English language challenge

[tom]

You know only that the TL has an English language like OTL (maybe "accent" or a few different words), but is only spoken in sothern England.
What is the latest POD that reasonably gives this?

[Straha]

you ofrgot to put and from the mar atalnticus to the mar pacaficus new andalus rules the continents of vespuccia.

[Otis Tarda]

Most obvious solution is:
Stronger Scotts (that took Northern England);
AND
Lost battle of domination over world: either with France or Spain, that blocked spreading of English all over the world.


I wouldn't like to live in such ATL.

[tom]

SurfNTurfStraha:
By English language, I meant something closer than that! :D

[basileus]

Right, that's AH English, I would call it the Typish language... :rolleyes: :D
What I don't understand is why a not Anglo-Saxon dominated wourld should be necessarily worse than ours.
The French have not "invented" democracy like the Englishmen, but they have given solid proof to know it and to know when and how it must be enforced (in THEIR OWN homeland, not only the others'!)
As to Spain, well... brrr! But in recent years it underwent a real miracle. I bet no one, when I was born (1974), expected such modernization, denocracy and success from Spain.

[tom]

Maybe just because he is used to an Anglo dominant world.
Someone from the "puny English ATL" might find OTL dystopian!

[NapoleonXIV]

I don't think this is a possible TL if your are going to have English existing at all in the small area. This isn't due to history but the nature of English.

Most linguists admit that English has a major advantage over the rest of the world's languages. (All of the world's 'great' languages have such advantages, but in English those advantages contribute to its spread more than most others. )

English borrows words with a greater facility than almost any other language. This gives it a greater vocabulary (500,000+ words vs 300,000+ in its closest competitor) and thus a much wider range of expression with words alone. (It also leads to its greatest disadvantage, pronounciation and spelling, these are both very difficult in English as it very often does not follow its own rules). In addition, it was from the beginning a 'developed' language with its characteristic simple structure. These two facilities make it not only easier to learn but also a natural for the 'pidgin' process. Examine the world over and you will find wherever languages naturally mix to form others, pidgins, that English becomes the base and structure if it is one of the components.

If you place your POD after Britain had developed even a few colonies then the genie is out of the bottle. English may spread less but it will still spread widely. If you place it before that then whatever form of English was here already simply gobbles the new language into itself and then is spread by the conquerors. You may end up with a world where English is less widely spoken or sounds rather different but I do not believe you can end up with a world where some form of English that we would recognize is not spoken on a global scale.

[tom]

Nappy:
Good point!

[basileus]

In fact of word borowibg, there's a language that beats even English: Japanese.
Its 700,000 words vocabulary is mainly of medieval Chinese stock - but an impressive quantity of gaijin vocabulary is accepted still today.

[tom]

Maybe the puny English TL can be one where Japanese is the dominant world language!

[NapoleonXIV]

In fact of word borowibg, there's a language that beats even English: Japanese.
Its 700,000 words vocabulary is mainly of medieval Chinese stock - but an impressive quantity of gaijin vocabulary is accepted still today.

I did not realize Japanese beat English as to vocabulary, but doesn't Japanese have the rather cumbersome kanji syllabary instead of an alphabet. And I'm not arguing that English is or will ever be the 'dominant' world language, (there may never be one of them) just that it will always be widely spoken.

One thing I'd like to know, can Japanese employ rhyme? I sometimes listen to Japanese songs and can't hear any but it could be I just don't know where to listen for it since I don't know where the words are.

[basileus]

I did not realize Japanese beat English as to vocabulary, but doesn't Japanese have the rather cumbersome kanji syllabary instead of an alphabet. And I'm not arguing that English is or will ever be the 'dominant' world language, (there may never be one of them) just that it will always be widely spoken.

One thing I'd like to know, can Japanese employ rhyme? I sometimes listen to Japanese songs and can't hear any but it could be I just don't know where to listen for it since I don't know where the words are.

I'm not such an expert at Japanese, but I think rhymes are completely out of their culture. One major problem is their neutre pronunciation (almost no tonic accent), which, by depriving a phrase of a modulable rhythm, doesn't favorite rhymes.
Rhymes in Japanese... I've never thought this.
It's like wondering what's the best Arabian whiskey :D

[Guilherme Loureiro]

As far as I remember, Japanese, like it has been said before, doesn't put much regard in rhyming. Great language for puns, though.

[robertp6165]

You know only that the TL has an English language like OTL (maybe "accent" or a few different words), but is only spoken in sothern England.
What is the latest POD that reasonably gives this?

Actually, the history I am developing in my King Arthur timeline is strongly pointing in that direction. In my timeline, the native Britons are able to contain and roll back the Anglo-Saxon invasion, with the result that by 700 A.D. the Anglo-Saxons are confined to East Anglia, Essex, Sussex and Kent, as well as a rump state of Deira north of the Humber. The POD for this would be c. 500 A.D. To view the timeline, the link is...

http://www.geocities.com/robertp6165/arthuriantimeline.html

[basileus]

Actually, the history I am developing in my King Arthur timeline is strongly pointing in that direction. In my timeline, the native Britons are able to contain and roll back the Anglo-Saxon invasion, with the result that by 700 A.D. the Anglo-Saxons are confined to East Anglia, Essex, Sussex and Kent, as well as a rump state of Deira north of the Humber. The POD for this would be c. 500 A.D. To view the timeline, the link is...

http://www.geocities.com/robertp6165/arthuriantimeline.html

Excellent! I loved it.
(I have a sympathy for Celts)

[Pikers3]

For the english language to evolve as it has it would need to be invaded by the normans and vikings. therefore i think that you would have to hav an anglo saxon england that was overrun by the vikings and only managed to keep wessex. Then it would hav to b taken by the normans and the rest of england would be in the Danelaw

[Taikun]

I did not realize Japanese beat English as to vocabulary, but doesn't Japanese have the rather cumbersome kanji syllabary instead of an alphabet. And I'm not arguing that English is or will ever be the 'dominant' world language, (there may never be one of them) just that it will always be widely spoken.

but writing like that would be much cooler ;)

[rcduggan]

This was the fifty-ninth thread made on the new boards. Holy thread necromancy!

[bard32]

There was a time after the American Revolution, that Congress was debating
whether or not to break completely with Britain. The break would have included making German, and not English, the language of this country.

[Keenir]

One thing I'd like to know, can Japanese employ rhyme? I sometimes listen to Japanese songs and can't hear any but it could be I just don't know where to listen for it since I don't know where the words are.

why would it have to rhyme?

after all -http://www.zompist.com/kitgram.html#poetry lots of other ways to make poetry and songs.

[Keenir]

There was a time after the American Revolution, that Congress was debating
whether or not to break completely with Britain. The break would have included making German, and not English, the language of this country.

nien. sadly, efendim, that is a myth urban.

[black angel]

English only in southern England? mmmmm.
ok take Britannia Ruled,
the Occupation makes England much more nationalistic in the short run so Anne not James becomes Queen of England, England is poorer because of the occupation and puritans are died or living in Scotland so no colonies.
thanks to the occupation of England and Holland by Spain Scotland became the hub of calvinism. because of that and the Stewarts messing up, Scotland becomes a Commonwealth like Cromwell's,
the Church of England become very "high church" after the occupation and many people (Especially in the North of England) feel that it may as well be Catholic.
so in 1680's Scotland invades northern England and takes over, southern England (with French help) holds out.
Scotland being nationalistic speaks Scottish Gaelic, northern England speaks a Gaelic English mix known as Northumbrian.
southern England speaks mostly what we'd know as English, with more French & Gaelic loan words

[fernerdave]

There was a time after the American Revolution, that Congress was debating

whether or not to break completely with Britain. The break would have included making German, and not English, the language of this country.


huh? well at least the debate worked and they realized it would never work,
and i wonder if the fact that britain and japan are islands have anything to do with the languages' borrowing proclivity

[Codae]

[left]


huh? well at least the debate worked and they realized it would never work,
and i wonder if the fact that britain and japan are islands have anything to do with the languages' borrowing proclivity

It was actually a vote over whether to release certain government documents in Germans as well as English.

[SRT]

It was actually a vote over whether to release certain government documents in Germans as well as English.

Which makes sense, considering the high population of German immigrants.

Although... Didn't most of them come over in the 19th Century, well after the Revolutionary War?

[cerebus]

There was a time after the American Revolution, that Congress was debating
whether or not to break completely with Britain. The break would have included making German, and not English, the language of this country.


This is a myth.

Ok a widely believed myth but still utterly without foundation.:D