Risban
December 1st, 2006, 07:51 PM
Alright, no offense Rameiro, but I think you've made some minor historical mistakes that are now becoming major, and I'm going to list them now:
-1. France owns Algeria, not Tunisia, I believe. I don't think they acquire Tunisia until 1881.
-2. Italy has no claims on the east African coast. That doesn't happen until later.
-3. The Ottoman Empire does NOT have any authority of anything west of Egypt. The Caliph is like their Pope, and that is about it. The Ottomans have not been able to exert any authority over there since the 18th century. Libya, Tripolitania, Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco (aka: The Barbary States), are all virtually independent of TOE (especially Algeria, since it is occupied by the French).
Now, for more detail on Tunisia:
French control over Tunisia, achieved in 1881, brings to an end several decades of diplomatic jockeying between three colonials powers, France, Britain and Italy. All three are officially involved in the region from 1869.
The local dynasty of beys (technically subordinate to the Turkish sultan but in practice independent) have in recent decades spent lavishly to modernize their country, using funds borrowed in Europe. The programme, accompanied by necessary attempts to increase taxes, creates profound local resentment. By 1869 it is clear that the province is bankrupt. France, Britain and Italy are placed jointly, by international agreement, in control of Tunisian finances.
This arrangement is inevitably a platform on which three rival colonial powers jockey and trade for position. France and Britain stand together in 1871 when the Italians begin to press vigorous claims (justified in the sense that Italy has more investment and more nationals settled in Tunisia than either other contender).
By 1878 France and Britain come to a quiet agreement that the British will allow Tunisia to be a French sphere of influence in return for French acceptance of the recently established British presence in Cyprus. This still leaves the Italians as the chief claimants for a colonial presence in Tunisia, until the French make a pre-emptive strike in 1881.
So, yeah, no one controls it now.
Italy doesn't lay claim to anything near Ethiopia until later.
As for the "moods" towards the continent, France and Britain historically were the two positioning for power around it. Once Italy was unified, they pushed for the northern coastline (as the quote above shows) as they felt their claim to it was strongest, and they also eventually settled on the east as well. Spain and Portugal each could have claims as they are both respected (former) colonial powers, and the already have claims in Africa. The Dutch feel they have some claims to make, the Americans have a protectorate in Liberia, the Ottomans sort of control Egypt and have no way of controlling anything west of Egypt, etc. Russian involvement in Africa would be a little disdained by most Europeans, but not stopped--- however, Russian claims to authority over the Ottoman Empire's lands would NOT be met well, no matter what the circumstances, by Europeans--- mostly because the Europeans would want a chunk of the action as well, would like to try keep this balance of power bit in place, and would announce ideological reasons why Russia shouldn't be able to do that. So, DGNT, I'd have your delegate stop really claiming that at this particular meeting as Russia would already be on rather shakey grounds.
Austrian and Prussian claims are recognizable, since Prussia I believe has already staked some out, but Austria is in absolutely no position to be getting crank and making such hard-lined demands, because Austria is no where near a respected colonial power and never really becomes one. I'd suggest Austria try be a bit more compromising.
Italian claims would be a little mixed, as the prime portion of the kingdom is just recently independent from Austria and France and still in the process of completely unifying (though, please note, that it is not a civil war between Piedmont-Sardinia and the Two Sicilies; even historically, Giuseppe Garibaldi did this all himself "in the name of Victor Emmanuel." This time, Savoy just gave Garibaldi a few extra troops). However, Italy claims in the Mediterranean area would most likely be met respectably, so long as they aren't incredibly demanding and unflinching to the Great Powers, and would only be able to lay claim to other lands congenially and with the will of the others. We need to bear in mind that in this alternate-history, Italy is a bit more active in part thanks to the French not being able to dictate so much to the Italians, and this conference historically happened in the future when Italy WAS unified, but now it's in the process still, so yeah. Some goes for France-- they are weaker, but still powerful and respected. However, they are probably in no position to be making too mant demands.
Finally, the RPers should remember that without a powerful France, in Africa it will be Britain calling most of the shots and it is Britain's suggestions that, in the long run, should be taken most carefully (even though the Portuguese host is offering great compromises). Russia falls close behind Britain in the influence, but Russia's influence over most of Africa is no where near the Briton's power, primarily to the British uber-fleet versus Russia. So, keep that in mind. It would pay to be polite to everyone (for the smaller powers), but ESPECIALLY the British.
I suggest a pause really quick on IC responses to the topic until we, ya know, get this out there...
-1. France owns Algeria, not Tunisia, I believe. I don't think they acquire Tunisia until 1881.
-2. Italy has no claims on the east African coast. That doesn't happen until later.
-3. The Ottoman Empire does NOT have any authority of anything west of Egypt. The Caliph is like their Pope, and that is about it. The Ottomans have not been able to exert any authority over there since the 18th century. Libya, Tripolitania, Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco (aka: The Barbary States), are all virtually independent of TOE (especially Algeria, since it is occupied by the French).
Now, for more detail on Tunisia:
French control over Tunisia, achieved in 1881, brings to an end several decades of diplomatic jockeying between three colonials powers, France, Britain and Italy. All three are officially involved in the region from 1869.
The local dynasty of beys (technically subordinate to the Turkish sultan but in practice independent) have in recent decades spent lavishly to modernize their country, using funds borrowed in Europe. The programme, accompanied by necessary attempts to increase taxes, creates profound local resentment. By 1869 it is clear that the province is bankrupt. France, Britain and Italy are placed jointly, by international agreement, in control of Tunisian finances.
This arrangement is inevitably a platform on which three rival colonial powers jockey and trade for position. France and Britain stand together in 1871 when the Italians begin to press vigorous claims (justified in the sense that Italy has more investment and more nationals settled in Tunisia than either other contender).
By 1878 France and Britain come to a quiet agreement that the British will allow Tunisia to be a French sphere of influence in return for French acceptance of the recently established British presence in Cyprus. This still leaves the Italians as the chief claimants for a colonial presence in Tunisia, until the French make a pre-emptive strike in 1881.
So, yeah, no one controls it now.
Italy doesn't lay claim to anything near Ethiopia until later.
As for the "moods" towards the continent, France and Britain historically were the two positioning for power around it. Once Italy was unified, they pushed for the northern coastline (as the quote above shows) as they felt their claim to it was strongest, and they also eventually settled on the east as well. Spain and Portugal each could have claims as they are both respected (former) colonial powers, and the already have claims in Africa. The Dutch feel they have some claims to make, the Americans have a protectorate in Liberia, the Ottomans sort of control Egypt and have no way of controlling anything west of Egypt, etc. Russian involvement in Africa would be a little disdained by most Europeans, but not stopped--- however, Russian claims to authority over the Ottoman Empire's lands would NOT be met well, no matter what the circumstances, by Europeans--- mostly because the Europeans would want a chunk of the action as well, would like to try keep this balance of power bit in place, and would announce ideological reasons why Russia shouldn't be able to do that. So, DGNT, I'd have your delegate stop really claiming that at this particular meeting as Russia would already be on rather shakey grounds.
Austrian and Prussian claims are recognizable, since Prussia I believe has already staked some out, but Austria is in absolutely no position to be getting crank and making such hard-lined demands, because Austria is no where near a respected colonial power and never really becomes one. I'd suggest Austria try be a bit more compromising.
Italian claims would be a little mixed, as the prime portion of the kingdom is just recently independent from Austria and France and still in the process of completely unifying (though, please note, that it is not a civil war between Piedmont-Sardinia and the Two Sicilies; even historically, Giuseppe Garibaldi did this all himself "in the name of Victor Emmanuel." This time, Savoy just gave Garibaldi a few extra troops). However, Italy claims in the Mediterranean area would most likely be met respectably, so long as they aren't incredibly demanding and unflinching to the Great Powers, and would only be able to lay claim to other lands congenially and with the will of the others. We need to bear in mind that in this alternate-history, Italy is a bit more active in part thanks to the French not being able to dictate so much to the Italians, and this conference historically happened in the future when Italy WAS unified, but now it's in the process still, so yeah. Some goes for France-- they are weaker, but still powerful and respected. However, they are probably in no position to be making too mant demands.
Finally, the RPers should remember that without a powerful France, in Africa it will be Britain calling most of the shots and it is Britain's suggestions that, in the long run, should be taken most carefully (even though the Portuguese host is offering great compromises). Russia falls close behind Britain in the influence, but Russia's influence over most of Africa is no where near the Briton's power, primarily to the British uber-fleet versus Russia. So, keep that in mind. It would pay to be polite to everyone (for the smaller powers), but ESPECIALLY the British.
I suggest a pause really quick on IC responses to the topic until we, ya know, get this out there...