Texian Military

[ConfederateFly]

How would a Texian Military look from 1835-2004(wars, equipment, naval ships)?

[Straha]

how big is texas? Does it control the areas that IOTL went to the USA+the northern tier of mexican states and Baja??

[PM Nixon]

Hmmm....I'd assume that the military would be a volunteer force initially, probably worried about the Mexicans. Their navy would be committed to protecting trade in the Gylf of Mexico. I think that as time goes on, Texas may try to become a Caribbean and Latin American power, maybe creating a very good Marine Corps. But in the 19th century, Texas's military will be small, but they'll probably become an American power in their own right. In this timeline, it would be interesting to see if there is a Civil War as IOTL, or if it's avoided.

[Beck Reilly]

I think that the Republic of Texas, if it did not join the United States, is likely, in 2004, to include OTL Texas, eastern New Mexico (E of Rio Grande), southeast Colorado (E of Rio Grande and S of Arkansas River), southern Oklahoma (incl. lands south of the Canadian [at maximum] and the panhandle).

It would have a population of say 25 - 30 million.

The military would be along the lines of OTL Poland, Canada, Australia, Spain, or the Netherlands. Maybe a small aircraft carrier (certainly not nuclear), 4 - 5 small submarines (like the Russian Kilo class), a sizable force of destroyers and frigates, a small Air Force with maybe 100 - 200 aircraft, a regular army with maybe 3 Infantry divisions, 1 - 2 armored brigades, 1 - 2 mech. infantry brigades, and a sizable force of reservists. A maximum military size for the RoT would be along the lines of Taiwan.

P.S. I know it's popular but George Bush could NOT be the President. He was born in CT.

[Straha]

who says that in the early 20th century before either bush was born the bush family moves to texas? then we could get president bush of the republic of texas

[Beck Reilly]

Well, I'm assuming that you don't change too much otherwise Bush will be a nonentity. If you have the elder Bush move, he would 1) not be eligable to be the President of the RoT and 2) he most likely will not meet Barbara in the first place. You must have him move in between the time he met his wife and the time the younger Bush was born. The chances of all this falling into place border on the impossible. Even if it is to happen, without the influence of the elder former President, the younger Bush will end up going nowhere.

[ConfederateFly]

What would the Texian Navy look between 1865-1893 possibly even a war with Spain?

[TheSevenLeggedFallyDowner]

Hey, I was kind of bored so I decided to find the oldest post on the board and bump it to the top just for the heck of it. Enjoy!

[Locke]

Erm...thank you? I love how these new people contribute...

[Doraemon]

Lol, I haven't seen Straha's posts in a really long time:D

[Grey Wolf]

Well, its a good question that has been resurrected at least :)

Were the Texas Rangers volunteer only ?

The navy was quite a professional force, tho Sam Houston didn't like it. After his rule, one assumes it would have been built back up again

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Falastur]

Seems the Texas Rangers were paid a monthly wage. Interestingly, their founder specified that the Rangers could exchange their salary for land grants every month.

[Northstar]

Doesn't Texas have loadsa oil?
If so wouldn't it be quite rich?
And if so, wouldn't lots of other nations interfere?
And if so, wouldn't Texas need a big military to defend itself?

[Petike]

Doesn't Texas have loadsa oil?
If so wouldn't it be quite rich?
And if so, wouldn't lots of other nations interfere?
And if so, wouldn't Texas need a big military to defend itself?

If they would get the sufficient tech for oil drilling in the 20. century... why not ? They'd gradually become something like a North American version of Venezuela or similiar. Smaller state, but with one of the biggest reserves of a precious fossile fuel in the world.

As for the military, I agree with comparing them to OTL Poland or Spain. Pretty realistic.

[Northstar]

What would be much 'cooler' would be if Texas became a North American version of Iran!

[Grey Wolf]

Doesn't Texas have loadsa oil?
If so wouldn't it be quite rich?
And if so, wouldn't lots of other nations interfere?
And if so, wouldn't Texas need a big military to defend itself?

True, but at first it was something of an economic basket-case. There would be a period of exploration, investment etc which would PROBABLY come from foreign companies, though some investors from the USA might move to set up their business there permanently.

It would need to get through the "Mexico" phase safely - where Mexico had its mineral wealth in foreign hands, loads of loans to foreign banks, and constant intervention from foreign countries after repayment

Maybe it would even need to nationalise existing businesses, but it would probably be able to raise funds a government to set up a state oil exploration and exploitation corporation, and thus keep a good percentage in its hands, and just pay off the start-up loans over time

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Northstar]

So what your saying is that there wouldn't be enough money left to build a large military?
How would this effect the USA? Surely the USA without Texas is going to get more involved (some would say interfer) with other oil rich countries to protect its own interests?

[Grey Wolf]

So what your saying is that there wouldn't be enough money left to build a large military?
How would this effect the USA? Surely the USA without Texas is going to get more involved (some would say interfer) with other oil rich countries to protect its own interests?

I'm thinking there wouldn't be the money left at the period that its most necessary.

By the time the revenues really come through would be after the danger period

US has oil in Oklahoma as well IIRC. In this scenario the fields there would be in competition with those in neighbouring Texas

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[von Adler]

I don't think Texas would be very popolous under these circumstances. Texas was rather sparsely populated until at least the 1920s OTL, and only internal migration within the US due to economical possibilities during and after ww2 increased the population to what it is today. Why would people migrate to Texas? Mexico and the states of the south had relatively little immigration compared to the north (that was why there was such a population difference 1860). I see Texas running the risk of becoming a Venezuela of the north rather than any kind of industrialised powerhouse (I don't think there's coal and iron to fuel an early industrialisation process, is there?).

[DuQuense]

If Texas doesn't join the Union, Then the Compromise of 1850 will be a lot different,
# California was entered as a free state.
No Mexican/American /war =California not part of US
# New Mexico and Utah were each allowed to use popular sovereignty to decide the issue of slavery. In other words, the people would pick whether the states would be free or slave.
See California above
# The Republic of Texas gave up lands that it claimed in present day New Mexico and received $10 million to pay its debt to Mexico.
Independent Texas has no reason to give up it's western claims.
# The slave trade was abolished in the District of Columbia.
This would be bitterly opposed by the Slave States, as the first step on the slippery slope.
# The Fugitive Slave Act made any federal official who did not arrest a runaway slave liable to pay a fine. This was the most controversial part of the Compromise of 1850 and caused many abolitionists to increase their efforts against slavery.
This may be the only bit that pass ITTL. It would be the High water Mark of Southern Power in Congress.
I see a much more bitter 1850's in the US, and more of a - let the Bastards leave- attitude in the North. Maybe even a - Kick them Out - attitude among some.

However this will not affect Texas Much, It's military will be involved with Fighting Indians [Comanches, Apaches, Navahos, ] in it's western territories,
It will also be preparing to refight Mexico, as it struggles and probably fails to pay it's debt to Mexico.
The Army would consist of a few very professional soldiers, who spend their time fighting Indians, and a large volunteer Militia, about the size that Texas raised in the ACW.

Early Texas will not has the recourses to expand the navy beyond the two or three ships it started with.
The Navy will start/function more as a coast guard, and that would be the tradition that would set the rules even after the oil money starts coming in.

[President Sam Houston]

I love TLs that are wankers for the Republic of Texas.

First a few facts and statistics from OTL RoT.
1836: Texas declares its independence from Mexico. At the time the entire Anglo/American population (including slaves) is about 35,000 to 40,000. The population is also very scattered across the southern and eastern portions of the OTL Texas. There are very few roads and the best transportation routs are over the navigable portions of the Brazos, Trinity, Colorado, Sabine, and Guadalupe rivers. At this point the only real commodity crop is cotton. No mineral interests have been exploited yet. There is almost no industrialization.

1845: The year that Texas is annexed by the US in OTL. The population has increased to about 80,000. Because the RoT has lacked funds, there has been little development of towns or roads. The Republic still looks much the same as it did 9 years earlier.

1846-1860: In OTL the state of Texas increases it population about 7 to 8 times in 15 years. According to USCB, the 1850 population is 212,000, and the 1860 population is 604,000. Only after statehood, the war with Mexico - and removal of that threat, the huge influx of US dollars, and the stability brought about by statehood, does Texas see an exponential increase in immigration, mostly from the southern states, but also from Europe as well - German states, Bohemia, Moravia, France. Only then did Texas see numerous towns spring up, roads begin to be built, some light industrialization, and additional commodity exploitation like timber, rice, sugar, and cattle.

1861-1900: In OTL it was only after the civil war that the cattle industry really took off, that the cotton industry become one of the largest providers of cotton in the world, and other industries really take hold. Many towns grew, but it wasn't until well into the 20th century that Texas had a city of more than 100,000. So the state remained an agrarian dominated rural state until the 1940s. In 1900 the population was little over 3,000,000, but it was scrattered across 200,000 square miles and no area of the state was densly populated.

1901: Oil is discovered in Texas. So oil doesn't become a factor until then. But it completely dominated the economy and the growth of the state from the early 1900s until the 1980s.

So even though I would love to see a well crafted and detailed ATL for the Republic of Texas making it into the 21st century, it is almost ASBish, since without statehood, I just don't see how the RoT could have made it at all, much less prospered in any way close to how it prospered after statehood.

[Grey Wolf]

So even though I would love to see a well crafted and detailed ATL for the Republic of Texas making it into the 21st century, it is almost ASBish, since without statehood, I just don't see how the RoT could have made it at all, much less prospered in any way close to how it prospered after statehood.

Yes, but the alternative to statehood is international recognition (Mexico reluctantly offered this if Texas would turn down annexation to the USA). Until this point, most countries have simply viewed Texas as a rebellious Mexican province, and since Mexico in this period has a multitude of these (including Yucatan and Sonora especially) its not encouraging to immigration or to investment

Once Texas gets itself internationally recognised, then Britain for one is certainly going to be investing in it - after all, their pressure on Mexico to recognise Texan independence was to enable them to gain influence there, rather than see it enter permanently the US sphere. Influence by its nature equates to doing something with it, or how do you have the influence ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf