas with donkey ears.
(SFC, 10/7/03, p.D8)

1497 Portuguese Jews were forced to convert to Christianity and were known as "New Christians," though many continued to practice their original faith in secret.
(WSJ, 6/8/98, p.A21)

1497 In Scotland the Declaration of Education Act required children to go to school.
(SFEC, 12/27/98, Z1 p.8)

1498 Mar 2, Vasco da Gama's fleet visited Mozambique Island.
(SC, 3/2/02)

1498 Apr 7, A crowd stormed Savonarola's convent of San Marco in Florence, Italy.
(MC, 4/7/02)
1498 Apr 7, Vasco da Gama, Portuguese explorer, arrived at Mombasa, Kenya, where the Arabs repelled him. He sailed on to Malindi and came to terms with the local sultan, who supplied a pilot that knew the route to Calicut (Kozhikode), the most important commercial port in Southwest India at the time.
(Econ, 9/30/06, p.58)(www.kenyalogy.com/eng/info/histo4.html)

1498 Apr 8, Charles VIII (27), King of France (1483-98), died while preparing a new expedition to invade Italy. He was succeeded by his Valois cousin the Duc d’Orleans (36), who reigned until 1515 as Louis XII.
(PC, 1992 ed, p.161)

1498 May 20, Portuguese explorer Vasco da Gama arrived at Calicut (Kozhikkode) in Kerala, India.
(www.indhistory.com/vasco-da-gama.html)

1498 May 23, The body of Girolamo Savonarola (45), moral scourge of Florence (1494-98), was burned along with 2 Dominican companions. An enraged crowd burned the previously hanged body of Savonarola at the same spot where he had ordered cultural works burned the year before. In 2006 Lauro Martines authored “Fire in the City,” an account of Savonarola’s life.
(WUD, 1994, p.1672)(www.historyguide.org/intellect/savonarola.html)(WSJ, 5/19/06, p.W6)

1498 May 30, Columbus departed Spain with 6 ships for his 3rd trip to America. He took 30 women along on his third trip to the New World.
(V.D.-H.K.p.143)(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v3.htm)

1498 May, Vasco da Gama reached Calicut, the chief Indian trading port , at 11? north latitude. He was not welcomed by the Muslim traders who saw him as a Christian and competitor. He returned to Lisbon swearing revenge.
(V.D.-H.K.p.174)

1498 Jun 21, Jews were expelled from Nuremberg, Bavaria, by Emperor Maximillian.
(MC, 6/21/02)

1498 Jun 26, Toothbrush was invented. In China the first toothbrushes with hog bristles began to show up. Hog bristle brushes remained the best until the invention of nylon.
(SFC, 6/6/98, p.E3)(MC, 6/26/02)

1498 Jul 31, During his third voyage to the Western Hemisphere, Christopher Columbus arrived at an island he named Trinidad because of its 3 hills.
(AP, 7/31/98)(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v3.htm)

1498 Aug 4-1498 Aug 12, Christopher Columbus explored the Gulf of Paria (Venezuela) between Trinidad and South America.
(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v3.htm)

1498 Aug 14, Columbus landed at the mouth of the Orinoco River in Venezuela.
(MC, 8/14/02)

1498 Aug 16, Christopher Columbus reached the island of Margarita (Venezuela).
(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v3.htm)

1498 Sep 16, Tomas de Torquemada, notorious for his role in the Spanish Inquisition, died in Avila, Spain.
(AP, 9/16/06)

1498 Albrecht Durer made his woodcut titled "The Bath House."
(WSJ, 10/29/99, p.W1)

1498 The Vienna Boys School and Choir was founded by Emp. Maximilian I.
(SFC, 12/3/97, p.C5)

1498 The Shore Porters’ Society was founded as a semi-public body controlled by the town of Aberdeen, Scotland.
(Econ, 12/18/04, p.104)

1498 Niccolo Machiavelli began working as a diplomat for the city-state of Florence. His employment ended in 1512 when he was dismissed by Giuliano de Medici.
(ON, 11/04, p.3)

1498 Columbus sailed by Grenada and named the island Concepcion.
(www.geographia.com/grenada/gdhis01.htm)

1498 The first pawnshop reportedly opened in Nuremberg, Germany.
(SFEC, 2/22/98, Z1 p.8)

1499 Mar 31, Pius IV (Gianangelo de' Medici), Italian lawyer, pope (1559-65), was born.
(MC, 3/31/02)

1499 Aug 25, Battle at Sapienza: An Ottoman fleet beat Venetians.
(chblue.com, 8/25/01)

1499 Sep 10, The French marched on Milan.
(Hem., 12/96, p.19)

1499 Nov 12, Perkin Warbeck, Flemish sailor, was hanged for conspiring to escape from the tower of London with the imprisoned earl of Warwick. [see Nov 23]
(PCh, 1992, p.162)

1499 Nov 23, Perkin Warbeck, Flemish sailor, was hanged. [see Nov 12]
(MC, 11/23/01)(AP, 11/23/02)

1499 Nov 28, Edward Plantagenet, 18th Count of Warwick, was beheaded.
(MC, 11/28/01)

1499 Michelangelo completed his "Pieta" for the Vatican. The marble was from Carrara.
(www.abcgallery.com/)(WSJ, 8/1/05, p.D10)

1499 The Spanish play "Celestine" was published.
(WSJ, 11/19/98, p.A21)

1499 Anne of Brittany initiated the white wedding gown.
(SFEM, 6/28/98, p.7)

1500 Jan 26, Spanish explorer Vicente Yanez Pinzon reached the northeastern coast of Brazil during a voyage under his command. Pinzon had commanded the Nina during Christopher Columbus's first expedition to the New World.
(MC, 1/26/02)

1500 Feb 24, Charles V, king of Spain (1516-1556), was born in Ghent, Belgium. He was the last Holy Roman Emperor to be crowned by the Pope.
(HN, 2/24/99)(SFEC, 11/21/99, p.T10)(MC, 2/24/02)

1500 Mar 9, Pedro Cabral (1460-1520), Portuguese navigator, departed to India. He left Lisbon with 13 ships headed for India and was blown off course.
(WUD, 1994 p.206)(SFC, 4/20/00, p.A14)(MC, 3/9/02)

1500 Apr 8, Battle at Novara: King Louis XII beat duke Ludovico Sforza (Il Sforza del Destino).
(MC, 4/8/02)

1500 Apr 10, France captured duke Ludovico Sforza ("Il Sforza del Destino") of Milan.
(MC, 4/10/02)

1500 Apr 11, Michael T. Marullus, Greeks poet, drowned.
(MC, 4/11/02)

1500 Apr 22, Pedro Alvares Cabral (c1460-c1526), Portuguese explorer, discovered Brazil and claimed it for Portugal. He anchored for 10 days in a bay he called "Porto Seguro" and continued on to India. [see Apr 23]
(WUD,1994, p.206)(AHD, p.185)(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)(HN, 4/22/98)(SFC, 4/20/00, p.A14)

1500 Apr 23, Pedro Cabal landed at Terra da Vera Cruz and claimed Brazil for Portugal. The native population was later estimated to have been from 1 to 11 million people. [see Apr 22]
(SFC, 7/6/98, p.A10)(HN, 4/23/99)(MC, 4/23/02)

1500 May 29, Bartholomeu Diaz de Narvaez (Novaez), Portuguese sea explorer, drowned.
(SC, 5/29/02)

1500 Aug 10, Diego Diaz discovered Madagascar.
(MC, 8/10/02)

1500 Oct, Governor De Bobadilla of Santo Domingo captured Christopher Columbus and returned him in shackles to Spain. Columbus, during his third sojourn to the new world, engaged in a dispute with the ambassador plenipotentiary to Santo Domingo, Hispaniola (later shared by Haiti and the Dominican Republic). Columbus was later released and forgiven by the Queen.
(V.D.-H.K.p.143)(SFEC, 3/15/98, Z1 p.8)(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v2.htm)

1500 Nov 1, Benvunuto Cellini (d.1571), Italian goldsmith and sculptor, was born. His 1545 autobiography greatly influenced the Renaissance.
(HN, 11/1/00)(WSJ, 2/14/00, p.A20)

1500 Pietro Torrigiani created his sculpture "Virgin and Child."
(WSJ, 1/29/02, p.A18)

1500 Giovanni Bellini painted "The Pieta" and "Portrait of a Young Man."
(SFEC, 12/26/99, p.C17)

1500 Herri met de Bles, Flemish oil painter, created "Landscape With Burning City."
(WSJ, 9/8/00, p.W8)

1500 Sandro Botticelli, Italian painter, painted his "Mystic Nativity," but he was out of key with public taste. His reputation was only restored in the 19th century. He also did the circular painting "Adoration of the Christ Child."
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)(WSJ, 12/30/97, p.A8)

1500 Desiderius Erasmus, Dutch humanist scholar, published his "Adagia."
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1500 During the first half century of printing 1450-1500, the majority of printed books were renderings of Greek and Latin works, previously available only in manuscripts... From this point on, published works in the national languages... were in the majority.
(V.D.-H.K.p.143)

1500 Antwerp Cathedral was completed after 148 years of construction.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1500 Pope Alexander VI proclaimed a Year of Jubilee with a call for a crusade against the Turks.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1500 Aldus Manutius, Italian printer, founded the Venice Academy for the study of Greek classics and he invented Italic type.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1500 Valencia University was founded.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1500 The Diet of Augsburg established a Council of Regency to administer the Holy Roman Empire.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1500 King Louis XII of France captured Milan in the Italian Wars.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1500 Nueva Cadiz was established on Isla de Cubagua off the coast of Venezuela after Columbus discovered rich pearl oyster beds nearby.
(SSFC, 2/19/06, p.F8)

1500 The population of the world at about 400 million was distributed as follows:
China, Japan, and Korea 130 million
Europe and Russia 100 million
India subcontinent 70 million
Southeast Asia and Indonesia 40 million
Central and western Asia 25 million
Africa 20 million
The Americas 15 million
(V.D.-H.K.p.168)

c1500 In northern Argentina 3 Inca children were sacrificed. In 1999 a team of archeologists discovered their frozen mummies on Mount Llullaillaco.
(SFC, 4/7/99, p.A11)

c1500 At the end of the 15th century Azerbaijan became the power base of a native dynasty, the Safavids. They established an empire that dominated Iran in the 16th and 17th centuries..
(CO, Grolier’s Amer. Acad. Enc./ Azerbaijan)

c1500 Lake Cauhilla in southern California, the predecessor to the Salton Sea, measured 50 by 100 miles and began evaporating.
(SFC, 11/30/98, p.A22)

1500s The Aztecs played ollamalitzli. The game placed a rubber ball through a stone ring and the loser was often beheaded.
(WSJ, 1/11/99, p.R34)

1500s The Navajo began settling on Hopi land. They have farmed in the southwest since this time.
(SFC, 7/15/96, p.A1)(SFC, 1/3/97, p.A26)

1500s Europe began to restrict the practice of medicine to qualified doctors.
(WSJ, 1/11/99, p.R25)

1500s Holland and Saxony began to protect the rights of inventors to their creations.
(WSJ, 1/11/99, p.R14)

1500s Juan de Bermudez of Spain first reported on the island of Bermuda.
(SFC, 5/2/98, p.E4)

1500s The popularity of surströmming, a Swedish fermented herring with a noxious stench, surged in the early 1500s and again in the early 1700s.
(WSJ, 8/13/02, p.A1)

1500s Monomutapa (Zimbabwe) was split in two with the northern half remaining Monomutapa, and a southern half under the rival dynasty of Changamire.
(ATC, p.148)

1500s Portugal settled the island of Sao Tome, 250 miles off the coast of Kongo. Most of the settlers were criminals deported from Portugal. Sugar began to be grown on Sao Tome and slaves were purchased from King Affonso. The Portuguese and Africans did not see slavery the same way. To the Portuguese the slaves were beasts of burden and worked so hard that many died. They then bought more.
(ATC, p.152)

1500s Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May and were still smelling pretty good by June. However, they were starting to smell, so brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the body odor.
Baths equaled a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children. Last of all the babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually loose someone in it. Hence the saying, "Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water".
Houses had thatched roofs. Thick straw, piled high, with no wood underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the pets... dogs, cats and other small animals, mice, rats, bugs lived in the roof. When it rained it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof. Hence the saying, "It’s raining cats and dogs,"
There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could really mess up your nice clean bed. So, they found if they made beds with big posts and hung a sheet over the top, it addressed that problem. Hence those beautiful big 4 poster beds with canopies.
The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt. Hence the saying "dirt poor".
The wealthy had slate floors which would get slippery in the winter when wet. So they spread thresh on the floor to help keep their footing. As the winter wore on they kept adding more thresh until when you opened the door it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed at the entry way, hence a "thresh hold".
They cooked in the kitchen with a big kettle that always hung over the fire. Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot. They mostly ate vegetables and didn’t get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the next day. Sometimes the stew had food in it that had been in there for a month. Hence the rhyme: peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old."
Sometimes they could obtain pork and would feel really special when that happened. When company came over, they would bring out some bacon and hang it to show it off. It was a sign of wealth and that a man "could really bring home the bacon."
They would cut off a little to share with guests and would all sit around and "chew the fat."
Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with a high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food. This happened most often with tomatoes, so they stopped eating tomatoes... for 400 years.
Most people didn’t have pewter plates, but had trenchers - a piece of wood with the middle scooped out like a bowl. Trencher were never washed and a lot of times worms got into the wood. After eating off wormy trenchers, they would get "trench mouth."
Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom of the loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or the "upper crust".
Lead cups were used to drink ale or whiskey. The combination would sometimes knock them out for a couple of days. Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial. They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up. Hence the custom of holding a "wake".
England is old and small and they started running out of places to bury people. So, they would dig up coffins and would take their bones to a house and re-use the grave. In reopening these coffins, one out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside and they realized they had been burying people alive. So they thought they would tie a string on their wrist and lead it through the coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night to listen for the bell. Hence on the "graveyard shift" they would know that someone was "saved by the bell" or he was a "dead ringer".
(e-mail, Riddiough, 5/14/99)

1500-1600 "Hsi Yu Chi" was a 16th century Chinese novel based on the account of a 7th century monk, Tripitaka, who traveled to India for 16 years for Buddhist scriptures.
(SFC, 12/7/96, p.D1)

1500-1600 "The Boke of Hawkynge and Huntynge and Fysshynge" was produced. A copy sold for $88,000 in 2000.
(SFC, 6/2/00, p.A21)

c1500-1600 George Pencz, 16th century German artist. His work included "Holy Trinity, Seat of Mercy."
(SFC, 9/29/01, p.B1)
1500-1600 Weimar became the capital of the duchy of Saxe-Weimar.
(SSFC, 8/1/04, p.D10)

1500-1600 Yi Am, 16th cent. Korean artist. The artist’s work included: "Puppies, Birds and Blossoms."
(WSJ, 8/10/98, p.A12)

c1500-1600 The 16th century French text "The Rules of Civility" was published.
(SFC, 7/4/02, p.D1)

1500-1600 The first Russian book printed was the 15th century "Apostle."
(SFC, 12/27/96, p.C16)

1500-1600 The Kalmyk people, descendants from the Golden Horde of Genghis Khan, settled in the lowlands between the Volga and Don rivers with their livestock.
(SFC, 9/24/97, p.A12)

c1500-1600 In Honduras the Lenca Indian chieftain Lempira withdrew to the high mountains to lead resistance against the Spaniards. According to legend he plunged to his death from a rocky outcrop near the summit of the highest peak. The Indians developed the Quezungal method of farming, where crops were planted under trees that kept hillsides from eroding.
(SFC, 11/18/98, p.A14)

c1500-1600 Giulio Cesare Aranzi, Italian anatomist, name the hippocampus formation of the brain because of its resemblance to Hippocampus, the seahorse.
(NH, 9/97, p.56)

c1500-1600 Scotsman Rob Roy was forced to become a highland fugitive.
(SFC, 8/19/96, p.D7)

c1500-1600 The Predjama Castle was built at the mouth of a huge cave at Postojna, Slovenia. It was later used by the highway robber Erasmus Luegger.
(SSFC, 8/18/02, p.C7)

c1500-1600 A Muslim pilgrim stole coffee beans from Yemen and raised them in India. Yemen was the first great coffee exporter and in order to protect its trade had decreed that no living plant could leave the country.
(WSJ, 6/4/99, p.W9)

1500-1650 Period of late Renaissance.
(V.D.-H.K.p.143)

c1500-1800 In Nepal the Malla dynasty created an architectural frenzy in Patan between the 16th and 18th centuries.
(WSJ, 1/22/98, p.A17)

1500-1800 Ottoman Turk rule extended over Libya.
(SSFC, 6/27/04, p.D12)

c1500s-1800s Millions of Africans were torn from their homelands, herded into ships and sold in the New World for more than 300 years. Perhaps the cruelest part of the Atlantic slave trade was the weeks-long sea crossing, or the so-called Middle Passage--that leg of the Triangular Trade that brought the human cargo from West Africa to New World ports. Rather than provide healthful conditions on the sea crossing, slave traders sought to maximize profits with "tight packing"--cramming so many slaves onto the lower decks that those that survived would compensate for the certain losses. The British slave ship Brookes' deck plan shows the ship carrying 454 slaves with 6'x 1'4" of space allowed for each adult male, 5'10" x 11" for each woman and 5' x 1'2" for each boy. This clinical representation of human suffering during the Middle Passage was widely circulated by abolitionist groups.
(HNPD, 12/14/98)

1500-1820 The proto-capitalist epoch. The world GDP grew by .07% per year.
(WSJ, 1/11/99, p.R54)

1501 Mar 1, Lithuania and Livonia established a 10-year union for protection against Russia.
(LHC, 3/1/03)

1501 Mar 20, Jean Carondelet (72), lawyer, chancellor of Burgundy (1480-96), died.
(MC, 3/20/02)

1501 May 20, Joao da Nova Castell discovered the Ascension Islands.
(MC, 5/20/02)

1501 Jul 27, Copernicus was formally installed as canon of Frauenberg Cathedral.
(MC, 7/27/02)

1501 Sep 24, Gerolamo Cardano, mathematician, was born. He authored "Games of Chance," the first systematic computation of probabilities.
(HN, 9/24/00)

1501 Oct 15, English crown prince Arthur married Catharina of Aragon. [see Nov 14]
(MC, 10/15/01)

1501 Nov 14, Arthur Tudor married Katherine of Aragon. [see Oct 15]
(HN, 11/14/98)

1501 Michelangelo was commissioned by Florence, his native home, to carve the colossal statue "David." The work had been by Agostino di Duccio around 1465. Michelangelo finished it in 1504. It was placed at the front of the Palazzo Signoria. In 1873 it was cleaned and moved indoors.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)(WSJ, 4/29/03, D5)

1501 Books printed before 1501 are called incunabula or incunables, after the Latin word for cradle. The 15th century was the cradle of printing.
(WSJ, 9/14/00, p.A24)

1501 France and Spain occupied Naples, and French troops entered Rome. Louis XII was declared King of Naples by the Pope.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1501 Cesare Borgia captured Romagna (north-central Italy) and appointed Remirro de Orco, his cruelest lieutenant, to pacify the region. After the job was done Borgia had Orco cut in two to gain the gratitude of the people.
(WSJ, 6/22/98, p.A20)

1501 Maximilian I, German emperor, recognized the French conquests of northern Italy in the Peace of Trent.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1501 A worn Roman torso was unearthed in Rome. It later acquired the nickname "Pasquino" and served as a station for posting complaints and opinions that came to be known as Pasquinades.
(WSJ, 12/31/01, p.A6)

1501 The Turks took Durazzo from Venice.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1501 Ivan III, Czar of Russia, invaded Lithuania.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1501 Gaspar de Corte-Real, Portuguese navigator, made the first authenticated European landing on the northern continent of the Western Hemisphere since c1000AD.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1501 Amerigo Vespucci, Florentine navigator, explored the coast of Brazil on his second voyage to the New World.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1501 The Anglo-Portuguese Syndicate completed the first of five voyages to Newfoundland.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1502 Jan 1, Portuguese navigator Pedro Cabral and Amerigo Vespucci sailed the into the harbor of Rio de Janeiro. Portuguese explorers sailed into Guanabra Bay and mistook it for the mouth of a river which they named Rio de Janeiro.
(Hem., Dec. '95, p.129)(MC, 1/1/02)

1502 Feb 12, Vasco da Gama, Portuguese explorer, departed on a second trip to India with 20 well-armed ships.
(www.indhistory.com/vasco-da-gama.html)
1502 Feb 12, Isabella issued a royal order giving all remaining Moors in the realms of Castile the choice between baptism and expulsion.
(www.cyberistan.org/islamic/beyond1492.html)

1502 Apr 2, Arthur, English crown prince, husband of Catharina of Aragon, died.
(MC, 4/2/02)

1502 May 9, Christopher Columbus left Cadiz, Spain, on his fourth and final trip to the Western Hemisphere. He explored Central America, and discovered St. Lucia, the Isthmus of Panama, Honduras, and Costa Rica. Columbus left 52 Jewish families in Costa Rica. [see May 11]
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)(AP, 5/9/97)(WSJ, 6/15/00, p.A1)

1502 May 11, Columbus embarked on his 4th voyage with 150 men in 4 caravels. Among those in the fleet were Columbus's brother Bartholomew, and Columbus' younger son Fernando, then just 13 years old. They reached the coast of Honduras after 8 months and passed south to Panama (1503). The ships included the Capitana, which served as the flagship, and the Vizcaina. In 2006 Klaus Brinkbaumer authored “The Voyage of the Vizcaina.”
(WSJ, 1/11/99, p.R49)(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v4.htm)(WSJ, 5/26/06, p.W5)

1502 Jun 6, Jofo III, King of Portugal (1521-57), was born.
(MC, 6/6/02)

1502 Jun 7, Pope Gregory XIII was born. He introduced the Gregorian calendar in 1582. [see 1552]
(HN, 6/7/98)(SFEC, 2/20/00, Par p.7)

1502 Jun 29, Christopher Columbus arrived at Santo Domingo, Hispaniola, on his 4th voyage to the new world. He requested harbor and advised Gov. Nicolas de Ovando of an approaching hurricane. Ovando denied the request and dispatched a treasure fleet to Spain. 20 ships sank in the storm, 9 returned to port and one made it to Spain.
(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v4.htm)

1502 Jul, Columbus reached the coast of Honduras during his 4th voyage and passed south to Panama.
(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v4.htm)

1502 Sep 18, Christopher Columbus landed at Costa Rica during his 4th and last voyage. Columbus left 52 Jewish families in Costa Rica.
(MC, 9/18/01)(WSJ, 6/15/00, p.A1)

1502 Dec 31, Cesare Borgia (son of Pope Alexander VI) occupied Urbino.
(MC, 12/31/01)

1502 Donato Bramante began the Tempietto of S. Pietro in Montorio, Rome.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1502 Vittore Carpaccio began the fresco cycle "Scenes from the Lives of SS George and Jerome." Full of light and detail, it is typical of the Venetian manner.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1502 Lucas Cranch, German painter, began his career in Vienna. In 1521 he painted the famous portrait of Martin Luther.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1502 Leonardo da Vinci drew plans for a 720-foot stone span across the Golden Horn at the mouth of the Bosporus. In 2001 Vebjorn Sand, Norwegian artist, completed a 330-foot, laminated timber bridge linking Norway and Sweden at Aas, 16 miles south of Oslo based on the da Vinci plans.
(SSFC, 12/9/01, p.C2)

1502 Vasco da Gama founded the Portuguese colony at Cochin, China.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1502 Shah Ismail founded the Safavid Dynasty in Persia.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1502 Amerigo Vespucci declared that South America is a separate continent after his second voyage.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1502 A hurricane nearly destroyed La Nueva Isabela and it was abandoned. The city was rebuilt on the other side of the river as Santo Domingo by the new governor, Nicholas de Ovando.
(AM, 7/97, p.59)

1502 Vasco da Gama returned to Calicut, India. He bombarded the town, burned a ship full of Arab men, women, and children because its captain had offended him, and demanded that the Muslims turn over the trade to the Portuguese. Within a generation his demands were met.
(V.D.-H.K.p.174)

1502 Portuguese traders took peanuts from Brazil and Peru to Africa.
(SFEC, 1/10/99, Z1 p.8)

1502 Jaoa de Nova, Portuguese explorer, discovered St. Helena Island.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1502 Montezuma Xocoyotl (Montezuma II), an Aztec prince, inherited the Aztec throne.
(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)(ON, 10/00, p.1)

1502 In Germany Peter Henlein of Nuremberg used iron parts and coiled springs to build a portable timepiece.
(WSJ, 1/11/99, p.R14)

1502 In Germany Wittenberg University was founded.
(Voruta #27-28, Jul 1996, p.10)(TL-MB, 1988, p.8)

1502 Spain legalized slave shipments to the Americas.
(WSJ, 1/11/99, p.R49)

1502-1533 Atahualpa, emperor of the Incas. He had a fortune in gold and silver and tried to purchase his freedom from Pizarro for a chamber filled with gold. Pizarro took 124 tons of gold in ransom and then re-arrested Atahualpa for treason to the Spanish crown and had him decapitated.
(WSJ, 1/11/99, p.R8)

1503 Jan 9, Christopher Columbus returned to the mouth of Rio Belen (western Panama), where he built a garrison.
(http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/v4.htm)

1503 Feb 11, Elizabeth of York, Consort of King Henry VII, died on 38th birthday.
(MC, 2/11/02)

1503 Mar 10, Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor (1558-1564), was born. He was King of Bohemia and Hungary from 1526-1564.
(HN, 3/10/01)(WUD, 1994 p.523)

Glen

April 29th, 2007, 01:24 PM

1493 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1493)

1494 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1494)

1495 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1495)

1496 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1496)

1497 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1497)

1498 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1498)

1499 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1499)

1500 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1500)

1501 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1501)

1502 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1502)

Glen

May 11th, 2007, 12:49 AM

For current discussion of the 1493 project.

Tom Veil

May 11th, 2007, 01:17 PM

Could I take them then?
Yes, you could take them, if you could name them. :) This game is going to demand more research than some of the other games, and a good first step is reading over Glen's latest list of which nations are claimed and figuring out where the "holes" are. Once you find a hole (and I promise you, there's a couple good ones!), see if you can google around and find the basics -- the rulers, the names of the big towns, etc. If you can, go ahead and claim it. If you need help researching a nation, just ask; the veterans are seeming pretty friendly lately. ;)

Tynnin

May 11th, 2007, 10:23 PM

Glen

May 11th, 2007, 10:32 PM

I just wanted to say I love threads like this; would have liked to have gotten in on it but with my schedule I’d only have an entry every two or three weeks. So, good luck to everyone and I look forward to reading.

Thanks for the support. One way you can help is by dropping in from time to time and helping critique the latest candidate entries.

DuQuense

May 12th, 2007, 12:31 AM

International Affairs, for those events that involve more than one participant and thus needs some collaboration or moderation.

Domestic Affairs, for those events that take place entirely within ones own area of control, and thus only needs to be plausible.

Science and Technology, pretty much self explanatory in this context.

maybe a Fourth-- HRE internal affairs

Tom Veil

May 12th, 2007, 12:52 AM

I'd like to jump the gun and post a draft of the TL that I'm working on for my North American nations. I just want to get some preliminary comments to see if my pacing, research, and style of writing are all on track. I think that everything is justified, but it's also a little aggressive (b/c the Iroquois happened to beat the stuffing out of their enemies in the 1480s and 1490s, emptying out a ton of land), so I wanted to get comments now so I have time to refine it. Some of my research is based on books, but I've tried to include links to some of the more obscure specifics.

April 1493: The Seneca send out scouting parties to found new villages in the fertile lands to the south that have been abandoned after the recent wars. They set up a string of tiny farming communities at Kinzua Rapids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinzua_Dam).
June 1493: The Susquehanna get word of the Seneca’s expansion and send out their own scouts. They will eventually set up several small fishing and trading posts along the Juniata River (http://www.rootsweb.com/~paperry/perry_indians.htm), pushing the crippled remnants of the Onojutta onto even more marginal land.
December 1493: A bitter winter forces some Cayuga and Onondaga villages to head further south than usual in their search for game, into the lands of the weak Wyoming Tribe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_Valley). Hiawatha is disturbed, not only because this abuses the last peace treaty with the Wyomings, but also because it may provoke the Susquehanna, whom he calls the “warm blood brothers” of the Haudenosaunee.
February 1494: Hiawatha calls a Grand Council of All Iroquois Peoples. Stunned by this unprecedented request from the ageing spiritual giant, virtually all of the tribes pledge to show up, including such far-flung bands as the Cherokee, Nottoway (http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/iroquioi/nottowayhist.htm), Meherrin (http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/iroquioi/meherrinhist.htm), Tuscarora, Erie, Attawandaron, Susquehanna, and the various Laurentian tribes.
October 1494: The Grand Council of All Iroquois Peoples meets at the Onondaga Council Fire. Hiawatha announces his intention that all Iroquoians should band together into once colossal council. The more distant Iroquoians find this concept preposterous, and it is voted down. Famously, Hiawatha then smiles and says, “it is you who have voted.” While few understand the remark at the time, it would become clear in the decades to pass that in Hiawatha’s eyes, those who voted against the union had in fact given the union credence by submitting to the voting procedures of the Grand Council.
December 1494: The tiny Stadacona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadacona) and Hochelega (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochelega_%28village%29) join the Haudenosaunee. They are the only ones to accept Hiawatha’s call to join. The Susquehanna, however, agree to sit a diplomat at the Haudenosaunee Council Fire. This is enough that the Councilors who doubted Hiawatha acknowledge that the Grand Council was a huge success.
January 1495: The Grand Council having highlighted the great distances that separate the various tribes, the Haudenosaunee vote to construct new roads connecting the Seven Nations and their neighbors.
April 1495: Construction begins on Great Peacemaker Road. It will run a north-south (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_87) from Stadacona to southern Mohawk lands, and then broaden and improve the existing east-west (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Thruway) route connecting the Five Nations.
March 1496: The race to settle the empty lands heats up as the Erie begin an ambitious new settlement, Mahonik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youngstown,_Ohio#History). With 1,000 adults, it is the largest of the new settlements.
December 1496: As the builders head to their hunting camps for the winter, the Stadacona and Mohawk are proud to have a crude path blazed all the way to each other’s border villages. They will begin laying down logs and gravel (http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0813526914&id=flvS-nJga8QC&pg=PR3&lpg=PR3&ots=DvEHtwROGm&dq=%22Ways+of+the+world%22+Rutgers+University+Pres s,+New+Brunswick&sig=tK2dgY-CJ8S2DSeTaMJKKi82Uew#PPP1,M1) after the next planting season.
February 1497: Although it taxes their economy, the Susquehanna begin to make a show of strength and expand the trails along the Susquehanna River and up into Haudenosaunee and Wyoming lands. Only a few years ago, the Haudenosaunee Council would have interpreted this as a threat, but in light of recent events, they see that the Susquehanna are silently signaling that they are ready to go in for the kill and split the lands between their two nations.

Glen

May 12th, 2007, 02:03 AM

Tom, couple thoughts/comments.

Who precisely is this Hiawatha supposed to be? That name has been attributed to a few through history.

Also, the Cherokee from everything I can see are united only by language and trade at this point, so it would be unlikely that 'the Cherokee' would come to this meeting. You'd probably get the borderers to Iroquis Confederacy area, but not most of the Cherokee speaking peoples.

Tom Veil

May 12th, 2007, 03:30 AM

By Hiawatha I mean Onondaga Council representative Hayę́hwàtha, not the fictional character from the Longfellow poems. The scholars appear to be in general agreement that Hiawatha was real, was born between 1300-1600, and that his big acheivement was taking an existing Iroquois state and giving it its expansionist, organized character, but beyond that it's unclear because he was dead and heavily mythologized by the time that white people started writing down his story in the 1660s. I've decided to make his birthdate 1432, a fairly likely estimate that has the advantage of making him an extremely old man, and therefore more likely to be humored with his more idealistic schemes like the Grand Council. One of the big events in this TL will be his funeral, probably in 1499.

As for the Cherokee -- I'll admit that I haven't done much research on them, as it'll be several decades before they're having more than token contact with their brothers 500 miles to the north. On your advice, I will revise the Grand Council to reflect their disunited state.

Glen

May 12th, 2007, 03:51 AM

The Sicilian

May 12th, 2007, 03:53 AM

Good TL Tom. I live in the Finger Lakes region, so I may be of assistance in terms of geography/climate.

Analytical Engine

May 12th, 2007, 09:56 AM

Glen

May 12th, 2007, 01:17 PM

Ok, just to let you know - my internet access is going to be rather intermittent over the next week and a half, since I have exams. I will try and post as often as I can, however.

My exams finish on the 23rd, so from then on, I'll be ok.

Why don't you go ahead and start working on your events for 1493-9? You may post them here early if you need to.

Glen

May 12th, 2007, 01:22 PM

I propose that for the first week, we actually focus on events from 1493-1499. Then the rest of the weeks will be a decade a week.

Also, if people know that they will be unavailable for the coming week, they can post their events early, though they won't become official until the rest would, and are subject to change should they have plausibility/conflicts.

I would also like to have people write summaries for the major events of each decade, to complement the more detailed entries. And we will also write summaries for each century.

Glen

May 12th, 2007, 01:27 PM

Tom,

I was thinking further, and I think we can keep your events, including Hiawatha, pretty much as is (with the watering down of the Cherokee tribes, of course). All we need to do is couch the way that the Hiawatha event is voiced. Something like -

December 1493: A bitter winter forces some Cayuga and Onondaga villages to head further south than usual in their search for game, into the lands of the weak Wyoming Tribe. Their leader, credited by later histories as the legendary leader, Hiawatha (though this is only oral tradition) is disturbed, not only because this abuses the last peace treaty with the Wyomings, but also because it may provoke the Susquehanna, whom he calls the “warm blood brothers” of the Haudenosaunee.

DuQuense

May 12th, 2007, 02:51 PM

In 1492 When the banishment of the Jews from Spain was ordered with the Alhambra decree,Rabbi Don Isaac Abrabanel ,moved first to Genoa, then to Corfu, and finally to Venice. His riches exhausted, he died, in what he himself described as "exile", in 1508, in Venice, Italy.

I want to intercept his wanderings, and have Him Settle in the Hasfid Kingdom, with the Idea that this would attract more of the fleeing Jews to My Kingdom.

?Can I just do this? or ?do I need to talk it over with Genoa, or Corfu, first?

Tom Veil

May 12th, 2007, 02:56 PM

Glen

May 12th, 2007, 05:39 PM

I want to intercept his wanderings, and have Him Settle in the Hasfid Kingdom, with the Idea that this would attract more of the fleeing Jews to My Kingdom.

?Can I just do this? or ?do I need to talk it over with Genoa, or Corfu, first?

You need to talk to Genoa if that is where he was in 1493.

I have a similar issue for John Cabot, though I have to talk to both the nation he is a citizen of, Florence IIRC, and where he is in 1493, Spain. I want him to do much as OTL and come to England to be employed by the Bristol merchants (though with a different outcome), but I need to clear it with both of them.

Yours is easier since those silly Spaniards threw out a perfectly good Sephardim....:rolleyes:

Glen

May 13th, 2007, 05:34 PM

Right now, most of the threads for the 1493 project are housed in Before 1900.

I strongly feel that the draft events threads at least should remain in before 1900 where they might get greater scrutiny by the general AH.com population.

However, the others might be better 'placed' in other forums or subforums.

Should the rest of the threads also be in Before 1900? Should they be in Shared Worlds? A subforum in Shared Worlds? Or should they be distributed throughout the forum, with perhaps the Reference thread as a linker, so you have our Maps and Flags in the same forum as the Map thread and the Flag thread, the general discussion threads in Shared Worlds, the draft events threads in Before 1900, etc.

What do people think?

AJNolte

May 13th, 2007, 11:58 PM

You need to talk to Genoa if that is where he was in 1493.

I have a similar issue for John Cabot, though I have to talk to both the nation he is a citizen of, Florence IIRC, and where he is in 1493, Spain. I want him to do much as OTL and come to England to be employed by the Bristol merchants (though with a different outcome), but I need to clear it with both of them.

Yours is easier since those silly Spaniards threw out a perfectly good Sephardim....:rolleyes:

As far as I'm concerned you can hav'em.
So, did Ferdinand and Isabella already expel the Jews?

Glen

May 14th, 2007, 12:15 AM

As far as I'm concerned you can hav'em.
So, did Ferdinand and Isabella already expel the Jews?

Yep, back in 1492. Silly Christian Royalty!:rolleyes: :p

AJNolte

May 14th, 2007, 02:22 AM

Yep, back in 1492. Silly Christian Royalty!:rolleyes: :p Bah! A curse upon the inquisition and the silly Spanish royalty!

Fortunately, the Salamanca school will soon be founded, for which I have great plans.
Incidentally, is anyone interested in marrying a daughter to an elector of the HRE? If so, PM me.

Haggis

May 14th, 2007, 11:44 AM

Analytical Engine

May 14th, 2007, 11:54 AM

I think we should lump all of the "1493" stuff in a subforum in the "shared worlds" forum.

Glen

May 14th, 2007, 12:10 PM

The absolute biggest thing I could see happening with the Alibamu people would be to create, if it's not considered too ASB by y'all, the wheel. This could help begin road building and pulling the different Alibamu-Koasati towns together as a single group.

I can't believe I'm about to say this....

I don't think reinventing the wheel will help much, since contact is nigh!:eek:

Glen

May 14th, 2007, 12:23 PM

I think we should lump all of the "1493" stuff in a subforum in the "shared worlds" forum.

We are talking about making one of the subforums specific for collaborative timelines like this. If that goes forward, we can move the bulk of this to one of the subforums.

I favor still keeping the event drafting phase here, so that we get more widely viewed entries for people to provide feedback on.

Oddball

May 14th, 2007, 12:36 PM

I think we should lump all of the "1493" stuff in a subforum in the "shared worlds" forum.

I concur

filler filler

Tom Veil

May 14th, 2007, 01:38 PM

How about the drafts go in this forum, then move to Shared Worlds subforum (or Timelines and Scenarios) after the week passes and it's approved? The reference files would go in the subforum, too. (I suspect I'm just saying what Glen said, slightly differently).

Glen

May 14th, 2007, 03:55 PM

I concur

filler filler

How about the drafts go in this forum, then move to Shared Worlds subforum (or Timelines and Scenarios) after the week passes and it's approved? The reference files would go in the subforum, too. (I suspect I'm just saying what Glen said, slightly differently).

Okay, opinion seems to be for us to move the project to one of the Shared Worlds subforums, which is fine by me. As soon as the moderators finish plans on a revision, I will move the appropriate threads to a revamped subforum for projects like this.

So the draft threads will remain here, and have only the week's entries in them. The official timeline will be in Timelines and Scenarios, of course (at least once we have enough of a timeline to submit, which with this amount of discussion and people, should be probably by the end of week one or two). All the rest will reside in the subforum once it is prepared for our arrival.

Is this agreeable to all?

Glen

May 14th, 2007, 07:29 PM

Since our goal is for the collaborative timeline created here to be placed in Timelines and Scenarios, I ask that we try and follow Matt's submission standards from the get-go (sorry I didn't copy this here earlier).

Please try and follow these as much as possible. Thanks!

Todays Article: Help me, Help you(or Matt favors those who help themselves)

It's no secret, I prefer TLs that take heavy use a narrative, like Decades of Darkness (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=8170). But if you're going to post a straight up, literal timeline a few steps need to be taken in making it more coherant. Try to date and bold the datline as it comes up. This well break up massive blobs of text. Also, treat each date entry as a paragraph. Through some spaces between them. Inside a single entry don't be afraid to break it up into smaller paragraphs. This well greatly enhance readablity.

For example:

1998: George Washington came back to live and took one look around. He did not like what he saw. On a fateful november day, he vowed to raise an army to fight the hordes of Germanic Confederate Goblins running the United States. To the him, after sacrificing so much on behalf with his Brigade of Gnomish Flying Machine, it was enough to make him cry. He feld to New Yorkburg, and begain to contact old friends, the first of which was Teddy Roosevelt- Batman of New York City. Using Roosevelt's extensive contacts, a resitance network began to grow, first in New York metropolatian area and then across the country.
1999: The Great American Uprising begain in June. Flying forth from hidden shelters thousands upon thousands of brave Americans took to the skies in flying machines to destroy the Nazi Commie Confederate Occupiers. The Battles culminated in the Battle of Iwo Jima, Pennsylvania when American rebels defeated the IXXXX Corp of the enemy.

becomes:

1998: George Washington came back to live and took one look around. He did not like what he saw. On a fateful november day, he vowed to raise an army to fight the hordes of Germanic Confederate Goblins running the United States. To the him, after sacrificing so much on behalf with his Brigade of Gnomish Flying Machine, it was enough to make him cry.

He feld to New Yorkburg, and begain to contact old friends, the first of which was Teddy Roosevelt- Batman of New York City. Using Roosevelt's extensive contacts, a resitance network began to grow, first in New York metropolatian area and then across the country.

1999: The Great American Uprising begain in June. Flying forth from hidden shelters thousands upon thousands of brave Americans took to the skies in flying machines to destroy the Nazi Commie Confederate Occupiers. The Battles culminated in the Battle of Iwo Jima, Pennsylvania when American rebels defeated the IXXXX Corp of the enemy.

Glen

May 14th, 2007, 08:52 PM

Do me a favor. If you post an event that requires coordination or assent with another participant, and said person hasn't checked in in a while, please shoot them a PM to let them know, and tell us here that you have done so. They have 48 hours to give a response in the draft sections.

Glen

May 15th, 2007, 12:10 AM

If you simply want to post that an OTL event doesn't occur, please put it in parentheses; example here - (1495: Baldrik does not eat that extra turd.)

Glen

May 15th, 2007, 03:39 AM

For now, please post any IC or OOC banter here. When we move to a subforum, I will make a IC Banter thread so you can exorcise those urges without cluttering the other threads....:rolleyes: ;)

Glen

May 15th, 2007, 04:45 AM

pa_dutch

May 15th, 2007, 09:11 AM

Can I please have permission to claim the entire Teton Lakota instead of just two bands? It gets a little confusing, but according to all that I've read, the Teton are divided into seven bands (I have claimed two of which) and are also part of a larger Sioux nation composed of seven tribes. There is no true political unity in either, but the bands of the Lakota keep in close contact and would be much easier to keep track of as a whole in this game.

Glen

May 15th, 2007, 12:12 PM

RCTFI

May 15th, 2007, 05:10 PM

So far one gets the feeling that this timeline will be a far better place to be Jewish in....:rolleyes:

I was thinking of having England do some sort of asylum offer, may still, but its interesting how much Alternate Historians find the exclusion of Jews one of the silliest things in history.

I know what you mean. Really, it's fairly suprising to me that anti-semitism was so widespread - Jews tend to be smart, educated people (if you want proof, just look at how many Jewish scientists won nobel prizes), and all the Jews I know are nice, wonderful, people. I just can't understand why anyone would dislike them. Especially dislike them enough to do all of the horrible things that Christians did to them throughout history...

Glen

May 15th, 2007, 11:36 PM

I know what you mean. Really, it's fairly suprising to me that anti-semitism was so widespread - Jews tend to be smart, educated people (if you want proof, just look at how many Jewish scientists won nobel prizes), and all the Jews I know are nice, wonderful, people. I just can't understand why anyone would dislike them. Especially dislike them enough to do all of the horrible things that Christians did to them throughout history...

Well, we can work for a better world, but we need to do it gradually and realistically rather than just 'poof' and Christians and Jews are singing "We are the World."

Smaug

May 16th, 2007, 02:01 AM

I'm hoping this is change and less wank...

pompejus

May 16th, 2007, 10:08 AM

Glen

May 16th, 2007, 08:08 PM

I would like to say that because of a lack of time, I will not post much until tomorrow. I hope this is no problem.
Further I would like to know where to post. My intention is for Burgundy to interfere in a Liegean civil war. Would that be the Domestic events thread or the International events thread? I do have claims on both areas.

If you control both and there are no external powers other than your two involved at the time of the event, then you post it in Domestic, as it only needs to be reviewed for plausibility.

The Sicilian

May 17th, 2007, 12:42 AM

Are we allowed to post other forms of media (COAs, Flags, Photos, ect. ect.) besides maps?

Perhaps we should have a seperate thread for all of that.

Glen

May 17th, 2007, 12:52 AM

Are we allowed to post other forms of media (COAs, Flags, Photos, ect. ect.) besides maps?

Perhaps we should have a seperate thread for all of that.

Yes. Once we get the subforum revamped and ready for our use, what I suggest is that you establish your own threads for each of your nations (that you choose to) and you can post all that sort of things there along with extracted events from the timeline that have to do with your nations.

Or if people really would like a thread for everyone for multi-media stuff, we could just make one.

Opinions?

Glen

May 17th, 2007, 08:43 PM

Wow, if I'm reading the events in the international thread right, instead of having the Italian Wars in the late 15th century, we're having a liberation of the Holy Land!:eek: :cool:

The Sicilian

May 17th, 2007, 08:55 PM

Per la Riconquista!:D

Glen

May 19th, 2007, 02:00 AM

http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/polcrt/images/CrHen8.jpg

Glen

May 19th, 2007, 04:18 AM

Note that Florence has some really interesting people in the 1490s and 1500s, specifically Leonardo Da Vinci and Nicolo Machiavelli. With no Italian War, Da Vinci would have that bronze for his statue, for one thing.

Aussey

May 19th, 2007, 04:38 AM

Glen

May 19th, 2007, 04:39 AM

I have the pleasure to announce that we have recruited from among our ranks three moderators to assist with questions and disputes not able to be settled by concensus. They are:

DuQuense
pa dutch
Tom Veil

Please thank them for being willing to help herd us unruly cats.:)

Glen

May 19th, 2007, 04:40 AM

Whoever is Portugal definatley doesn't want to forget keeping priests and missionaries within the Kongo, and keeping them intact with rest of Europe as Portugese allies- lest they find other Catholic powers to be their patrons...

Well, depends on what direction they want to take Portugal. People have all sorts of ideas, don'tchaknow....;)

Glen

May 19th, 2007, 04:55 AM

Population of Medieval Europe according to Carlo Cipolla

Region 1000 1300 1500 1700
Balkans - - 7 8
Low Countries - - 2 3
British Isles 2 5 5 9
Danubian Countries - - 6 9
France 5 15 16 19
Germany 3 12 13 15
Italy 5 10 11 13
Poland - - 4 6
Russia - - 10 18
Scandanavia - - - 3
Spain and Portugal - - 9 10

The numbers in the table are in millions. Switzerland (whose maximum population was estimated at 1.2 million) was omitted from the data above. The data is from [Cipolla 1994 p 4]

marl_d

May 19th, 2007, 02:09 PM

Hey guys, I think we've got some issues with communication between some of the participants and it's kinda affecting everything in the region. I understand how you wanna keep things plausible right now and not have too many Huge divergences right away, but it seems to me that Sweden and Denmark perspective controllers (for lack of better term) have a difference of opinion on what is happening, it would be nice to get this sorted out before the first part of the time line is posted and we can continue with the next decade on monday. i'm personally just getting a little frustrated with stuff for obvious reasons. I'm not trying to sound like i'm bitching or anything, just would like a little more communication on everyones part.

LightInfa

May 19th, 2007, 02:10 PM

marl_d

May 19th, 2007, 02:14 PM

I am communicating with the Danish person, and we are working out the situation currently.

ok, just wanted to make sure... it just doesn't seem like thats happening in the other two threads. but if you are, great :D

arctic warrior

May 19th, 2007, 02:54 PM

ok, just wanted to make sure... it just doesn't seem like thats happening in the other two threads. but if you are, great :D

We try to catch up on you, but problem is we have jobs and other business to attend to besides AH.:)

DuQuense

May 19th, 2007, 03:08 PM

We try to catch up on you, but problem is we have jobs and other business to attend to besides AH
Now Now--Let us remebre what is Important [This Site] and not let little minor things {RL for example] get in the way.

DuQuense

May 19th, 2007, 03:31 PM

Re Jews;
Remembre in the 15~16th century Pepole turly did belive that Jews kidnapped Chistian Babies to Curicifiy like they had Jesus, and to Eat afterwards.
It will take at least a hundred years to change this type of thinking.

Also there were strict laws about what jobs jews could do, basically all the common Trades [Cobbler, baker, carpenter, ect] were closed to them.
This left only the businesses to them.

There is a bit of Rural/Urban as well here,
but look at how the Asians business are regarded in the black community [US] or the Indian Businesses in Africa, or the Chinese Businessmen in SE Asia.
This will not change quickly- if at all.

Glen

May 19th, 2007, 06:32 PM

marl_d

May 19th, 2007, 09:43 PM

They have 48 hours to straighten it out between themselves, then we have the moderators do it for them if there is still disagreement.

yeah, i know, they seemed to have worked it out between them so i'm not worried now. sorry if it came across like i was upset...just a little frustrated by it

Glen

May 20th, 2007, 12:57 AM

Okay, I just tried to get the events for 1493 up and I'm exhausted.

We need to work out some more uniform standards and a better way to process entries.

Take a look at what I did in the 1493 entry for the rough draft thread, and give me some feedback here.

Red is for OTL events, BTW.

I think a couple things for now:

First, please run your entries through a word processor or something to catch spelling and grammatical errors before posting. Please put the actual event draft in a post by itself, with no other material or commentary in that post. If doing a re-write of an event, please use the quote function to quote the last version in the same post as the re-write. Please indicate both a time and a location of some sort in each entry submitted. Put dates and locations in bold.

marl_d

May 20th, 2007, 01:07 AM

looks good so far, the only thing i can think of is maybe cut down on some of the story telling or at lest post the event then tell some of the story

BlackMage

May 20th, 2007, 02:10 AM

Well, the uploaded TL is definitely food for thought; in future, I'll keep my updates to a year-by-year thing, rather than the decade-long analysis I did for both the Yolgnu and the Macassans.

I'm mostly using International Events for my year-by-year TL, and Domestic Events for longer-term analysis (because domestic events move slower and take more time to see the consequences of). I also won't update anything for Malacca or the Gunditjmara for this cycle; Malacca will come into play next decade, and it's going to take decades for the Gunditjmara to come into play.

Tom Veil

May 20th, 2007, 02:19 AM

Please indicate both a time and a location of some sort in each entry submitted.

Agreed. Events like "1496 -- his brother takes command of the troops" will be completely useless once they're buried in the middle of the global timeline. I can be guilty of it myself, but it's important to keep repeating names and places in each entry.

Glen

May 20th, 2007, 04:39 PM

Any other events other than the Scandanavian ones and the Babur ones that need reconcilliation?

Glen

May 20th, 2007, 04:42 PM

I have to say, I am a bit disappointed in the lack of non-participant commentary on the events.

I suggest that when we move to the subforum, we move everything, including the draft event threads. Once the week is up and we've done the best within our group to vet the events, we'll post the rough draft composite timelines here for another week to get some fine-tuning feedback before adding it to the timeline in Timelines and Scenarios.

Glen

May 21st, 2007, 01:38 PM

Okay, folks, some news.

We will be moving the bulk of the 1493 project to a subforum of Shared Worlds, probably sometime today.

My best guess is that it will go into the subforum currently named "Post-Apocalyptic" and that subforum will be renamed something like Collaborative Projects, or something similar.

I'd like comments on my previous post to this one for ideas.

Please hold off posting your 1500-1509 events until we complete the move and the threads are re-vamped to accomodate new events. This too should happen sometime today.

Thank you for your patience.

Keenir

May 21st, 2007, 04:17 PM

I have to say, I am a bit disappointed in the lack of non-participant commentary on the events.

part of that might be how there's a dozen threads, and people might not be sure where to post their comments.

also, I think I saw someone (you?) say that we shouldn't bloat the threads with unneccessary chatter.

Glen

May 21st, 2007, 08:37 PM

part of that might be how there's a dozen threads, and people might not be sure where to post their comments.

also, I think I saw someone (you?) say that we shouldn't bloat the threads with unneccessary chatter.

Unnecessary banter, not critique.

Point about the thread count is valid. Using a rough draft single thread here should help that.

Glen

May 22nd, 2007, 01:31 PM

This next round, we're going to try organizing differently.

By trial and error, I've developed some ideas for standardizing the entries, at least enough to make them readily editable.

We're going to have only one thread this round for 'draft events'. I've created another for specific discussions to work out what we have been calling 'international' events. This is a test, we may do things differently as we find what works best.

I will also be posting a 'Retro-Events' thread for entries for timeperiods that have passed. So long as they don't conflict with what has already been approved, they can be added.

Glen

May 22nd, 2007, 01:36 PM

Also, people, I know we are all busy, and involved in our own events, but I need the 1493 community to self-check as much as possible. If you see an event that seems implausible, even if it doesn't involve you, please let us know. Indicate whether you have a question about it that needs clarification, or whether you doubt the plausibility.

I'm open to suggestions on how best to accomplish this.

Glen

May 22nd, 2007, 02:26 PM

While we are awaiting final clarification of the Central Asian and Scandinavian events, the rest is now in rough draft form posted in the 1493 Timeline Rough Draft thread. Everyone please review it to make certain it meets your approval and I haven't screwed up too much. I made some spot edits for clarity and to blur things for plausibility.

Glen

May 22nd, 2007, 02:42 PM

RCTFI

May 22nd, 2007, 10:17 PM

I just wanted to compliment the entire project team on their work - it's looking great, and I've got to say that I'm looking forward to working with you all on the rest of the TL.

Glen

May 22nd, 2007, 10:40 PM

I just wanted to compliment the entire project team on their work - it's looking great, and I've got to say that I'm looking forward to working with you all on the rest of the TL.

Thanks for that, RCTFI. I feel much the same way. I think this will be an exciting project and add to the AH.com legacy.

Good work so far, gang!

Aussey

May 22nd, 2007, 10:50 PM

How long does it take for a ship from southern Africa to reach Europe at this time?

Once that is answered...

Also- to the players of the following nations:

The Vatican/Papal States
Naples/the Sicilies
Portugal
France
England

Would you all be willing to welcome a diplomatic team of the King of Ndongo and Matamba? They will be securing alliances, and opening up trade.

The Sicilian

May 22nd, 2007, 11:01 PM

I would certainly welcome my Catholic brothers from Africa with open arms.

Aussey

May 22nd, 2007, 11:02 PM

I would certainly welcome my Catholic brothers from Africa with open arms.

And your country is?

The Sicilian

May 22nd, 2007, 11:03 PM

And your country is?
Naples-Sicily-Jerusalem

Glen

May 23rd, 2007, 02:09 AM

pa_dutch

May 23rd, 2007, 02:46 AM

I'm really enjoying how this is going so far. I only have one hesitation... I find the threads a little difficult to navigate. Might it be easier to divide the game by region (Perhaps "Old World" and "New World", maybe divide "Old World" into Europe, Africa, and Asia) rather than just domestic/international?

Smaug

May 23rd, 2007, 03:27 AM

Africa would be a bit of an enigma wouldn't it. It was in the old world, but would ironically be the last colonial prey. I also take a bit of acception to China and India being excluded from the Old World. Perhaps things should be broken down by continent, and some form of area of influence figured in. Maybe lump Australia and Pacifica, and tie in all islands to the closest continent. ? Just a thought:)

DuQuense

May 23rd, 2007, 03:54 AM

?Is Portugal still in the game?

?Did Da Gama get sent back to india in 1502?

Tom Veil

May 23rd, 2007, 01:15 PM

?Is Portugal still in the game?

?Did Da Gama get sent back to india in 1502?

I don't know whether Portugal's in the game, but as I understand Glen's rules, if Portugal is not in the game, then Da Gama must go back to India unless some other nation can influence Portugese events enough to force a divergence (which shouldn't be hard at all).

Tom Veil

May 24th, 2007, 02:25 AM

To avoid any confusion: I've started referring to my new Hindu-ruled nation in South Asia as "Bhārata." I thought calling it Rajputana or India would be confusing, since they're misnomers. (Although ... well, Bhārata causes its own confusion. :o)

Glen

May 24th, 2007, 01:34 PM

I don't know whether Portugal's in the game, but as I understand Glen's rules, if Portugal is not in the game, then Da Gama must go back to India unless some other nation can influence Portugese events enough to force a divergence (which shouldn't be hard at all).

That's essentially it. Try not to refer to them if you can avoid it to give our other participants time to jump back into things. If you need to, just make certain to PM them, and if we don't hear from them in 48 hours, we'll have to run such events through the group for a decision.

PS - I'm a bit bogged down in R/L, so sorry for the delays on editing the timeline. I'll get on it as soon as possible. Thanks!

Glen

May 24th, 2007, 07:13 PM

pompejus

May 24th, 2007, 07:27 PM

Folks, while I definitely recommend you have your own threads for describinng your national histories, please do refrain from putting in the events as such until we're pretty sure they'll stand. They should all go through the draft thread first for consideration.

So if I wish to post some new events, I should post them first (in correct form) in the draft thread and then in a national thread? In what national thread should I post mine? A yet to be created HRE thread?

PS Is the person who controls France still around? If not, shouldn't someone else take over? France was an important country in these days and the next 500 years. France should have major effects of the states I control. I would take over, but I think it would take away the focus of my areas (and I think I do not know enough about France's history).

Glen

May 26th, 2007, 04:32 AM

So if I wish to post some new events, I should post them first (in correct form) in the draft thread and then in a national thread? In what national thread should I post mine? A yet to be created HRE thread?

Post them in draft thread, wait until they are accepted into the timeline after some time for public scrutiny.

PS Is the person who controls France still around? If not, shouldn't someone else take over? France was an important country in these days and the next 500 years. France should have major effects of the states I control. I would take over, but I think it would take away the focus of my areas (and I think I do not know enough about France's history).

This project is going to take about a year to complete. We need to give people some room to get back when r/l intervenes.

For example, Psychomeltdown has PMed me and will be resurfacing in a few days.

Try not to reference internal events of absentee nations if possible. If you need to do something because of interaction with your nation, then write it up, PM the other participant, and post it. The community will decide if its a reasonable move at that point.

And again, remember that we are just in the second decade of a five century long timeline. We have time....

DuQuense

May 26th, 2007, 04:45 PM

I have sent a delegation [1503] of over 500 people, [they will be shedding people (journey carpenters) at each country] , it is lead by a royal cousin of King Eslander.
It's mission is to hire Shipwrights
OTOH Shipwrights are a national treasure, [see how England treated them in the mid 1500's]
So a post about how your country reacted to this ?Attemped Theft? -so as to speak, would be appreciated.
[this would also apply to any Russia/other country's attempt to jump start it's naval program]

In a way this sending of people to learn ship building is a early case of Industrial espionage, thro not thought of it that way at the time.

Psychomeltdown

May 26th, 2007, 05:24 PM

I'm thinking that the Portuguese will be going along about same as OTL in the way of exploring up and down Africa and into India for about the first two decades.

There isn't really much to do there, beyond speed up the rate of discoveries and the like, but seeing as how things, exploration wise, are more

though the 1497 expelling of jews from Portugal will be merely a token effort.

They'll also be a more intense shifting toward putting a lot more effort into ship building, cannon making, and maintaining a tight hold on it's colonies.

Psychomeltdown

May 26th, 2007, 05:27 PM

?Is Portugal still in the game?

?Did Da Gama get sent back to india in 1502?

Da Gama headed back to India in 1502, with 25 warships, larger than OTL, but then again it's time to put more effort into keeping the ground we've gained in india.

DuQuense

May 26th, 2007, 06:28 PM

Da Gama headed back to India in 1502, with 25 warships, larger than OTL, but then again it's time to put more effort into keeping the ground we've gained in india.da gama in 1498 one ship. Pedro Álvares Cabral in 1500 several ships.
Da Gama in 1502- 20 ships, and a extorted trading agreement. Prior to 1502 you didn't have much ground.

It was Emperor Krishna Deva Raya of the Vijayanagara Empire decidsion in 1509 to reward the Portuguese Portugal assisted king Raya's forces in this conflict, providing horses and artillery, in exchange seeking control of the port of Bhatkal. that got them the port of Bhatkal/Goa.
Unless You want to get involved with Portuguese troops [transport problems] you have about the most you can get, at the time.

You would be better off seeking to keep the ground you have in Hormuz. The Omani/Yemen are about to kick you out of there. [OTL]

And Da Gama had the largest warships being built in Europe at the time.

Keenir

May 26th, 2007, 07:28 PM

Psychomeltdown

May 26th, 2007, 07:57 PM

AJNolte

May 26th, 2007, 10:55 PM

Uh, Portugal, I really need to talk to you, on both a Spanish and Kongolese front. Portugal will be willing to accept your diplomatic team into our territory.

Aussey

May 26th, 2007, 11:18 PM

Uh, Portugal, I really need to talk to you, on both a Spanish and Kongolese front.

Ditto.
except, on an Ndongolese front.

Smaug

May 27th, 2007, 02:30 AM

Psychomeltdown

May 27th, 2007, 03:10 AM

Uh, Portugal, I really need to talk to you, on both a Spanish and Kongolese front.

Ditto.
except, on an Ndongolese front...

Toss me an PM on your ponderings and I'll see I can do.

The Portuguese ended up using a route that passed Brazil. It was faster to use the trade winds and such. I'm sure they were aware of Brazil, at least, fairly early.
True. they probably did sight it from time to time, but it wasn't until Cabral actually set foot on it and mapped some of it that it was figured out it's a new island/continet

Glen

May 28th, 2007, 02:18 AM

I screwed up a little bit.

Technically, we should have gone in the first week from 1493-1500, then this past week from 1501-1510.

So this week starting Monday, we will be doing 1510-1520, then the next week we'll do 1521-1530 (the 1520s).

PS - I'm looking for volunteers to do decade summaries. It really would be just that, a summary of the big events of the decade. These will be single entries that will be posted at the end of each decade. We'll also be doing the same for each century. But we have time for that.

Glen

May 28th, 2007, 03:52 AM

Just to reiterate....

If there are events in the locked threads that you still need to discuss something on, post the discussion in the open Retro Events thread, please.

DuQuense

May 28th, 2007, 03:56 AM

I'm still not sure if you own the Western Coastal Kingdoms or are they not yet under the dominion of the V. Empire. if they aren't, then i think i can choose as to what thereaccording to three different maps of India in 1500, the coast is part of the Empire.

Now this is not New York and the Federal government. More like Bavaria and the HRE, but still part of the empire.

I will slow down the bigger boats in Ethiopia, but Dhows and Dhioti are just enlarged Rowboats.

In 1496 Ethiopia asked the King of Portugal for some Gunsmiths and Musketeers.
The King has decided not to send them.

?Does anyone Else's country feel like sending them?. Ethiopia will remembre this favor, down the road.

Psychomeltdown

May 28th, 2007, 04:12 AM

according to three different maps of India in 1500, the coast is part of the Empire.

Now this is not New York and the Federal government. More like Bavaria and the HRE, but still part of the empire.
Well, all that i've read on the situation is that they're kingdoms unto themselves. Calicut basically fought a war with the Portuguese for about 20 years.

Therefore it's possible to gain some concessions out of them and for the Portuguese to establish some bases in land that are although part of the V Empire they aren't really completely under their control. Cochin in OTl and ATL have been very welcoming of the Portuguese.

The Agreements were made with the local rulers and if they were conquered or annexed by the VE, then those agreements should hold up with the VE, correct?

Glen

May 28th, 2007, 06:00 AM

according to three different maps of India in 1500, the coast is part of the Empire.

Now this is not New York and the Federal government. More like Bavaria and the HRE, but still part of the empire.

I will slow down the bigger boats in Ethiopia, but Dhows and Dhioti are just enlarged Rowboats.

In 1496 Ethiopia asked the King of Portugal for some Gunsmiths and Musketeers.
The King has decided not to send them.

?Does anyone Else's country feel like sending them?. Ethiopia will remembre this favor, down the road.

Well, all that i've read on the situation is that they're kingdoms unto themselves. Calicut basically fought a war with the Portuguese for about 20 years.

Therefore it's possible to gain some concessions out of them and for the Portuguese to establish some bases in land that are although part of the V Empire they aren't really completely under their control. Cochin in OTl and ATL have been very welcoming of the Portuguese.

The Agreements were made with the local rulers and if they were conquered or annexed by the VE, then those agreements should hold up with the VE, correct?

Okay, to the best of my ability to discern, both Calicut and Cochin are inside the map areas attributed to the Vijayanagara Empire, have been depicted on maps posted here for many days as such. Therefore I believe that DQ had a reasonable expectation that these areas were under his control, and rightly so. He has the right to determine their reaction to Da Gama, within the bounds of plausibility.

However, Da Gama is Portuguese and Psych has the right to determine his fate. So whether he lives or dies should best be determined by Psych.

I propose that while DQ can decide to reject overtures by the Portuguese, it is likely that Da Gama and most of his ships will escape.

Ideally, you two should hash out a compromise series of events to depict this meeting. If not, then we should modify events to reflect the bare bones of what I have stated above.

All of this is contingent upon the agreement of Tom Veil or pa dutch, the other two moderators not directly involved. If they both hold an opinion on this at odds with my own, we'll instead go with that, of course.

Does all of this seem fair so far?

Psychomeltdown

May 28th, 2007, 01:55 PM

It's been hashed out.

Portugal gets a hold in Cochin and Calicut.

and they get Goa in 1510 after they help the V Empire put down a rebellion in that area in 1509 by providing horses and cannons.

Glen

May 28th, 2007, 02:13 PM

It's been hashed out.

Portugal gets a hold in Cochin and Calicut.

and they get Goa in 1510 after they help the V Empire put down a rebellion in that area in 1509 by providing horses and cannons.

Please post a list of the now defunct events and the new, agreed upon events in the retro thread to assist me in editing the timeline.

And thank you, you two, for working things out together.

Glen

May 28th, 2007, 05:23 PM

The Sicilian

May 28th, 2007, 05:32 PM

American colonization is going to be interesting. Not only do we have the early players from OTL (Spain & Portugal), but also England, Germany (Hansa) and Italy (Naples) are also sending out expeditions.

Psychomeltdown

May 28th, 2007, 08:22 PM

Comments on speed and style and the use of OTL figures....

I'm a bit concerned that we are occasionally veering off into poor plausibility writings from time to time.

First of course is the question of speed. I am ALL in favor of changing the character of your nations and lands, but it should be incremental, in steps, with preceding events laying the groundwork (and plausibility) for future events. We are working in centuries, here, folks. Your nations do not have to build themselves overnight.

Second is style. Beware making Europeans of the 16th century suddenly act like its the 20th century. Also watch out for using terms that are anachronistic when there are others available to describe the same concept or feeling. Beware also of making non-Europeans sound and act like Europeans, or other folk from different forms of cultures assume readily the trappings of another. While they may at times be perceived through the lens of another culture, or take on the veneer of that other culture for their own ends, they are not, and there should be something in your posts that demonstrates that.

Lastly, be careful at this early stage when using OTL figures with a known personality and history. Try not to have them do things out of character without good reason. If you want something to happen that is out of keeping with the OTL person in that position, prevent them from assuming it in favor of someone more suitable, or kill them off or otherwise remove them from that position in favor of someone more suitable, or wait for a new generation, where you will have far more versatility in depicting their personality and decisions.

I want us all to have fun, and you guys are doing some great writing, but let's be careful out there.

PS - PLEASE do label each entry with the location you'd like it under, and PLEASE at least use the standard dating order [year month/season date:]. It makes things easier for me when editing them together.

I agree with Glen here.

the speed of things is way off.

things that should take longer are happening suddenly over night, It's not just the Ethiopians suddenly building a navy, it's Naples suddenly colonizing, it's Hansa suddenly becoming a naval power, it's the colonization of the new world, its the Congo suddenly becoming European in dress, religion, and technology.

Everyone knows there history here, everyone knows what will happen and that the way to go, for now, is the naval aspects of the game. But you're forgetting the entire culture and the society of the nation you're playing.

I can agree the Spain, Portugal, and England would be more willing to go out and explore, they've got a seafaring culture behind them. But Hansa? Naples? is that a Med nation? They push around galleys and small ships designed for the Med Sea.

The Next issue is money. Ships cost a lot. Soldiers cost a lot. sending out fleets that bring nothing back are a complete waste of money for nations that can barely afford them. Remember at this time nations aren't incredibly rich.

Keep things realistic. Keep things to a point where they can be considered plausible. Things happen slow in this era, things aren't fast, knowledge is not shared, maps aren't shared, trading areas aren't shared, and every nation although close friend can become an enemy overnight.

The Sicilian

May 28th, 2007, 08:37 PM

I agree with Glen here.

the speed of things is way off.

things that should take longer are happening suddenly over night, It's not just the Ethiopians suddenly building a navy, it's Naples suddenly colonizing, it's Hansa suddenly becoming a naval power, it's the colonization of the new world, its the Congo suddenly becoming European in dress, religion, and technology.

Everyone knows there history here, everyone knows what will happen and that the way to go, for now, is the naval aspects of the game. But you're forgetting the entire culture and the society of the nation you're playing.
I agree with you there. Things are progressing quite fast.

I can agree the Spain, Portugal, and England would be more willing to go out and explore, they've got a seafaring culture behind them. But Hansa? Naples? is that a Med nation? They push around galleys and small ships designed for the Med Sea.
'Cept for the 15 or so Atlantic vessals that king Alphonso comissioned for the purpose of New world exploration.

The Next issue is money. Ships cost a lot. Soldiers cost a lot. sending out fleets that bring nothing back are a complete waste of money for nations that can barely afford them. Remember at this time nations aren't incredibly rich.

In return for the sale of Malta, the Hansa (whom I believe have gotten quite rich) fully paid for one Neapolitan expedition to the New world, and agreed t oa joint expedition to South America. The kingdom can absolutly pay for half an expedition. Which brings me to the finances of Naples. It is camparitivly doing quite well. It controls a large section of the Levant, the straghts of Messina (both of them active areas of trade and commerce) and is one of the premier powers in Italy. It got a lot of Money from the Middle East crusade. It has the Abrabanel banking family to finance all those little domestic projects.

Keep things realistic. Keep things to a point where they can be considered plausible. Things happen slow in this era, things aren't fast, knowledge is not shared, maps aren't shared, trading areas aren't shared, and every nation although close friend can become an enemy overnight.
If you find a lot of my events unrealistic, then please tell me which specific ones. I really like the way that this timeline is going and would be more than glad to improve me sections.

AJNolte

May 28th, 2007, 09:04 PM

Yes, the Hansa have gotten quite rich off the Med trade. The Baltic city states have become a de facto nation (see posts in 1493-9) and they, along with the Teutonic knights, have been steadily building up a navy, partially for the purposes of exploration and partially to counter the Calmarnists, since 1493. The Hanseatic League currently includes the Republic of Lucca, the city of Ostia and Malta, as well as it's German holdings, and enjoys favorable trading relations in Africa and throughout the Med. ?The Teutonic Knights have de facto become a military and missionary component of the Hansa, and have absorbed most of the Levonian order to this purpose. Frederick von Saxon, teutonic grand master, also sold Albertine Saxony to the elector Duke Frederick and dedicated these funds toward the expeditions to the new world. I suggest you go back and carefully reread the Hansa posts if you think it's implausible; we've been building up to this since the beginning of the TL, and doing so quite systematically.
If anything, I have a problem with Portugal's claim to all of South America. ITTL there was no Treaty of Tordesillas. The Portuguese OTL got only Brazil, partially because they were distracted with the same kind of stuff in India you're dealing with now. Rich as Portugal is, it can't support a colonial and trade empire in India and
Africa and control all of South America at the same time. The only way I can actually see that working would be an Anglo-Portuguese agreement to divide up the new world between themselves, at which point you'd be at war with Spain and Naples (not to mention the Hansa and much of the HRE).
ITTL Spanish exploration is considerably slower due to the money and effort invested in the Crusades (this might also effect the Neapolitans; I doubt they'd be able to afford it at all without the funding they gained by selling Malta to the Hansa). However, they could actually be making money off of the wealthy pilgrims as well. I agree with you there. Things are progressing quite fast.

'Cept for the 15 or so Atlantic vessals that king Alphonso comissioned for the purpose of New world exploration.

In return for the sale of Malta, the Hansa (whom I believe have gotten quite rich) fully paid for one Neapolitan expedition to the New world, and agreed t oa joint expedition to South America. The kingdom can absolutly pay for half an expedition. Which brings me to the finances of Naples. It is camparitivly doing quite well. It controls a large section of the Levant, the straghts of Messina (both of them active areas of trade and commerce) and is one of the premier powers in Italy. It got a lot of Money from the Middle East crusade. It has the Abrabanel banking family to finance all those little domestic projects.

If you find a lot of my events unrealistic, then please tell me which specific ones. I really like the way that this timeline is going and would be more than glad to improve me sections.

Glen

May 28th, 2007, 09:07 PM

I agree with you there. Things are progressing quite fast.

True. Speeding things up relative to what happened in your nation OTL isn't terrible, but it needs to be incremental, and develop in a sensible way.

I'll use myself as an example, if I may.

I took an OTL figure (John Cabot) and just sent him off about a year earlier on a trip he wanted to make, and that his backers wanted. Not a big difference, in the scheme of things, at first. But then his journeys did better (specifically not dying). The progression was, if I might say, natural. Note further that his funding is being motivated by a very tradable commodity at this this point (in this case, beaver). While I have accelerated the mapping and initiation of trade in the New World, and shifted it to more English efforts early, none of this is out of character for the nation or the people, and is building up slowly. We don't have towns or colonies, we are barely establishing trading posts so far. Now, Henry VIIth is a supporter of shipbuilding (England's drydock was commissioned in 1495 OTL, for example), and now shipping is getting a boost, fueled by fur and abetted by the fact that I killed off Warbeck, so have less internal and border turmoil to quell at this point.

Note that for reality's sake, I didn't let everything be all sunshine for John Cabot. He dies much more successful, but still missing his goal. I have taken his OTL son, the one that DID follow in his footsteps, and have advanced him and given him better support and different sponsorship, all a natural outgrowth of his father's activities and his activities with his father.

Now then, you can imagine what the future might hold, but it's the future still, as appropriate (or so I hope).

'Cept for the 15 or so Atlantic vessals that king Alphonso comissioned for the purpose of New world exploration.

In return for the sale of Malta, the Hansa (whom I believe have gotten quite rich) fully paid for one Neapolitan expedition to the New world, and agreed to a joint expedition to South America. The kingdom can absolutly pay for half an expedition. Which brings me to the finances of Naples. It is camparitivly doing quite well. It controls a large section of the Levant, the straits of Messina (both of them active areas of trade and commerce) and is one of the premier powers in Italy. It got a lot of Money from the Middle East crusade. It has the Abrabanel banking family to finance all those little domestic projects.

I agree that Naples has some advantages, and may with time be a contender for empire, like a precocious Italy.

However, I do question your statement that they got a lot of money from the Middle East crusade. Wars cost money, and you don't generally recoup those losses for years. You did sell Malta, which raised some cash, but you also bought Sicily, which cost. The Abramanels do help your financial situation, but what are they getting in return? I bet its a substantial cut (there is a reason they're rich, you know).

If you find a lot of my events unrealistic, then please tell me which specific ones. I really like the way that this timeline is going and would be more than glad to improve me sections.[/QUOTE]

So short answer is, I think the Neapolitans could do this, eventually. But the question is WHY they would be doing this this early, the scale, and what are their initial and then continuing incentives?

I would recommend that the nations who want to get into the colony business but didn't IOTL look to the Netherlands as your model, though even there its not a perfect one. But that can give you an example. Its a small nation that got in later, but did pretty darn well for itself.

The Sicilian

May 28th, 2007, 09:20 PM

I agree that Naples has some advantages, and may with time be a contender for empire, like a precocious Italy.

However, I do question your statement that they got a lot of money from the Middle East crusade. Wars cost money, and you don't generally recoup those losses for years. You did sell Malta, which raised some cash, but you also bought Sicily, which cost. The Abramanels do help your financial situation, but what are they getting in return? I bet its a substantial cut (there is a reason they're rich, you know).
Okay, what I said was an overstatement. My bad. But Naples is in a significantly better position economicly. And the Abrabanels make up for their losses by being given certain economic advantages, which I havent named. Would getting some profits from the Ndongoese mining and ivory poaching be resonable?

So short answer is, I think the Neapolitans could do this, eventually. But the question is WHY they would be doing this this early, the scale, and what are their initial and then continuing incentives?

I would recommend that the nations who want to get into the colony business but didn't IOTL look to the Netherlands as your model, though even there its not a perfect one. But that can give you an example. Its a small nation that got in later, but did pretty darn well for itself.
Alright, I will scale back colonization. What specific areas do you find unresonable?

As for the cause, perhaps the King is very interested in the exploration of things outside of Europe. That's possibly why he agreed to enter a partnership with Ndongo.

AJNolte

May 28th, 2007, 09:26 PM

True. Speeding things up relative to what happened in your nation OTL isn't terrible, but it needs to be incremental, and develop in a sensible way.

I'll use myself as an example, if I may.

I took an OTL figure (John Cabot) and just sent him off about a year earlier on a trip he wanted to make, and that his backers wanted. Not a big difference, in the scheme of things, at first. But then his journeys did better (specifically not dying). The progression was, if I might say, natural. Note further that his funding is being motivated by a very tradable commodity at this this point (in this case, beaver). While I have accelerated the mapping and initiation of trade in the New World, and shifted it to more English efforts early, none of this is out of character for the nation or the people, and is building up slowly. We don't have towns or colonies, we are barely establishing trading posts so far. Now, Henry VIIth is a supporter of shipbuilding (England's drydock was commissioned in 1495 OTL, for example), and now shipping is getting a boost, fueled by fur and abetted by the fact that I killed off Warbeck, so have less internal and border turmoil to quell at this point.

Note that for reality's sake, I didn't let everything be all sunshine for John Cabot. He dies much more successful, but still missing his goal. I have taken his OTL son, the one that DID follow in his footsteps, and have advanced him and given him better support and different sponsorship, all a natural outgrowth of his father's activities and his activities with his father.

Now then, you can imagine what the future might hold, but it's the future still, as appropriate (or so I hope).

I agree that Naples has some advantages, and may with time be a contender for empire, like a precocious Italy.

However, I do question your statement that they got a lot of money from the Middle East crusade. Wars cost money, and you don't generally recoup those losses for years. You did sell Malta, which raised some cash, but you also bought Sicily, which cost. The Abramanels do help your financial situation, but what are they getting in return? I bet its a substantial cut (there is a reason they're rich, you know).

If you find a lot of my events unrealistic, then please tell me which specific ones. I really like the way that this timeline is going and would be more than glad to improve me sections.

So short answer is, I think the Neapolitans could do this, eventually. But the question is WHY they would be doing this this early, the scale, and what are their initial and then continuing incentives?

I would recommend that the nations who want to get into the colony business but didn't IOTL look to the Netherlands as your model, though even there its not a perfect one. But that can give you an example. Its a small nation that got in later, but did pretty darn well for itself.[/quote]

I still maintain that the Hansa has the incentive:
1. Decline in the Baltic trade has led them to start looking for other markets (for example, their growth in the Med).
2. The Teutonic Knights, still a religious order, are looking for a new area of influence.
3. The loss of money involved in selling Malta was more than recouped with the sail of Albertine Saxony.
4. Hanseatic naval build-up has already been well-established.
5. A political structure (the Wendish Federation) has emerged.
6. Unlike nearly every other colonial power save England, Hansa has had minimal military conflicts (Portugal is fighting in India, Spain and Naples had the crusade).

I can tone things down with the colony (though this model was exactly the one used by the Teutonic Knights in Prussia/Levonia a few centuries back so I think it's reasonable). But I don't see any compelling reason for the Hansa not to establish trading networks in the new world.

Tom Veil

May 28th, 2007, 11:40 PM

Which brings me to the finances of Naples. It is camparitivly doing quite well. It controls a large section of the Levant, the straghts of Messina (both of them active areas of trade and commerce) and is one of the premier powers in Italy. It got a lot of Money from the Middle East crusade. It has the Abrabanel banking family to finance all those little domestic projects.

So if it already has access to Asian trade markets, what on earth is its incentive for travelling to the New World?

The Sicilian

May 28th, 2007, 11:54 PM

So if it already has access to Asian trade markets, what on earth is its incentive for travelling to the New World?
That would be because of my future perspective looking back. Because discovery of sources in Asia (China, India, Indonesia) and the Americas, spices and other goods got to Europe through the Atlantic, not the Medditerranean. This reduced the flow of goods and cash through of Italy, and helped end the Renaissance. I was just trying save a little bit of the pre-1492 Italian wealth (by planting little colonies in the Americas), and I realize that that is improbable. I am a stupid noob and I apologize:rolleyes:.

DuQuense

May 29th, 2007, 12:27 AM

And the Abrabanels make up for their losses by being given certain economic advantages, which I haven't named.

OTL Don Issac only stayed two years in Naples, and died broke in Venice in 1505
?Did you write a post changing this.?

Most of the Abravanels were in the Ottomans. They were a lot safer there even when political events changed.

The Sicilian

May 29th, 2007, 12:38 AM

OTL Don Issac only stayed two years in Naples, and died broke in Venice in 1505
?Did you write a post changing this.?

Most of the Abravanels were in the Ottomans. They were a lot safer there even when political events changed.
Yes. Yes I did. He fled to Naples because of the Alhambra decree expelling Jews from Spain. He fled from Naples when the French entered the city during the first of the Italian Wars.

This is changed in this timeline because there are no Italian Wars. He stays in Naples and remains an economic advisor to the king, along with Financing some of his projects.

DuQuense

May 29th, 2007, 12:46 AM

?Does anyone know who the premier Catholic teaching Order was in the 1510's?. The Jesuits are not founded till 1521. [?will they still be?]

AJNolte

May 29th, 2007, 12:53 AM

?Does anyone know who the premier Catholic teaching Order was in the 1510's?. The Jesuits are not founded till 1521. [?will they still be?]

You know, with all the conversions going on, I think it would make sense for a new teaching order to be founded. Can we see about making this happen? (And no, I'm not just saying this because it gives Louise DeMolina an order into which he can safely go, which will allow him to take part in the Salamanca school. Really I'm not...)

marl_d

May 29th, 2007, 12:56 AM

sure....:rolleyes:

Tom Veil

May 29th, 2007, 01:13 AM

The Jesuits are not founded till 1521. [?will they still be?]

Well, whoever controls the Kingdom of Navarre (Drakerlugia, right?) also controls a young man (b. 1491) named Ignatius Loyola (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07639c.htm).

Psychomeltdown

May 29th, 2007, 01:18 AM

'Cept for the 15 or so Atlantic vessals that king Alphonso comissioned for the purpose of New world exploration.
Once again, look at the culture. The reason the Portuguese did so well in India and Spain did so well in the new world in OTL, is that they had a strong naval tradition. They had the ships, they had the MEN, people who grew up serving on ships, captains who could pilot a vessel and knew the dangers that lurked wherever.

It's incredibly dangerous sailing to a new and unexplored area and it takes a skilled crew to make it so that their ship does not crash against reefs, get lost in currents, or sunk during a storm.

The Naples expedition would probably have to be manned by Spanish or Portuguese sailors and probably captained by one of those nations also. it's not that Naples can't do it, it's simply that the Spanish and the Portuguese are the only nations that have had experienced in exploration and moving far and wide from known coastal landmarks.

The Portuguese have had about 100 years of this, since Henry the Navigator, the Spanish have had some, but not as much as Portugal,t he English the same. The Hansa. None. Maples. None.

Naval power is just not about building a lot of ships and sending them out, look at the French. They could never match the Brits on the Ocean. the Hansa and Naples are basically the same, their culture is one of the Med and one of the North Sea. Not one of the Atlantic and one of continual generational naval culture.

Yes, the Hansa have gotten quite rich off the Med trade. The Baltic city states have become a de facto nation (see posts in 1493-9) and they, along with the Teutonic knights, have been steadily building up a navy, partially for the purposes of exploration and partially to counter the Calmarnists, since 1493. The Hanseatic League currently includes the Republic of Lucca, the city of Ostia and Malta, as well as it's German holdings, and enjoys favorable trading relations in Africa and throughout the Med. ?The Teutonic Knights have de facto become a military and missionary component of the Hansa, and have absorbed most of the Levonian order to this purpose. Frederick von Saxon, teutonic grand master, also sold Albertine Saxony to the elector Duke Frederick and dedicated these funds toward the expeditions to the new world. I suggest you go back and carefully reread the Hansa posts if you think it's implausible; we've been building up to this since the beginning of the TL, and doing so quite systematically.
I'll have to bring up the cultural thing again. Hansa, prior to the unification most likely only had limited knowledge of ship building and handling and that was mainly in the Baltic and North Sea, which can be rough for sure, but you'll also have to realize that the Atlantic is quite different from the North and Baltic seas.

Things have been going waaaay too good for the Hansa in the New World and their naval endeavors for a nation that is basically still taking it's baby steps into learning to become a naval power.

If anything, I have a problem with Portugal's claim to all of South America. ITTL there was no Treaty of Tordesillas. The Portuguese OTL got only Brazil, partially because they were distracted with the same kind of stuff in India you're dealing with now. Rich as Portugal is, it can't support a colonial and trade empire in India and
Africa and control all of South America at the same time. The only way I can actually see that working would be an Anglo-Portuguese agreement to divide up the new world between themselves, at which point you'd be at war with Spain and Naples (not to mention the Hansa and much of the HRE).
I agree in that. But then again Portugal has pretty much laid claim to that land when they touched down on it under Dias. Its another thing altogether for another nation to come along and claim it, to do that would be an act of war, on the side of the late comers. to put it simply, first come first served.

ITTL Spanish exploration is considerably slower due to the money and effort invested in the Crusades (this might also effect the Neapolitans; I doubt they'd be able to afford it at all without the funding they gained by selling Malta to the Hansa). However, they could actually be making money off of the wealthy pilgrims as well.
I'm sure the Ottomans will be absorbing the money that is being made off the pilgrims, due to the Spanish having to maintain a heavy military presence there. That would keep a lot of it's attention toward the Med Sea and could allow for Naples and Hansa snatching up smaller pieces of the Caribbean. It's simply a matter of enforcing you claims.

True. Speeding things up relative to what happened in your nation OTL isn't terrible, but it needs to be incremental, and develop in a sensible way.

I agree. The way Portugal is running is simply a bigger military presence in India and East Africa which leads to more audacious attempts at military conquest under men who are known for audacious military victories. It's simply more men and more material to give them a better chance at winning.

It's not redrawing the entire Portuguese way of life, by turning them into calm Med Seas traders to ocean going colonizing powers.

Okay, what I said was an overstatement. My bad. But Naples is in a significantly better position economicly. And the Abrabanels make up for their losses by being given certain economic advantages, which I havent named. Would getting some profits from the Ndongoese mining and ivory poaching be resonable?

Alright, I will scale back colonization. What specific areas do you find unresonable?
I think colonization itself seems unreasonable. Due to the high cost of running a colony and keeping it supplied and keeping it safe. The mining and ivory will help some, but you're not recouping your losses, which in time will probably break your nation.

I still maintain that the Hansa has the incentive:
1. Decline in the Baltic trade has led them to start looking for other markets (for example, their growth in the Med).
2. The Teutonic Knights, still a religious order, are looking for a new area of influence.
3. The loss of money involved in selling Malta was more than recouped with the sail of Albertine Saxony.
4. Hanseatic naval build-up has already been well-established.
5. A political structure (the Wendish Federation) has emerged.
6. Unlike nearly every other colonial power save England, Hansa has had minimal military conflicts (Portugal is fighting in India, Spain and Naples had the crusade).

I can tone things down with the colony (though this model was exactly the one used by the Teutonic Knights in Prussia/Levonia a few centuries back so I think it's reasonable). But I don't see any compelling reason for the Hansa not to establish trading networks in the new world.

1. the Med trade will be dying out soon. due to:
a. the Spanish now controlling jerusalem and what is possibly a continual war with the Ottomans.
b. the Portuguese are basically destroying maritime muslim trade in the Indian Ocean. Plus the Portuguese are able to bring items back to Europe for far cheaper in in loads of TONS.

2Religious order and their goals tend to cost a pretty penny.

3. Selling land is basically robbing peter to pay paul. Germany is basically an agricultural nation, its' wealth lies in it's land. it's not like Portugal who's wealth has to lie in the seas because of it's crappy land, Germany has good farmland, and from there it gains much of it's wealth.

4. naval build up that's basically designed on the ships that were known in the Baltic and North Sea. Portugal, Spain, and other naval countries have had decades and more to learn to build their ships, how to make them strong, and how to handle them.

6. but I'm sure they've been lending money to other nations, Spain for one, which was pretty much broke in OTl due to the conquest of Granada and now with the Crusade... They'll be needing tons of money form other nation and where else to get them than their allies? Naples may lend some, but that's not going to help much, if they're putting a lot of it into exploration and colonization.

So if it already has access to Asian trade markets, what on earth is its incentive for travelling to the New World?
Med trade began in China and India. It went to the Muslims which brought it to the Med. The Portuguese are pretty much crushing arab/muslim trading in India, though piracy and outright attacks. in OTL venice had to finance a joint, egyptian, arab fleet to try and take out the Portuguese, which they failed at. This TL the Portuguese have had better luck and less fighting in India. The unification under the Vijayanagara has managed to allow the Ports a less drawn out fight with Calicut, which in OTL lasted almost 20 years. And they've captured the island of Hormuz and fortified it, which was a major trading port for the Muslim world.

The final thing is how did the Hansa and Naples get the routes to the New World. How did spain even let them get by them?

OTL spain and portugal were completely and utterly distrustful and secretive of their explorations and trade route, they were Top Secret. Spain would not allow them to fall into anyone's hands, no matter how friendly they were with them. And even if they were to go it alone, they have no idea where the currents are or even how to come back. Columbus was damned lucky to be able to make it back at all.

Cabot i can understand, he probably went north to Norasia and then southward, coastal hoping until he got to the Straits of Magellan. Then the caught that big pacific current that took him away from the Incas and western S.A.

but when you're going blind, when you've got ships that aren't the best, and you've got a crew that only has knowledge of ferrying about people, then you're looking for some major bad times. it's a damned scary thing for crews who don't see land for more than two weeks and when you're going to a place you've never seen, never heard about, and only know through either rumors or information that's more unlikely than likely, then it becomes very implausible.

AJNolte

May 29th, 2007, 01:38 AM

1. There won't be post-crusade wars; Ottomans have recognized the de facto independence of the KoJ. Med trade will eventually die down, but for now it's probably actually received a slight spike (all those extra pilgrims).
2. Yeah, religious orders can be expensive, but then again, the Teutonic order is basically providing the muscle for the Hansa, so there's a lot of benefit there too.
3. Cabbot's maps were published in England. And the Hansa have offices there.
4. The Hansa don't depend at all on agriculture. Other than that I can see your point re: land sails, but the point I was trying to make is that buying Malta hasn't set the Hansa back.
5. Ship-building: correct me if I'm wrong, but I think some of my port cities are Atlantic (doesn't Hamburg border both the North and Baltic Seas)? Plus we've learned something about Atlantic travel in the past twenty years, what with the need to get to our Itallian possessions (you have to go through the Atlantic to get from the Baltic to the Med). However, there may be problems with ship-building, so I can scale back the size of the expeditions.
Where exactly has Portugal claimed anything in the new world other than Brazil? Where are you going to find the men and matterials to back up your claim? You'll be stretched so thin that your empire won't last out the half century.
The Hansa do have a naval tradition; they've been running convoys throughout the Baltic (and providing armed escorts for them) for the better part of three centuries by this point. You do have a point re: atlantic versus Baltic naval culture. However, given that the Hansa has been in the Atlantic trade for going on twenty years I think it's reasonable that they'll start giving colonization a try. I could see a subsequent expedition (perhaps the second one) experiencing bad luck. I could even see extremely hard times for the first. I'm not convinced that a Hansa new world expedition is implausible. And I'm definitely not convinced that Portugal has the wherewithall for a settlement on the Cape, a trade empire in India and domination of all of South America, or much of anything beyond Brazil. Portugal is not a hyper-power. OTL Portugal would be a bit player in the colonial game by the end of the century. If Hansa domination of the southern cone this early is unreasonable, then Portuguese expansion beyond Brazil is equally so, and Portuguese claims to all of South America border on the ridiculous.
Once again, look at the culture. The reason the Portuguese did so well in India and Spain did so well in the new world in OTL, is that they had a strong naval tradition. They had the ships, they had the MEN, people who grew up serving on ships, captains who could pilot a vessel and knew the dangers that lurked wherever.

It's incredibly dangerous sailing to a new and unexplored area and it takes a skilled crew to make it so that their ship does not crash against reefs, get lost in currents, or sunk during a storm.

The Naples expedition would probably have to be manned by Spanish or Portuguese sailors and probably captained by one of those nations also. it's not that Naples can't do it, it's simply that the Spanish and the Portuguese are the only nations that have had experienced in exploration and moving far and wide from known coastal landmarks.

The Portuguese have had about 100 years of this, since Henry the Navigator, the Spanish have had some, but not as much as Portugal,t he English the same. The Hansa. None. Maples. None.

Naval power is just not about building a lot of ships and sending them out, look at the French. They could never match the Brits on the Ocean. the Hansa and Naples are basically the same, their culture is one of the Med and one of the North Sea. Not one of the Atlantic and one of continual generational naval culture.

I'll have to bring up the cultural thing again. Hansa, prior to the unification most likely only had limited knowledge of ship building and handling and that was mainly in the Baltic and North Sea, which can be rough for sure, but you'll also have to realize that the Atlantic is quite different from the North and Baltic seas.

Things have been going waaaay too good for the Hansa in the New World and their naval endeavors for a nation that is basically still taking it's baby steps into learning to become a naval power.

I agree in that. But then again Portugal has pretty much laid claim to that land when they touched down on it under Dias. Its another thing altogether for another nation to come along and claim it, to do that would be an act of war, on the side of the late comers. to put it simply, first come first served.

I'm sure the Ottomans will be absorbing the money that is being made off the pilgrims, due to the Spanish having to maintain a heavy military presence there. That would keep a lot of it's attention toward the Med Sea and could allow for Naples and Hansa snatching up smaller pieces of the Caribbean. It's simply a matter of enforcing you claims.

I agree. The way Portugal is running is simply a bigger military presence in India and East Africa which leads to more audacious attempts at military conquest under men who are known for audacious military victories. It's simply more men and more material to give them a better chance at winning.

It's not redrawing the entire Portuguese way of life, by turning them into calm Med Seas traders to ocean going colonizing powers.

I think colonization itself seems unreasonable. Due to the high cost of running a colony and keeping it supplied and keeping it safe. The mining and ivory will help some, but you're not recouping your losses, which in time will probably break your nation.

1. the Med trade will be dying out soon. due to:
a. the Spanish now controlling jerusalem and what is possibly a continual war with the Ottomans.
b. the Portuguese are basically destroying maritime muslim trade in the Indian Ocean. Plus the Portuguese are able to bring items back to Europe for far cheaper in in loads of TONS.

2Religious order and their goals tend to cost a pretty penny.

3. Selling land is basically robbing peter to pay paul. Germany is basically an agricultural nation, its' wealth lies in it's land. it's not like Portugal who's wealth has to lie in the seas because of it's crappy land, Germany has good farmland, and from there it gains much of it's wealth.

4. naval build up that's basically designed on the ships that were known in the Baltic and North Sea. Portugal, Spain, and other naval countries have had decades and more to learn to build their ships, how to make them strong, and how to handle them.

6. but I'm sure they've been lending money to other nations, Spain for one, which was pretty much broke in OTl due to the conquest of Granada and now with the Crusade... They'll be needing tons of money form other nation and where else to get them than their allies? Naples may lend some, but that's not going to help much, if they're putting a lot of it into exploration and colonization.

Med trade began in China and India. It went to the Muslims which brought it to the Med. The Portuguese are pretty much crushing arab/muslim trading in India, though piracy and outright attacks. in OTL venice had to finance a joint, egyptian, arab fleet to try and take out the Portuguese, which they failed at. This TL the Portuguese have had better luck and less fighting in India. The unification under the Vijayanagara has managed to allow the Ports a less drawn out fight with Calicut, which in OTL lasted almost 20 years. And they've captured the island of Hormuz and fortified it, which was a major trading port for the Muslim world.

The final thing is how did the Hansa and Naples get the routes to the New World. How did spain even let them get by them?

OTL spain and portugal were completely and utterly distrustful and secretive of their explorations and trade route, they were Top Secret. Spain would not allow them to fall into anyone's hands, no matter how friendly they were with them. And even if they were to go it alone, they have no idea where the currents are or even how to come back. Columbus was damned lucky to be able to make it back at all.

Cabot i can understand, he probably went north to Norasia and then southward, coastal hoping until he got to the Straits of Magellan. Then the caught that big pacific current that took him away from the Incas and western S.A.

but when you're going blind, when you've got ships that aren't the best, and you've got a crew that only has knowledge of ferrying about people, then you're looking for some major bad times. it's a damned scary thing for crews who don't see land for more than two weeks and when you're going to a place you've never seen, never heard about, and only know through either rumors or information that's more unlikely than likely, then it becomes very implausible.

AJNolte

May 29th, 2007, 01:51 AM

Might I also point out that there was a nation with an overwhelmingly Baltic naval culture which participated--all be it on a small scale--in the colonization game; Denmark. The Dutch also had a 'north sea' naval culture, and they grabbed their fair share of colonies.

marl_d

May 29th, 2007, 01:56 AM

AJNolte

May 29th, 2007, 02:01 AM

The Hansa has a great shipbuilding tradition, they sold most of their ships to other countries, the only problem that they might have is that they lost Livonia (a huge producer of Flax) to the Russians, Pol/Lith, and Kalamar Union, though Riga is a free trading port, doesn't mean that the Hansa gets the best prices anymore.

True: so we'll be looking for other markets and other comodities. But you're absolutely right about the ship-building tradition; Lubeck, Hamburg, Bremen and Wizmer are some of the better shipyards out there.

marl_d

May 29th, 2007, 02:10 AM

i know you guys are all discussing the New World right now, but i'm kinda stuck. you can read what i've posted in the Muscovy/Rus thread, but what i'm really stuck is with what to do with the church

these are the two posts in particular

1506: Dmitriy, having been a supporter of secularization, starts moving the government and church apart. While Dmitriy still supports the Church and in particular the Knights of St. Andrews, he feels that the teachings of the heretical group the Sect of Skhariya the Jew and the teachings of Nil Sorsky are right. Though he knows that he can’t force the ideology on the people let alone the Church. The Support of Nil Sorsky, his teachings, and the losses of church monastic holdings leads to more of a “liberalization” of the church where self rule is taught but the Sect’s ideas of Jesus and the Trinity are dropped as this is far and above anything that the Church can except. These teaching will lead to a Synod in 1508

November 1506: The Church starts to split between those in favor of new ideas being presented by Nil Sorsky and Joseph Volotsky with his outspoken support for the status qua. The two men, bitter rivals for nearly 20 years have many heated debates, many of them public during services.

Vasili in the mean time, while no supporter of Dmitriy’s plans and actions, does not say or do anything. Even with widespread calls from conservative Clergy and Boyars. Instead he has been preparing for his eventual trip to Constantinople where he will take his Great Uncles Crown. He does however, at his nephew’s request, start sending out invitations to the more conservative members of the Church hierarchy and Boyars, offering them places in his court.
(OOC Note: liberal/conservative is more of a RL way of referring to what is happening in the Russian Orthodox Church and not by any means any actual political leaning)

i'd like some input from our wonderful board members (a little sucking up helps :cool::D)

Glen

May 29th, 2007, 02:13 AM

Glen

May 29th, 2007, 02:15 AM

i know you guys are all discussing the New World right now, but i'm kinda stuck. you can read what i've posted in the Muscovy/Rus thread, but what i'm really stuck is with what to do with the church

these are the two posts in particular

i'd like some input from our wonderful board members (a little sucking up helps :cool::D)

Are all these people OTL? I hope so....

DuQuense

May 29th, 2007, 02:22 AM

@ glenPlease post a list of the now defunct events and the new, agreed upon events in the retro thread to assist me in editing the timeline.

The defunct events are the ones I wrote about Da Gama, that you pulled when Meltdown came back.

I accept his revised time-line 1500-1509, as the events of Portugal in India for the decade.

marl_d

May 29th, 2007, 02:23 AM

Are all these people OTL? I hope so....

yes they are

they just got some help :D

The Sicilian

May 29th, 2007, 02:26 AM

Psych, we need a balance here. The Neapolitans and the Hansa are reasonable contenders for a second wave of activity in the New World. Spain so far is seeing Naples as a junior partner, which gives them their 'in'.

The Hansa had a significant ship-building capacity even before 1493. The Caravel and Carrack actually appear to have been developed in the Mediterranean.

Overall, the pieces are there for them to develop this capacity. They may not succeed, and they have a lot to do beforehand, but its within the realm of possibility.
Thank you, O Mighty Glen :D!

The Italians also had a maritime culture, though not a North sea one. You are defiantly right in that they had galleys and short-range vessels in the Mediterranean. It's not that big of a leap to building Caravels. And as I brought up in our PMs, we could have had Portuguese or Spanish crews, or Italians from the Portuguese and Spanish navies ( e.g. Columbus, Vespucci…). So an Italian expedition to the New World (with help from Spain and Hansa) isn't ASB, or so I beleive.

Glen

May 29th, 2007, 02:31 AM

@ glen

The defunct events are the ones I wrote about Da Gama, that you pulled when Meltdown came back.

I accept his revised time-line 1500-1509, as the events of Portugal in India for the decade.

HELP! I really do need you guys, when we are resolving such things, to give a list (or at least link(s) of the actual events to be ignored, the ones to be accepted, and/or the amended events.

Have pity....:)

AJNolte

May 29th, 2007, 02:45 AM

i know you guys are all discussing the New World right now, but i'm kinda stuck. you can read what i've posted in the Muscovy/Rus thread, but what i'm really stuck is with what to do with the church

these are the two posts in particular

i'd like some input from our wonderful board members (a little sucking up helps :cool::D)

If you PM me some info on this particular church controversy I can give you some help. I've got a background (not as in depth as I'd like but still pretty decent) in theology, and I have some friends who can do even more with the Orthodox stuff than I can. So drop me a line and I'll see if I can help.

AJNolte

May 29th, 2007, 02:49 AM

Psych, we need a balance here. The Neapolitans and the Hansa are reasonable contenders for a second wave of activity in the New World. Spain so far is seeing Naples as a junior partner, which gives them their 'in'.

The Hansa had a significant ship-building capacity even before 1493. The Caravel and Carrack actually appear to have been developed in the Mediterranean.

Overall, the pieces are there for them to develop this capacity. They may not succeed, and they have a lot to do beforehand, but its within the realm of possibility.

Thanks Glen. If the Southern Cone is the real problem I'm possibly amenable to having them go somewhere else (though I still think the cone has a lot to recommend it, not least because Cabbot actually published maps of his journeys). I maintain that the cone settlement is plausible. However, if there are other parts of the new world you think are more reasonable I'll be happy to consider focussing somewhere else.

Psychomeltdown

May 29th, 2007, 03:05 AM

Glen

May 29th, 2007, 03:59 AM

I can understand Naples riding shotgun on the Spanish exploration and Maybe Hansa having the ability to launch a fleet and begin exploring, but it's happening much too fast and they're having waaay too much luck in finding these things. I'd suggest slowing them down some, say about a decade or so.

Oh, who's playing the Ottomans and France?

Its the speed of the thing. A decade or two delay would help.

Actually, Naples and the Hansa aren't the worst candidates for joining into the naval race, though as mentioned, they have their own issues to overcome.

Even the Chinese wouldn't be bad, so long as GP really works hard to build up his rationale and personalities for doing so.

However, the ones who are the most shaky, especially for the foreseeable future, are the Africans joining in. Ethiopia is sorta out of left field in their sudden interest, though it could be a response to increased pressure from Portugal, though that is a stretch so far. Ndongo is out of left field entirely, with no nautical history at all to the best of my knowledge, though it does seem that the desire of their nobility to take on some European trappings is consistent with what they did OTL.

On the otherhand, there have been weird things that happened OTL. Spain had been unified for years only, and had just made their last conquest in Iberia when all of a sudden they back a crazy Columbus on a whim and seemingly do well.

The Dutch later success in some ways seems improbable to me sometimes. This tiny nation did remarkably in the scramble for colonies.

And as mentioned already, if Courland can take a Caribbean Island, what isn't possible?:eek:

AJNolte

May 29th, 2007, 04:55 AM

Its the speed of the thing. A decade or two delay would help.

Actually, Naples and the Hansa aren't the worst candidates for joining into the naval race, though as mentioned, they have their own issues to overcome.

Even the Chinese wouldn't be bad, so long as GP really works hard to build up his rationale and personalities for doing so.

However, the ones who are the most shaky, especially for the foreseeable future, are the Africans joining in. Ethiopia is sorta out of left field in their sudden interest, though it could be a response to increased pressure from Portugal, though that is a stretch so far. Ndongo is out of left field entirely, with no nautical history at all to the best of my knowledge, though it does seem that the desire of their nobility to take on some European trappings is consistent with what they did OTL.

On the otherhand, there have been weird things that happened OTL. Spain had been unified for years only, and had just made their last conquest in Iberia when all of a sudden they back a crazy Columbus on a whim and seemingly do well.

The Dutch later success in some ways seems improbable to me sometimes. This tiny nation did remarkably in the scramble for colonies.

And as mentioned already, if Courland can take a Caribbean Island, what isn't possible?:eek:

I'd be amenable to holding off the Hansa expedition for another decade, or alternatively launching a minor trading expedition around 1519, with others potentially to follow. I could even see a couple of failed expeditions somewhere along the way.
That being said, Portugal simply cannot claim anything beyond Brazil; it just isn't feasible to project any more power into South America while fighting for control in India and establishing colonial empires in Africa. That's way too much for a tiny Iberian nation, no matter how good their navy. OTL I think this over-extension contributed to Portugal's decline.
Of course, anything Portugal had OTL in South America is probably fine, but given the extra attention being paid to India here I just don't think grand expansion into South America is going to happen. Given that Spain has also been slowed up, much of South America should probably remain unclaimed (other than perhaps in name only) by any colonial power.

DuQuense

May 29th, 2007, 05:33 AM

1493 First Draft Events for 1500-1509 #94
Except i think you already pulled these

I will let Meltdown give you the link to his timeline.

Glen

May 29th, 2007, 03:39 PM

FYI, your posts are now editable up to a week from when posted.

Use this ability wisely.

The Sicilian

May 29th, 2007, 09:10 PM

AJNolte

May 29th, 2007, 10:40 PM

Since John is having computer issues and may not be back here for a while, AJ and have been given temporary control over his territories. AJ has the Teutonic order and the Duchy of Mecklenburg (maybe). He gave me the Papacy, Papal States, Genoa, Florence and Lucca. So if you wish to talk Reformation, please PM me.

Agreed: I have already done so.

We're very shortly going to have a slight problem. Noyon, the birthplace and home of John Calvin, is in France, and I don't know what happened to our French participants. I actually know a fair bit about the actual Calvin (as opposed to historical constructions done by detractors or supporters), so if someone wants to use him, PM me.

Zwingli is entirely Glen's problem...err, responsibility.

Smaug

May 30th, 2007, 02:24 AM

Thanks Glen. If the Southern Cone is the real problem I'm possibly amenable to having them go somewhere else (though I still think the cone has a lot to recommend it, not least because Cabbot actually published maps of his journeys). I maintain that the cone settlement is plausible. However, if there are other parts of the new world you think are more reasonable I'll be happy to consider focussing somewhere else.

I'd like to make two notes. Wouldn't the Hansa probably have figured out about the fishing grounds off Canada? Surely they'd have heard by now of a place to get game and wood to make repairs.

I also think the Hansa would be OK if they crossed the Atlantic In the North. Carry lots of stuff and leap frog...England, get dirt. Iceland get dirt, and food. Head west. I would'nt give them any sort of Magellan type trip, but there's no reason they couldn't make it to say New Jersey, or maybe Virginia, IMO. This is a very well funded expedition, I would assume, and they would've bought the best sailors they could get. Maybe two years later, hit the Caribbean.

As far as how religion has gone....I'm at a loss, it seems rather wanky. I'm not really affected by it to much except for Africa. I asked about them though. I think everyone, except the Chinese perhaps, wants white man gadgets, I know my places do.

Tom Veil

May 30th, 2007, 02:49 AM

Something else for our explorers to think about: OK, so you've got a boat full of Newfoundland cod, or Maryland crabs. Now what? Can you get it back to market?

Smaug

May 30th, 2007, 03:38 AM

I think everyone, myself included, just wants to see change. Really patience is in order, if we want this to turn out plausible. I'm just ansy cuz I get a late start:)

Glen

May 30th, 2007, 01:25 PM

I'd like to make two notes. Wouldn't the Hansa probably have figured out about the fishing grounds off Canada? Surely they'd have heard by now of a place to get game and wood to make repairs.

I also think the Hansa would be OK if they crossed the Atlantic In the North. Carry lots of stuff and leap frog...England, get dirt. Iceland get dirt, and food. Head west. I would'nt give them any sort of Magellan type trip, but there's no reason they couldn't make it to say New Jersey, or maybe Virginia, IMO. This is a very well funded expedition, I would assume, and they would've bought the best sailors they could get. Maybe two years later, hit the Caribbean.

As far as how religion has gone....I'm at a loss, it seems rather wanky. I'm not really affected by it to much except for Africa. I asked about them though. I think everyone, except the Chinese perhaps, wants white man gadgets, I know my places do.

If the Hansa start to try establishing independent trade in Norasia, I am afraid that England's generous agreement regarding retailing of furs in Northern Europe will have to be re-appraised, and the status of the London enclave as well.....

Glen

May 30th, 2007, 01:26 PM

Something else for our explorers to think about: OK, so you've got a boat full of Newfoundland cod, or Maryland crabs. Now what? Can you get it back to market?

The fish shouldn't be an issue, as European fishers were doing just that in Newfoundland OTL.

Don't think the Maryland crabs would hold up so well, though.

marl_d

May 30th, 2007, 04:32 PM

fish can be dried for shipping, crabs....probably not, though i could be wrong

Tom Veil

May 30th, 2007, 05:13 PM

Yes, but you'll be selling dried fish, which will earn you less on the market than fresh fish. Obviously the financial problem is not insurmountable, but it's one of the reasons that there was a 150-year gap between First Contact and mass colonization on the North Atlantic coast.

AJNolte

May 30th, 2007, 10:06 PM

If the Hansa start to try establishing independent trade in Norasia, I am afraid that England's generous agreement regarding retailing of furs in Northern Europe will have to be re-appraised, and the status of the London enclave as well.....

Exactly why we tried to avoid your sphere of influence. Pissing off the Portuguese, or even the Spanish, doesn't bother the Hansa much, but the English are a major trade partner. So if we have to poach we'll burn bridges that aren't in our back yard thanks.

That being said, if there's part of NA that Glen hasn't gobbled up in his voracious trade post establishing, I'd be amenable to going there instead.

Glen

May 31st, 2007, 02:54 AM

Exactly why we tried to avoid your sphere of influence. Pissing off the Portuguese, or even the Spanish, doesn't bother the Hansa much, but the English are a major trade partner. So if we have to poach we'll burn bridges that aren't in our back yard thanks.

That being said, if there's part of NA that Glen hasn't gobbled up in his voracious trade post establishing, I'd be amenable to going there instead.

I admit I'm a victim of my own success. In playing out the ramifications of more successful Cabots, its becoming more and more apparent that once some of these things happen, there's going to be a likely response from the English.:eek:

Glen

May 31st, 2007, 02:59 AM

General writing comment (and I will try to obey it as well). Do not project into the future with your entries (unless its a retro event referring to an already established event in the timeline). Try to avoid things like 'will come to be known' or 'which will be the' and things of that nature.

Glen

May 31st, 2007, 03:22 AM

BlackMage

May 31st, 2007, 03:30 AM

Assume for now that these nations are acting more or less like OTL, but try to avoid mention of their internal affairs. International affairs that deeply touch on you can be addressed, and we will just have to make the best decision we can if they can't pop in after a PM sent and a few days pass.

That's what I'm doing with Malacca, for now-my attempts in researching it have proved disappointing.

I'll have the updated, streamlined Yolgnu and Gowa (retconned extensively) entries up by Saturday.

Smaug

May 31st, 2007, 03:35 AM

Exactly why we tried to avoid your sphere of influence. Pissing off the Portuguese, or even the Spanish, doesn't bother the Hansa much, but the English are a major trade partner. So if we have to poach we'll burn bridges that aren't in our back yard thanks.

That being said, if there's part of NA that Glen hasn't gobbled up in his voracious trade post establishing, I'd be amenable to going there instead.

All I meant to suggest was that it was a bit more logical way of sailing the first 1 or 2 times by the Hansa. By than they can by charts from someone. Hell, they're rich!

Glen

May 31st, 2007, 04:09 AM

I'm thinking of changing my made-up Bristol-Norasia Company for the Society of Merchant Venturers, which wikipedia at least suggests was the OTL supporters of the Cabot Expedition.

Hmmm....Fort Venture!:D

AJNolte

May 31st, 2007, 04:42 AM

All I meant to suggest was that it was a bit more logical way of sailing the first 1 or 2 times by the Hansa. By than they can by charts from someone. Hell, they're rich!

No, you're 100 percent correct. However, we're going to have a situation ITTL which is almost 100 percent the reverse of OTL. OTL Spain locked up mmost of South America, leaving a scramble for North America in which England was only 1 participant. Now it appears as though "England has locked up most of North America, but because of some internal (Cem's Moorish revolt) and external (the Crusade) events, Spain hasn't been able to consolidate it's influence quite so quickly.

Note: I think Cabbot's sail around the cape is reasonable. However, I think England could run the risk of dangerously over-extending if you try to claim too much in Latin America. Same, as I've said, with Portugal. So large portions of South America are wide open for trade and colonization.

Also: the lack of Tordesillas leaves South America wide open.

Finally, it's worth noting that the Dutch and Danish both colonized parts of the Caribbean and Central America.

Tell me if this sounds reasonable. OTL the Virgin Islands were colonized by Denmark, a power which faces many of the constraints which Psychomeltdown and others have placed on the Hansa. I think it's reasonable for the Hansa to land on and claim these, or perhaps another small chain of caribbean islands as an initial tow-hold in the new world. From there, well, if we can expand we will, if not we won't, but we'll let the hand of fait and the timeline determine that. Alternatively, we can buy them from the slightly cash-strapped Spanish. Since I am the cash-strapped Spanish I could just do this, but I want to clear it for plausibility first so that I can get back to writing my various national events.

Psychomeltdown

May 31st, 2007, 06:51 AM

No, you're 100 percent correct. However, we're going to have a situation ITTL which is almost 100 percent the reverse of OTL. OTL Spain locked up mmost of South America, leaving a scramble for North America in which England was only 1 participant. Now it appears as though "England has locked up most of North America, but because of some internal (Cem's Moorish revolt) and external (the Crusade) events, Spain hasn't been able to consolidate it's influence quite so quickly.

[quote]Note: I think Cabbot's sail around the cape is reasonable. However, I think England could run the risk of dangerously over-extending if you try to claim too much in Latin America. Same, as I've said, with Portugal. So large portions of South America are wide open for trade and colonization.
True.

Also: the lack of Tordesillas leaves South America wide open. The treaty divided up the world between Portugal and Spain. but lack of being signed basically leaves it to first come first served, in the claiming game. The reason i've been saying Portugal says it's claiming all of South America is simply due to the fact that under Dias, they managed to chart and explore much of it's Eastern coastal regions, thereby landing and laying claim to it in the name of the crown.

Again its another thing for them to enforce that claim.

Tell me if this sounds reasonable. OTL the Virgin Islands were colonized by Denmark, a power which faces many of the constraints which Psychomeltdown and others have placed on the Hansa. I think it's reasonable for the Hansa to land on and claim these, or perhaps another small chain of caribbean islands as an initial tow-hold in the new world. From there, well, if we can expand we will, if not we won't, but we'll let the hand of fait and the timeline determine that. Alternatively, we can buy them from the slightly cash-strapped Spanish. Since I am the cash-strapped Spanish I could just do this, but I want to clear it for plausibility first so that I can get back to writing my various national events.

I would think that Spain is more than slightly cash strapped. Even if it did sale Sicily and some of it's territories, it fought an exhausting war to win back Granada and then fought another one to gain a hold of Jerusalem, in the span of less than a decade. On top of that it's stilling maintaining a presence in the New World and it has to keep a larger military, WITHOUT the gold and riches that were taken from the Aztec and Inca empires. So you're looking at a nation that's on the brink of bankruptcy, no matter how much money Hansa or Naples shoves into it.

Also added to that, the Med. Sea trade is nigh about drying up, therefore Naples is going to be losing a lot of it's cash flow and thereby that'll also make Spain weaker, due to the fact that the two nations are heavily tied together, military and financially.

Hansa may lend Spain money, but how long can that go on? They may be rich, but they're not rich enough to support one massively military country and another smaller one which are both in desperate need of money by 1515.

The only way i can see Spain digging it's way out of the hole its gone into is, either selling more territory or completely dismantling it's military and shove all that money into rebuilding it's infrastructure.

Hansa could buy the colonies of Spain, but why would they? Colonies are supposed to be about making money, or in the case of Portugal in the New World, protecting what is yours. If they're not making money, then they're just losing money and that's a massive hemorrhaging of money for your kingdom (everything has to be imported to most colonies for the first couple of years).

By buying Spain's colonies, enough of them to get Spain out of debt with some of its collectors, that would pretty much mean that Hansa will have to fork over a massive amount of money. After that it would still mean a lot of more money spent maintaining the colonies, building them up, and building enough ships and hiring enough personnel to make them prosper.

pompejus

May 31st, 2007, 10:14 AM

Could someone PM me a summary of the vents that happened in the HRE, in France and with the reformation? It is hard to look through all the events in all the threads.

KineticBots

May 31st, 2007, 10:58 AM

Comment on missing participants.

We have a number of people missing from the project. While life happens, we can't wait indefinitely. However, I suspect many of these absences are due to it being the end of the year for some students. I propose that we wait until the end of the first or second week in June before taking more drastic actions.

Assume for now that these nations are acting more or less like OTL, but try to avoid mention of their internal affairs. International affairs that deeply touch on you can be addressed, and we will just have to make the best decision we can if they can't pop in after a PM sent and a few days pass.

I suggest that if the missing participants have abandoned the project we be allowed to post retcons for timelines in areas where those participants' nations were involved. It only seems fair that if we were waiting on a response or reaction that didn't come because the participant is not with us that things would have taken a different course. And isn't that the purpose of this entire project??

Glen, I'll await your response.

Regards,
KineticBots

Tom Veil

May 31st, 2007, 12:48 PM

Exactly why we tried to avoid your sphere of influence. Pissing off the Portuguese, or even the Spanish, doesn't bother the Hansa much, but the English are a major trade partner. So if we have to poach we'll burn bridges that aren't in our back yard thanks.

That being said, if there's part of NA that Glen hasn't gobbled up in his voracious trade post establishing, I'd be amenable to going there instead.
Glen's Cabot may have discovered all of Atlantic NA, but all he's trading in so far is fur and vanilla. That leaves plenty of openings. There's a big prize, for instance, to whomever can introduce Andean potatoes or Atlantic corn to the European diet.

AJNolte

May 31st, 2007, 01:18 PM

[quote=AJNolte;1106505]No, you're 100 percent correct. However, we're going to have a situation ITTL which is almost 100 percent the reverse of OTL. OTL Spain locked up mmost of South America, leaving a scramble for North America in which England was only 1 participant. Now it appears as though "England has locked up most of North America, but because of some internal (Cem's Moorish revolt) and external (the Crusade) events, Spain hasn't been able to consolidate it's influence quite so quickly.

True.

The treaty divided up the world between Portugal and Spain. but lack of being signed basically leaves it to first come first served, in the claiming game. The reason i've been saying Portugal says it's claiming all of South America is simply due to the fact that under Dias, they managed to chart and explore much of it's Eastern coastal regions, thereby landing and laying claim to it in the name of the crown.

Again its another thing for them to enforce that claim.

I would think that Spain is more than slightly cash strapped. Even if it did sale Sicily and some of it's territories, it fought an exhausting war to win back Granada and then fought another one to gain a hold of Jerusalem, in the span of less than a decade. On top of that it's stilling maintaining a presence in the New World and it has to keep a larger military, WITHOUT the gold and riches that were taken from the Aztec and Inca empires. So you're looking at a nation that's on the brink of bankruptcy, no matter how much money Hansa or Naples shoves into it.

Also added to that, the Med. Sea trade is nigh about drying up, therefore Naples is going to be losing a lot of it's cash flow and thereby that'll also make Spain weaker, due to the fact that the two nations are heavily tied together, military and financially.

Hansa may lend Spain money, but how long can that go on? They may be rich, but they're not rich enough to support one massively military country and another smaller one which are both in desperate need of money by 1515.

The only way i can see Spain digging it's way out of the hole its gone into is, either selling more territory or completely dismantling it's military and shove all that money into rebuilding it's infrastructure.

Hansa could buy the colonies of Spain, but why would they? Colonies are supposed to be about making money, or in the case of Portugal in the New World, protecting what is yours. If they're not making money, then they're just losing money and that's a massive hemorrhaging of money for your kingdom (everything has to be imported to most colonies for the first couple of years).

By buying Spain's colonies, enough of them to get Spain out of debt with some of its collectors, that would pretty much mean that Hansa will have to fork over a massive amount of money. After that it would still mean a lot of more money spent maintaining the colonies, building them up, and building enough ships and hiring enough personnel to make them prosper.

Spain has--from a colonial perspective--expanded very slowly. About the only thing it's taken thus far is the Caribbean. Also Spain's total expendetures from the crusades weren't quite as high as you'd imagine. That said, you're right about the acute cash flow problem.
As for the Hansa buying colonies: I was only thinking they'd buy maybe 1 colony, or an island or island chain claimed by Spain. From there they can explore the new world and create trade networks. We're even willing to cut people in on part of the profit if they've claimed an area. Perhaps just one big Caribbean island, along the Maltese model. Barbados? Jamaica? Maybe the Camans?

Spain's need for cash has given me an interesting idea. Smaug (and anyone else with Mexican tribes who aren't the Aztecs, or who are the Aztecs for that matter), please PM me.

AJNolte

May 31st, 2007, 01:21 PM

Glen's Cabot may have discovered all of Atlantic NA, but all he's trading in so far is fur and vanilla. That leaves plenty of openings. There's a big prize, for instance, to whomever can introduce Andean potatoes or Atlantic corn to the European diet.

What say you Glen: how about a Hansa monopoly on shipping "agricultural products" to Germany? It could be something inserted sort of as an afterthought to the bever pelt agreement perhaps??

And yes, I wanted the southern cone so I could trade with the Inca and get their potato. I'm still planning to trade with them, one way or another. Portugal; if you can convince the Hansa that you really have claimed the place we'll cut you in.

Glen

May 31st, 2007, 02:23 PM

Glen

May 31st, 2007, 02:28 PM

I suggest that if the missing participants have abandoned the project we be allowed to post retcons for timelines in areas where those participants' nations were involved. It only seems fair that if we were waiting on a response or reaction that didn't come because the participant is not with us that things would have taken a different course. And isn't that the purpose of this entire project??

Glen, I'll await your response.

Regards,
KineticBots

There will be no large Retcons if possible, at least not of things we've already established. On the other hand, if you work within continuity, there's lots of things that can be retroactively posted.

And remember, while I am resisting people playing with their internal politics, you can always try and act unilaterally on a participant's area. If you have a reason to invade them, then post it. The group will play it out as best we can based on extrapolations of OTL reactions, just like with NPCs. Still pm people and then the 48 hour rule applies.

We'll work it out.

Glen

May 31st, 2007, 02:30 PM

Glen's Cabot may have discovered all of Atlantic NA, but all he's trading in so far is fur and vanilla. That leaves plenty of openings. There's a big prize, for instance, to whomever can introduce Andean potatoes or Atlantic corn to the European diet.

Introducing crops growable in Europe will be a huge deal, but not as trade, but as exports, since you're going to want to grow those at home rather than importing them from overseas. Unless its a crop that won't grow elsewhere.

Unfortunately, I will have to start importing tobacco soon. Its not a cash crop likely to be missed.:(

Glen

May 31st, 2007, 02:34 PM

What say you Glen: how about a Hansa monopoly on shipping "agricultural products" to Germany? It could be something inserted sort of as an afterthought to the bever pelt agreement perhaps??

And yes, I wanted the southern cone so I could trade with the Inca and get their potato. I'm still planning to trade with them, one way or another. Portugal; if you can convince the Hansa that you really have claimed the place we'll cut you in.

We are willing to cut in the Hansa as distributors in Germany (basically retailers). Its good for you as you get access to products without the work, and its good for us because we don't have to establish new trading networks on the continent that would take time and money.

Quite frankly, the Hansa stand to make more money as distributors for the English Companies in Europe than they would trying to establish their own trans-Atlantic trade.

AJNolte

May 31st, 2007, 02:51 PM

We are willing to cut in the Hansa as distributors in Germany (basically retailers). Its good for you as you get access to products without the work, and its good for us because we don't have to establish new trading networks on the continent that would take time and money.

Quite frankly, the Hansa stand to make more money as distributors for the English Companies in Europe than they would trying to establish their own trans-Atlantic trade.
Consider it done: we'll be your continental retailers, and pick up some small Caribbean colonies now to explore further trading possibilities in South America.

Glen

May 31st, 2007, 02:53 PM

Consider it done: we'll be your continental retailers, and pick up some small Caribbean colonies now to explore further trading possibilities in South America.

That works for me, at least. Both for what I'm trying to do and for plausibility.

Go through the London Hansa factors as the go-between.

AJNolte

May 31st, 2007, 03:02 PM

That works for me, at least. Both for what I'm trying to do and for plausibility.

Go through the London Hansa factors as the go-between.

So, any recommendations on a nice Caribbean island?

Glen

May 31st, 2007, 05:49 PM

So, any recommendations on a nice Caribbean island?

Oh, they're all pretty nice, mon.:)

Glen

May 31st, 2007, 05:52 PM

Aussey

May 31st, 2007, 06:09 PM

Tom Veil

May 31st, 2007, 06:46 PM

Introducing crops growable in Europe will be a huge deal, but not as trade, but as exports, since you're going to want to grow those at home rather than importing them from overseas. Unless its a crop that won't grow elsewhere.

Unfortunately, I will have to start importing tobacco soon. Its not a cash crop likely to be missed.:(
Actually, if Tobacco_mosaic_virus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_mosaic_virus) strikes at the same time that smallpox hits southeast Norasia, it could set back the European discovery of tobacco by several decades, because no one will be around to tend to the crops.

Psychomeltdown

May 31st, 2007, 08:57 PM

I need some critiques over the new Ndongo-Matamba posting.

I also need some ideas as to what to do. There's really severe resistance to Europeans and Catholicism in the innerlands, but I don't want to make them have to constantly be dealing with that.

Also- what else should Ndongo-Matamba, and Kongo for that matter, be doing as stronger-than-IOTL-Catholic-African-nations? Should we just be focused on conquering and converting? Or something else?

Unfortunately you're drawing too much European attention, in this case that off the Portuguese.

Portugal has an trade empire to protect. That means it can't allow for any other nation to get a hold onto Africa and thereby threaten it's continued prosperity. Spain and Naples are trading heavily with the Kongo kingdoms, this makes Portugal feel threatened.

Naples or Spain can't begin setting up colonies, especially close to the Cape of Good Hope or else Portugal will feel that they're trying to butt in on their territory and their trade, that will unfortunately have to lead to war.

Disease. There's a reason that AFrica wasn't outright settled and conquered in OTL and disease had a big thing to do with it. A pretty brutal disease will sweep through the Kongo Kingdoms, then into Spain and Naples, into portugal, into France, Italy, Hansa, and England.

Psychomeltdown

May 31st, 2007, 10:01 PM

Aussey

May 31st, 2007, 10:17 PM

Aussey,

How far has Ndongo-Matamba advanced in the last decade, say by 1514?

Unfortunately, this has some not so good consequences when it comes to dealing with the Portuguese.

Manoel has been creating a very commercial and very militaristic nation that basically has spent the last 15 years getting rich off the India Trade. It's got a fleet of merchants that will be spreading everywhere trying to make money hand over fist, that means they'll be coming after the Ndongo-Matamba trade.

What I mean by not so good consequences is that the Portuguese have had about 15 years of experience dealing with AFricans and that has managed to solidify their view of Africans as being pushovers and weak. Which means that your first encounters with the Portuguese Merchants will be one of them attacking your harbors and demanding complete trade concessions..

They'll attack, even if you're a Christian nation, it's not religion they're after or care about, it's money and the Kongo region is brimming with possibilities of them getting rich. So what are the Kongo's reaction in 1513 when a fleet of Merchants pull up and begin demanding complete control over trade coming in and out of the Kongo?

The Kongo? You'd have to ask AJ how the Kongo and their Spanish protectors would react.

We have Europeanized (I dont like to say "modernized") more than IOTL, but are in no ways completely Europeanized.

I know that in Ndongo-Matamba, we have Portugese visit us in 1483, and a few missionaries stay. Ndongo embraced Catholicism, Matamba did not. When 1500s came around and the Portugese had STILL not come back for a second visit, we sent a delegation which toured Europe, and thats how we found our Neapolitan protectors, and our trade is dominated now by Naples, Hansa, Kongo, and Spain, as well as inner African nations.

If Portugal hadnt neglected us, there would have been no need for us to find other European allies. So my response to your invasion is, I'd have to ask our European allies (Spain, Naples-Sicily-Jerusalem, Hansa, and of course the Pope,) for help.

IOTL, Portugal didnt start interacting with the Ndongolese and Matambans until the 17th century. You're mainly playing with the Kongo- THATS where you were really centered. You might want to be talking to AJ about this merchant invasion thing.

:)

The Sicilian

May 31st, 2007, 10:46 PM

The Sicilian

May 31st, 2007, 11:17 PM

If Portugal hadnt neglected us, there would have been no need for us to find other European allies. So my response to your invasion is, I'd have to ask our European allies (Spain, Naples-Sicily-Jerusalem, Hansa, and of course the Pope,) for help.

In this hypothetical situation the Sicilian king and hte Holy Father would of course come to your aid.

Glen

May 31st, 2007, 11:53 PM

AJ, Keenir and Ramiero could go into a little more detail than this but the gist of it is that the Ottomans got the shit kicked out of them from three directions and the Kingdom of Jerusalem is the Western Crusader's piece of the pie. Naples had a claim to the throne of Jerusalem so it seemed fitting (IIRC also the Crusaders got Alexandria; AJ, who exactly controls that).

And besides, the Ottomans got Mecc and Medina. Who cares if the godless barbarian Europeans got Jerusalem:p?!

Who cares if some godless barbarian Europeans get the third Holiest city in Islam? Hmmm....:rolleyes:

AJNolte

June 1st, 2007, 12:01 AM

Okay, gang, I'm a little confused, and have been too busy to really follow this properly.

Can someone explain to me the deal why the Ottoman are allowing Italians to take over the Holy Land? I understand wanting help getting one up on the Mamalukes, but it seems odd to have an Islamic leader doing this, at least in the way I've been trying to follow.

Can someone explain a little more of the details on this for me?:confused:

The answer probably goes back to DAubusson. Just how neck deep he was in plotting won't be revealed for a while (I want to release the 'secret history' of DAubusson in a few centuries, because it will create some great conspiracy theories). The basicreason is simple. During their mutual expedition to crush the pirates in Helecarnassus, the Sultan approached DAubusson regarding a motus vivendi, mainly to stop the running soar that the Rhodeans had been on his flank for quite a while. He informed DAubusson of his intent to seek battle against the Mamluks, and asked DAubusson for help. The price which DAubusson set for his help was restoration of Jerusalem, because only such a goal could possibly enduce crusader knights like the Rhodeans to ally with a Muslim prince. DAubusson claimed that he could provide more forces from other Christian powers, in the event that they were allowed Jerusalem. The Sultan agreed, and so DAubusson and the Rhodeans, supported by the Spanish, launched a devastating surprise attack on Jerusalem which captured it and cut the Mamluk armies in Syria off from Egypt. The Neapolitans arrived the next year, and Alphonso declared himself king of Jerusalem. I can't speak for the Sultan, but I doubt he was pleased. However, the drubbing he and the Christians inflicted on the Mamluks--and probably the weakened state of his armies in it's waik (not to mention the diplomacy of DAubusson) helped make the survival of the KoJ happen. Alphonso was forced to promise the Sultan (now Ahmed not Bayazid) support against any of his Muslim enemies and to guarantee the freedom of the Muslim holy places.

That's the brief outline, but I can give you more info if you want it (privately, or at least, off-timeline).

AJNolte

June 1st, 2007, 12:11 AM

Aussey,

How far has Ndongo-Matamba advanced in the last decade, say by 1514?

Unfortunately, this has some not so good consequences when it comes to dealing with the Portuguese.

Manoel has been creating a very commercial and very militaristic nation that basically has spent the last 15 years getting rich off the India Trade. It's got a fleet of merchants that will be spreading everywhere trying to make money hand over fist, that means they'll be coming after the Ndongo-Matamba trade.

What I mean by not so good consequences is that the Portuguese have had about 15 years of experience dealing with AFricans and that has managed to solidify their view of Africans as being pushovers and weak. Which means that your first encounters with the Portuguese Merchants will be one of them attacking your harbors and demanding complete trade concessions..

They'll attack, even if you're a Christian nation, it's not religion they're after or care about, it's money and the Kongo region is brimming with possibilities of them getting rich. So what are the Kongo's reaction in 1513 when a fleet of Merchants pull up and begin demanding complete control over trade coming in and out of the Kongo?

I can tell you that Spain's been looking to take Portugal down about five or six pegs. We've been hording our own military strength. Whatever advantages you have or think you have in navy, our army is better than yours BTW, and we're a bigger nation. You've been getting rich, and we'd like in on it, so I think an overland invasion of Portugal for your "unprovoked attack on a fellow Christian nation and internal degradation of the Catholic faith" would probably be the immediate result. You've been almost completely focussed on naval build-up, so your army will probably get the crap kicked out of it. Then things will get really interesting. Like you said, your navy is better...so, who can say? If things get bad enough, we might even ally with the Ottomans (or Naples might, since attacking them and/or their interests might possibly be considered an attack on one of the Ottoman's vassals). I don't know, are you confident in your ability to overpower Spain, Naples and the Ottoman Empire (the Sultan is pist at you for attacking the Yemmenis anyway, so he would definitely jump in).

So don't mess with Ndongo or Kongo: Spain will see it as an act of war.

Glen

June 1st, 2007, 12:32 AM

AJNolte

June 1st, 2007, 12:42 AM

I guess then the problem is, what is to stop Ahmed from attacking the 'crusaders' (BTW, you REALLY can't use that name around the Islamic world, might as well call yourselves devils) once this happens? This could get convoluted.

I'm not saying things have to change, but if they are to stay as is, we need to see more compelling reasons thus far?

Of course the term Crusaders is a popular term used mainly in Europe.

The real problem will be once DAubusson dies. He was able to carry off a lot of the alliances on personality alone. However, there are a lot of compelling reasons--after DAubusson--not to attack.
1. The area is mostly Catholic anyway. Recall that the Maronites have moved in, and most of the Muslims have moved out.
2. Internally in the Ottoman empire, the pressure has been to fight other Muslim nations and establish a preeminent Ottoman position in the Muslim world.
3. Alphonso has pledged his support against any Muslim enemies the Ottomans might face. The Ottomans are making a profit off the pilgrims. Piracy from the Hospitalers has stopped. Finally, The Sultan has, um, other directions of expansion in mind. Why bother with Jerusalem? It may be "the third holiest sight in Islam"--but it's a distant third behind Mecca and Madina, and in allowing the Christians to keep it Ahmed has basically bought himself peace with the Christian world. The Christians aren't about to try to expand their beachhead (they aren't stupid, though later generations might be), and aside from the shrines of Islam--which are by treaty autonomous territories held in trust by local Muslim families--it's really not worth that much.

marl_d

June 1st, 2007, 12:45 AM

didn't he also set it up that the Dome is under Muslim control?

AJNolte

June 1st, 2007, 12:48 AM

didn't he also set it up that the Dome is underMuslim control?

Yes, under the control of the family into whose care Saladin gave the keys to the church of the Holy Sepulcher.

Psychomeltdown

June 1st, 2007, 12:53 AM

I can tell you that Spain's been looking to take Portugal down about five or six pegs. We've been hording our own military strength. Whatever advantages you have or think you have in navy, our army is better than yours BTW, and we're a bigger nation. You've been getting rich, and we'd like in on it, so I think an overland invasion of Portugal for your "unprovoked attack on a fellow Christian nation and internal degradation of the Catholic faith" would probably be the immediate result. You've been almost completely focussed on naval build-up, so your army will probably get the crap kicked out of it. Then things will get really interesting. Like you said, your navy is better...so, who can say? If things get bad enough, we might even ally with the Ottomans (or Naples might, since attacking them and/or their interests might possibly be considered an attack on one of the Ottoman's vassals). I don't know, are you confident in your ability to overpower Spain, Naples and the Ottoman Empire (the Sultan is pist at you for attacking the Yemmenis anyway, so he would definitely jump in).

So don't mess with Ndongo or Kongo: Spain will see it as an act of war.

Well, you've stated yourself that Spain was financially strapped for cash. That means even though it'll have a big army, it'll probably be one that's not in the best of shape or the one that's not as well armed as say a nation that has the money to spend upon arming it's own internal forces.

I've already stated that the Portuguese have been building up their Navy and their Armies, mainly due to the fact that Manoel is fast becoming a paranoid guy, he's seen the shadows of the Church trying to take over and his own fears of the nobles growing in power once more. that same paranoia and the realization that they've been making a hell of a lot of money while their neighbors look on coveting the lucrative India trade, has guided Manoel into protecting his boarders and his cities from outside attack. It's not a difficult thing to see, when you're paranoid. :D

Although Portugal may not field an army as large as Spain it's still one that's not to be trifled with, plus their position will be mainly one of defense, whilst the Spanish would be one of attacking and sieging their strong points. And at this time. sieges could take years and the cost A LOT of money. There's a reason why when you read up on history that armies only marched in the couple of thousands and not the hundreds of thousands we're used to reading about.

Money is the key, money for equipment, money for training, money for maintaining, etc. Spain has been losing money since the beginning of the century and earlier. it's still losing money on it's colonies, it lost a lot of it when it went on their crusade, and it lost a lot of generating power when it sold off it's territories.

The Hansa and Naples might be able to lend them money, but things aren't the best for them either. Hansa, no matter how close of allies they are, can't keep afloat a kingdom that's hemorrhaging money, and Naples should be losing a lot of it's incoming wealth through the drying up of trade from the Muslims and India (Portugal pirating and attacks upon the Arab shipping through most of the early 1500s managed to basically wipe out a lot of its competition, the Bharata Empire allowed them the use of their ports as bases against the Arab traders).

I keep seeming to bring up the topic of money. It seems like i keep repeating myself when i do. :) but money makes the empires function and money wins the day.

AJNolte

June 1st, 2007, 01:27 AM

Well, you've stated yourself that Spain was financially strapped for cash. That means even though it'll have a big army, it'll probably be one that's not in the best of shape or the one that's not as well armed as say a nation that has the money to spend upon arming it's own internal forces.

I've already stated that the Portuguese have been building up their Navy and their Armies, mainly due to the fact that Manoel is fast becoming a paranoid guy, he's seen the shadows of the Church trying to take over and his own fears of the nobles growing in power once more. that same paranoia and the realization that they've been making a hell of a lot of money while their neighbors look on coveting the lucrative India trade, has guided Manoel into protecting his boarders and his cities from outside attack. It's not a difficult thing to see, when you're paranoid. :D

Although Portugal may not field an army as large as Spain it's still one that's not to be trifled with, plus their position will be mainly one of defense, whilst the Spanish would be one of attacking and sieging their strong points. And at this time. sieges could take years and the cost A LOT of money. There's a reason why when you read up on history that armies only marched in the couple of thousands and not the hundreds of thousands we're used to reading about.

Money is the key, money for equipment, money for training, money for maintaining, etc. Spain has been losing money since the beginning of the century and earlier. it's still losing money on it's colonies, it lost a lot of it when it went on their crusade, and it lost a lot of generating power when it sold off it's territories.

The Hansa and Naples might be able to lend them money, but things aren't the best for them either. Hansa, no matter how close of allies they are, can't keep afloat a kingdom that's hemorrhaging money, and Naples should be losing a lot of it's incoming wealth through the drying up of trade from the Muslims and India (Portugal pirating and attacks upon the Arab shipping through most of the early 1500s managed to basically wipe out a lot of its competition, the Bharata Empire allowed them the use of their ports as bases against the Arab traders).

I keep seeming to bring up the topic of money. It seems like i keep repeating myself when i do. :) but money makes the empires function and money wins the day.

1. Um, how many times do I have to tell you: Spain did not lose money on the crusades?
2. The reason Spain's cash-strapped is because of the military build-up.
3. Their colonization has been much less OTL.
4. You keep talking about money then acting like Portugal's got it growing on trees. You can't conquer large parts of India, large parts of the new world, plant colonies in Africa, build a world-class navy and have a world class army on a sixteenth-century mercantilist economy. Not to mention your canals, cities, universities, hospitals, etc. Something's got to give. Portugal is not a super-power.
3. Spain has been making money on the trade with Kongo and Ndongo as well; part of the reason you were trying to take them back in the first place.
4. Naples and the Ottomans (not to mention the Yemmenis) are likely to jump on your back the minute Spain attacks you. Just how many brushfires can you put out?

Psychomeltdown

June 1st, 2007, 02:30 AM

1. Um, how many times do I have to tell you: Spain did not lose money on the crusades?
2. The reason Spain's cash-strapped is because of the military build-up.
3. Their colonization has been much less OTL.
4. You keep talking about money then acting like Portugal's got it growing on trees. You can't conquer large parts of India, large parts of the new world, plant colonies in Africa, build a world-class navy and have a world class army on a sixteenth-century mercantilist economy. Not to mention your canals, cities, universities, hospitals, etc. Something's got to give. Portugal is not a super-power.
3. Spain has been making money on the trade with Kongo and Ndongo as well; part of the reason you were trying to take them back in the first place.
4. Naples and the Ottomans (not to mention the Yemmenis) are likely to jump on your back the minute Spain attacks you. Just how many brushfires can you put out?

1. Well the whole Crusades thing needs to be clarified more. If you're involved in a military action against a foreign nation, how is i that you don't lose any money? it's nigh impossible. You can help finance an expedition, an army, but not to lose any money when you're talking about armies and conquests does not compute. Wars are costly things, even if there's a large amount of booty involved and financial backing, it's still gonna cost a lot.

2. If Spain has been building up its' military since the early 1500s then it'll be not just cash strapped, it'll be a massive military that's basically garritroopers. Spain has been basically at peace since the Crusade.

3. True.

4. Portugal didn't conqueror large parts of india, in fact ITTL they didn't really do anything military like in India at all. The Vijaranagara empire and the Bharata Empire were already in existence and they already had control over the area. the Portuguese just clashed lightly with Calicut, but then that nation was absorbed by the VE. Goa was given to the Portuguese and Cochin welcomed them. The only big military action so far has been against Hormuz and Malacca, with simple pirating along the Arab coast and the occasional colonial flare up in East Africa. There hasn't been constant fighting as there was in OTL India, instead it's a more unified place and one where the Portuguese managed to get a foothold without doing much fighting.

Portugal has had basically a monopoly for the last decade on the India Trade, which has been very lucrative. It's also been investing a lot into its own infrastructure, more ships mean more trade, more soldiers mean less chances of revolt. Then there is the fact that Portugal has a population of over a million people. Compared to England and other nations that number well over 5 million. The reason they're able to afford spending money on hospitals and universities and the like is for the simple reason that they're brining in a lot of money and they've only got a small population to worry about, which is being heavily concentrated toward the coastal regions due to the high demand for workers. Added to that, a lot of funding was cut to the Portuguese Catholic Church, thereby weakening them and also saving a lot of money, in OTL Manoel spent A LOT of money on funding missionaries and building grandiose cathedrals. There's also a much bigger middle class of merchants and traders, and a focus on commerce.

They've got a geographically small nation, they've got a small population that's densely populated toward the coasts and toward the big cities of Porto and Lisbon, and they've got a monopoly on trade coming from India.

3. True.

4. But wars fought with the ottomans, Yemens, and Naples would be more a naval war, since there is no way for the Ottomans to land troops in Portugal, the Yemens can't really hope to bring the war to the Portuguese since they're not really welcomed in India, hence the Bharata allowing the Portuguese to use their ports as bases against the Arab trading. Spain will be a major problem, but how long can it pursue a war when it's sole tides to trade are snipped away?

The Sicilian

June 1st, 2007, 02:46 AM

How long can Portugal maintain a war where most of its population and territory is under foreign occupation? Don't fool yourself; in a land war the Spanish would beat you.

Psychomeltdown

June 1st, 2007, 03:20 AM

How long can Portugal maintain a war where most of its population and territory is under foreign occupation? Don't fool yourself; in a land war the Spanish would beat you.

You know at this time and age most armies only numbered in to the low tens fo thousands? 20-30 thousand being the biggest armies. and that pitched battles rarely happened unless the two forces maneuvered into the right position and place at the right time. Siege warfare was the mainstay of battle and those took months if not years to complete, and when that was done, there were more fortresses and more fortified towns and cities that needed to be toppled also.

Southern Portugal could probably be taken, but only after a long and probably exhausting fight by both sides. It's the place with the larger population density and the place where most of the military forces would be located, along with the defenses. The northern parts of Portugal are fairly mountainous and less developed in the ways of roads and whatnot.

Spain would have to come over land through Southern Portugal, it would have to face lines of fortresses and it would have to lay siege to them and break them before moving onward. They'll have to be living off the land because logistics would be a nightmare due to bad roads and forces left behind to attack them, they'll have no help from the sea, as the Portuguese navy will be managing to hold it's own there.

With the financial situation of Spain and the logistics situation in Portugal you're looking at a number of about 20000 soldiers, although Portugal might not be able to field an equal amount, they'll be able to field near the same amount and they'll be behind fortresses and they'll have a better logistics handle on things compared to the Spanish.

AJNolte

June 1st, 2007, 04:05 AM

You know at this time and age most armies only numbered in to the low tens fo thousands? 20-30 thousand being the biggest armies. and that pitched battles rarely happened unless the two forces maneuvered into the right position and place at the right time. Siege warfare was the mainstay of battle and those took months if not years to complete, and when that was done, there were more fortresses and more fortified towns and cities that needed to be toppled also.

Southern Portugal could probably be taken, but only after a long and probably exhausting fight by both sides. It's the place with the larger population density and the place where most of the military forces would be located, along with the defenses. The northern parts of Portugal are fairly mountainous and less developed in the ways of roads and whatnot.

Spain would have to come over land through Southern Portugal, it would have to face lines of fortresses and it would have to lay siege to them and break them before moving onward. They'll have to be living off the land because logistics would be a nightmare due to bad roads and forces left behind to attack them, they'll have no help from the sea, as the Portuguese navy will be managing to hold it's own there.

With the financial situation of Spain and the logistics situation in Portugal you're looking at a number of about 20000 soldiers, although Portugal might not be able to field an equal amount, they'll be able to field near the same amount and they'll be behind fortresses and they'll have a better logistics handle on things compared to the Spanish.
1. Spain will be using a high percentage of arquebussiers (or at least gunners) as compared to your armies.
2. How will you react when the Pope excommunicates Manuel for attempting to brutally exploit fellow Catholics, and not forgetting your deportation of massive numbers of priests? You've undoubtedly angered substantial segments of your population; stirring them up to revolt shouldn't be that difficult.
3. In a naval battle between Spain and Portugal we'd be outclassed. But if we brought in Naples and the Ottomans? If Spanish pirates began raiding your new world and Indian trade?

Then there's that little matter of fighting a war--much of it in dense jungle--against Kongolese and Ndongolese troops who are battle-hardened and know the terrain way better than you do. A war which will be hampered by the fact that the Spanish will be hitting you at home. And what's to stop the Indians from taking the opportunity of your destraction to kick you out?

Look, it's not as though Kongo and Ndongo are closed to Portuguese interest and trade. But if Portugal tries to treat them like de facto colonies it's going to pay a heavy price.

Psychomeltdown

June 1st, 2007, 04:42 AM

1. Spain will be using a high percentage of arquebussiers (or at least gunners) as compared to your armies.
2. How will you react when the Pope excommunicates Manuel for attempting to brutally exploit fellow Catholics, and not forgetting your deportation of massive numbers of priests? You've undoubtedly angered substantial segments of your population; stirring them up to revolt shouldn't be that difficult.
3. In a naval battle between Spain and Portugal we'd be outclassed. But if we brought in Naples and the Ottomans? If Spanish pirates began raiding your new world and Indian trade?

Then there's that little matter of fighting a war--much of it in dense jungle--against Kongolese and Ndongolese troops who are battle-hardened and know the terrain way better than you do. A war which will be hampered by the fact that the Spanish will be hitting you at home. And what's to stop the Indians from taking the opportunity of your destraction to kick you out?

Look, it's not as though Kongo and Ndongo are closed to Portuguese interest and trade. But if Portugal tries to treat them like de facto colonies it's going to pay a heavy price.

1. How high can they go and how much will it cost them? Again it's siege work that'll basically win the war, and it'll be cannons you'll be needing, which means you'll have a hell of a time trying to keep them in powder and shot. Plus arquebuses aren't a win all, they're lousy shots, they don't work in the rain, and unlike sword and spear, they need constant shot and powder. But then again Portugal will most likely have a fair amount of arquebussiers.

2. Hmm.. Well seeing as how the Pope seems to be in your pocket, they'll most likely see it as a fairly sad attempt at provoking some reaction out of the populace. and as for revolt, although some may be horrified at the idea and angered by the actions of Manoel, there has been basically a decade long purging of people who aren't loyal to the crown.

Plus the Pope seemed never really to care about the brutal exploitation of Catholics, in OTL. Hell, natives in the New world were catholics but they were still killed by the thousands.

3. It is true that the Portuguese claims are far and wide apart and that pirates could sneak into areas that aren't effectively under our control, but that could be said for any nation. It'll hurt, but they can't get every ship, not if they're fighting at home. Again Naples and the Ottomans are basically Med Sea powers, which means the mainstay of their fleets are galleys and the like. Galleys were the mainstay of the ships that traded throughout the Med Sea.

Naples may have bought some carvels and carracks and have set up small colonies in the New World does not make them a powerful navy. A lot of it has to do with experience and tradition. Portugal has a long naval tradition and has had experience fighting in India, although it's own experience is limited in fighting European style vessels, Spain has had almost no experience in fighting a naval campaign in 15 years, Naples has had none in the same, beyond ferrying troops or whatnot, and Hansa has had absolutely zero.

Portugal is not foolish, although they are arrogant and they do believe they are the world's greatest people, they are not foolish. If there was a war being fought in Europe, then they would certainly abandon the War in the Kongo/wherever. It's in Europe that things get resolved. If they win, they'll come back and start up where they left off. Plus the War in Central Africa will be about the same as the battles in East Africa. They would take the coastal cities and ports.

marl_d

June 1st, 2007, 01:55 PM

just remember that the big ships are vulnerable to galleys do to their being small and able to ram which was a big part of naval warfare at the time, plus there are those pesky fireships that the Ottomans were pretty damn good at usiing...

though this is turning into a "my dad can beat up your dad" argument.

AJNolte

June 1st, 2007, 02:02 PM

1. How high can they go and how much will it cost them? Again it's siege work that'll basically win the war, and it'll be cannons you'll be needing, which means you'll have a hell of a time trying to keep them in powder and shot. Plus arquebuses aren't a win all, they're lousy shots, they don't work in the rain, and unlike sword and spear, they need constant shot and powder. But then again Portugal will most likely have a fair amount of arquebussiers.

2. Hmm.. Well seeing as how the Pope seems to be in your pocket, they'll most likely see it as a fairly sad attempt at provoking some reaction out of the populace. and as for revolt, although some may be horrified at the idea and angered by the actions of Manoel, there has been basically a decade long purging of people who aren't loyal to the crown.

Plus the Pope seemed never really to care about the brutal exploitation of Catholics, in OTL. Hell, natives in the New world were catholics but they were still killed by the thousands.

3. It is true that the Portuguese claims are far and wide apart and that pirates could sneak into areas that aren't effectively under our control, but that could be said for any nation. It'll hurt, but they can't get every ship, not if they're fighting at home. Again Naples and the Ottomans are basically Med Sea powers, which means the mainstay of their fleets are galleys and the like. Galleys were the mainstay of the ships that traded throughout the Med Sea.

Naples may have bought some carvels and carracks and have set up small colonies in the New World does not make them a powerful navy. A lot of it has to do with experience and tradition. Portugal has a long naval tradition and has had experience fighting in India, although it's own experience is limited in fighting European style vessels, Spain has had almost no experience in fighting a naval campaign in 15 years, Naples has had none in the same, beyond ferrying troops or whatnot, and Hansa has had absolutely zero.

Portugal is not foolish, although they are arrogant and they do believe they are the world's greatest people, they are not foolish. If there was a war being fought in Europe, then they would certainly abandon the War in the Kongo/wherever. It's in Europe that things get resolved. If they win, they'll come back and start up where they left off. Plus the War in Central Africa will be about the same as the battles in East Africa. They would take the coastal cities and ports.

Well, in all fairness, the Pope is in Messiniano's pocket not mine. <g>

The question is, is it really worth the cost of a war for Portugal to get a monopoly on the trade from Kongo and Ndongo, when they already have open access to this trade? It doesn't seem smart to me, but it's your country.

Aussey

June 1st, 2007, 03:24 PM

Well, in all fairness, the Pope is in Messiniano's pocket not mine. <g>

The question is, is it really worth the cost of a war for Portugal to get a monopoly on the trade from Kongo and Ndongo, when they already have open access to this trade? It doesn't seem smart to me, but it's your country.

Kongolese and Ndongolese trade are open to whoever wants to trade with us. In Ndongo, it's just the ivory and diamonds that are strictly Neapolitan.

The only thing that has changes in Subsaharan-Catholic Africa is the influencing powers- Spain and Naples have replaced Portugal. Portugal visited the area in 1483, and didn't return until the 1500's IOTL, what trade did they need there? Until slavery.

Slavery hasn't been broughten up yet, so there will be different attitudes about it. There's nothing of extreme value in Kongo and Ndongo that you cant find in other parts of the Portugese empire.

Don't waste your time, money, and men. Besides- ports and coastal towns in this part of Africa aren't on the coast persay...there on plateus that you reach by sailing into smaller ships in a river. :D

The Sicilian

June 1st, 2007, 08:05 PM

Kongolese and Ndongolese trade are open to whoever wants to trade with us. In Ndongo, it's just the ivory and diamonds that are strictly Neapolitan.

I believe our arrangement was everything 10 miles inland is Neapolitan economic territory.

Psychomeltdown

June 2nd, 2007, 01:40 AM

You know there is something I forgot to add. Distribution of the Spices, silks, and textiles brought over from india and China (via India) in Europe. In OTL, the low countries were the place where the Portuguese set up their distribution centers, causing an influx of wealth and stimulating their economy. But when Portugal and Spain unified in the later 16th century and the Dutch became more protestant, then it was shifted southward to Belgium. There went their share of the Spice trade and much of their economic ability.

I think i'll have to add some in the retro events about this.

Smaug

June 2nd, 2007, 04:08 AM

Kongolese and Ndongolese trade are open to whoever wants to trade with us. In Ndongo, it's just the ivory and diamonds that are strictly Neapolitan.

The only thing that has changes in Subsaharan-Catholic Africa is the influencing powers- Spain and Naples have replaced Portugal. Portugal visited the area in 1483, and didn't return until the 1500's IOTL, what trade did they need there? Until slavery.

Slavery hasn't been broughten up yet, so there will be different attitudes about it. There's nothing of extreme value in Kongo and Ndongo that you cant find in other parts of the Portugese empire.

Don't waste your time, money, and men. Besides- ports and coastal towns in this part of Africa aren't on the coast persay...there on plateus that you reach by sailing into smaller ships in a river. :D

I brought up slavery somewhere... But I control Benin, and thats thier forte right now. I have requested a christian/catholic delegation however. I want some of these cool things I've heard about from the traders.

Psychomeltdown

June 2nd, 2007, 04:49 AM

I brought up slavery somewhere... But I control Benin, and thats thier forte right now. I have requested a christian/catholic delegation however. I want some of these cool things I've heard about from the traders.

Well Portugal is looking for a foothold into Western Africa, therefore they'll be willing to trade

1. Guns
2. manufactured goods
3. tools

for slaves to work in their mines and port cities along East Africa and South Africa.

Glen

June 2nd, 2007, 12:05 PM

Proposal:

I propose that we pause the timeline progression for the next week. Freeze our advance at 1520.

The purpose of this is threefold:

1) Give us time to work together to build our basemap, which still hasn't happened, as well as to make our change maps based on it.

2) We've been talking here and in PM about doing some work to alter entries to make them more plausible. We need the extra time to digest that discussion and refurbish the events to reflect that work.

3) Time for me and some help to clean up the present threads and get the events into the rough draft timeline.

Let me be clear in that this pause will NOT be extended beyond the week. While it is worth our time at this early juncture to pause to digest the lessons of our first three weeks of work, we also must keep our momentum going. I believe a week is reasonable, but we won't go beyond that. A side benefit of the week pause is it also gives a bit more time for people to get back from their end of school activities and back in the game (retro events, here we come).

What do you think?

AJNolte

June 2nd, 2007, 12:55 PM

Sounds reasonable so long as:
1. It's only for a week.
2. We're careful about retcons and retro-events. It frustrates me that some events which have been in the TL since the beginning are getting questioned two weeks later. We need to establish a procedure for taking care of this sooner, and we also need a deadline after which point people who have claims but haven't participated will lose them, just for the sake of continuity of the TL.

Anyway, this pause sounds like a good idea.

Psychomeltdown

June 2nd, 2007, 01:28 PM

I agree, we need time to consolidate and hash out some other plausibility stuff. Some things may be going a bit too fast and some things are wildly divergent compared to OTL values, culture, and thoughts.

Sounds reasonable so long as:
2. We're careful about retcons and retro-events. It frustrates me that some events which have been in the TL since the beginning are getting questioned two weeks later. We need to establish a procedure for taking care of this sooner, and we also need a deadline after which point people who have claims but haven't participated will lose them, just for the sake of continuity of the TL.
.

A lot of it has to do with the buried TLs that aren't organized in any real manner. Take the Spain TL, there's no actual TL from beginning to end, instead it's simply a bunch of smaller posts scattered throughout the discussion and whatnot.

We need a consolidation. Of Timelines, of maps, of who's running what country, etc.

I don't even know the boarders of Naples, of the Hansa, or where the Ottomans or Poles, or French have gone. There's a lot of information that's lacking and a lot of information that needs to be known to for other people to get the handle of what's going on.

I suggest that every nation make a complete TL and post it under their nation's name. As DQ has been doing and various others.

Discussion should also be broken up into continents or areas, not one big discussion thread that tends to get cluttered as three different conversations are going on. Separating them by geographical location would be good, since it would allow people to know what's going on in various areas without having to dig through large amount of posts.

i think first draft TLs should be a minimum of 5 years, not the small year by year clumps that are sometimes posted and get buried. There's a reason it's called first draft, if it clashes with anyone else's, then those two parties can work it out, not privately, but publicly, so that everyone can understand what's going on and comment on the plausibility of the event occurring.

marl_d

June 2nd, 2007, 04:24 PM

it would also be nice if people commented on areas outside of where they are at. personally i've only really received comments on Russia from AJ and a little bit from Glen. This is my first collaborative TL and would like more feedback from others, especially those who are more knowledgeable about a time period or place to help those like me or Vulacantrekkie who are new to these.

on a side note i'm going to be starting a new job on the 11th, and my computer time might be kind interment for the next couple of weeks

DuQuense

June 4th, 2007, 03:03 AM

Also, how're we going to do wars in this TL?

And this timeline needs a war, and this period of time had lots of them.

First whe Declare War [Causa Belli] make one up.

Then I think whe should look at what you had OTL at this point and see how you think ATL has changed it.
Post listing your resourses
Then the oppenent will post his reponse, and
whe all comment on the probillity of the changes. and on the possible outcomes.
Then the two sides try to come to a agreement. and write a joint Timeline about the war
If not--
Then the Mods decide what happened. and the two sides write the joint timeline.

Keenir

June 4th, 2007, 03:14 AM

it would also be nice if people commented on areas outside of where they are at.

my only question about where you're going with the Russians, is this: what is this new Orthodox denomination's view on the Bible being bound in gold and precious gems?

on a side note i'm going to be starting a new job on the 11th, and my computer time might be kind interment for the next couple of weeks

congrats on the job!

as for the computer: ow.

Psychomeltdown

June 4th, 2007, 03:30 PM

First whe Declare War [Causa Belli] make one up.

Then I think whe should look at what you had OTL at this point and see how you think ATL has changed it.
Post listing your resourses
Then the oppenent will post his reponse, and
whe all comment on the probillity of the changes. and on the possible outcomes.
Then the two sides try to come to a agreement. and write a joint Timeline about the war
If not--
Then the Mods decide what happened. and the two sides write the joint timeline.

I agree, there has been too much peace. Europe was basically torn asunder by wars happening yearly. there were more years of being at war than there were of being at peace.

therefore in the year 1517, Portugal will enter pirating actions against vessels that aren't theirs operating in Africa. They'll demand complete trade control for all import and exports coming into C. Africa, the kicking out of the Spanish, Naples, and any other European nation from the kingdoms in Central AFrica.

marl_d

June 4th, 2007, 05:31 PM

my only question about where you're going with the Russians, is this: what is this new Orthodox denomination's view on the Bible being bound in gold and precious gems?

congrats on the job!

as for the computer: ow.

as for the Bible....not sure yet....i was thinking of doing a Gutenberg type thing and have someone start printing it, though it needs to be translated into Russian. the Sosrky's probably don't like it, seeing as they are a more "back to basics" type group.

Thanks, i'll be making a lot more money than now, just wont have a lot of computer time...

AJNolte

June 4th, 2007, 08:51 PM

No need: I basically just declared war on you for Spain.

No need. I basically just declared war on you.Psychomeltdown;1111304]I agree, there has been too much peace. Europe was basically torn asunder by wars happening yearly. there were more years of being at war than there were of being at peace.

therefore in the year 1517, Portugal will enter pirating actions against vessels that aren't theirs operating in Africa. They'll demand complete trade control for all import and exports coming into C. Africa, the kicking out of the Spanish, Naples, and any other European nation from the kingdoms in Central AFrica.[/quote]

RCTFI

June 5th, 2007, 04:33 PM

I was thinking of having something along the lines of an earlier 30 Years War as the northern provinces of the HRE break away from the south over the whole Heinrich Schneider thing. Just wondering...

AJNolte

June 5th, 2007, 07:17 PM

Um, might not be necessary, depending on how the reformation goes.

Glen

June 6th, 2007, 06:24 PM

Okay folks, I need everyone helping with the timeline review. For the next few days, I'm going to go ahead and lock the other threads while we pause to consider the events already posted previously in the timeline review thread. If you see anything that is questionable with regards to plausibility, I want to hear it there.

I will also leave the map room open as we are also to be working on a map.

Glen

June 6th, 2007, 06:31 PM

I am also going to ask Oth and Sion for some help cleaning up the threads, moving current discussions here, and old discussions to the Archive thread.

Keenir

June 6th, 2007, 06:38 PM

I am also going to ask Oth and Sion for some help cleaning up the threads, moving current discussions here, and old discussions to the Archive thread.

why can't the old discussions simply be kept in this folder? that way, we know where they are.

Glen

June 6th, 2007, 06:44 PM

why can't the old discussions simply be kept in this folder? that way, we know where they are.

Because it can make searching for newer information more difficult if there's tons of old material present. You'll know where they are in the archive, won't you?

Keenir

June 6th, 2007, 06:51 PM

Because it can make searching for newer information more difficult if there's tons of old material present. You'll know where they are in the archive, won't you?

not if you keep moving them!

Glen

June 6th, 2007, 07:17 PM

not if you keep moving them!

How about moving any discussion that is more than a month old? Would that do?

Keenir

June 6th, 2007, 09:46 PM

How about moving any discussion that is more than a month old? Would that do?

you keep saying that you've got a lot to do, a lot of work on this project...and then you make even more work for yourself. it doesn't make sense.

Glen

June 6th, 2007, 10:02 PM

you keep saying that you've got a lot to do, a lot of work on this project...and then you make even more work for yourself. it doesn't make sense.

The better things are set up to run, the smoother it will run, and the less work it will take.

I'm looking to have this work well over a year's time, not just for this week.

One of the criticisms of previous projects like this is that the Discussion thread became so long that it scared off people from reading the discussion. That's why I've set it up this time with a view to archiving older posts.

That explain things?

Keenir

June 6th, 2007, 10:23 PM

The better things are set up to run, the smoother it will run, and the less work it will take.

so far, we have to write (roughly) five copies of each of our posts. how is that less work?

One of the criticisms of previous projects like this is that the Discussion thread became so long that it scared off people from reading the discussion. That's why I've set it up this time with a view to archiving older posts.

That explain things?

if you keep moving things from one folder to another, that only benefits those who are reading these discussions as the discussions are happening.

it doesn't reduce at all the length of the archived discussions, though it might make them harder to find.

Glen

June 7th, 2007, 02:05 AM

I'm sick, been so for days now.

Work is picking up pace as I am taking care of the inpatient service.

Basically, I need help and some slack.

Just letting people know.

Keenir

June 7th, 2007, 02:36 AM

I'm sick, been so for days now.

take your time, our friend. your recovery is more important than this writing and-or game.

Glen

June 8th, 2007, 09:56 PM

One thing that is taking a long time is just collecting and putting in a single year all the draft events.

I was thinking that if we could have each person volunteer to take one or two of the years remaining to put them into a single post, that would help speed things up a lot.

For the years 1500-1509, I've been searching with the year of interest first the second draft thread, then the first draft for things that might have been missed, then the retro thread. If you want to borrow their formatting, you can always hit quote, delete the quote bits, then select all, copy, then cancel your response and instead add it to a new post for the timeline review thread that you'd have open in a different window. Once the rough draft of the year was together, submit it in the timeline review, and we could then review it for plausibility.

We could even start pulling together in similar fashion the 1510-1520 entries if people are so inclined.

If you're interested in helping in this way, first tell us here what year(s) you're taking, so we don't have duplication of effort.

In furtherence of this, I will unlock the threads.

Glen

June 8th, 2007, 11:47 PM

I am currently working on 1505.

One thing that is taking a long time is just collecting and putting in a single year all the draft events.

I was thinking that if we could have each person volunteer to take one or two of the years remaining to put them into a single post, that would help speed things up a lot.

For the years 1500-1509, I've been searching with the year of interest first the second draft thread, then the first draft for things that might have been missed, then the retro thread. If you want to borrow their formatting, you can always hit quote, delete the quote bits, then select all, copy, then cancel your response and instead add it to a new post for the timeline review thread that you'd have open in a different window. Once the rough draft of the year was together, submit it in the timeline review, and we could then review it for plausibility.

We could even start pulling together in similar fashion the 1510-1520 entries if people are so inclined.

If you're interested in helping in this way, first tell us here what year(s) you're taking, so we don't have duplication of effort.

In furtherence of this, I will unlock the threads.

Glen

June 9th, 2007, 12:28 AM

I am now going to start work on 1506. Can I get anyone to help???

(See Below for Details)

One thing that is taking a long time is just collecting and putting in a single year all the draft events.

I was thinking that if we could have each person volunteer to take one or two of the years remaining to put them into a single post, that would help speed things up a lot.

For the years 1500-1509, I've been searching with the year of interest first the second draft thread, then the first draft for things that might have been missed, then the retro thread. If you want to borrow their formatting, you can always hit quote, delete the quote bits, then select all, copy, then cancel your response and instead add it to a new post for the timeline review thread that you'd have open in a different window. Once the rough draft of the year was together, submit it in the timeline review, and we could then review it for plausibility.

We could even start pulling together in similar fashion the 1510-1520 entries if people are so inclined.

If you're interested in helping in this way, first tell us here what year(s) you're taking, so we don't have duplication of effort.

In furtherence of this, I will unlock the threads.

Keenir

June 9th, 2007, 12:59 AM

I am now going to start work on 1506. Can I get anyone to help???

(See Below for Details)

here's everything from 1509:

1509: Ships from Messina land on the Ferrantean (Mississippi) river delta.

1509: Ships from Messina land on the Ferrantean (Mississippi) river delta.

DAubusson's death in 1509,

1509: Ships from Messina land on the Ferrantean (Mississippi) river delta.

The Neapolitan expedition returns to their base at Messina (Havana). They leave behind several dozen soldiers and priests at Forte Altavilla.

England:
December 1509 25:
Addendum. The new King Arthur the Second has the title, ‘King of the Britons’ added to those of the coronation ceremony.

Muscovy/Russia

July 1507-1509: Nil Sorsky decides to start evangelizing to the peasants. He tells his “Sorskivtes” that he will be leaving for the Russian countryside teaching, preaching, living off what the Lord provides. He does not ask any of them to follow him, but would not reject any company. A small band of 20 set out to preach the about reforming and going back to a simpler, apostleistic approach to God.

This move is at first seen as a bit of a joke by the Hierarchy, particularly Joseph Volotsky, until Sorskivites gain strength through the peasant population and lower clergy. Hoping to crush the heresy, the Josephineians start a smear campaign against Sorsky and his followers.

During this time, the Sorskivtes develop the reformations basic doctrines, while most don’t differ from the Orthodox, such as the Trinity, Iconography, the Resurrection, the infallibility of the Bible and the Orthodoxy’s idea’s on “Sola scriptura”. However the reformers believe that the Individual only way to God is through ones own inner world and personal emotional experiences of faith, Monks should use their time for productive labor, a modest lifestyle as well as going about seeing to the peasants and those that are sick and unable to care for themselves.

A group of Sorskivites takes it upon themselves to start learning what they can to treat the sick and heal using Christ as an example. They also glean what they can from Local healers and star experimenting with different cures for various ailments.

1509: A peasant brings his 7-year-old son, Alik, to the Knights of St Andrew. The Grand Master asks why he doesn’t send him to a Monastery instead, the father replies that he did but they threw him out because he kept escaping and was leading the other boys on “crusades” to route out the heathen Mongols. The boy is very intelligent and absorbs everything he’s learned, but is undisciplined and vivid imagination, and can’t be controlled. The Grand Master accepts the young Alik, and keeps an eye on the boy.

1509
Manoel I sends out ships to explore the lands discovered by Diaz in 1502.

De Gama sends out ships to a place called Malacca. The Portuguese under Lorenco De Almeida discover Malacca and tell tales of the major trading going on there. A captain named Ferdinand Magellan dies in Malacca after taking ill. Lorenco De Almeida explores in and around Malacca for the next year.

20 ships under Francisco De Almeida arrive to reinforce De Gama.

De Albuquerque successfully returns from fortifying and laying claim to Hormuz.

De Gama strikes a deal with the Vijayanagara Empire as one of it’s provinces rises up in rebellion. They’ll provide horses and artillery for the Vijayanagara in return for Goa. De Gama sends De Albuquerque and De Almeida to Yemen to raid it for what’s needed and pirate among the Arab ships.

De Albuquerque launches an attack upon Aden, in Yemen. After brutal fighting the city is taken, but not for long as reinforcements manage to drive the Portuguese out, but not after taking what they came for.

De Almeida ravages the Arab shipping along the Yemen and Oman coasts.

Japan
1509: Ouchi Yoshioki rallies clans from around his home province of Suo who are loyal to Shogun Ashikaga Yoshitane. Pro Ouchi/Ashikaga clan leaders talk of forming a league to protect the unstable Shogunate, and their own positions of power in western Japan.

1509. the Muisca have made thier way to the Orinoco Delta. Many fortified trading posts are built in the area. After this they will fortify the coastal areas aginst the Caribs, and turn inwards in regards to extending thier trading network.

1509 - Marriage of Helene, daughter of Philip the Upright, Elector of the Palatine.

Marrying two of his daughters to the biggest patriarchs of the Rhenish free cities helps, but just as big (if not a bigger) factor was the Elector’s ordering the construction (on his nickel) of new/repaired churches for all those cities who wished one built/repaired (the ‘/’ denotes, basically, “whichever was more in need”)…The end result is the free cities come under Philip’s umbrella of protective authority.

At the final meeting of the Thirds (the Wendish, Rhenish, Teutonic Knights) before the dawn of the 1510 decade, Philip assures the heads of the Hansa that these cities are still free cities. The churches and cathedrals built and repaired, mind, are staunchly pro-Papacy, pointedly denouncing the teachings of Wettin.

1509: Emperor Ahmed calls for volunteers from every sanjak in the Empire; these men will form the nucleus of a series of settlements (and bases) along the Red Sea coast of Arabia. There will be no settlements in the Holy City, of course. Most of the settlers are Footmen and Exemptees.

1509: Emperor Ahmed calls for volunteers from every sanjak in the Empire; these men will form the nucleus of a series of settlements (and bases) along the Red Sea coast of Arabia. There will be no settlements in the Holy City, of course. Most of the settlers are Footmen and Exemptees.

1509: A peasant brings his 7-year-old son, Alik, to the Knights of St Andrew. The Grand Master asks why he doesn’t send him to a Monastery instead, the father replies that he did but they threw him out because he kept escaping and was leading the other boys on “crusades” to route out the heathen Mongols. The boy is very intelligent and absorbs everything he’s learned, but is undisciplined and vivid imagination, and can’t be controlled. The Grand Master accepts the young Alik, and keeps an eye on the boy.

1509: Emperor Ahmed calls for volunteers from every sanjak in the Empire; these men will form the nucleus of a series of settlements (and bases) along the best coastal spots of the Red Sea coast of Arabia. There will be no settlements in the Holy City, of course. Most of the settlers are Footmen and Exemptees.

Glen

June 9th, 2007, 01:09 AM

Thanks! I do think we're missing one or two things (note that you only have the addendum for the English 1509 events).

I'll copy this over to the timeline review after we post 1506, 1507, and 1508.

here's everything from 1509:

1509: Ships from Messina land on the Ferrantean (Mississippi) river delta.

1509: Ships from Messina land on the Ferrantean (Mississippi) river delta.

DAubusson's death in 1509,

1509: Ships from Messina land on the Ferrantean (Mississippi) river delta.

The Neapolitan expedition returns to their base at Messina (Havana). They leave behind several dozen soldiers and priests at Forte Altavilla.

England:
December 1509 25:
Addendum. The new King Arthur the Second has the title, ‘King of the Britons’ added to those of the coronation ceremony.

Muscovy/Russia

July 1507-1509: Nil Sorsky decides to start evangelizing to the peasants. He tells his “Sorskivtes” that he will be leaving for the Russian countryside teaching, preaching, living off what the Lord provides. He does not ask any of them to follow him, but would not reject any company. A small band of 20 set out to preach the about reforming and going back to a simpler, apostleistic approach to God.

This move is at first seen as a bit of a joke by the Hierarchy, particularly Joseph Volotsky, until Sorskivites gain strength through the peasant population and lower clergy. Hoping to crush the heresy, the Josephineians start a smear campaign against Sorsky and his followers.

During this time, the Sorskivtes develop the reformations basic doctrines, while most don’t differ from the Orthodox, such as the Trinity, Iconography, the Resurrection, the infallibility of the Bible and the Orthodoxy’s idea’s on “Sola scriptura”. However the reformers believe that the Individual only way to God is through ones own inner world and personal emotional experiences of faith, Monks should use their time for productive labor, a modest lifestyle as well as going about seeing to the peasants and those that are sick and unable to care for themselves.

A group of Sorskivites takes it upon themselves to start learning what they can to treat the sick and heal using Christ as an example. They also glean what they can from Local healers and star experimenting with different cures for various ailments.

1509: A peasant brings his 7-year-old son, Alik, to the Knights of St Andrew. The Grand Master asks why he doesn’t send him to a Monastery instead, the father replies that he did but they threw him out because he kept escaping and was leading the other boys on “crusades” to route out the heathen Mongols. The boy is very intelligent and absorbs everything he’s learned, but is undisciplined and vivid imagination, and can’t be controlled. The Grand Master accepts the young Alik, and keeps an eye on the boy.

1509
Manoel I sends out ships to explore the lands discovered by Diaz in 1502.

De Gama sends out ships to a place called Malacca. The Portuguese under Lorenco De Almeida discover Malacca and tell tales of the major trading going on there. A captain named Ferdinand Magellan dies in Malacca after taking ill. Lorenco De Almeida explores in and around Malacca for the next year.

20 ships under Francisco De Almeida arrive to reinforce De Gama.

De Albuquerque successfully returns from fortifying and laying claim to Hormuz.

De Gama strikes a deal with the Vijayanagara Empire as one of it’s provinces rises up in rebellion. They’ll provide horses and artillery for the Vijayanagara in return for Goa. De Gama sends De Albuquerque and De Almeida to Yemen to raid it for what’s needed and pirate among the Arab ships.

De Albuquerque launches an attack upon Aden, in Yemen. After brutal fighting the city is taken, but not for long as reinforcements manage to drive the Portuguese out, but not after taking what they came for.

De Almeida ravages the Arab shipping along the Yemen and Oman coasts.

Japan
1509: Ouchi Yoshioki rallies clans from around his home province of Suo who are loyal to Shogun Ashikaga Yoshitane. Pro Ouchi/Ashikaga clan leaders talk of forming a league to protect the unstable Shogunate, and their own positions of power in western Japan.

1509. the Muisca have made thier way to the Orinoco Delta. Many fortified trading posts are built in the area. After this they will fortify the coastal areas aginst the Caribs, and turn inwards in regards to extending thier trading network.

1509 - Marriage of Helene, daughter of Philip the Upright, Elector of the Palatine.

Marrying two of his daughters to the biggest patriarchs of the Rhenish free cities helps, but just as big (if not a bigger) factor was the Elector’s ordering the construction (on his nickel) of new/repaired churches for all those cities who wished one built/repaired (the ‘/’ denotes, basically, “whichever was more in need”)…The end result is the free cities come under Philip’s umbrella of protective authority.

At the final meeting of the Thirds (the Wendish, Rhenish, Teutonic Knights) before the dawn of the 1510 decade, Philip assures the heads of the Hansa that these cities are still free cities. The churches and cathedrals built and repaired, mind, are staunchly pro-Papacy, pointedly denouncing the teachings of Wettin.

1509: Emperor Ahmed calls for volunteers from every sanjak in the Empire; these men will form the nucleus of a series of settlements (and bases) along the Red Sea coast of Arabia. There will be no settlements in the Holy City, of course. Most of the settlers are Footmen and Exemptees.

1509: Emperor Ahmed calls for volunteers from every sanjak in the Empire; these men will form the nucleus of a series of settlements (and bases) along the Red Sea coast of Arabia. There will be no settlements in the Holy City, of course. Most of the settlers are Footmen and Exemptees.

1509: A peasant brings his 7-year-old son, Alik, to the Knights of St Andrew. The Grand Master asks why he doesn’t send him to a Monastery instead, the father replies that he did but they threw him out because he kept escaping and was leading the other boys on “crusades” to route out the heathen Mongols. The boy is very intelligent and absorbs everything he’s learned, but is undisciplined and vivid imagination, and can’t be controlled. The Grand Master accepts the young Alik, and keeps an eye on the boy.

1509: Emperor Ahmed calls for volunteers from every sanjak in the Empire; these men will form the nucleus of a series of settlements (and bases) along the best coastal spots of the Red Sea coast of Arabia. There will be no settlements in the Holy City, of course. Most of the settlers are Footmen and Exemptees.

Keenir

June 9th, 2007, 01:43 AM

Thanks! I do think we're missing one or two things (note that you only have the addendum for the English 1509 events).

I did as you instructed: I ran a search for _1509_.

Glen

June 9th, 2007, 02:01 AM

I did as you instructed: I ran a search for _1509_.

It's in the Second Draft thread. There are ten posts there that come up when you search for 1509.

Glen

June 9th, 2007, 02:14 AM

I am starting work on 1507.

Glen

June 9th, 2007, 02:57 AM

I am starting work on 1507.

1507 up but not commented upon. I'm tired, my eyes are burning, and my throat hurts. I'm taking a break.

If someone can collect 1508 and expand 1509 that would be great.

Then we can try tackling the 1510s.

Glen

June 9th, 2007, 11:32 PM

I will now work on 1508. Can someone start on 1510, 1511, etc? Please say here if you are willing to pull those events together.

I either need a heck of a lot more help, or this revision is going to have to run into next week as well, which I really want to avoid. The timeline must flow!!!

Glen

June 10th, 2007, 12:06 PM

Good news! The Sandman is in. He'll need a little time to catch up, and I told him to start by reading through the timeline review thread.

Smaug

June 10th, 2007, 05:00 PM

Glen

June 11th, 2007, 01:12 AM

I Pmed you a list of 1511 events. Hope it helps. I'll try another one if thats of any use to you.

Yes, and thank you. Keep it up. Here they are for the group.

I don't know if this will help any, but its a list of 1511 posts, before being argued pro or con.

Saxony 1510-1511. Frederick begins streamlining the administration of his reunited duchy, and promulgates a succession law by which the estates will choose from among the sons of Wettin "one duke for all of Saxony", by which decision all of the other sons will be bound, and all of the estates likewise. While the duke remains soul ruler over Saxony, this decision helpsstrengthen the power of the estates.
1512: Philip Melanchthon begins studying at the University of Wittenberg, under the patronage of Martin Luther.

Hansa 1511. After much hard sailing, the Straights of Magellan are found. The Hansa establish a small town and trading post called Fredericksberg (OTL Buenos Aires). Controversy remains as to whether the "Frederick" in question is Frederick of Saxony, Frederick of the teutonic order, Frederick the brother of the king of Naples or all three.
1512. Further Hansa ships and settlers set out for Fredericksberg, building it up to a population of 1,000. Many of these settlers are from poorer families from the Baltic coast, or even peasants from Saxony and the Palatinate who have been promised freedom from their feudal obligations. Others are Teutonic knights.

Naples 1511: Prince Alphonso of Naples returns to Italy. He bring with him his family, consisting of his
wife, Maria Christina, his sons, Filippo and Ferrante, and his daughters, Leonora, Diana and
Giovanna. The Kings brother Frederick takes over his role as ambassador to Ndongo

Ryuku 1511: Trade with the Taiwanese people is strengthened by the new way in which the trade companies are organised and run. More colonies are established along the north-east and north-west coasts and further inland. Several hundred Ryukyuans have now permanantly relocated to Taiwan to participate in the flourishing trade markets.

King Sho shin recalls the Royal navy that was built for the 'invasion' of Taiwan. The amount of trade now passing between Japan, China, and the states of South-East Asia via Okinawa has convinced Sho shin that protection of the merchant fleets and port-cities is of supreme importance to the continued success of Ryukyu. All the navy was required to do was escort the larger fleets to and from port, and occasionally run patrols outside of the principle harbours. Many individuals later doubted that this was the real reason the navy was recalled, as it was noticed that a high percentage of the sailors appeared to be becoming restless during the period of inactivity.

Later that year however, the navy became occupied with a much more serious task. Two years before, Japanese Shogun Ashikaga Yoshitane had declared a 'war on piracy'. In the years following the new-found Sino-Ryukyuan political and diplomatic equality, King Sho shin, whose reign has long since been considered synonymous with a Ryukyuan 'golden age', attempted to gain further recognition amongst the states of East and South-East Asia as a powerful and independent nation. It was a matter of international prestige, as well as national security, that drove Sho shin to commit the bulk of the Ryukyuan navy to the war on piracy.

England 1511:

King Arthur II declares that Wales shall be known henceforth as Britain, in honor of its heritage. For years, Britons had complained of being known as ‘Weales’ or foreigners in old Anglo-Saxon.

1511 June 28: King Arthur the Second, on the occasion of his brother Henry’s twentieth birthday, declares him ‘Lord Champion of the Realm’.

Portugal 1511

January, 23 – Margaret of Portugal gives birth to her final child, Anna.

Manoel I begins the renovation of Lisbon, creating new aqueducts, expanding its already massive harbor and shipyards, roads, and various other city infrastructures, creating a new Rome in the West.

New schools, universities, hospitals are built due to Margaret of Portugal’s encouraging. The Music and arts are also heavily funded.

Aussie, Not sure of state 1511:
When King Diego orders the extermination of the entire Lunda and non-Catholic Matamban people, he is officially deposed by the Macota of Ndongo-Matamba, and the Kingdom is placed under the Regency of the former king's sister and brother-in-law Prince Marcos and Princess Maria-Joséphine. The Duke of Benguela is crowned "King Emmanuel II."

Prince Marcos, always the thinker, sends a delegation to be lead by his warrior-wife to Rome, to ask the Holy Father how the Kingdom should deal with non-Catholic Ndongolese-Matambans, and non-Catholic conquered peoples. Meanwhile, he and his Franciscan advisors divide the Lunda states into two provinces- In the north, Luba, and in the south, Lunda. Meanwhile, in order to thank the Kongo, he gives them the Kongolese-speaking kingdom of Ngoyo, and promises to lend soldiers to help the Kongolese in the conquering of the heathen empire of Luanda.

Japan 1511: The Nambu clan send a delegation of troops to explore the interior of Ezo and investigate ithe potential for trade, etc. The Nambu leaders are pleased with the reports but decide not to commit to any definate action.

Ming China 1511-1513: Chinese trading companies begin dispatching their, "little investments," to their growing trading posts on Taiwan and in the northern most Spratley Islands, still very much undeveloped and sparsley populated. While the islands themselves were of little value, their location allowed the larger trading junks to take on provisions before sailing south to Vietnam and the rest of South-East Asia. While the "little investments" made, ironically, little difference in the protection of business investments on Taiwan due to the 9,000 man Ming garrison permanently stationed on the island, the hired armies of 100-200 men made a large difference in securing trading posts and refurbishing stations in the Spratley Islands. With their successes in subduing what few natives existed in the area, some of the trading companies began devising the formation of larger armies to send to areas such as Indonesia, or perhaps to the Indian Sub-Continent, where Chinese trading goods were sold for top prices to both Arab and European merchants.

Yolgnu 1511:

The war enters its third year, with no signs of abating. In desperation, the Shahbandur (Gowan foreign minister) decides to enter into negotiations with the Yolgnu. The Yolgnu, heavily weakened by smallpox, agree.

In the First Makaratta (treaty), Djerrkura is recognised as bate (prince) of the Yolgnu, independent of Makassar but in a pact of permanent friendship. His allies are not so fortunate, with Gowa annexing the territory of any tribe to ally with the Yolgnu.

The ravages of smallpox force the tribes of Marege to gravitate towards the Gowan settlements along the coast, where they are given food for labour. They remain nominally independent, but the collapse of Yolgnu's alliances effectively grants the Gowans regional hegemony. Similar processes take place in Kai Djawa.

Meanwhile, Gowan praus continue to explore Marege, reaching the eastern side of OTL's Gulf of Carpentaria. Several trading stations are established, but many tribes, newly contacted, react badly to the intruders.

In Yolgnu, the population begin to gravitate to fishing settlements along the coast, established by Djerrkura.

Ethiopia 1511
Due to Prince Eon, Christian Priests in Ethiopia begin calling the [Christian] Faithful to Prayers at the same time the Muslim Imans do.

--Prince Eon accompling His Father King Eslander to visit the shipyard in Djibouti listens to the Imans calling the Faithful to prayer, and asks his father-
?But Are Not Whe Christians, Also The Faithful of the Lord? ?Should Whe not also Pray?
Maybe it was the odd light in the Prince's Eyes but the King agreed.
This would be later considered Saint Eon's First Miracle.--

russia 1511: The Russian Navy and Merchant fleets continue to grow. With the Help of Dutch ship designers the first carrack. In honor of Dmitriy’s Grandfather, the ship is named Ivan the Great, this is also the first time that Ivan III is called such. The Russian Navy now consists of the Ivan, 30 galleys, and about 20 smaller ships. The Russian Merchant fleet has increased to 50 ships. Most of the sailors of the Russian Fleet, both naval and merchant, are still foreigners, though the number of former Livonian’s and Russians are increasing.

At any rate I hope it helps. I know you're busy, so let me know if this is useful, or how to improve this kindof info.

Smaug

June 11th, 2007, 04:26 AM

First draft 1512

Saxony 1512: Philip Melanchthon begins studying at the University of

Wittenberg, under the patronage of Martin Luther.

Hansa 1512. Further Hansa ships and settlers set out for

Fredericksberg, building it up to a population of 1,000. Many of these

settlers are from poorer families from the Baltic coast, or even

peasants from Saxony and the Palatinate who have been promised freedom

from their feudal obligations. Others are Teutonic knights.

Naples 1512: A Neapolitan colony is established at the harbor where

sailors shipwrecked several years
ago (near OTL Capetown). It is named Porte Calabria.

In 1512 Naples established the above mention fort-church-trading post.

1512: Innocent IX dies, and is replaced by his relative Alessandro

Carafa. He takes the name Innocent X.

Ryuku 1512: The somewhat nervous Ryukyuan navy begins its campaign

against piracy. Operating in the waters between Ryukyu and mainland

China, they see little action, involved in the occasional minor

skirmish. What action they did see gave them the experience neccessary

to handle the next opponents. With each battle, they show signs of

improvement, slowly becoming a more coherent force.

Norasia:

1512: Smallpox breaks out among the Lenape and Mohicans along the Meryk

River. The contagion rages like wildfire, turning whole villages into

ghostly places. The suffering is terrible, and spreads as fast as word

of the plague, impacting all the tribes in the region.

England:

1512: King Arthur the Second declares a new order, the Order of Merlin.

The Order of Merlin is awarded solely to Englishmen of Arts and Letters

such as Natural Philosophers, and allows for them to sit in Parliament,

to better advise the nation.

Hospitalers 1512: Thomas Docwra orders that a census of all the

knights, sergeants and chaplains be taken, and an account made of all

the order's property.

Hansa 1512: The Hanseatic League was able to confirm the fact that the

decade of 1500-1510 had been the most profitable in a century

Portugal 1512

The Catholic Church in Portugal is only a former power of what it once

was. Manoel I is completing the work begun by John II in focusing all

power upon the crown.

Ausseys Africa thang ( :) ) 1512-1515: The Lunda province is

established as the seat of the second diocese of the Roman Catholic

Church in Ndongo- the Diocese of Inner Africa. The Bishop in Sao Rafael

is re-titled Bishop of Sao Rafael, the Franciscans place on of their

own as Bishop of Inner Africa. The missionaries work in Luba and Lunda

proves more successful than in Matamba, and stories of monotheistic

coastal landers on the other ocean are told of. Prince Marcos begins

the Construction of Ndongo- that, is the beginning of building

permanent structures and walled cities throughout the heartland of the

kingdom- Ndongo. Co-Regent Princess Maria-Joséphine dies on the voyage

home to Ndongo.

Spain 1512: now desparately strapped for cash, the Spanish sell Jamaica

to the Hanseatic League. Spain also permits some of her major

cities--such as Toledo, Corduba, Barsalona and Madrid to join the

Hansa, after confirming their free city charters. However Spain is

still deeply in debt--with a large military and, at the moment, nothing

to do with it...

Japan 1512: A Nambu flotilla explores the Chishima Islands and lands on

Kitaezo (OTL now Sakhalin), meeting and trading with locals. Reports of

the terrain, climate, and and environment are similar to those given of

Ezo.

Later that year a second expedition circumnavigates Kitaezo. While

passing between the narrowest point between the island and the

mainland, they are forced ashore on the island by bad weather.

Haudenosaunee 1512: A flesh-eating disease comes in from the east and

rips through Haudenosaunee land, spreading as fast as a man can walk on

the great roads, and into the Erie, Susequehanna, and Powhatan lands.

The old and the young are especially hard-hit; remote villages fare

best. Medicine masks have some effect in slowing the disease, but not

nearly enough. Generally, there are only two kinds of survivors --

those who never got sick at all and those who battled back from the

absolute brink of death. It is widely agreed that this is the great

holocaust predicted in the poem "The Funeral."

Yolgnu 1512:

Djerrkura's land clearance practices begin. Although they are widely

unpopular, they serve to transform the Yolgnu from a primarily

hunter-gatherer society into a fishing-based economy.

An attempted coup by Djerrkura's brother is put down harshly, but

Djerrkura is seriously weakened.

Varajanas 1512
The trade disputes between Chola and Jaffna lead to Emperor Raya

sending troops to conquer the Kingdom of Jaffna

He request help in this from the Portuguese that are moving in from the

south.

In return He will grant some trade concessions in Pondicherry, allowing

Portugal onto the east coast.

Granada (?) 1512
Juan Carlos Muhammad XIII --son of Boabdil Muhammad XII of Granada--

marries the Daughter of Mohammad Hasfid IV.

tom Veil...1512 March: Raimal dies. His obsession with government

administration pays off, as there is no succession crisis. Prithviraj

is crowned Rajamaharana, virtually all of the royal family and Imperial

Advisory Chamber continue in their old posts.

Muisca 1512: The Muisca begin to spread influence into OTL Trinidad,

and the other Islands visible from its coasts. The Taino are

instrumental in this work. Assistance from the Muisca against the

Caribs, will hopefully draw the Arawak people to the Confederation.

The Zaque of the Muisca has received word that the Inka are gearing up

for conquest. He sends an emissary to the Inka in the hope of

strengthening ties between thier peoples. He sends his own weight in

Emeralds and a variety of other trade goods in the hope of recieving

information on the Inkas new method of writing and accounting, and

stonemasons who can act as a cadre to his own growing engineering corp.

He promises trade concessions, and to share knowledge of the newcomers,

and thier curious gadgets

Gowa 1512:
Victory in the Yolgnu Wars has led to a widened national prosperity in

Gowa, thanks to a flood of trepang, pearls and exotic foods into

Makassar.

In recognition of this, the Gowan Shahbandar opens up the port of

Makassar to all foreign nations-effectively, becoming a free port,

without tariffs or boundaries.

The karaeng of Tallok marries a Gowan princess, creating closer links

between the two nations

Haudenosaunee 1512 September: The Chief of the Onondaga dies. The Clan

Mothers elect an unknown man as Chief.

Russia 1512: In order to increase the Education of his People, 2

Universities are established, one in Moscow and one in Novgorod. Due

his journeys, Nil Sorsky refuses the offer of being the first

Headmaster at either School; instead Dmitriy offers the Headmastership

of the Moscow Academy to his long time friend and confidant Vassian

Patrikeyev, who accepts. A request for Teachers is sent though Europe

offering teaching positions at the new Universities.

Keenir

June 11th, 2007, 05:08 AM

it was from 1501-1505, right?

Psychomeltdown

June 11th, 2007, 05:14 AM

Naples never set up a colony near capetown, it was retconned, since the Portuguese set up one there earlier.

Smaug

June 11th, 2007, 05:32 AM

These aren't hashed out events. I just cut and pasted everything, 1512, first post-wise, from the first draft thread.

Keenir

June 11th, 2007, 05:49 AM

1508. Henry, upon hearing of his father's death, goes briefly into mourning, and becomes deeply introspective. After half a year, he emerges from his solitude a changed man, believing firmly that Albert's loyalty to an empire given to decadents and corruption helped cause his death. Henry, like Frederick the Wise and Bertholt of Mainz, becomes an advocate of widespread reforms. He begins aggressively with these reforms in Trier, stamping out the practice of indulgences

what do indulgences have to do with corruption in the HRE ?

Glen

June 11th, 2007, 08:21 PM

Given all the amended stuff from the timeline review thus far, should we ask people to just repost events for 1510-1520 in their amended forms in a new thread for that purpose?

Don't make it yet! Just give your opinion here.

Keenir

June 11th, 2007, 08:33 PM

Glen

June 11th, 2007, 08:45 PM

what about the amended 1501-1510?

Good question. Let me think about it.

Glen

June 15th, 2007, 02:49 AM

Had trouble getting back on tonight. Now too sleepy. Will dream of improbable Crusades tonight, get back to you tomorrow.

RCTFI

June 15th, 2007, 03:00 PM

I haven't been on much for a couple of days, because of my exams. I was wondering at how you thought I should catch up. I'd like to get back to posting as soon as possible, really.

marl_d

June 15th, 2007, 03:33 PM

dont we all

Glen

June 15th, 2007, 04:53 PM

I haven't been on much for a couple of days, because of my exams. I was wondering at how you thought I should catch up. I'd like to get back to posting as soon as possible, really.

Read through the timeline review thread. Comment on anything with plausibility problems.

I think we're just going to have to start rolling again on Monday. But that means we've a lot of work over this weekend.

AJNolte

June 15th, 2007, 10:16 PM

Read through the timeline review thread. Comment on anything with plausibility problems.

I think we're just going to have to start rolling again on Monday. But that means we've a lot of work over this weekend.

I hate to say this, given that I'm one of those who has been chafing the most at these delays and revisions. That said, I really, realy don't want to have to stop and do this again, at least not on such a large scale. And, speaking for Spain particularly, the entry of France and Navarre into the timeline is going to inevitably cause some adjustments. I'd like to clear up their history up to this point at the very least before going any further with Spain, simply because I don't want to adjust things with Spain in order to take acount of Portugal only to do so again when France shows up.