1493 Archive

[Glen]

Here's an idea for a shared worlds timeline/game.

The idea is that we start at 1492, when Columbus discovered the New World. Each participant will take responsibility for at least one nation of the time.

Your mission is to shepherd your nation(s) through the Age of Discovery and then Imperialism.

A couple proposed rules -

First, in the first several years, you must be true to the historical figures and cultures of your nation(s). At the beginning, all nations must be real OTL nations. You can slowly through multiple small but realistic PODs change your nation's policy, goals, capabilities, even national character. You are in charge of the actions of the people within your nation and its colonies (assuming they weren't conquered from another participant who you've agreed to have remain active, see below).

Second, if your nation is conquered utterly, you and the controller of the conqueror should work out whether you will continue to play a role in that land (insurgents, liberation groups, etc) or if you will claim a new nation that is not currently under another player.

Third, areas not claimed by a participant will go forward in a fashion similar to OTL until participant actions on them change their course. The reactions of such areas will be up to participant concensus, or where no concensus exists, the moderator(s). I (Glen) am one, and I suspect we might want more. If we have moderators in disagreement, I will be the final arbitrator.

Fourth, you need not keep your nation(s) in one piece to keep control of them. If you want to break up your nation in some civil war, then control the successor states, this is fine, so long as it is done in a plausible fashion.

Fifth, we will pick in rounds what nations people want, every 24 hours from the time I post a sign-up thread you may choose another 1492 nation to command. Note, you need not choose more than one, nor must all the nations be picked to control. Its just to make certain that there is a fair way for people to get their choices.

Sixth, you need not participate the entire time the project runs. Feel free to give away your nations to others, either some or all. Any nation abandoned (and we only ask that you inform us that you are doing so) will either be picked up by a participant or treated the way other non-participant controlled areas are. You may also ask for another participant to babysit your nation(s) if you know you will need an extended leave of absence. If you are unable to respond to actions in a 48 hour period, concensus where possible or a moderator where necessary will determine your actions, just like non-controlled nations. However, you will be sent a PM warning you before this happens (and someone should PM me before this happens, too).

I'm certain we can think of some more as time goes by, but that's the rough outline of the idea. It's sort of a shared worlds project similar to the XXth Century, but also a game where participants try to gain their goals for their nations during the course of history.

So, anyone interested?

[Glen]

Here's an idea for a shared worlds timeline/game.

The idea is that we start at 1492, when Columbus discovered the New World. Each participant will take responsibility for at least one nation of the time.

Your mission is to shepherd your nation(s) through the Age of Discovery and then Imperialism.

A couple proposed rules -

First, in the first several years, you must be true to the historical figures and cultures of your nation(s). At the beginning, all nations must be real OTL nations. You can slowly through multiple small but realistic PODs change your nation's policy, goals, capabilities, even national character. You are in charge of the actions of the people within your nation and its colonies (assuming they weren't conquered from another participant who you've agreed to have remain active, see below).

Second, if your nation is conquered utterly, you and the controller of the conqueror should work out whether you will continue to play a role in that land (insurgents, liberation groups, etc) or if you will claim a new nation that is not currently under another player.

Third, areas not claimed by a participant will go forward in a fashion similar to OTL until participant actions on them change their course. The reactions of such areas will be up to participant concensus, or where no concensus exists, the moderator(s). I (Glen) am one, and I suspect we might want more. If we have moderators in disagreement, I will be the final arbitrator.

Fourth, you need not keep your nation(s) in one piece to keep control of them. If you want to break up your nation in some civil war, then control the successor states, this is fine, so long as it is done in a plausible fashion.

Fifth, we will pick in rounds what nations people want, every 24 hours from the time I post a sign-up thread you may choose another 1492 nation to command. Note, you need not choose more than one, nor must all the nations be picked to control. Its just to make certain that there is a fair way for people to get their choices.

Sixth, you need not participate the entire time the project runs. Feel free to give away your nations to others, either some or all. Any nation abandoned (and we only ask that you inform us that you are doing so) will either be picked up by a participant or treated the way other non-participant controlled areas are. You may also ask for another participant to babysit your nation(s) if you know you will need an extended leave of absence. If you are unable to respond to actions in a 48 hour period, concensus where possible or a moderator where necessary will determine your actions, just like non-controlled nations. However, you will be sent a PM warning you before this happens (and someone should PM me before this happens, too).

I'm certain we can think of some more as time goes by, but that's the rough outline of the idea. It's sort of a shared worlds project similar to the XXth Century, but also a game where participants try to gain their goals for their nations during the course of history.

So, anyone interested?

[Agentdark]

Umm, do we really need to start this now, I've just put a lot of work in ME:Galaxy, and Fenwick's Zombie earth are both running....?

[Agentdark]

Umm, do we really need to start this now, I've just put a lot of work in ME:Galaxy, and Fenwick's Zombie earth are both running....?

[DuQuense]

Whe can start talking about it with the prefiso that it is on hold till after ME-Gal, and Zombie end.

?Ethiopia or Japan?:confused: emine meanie miney moe:D :D :D

[DuQuense]

Whe can start talking about it with the prefiso that it is on hold till after ME-Gal, and Zombie end.

?Ethiopia or Japan?:confused: emine meanie miney moe:D :D :D

[Glen]

Umm, do we really need to start this now, I've just put a lot of work in ME:Galaxy, and Fenwick's Zombie earth are both running....?

This is, strictly speaking, not a game but a collaborative Alternate Timeline, with people taking specific nations to be responsible for.

I think it will attract some different people than those other two worthy efforts.

And as per DQ's suggestion, we can take our time with preparations. I anticipate this project requiring at least a year's worth of work, so there's no hurry.

I think I will also post a mirror thread in Before 1900 to increase recruitment.

[Glen]

Umm, do we really need to start this now, I've just put a lot of work in ME:Galaxy, and Fenwick's Zombie earth are both running....?

This is, strictly speaking, not a game but a collaborative Alternate Timeline, with people taking specific nations to be responsible for.

I think it will attract some different people than those other two worthy efforts.

And as per DQ's suggestion, we can take our time with preparations. I anticipate this project requiring at least a year's worth of work, so there's no hurry.

I think I will also post a mirror thread in Before 1900 to increase recruitment.

[Tom Veil]

So, a collaborative TL like XXth C, but with explicit sponsorship of nations like in most other shared world games, and with a "clock" to keep the game running? Sounds excellent!

As for the "conflict" with ME:Galaxy and Zombie -- those two games are ASB by their very title, and so I would expect that they would attract a different audience than a historically realistic TL game.

[Tom Veil]

So, a collaborative TL like XXth C, but with explicit sponsorship of nations like in most other shared world games, and with a "clock" to keep the game running? Sounds excellent!

As for the "conflict" with ME:Galaxy and Zombie -- those two games are ASB by their very title, and so I would expect that they would attract a different audience than a historically realistic TL game.

[Glen]

So, a collaborative TL like XXth C, but with explicit sponsorship of nations like in most other shared world games, and with a "clock" to keep the game running?

Essentially, yes.

Sounds excellent!

As for the "conflict" with ME:Galaxy and Zombie -- those two games are ASB by their very title, and so I would expect that they would attract a different audience than a historically realistic TL game.

My impression as well.

[Glen]

So, a collaborative TL like XXth C, but with explicit sponsorship of nations like in most other shared world games, and with a "clock" to keep the game running?

Essentially, yes.

Sounds excellent!

As for the "conflict" with ME:Galaxy and Zombie -- those two games are ASB by their very title, and so I would expect that they would attract a different audience than a historically realistic TL game.

My impression as well.

[Othniel]

I'm intrested.

[Othniel]

I'm intrested.

[Glen]

I'm intrested.

Good to have you aboard, amigo!

[Glen]

I'm intrested.

Good to have you aboard, amigo!

[Glen]

Lord Sandar's redo of Thande's original basemap for 1500.

Just to give us some idea of who is out there in 1492. We'll need a map corrected for 1492 as our starting map, and preferably one of the bigger maps that show all those delicious little islands in the Caribbean and the Pacific....

http://www.lordsander.net/1500.gif

[Glen]

Lord Sandar's redo of Thande's original basemap for 1500.

Just to give us some idea of who is out there in 1492. We'll need a map corrected for 1492 as our starting map, and preferably one of the bigger maps that show all those delicious little islands in the Caribbean and the Pacific....

http://www.lordsander.net/1500.gif

[Atom]

I might be interested, although I have a couple of questions:
firstly, although there not on your map would it be possible to play as some sort of powerful group in the pacific Northwest of the USA and secondly how much detail are we going to put in this?

[Atom]

I might be interested, although I have a couple of questions:
firstly, although there not on your map would it be possible to play as some sort of powerful group in the pacific Northwest of the USA and secondly how much detail are we going to put in this?

[Glen]

I would propose that the the PODs can start no sooner than March 15ish, 1493, since March 15th is the time of Columbus' return from the first voyage to the New World.

[Glen]

I would propose that the the PODs can start no sooner than March 15ish, 1493, since March 15th is the time of Columbus' return from the first voyage to the New World.

[Glen]

I might be interested, although I have a couple of questions:
firstly, although there not on your map would it be possible to play as some sort of powerful group in the pacific Northwest of the USA

You must start with an OTL nation or nations. If through multiple small divergences over time you can forge a powerful group there, more power to you. But its going to be difficult I would assume.

and secondly how much detail are we going to put in this?

The degree of detail will be dependent on the person, of course, but in general we want to have enough detail to follow the development of the nations of the world through to the present.

[Glen]

I might be interested, although I have a couple of questions:
firstly, although there not on your map would it be possible to play as some sort of powerful group in the pacific Northwest of the USA

You must start with an OTL nation or nations. If through multiple small divergences over time you can forge a powerful group there, more power to you. But its going to be difficult I would assume.

and secondly how much detail are we going to put in this?

The degree of detail will be dependent on the person, of course, but in general we want to have enough detail to follow the development of the nations of the world through to the present.

[The Sicilian]

I'm interested in southern Italy. I think that Naples was still independant in 1492. If not, then some powerfull North American group, like the Haudenosaunee.

[The Sicilian]

I'm interested in southern Italy. I think that Naples was still independant in 1492. If not, then some powerfull North American group, like the Haudenosaunee.

[Glen]

I'm interested in southern Italy. I think that Naples was still independant in 1492. If not, then some powerfull North American group, like the Haudenosaunee.

I am glad you are interested. Once we've got a better feel for who all is out there, we will have a separate formal thread for people to select nations.

[Glen]

I'm interested in southern Italy. I think that Naples was still independant in 1492. If not, then some powerfull North American group, like the Haudenosaunee.

I am glad you are interested. Once we've got a better feel for who all is out there, we will have a separate formal thread for people to select nations.

[The Sicilian]

Great. I checked Wikipedia, and Naples was indeed independant and under the tyrranical rule of one Don Ferrante I. He slaughtered a bunch of nobles he had granted amnesty after a rebellion. Lovely character.

[The Sicilian]

Great. I checked Wikipedia, and Naples was indeed independant and under the tyrranical rule of one Don Ferrante I. He slaughtered a bunch of nobles he had granted amnesty after a rebellion. Lovely character.

[Glen]

Can someone generate a list of nations from 1492/3 for us? List what known nations are out there in this year?

[Glen]

Can someone generate a list of nations from 1492/3 for us? List what known nations are out there in this year?

[DuQuense]

1490

1490 in other calendars
Gregorian calendar 1490
MCDXC
Ab urbe condita 2243
Armenian calendar 939
ԹՎ ՋԼԹ
Bahá'í calendar -354 – -353
Buddhist calendar 2034
Chinese calendar 4126
Ethiopian calendar 1482 – 1483
Hebrew calendar 5250 – 5251
Hindu calendars
- Vikram Samvat 1545 – 1546
- Shaka Samvat 1412 – 1413
- Kali Yuga 4591 – 4592
Holocene calendar 11490
Iranian calendar 868 – 869
Islamic calendar 895 – 896
Japanese calendar Entoku 2
- Imperial Year Kōki 2150
- Jōmon Era 11490
Julian calendar 1535
Korean calendar 3823
Thai solar calendar 2033

Events
* Tirant Lo Blanc by Joanot Martorell, Martí Joan De Galba is published.
* Yoshitane becomes Ashikaga shogun of Japan.
* Charles John Amadeus of Savoy becomes Duke of Savoy at age 1, mother Blanche of Montferrato is regent.
* Aldus Manutius moves to Venice.
* John Colet receives M.A. from Magdalen College, Oxford.
* Castle Church in Wittenberg is begun.
* Pedro de Covilham arrives in Ethiopia.
* Catholic missionaries arrive in the African kingdom of Kongo.
* Regular postal service connects the Habsburg residences of Mechelen and Innsbruck, the first in Germany.
* Leonardo da Vinci observes capillary action in small-bore tubes.
* December 19 - Anne of Brittany married to Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor by proxy
* Small asteroid kills thousands in China.

1491

* February 20 - "Comet of 1491" comes 873,784 miles away from earth, the closest ever recorded.
* May 3 - Kongo monarch Nkuwu Nzinga is baptised by Portuguese missionaries, adopting the baptismal name of João I.
* November 16 - An auto de fe, held in Brasero de la Dehesa outside of Ávila, concludes the case of the Holy Child of La Guardia with the execution of several Jewish and converso suspects.
* November 25 - The siege of Granada, last stronghold of the Moors in Spain, begins.
* December 6 - King Charles VIII of France marries Anne of Brittany forcing her to break her marriage with Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor, thus incorporating Brittany into the kingdom of France.
* A major fire breaks out in Dresden.

1492

* January 2 - Boabdil, the last Moorish King of Granada, surrenders his city to the army of Ferdinand and Isabella after a lengthy siege.
* January 23 - Pentateuch first printed.
* March 31 - Ferdinand and Isabella sign the Alhambra decree expelling all Jews from Spain unless they convert to Roman Catholicism.
* July 31 - The Jews are expelled from Spain.
* August 3 - Christopher Columbus sets sail on his first journey across the Atlantic Ocean to the Americas
* August 11 - Pope Alexander VI succeeds Pope Innocent VIII as the 214th pope.
* Sultan Bayezid II of the Ottoman Empire, learning about the expulsion of Jews from Spain, dispatched the Ottoman Navy to bring the Jews safely to Ottoman lands, mainly to the cities of Thessaloniki (currently in Greece) and İzmir (currently in Turkey).[1]
* October 12 - Christopher Columbus's expedition makes landfall in the Caribbean and lands on Guanahani. The Italian explorer believes he has reached the East Indies.
* October 28 - Christopher Columbus lands in Cuba.
* November 7 - The Ensisheim meteorite, a 127-kg meteorite, lands in a wheat field near the village of Ensisheim in Alsace.
* December 5 - Christopher Columbus becomes the first known European to set foot on the island of Hispaniola.
* December 31 - About 100,000 Jews were expelled from Sicily.
* Casimir IV Jagiello of Jagiello Royal House ends reign. (1427-1492).
* Year 7000 according to the Byzantine Date of Creation and an expected year of Apocalypse
* The first arboretum to be designed and planted was the Arboretum Trsteno, near Dubrovnik in Croatia.
* Russians build a fortress in Ivangorod, on the eastern banks of Narva river.

1493

* January - Ivan III of Russia declares himself gosudar' vseja Rusi - "Lord of all Rus'".
* January 4 - Christopher Columbus leaves the New World.
* March 15 - Christopher Columbus returns to Spain after his first trip to the Americas.

Game Starts


* May 4 - Pope Alexander VI divides the New World between Spain and Portugal along the Demarcation Line.
* July 28 - Great fire in Moscow.
* September 9 - Battle of Krbava field between defending Croatian nobles and invading Ottoman Turk forces.
* November 19 - Christopher Columbus goes ashore on an island he saw for the first time only the day before. He names it San Juan Bautista (later renamed Puerto Rico).
* December 23 - Georg Alt's German translation of Hartmann Schedel's Nuremberg Chronicle is published.

[DuQuense]

1490

1490 in other calendars
Gregorian calendar 1490
MCDXC
Ab urbe condita 2243
Armenian calendar 939
ԹՎ ՋԼԹ
Bahá'í calendar -354 – -353
Buddhist calendar 2034
Chinese calendar 4126
Ethiopian calendar 1482 – 1483
Hebrew calendar 5250 – 5251
Hindu calendars
- Vikram Samvat 1545 – 1546
- Shaka Samvat 1412 – 1413
- Kali Yuga 4591 – 4592
Holocene calendar 11490
Iranian calendar 868 – 869
Islamic calendar 895 – 896
Japanese calendar Entoku 2
- Imperial Year Kōki 2150
- Jōmon Era 11490
Julian calendar 1535
Korean calendar 3823
Thai solar calendar 2033

Events
* Tirant Lo Blanc by Joanot Martorell, Martí Joan De Galba is published.
* Yoshitane becomes Ashikaga shogun of Japan.
* Charles John Amadeus of Savoy becomes Duke of Savoy at age 1, mother Blanche of Montferrato is regent.
* Aldus Manutius moves to Venice.
* John Colet receives M.A. from Magdalen College, Oxford.
* Castle Church in Wittenberg is begun.
* Pedro de Covilham arrives in Ethiopia.
* Catholic missionaries arrive in the African kingdom of Kongo.
* Regular postal service connects the Habsburg residences of Mechelen and Innsbruck, the first in Germany.
* Leonardo da Vinci observes capillary action in small-bore tubes.
* December 19 - Anne of Brittany married to Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor by proxy
* Small asteroid kills thousands in China.

1491

* February 20 - "Comet of 1491" comes 873,784 miles away from earth, the closest ever recorded.
* May 3 - Kongo monarch Nkuwu Nzinga is baptised by Portuguese missionaries, adopting the baptismal name of João I.
* November 16 - An auto de fe, held in Brasero de la Dehesa outside of Ávila, concludes the case of the Holy Child of La Guardia with the execution of several Jewish and converso suspects.
* November 25 - The siege of Granada, last stronghold of the Moors in Spain, begins.
* December 6 - King Charles VIII of France marries Anne of Brittany forcing her to break her marriage with Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor, thus incorporating Brittany into the kingdom of France.
* A major fire breaks out in Dresden.

1492

* January 2 - Boabdil, the last Moorish King of Granada, surrenders his city to the army of Ferdinand and Isabella after a lengthy siege.
* January 23 - Pentateuch first printed.
* March 31 - Ferdinand and Isabella sign the Alhambra decree expelling all Jews from Spain unless they convert to Roman Catholicism.
* July 31 - The Jews are expelled from Spain.
* August 3 - Christopher Columbus sets sail on his first journey across the Atlantic Ocean to the Americas
* August 11 - Pope Alexander VI succeeds Pope Innocent VIII as the 214th pope.
* Sultan Bayezid II of the Ottoman Empire, learning about the expulsion of Jews from Spain, dispatched the Ottoman Navy to bring the Jews safely to Ottoman lands, mainly to the cities of Thessaloniki (currently in Greece) and İzmir (currently in Turkey).[1]
* October 12 - Christopher Columbus's expedition makes landfall in the Caribbean and lands on Guanahani. The Italian explorer believes he has reached the East Indies.
* October 28 - Christopher Columbus lands in Cuba.
* November 7 - The Ensisheim meteorite, a 127-kg meteorite, lands in a wheat field near the village of Ensisheim in Alsace.
* December 5 - Christopher Columbus becomes the first known European to set foot on the island of Hispaniola.
* December 31 - About 100,000 Jews were expelled from Sicily.
* Casimir IV Jagiello of Jagiello Royal House ends reign. (1427-1492).
* Year 7000 according to the Byzantine Date of Creation and an expected year of Apocalypse
* The first arboretum to be designed and planted was the Arboretum Trsteno, near Dubrovnik in Croatia.
* Russians build a fortress in Ivangorod, on the eastern banks of Narva river.

1493

* January - Ivan III of Russia declares himself gosudar' vseja Rusi - "Lord of all Rus'".
* January 4 - Christopher Columbus leaves the New World.
* March 15 - Christopher Columbus returns to Spain after his first trip to the Americas.

Game Starts


* May 4 - Pope Alexander VI divides the New World between Spain and Portugal along the Demarcation Line.
* July 28 - Great fire in Moscow.
* September 9 - Battle of Krbava field between defending Croatian nobles and invading Ottoman Turk forces.
* November 19 - Christopher Columbus goes ashore on an island he saw for the first time only the day before. He names it San Juan Bautista (later renamed Puerto Rico).
* December 23 - Georg Alt's German translation of Hartmann Schedel's Nuremberg Chronicle is published.

[Glen]

Should we use a basemap something like this? We're going to need something for all those islands....

[Glen]

Should we use a basemap something like this? We're going to need something for all those islands....

[DrakeRlugia]

Lemme try.

Europe:
France
Spain
England
Scotland
Genoa
Austria
Hungary (In Personal Union w/ Bohemia and Croatia)
The Swiss Confederacy
Denmark (PU w/ Sweden and Norway)
Brandenburg
Pommerania
Mecklinburg
Saxony
Bavaria
Several Other Small German States
Teutonic Order
Poland (PU w/ Lithuania)
Livonia
Pskov
Muscovy
Riazan
Kazan (Russian Puppet)
The Golden Horde
Astrakhan
Venice
Milan
Savoy
Modena
Romanga
Tuscany
Papal States
Navarre
Portugal
Naples
Crimean Khanate (Turkish Puppet)
Knights of Saint John
Bosnia

Mideast
Ottoman Empire
Whie Sheep Federation
Mameluk Empire
Persia
Several Small Caucasian States

North Africa:
Fez
Morocco
Tripoli
Hafsid
Several small Algerian states

I drew these most from This Map (http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1500.htm).

I've no idea on Asia and the Americas, though.

[DrakeRlugia]

Lemme try.

Europe:
France
Spain
England
Scotland
Genoa
Austria
Hungary (In Personal Union w/ Bohemia and Croatia)
The Swiss Confederacy
Denmark (PU w/ Sweden and Norway)
Brandenburg
Pommerania
Mecklinburg
Saxony
Bavaria
Several Other Small German States
Teutonic Order
Poland (PU w/ Lithuania)
Livonia
Pskov
Muscovy
Riazan
Kazan (Russian Puppet)
The Golden Horde
Astrakhan
Venice
Milan
Savoy
Modena
Romanga
Tuscany
Papal States
Navarre
Portugal
Naples
Crimean Khanate (Turkish Puppet)
Knights of Saint John
Bosnia

Mideast
Ottoman Empire
Whie Sheep Federation
Mameluk Empire
Persia
Several Small Caucasian States

North Africa:
Fez
Morocco
Tripoli
Hafsid
Several small Algerian states

I drew these most from This Map (http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1500.htm).

I've no idea on Asia and the Americas, though.

[pa_dutch]

North America

Mississippian
Caddo
Emerald Mounds
Etowah
Joara
Ocmulgee

Mexico Valley
Anahuac (Aztec Empire)
Michoacan (Tarascan Empire)
Metztitlan
Tlaxcala
Huetzcotzingo
Yopitzingo
Tototepec
Tecuantepec

Maya
Chiapan
Acalan
Potonchan
Chanputun
Canpech
Tutul Xiu
Ah Canul
Chakan
Cehpech
Ah Kin Chel
Hocaba
Susuta
Cupul
Chikinchel
Tases
Ecab
Cozumel
Cochuah
Huaymil
Chactemal
Itza
Mam
Quiche
Cakchiquel
Pokomam

Central America
Lenca
Cuscatlán
Nicarao
Miskito

Caribbean

Cubanacan (Cuba)
Guanahacabibes
Guaniguanico
Marién
Habana
Hanábana
Sabaneque
Xagua
Cubanacán
Magón
Ornofay
Camaguey
Maniabón
Cueiba
Bayamo
Macaca
Bayatiquirí
Maisí
Baracoa

Haiti (Hispaniola)
Magua
Marien
Xaragua
Maguana
Higuey

Boriken (Puerto Rico)
Aymaco
Jaguecas
Guamá
Guanía
Otoao
Amoná
Coabey
Jatibonico
Toa
Cayeco
Guayama
Guayaney
Macao
Turabo
Guaynabo
Bayamón
Aimarico
Caynabón
Daguao
Bieke
Abacoa
Abuco
Guajataka

South America

Chibcha
Muisca
Tairona
Cenú

Andes
Tawantinsuyu (Inca Empire)

[pa_dutch]

North America

Mississippian
Caddo
Emerald Mounds
Etowah
Joara
Ocmulgee

Mexico Valley
Anahuac (Aztec Empire)
Michoacan (Tarascan Empire)
Metztitlan
Tlaxcala
Huetzcotzingo
Yopitzingo
Tototepec
Tecuantepec

Maya
Chiapan
Acalan
Potonchan
Chanputun
Canpech
Tutul Xiu
Ah Canul
Chakan
Cehpech
Ah Kin Chel
Hocaba
Susuta
Cupul
Chikinchel
Tases
Ecab
Cozumel
Cochuah
Huaymil
Chactemal
Itza
Mam
Quiche
Cakchiquel
Pokomam

Central America
Lenca
Cuscatlán
Nicarao
Miskito

Caribbean

Cubanacan (Cuba)
Guanahacabibes
Guaniguanico
Marién
Habana
Hanábana
Sabaneque
Xagua
Cubanacán
Magón
Ornofay
Camaguey
Maniabón
Cueiba
Bayamo
Macaca
Bayatiquirí
Maisí
Baracoa

Haiti (Hispaniola)
Magua
Marien
Xaragua
Maguana
Higuey

Boriken (Puerto Rico)
Aymaco
Jaguecas
Guamá
Guanía
Otoao
Amoná
Coabey
Jatibonico
Toa
Cayeco
Guayama
Guayaney
Macao
Turabo
Guaynabo
Bayamón
Aimarico
Caynabón
Daguao
Bieke
Abacoa
Abuco
Guajataka

South America

Chibcha
Muisca
Tairona
Cenú

Andes
Tawantinsuyu (Inca Empire)

[serebryakov]

May I sign in?

[Glen]

May I sign in?

Certainly! The more the merrier (and the less work for the rest of us).

[Glen]

I am going to try and put up a sign-up thread this evening for people to adopt their nation(s).

The rules will be -

You pick an OTL nation from 1492/3. Every twenty-four hours after the thread is posted, you may pick another (not twenty-four hours after your last pick). If you have missed one or more twenty-four hour round(s), you may select as many nations as there have been rounds to catch you up. The only advantage of choosing nations every twenty-four hours is to maximize your chances of getting assigned the nations you are most interested in.

People can release nations at any time if they decide they do not want that one, and may trade for nation(s) not yet chosen up to the number of rounds selection is up to. There is no limit to the number of nations you may select total, but please be realistic and choose a manageable number. Also recommend you choose nations you are familiar with if possible. Especially desirable would be people selecting nations they are familiar with that most people are not.

Remember, the first several decades you will have to be fairly true to the nation's OTL character, making plausible changes to the timeline (though if well selected, those can be cumulative and have some significant effects over time).

I will say that chaos effects in general are in effect with regards to genetic combination for births from the beginning of the PODs, but will note two things that can be used to mitigate against that in terms of painting an alternate history that has some figures that resemble OTL, even several generations out. First is to note that people in general weren't moving around much during this timeperiod in the Old World, so many are still likely to pair off the same way, even after the POD, at least for many years. Also, family names are quite strong in this time, so it wouldn't be surprising to see many figures with the same names as OTL figures a few generations out, even if they have different genetic heritages. So long as you paint in general brushes your histories, this shouldn't be a big thing. But if you want to get into specific traits, precise birth dates, etc, please do vary them some from OTL to show this.

[Glen]

I am going to try and put up a sign-up thread this evening for people to adopt their nation(s).

The rules will be -

You pick an OTL nation from 1492/3. Every twenty-four hours after the thread is posted, you may pick another (not twenty-four hours after your last pick). If you have missed one or more twenty-four hour round(s), you may select as many nations as there have been rounds to catch you up. The only advantage of choosing nations every twenty-four hours is to maximize your chances of getting assigned the nations you are most interested in.

People can release nations at any time if they decide they do not want that one, and may trade for nation(s) not yet chosen up to the number of rounds selection is up to. There is no limit to the number of nations you may select total, but please be realistic and choose a manageable number. Also recommend you choose nations you are familiar with if possible. Especially desirable would be people selecting nations they are familiar with that most people are not.

Remember, the first several decades you will have to be fairly true to the nation's OTL character, making plausible changes to the timeline (though if well selected, those can be cumulative and have some significant effects over time).

I will say that chaos effects in general are in effect with regards to genetic combination for births from the beginning of the PODs, but will note two things that can be used to mitigate against that in terms of painting an alternate history that has some figures that resemble OTL, even several generations out. First is to note that people in general weren't moving around much during this timeperiod in the Old World, so many are still likely to pair off the same way, even after the POD, at least for many years. Also, family names are quite strong in this time, so it wouldn't be surprising to see many figures with the same names as OTL figures a few generations out, even if they have different genetic heritages. So long as you paint in general brushes your histories, this shouldn't be a big thing. But if you want to get into specific traits, precise birth dates, etc, please do vary them some from OTL to show this.

[Glen]

This Mesoamerican map, though a few decades later, may be of some use orienting as to what is out there in 1492/3.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1019147&postcount=636

[Glen]

This Mesoamerican map, though a few decades later, may be of some use orienting as to what is out there in 1492/3.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1019147&postcount=636

[pa_dutch]

It's pretty accurate, only really missing the numerous small Mayan kingdoms that dot the Yucatan Peninsula. As for the 1492 base map, I'm not sure what those polities in Amazonia are supposed to be... There's growing, recent evidence of urbanized societies there, but they were long gone by the time Europeans reached the area.

[pa_dutch]

It's pretty accurate, only really missing the numerous small Mayan kingdoms that dot the Yucatan Peninsula. As for the 1492 base map, I'm not sure what those polities in Amazonia are supposed to be... There's growing, recent evidence of urbanized societies there, but they were long gone by the time Europeans reached the area.

[General_Paul]

Count me in for this one! I'm really interested in joining in. I'm thinking about looking into RP'ing either one of the Mongol empires, or the Ming Dynasty in China.

[Glen]

Count me in for this one! I'm really interested in joining in. I'm thinking about looking into RP'ing either one of the Mongol empires, or the Ming Dynasty in China.

Welcome aboard, GP. Been too long...

[General_Paul]

Welcome aboard, GP. Been too long...

Aye, that it has.

[Agentdark]

I am considering taking the Holy Roman Empire, but I confess to not knowing much about it, anyone got a good source of information?

[Glen]

I am considering taking the Holy Roman Empire, but I confess to not knowing much about it, anyone got a good source of information?

You can always start with wikipedia. I suspect that will be a popular one, so we'll have to see once the selection thread is opened.

However, if you don't know much about it, I don't know that I would suggest that. There's a lot of people out there who do. If you are going to have to do a lot of research anyway, you might want to pick something less obvious.

However, we'll see when the time of selection comes.

[pa_dutch]

I think I'll play something Native American, to take up the challenge of keeping it from being conquered.

[Atom]

I think I'll play something Native American, to take up the challenge of keeping it from being conquered.

As will I.

[Tom Veil]

As will I ... if there's room. :D

[Psychomeltdown]

I'd like to give it a whirl, mainly because I've been trying to do a lot more learnin' in the area of the Age of Exploration, East and West relations.

So if the nation is still free. i'd like to go Portugal. :D

[Glen]

I'll take England if there are no objections.

[Glen]

Sign Up Thread's Open

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=61644

[Glen]

Sign Up Thread's Open

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=61644

[Psychomeltdown]

Portugal. I guess.

[Nicksplace27]

the Republic of Venice

[Jacobite]

I would be very happy to aid you Glen, my knowledge of Scotland's history is pretty good from Alexander the Second upwards. Although my continental history isn't that stellar...

[Jacobite]

I would take my homeland of Scotland if that's alright with you Glen.

[Locke]

Viva la Spain (my mum is from there)

[General_Paul]

I'll take the Ming Dynasty! I've got some...interesting plans for the Ming rulers in the coming years.

[The Sicilian]

Naples. Sicilian reconquista! (err..riconquista)

[Jacobite]

Reminds me of imperialism only more professional!

I just hope i can participate.

[Glen]

I would take my homeland of Scotland if that's alright with you Glen.

Scotland was an independent nation at the time. You are fine.

[Atom]

I will take the various tribes of the Pacific northwest of North America.

[Tom Veil]

Iroquois, aka Haudenosaunee

[Jacobite]

James the 4th if i remember correctly, ill go and reread the information on that specific time.

[Fire God]

Here's another list, although it's 1494.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_1494

[Fire God]

Here's another list, although it's 1494.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_1494

[Glen]

I will take the various tribes of the Pacific northwest of North America.

Sorry Atom, that is both too many at once, and not specific enough. Can you identify a specific group in the Pacific Northwest?

[Glen]

I see we have a bunch of people newer to the board volunteering for the project, which is great! And some are making some rather intriguing selections.

However, just remember that you will be held initially to historical accuracy and always to high standards of plausibility.

[Glen]

I see we have a bunch of people newer to the board volunteering for the project, which is great! And some are making some rather intriguing selections.

However, just remember that you will be held initially to historical accuracy and always to high standards of plausibility.

[Glen]

Here's another list, although it's 1494.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_1494

Thank you, quite useful.

[Glen]

Here's another list, although it's 1494.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_1494

Thank you, quite useful.

[Jacobite]

I see we have a bunch of people newer to the board volunteering for the project, which is great! And some are making some rather intriguing selections.

However, just remember that you will be held initially to historical accuracy and always to high standards of plausibility.

Plausability is a must yes, but historical accuracy will gradually diminish over the years i expect. With all the minor changes that are bound to happen. Though i do expect things such as the War of the League of Cambrai to go ahead as near historically accurate initially.

Thanks for the welcome by the way!

[Glen]

Plausability is a must yes, but historical accuracy will gradually diminish over the years i expect.

As do I, thus the 'initially' part.

With all the minor changes that are bound to happen. Though i do expect things such as the War of the League of Cambrai to go ahead as near historically accurate initially.

Thanks for the welcome by the way!

De Nada.

[Jacobite]

I do apoligise, i must have skipped over initially while reading it.

[Smaug]

Never done this before. Hows it work? Just curious:)

[RCTFI]

Could I claim Bavaria? (Yes, colony-less, land-locked, Bavaria...)

[Glen]

Never done this before. Hows it work? Just curious:)

I suggest you peruse the following....


http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=61547

[Glen]

Could I claim Bavaria? (Yes, colony-less, land-locked, Bavaria...)

I'm sorry, but Bavaria was still divided in 1492/3.

You have three alternatives.

Take the various parts of Bavaria round by round, realizing that they may not be available to you and you may have to conquer the rest from another participant.

Or you can take the entire Holy Roman Empire, change the timeline for a few years of play until you have the Bavaria you want (if you can), split it off, and then abandon the rest for another participant to take up or to have as a 'NPC' nation.

Or you could choose something else.

[DrakeRlugia]

Any chance I could take the reigns of France?

If not them, I'm willing to settle for Navarre.

[Glen]

Any chance I could take the reigns of France?

If not them, I'm willing to settle for Navarre.

France is open. You can claim it.

[KineticBots]

Well, if nobody else will claim her, I would like to have a crack at Japan.
I'm currently writing an AH based in early Tokugawa Japan, so I think I can handle this. Also, my university major, and I have lived there.
Regards,
KineticBots

[Fire God]

I'll take Tibet, if that applies. If not, then Republic of Ragusa.

[Glen]

I'll take Tibet, if that applies. If not, then Republic of Ragusa.

Tibet applies.

[pa_dutch]

Mapuche peoples of Patagonia, please.

[DuQuense]

I am going to go for Ethiopia.
I see a good POD in the Death of Emperor Eskender -1494- age 22. [slow gradual changes will result]

:confused: :confused: :confused: Question:confused: :confused: :confused:
?Given the confusion in Scandnavia at the time is it one <Kalmar Union> or two <Denmark/Norway-Sweden/Finland>?

[pompejus]

Could I get the territory of Philip the Handsome? Which should be the county of Burgundy and the Burgundian Netherlands? According to wikipedia :
Duke of Brabant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Brabant), Limburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Limburg) and Lothier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Lothier),
Duke of Luxemburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts%2C_Dukes_and_Grand_Dukes_of_Luxembourg), Margrave of Namur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_of_Namur), Count of Artois (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_of_Artois) and Flanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_of_Flanders),
Count of Charolais (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charolais),
Count of Hainaut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_of_Hainaut), Holland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_of_Holland) and Zeeland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_of_Zeeland),
Count Palatine of Burgundy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_counts_of_Burgundy)

[LightInfa]

I am going to go for Ethiopia.
I see a good POD in the Death of Emperor Eskender -1494- age 22. [slow gradual changes will result]

:confused: :confused: :confused: Question:confused: :confused: :confused:
?Given the confusion in Scandnavia at the time is it one <Kalmar Union> or two <Denmark/Norway-Sweden/Finland>?

As of 1492, Sweden is not ruled by a king of the Kalmar Union. Sweden was brought back into the union in 1497.

[LightInfa]

I would like to take Sweden as my country.

[Oddball]

As of 1492, Sweden is not ruled by a king of the Kalmar Union. Sweden was brought back into the union in 1497.

I think this is a matter of definition :)

Sten Sture the Elder was Regent at the time.

But in the Kalmar recess of 1483 the Swedish nobility and clerics agreed to take King Hans of Denmark and Norway as King of Sweden.

Sture was strong enough to refuse the recess until 1497, but he never titeled himself king.

I guess this will be a tricky one :p :D

[Redbeard]

I would like to play from the Throne of Denmark, with whatever that includes (S-H, Norway and at least formally Sweden) - perhaps in partnership with other "Norsemen" (Oddball, Arctic Warrior, Bluenote?). I'm away all next week though - in Paris :)

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

[Analytical Engine]

Portugal please (if its available).

[LightInfa]

I think this is a matter of definition :)

Sten Sture the Elder was Regent at the time.

But in the Kalmar recess of 1483 the Swedish nobility and clerics agreed to take King Hans of Denmark and Norway as King of Sweden.

Sture was strong enough to refuse the recess until 1497, but he never titeled himself king.

I guess this will be a tricky one :p :D

But basically, Sweden was independent of the Union until King Hans finally became king of Sweden in 1497.

[Glen]

I would like to take Sweden as my country.

I would like to play from the Throne of Denmark, with whatever that includes (S-H, Norway and at least formally Sweden) - perhaps in partnership with other "Norsemen" (Oddball, Arctic Warrior, Bluenote?). I'm away all next week though - in Paris :)

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Why don't you two work together on this, with LightInfa in charge of 'Sweden' and Redbeard the rest of the Kalmar Union.

[Oddball]

Why don't you two work together on this, with LightInfa in charge of 'Sweden' and Redbeard the rest of the Kalmar Union.

I have a sneaky suspicion that there will be some kind of conflict of interrest... :D :D :D

[drakensis]

In the event of no objections, I wish to lay claim to Ming China, under the rule of the Hongzhi Emperor.

[Oddball]

But basically, Sweden was independent of the Union until King Hans finally became king of Sweden in 1497.

Im in nitpicking mode now, but: :o

The KU never was a merger of the three kingdoms anyway. It was a personal union of three (in theory) equal kingdoms.

For practical purposes Sture did what he wanted in Sweden, so yes in that sence Sweden was independent.

But atleast after 1483 there was little doubt that Sweden was a part of the KU, and thus the Danish king was also king in Sweden.

[Frederick the Great]

Can I have France?

[Glen]

Could I get the territory of Philip the Handsome? Which should be the county of Burgundy and the Burgundian Netherlands? According to wikipedia :
Duke of Brabant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Brabant), Limburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Limburg) and Lothier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of_Lothier),
Duke of Luxemburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts%2C_Dukes_and_Grand_Dukes_of_Luxembourg), Margrave of Namur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_of_Namur), Count of Artois (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_of_Artois) and Flanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_of_Flanders),
Count of Charolais (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charolais),
Count of Hainaut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_of_Hainaut), Holland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_of_Holland) and Zeeland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_of_Zeeland),
Count Palatine of Burgundy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_counts_of_Burgundy)


27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Titular Duke of Burgundy as Philip IV
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Duke of Brabant as Philip III
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Duke of Limburg as Philip III
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Duke of Lothier as Philip III
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Duke of Luxemburg as Philip II
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Margrave of Namur as Philip V
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count Palatine of Burgundy as Philip VI
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count of Artois as Philip VI
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count of Charolais as Philip III
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count of Flanders as Philip IV
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count of Hainault as Philip II
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count of Holland as Philip II
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count of Zeeland as Philip II

Okay, I'm going to give a guarded yes, since the Habsburgs tend to pull these things together. However, you have til 1506 to change history in a plausible manner, or you're going to lose those lands.

[Glen]

In the event of no objections, I wish to lay claim to Ming China, under the rule of the Hongzhi Emperor.

Already claimed by General Paul. Please make another selection.

[Analytical Engine]

Can I have Portugal, please.

[Glen]

Can I have France?

Already claimed. Check out the sign up thread below to see what's been claimed and to make further claims.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=61644

[Glen]

Can I have Portugal, please.

You claimed it first in the sign up thread, right? If so, then you have it.

[Analytical Engine]

You claimed it first in the sign up thread, right? If so, then you have it.

Yes and thank you. :D

[drakensis]

Already claimed by General Paul. Please make another selection.

Sorry, I'd searched on China to see if it was taken and his post therefore didn't come up as it uses Ming Dynasty. My bad.

[Grimm Reaper]

What hasn't been claimed as of now?

[Jacobite]

Portugal please (if its available).

I think its already claimed by Psychomeltdown.

[Jacobite]

Current claims are the following.

Glen - England
Psychomeltdown - Portugal
Nicksplace27 - Venice
Jacobite - Scotland
Locke - Spain
General_Paul - Ming China
Messiniano - Naples
Tom Veil - Iroquois, aka Haudenosaunee
Drakerlugia - France
Kineticbots - Japan
SleepaholicAgent - Tibet
PaDutch - Mapuche peoples of Patagonia
Daquense - Ethiopia
Pompejus - Burgundy and the Burgundian Netherlands
Lightinfa - Sweden
Redbeard - Denmark/Norway

Thread for sign-ups is in the before 1900 board.

[Jacobite]

Current claims are the following.

Glen - England
Psychomeltdown - Portugal
Nicksplace27 - Venice
Jacobite - Scotland
Locke - Spain
General_Paul - Ming China
Messiniano - Naples
Tom Veil - Iroquois, aka Haudenosaunee
Drakerlugia - France
Kineticbots - Japan
SleepaholicAgent - Tibet
PaDutch - Mapuche peoples of Patagonia
Daquense - Ethiopia
Pompejus - Burgundy and the Burgundian Netherlands
Lightinfa - Sweden
Redbeard - Denmark/Norway

Thread for sign-ups is in the before 1900 board.

[Jacobite]

Current claims are the following.

Glen - England
Psychomeltdown - Portugal
Nicksplace27 - Venice
Jacobite - Scotland
Locke - Spain
General_Paul - Ming China
Messiniano - Naples
Tom Veil - Iroquois, aka Haudenosaunee
Drakerlugia - France
Kineticbots - Japan
SleepaholicAgent - Tibet
PaDutch - Mapuche peoples of Patagonia
Daquense - Ethiopia
Pompejus - Burgundy and the Burgundian Netherlands
Lightinfa - Sweden
Redbeard - Denmark/Norway

Thread for sign-ups is in the before 1900 board.

[Analytical Engine]

I think its already claimed by Psychomeltdown.

D'oh.:(

Fine, then I'll take Brandenburg.

[serebryakov]

Can I take Poland? Is it considered to be in personal union with Lithuania, or not? (Casimir IV died on June 7th 1492, and union was temporarily dissolved).

[john]

If I take the Papal States do I get to be Pope?

[RCTFI]

I'm sorry, but Bavaria was still divided in 1492/3.

You have three alternatives.

Take the various parts of Bavaria round by round, realizing that they may not be available to you and you may have to conquer the rest from another participant.

Or you can take the entire Holy Roman Empire, change the timeline for a few years of play until you have the Bavaria you want (if you can), split it off, and then abandon the rest for another participant to take up or to have as a 'NPC' nation.

Or you could choose something else.

Alright, I claim the Holy Roman Empire. Sorry about the accidental thing - it was just that Bavaria was on that list of countries that could be claimed on the other thread. Sorry again, thanks for the clarification. (And for not calling me a stupid n00b...)

[RCTFI]

I've got a couple of questions. First, can we trade who controls what once the game is already under way? If so, then can we claim a territory, and then have it split into two (or even three) different states, and then swap around those states?

[Glen]

I've got a couple of questions. First, can we trade who controls what once the game is already under way? If so, then can we claim a territory, and then have it split into two (or even three) different states, and then swap around those states?

Short answer is yes to all. The purpose of the selection is to have clear areas of control, and not have any one person come in and grab everything at once.

[Agentdark]

I would like to take the Khanate of the Krimea, its a state I acually know something about....

[Glen]

If I take the Papal States do I get to be Pope?

Yes, yes you do.

[Agentdark]

I just posted my claim for the Khanate of the Krimea, I wonder how much independance I can pull off....

[Glen]

Can I take Poland? Is it considered to be in personal union with Lithuania, or not? (Casimir IV died on June 7th 1492, and union was temporarily dissolved).

Double check, but if it was still dissolved on March 15, 1493, then you can only take Poland this round. If unclaimed by 7 pm Eastern Daylight Time, you can then take Lithuania as well and work to make certain history repeats herself.:D

[Glen]

D'oh.:(

Fine, then I'll take Brandenburg.

Sorry about that. You can have Brandenburg if it is a nation in 1492/3. Can someone check its status quick?

[Glen]

Alright, I claim the Holy Roman Empire. Sorry about the accidental thing - it was just that Bavaria was on that list of countries that could be claimed on the other thread. Sorry again, thanks for the clarification. (And for not calling me a stupid n00b...)

You're not. There's always some things we have to straighten out through the process.

Your claim to the Holy Roman Empire is noted with the caveat that Analytical Engine may be working your subject nation of Brandenburg. If so, he controls the actions within that territory and its subjects, though you can always crush them on occassion if they get uppity.:D

[Glen]

I would like to take the Khanate of the Krimea, its a state I acually know something about....

Go ahead. Just recall that you are a subject state of the Ottomans.

[Agentdark]

I know, I have some interesting things I want to do involving that

[serebryakov]

Double check, but if it was still dissolved on March 15, 1493, then you can only take Poland this round. If unclaimed by 7 pm Eastern Daylight Time, you can then take Lithuania as well and work to make certain history repeats herself.:D
Then - Poland. Both crowns remained separate from 1492 till 1501, when Jan Olbracht Jagiellon died, and his brother Alexander of Lithuania got crown of Poland as well.

[Glen]

Glen - England
Psychomeltdown - Portugal
Nicksplace27 - Venice
Jacobite - Scotland
Locke - Spain
General_Paul - Ming China
Messiniano - Naples
Tom Veil - Iroquois, aka Haudenosaunee
Drakerlugia - France
Kineticbots - Japan
SleepaholicAgent - Tibet
PaDutch - Mapuche peoples of Patagonia
Daquense - Ethiopia
Pompejus - Burgundy and the Burgundian Netherlands
Lightinfa - Sweden
Redbeard - Denmark/Norway
Analytical Engine - Brandenburg (tentative)
serebryakov - Poland
RCTFI - Holy Roman Empire
Agentdark - Khanate of the Krimea

[Keenir]

May I be the Ottomans?

(I have no reason to be tough on the Khanate - I suspect the Empire's attentions will be on other borders)


Agentdark - Khanate of the Krimea

[Max Sinister]

Yet free: Lithuania, Hungary, Russia, Ottoman Empire, Persia, Mamluk Egypt, Indian states, Barbaresque states, Aztecs, Maya, Inca.

[pompejus]

27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Titular Duke of Burgundy as Philip IV
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Duke of Brabant as Philip III
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Duke of Limburg as Philip III
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Duke of Lothier as Philip III
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Duke of Luxemburg as Philip II
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Margrave of Namur as Philip V
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count Palatine of Burgundy as Philip VI
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count of Artois as Philip VI
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count of Charolais as Philip III
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count of Flanders as Philip IV
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count of Hainault as Philip II
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count of Holland as Philip II
27 March 1482–25 September 1506: Count of Zeeland as Philip II

Okay, I'm going to give a guarded yes, since the Habsburgs tend to pull these things together. However, you have til 1506 to change history in a plausible manner, or you're going to lose those lands.

What exactly do you mean? Can't i leave all those territories to an heir? Or do I need to form them into one state (like Charles V did)?

BTW I believe most of these counties/duchies are also part of the HRE.

[john]

Ok, I claim the Papal States:cool:

[Keenir]

Yet free: Lithuania, Hungary, Russia, Ottoman Empire, Persia, Mamluk Egypt, Indian states, Barbaresque states, Aztecs, Maya, Inca.

I don't think anyone's claimed the Maori yet...if nobody does, I might claim them tomorrow.

[Jacobite]

The seat of the Pope was vacant at this time as well, until Celestine the Fifth in 1492.

So good luck future Pope!

[Glen]

What exactly do you mean? Can't i leave all those territories to an heir? Or do I need to form them into one state (like Charles V did)?

BTW I believe most of these counties/duchies are also part of the HRE.

Just saying you're going to need to figure out the nature of those regions to one another.

[marl_d]

I'll Take Russia....I get to be Ivan the Great :D :D :D

[Keenir]

I'll Take Russia....I get to be Ivan the Great :D :D :D
:cool:
just don't harm Poland, and we'll get along fine. (even in the 1400s, they were allies of my Empire)

[AJNolte]

Can I claim the Knights of Rhodes?

[marl_d]

:cool:
just don't harm Poland, and we'll get along fine. (even in the 1400s, they were allies of my Empire)

no prob here...i've got some plans for russia....little more liberal and more seafaring...:eek: :D :cool:

[AJNolte]

Oh, and I assume we post our changes in the other thread?

[Glen]

Oh, and I assume we post our changes in the other thread?

There will be a separate thread for that eventually.

[marl_d]

hey Glen can you post an update on who has what?

[Tom Veil]

I don't think anyone's claimed the Maori yet...if nobody does, I might claim them tomorrow.

The Maori hadn't unified at that point; in fact, I don't believe that anyone claimed to represent all Maori until the New Zealand land wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_land_wars) in the 1800s.

[Keenir]

The Maori hadn't unified at that point; in fact, I don't believe that anyone claimed to represent all Maori until the New Zealand land wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_land_wars) in the 1800s.

hey, if someone can claim any of the Pacific Northwest tribes (who also weren't unified), then the Maori are fair game for anyone interested.
:cool:

[Glen]

I'll Take Russia....I get to be Ivan the Great :D :D :D

I don't know that there is a Russia yet. Grand Duchy of Moscovy?

[Glen]

Can I claim the Knights of Rhodes?

They were in control of Rhodes?

[Glen]

The Maori hadn't unified at that point; in fact, I don't believe that anyone claimed to represent all Maori until the New Zealand land wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_land_wars) in the 1800s.

IF you can identify a specific tribe as historical, I'll allow you to start with that one. However, that's going to be difficult as contact with New Zealand appears to have only started in the 1600s.

[Glen]

hey, if someone can claim any of the Pacific Northwest tribes (who also weren't unified), then the Maori are fair game for anyone interested.
:cool:

Actually, that claim was denied. You need to identify a historical nation to be able to use that.

[Jacobite]

I don't know that there is a Russia yet. Grand Duchy of Moscovy?

Ivan the Third, Grand Duchy of Muscovy in 1492. Russia was officially created in 1547 By Ivan the Fourth i think.

About Rhodes, it fell to The Ottoman Empire in 1522, the knights still had it in 1492.

[marl_d]

January 1493 - Ivan III of Russia declares himself gosudar' vseja Rusi - "Lord of all Rus'".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1493

Ivan IV was the first Tsar

[marl_d]

either way... just cuz he didn't have the Title Tsar doesn't mean he wasn't ruler of Russia...just not Tsar...but thats a moot point...Grand Duchy of Muscovy/Russia is what I claim

[Jacobite]

either way...thats my claim

I get you now yeah, i was just pointing out that 'Russia' didnt exist at that time. Muscovy however had almost all of what you would consider European Russia...so it doesn't matter really.

[Keenir]

Actually, that claim was denied.

oh. okay; sorry.

You need to identify a historical nation to be able to use that.

okay.

[Locke]

Glen Im a bit confused on what were doing here. Are we creating timelines for our nations, with POD no earlier than 1492?

[Glen]

either way... just cuz he didn't have the Title Tsar doesn't mean he wasn't ruler of Russia...just not Tsar...but thats a moot point...Grand Duchy of Muscovy/Russia is what I claim
Fair enough. Muscovy to the Tsar of all Rus.

[Glen]

Glen Im a bit confused on what were doing here. Are we creating timelines for our nations, with POD no earlier than 1492?

No.

We are creating a shared world timeline, through multiple small but increasingly divergent PODs. We all start out with responsibility for the OTL nations we 'adopt' from March 15, 1493. All changes in the timeline must come after that.

We will write events for those areas we control. If your nation(s) successfully send out colonies or conquer territories, you also are responsible for writing the events for those areas as well.

'NPC' areas will continue on their same general historical course (though the names and faces might be slightly different) until interacting with the changes we write into the timeline. If NPC areas change significantly during those interactions but still aren't 'claimed' then when necessary the group by concensus will work out a rough outline, at least enough so they can interact with the rest of the world.

If a nation under one person is conquered entirely by the nation of another, the conquered person will either choose some uncontrolled nation to continue with, collaborate with the conquering person for that part of his/her 'empire', or may portray a small resistance and/or government in exile, only controlling those people but not the land around them, unless they successfully migrate to an uncontrolled area, in which case they could set up shop anew.

If there is not concensus on an event or series of events, it will be decided by a moderator. Right now, I am the only moderator, though I will look for a few others to help out. If the moderators can't decide, then I will be the one who decides. In the event that I have a vested interest in the decision (either writing or effected by the event), I will before we start the timeline recruit someone, perhaps outside the timeline entirely, as the tiebreaker in that situation.

The idea here is to create a 500+ year alternate timeline from the Age of Discovery to the present. This is not a game so much as a shared effort. There will be a lot of work to master the historical details necessary to make plausible alterations to events for the first several decades of the timeline, then even more work as we begin generating entirely new history that must remain plausible, preferably to the point as being considered as likely as anything in OTL.

[Glen]

Claim list as of now.

Glen - England
Psychomeltdown - Portugal
Nicksplace27 - Venice
Jacobite - Scotland
Locke - Spain
General_Paul - Ming China
Messiniano - Naples
Tom Veil - Iroquois, aka Haudenosaunee
Drakerlugia - France
Kineticbots - Japan
SleepaholicAgent - Tibet
PaDutch - Mapuche peoples of Patagonia
Daquense - Ethiopia
Pompejus - Burgundy and the Burgundian Netherlands
Lightinfa - Sweden
Redbeard - Denmark/Norway
Analytical Engine - Brandenburg (tentative)
serebryakov - Poland
RCTFI - Holy Roman Empire
Agentdark - Khanate of the Krimea
Keenir - Ottoman Empire
john - Papal States
marl d - Moscovy/Rus
AJNolte - Rhodes

[Atom]

May I claim the tawantinsinyu (inca)? if I do then, I will be in conflict with PaDutch.

[AJNolte]

They were in control of Rhodes?

Until 1523 I think, when the third Ottoman siege of Rhodes kicked them out and they landed on Malta. The Ottomans had just tried--and failed--in 1483.

[pa_dutch]

May I claim the tawantinsinyu (inca)? if I do then, I will be in conflict with PaDutch.

The Incas and the Mapuche had clashes, but they weren't recorded in history neither people had written languages. If you manage to keep the Incas from being conquered from the Spanish, though, (which in my opinion is possible, depending how Mesoamerica goes) there will definately be conflict.

[pa_dutch]

...Speaking of which, if the Spanish conquer the Incas, for example, does the person playing the Incas take up the role of the Viceroyalty of Peru, or does the person playing Spain do that?

[BlackMage]

I'd like to claim the Kingdom of Gowa, in Sulawesi.

For more info: http://4dw.net/royalark/Indonesia/gowa.htm

Or is it too obscure?

[Cthulhu]

I'd like to be Great Speaker of the Mexica Empire, known to the west as the Aztecs. If I can get some other people to fill out the rest of the triple alliance, we can have some great Flower Wars together.

[Glen]

Current claims below. Note that 24 hours have now passed, and you may select another nation if you only have one, or two if you have not yet selected a nation.

Glen - England
Psychomeltdown - Portugal
Nicksplace27 - Venice
Jacobite - Scotland
Locke - Spain
General_Paul - Ming China
Messiniano - Naples
Tom Veil - Iroquois, aka Haudenosaunee
Drakerlugia - France
Kineticbots - Japan
SleepaholicAgent - Tibet
pa dutch - Mapuche peoples of Patagonia
DuQuense - Ethiopia
Pompejus - Burgundy and the Burgundian Netherlands
Lightinfa - Sweden
Redbeard - Denmark/Norway
Analytical Engine - Brandenburg (tentative)
serebryakov - Poland
RCTFI - Holy Roman Empire
Agentdark - Khanate of the Krimea
Keenir - Ottoman Empire
john - Papal States
marl d - Moscovy/Rus
AJNolte - Rhodes
Atom - Tawantinsinyu (Inca)
BlackMage - Gowa
Cthulhu - Mexica (Aztecs)

[Glen]

Although technically under the English Crown, since its rulership at the time was a bit shaky, just to clarify things, I will take the Lordship of Ireland.:)

[Jacobite]

Although technically under the English Crown, since its rulership at the time was a bit shaky, just to clarify things, I will take the Lordship of Ireland.:)

Why do i get the strange feeling that im going to be annexed? :D

Yeah Glen, it was disputed at the time but i believe Ulster was the only major hold-out.

[BlackMage]

And here's a map of the selected areas, barring the Mapuche (who I've never heard of before). Countries already chosen are in brown; I tried for red, but the image format wouldn't allow it. It's rather ugly, but serviceable.

I've almost certainly made some form of grevious error along the way, but it's a rough approximation.

[Jacobite]

Only mistake i see is Hispaniola which was claimed by the Spanish and thus should be brown plus Ireland which is now English.

[BlackMage]

Only mistake i see is Hispaniola which was claimed by the Spanish and thus should be brown plus Ireland which is now English.

Thanks for the correction re: Hispaniola. As for Ireland, I made the map while you guys were talking, so it's now been corrected.

I'm not sure what I'm going to claim next; maybe the Gunditjmara, in southern Victoria, Australia, but I'll have to think about it first. It's a public holiday, so I've got all day.

[LightInfa]

Added a dotted line between Sweden and Denmark-Norway to distinguish those seperate claims within the Kalmar Union.

[The Sicilian]

So, we get to pick a new nation after evry 24 hours? If so then I choose the Vijayanagara Empire.

[Glen]

Recall that Columbus is just returning from his first voyage to the New World. I don't think we can quite call Hispaniola as Spanish yet.

[RCTFI]

Short answer is yes to all. The purpose of the selection is to have clear areas of control, and not have any one person come in and grab everything at once.

Thanks for the clarification!

[DuQuense]

no prob here...i've got some plans for russia....little more liberal and more seafaring..Hard to do as all it has is the Baltic, & White seas, plus the Lappland/Norway coast.Added a dotted line between Sweden and Denmark-Norway to distinguish those seperate claims within the Kalmar Union. that line should show only the bottom third as Norway, Middle third as disputed with Sweden, and the top third as Russian.

Ethiopia needs some one to Claim Egypt, So there is a Patriarch of Alexandria.

[Glen]

Hard to do as all it has is the Baltic, & White seas, plus the Lappland/Norway coast. that line should show only the bottom third as Norway, Middle third as disputed with Sweden, and the top third as Russian.

Ethiopia needs some one to Claim Egypt, So there is a Patriarch of Alexandria.

DQ, its the second twenty-four hours. YOU could take Egypt....:rolleyes:

[Keenir]

Ethiopia needs some one to Claim Egypt, So there is a Patriarch of Alexandria.

why? Egypt's already got a Pope. ;)

if you pick Egypt, I promise not to declare war on you in the first 10 years. (after that, we'll see) :)

[Keenir]

Here's an idea for a shared worlds timeline/game.

The idea is that we start at 1492, when Columbus discovered the New World. Each participant will take responsibility for at least one nation of the time.

So, anyone interested?

if we find other events which happened in 1490-1492 (up to the divergence), do we post them in this thread?

[RCTFI]

Right now, I don't really know what else to claim - The oly Roman Empire is a really big collection of little states, so I'll just use my second chance to claim something to reaffirm my hold on it, although I guess if someone else wanted to claim another part of it, that would be okay, so long as they don't claim any of the southern states, since I'm planning on making an Uber Bavaria. :D

Oh, and john, my Emperor right now was the last Holy Roman Emperor to be crowned in Rome, but the Emperors still had a lot of involvment and conflicts with the Popes - maybe we can work something out...

[marl_d]

i'm going to grab Livonia Confederation

[pa_dutch]

My second claim shall be the Miskito tribe of Central America... A relatively minor cheifdom now, but they'll be important later.

[AJNolte]

why? Egypt's already got a Pope. ;)

if you pick Egypt, I promise not to declare war on you in the first 10 years. (after that, we'll see) :)

While you're promising not to declare war on people for ten years...

[BlackMage]

OK, I've decided: my second claim will be the Gunditjmara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunditjmara), of southern Victoria.

Why? Well: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/12/1047431092972.html

[Keenir]

While you're promising not to declare war on people for ten years...

I give you my word.

[john]

Can I take the Teutonic Knights?

[Atom]

How will we deal with international events? Also how much freedom do we have in changing nature? For instance say I wanted to move fish stocks farther out to shore or add new fish stocks in the area or near it that my people inhabit? Could i do that? Would I have to talk to Glen or others?

[Keenir]

My second choice are the Antandroy of southern Madagascar.

[Keenir]

How will we deal with international events? Also how much freedom do we have in changing nature? For instance say I wanted to move fish stocks farther out to shore or add new fish stocks in the area or near it that my people inhabit? Could i do that? Would I have to talk to Glen or others?

I'll hazard the guess that animal husbandry is allowed.

...but Acts Of God[tm] are probably not permitted.

[JP_Morgan]

I'll claim the Songhai Empire. They aren't gonna get totally screwed over by the Arabs, I got some plans in the works

[BlackMage]

I'll hazard the guess that animal husbandry is allowed.

...but Acts Of God[tm] are probably not permitted.

Well, how do you define 'an act of god'? A small gust of wind? A more bountiful than in OTL farming season? A tsunami destroying your enemies?

Where do we draw the line at acceptable PODs?

[AJNolte]

My second claim is the Kingdom of Congo, current ruler the recently converted Joao I.

[AJNolte]

I give you my word.

My POD will vaguely have to do with the Ottomans, but I can easily structure it so that it doesn't actually effect you in any way.

[DuQuense]

@ Keenir

if you pick Egypt, I promise not to declare war on you in the first 10 years. (after that, we'll see)

Big Deal, seeing how they didn't attack till the 1510's OTL.

[RCTFI]

Well, how do you define 'an act of god'? A small gust of wind? A more bountiful than in OTL farming season? A tsunami destroying your enemies?

Where do we draw the line at acceptable PODs?

Well, I'm not the mod, nor in any way, shape or form afiliated with the mod, but I'd be willing to bet that the tsunami at least would be out of the question...

[Haggis]

I would like to claim the Mvskoke tribes (Creek Indians) scattered throughout northern Alabama, Georgia, and southern Tennessee.

[Smaug]

I'd like to claim the Maya if thats ok.

[KineticBots]

Waiting for somebody to claim Korea (not that I want her).
With General_Paul to your West and myself across the ocean, I think the 'Hermit Kingdom' has interesting prospects for the *future*. Also, Korea is a pretty major player amongst what's left.

P.S. unless there are any objections from Glen or General_Paul, I would like to lay claim to the Ryukyuan Kingdom (Okinawa).

Regards,
KineticBots

[Fire God]

I agree KineticBots, 1494 is the year of ascension of King Yeongsangun, probably the most despotic and worst king ever in Korea. So there might be an opportunity for Joseon Korea to not decline during his short reign before being deposed in 1506.

Of course I would have taken it myself, as I'm kind of a Koreaphille, but I needed a little change in nation controlling once in a while. :)

[LacheyS]

If its possible, I would like to claim the Sultanate of Malacca. If I need to pick a second, I would like to have the Xhosa in what is now the Eastern Cape.

[Keenir]

I'm withdrawing my claim of anyone in Madagascar. the book I thought would be a good reference, skips that part of history.

sorry.

[BlackMage]

If its possible, I would like to claim the Sultanate of Malacca. If I need to pick a second, I would like to have the Xhosa in what is now the Eastern Cape.

Ooh, I'm glad someone else is getting into the many Indonesian states. Do you have any good sources on the region, by any chance? I've always been interested in Makassar (the Venice of the East Indies), but the internet is proving rather scarce...

[serebryakov]

It seems tha map is wrong: it shows Grand Duchy of Lithuania as taken, but it's not on the list.
If it's still free, I'd take it along with Poland. Together we stand, divided... well, you know.

[Analytical Engine]

I claim the Margravate of Brandenburg (since Portugal was already taken:( ).

[LacheyS]

Ooh, I'm glad someone else is getting into the many Indonesian states. Do you have any good sources on the region, by any chance? I've always been interested in Makassar (the Venice of the East Indies), but the internet is proving rather scarce...

I don't have a huge number of sources, only two books on South East Asian history and one of those focuses almost exclusively on Angkor and Srivijaya. So it is going to take a bit of research.

By the way, Malacca would be interested in reaching an agreement as to spheres of influence, as I imagine that you too will be interested in expansion. We would also be looking to extend an alliance to Angkor, in order to prevent the expansion of Ayutthaya (or is it still Sukhothai at this stage - will have to look into), and maybe even the Burmese.

I would certainly be looking to buy some iron from you.

[BlackMage]

I don't have a huge number of sources, only two books on South East Asian history and one of those focuses almost exclusively on Angkor and Srivijaya. So it is going to take a bit of research.

By the way, Malacca would be interested in reaching an agreement as to spheres of influence, as I imagine that you too will be interested in expansion. We would also be looking to extend an alliance to Angkor, in order to prevent the expansion of Ayutthaya (or is it still Sukhothai at this stage - will have to look into), and maybe even the Burmese.

I would certainly be looking to buy some iron from you.

Fascinating...you see, the new Karaeng of Gowa has received reports of a land to the south, long rumoured in myth and legend, which the trepangers call 'Marege'. Obviously, the existence of such a land would be highly absurd...but it would be worthy of examination, especially if its waters are as rich in trepang as have been acclaimed.

If we were given, shall we say, leeway in this field and this particular region, we would be most willing to support your endeavours to the north. I'm sure this could be the start of a beautiful friendship.

[Analytical Engine]

Since the HRE was hundreds of states in confederation, surely each state could be claimed.:D
Besides, technicaly, the Burgundinian States are also a part of the Empire.

However, our overlord will (of course) be the Holy Roman Emperor. I will be more than happy to assist the Emperor in my capacity of Prince and Prince-Elector of the Empire :D (especially in Northern Germany :D).

In that case, I will claim the Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg as my second claim.

P.S. according to my research, at this time, the Duchy of Pommerania was in the Brandenburger Sphere of Influence :D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_III_Achilles%2C_Elector_of_Brandenburg, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Prenzlau).

P.P.S. This map might be of some assistance - http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/central_europe_1477.jpg

[AJNolte]

Portugal. I guess.


Need to talk to you re: Congo.

[Glen]

How will we deal with international events? Also how much freedom do we have in changing nature? For instance say I wanted to move fish stocks farther out to shore or add new fish stocks in the area or near it that my people inhabit? Could i do that? Would I have to talk to Glen or others?

I'll hazard the guess that animal husbandry is allowed.

...but Acts Of God[tm] are probably not permitted.

Well, how do you define 'an act of god'? A small gust of wind? A more bountiful than in OTL farming season? A tsunami destroying your enemies?

Where do we draw the line at acceptable PODs?

Well, I'm not the mod, nor in any way, shape or form afiliated with the mod, but I'd be willing to bet that the tsunami at least would be out of the question...

You may unilaterally influence weather slightly within your sphere of control so long as it does not impact another participant's nation. If it does, you need concensus to do so, or a mod ruling in your favor.

Feel free to mess with the timing of storms, local droughts or good weather years. However, if you do too many bountiful harvests in a row counter to historical trends in your region, you may get dinged for plausibility.

Changing the basic nature of fisheries off your coast without human intervention would be out of bounds as implausible. Having a few strategically placed good harvests, or even a one or two year 'shift' in feeding zones within a reasonable distance of typical would be allowed, on the other hand.

Changing the weather to get a desired effect against an NPC nation so long as it is in keeping with the normal variation of the region would be allowed. It would also be allowed with regards to interaction with another participant's area of control, so long as both parties agree and there is no plausibility objection from the group. If it is in contention, then it goes to the mods to decide.

For example, let's say the Ming launch an armada at Japan with the intent of invasion. Both are controlled by participants. The Japanese are hoping for a 'Divine Wind' to save them. This is not an unreasonable hope as that region is known for such storms, and they have actually thwarted naval attacks in OTL. However, the Ming are hoping for the opposite. We may or may not know what the OTL weather was like for that particular date. If well known, that is the default. However, if less known, the mod can assign a probability to the event and roll some dice or use a random number generator to see if such a storm hits or not.

Weather and Geological history from OTL will be our default for NPC areas for the sake of ease. It will also be the default in your own areas unless you vary it a little with single, small events within the 'margin of error' of what could have been expected for your region, or more so if human activity makes a major impact on the terrain (overuse of the land and industrialization come to mind, for example).

[Glen]

I'd like to claim the Maya if thats ok.

I suggest you start by claiming two of the post-classical Mayan states. In subsequent rounds, you may choose more of them if you'd like. This should give you a 'Mayan' base, from which you may forge a new Mayan Confederation or whatever you like.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#Postclassic_period) :

"The Itza Maya, Ko'woj, and Yalain groups of Central Peten survived the "Classic Period Collapse" in small numbers and by 1250 reconstituted themselves to form competing city-states. The Itza maintained their capital at Tayasal (also known as Noh Petén), an archaeological site thought to underlay the modern city of Flores, Guatemala on Lake Petén Itzá. It ruled over an area extending across the Peten Lakes region, encompassing the community of Eckixil on Lake Quexil. The Ko'woj had their capital at Zacpeten. Postclassic Maya states also continued to survive in the southern highlands. One of the Maya kingdoms in this area, the Quiché, is responsible for the best-known Maya work of historiography and mythology, the Popol Vuh."

[Glen]

I would like to claim the Mvskoke tribes (Creek Indians) scattered throughout northern Alabama, Georgia, and southern Tennessee.

These peoples were basically living in autonomous villages at this time. Choose up to two of the tribes for now, and you may add more in subsequent rounds.

[marl_d]

when are you going to start the timeline?

[Glen]

If its possible, I would like to claim the Sultanate of Malacca. If I need to pick a second, I would like to have the Xhosa in what is now the Eastern Cape.

You need not choose a second, but may if you would like. Do you want the Xhosa in addition, or will you stick with the Malacca only?

[Tom Veil]

Weather and Geological history from OTL will be our default for NPC areas for the sake of ease. It will also be the default in your own areas unless you vary it a little with single, small events within the 'margin of error' of what could have been expected for your region, or more so if human activity makes a major impact on the terrain (overuse of the land and industrialization come to mind, for example).

I definitely agree about geological activity -- and I would recommend that players follow this principle for their own nations. My view of the butterfly theory is that if we were to start from 1492 all over again, the differences would not be great enough to affect the earthquakes or volcanoes that are "destined" to happen in OTL.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_earthquakes, the only huge earthquakes that we're due to see in the 1500s are:
Lisbon, Portugal earthquake (Jan 26, 1531)
Shaanxi, China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaanxi_Earthquake) earthquake (Jan 23, 1556)
Valdivia, Chile earthquake (Dec 16, 1575)

Plus, according to http://www.volcano.si.edu/world/eruptionlist.cfm
There are several minor volcanic eruptions, with the only really impressive one being Kelut, Indonesia (http://www.volcano.si.edu/world/volcano.cfm?vnum=0603-28=&volpage=erupt&format=expanded) (1586).

However, I will point out some room for creativity -- earthquake records before the 1800s are very spotty, so there's plenty of room to create your own minor earthquake, and have human events (like failing to control the fires) cause outsize results.

[Glen]

Glen - England, Ireland
Psychomeltdown - Portugal
Nicksplace27 - Venice
Jacobite - Scotland
Locke - Spain
General_Paul - Ming China
Messiniano - Naples, Vijayanagara Empire
Tom Veil - Iroquois (Haudenosaunee), Delhi Sultanate
Drakerlugia - France
Kineticbots - Japan
SleepaholicAgent - Tibet, Joseon (Korea)
pa dutch - Mapuche, Miskito
DuQuense - Ethiopia
Pompejus - Free County of Burgandy & Burgundian Netherlands
Lightinfa - Sweden
Redbeard - Denmark/Norway
Analytical Engine - Brandenburg, Brunswick-Lüneburg
serebryakov - Poland, Lithuania
RCTFI - Holy Roman Empire
Agentdark - Khanate of the Krimea
Keenir - Ottoman Empire
john - Papal States, Teutonic Prussia (Teutonic Knights)
marl d - Moscovy/Rus, Livonian Confederation
AJNolte - Rhodes, Kingdom of Kongo
Atom - Tawantinsinyu (Inca)
BlackMage - Gowa, Gunditjmara
Cthulhu - Mexica (Aztecs)
JP Morgan - Songhai Empire
LachyS - Sultanate of Malacca

Tentative pending clarification:

Haggis - Up to two tribes of the Creek (Muskogee)
Smaug - Up to two post-classical Mayan states
LachyS - May be taking the Xhosa, but needs to reaffirm

[Glen]

when are you going to start the timeline?

It will be a few weeks before we'll be ready to start the timeline. We need to go into more detail about the guidelines, and I want everyone to do some reading up on what their OTL nations are like in 1493. I might even ask that people post some information about their OTL nations to help us all know where we're starting from.

[Glen]

BTW, there have been a lot of general questions in this thread posted. Sometime today or tomorrow I will start cleaning it up by moving those to the general discussion threads, so you will be able to find them there.

Please try to post questions about the mechanics of the project in the general threads, and save this one for posts specific to allocating spheres of responsibility (aka claiming nations).

[Fire God]

I've waited long enough, my second claim will be the easiest nation for me.... Joseon Korea. :D

[Atom]

You may unilaterally influence weather slightly within your sphere of control so long as it does not impact another participant's nation. If it does, you need concensus to do so, or a mod ruling in your favor.

Feel free to mess with the timing of storms, local droughts or good weather years. However, if you do too many bountiful harvests in a row counter to historical trends in your region, you may get dinged for plausibility.

Changing the basic nature of fisheries off your coast without human intervention would be out of bounds as implausible. Having a few strategically placed good harvests, or even a one or two year 'shift' in feeding zones within a reasonable distance of typical would be allowed, on the other hand.

Changing the weather to get a desired effect against an NPC nation so long as it is in keeping with the normal variation of the region would be allowed. It would also be allowed with regards to interaction with another participant's area of control, so long as both parties agree and there is no plausibility objection from the group. If it is in contention, then it goes to the mods to decide.

For example, let's say the Ming launch an armada at Japan with the intent of invasion. Both are controlled by participants. The Japanese are hoping for a 'Divine Wind' to save them. This is not an unreasonable hope as that region is known for such storms, and they have actually thwarted naval attacks in OTL. However, the Ming are hoping for the opposite. We may or may not know what the OTL weather was like for that particular date. If well known, that is the default. However, if less known, the mod can assign a probability to the event and roll some dice or use a random number generator to see if such a storm hits or not.

Weather and Geological history from OTL will be our default for NPC areas for the sake of ease. It will also be the default in your own areas unless you vary it a little with single, small events within the 'margin of error' of what could have been expected for your region, or more so if human activity makes a major impact on the terrain (overuse of the land and industrialization come to mind, for example).

Thank you for clearing that up. So if say I wanted to move the Grey Whale migration routes slightly farther outwards from the Olympic peninsula for a few years, would that be okay?

Also I claim the makah tribe of the Olympic peninsula washington.

[Tocomocho]

I don't know what was going on Asia and Africa at that time, but I hope that this is a minimal accurate map of Christmas Day 1492:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/CayoDiplodocus/A-PV.jpg?t=1177514268

I'm not sure if I understand how the game will be, but I would like to play as the Tarascans.

[Analytical Engine]

I don't know what was going on Asia and Africa at that time, but I hope that this is a minimal accurate map of Christmas Day 1492:

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2585/apvcq7.png


Well, Africa/Asia shouldn't look too different from the 1500 map (it is only 8 years after all). Though, I could be wrong.:o

[Glen]

I've waited long enough, my second claim will be the easiest nation for me.... Joseon Korea. :D

Claim noted. And easy is definitely good. We want to make a strong, plausible joint timeline here, and having familiarity or expertise in your areas of responsibility can only help in this.

Also, EVERYONE please note that you get to make another claim every 24 hours FROM THE TIME THE CLAIM THREAD STARTED, not from your last claim.

So, at 7 pm Eastern Daylight Time today, everyone who has two claims may make a third, those with one claim may make up to two, those with no claim may make up to three.

Until that time, you can only have a maximum of two claims total, one yesterday and one today, or two today.

[Glen]

Thank you for clearing that up. So if say I wanted to move the Grey Whale migration routes slightly farther outwards from the Olympic peninsula for a few years, would that be okay?

Also I claim the makah tribe of the Olympic peninsula washington.

For a few years, yes. But I would expect them to move back to their traditional routes fairly quickly, unless some significant change has been made to make them vary.

[RCTFI]

Since the HRE was hundreds of states in confederation, surely each state could be claimed.:D
Besides, technicaly, the Burgundinian States are also a part of the Empire.

However, our overlord will (of course) be the Holy Roman Emperor. I will be more than happy to assist the Emperor in my capacity of Prince and Prince-Elector of the Empire :D (especially in Northern Germany :D).

In that case, I will claim the Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg as my second claim.

P.S. according to my research, at this time, the Duchy of Pommerania was in the Brandenburger Sphere of Influence :D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_III_Achilles%2C_Elector_of_Brandenburg, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Prenzlau).

P.P.S. This map might be of some assistance - http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/central_europe_1477.jpg

Well, I see the begining of a beautiful friendship... that, or we'll get into all sorts of arguments as our areas fight, and end up both getting banned... :D :D :D

Well, joke aside, I'm glad to have your help, and look forward to working together. Oh, and thanks for the links, I've found them very helpful.

[Tom Veil]

I will claim the Delhi_Sultanate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_Sultanate)

[Haggis]

These peoples were basically living in autonomous villages at this time. Choose up to two of the tribes for now, and you may add more in subsequent rounds.
Alright, I choose the Alibamu-Koasati peoples. That would be central Alabama if you don't mind.

[Glen]

Claims at 48 hours.

Glen - England, Ireland
Psychomeltdown - Portugal
Nicksplace27 - Venice
Jacobite - Scotland
Locke - Spain
General_Paul - Ming China
Messiniano - Naples, Vijayanagara Empire
Tom Veil - Iroquois (Haudenosaunee), Delhi Sultanate
Drakerlugia - France
Kineticbots - Japan, Ryukyu
SleepaholicAgent - Tibet, Joseon (Korea)
pa dutch - Mapuche, Miskito
DuQuense - Ethiopia
Pompejus - Free County of Burgandy & Burgundian Netherlands
Lightinfa - Sweden
Redbeard - Denmark/Norway
Analytical Engine - Brandenburg, Brunswick-Lüneburg
serebryakov - Poland, Lithuania
RCTFI - Holy Roman Empire
Agentdark - Khanate of the Krimea
Keenir - Ottoman Empire
john - Papal States, Teutonic Prussia (Teutonic Knights)
marl d - Moscovy/Rus, Livonian Confederation
AJNolte - Rhodes, Kingdom of Kongo
Atom - Tawantinsinyu (Inca), Makah
BlackMage - Gowa, Gunditjmara
Cthulhu - Mexica (Aztecs)
JP Morgan - Songhai Empire
LachyS - Sultanate of Malacca
Haggis - Alibamu-Koasati

Tentative pending clarification:

Smaug - Up to two post-classical Mayan states
LachyS - May be taking the Xhosa, but needs to reaffirm

[KineticBots]

My second claim is the Kingdom of Ryukyu, which at that time although a tributary of China, was still an independent state.;)
Just reminding you that this is my claim for the TL, not a claim by Japan for Ryukyu as a vassal or tributary (although this still may happen ;P)
regards,
KineticBots.

[Glen]

My second claim is the Kingdom of Ryukyu, which at that time although a tributary of China, was still an independent state.;)
Just reminding you that this is my claim for the TL, not a claim by Japan for Ryukyu as a vassal or tributary (although this still may happen ;P)
regards,
KineticBots.

Sorry, missed that one. Fixed now.

[Glen]

Oh what the heck.

I claim the Swiss Confederacy....

[The Sicilian]

I lay claim to the Duchy of Milan.

Wow. There are going to be a lot of conflicts with the person controling France.

[The Sicilian]

I have a question.
Say that two of my countries form a personal union and one gets incorporated into the other. I would be able to pick another nation, right?

[Atom]

Claims at 48 hours.

[...]
Atom - Tawantinsinyu (Inca)
[...]

Um, I alsoaid claim to the makah. has that claim been rejected too?

[Locke]

Do we have to stick with our country the entire time? I kinda want to.

[DrakeRlugia]

I lay claim to the Duchy of Milan.

Wow. There are going to be a lot of conflicts with the person controling France.

If the Milanese are good and lay down and accept French superiority and the uberness of the Valois dynasty, there won't be any conflict. ;)

Just kidding. I look forward to the Italian wars, actually.

As for my second nation, I'll abstain for now...France may be more than enough.

[RCTFI]

Oh what the heck.

I claim the Swiss Confederacy....

Well, then we're going to have a lot to discuss... especially since the Swiss Confederation was technically part of the Holy Roman Empire until 1499... (not protesting your claim - we just need to work out how the Swabian Wars will go).

As for my third claim, I once more vigorously re-iterate my desire to control the Holy Roman Empire, although in this case I claim Austria specifically. (To prevent confusion - even at this time, it was basically a de-facto part of the Holy Roman Empire.)

[The Sicilian]

Just kidding. I look forward to the Italian wars, actually.

You may joke around now, but when the Sicilian flag is flying over the reconquered Marseille, and when Paris is a burning ruin, we will see who is laughing!:D

But in all seriousness. France historically had claims to the thrones of two of my three nations (unless you plan on marring into a Southern Indian Empire). The Italian Wars will be much more interesting if both Milan and Naples are in an alliance.

[AJNolte]

Given the complexity of the situation in Northern Germany and the Baltic, what is the possibility of claiming the Hanseatic League? I'll tentitively do that, pending a review; after all I think this claim might conflict with a few territorial states.
BTW: what will the maximum number of claims be?

[Glen]

I have a question.
Say that two of my countries form a personal union and one gets incorporated into the other. I would be able to pick another nation, right?

What, you mean after we start the timeline?

We will keep a count of the nations you selected, as you select them, not the ones you are 'running'. After making the selections and the timeline starts, you can cut them up, or unite them. Doesn't effect your 'claim count'.

However, I suspect by the time we get the timeline going, we're going to have the world pretty well covered, with the rest likely to get 'colonized'. So it will really then just be a matter of people picking up 'relinquished' areas (bored, busy, etc.) or releasing areas for others to join in.

[Glen]

Um, I alsoaid claim to the makah. has that claim been rejected too?

Doh! My bad. You have the Makah.

[Nicksplace27]

If the Milanese are good and lay down and accept French superiority and the uberness of the Valois dynasty, there won't be any conflict. ;)

Just kidding. I look forward to the Italian wars, actually.

As for my second nation, I'll abstain for now...France may be more than enough.

haha, i'll look forward to the Italian wars as well. Get ready for a blockade!

[pa_dutch]

I'd like to claim Ohkay Owingeh (better known by its Spanish name, San Juan Pueblo) for my third pick, a Tewa-speaking Pueblo community. It won't be of much importance until the Pueblo Revolt.

[Glen]

Given the complexity of the situation in Northern Germany and the Baltic, what is the possibility of claiming the Hanseatic League? I'll tentitively do that, pending a review; after all I think this claim might conflict with a few territorial states.

How much do you know about the Hanseatic League?


BTW: what will the maximum number of claims be?

No maximum. If we can cover all the nations of the world, that would be great (especially for the poor mods). This is more to make certain there is an equitable distribution of assignment.

[Glen]

I'd like to claim Ohkay Owingeh (better known by its Spanish name, San Juan Pueblo) for my third pick, a Tewa-speaking Pueblo community. It won't be of much importance until the Pueblo Revolt.

At least according to wikipedia, it appears the Pueblo wasn't founded until 1540. Do you have information to the contrary?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohkay_Owingeh_Pueblo

[pa_dutch]

Hm... I overlooked that part... According to this article, though, the community is at least 800 years old:

http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/35039.html

If that's not sufficient enough, I guess I'll claim the Hopi instead... The reason San Juan is so important is because it is the origin of Pope, the leader of the rebellion.

[AJNolte]

How much do you know about the Hanseatic League?




No maximum. If we can cover all the nations of the world, that would be great (especially for the poor mods). This is more to make certain there is an equitable distribution of assignment.

Well I'm not what you'd call an expert. I know that they were in a period of moderate decline after having lost a war with the Dutch, that they had a highly beneficial trade arrangement with Britain, that most Hansa cities were free cities confirmed in this status by the Emperor and that Luebeck, Hamburg and Bremmen were three of the chief ones.
I think there's some interesting potential--particularly in a smaller but more tightly organized confederation of north-German trading cities and their surrounding areas--but I definitely have some other places I can go if the League won't work.
If the whole league is too much to claim, I'd be content to start with Luebeck.

[DrakeRlugia]

You may joke around now, but when the Sicilian flag is flying over the reconquered Marseille, and when Paris is a burning ruin, we will see who is laughing!:D

But in all seriousness. France historically had claims to the thrones of two of my three nations (unless you plan on marring into a Southern Indian Empire). The Italian Wars will be much more interesting if both Milan and Naples are in an alliance.

It was actually Milan who invited France to invade Italy. They wanted an ally against Venice and asked France to invade Italy, using it's Angevin claim to the Neopolitian throne as a pretext. The claim isn't even that solid. It's rather dubious, and comes from Charles VII's grandmother.