Religious Right America

[tom]

Starting at my birthday (March 5, 1958) what is the most dominant possuble Religious Right and how did it become so?

[Max Sinister]

After WW3 (with nukes), the US barely surviving, they take control and form a religious dictature (read "The handmaid's tale")?

[gianluca790]

Father Coughlin becomes PRESIDENT Coughlin!:rolleyes:

[whmann1988]

Pat Robertson could be President and we would plunge into WWIII with the Islamic World and People's Republic of China.

[Wendell]

Roe v. Wade goes the other way. Butterflies lead President Carter to not lose the support of the Evangelicals. He edges out Reagan in the election after going Johnson in his campaign style. As such, the "Religious Right" remains a staple constituency of the Democratic Party. Bob Dole is elected President, and serves from 1985-1989. He is succeeded by John Glenn, and Glen's VP is the (then) socially conservative, pro-labor Dick Gephardt. Gephardt remains "pro-life" ITTL. After two terms, Gephardt and Gore lose (in the Election of 1996) to Republicans Arlen Specter and Pete Wilson. The democrats win in 2000 with a ticket of Dick Gephardt and Bill Bradley. Gore and Bradley are reelected in 2004.

Possible changes in U.S. and world policy?

U.S.:
Death Penalty Ended.
Abortion laws decided by the states
"Green evangelism" is the trend
Gay marriage is not popular, except for small movements in several parties
Christianity is used to justify a more openly peaceful U.S. foreign policy in the world.
Dennis Kucinich's "Department of Peace" proposal is before the U.S. Congress.

World:
Gorbachev's reforms in the U.S.S.R. were more successful. That country still exists today. Many consider it to be an "authoritarian social democracy" with legalized and utilized capital punishment.

[nunya]

Roe v. Wade goes the other way. Butterflies lead President Carter to not lose the support of the Evangelicals. He edges out Reagan in the election after going Johnson in his campaign style. As such, the "Religious Right" remains a staple constituency of the Democratic Party. Bob Dole is elected President, and serves from 1985-1989. He is succeeded by John Glenn, and Glen's VP is the (then) socially conservative, pro-labor Dick Gephardt. Gephardt remains "pro-life" ITTL. After two terms, Gephardt and Gore lose (in the Election of 1996) to Republicans Arlen Specter and Pete Wilson. The democrats win in 2000 with a ticket of Dick Gephardt and Bill Bradley. Gore and Bradley are reelected in 2004.

Possible changes in U.S. and world policy?

U.S.:
Death Penalty Ended.
Abortion laws decided by the states
"Green evangelism" is the trend
Gay marriage is not popular, except for small movements in several parties
Christianity is used to justify a more openly peaceful U.S. foreign policy in the world.
Dennis Kucinich's "Department of Peace" proposal is before the U.S. Congress.

World:
Gorbachev's reforms in the U.S.S.R. were more successful. That country still exists today. Many consider it to be an "authoritarian social democracy" with legalized and utilized capital punishment.
The new country suxxorz.I thought the Religous Right was the Religous RIGHT.Looks pretty lefty to me.

[Wendell]

The new country suxxorz.I thought the Religous Right was the Religous RIGHT.Looks pretty lefty to me.

What does the RR care about economic issues beyond tax perks? with a more socially conservative country, they stay a core constituency of the Democrats.

Oh, no NAFTA ITTL.

[David bar Elias]

Roe v. Wade goes the other way. Butterflies lead President Carter to not lose the support of the Evangelicals. He edges out Reagan in the election after going Johnson in his campaign style. As such, the "Religious Right" remains a staple constituency of the Democratic Party. Bob Dole is elected President, and serves from 1985-1989. He is succeeded by John Glenn, and Glen's VP is the (then) socially conservative, pro-labor Dick Gephardt. Gephardt remains "pro-life" ITTL. After two terms, Gephardt and Gore lose (in the Election of 1996) to Republicans Arlen Specter and Pete Wilson. The democrats win in 2000 with a ticket of Dick Gephardt and Bill Bradley. Gore and Bradley are reelected in 2004.

Possible changes in U.S. and world policy?

U.S.:
Death Penalty Ended.
Abortion laws decided by the states
"Green evangelism" is the trend
Gay marriage is not popular, except for small movements in several parties
Christianity is used to justify a more openly peaceful U.S. foreign policy in the world.
Dennis Kucinich's "Department of Peace" proposal is before the U.S. Congress.

World:
Gorbachev's reforms in the U.S.S.R. were more successful. That country still exists today. Many consider it to be an "authoritarian social democracy" with legalized and utilized capital punishment.

Interesting take on it.

I'm guessing the Republicans are a socially liberal/fiscally conservative party that does especially well in New England, the Pacific Northwest, and the Great Lakes Region (and the more libertarian-oriented West), while the Democrats do very well in the South and are competative in places like Utah.

Hmm...I'd imagine African-Americans and Latinos are even more solidly Democratic in such a TL (due to the generous Dem-supported social programs and sympathy for immigrants) while the Jews are more evenly split (socially liberal but economically liberal), while women are more likely to vote Republican (due to the perceived intrusivness of some Democratic initiatives).

[Wendell]

Interesting take on it.

I'm guessing the Republicans are a socially liberal/fiscally conservative party that does especially well in New England, the Pacific Northwest, and the Great Lakes Region (and the more libertarian-oriented West), while the Democrats do very well in the South and are competative in places like Utah.

Hmm...I'd imagine African-Americans and Latinos are even more solidly Democratic in such a TL (due to the generous Dem-supported social programs and sympathy for immigrants) while the Jews are more evenly split (socially liberal but economically liberal), while women are more likely to vote Republican (due to the perceived intrusivness of some Democratic initiatives).

Exactly. It produces an interesting situation, does it not. Maybe this should be made into a more serious and developed TL...

Did you notice ITTL that the U.S. has its first Jewish President?

[David bar Elias]

Exactly. It produces an interesting situation, does it not. Maybe this should be made into a more serious and developed TL...

Did you notice ITTL that the U.S. has its first Jewish President?

Yes. Arlen Specter isn't someone who often becomes President in ATLs...surprising, since IOTL he's from a pretty important state and can appeal to some people who normally don't vote Republican.

Maybe Joe Lieberman would have a better chance of becoming POTUS to.

Yeah, I'd like to see this timeline. For a POD, you could have Jimmy Carter successfuly get elected to the Governorship of Georgia in 1966 (IOTL he lost and suffered a major depression before becoming "born again"). In TTL, he learns how to enforce his will amongst legislators becomes born again a few years later than IOTL.

He builds up very positive national press, since his progressive legislation keeps Georgia unusually calm amongst the social chaos stemming from the Vietnam era. By the time Nixon has resigned from Watergate, Carter is ready to run for President. He isn't "Jimmy Who?" since he has such a positive national image from years of beneficial press coverage...and he has a natural charm built up from years of dealing with the GA legislature. He also cements the influential (and growing) constituency of very religious Southern voters, and promotes a sense of healing and renewal from the "Republican Malaise."

To further gain credit on national security issues, he picks Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson of Washington State as his Veep choice. And he has a solid lead in the polls going into the 1976 election...

Is that a good start?

[NapoleonXIV]

You seem to be taking the less influential parts of today's RR and elevating them to the main parts. Now a Carter emphasis might indeed do that, but I don't think it would last.

The main sticking point will be abortion. The RR will not accept states that have it and try to pressure them not to with Fed policy or campaign for a forbidding Constitutional Amendment. This will bring out the Womens Rights Groups and revive the ERA. The RR will radicalize in response to this and carry this over into other issues, such as gay rights.

Now you have women and gays against you. All you need is a major monetary scandal. Seeing how many occur now I don't think that will take long.

[NapoleonXIV]

The new country suxxorz.I thought the Religous Right was the Religous RIGHT.Looks pretty lefty to me.

You seem to be taking the less influential parts of today's RR and elevating them to the main parts. Now a Carter emphasis might indeed do that, but I don't think it would last.

The main sticking point will be abortion. The RR will not accept states that have it and try to pressure them not to with Fed policy or campaign for a forbidding Constitutional Amendment. This will bring out the Womens Rights Groups and revive the ERA. The RR will radicalize in response to this and carry this over into other issues, such as gay rights.

Now you have women and gays against you. All you need is a major monetary scandal. Seeing how many occur now I don't think that will take long.

[Wendell]

You seem to be taking the less influential parts of today's RR and elevating them to the main parts. Now a Carter emphasis might indeed do that, but I don't think it would last.

The main sticking point will be abortion. The RR will not accept states that have it and try to pressure them not to with Fed policy or campaign for a forbidding Constitutional Amendment. This will bring out the Womens Rights Groups and revive the ERA. The RR will radicalize in response to this and carry this over into other issues, such as gay rights.

Now you have women and gays against you. All you need is a major monetary scandal. Seeing how many occur now I don't think that will take long.

As you said, these are not impossible things to do...hhhmmm, maybe allow Roe v. Wade to be a major issue of the 1976 campaign?

[Firestorm]

What does the RR care about economic issues beyond tax perks? with a more socially conservative country, they stay a core constituency of the Democrats.

Oh, no NAFTA ITTL.
:D

I'd also imagine a more Buchananite foriegn policy, as opposed to Clintonian peacekeeping and Bush's War on Terror. Neo-conservatism and neo-liberalism would both have small yet moderately powerfull followings.

I wonder what American anarchism would look like in this timeline, without the anti-globalisation movement.

[Wendell]

:D

I'd also imagine a more Buchananite foriegn policy, as opposed to Clintonian peacekeeping and Bush's War on Terror. Neo-conservatism and neo-liberalism would both have small yet moderately powerfull followings.

I wonder what American anarchism would look like in this timeline, without the anti-globalisation movement.

The Republicans ITTL will be more solidly neoliberal most likely, with probably a more buchananite foreign policy, yes. The cold war will have been "won" by the decision ITTL of the Warsaw Pact to dissolve itself, and a more Democratic USSR exists, or will come to exist. U.S. Neoconservatism will, however, be far weaker, yes.

I don't know about anarchism in this TL, but perhap[s it is more religiously inspired?

[David bar Elias]

The Republicans ITTL will be more solidly neoliberal most likely, with probably a more buchananite foreign policy, yes. The cold war will have been "won" by the decision ITTL of the Warsaw Pact to dissolve itself, and a more Democratic USSR exists, or will come to exist. U.S. Neoconservatism will, however, be far weaker, yes.

I don't know about anarchism in this TL, but perhap[s it is more religiously inspired?

What about my idea for a POD?

I'm thinking that ITTL, Carter, with his legislative skills and with a firm foreign policy, is able to set America on the road to recovery, and win reelection in 1980. IOTL, Carter was the POTUS who enacted the first restrictions on abortion...here, I'm thinking that it's far more extensive.

Thoughts?

[Dan1988]

So the Dems become the American conservative party and the Republicans become the American liberal party. Not bad, considering that's how it originally was.

[David bar Elias]

So the Dems become the American conservative party and the Republicans become the American liberal party. Not bad, considering that's how it originally was.

Actually, the Dems are still very economically liberal in this scenario...they're just socially conservative.

[Dan1988]

The GOP in OTL are economically liberal; apparently that's part of the American conservative tradition.

[Count Dearborn]

How about a more vocal and militant response to the election of John F. Kennedy? Billy Graham spoke out against his running for office on the fact that Kennedy was Catholic.

[Wendell]

What about my idea for a POD?

I'm thinking that ITTL, Carter, with his legislative skills and with a firm foreign policy, is able to set America on the road to recovery, and win reelection in 1980. IOTL, Carter was the POTUS who enacted the first restrictions on abortion...here, I'm thinking that it's far more extensive.

Thoughts?

I like it. I'm doing research on events for the TL now.

[Wendell]

The GOP in OTL are economically liberal; apparently that's part of the American conservative tradition.

The United States is a country where both major parties are liberal parties. One party is generally a conservative-liberal party, and the other is generally a progressive-liberal party.

[Wendell]

Actually, the Dems are still very economically liberal in this scenario...they're just socially conservative.

Economically progressive is likely your intent here. Free markets and less regulation are a liberal concept in most of the world.

[Dan1988]

The United States is a country where both major parties are liberal parties. One party is generally a conservative-liberal party, and the other is generally a progressive-liberal party.

Not suprised for a bit, though I thought the Republicans were liberal conservative (there is a difference between liberal conservatism and conservative liberalism, you know). Now all we need is a Christian democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democracy) party and things would be all set.

[Wendell]

Not suprised for a bit, though I thought the Republicans were liberal conservative (there is a difference between liberal conservatism and conservative liberalism, you know). Now all we need is a Christian democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democracy) party and things would be all set.

liberal conservatism and conservative liberalism are not that different, but point taken. I think there are some who in our timeline would like to make the GOP a Christian Democratic Party.

[Dan1988]

That would be pretty interesting. Imagine Bush praising the social market economy!

[NapoleonXIV]

Are you just handwaving away the 73% of Americans who strongly support a womans right to choose? That indicates a deeply held cultural value to me, so if you're just ignoring it the scenario becomes ASBish.

Having it a state's rights thing won't work. Most of the states will move to have it, and those that don't will be overwhelmed by a nationally based Women's Rights campaign. If you have the RR oppose the WR on the state level or support a prohibiting Constitutional Amendment, you revive the ERA, which very nearly passed last time out.

[Dan1988]

You do realize Nap that you just crossed the line in my head? Fortunately for you, I'll keep my mouth shut and wait until a similar thread opens up in the Chat.

[David bar Elias]

I like it. I'm doing research on events for the TL now.

Excellent! :) :cool:

[Firestorm]

I don't know about anarchism in this TL, but perhap[s it is more religiously inspired?
I would expect a backlash against the perceived church-state collusion, but it's also possible the anarchists would present Tolstyism and groups such as the Catholic Worker Movement as alternatives to the statist version of religion.

[NapoleonXIV]

You do realize Nap that you just crossed the line in my head? Fortunately for you, I'll keep my mouth shut and wait until a similar thread opens up in the Chat.

If you have a way this difficulty can be obviated, present it here, that's what the thread's for.

You could just have a different Roe v Wade but then that would surely pass the ERA, perhaps NO Roe V Wade would be better.

[Firestorm]

... ... .... .......... .... ... 73% of Americans who strongly support a womans right to choose? .... ......... . ...... .... ........ ..... .. .., .. .. ...... .... ........ .. ... ........ ....... .......

Oookay...:rolleyes:

I know I'm new here, and as much as I enjoy 12-page flame wars that quickly disown a thread of any intellegent substance, it seems the more restrictive structure of this forum don't put up with that kind of stuff. Therefore I'm gonna politely request a less inciteful rephrasing.:)

EDIT: how do you use strikethrough here? :p

[Firestorm]

If you have a way this difficulty can be obviated, present it here, that's what the thread's for.

You could just have a different Roe v Wade but then that would surely pass the ERA, perhaps NO Roe V Wade would be better.
Abortion today is what slavery was in 1850; a hotbutton issue that stirs alot of passion and general meanness from supporters and detractors. However most of the mainstream population have mixed feelings on the issue itself, and misgivings for those who take strong positions on either side. For those that matter it's just a method of getting votes.

[MerryPrankster]

The main sticking point will be abortion. The RR will not accept states that have it and try to pressure them not to with Fed policy or campaign for a forbidding Constitutional Amendment. This will bring out the Womens Rights Groups and revive the ERA. The RR will radicalize in response to this and carry this over into other issues, such as gay rights.


That depends on the RR. Many will be satisfied that abortion is a state-level issue and will content themselves with campaigning against it state-by-state. Thus abortion is illegal or closely regulated in the South and much of the Midwest, but legal in the NE, the Pac NW, and the coasts.

Others, however, would claim that leaving it up to the states is "the Confederate solution" (you should see the abortion debates on Free Republic) and say that federal action is REQUIRED.

The RR in such a situation might be very divided and thus not very effective.

[MerryPrankster]

Are you just handwaving away the 73% of Americans who strongly support a womans right to choose? That indicates a deeply held cultural value to me, so if you're just ignoring it the scenario becomes ASBish.


How closely do those 73% hold this view? Are you saying that 73% of Americans support abortion on demand for any reason (I doubt that), or 73% are pro-choice TO SOME DEGREE (ie health of the mother, rape, incest, etc).

[MerryPrankster]

How about a more vocal and militant response to the election of John F. Kennedy? Billy Graham spoke out against his running for office on the fact that Kennedy was Catholic.

Could you cite that, please?

I always thought BG was rather ecumenical--I came across a fundie site that bashed him up and down for not preaching against Catholicism.

[Dan1988]

perhaps NO Roe V Wade would be better.

I agree.:D

[Wendell]

Are you just handwaving away the 73% of Americans who strongly support a womans right to choose? That indicates a deeply held cultural value to me, so if you're just ignoring it the scenario becomes ASBish.
Have you a source for this statistic?:confused:
I can see that most support abortions in some instances, but I don't think you will find numbers that high endorsing "partial birth abortion".
Having it a state's rights thing won't work. Most of the states will move to have it, and those that don't will be overwhelmed by a nationally based Women's Rights campaign. If you have the RR oppose the WR on the state level or support a prohibiting Constitutional Amendment, you revive the ERA, which very nearly passed last time out.
And some have reintroduced the ERA. That said, the ERA and a "Right to Life" amendment are not necessarily opposites. One could end up with a combination of the two.

Also, contrary to your assumption, if a woman cannot get an abortion in state A, she could have one in state B. Rather than actively trying to get abortion-on-demand legal in all of the states, women's groups may be busy working to keep it legal/reduce restrictions in states where abortion is legal.

[Michael E Johnson]

Could you cite that, please?

I always thought BG was rather ecumenical--I came across a fundie site that bashed him up and down for not preaching against Catholicism.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-19592305.html

http://www.beth-elsa.org/be_s0419a.htm

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,939163,00.html

[Wendell]

Excellent! :) :cool:

Do you realize how hard it is to get Carter elected Governor of Georgia (for just one term, BTW) in 1966?

It's not easily. Nonetheless, I've learned alot in trying to research possiblities.