The Dixie Project

[Blackbeard]

Now that XX Century hath passed on to another world, one where all shall admire it...coughTimelinescough...It occured to me that AH posters really worked well together in collaboration with XX. So I was thinking, why not another collaborative timeline? This time with an earlier POD...A Confederate victory in the American Civil War. What do you guys think?

[Glen]

Now that XX Century hath passed on to another world, one where all shall admire it...coughTimelinescough...It occured to me that AH posters really worked well together in collaboration with XX. So I was thinking, why not another collaborative timeline? This time with an earlier POD...A Confederate victory in the American Civil War. What do you guys think?

It's a worthwhile project. Doing a really plausible, decent timeline based on a cliche POD could prove nice.

What would be the POD?

[Tom Veil]

*sigh* As much as I hate to admit it, I simply don't have the free time to revive XXth C without lots of help from others. So if the AH.com community wants to move on to a different shared timeline, I understand -- I will follow the crowd.

I'm not sure what help I would be in a "Confederacy Wins" project, though -- the Civil War is neither a subject about which I have much interest or much knowledge. I suppose I could fill in what's happening in the rest of the world. :D

[DuQuense]

?How about if Whe start in 1850?, Then whe can have a different Crimea war also.
And starting in 1850 whe can come up with a plausible POD allowing the CS to win.

I suggest that the proposed Chimigua-Sonora-Baja tier of States, being part of the Gadsden purchase would do it.

[Blackbeard]

A victory at Gettysburg due to a 4th charge by Pickett was the POD I was thinking of, if anyone has a better way to make the Confederacy win I'm open for suggestion. DuQuense, I don't know about the 1850s, I picked the ACW because it was a cliche, and I thought a collaboration of members would breath a lot of life into it, though Glen put this in words better.

[Othniel]

I had an idea for something like the XXth Century, only instead of steaming from the Civl War, or the start of the 20th century it started with the Hundread Days. A Two Hundread Year Post-Napoleonic Timeline.

[Glen]

Lots of interesting ideas out there, but we really should keep it simple I think.

Pick a year, and start rocking.

I suggest that for this project, we actually go year by year, or at least by decade. IE, we don't allow posting of events past a decade until we have a fairly good idea of what's going on throughout the world, then we open up the next decade. People can always backpost so long as those posts don't contradict the previous posts.

[Blackbeard]

Good idea Glen. I'll post the actual page itself in just a little bit, got to help my mom with the front yard.

[Tom Veil]

Lots of interesting ideas out there, but we really should keep it simple I think.

Pick a year, and start rocking.

I suggest that for this project, we actually go year by year, or at least by decade. IE, we don't allow posting of events past a decade until we have a fairly good idea of what's going on throughout the world, then we open up the next decade. People can always backpost so long as those posts don't contradict the previous posts.

I agree with this as well. The only major logistical problem with XXth C was that if you weren't constantly following the TL's development, you would soon become lost. Going in lockstep should solve that problem.

[Glen]

Other ideas include getting a really good world basemap for the starting year, and then keeping it updated with every border change as we make them, rather than trying to piece it together after the fact.

Also might want to make a 'decade summary' based on the major events of a decade before going on to the next one.

[Blackbeard]

Good Ideas both of you, but you think you could help me? I can't attach images, somethings wrong with my posty thing, so I'll need help with the map, and we'll need a stickied TL

[Glen]

Good Ideas both of you, but you think you could help me? I can't attach images, somethings wrong with my posty thing, so I'll need help with the map, and we'll need a stickied TL

We can help, I'm sure.

Let's get some events, then I'll be happy to help with keeping it up where we can find it.

As long as we're adding new posts, it should go smoothly. It's when you stop that things get funny.

[reformer]

Well, I'm probably the person who single handidly destroyed the XXth century, but I'd love to participate in a small fashion. Very small, avoiding destroying the TL.

[Frost Soldier]

I read a book (series, actually) where the Lee's Order 191 before the Battle of Sharpsburg/Antietam were never intercepted.

That might be better than Gettysburg, as Gettysburg I think that Pickett's Charge was so ineffective and that it wouldn't have mattered if another one had worked. Maybe if we chose something like Lee not attacking after he lost the Order 191 at Antietam and circumventing the Union army for a surprise attack on Washington DC, causing the support of England and France to be thrown in and no Emancipation Proclamation.

Or possibly no accidental meeting at Gettysburg and thus Lee's main forces take Harrisburg and thrust around the Union attack, reaching Washington DC with calvary to deceive the men guarding DC to pursue. A few did, eying the camps just beyond the Potomac, and when Lee's main forces came to the capital, Union forces chasing after them, slowly gaining, they were able to easily capture the city.

[Glen]

Well, I'm probably the person who single handidly destroyed the XXth century, but I'd love to participate in a small fashion. Very small, avoiding destroying the TL.

Oh please, you did not. In fact, I think butting heads got us a lot more events!:D

[Count Dearborn]

I read a book (series, actually) where the Lee's Order 191 before the Battle of Sharpsburg/Antietam were never intercepted.

That might be better than Gettysburg, as Gettysburg I think that Pickett's Charge was so ineffective and that it wouldn't have mattered if another one had worked. Maybe if we chose something like Lee not attacking after he lost the Order 191 at Antietam and circumventing the Union army for a surprise attack on Washington DC, causing the support of England and France to be thrown in and no Emancipation Proclamation.

Or possibly no accidental meeting at Gettysburg and thus Lee's main forces take Harrisburg and thrust around the Union attack, reaching Washington DC with calvary to deceive the men guarding DC to pursue. A few did, eying the camps just beyond the Potomac, and when Lee's main forces came to the capital, Union forces chasing after them, slowly gaining, they were able to easily capture the city.

The series started with How Few Remain. A good number of us know it well.

[robertp6165]

How about a POD which hasn't been beaten to death by other authors (as Gettysburg and the "Lost Orders" prior to Antietam both have been, ad nauseum).

I offer for your consideration the Battle of the North Anna River, May 23-24, 1864.

At this battle, General Robert E. Lee had constructed what may have been the most perfect battle plan he ever devised during the war. At the North Anna, Lee was confronted by a problem. The North Anna River was higher on it's northern bank than on it's southern bank along it's whole length, except in one place...at Ox Ford. Therefore, anywhere except at Ox Ford, Union artillery on the northern bank would dominate any Confederate positions on the southern bank.

Lee was able to turn this seemingly insurmountable disadvantage into a positive advantage. Looking at his maps, he observed that about a mile and a half southwest of Ox Ford, the Little River ran on a parallel course with the North Anna. Southeast of Ox Ford, about 2 miles away, were some impassable swamps. Lee had his men construct two defensive lines, running southeast and southwest of Ox Ford, with the ends anchored on these obstacles. In order to attack these defenses, the Union army under Ulysses Grant was forced to divide itself into three parts, each separated from the other by a river. Meanwhile, the nature of the Confederate position would allow Lee to concentrate his own army, providing enough men to man the defenses while also creating a maneuvering mass with which he could launch an attack.

The center of the Union position, opposite Ox Ford, was held by a single Corps under the incompetent Ambrose Burnside. Lee planned to attack across Ox Ford and either destroy or scatter Burnside's isolated Corps. This would have effectively split the Union army in two, and Lee would then have had the luxury of pivoting either left or right to catch and crush one wing of the Army of the Potomac before the other wing could get back across the North Anna to help their comrades.

Lee's plan was never carried out because Lee was struck down by illness (some sort of debilitating fever or dysentery) at the critical moment. Two of his three Corps commanders were also suffering illnesses of their own, and nobody took the initiative to start the attack. By the time Lee had recovered enough to reassert control over the army, General Grant had realized the trap he had fallen into, and had his troops dig in rather than continue his own attack.

If the Confederate commanders had remained healthy, and the attack had been made, at least 2/3 of the Army of the Potomac would have been, at the very minimum, severely battered, and quite likely destroyed or so badly routed that they would have been ineffective for some time. If Lee had vigorously pursued the remnants of the Army of the Potomac, he might indeed have destroyed all of it. But even if part of the enemy army escaped, Lee would then have enjoyed a numerical superiority in Virginia and could have moved to threaten Washington.
This in turn could have had all sorts of interesting effects.

1) Grant's command over the army...assuming he is not himself killed at the North Anna...might very well not survive such a disaster. George Meade is probably back in command. This means the Union Army is probably not nearly as aggressive as it would have been under Grant from this point on, and this will slow the progress of the campaign in Virginia.

2) Sherman's Army, or a large part of it, would likely have been recalled from Georgia and shipped to Virginia to face Lee. Thus Atlanta does not fall on schedule.

3) The process to ship troops from Georgia to Virginia would have itself been time consuming, and it is unlikely that they could have made themselves felt in Virginia for at least a couple of months. This further slows down the progress of the Union army in Virginia.

Take all these things together, and Lincoln probably doesn't win in November. A Peace Democrat Congress is swept into power on McClellan's coat-tails, which forces an end to the war. The South is granted it's independence, by treaty, in early 1865.

[Glen]

How about a POD which hasn't been beaten to death by other authors (as Gettysburg and the "Lost Orders" prior to Antietam both have been, ad nauseum).

I offer for your consideration the Battle of the North Anna River, May 23-24, 1864.

At this battle, General Robert E. Lee had constructed what may have been the most perfect battle plan he ever devised during the war. At the North Anna, Lee was confronted by a problem. The North Anna River was higher on it's northern bank than on it's southern bank along it's whole length, except in one place...at Ox Ford. Therefore, anywhere except at Ox Ford, Union artillery on the northern bank would dominate any Confederate positions on the southern bank.

Lee was able to turn this seemingly insurmountable disadvantage into a positive advantage. Looking at his maps, he observed that about a mile and a half southwest of Ox Ford, the Little River ran on a parallel course with the North Anna. Southeast of Ox Ford, about 2 miles away, were some impassable swamps. Lee had his men construct two defensive lines, running southeast and southwest of Ox Ford, with the ends anchored on these obstacles. In order to attack these defenses, the Union army under Ulysses Grant was forced to divide itself into three parts, each separated from the other by a river. Meanwhile, the nature of the Confederate position would allow Lee to concentrate his own army, providing enough men to man the defenses while also creating a maneuvering mass with which he could launch an attack.

The center of the Union position, opposite Ox Ford, was held by a single Corps under the incompetent Ambrose Burnside. Lee planned to attack across Ox Ford and either destroy or scatter Burnside's isolated Corps. This would have effectively split the Union army in two, and Lee would then have had the luxury of pivoting either left or right to catch and crush one wing of the Army of the Potomac before the other wing could get back across the North Anna to help their comrades.

Lee's plan was never carried out because Lee was struck down by illness (some sort of debilitating fever or dysentery) at the critical moment. Two of his three Corps commanders were also suffering illnesses of their own, and nobody took the initiative to start the attack. By the time Lee had recovered enough to reassert control over the army, General Grant had realized the trap he had fallen into, and had his troops dig in rather than continue his own attack.

If the Confederate commanders had remained healthy, and the attack had been made, at least 2/3 of the Army of the Potomac would have been, at the very minimum, severely battered, and quite likely destroyed or so badly routed that they would have been ineffective for some time. If Lee had vigorously pursued the remnants of the Army of the Potomac, he might indeed have destroyed all of it. But even if part of the enemy army escaped, Lee would then have enjoyed a numerical superiority in Virginia and could have moved to threaten Washington.
This in turn could have had all sorts of interesting effects.

1) Grant's command over the army...assuming he is not himself killed at the North Anna...might very well not survive such a disaster. George Meade is probably back in command. This means the Union Army is probably not nearly as aggressive as it would have been under Grant from this point on, and this will slow the progress of the campaign in Virginia.

2) Sherman's Army, or a large part of it, would likely have been recalled from Georgia and shipped to Virginia to face Lee. Thus Atlanta does not fall on schedule.

3) The process to ship troops from Georgia to Virginia would have itself been time consuming, and it is unlikely that they could have made themselves felt in Virginia for at least a couple of months. This further slows down the progress of the Union army in Virginia.

Take all these things together, and Lincoln probably doesn't win in November. A Peace Democrat Congress is swept into power on McClellan's coat-tails, which forces an end to the war. The South is granted it's independence, by treaty, in early 1865.

Interesting thoughts. A lot of weight being put on the one POD, but its not impossible. My biggest problem is that this late in the war, I believe the Confederacy is getting exhausted. Then again, if its enough of a morale sinker in an election year....especially if such a victory convinced some European Powers to recognize the Confederacy....maybe France and Austria, who wish to have a weaker US to help foster the new Empire of Mexico?

[robertp6165]

Interesting thoughts. A lot of weight being put on the one POD, but its not impossible. My biggest problem is that this late in the war, I believe the Confederacy is getting exhausted. Then again, if its enough of a morale sinker in an election year....especially if such a victory convinced some European Powers to recognize the Confederacy....maybe France and Austria, who wish to have a weaker US to help foster the new Empire of Mexico?

It is true that by 1864 the Confederacy was getting exhausted, but it was not quite there, yet. The key factor is Northern morale. Lincoln himself was convinced that, had it not been for the fall of Atlanta just prior to the election, he would have lost the election. Prevent the fall of Atlanta, and couple it with a major disaster in Virginia, then that result is almost certain.

European recognition at this point would be nice, but not necessary if the conditions for a Confederate political victory (i.e. the victory of the Peace Democrats in the U.S. November elections) are met.

If the problem of a single POD bothers you, then add a second one...the Battle of Cassville (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=35605). Now you have major defeats in both Virginia and Georgia, and you have Sherman's army being battered at the very time parts of it will be needed to redeem the situation in Virginia.

[reformer]

Later PODs lend considerable problems. After all Lincoln remains president for quite awhile, and the war would have to keep on at least till mid-terms, at which point the south will have simply put imploded.

I gotta admitt that I would love a POD with a McClellan presidency, he would be such a curious figure in American politics. Unlike dear mister Turtledove, I believe that the Democrats would probably end up towardes the right with folks that resemble Cleavland, the Republicans will turn more or less radical, and that a popular Populist type movement will rise as an alternative opposition first in the west, later in the east, and possibly also in the south, maybe even leading towardes a radical religious left wing Populist re-unification. Southern plantation owners and big bussiness and some big labor will make very interesting bedfellows at the turn of the century.

[I, Guangxu]

Well, since my internet went down part way through this, and I cannot figure out how to paste text into this field, you will have to bear with me and read my scenario for a POD and its aftermath in the attached text file. My appologies for the hassle, its something of a read.

[Tom Veil]

I myself will throw in a thought or two regarding POD's and interesting possible outcomes.
Although it would seem that the Gettysburg POD has been done to death, I would perhaps suggest a different facet to explore than is typical. My postulation would one of the popular category in which a chance mis-step has far-reaching consequences.
In the scenario I envision, Robert E. Lee and his command entourage have failed to secure an adequately knowledgable guide in their navigation of the rural Pennsylvania roads, and as such, have erred and taken an incorrect fork on their way to the rondevouz point for Confederate forces near Cashtown or Gettysburg, which ever proved more practical. Lee and his entourage proceed down this path for some time, only becoming aware that they may have (embarassingly) become lost after some time has passed. Just as the consensus that they are indeed lost has been agreed upon, the entourage happens upon a small band of militia walking out of the dusk. Really little more than a gaggle of local farmers responding to Governor Curtin's call to mobilize, there is a moment of tense confusion as as the two sides meet, both unsure quite how to respond to this unforseen happenstance. It is unknown which side fires the first shot, but the dusky road is briefly filled with an exchange of paniced gunfire. When the chaos settles, it is confirmed in the settling dark that all of the militiamen have been killed, but at a terrible cost. The militiamens' panic combined with the haze of dusk, caused most of their shots to either miss or merely graze their intended targets, and the Confederates have sustained only one casualty.
General Lee has been slain by the only bullet to find its mark.
Command of the Army falls to James Longstreet, who commits himself to Lee's (now a Confederate Martyr) plan of ending the war through his invasion of the North (a plan Longstreet had originally disagreed with). However, with Longstreet now in direct command of the whole of the Army, he is free to pursue his own, more logistically conservative and tactically radical strategies without needing to convince the more traditional and brash Lee. When A. P. Hill's forces draw both armies into premature confrontation at Gettysburg, Longstreet at first chooses to do what he believes Lee would have done and authorizes the all-out attack of the first day. After the day of fighting is over, Hill is thoroughly chastised by Longstreet for violating not only his own orders, but the spirit of Lee's orders. Seeing the strength of the Union defensive positions, Longstreet decides that his predacessor's more bold strategy would be ill-advised given the likely outcome of assaulting those positions. Rather, in a surprising move for both sides, Longstreet withdraws the Confederate forces in the night, manuvering to their flank and positioning themselves squarely between the Union Army and naught but a long empty road to Washington. Once there, Longstreet orders his Confederates to construct defensive positions, implementing many of Longstreet's then-revolutionary tactical theories by digging trenches and spacing their firing lines for a more efficient use of fire with artillery being used to provide cover. There, Longstreet need only wait until the news reaches Washington that the Confederate Army stands in a position to march unopposed into the Capitol. As expected, the Union Army is forced to action by a frantic Washington, but Meade remains cautious, wary of the Confederate positions. In the time that this communication between Meade and Washington takes, Longstreet's Army has had a chance to lick its wounds and secure its entrenchments, with the belated bravado of JEB Stewart, after a dressing down for the (alternate) history books by Longstreet for his failure to report the Union Army's positions before they were drawn into conflict, being put to good use securing the tenuous but vital supply lines to the Confederate position.
Longstreet convinces his restless men (who are by this point referring to the trenches they have dug as "Longstreet's Latrines") of the virtue of his strategy by appealing to them to fight in memory of Lee and Jackson, an invocation of the now truly legendary martyrs that is sucessful in rallying Longstreet's somewhat disparate troops.
Surely enough, Meade is informed by Washington that the situation, and his orders, are unequivocal, he is to mobilize the amassed Union forces for a concerted attack on the Confederate position. Meade dispatches as many Cavalry units as he can spare in an attempt to outmanuever the Confederate supply lines, but he knows that it will avail him little, if anything, without being able to cut off the Confederates with the mass of his Army. However, his orders are clear, the time for manuevering is over, he is to launch an amassed attack on the Confederate position with the intent of destroying or routing it utterly as soon as possible, not practicable, possible. So he marches the Army from its staging point at Gettysburg and makes to assault the Confederate trench complex.
"The Bloody Trenches", as the subsequent battles would come to be called, would be feirce, brutal, and ultimately a disaster for Meade. Direct assaults on the trench-works resulted in heavily disproportionate Union casualties, a fact that did not stop Meade, who's orders were explicit, from attempting just that again and again. Ultimately, Union forces were sucessful at forcing the Confederates from their forward trenches, but the Confederates would simply fall back to the next trench line and continue fighting. The combination of trench tactics, more efficient firing lines, and creative artillery coverage proved to be a veritable Opera of carnage, of which Longstreet was the stoic composer and maestro.
After the intial days of fighting, the Union Army lay battered and lacerated in the face of the superior Confederate positions. Morale was exceedingly low, a fact only exacerbated when news broke that a column of fresh supplies escorted by JEB Stewart's bucaneer cavalry had made a daring break through their attempted blockade, and were presently resupplying the embattled but seemingly monolithic Confederate positions. Nevertheless, neither Meade nor Washington was willing except humiliation and defeat. "You Will Break Them, General." read Washington's telegraphed response to Meade's report of the disaster, and the words on Meade's lips the following morning were a mantra of "They will break... They must break...". Meade himself would lead the rallied remains of the Army of the Potomac in a final concerted charge against the enfortressed Army of Northern Virginia. "Meade's Charge", would be both bold and inspiring, moving many of the Confederate soldiers with their stubborn bravery as they charged futilely at the vastly advantaged Confederates. Nevertheless, the charge was broken like a wave against the rock of the Confederate defenses, with Meade personally rallying the troops immediately around him and breaching the main line of trenches before being forced to retreat in the pitched melee that ensued. Finally, in the climactic crescendo of Longstreet's Opera, a Confederate counter-attack was ordered on the coat-tails of the Union retreat, a finishing stroke for the flagging and broken remnants of the Union Army.
With the Army of the Potomac shattered and the Confederate Army standing now to march truly unopposed to Washington, Longstreet sent a courier to the Union Capitol to deliver the missive penned by the late, great Lee, outlining the terms of an end to the war.
And there you have it... Apologies that there isn't more detail. It's 4 am here and I need some sleep.

For people who can't open attachments, here's Guangxu's post.

[reformer]

The POD isn't actually that important. What does matter is how we want the rest of the time line to look like, once we figure that out (that will of course be the brunt of the time line) we can figure out a POD that suites the scinario.

[Glen]

The POD isn't actually that important. What does matter is how we want the rest of the time line to look like, once we figure that out (that will of course be the brunt of the time line) we can figure out a POD that suites the scinario.

I respectfully disagree. When and how the fortunes of the South change will have ramifications that will reverberate through the rest of the 19th century for both North and South.

Also, a good, solid, realistic resolution that keeps the CSA in existence gives the rest of the timeline an anchor.

[reformer]

If this project is going to take off the ground, action should be taken. A quick 1 day poll to determine the POD (wasn't it so much easier with XXth century. . . when there was a gradual POD, and everything was open for grabs if it made sense. . . ah Elihu Root, my first president. . .), a draft thread, etc etc. This has been sitting here not going anywhere. Now that things are restarting, now is the time.

We should also set up a thread in pre 1900 advertising.

[Glen]

If this project is going to take off the ground, action should be taken. A quick 1 day poll to determine the POD (wasn't it so much easier with XXth century. . . when there was a gradual POD, and everything was open for grabs if it made sense. . . ah Elihu Root, my first president. . .), a draft thread, etc etc. This has been sitting here not going anywhere. Now that things are restarting, now is the time.

We should also set up a thread in pre 1900 advertising.

Check with Blackbeard. This is his baby.

[I, Guangxu]

For people who can't open attachments, here's Guangxu's post.
Sorry, though I had done this earlier.

Thank you very much, Tom.

[Whatif?]

May I suggest a POD where Maryland seceded?

[I, Guangxu]

Unfortunately, this project has been dead and buried for just about 18 months now, so I'm afraid your belated suggestion will likely fall on deaf ears...

Unless this sudden activity in the thread somehow manages to work a feat of spectacular thread-necromancy...

[Whatif?]

I know that this thread is dead but I just wanted to suggest it anyway and maybe it will come back to life.

[Blackbeard]

Possibly...just maybe...we could bring this back
There aren't many posts to review

[DuQuense]

Why not just go with a POD of

Washington Sun Novembre 10th 1864

.................................................. ........McClellan Wins
Primary results indicate that McClellan has received the Electoral votes to become the next President, Effects on the War are still uncertain...........................


Whe don't really have to explain why the Democrats win. Whe just start the time line on 20th of March 1865, with McClellan's Inauguration.
Whe assume everything is OTL except for Mclellan up to March 20

[robertp6165]

Why not just go with a POD of

Washington Sun Novembre 10th 1864

.................................................. ........McClellan Wins
Primary results indicate that McClellan has received the Electoral votes to become the next President, Effects on the War are still uncertain...........................


Whe don't really have to explain why the Democrats win. Whe just start the time line on 20th of March 1865, with McClellan's Inauguration.
Whe assume everything is OTL except for Mclellan up to March 20

Well, since McClellan lost in OTL, you kind of do have to explain why he suddenly wins in the ATL. Him winning by itself can't be a POD, since you require another POD for that to happen.

I still nominate the twin disasters at the North Anna and Cassville as a POD. Neither of them, and certainly not both together, have been beaten to death as a POD like anything to do with Gettysburg or Special Order 191 has been.

[Whatif?]

I still say Maryland succession is a good idea.

[robertp6165]

I still say Maryland succession is a good idea.

Maryland seceding, alone and by itself, was unlikely to lead to Confederate victory. Indeed, it would have complicated the Confederacy's job of defending itself since Maryland, unlike Virginia, has no natural borders.

Care to explain why you think this would have been a good POD?