AH African post Decolonization Challange

[DuQuense]

Challange
With a POD no earlier than the 1930's, Have a Post Decolonization African State [Not South Africa] as a Major [France/Germany/Japan Level] Expansionary minded Power.

[Melvin Loh]

How about Nigeria puttin an place an earlier ECOWAS-style setup & a proto-ECOMOG, in order to enable its earlier exapnsion into west Africa than occurred re Liberia & Sierra Leone during the 1990s ?

[Wendell]

How about doing something with Rhodesia?

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Well, it's impossible to do on a Japan level, but the only possible solution is Egypt, which gets the Sudan with independence and begins expanding. The hard-pressed Emir of Mecca is forced to turn to Egypt for aid against the Saudis - Egyptian forces occupy Riyadh soon afterward, and move down into Asir and Yemen.

When Germany attacks France, Egypt takes advantage by mobing into French Equitorial Africa and quickly overruns today's Chad and C.A.R. As the conflict widens, Egypt invades Palestine and Syria.

[Kidblast]

Ethiopia????

Perhaps Haile Selassie does not live as long, and his oldest son became king. As time went on, Haile Selassie became senile, and this contributed to his overthrow. Perhaps if his son, Amha Selassie had become king around 1965? then he would have been able to respond to the pressures of Ethiopia at that time.

[Wendell]

Ethiopia????

Perhaps Haile Selassie does not live as long, and his oldest son became king. As time went on, Haile Selassie became senile, and this contributed to his overthrow. Perhaps if his son, Amha Selassie had become king around 1965? then he would have been able to respond to the pressures of Ethiopia at that time.

A 1930's POD. Maybe things go differently with the Italian ambitions in East Africa?

[Empror Mike]

A 1930's POD. Maybe things go differently with the Italian ambitions in East Africa?

I'm currently working on a timeline in which Ethiopia becomes a world power. Say, a Japan-styled Ethiopia rather then a Siam-styled Ethiopia. However, my POD is in the 19th century.

The best chance would be DeGulle moving to French northafrica and declaring it a seperate nation (like the Portugese dude did in Brazil after Napoleon conquered Portugal).
DeGulle recruits men of the local population to fight the Italians. They recieve plenty of British assistance and conquer Libya and Italian East Africa.
DeGulle is eventually overthrown by his North-African officers, thus ensuring that French North Africa remains an independant state.
NAF (North African Federation) has plenty of natural resources, and a well established military force. Additionaly, they already have colonial control over Libya, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Djibouti, Somalia, and maybe Syria and Lebanon.


- In 1948, they join the Arab forces and crush the Zionist state of Israel.
- In 1951, the Egyptians nationalize the Suez Canal (rather then 1956 because they dont have to worry 'bout Israel). NAF joins Egypt and pushes back the British and French forces. The British threaten to use nuclear weapons less NAF withdraws.
- Following this, in 1956 white-Algerian spies steal nuclear development research from France. NAF detonate their first nuclear device in 1958.

In any case, the strong independant-like notions installed by DeGulle and imperial-national feelings of the populace have NAF form a third idealogical bloc apart from the US and Soviet Union.
NAF helps various African colonies brake free of their European masters, and eventually has most of North and West Africa aswell as the middle-east on their side. They grant full independance to all of their own colonies in the 1960s.
And they lived happily ever after.
The end.

[Marius]

What about that old favourite - Von Lettow-Vorbeck holds out against the Allies in World War I and establishes an independent Tanganyika with heavy German influence. Maybe get crap loads of German immigration to the new colony as people try to escape the shithole that Germany has become.

[Empror Mike]

He was too loyal a German to establish an independant nation.

[Marius]

I remember reading a thriller set in Zimbabwe a few years back. In it there is a plot by the Zimbabwean government to invade and annex Mozambique, thus giving the Zimbos access to the sea. Maybe Mugabe goes more mad, more quickly? He invades, or creates a union with Mozambqiue and other like minded states (Zambia, Tanzania possibly) and starts bullying the smaller nations who don't go in for his particular brand of African nationalism (Botswana, Malawi, maybe Kenya)

[DuQuense]

I goofed --In order to get a Post WW2 leader capable of leading some African nation into a Asian Dragon Economy, while maintaining large expansive Military, He almost has to be a Soldier in WW2, which puts the POD back to ~1910~1920.

So ?can whe get a Alt Great Man? and ?Can an African Country pull off the investment needed to be a African Tiger?

[Max Sinister]

About Lettow-Vorbeck: After Germany capitulated his situation was hopeless. As long as East Africa was the least important theater of the war, he could survive and fight on, but later the Brits could've crushed him.

That's the problem with Africa: The Bantu group frex is splintered into 400+ ethnic groups. We could need an artificial language (an "Ur-Bantu", as you might call it), an Esperanto for Africans, to glue them together somehow.

[Marius]

About Lettow-Vorbeck: After Germany capitulated his situation was hopeless. As long as East Africa was the least important theater of the war, he could survive and fight on, but later the Brits could've crushed him.

That's the problem with Africa: The Bantu group frex is splintered into 400+ ethnic groups. We could need an artificial language (an "Ur-Bantu", as you might call it), an Esperanto for Africans, to glue them together somehow.

Swahili is very close to being an Esperanto for East Africa.

[Hendryk]

David bar Elias has a Zionist Uganda (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=38786) TL that has a POD in 1905.

And I once speculated about a multiethnic Zanzibar (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=17456) becoming a respectable regional economic power, which could have been achieved by preempting the 1964 revolution and a little tweaking here and there.

[Empror Mike]

What's wrong with my idea?

[Max Sinister]

It is an African great power, but it's Arab, not black African (I think this was implied).

[ninebucks]

What's wrong with my idea?

Seeing as you asked:

1) You are showing an obvious bias by throwing in an Israeli state just to have it be brutally crushed. Especially considering that the Israel's own existance in OTL is incredibly unlikely and would almost certainly be butterflied away by most C19th PODs.

2) Why would France allow a colony to develop nuclear weaponry. Regardless of how much autonomy the polity may have to allow it to research weapons of mass destruction while still under France's sovereignty is absolutely retarded.

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

A working DRC would be an idea.

Or maybe one of those federations the French (West and Equatorial Africa*, the Sahel-Benin Union, the Mali Federation) and British (Rhodesia-Nyasaland) set up. Or maybe it's something the Africans themselves come up with; OTL examples (either failed or never implemented) include the Ghana-Guinea Union, the Union of African States (Ghana, Guinea, and Mali), Senegambia, and the United States of Latin Africa (Equatorial Africa, the Belgian colonies, Angola, Cameroon, and Equatorial Guinea). Of these West Africa, Equatorial Africa, Rhodesia-Nyasaland, and Latin Africa would have major power possibilities in their starting form, and the idea of African unity could fuel their expansionary drive.

Here's an idea: The United States of Latin Africa are formed by some miracle and go to war with Nigeria over claims to the British Cameroons. Nigeria loses the contested areas and becomes a USLA puppet. Sao Tome-Principe votes to become part of Latin Africa. Then they provide aid to black separatists in South West Africa, Darfur and southern Sudan, which eventually leads to war with these nations. The wars are won, and pro-USLA regimes are installed in the newly independent nations of Namibia, Darfur and Equatoria (?). They spend the Cold War following a non-aligned foreign policy, and not in the Cuban sense; this is a nation that was based on the USA but went to war with the American-friendly apartheid regime. France and China were the Security Council members it got along with best. It recognized both the PRC and Israel from the beginning.

By the present day Latin Africa is a democratic and somewhat prosperous (let's consider the rest of the continent) nation with its capital at Brazzaville, Bangui** or some other place. On the African continent, it has friendly relations with Egypt, South Africa***, Algeria, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Libya, Ethiopia, Mozambique, Equatoria, Zambia, Namibia, Darfur, and Botswana. French, Portuguese and Spanish are the official languages, the last because of its use in Equatorial Guinea.

Anyone who wants to borrow and/or develop that idea is welcome, provided you acknowledge me as a source and find a way to set up the USLA to begin with.

*To my knowledge they failed to set these 2 up (except as colonies joined for easier governance), but they certainly considered it.
**Capital of Ubangi-Shari, which became the Central African Republic in OTL. The man who came up with the USLA idea, Barthelemy Boganda, was from Ubangi-Shari.
***People there still remember USLA help in ending apartheid, however a rivalry between the 2 is developing, analogous to the Sino-Soviet split.

[Empror Mike]

It is an African great power, but it's Arab, not black African (I think this was implied).

Mali and more southern colonies are also included, though I suspect the Arabs dominate this nation.

Seeing as you asked:

1) You are showing an obvious bias by throwing in an Israeli state just to have it be brutally crushed. Especially considering that the Israel's own existance in OTL is incredibly unlikely and would almost certainly be butterflied away by most C19th PODs.

2) Why would France allow a colony to develop nuclear weaponry. Regardless of how much autonomy the polity may have to allow it to research weapons of mass destruction while still under France's sovereignty is absolutely retarded.


I didn't get point number 1.


I told you already, French North Africa ain't a colony no more. DeGulle made it an independant nation, and the locals overthrew him.

[MerryPrankster]

He was too loyal a German to establish an independant nation.

Even if Germany is falling apart and the only alternative to going renegade is handing the colony over to Britain?

[Hapsburg]

Maybe if the Congo Crisis had been resolved earlier, or if the Congo is given independence at a slower pace, in order to gradually give it a democratic government. The natural resources, like ores and diamonds, could make the DRC an incredibly rich and powerful nation in Africa if properly and peacefully exploited. If a deal is made with the French to merge French Congo with the Belgian Congo prior to independence, and merge Leopoldville and Brazzville into one city, even better.

[ninebucks]

By the present day Latin Africa is a democratic and somewhat prosperous (let's consider the rest of the continent) nation with its capital at Brazzaville, Bangui** or some other place. On the African continent, it has friendly relations with Egypt, South Africa***, Algeria, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Libya, Ethiopia, Mozambique, Equatoria, Zambia, Namibia, Darfur, and Botswana. French, Portuguese and Spanish are the official languages, the last because of its use in Equatorial Guinea.

Bangui lies on the opposite side of the Ubangi River from Zongo, IOTL a reasonably sized Congolese provincial capital. And so if any amount of capital at all were to be invested in Bangui, then at least one bridge would almost certainly be built across the Ubangi. So any reasonably successful Bangui would inevitably become the twin city of Bangui-Zongo.

I mention this because in my FTL Bangui-Zongo ends up becoming united Earth's capital city.

[tantric]

prereq: malaria vaccine that works. it's not just global politics that keeps africa down, it's africa itself. any of these states would have to start with a DEAD SERIOUS indigenous tropical medical program, then get support from other tropical nations because of it.

[Wendell]

By the present day Latin Africa is a democratic and somewhat prosperous (let's consider the rest of the continent) nation with its capital at Brazzaville, Bangui** or some other place. On the African continent, it has friendly relations with Egypt, South Africa***, Algeria, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Libya, Ethiopia, Mozambique, Equatoria, Zambia, Namibia, Darfur, and Botswana. French, Portuguese and Spanish are the official languages, the last because of its use in Equatorial Guinea.
No need to include Spanish, really. French is official in Eq. Guinea IOTL with Spanish as it is.

Anyone who wants to borrow and/or develop that idea is welcome, provided you acknowledge me as a source and find a way to set up the USLA to begin with.

A while ago, I was contemplating a similar idea that I called the Federation of Equatorial Africa. Mine, however, did not include contignuous Angola.

That said, for an ATL I'm developing with a far earlier POD, I have a postcolonial Mali that includes Mali, Guinea-Bissau, Guinea, and Senegal that serves as a regional power in West Africa.

[Condottiero]

What about Greater Morocco? Let’s suppose Hassan II gets more military help from France and support for the annexation of the Spanish Sahara, Mauritania, Senegal Mali and half of Algeria…