WI: Mate as popular as coffee

[Hendryk]

Yerba mate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerba_mate) (Rioplatense Spanish) or erva mate (Portuguese) (Ilex paraguariensis) is a species of holly (family Aquifoliaceae) native to subtropical South America in Argentina, southern Paraguay, southern Uruguay and southern Brazil. The infusion called mate is prepared by steeping the dried leaves in hot water rather than boiling water like tea or coffee. It is slightly less potent than coffee and much gentler on the stomach. Drinking mate with friends from a shared hollow gourd (also called a mate in Spanish, or cabaça or cuia in Portuguese) with a metal straw (a bombilla in Spanish, bomba or canudo in Portuguese) is an extremely common social practice in Argentina, Uruguay, southern Paraguay, the east side of Chile and southern Bolivia and Brazil. Its use has also been introduced into Lebanon and Syria, particularly among the Alawi and Druze minority.

The flavor of brewed yerba mate is strongly vegetal, herbal, and grassy, reminiscent of some varieties of green tea, though the flavor is much stronger than green tea can achieve. Many consider the flavor to be very agreeable, however, it is generally bitter if steeped in water at boiling point and is traditionally made using boiling water combined with a little cold water. Unlike most teas, it does not become bitter and astringent when steeped for extended periods, and the leaves may be infused several times. Additionally, one can purchase flavored mate, in orange, raspberry, strong, and gentle flavorings.

In Brazil, a toasted version of mate, known as chá mate or "mate tea", is sold in teabag and loose form, and served, sweetened, in specialized shops, either hot or iced with fruit juice or milk. An iced, sweetened version of toasted mate is sold as an uncarbonated soft drink, with or without fruit flavoring. The toasted variety of mate has less of a bitter flavor and more of a spicy fragrance. It is more popular in the coastal cities of Brazil, as opposed to the far southern states where it is consumed in the traditional way (green, drunk with a silver straw from a shared gourd).
So what POD would have been necessary for mate to become as popular throughout the world as coffee? And what differences would it make?

The idea came to me when my sister showed a packet of yerba mate she was given by a friend returning from Latin America. To me it looked rather like green tea, but she told me the rush it gives gets rather addictive after a while.

[Tocomocho]

a) Mate is as potent as coffee
b) Muslims don't adopt coffee
c) Coffee never evolves

[Hendryk]

b) Muslims don't adopt coffee
Hardly all Muslims drink coffee. It's a Turkish habit, but neither an Arab nor an Indo-Pakistani one, and definitely not an Indonesian one. But this gives me an idea. Mate got to be known in Syria and Lebanon thanks to returning migrants who had sojourned in Argentina. Let's suppose that one of them, sensing a business opportunity, decides to advertise mate as an alternative both to tea (which he portrays as old-fashioned) and coffee (which he reviles as a Western beverage). Before long drinking mate is all the rage in the Mashreq, and by the early 1990s it begins to spread in South and South-East Asia, riding its reputation as a proudly non-Western drink (the detail that it was originally consumed in Latin America being conveniently forgotten, why let pesky facts get in the way of a good marketing strategy?). As of 2006 nearly two billion people are regular mate drinkers.

[Flocculencio]

Hardly all Muslims drink coffee. It's a Turkish habit, but neither an Arab nor an Indo-Pakistani one, and definitely not an Indonesian one.

Actually, South Indians, including South Indian Muslims, drink lots of coffee.

[Tom Veil]

Tocomocho was referring to how Muslims discovered coffee in Ethiopia, where the locals had been drinking it for centuries, but had little success in exporting it. Those Muslims adopted it and spread it to the umma and to the rest of the world. Many of the Muslims involved in that process were Turks, but some were Arab and some were of other ethnicities.

[Hendryk]

Actually, South Indians, including South Indian Muslims, drink lots of coffee.
That'll teach me to make sweeping generalizations about a part of the world I have no particular knowledge of.

Now does that invalidate my hypothesis? Could another drink be taken up in South and South-East Asia as a show of cultural differentiation from the Western world?

[Gonzaga]

I'm not sure if replace coffe for mate could be possible with a POD after 1900. Coffe is too much popular, and is planted in many places. Maybe with a POD in the 1700's, with the jesuites making mate popular in catholic countries.

[Kidblast]

Actually, South Indians, including South Indian Muslims, drink lots of coffee.

My Malayalee friend drinks lots and lots of coffee. The only time I drink the stuff is over at his house. I say that's why he is short! :)

[Hendryk]

I'm not sure if replace coffe for mate could be possible with a POD after 1900. Coffe is too much popular, and is planted in many places. Maybe with a POD in the 1700's, with the jesuites making mate popular in catholic countries.
Oh heck, there was no particular reason why I started this thread in the post-1900 forum. If someone can think of a pre-1900 POD, fine.

Incidentally, I don't remember whether he mentioned it, but mate is probably a fairly popular drink in robertp6165's "Guns of the Tawantinsuya" TL.

[Leo Caesius]

Hardly all Muslims drink coffee. It's a Turkish habit, but neither an Arab nor an Indo-Pakistani one, and definitely not an Indonesian one. But this gives me an idea. Mate got to be known in Syria and Lebanon thanks to returning migrants who had sojourned in Argentina.Mate is incredibly popular among the Druze for some reason. The last time I was up in the Chouf, everyone was drinking it. I'm not sure why it would catch on among this small group (possibly due to seasonal migration between South America and Syria), but if it could become popular with one demographic, it could become popular with other ones.

About Turkish coffee: ironically, Turkey's economic woes were such that, during the 60s, most Turks couldn't afford to buy imported coffee (coffee not being indigenous to Turkey). Tea, however, is domestic (grown especially in areas like Rize on the Black Sea coast). As a consequence, tea has become the national drink of Turkey; you can still get Turkish coffee, but it still hasn't shaken its reputation as a luxury good, and consequently most of the people who drink it are tourists.

The Arabs, on the other hand, love their coffee, except for the Druze, who drink mate.

So, here's a scenario: it catches on with the Society of Jesus, who spread it throughout the world. For example, a group of Jesuits, fresh from Latin America, import the yerba mate plant to the Maronites in Lebanon, who grow it on the slopes of the Chouf, Mt. Lebanon, etc. The Druze bring it to Mt. Hermon and Jebel ad-Duruz in Syria, and the Alawites cultivate it in the Alawi mountains. Before you know it, it is growing throughout the Levant (this isn't so different from the situation of OTL, but imagine it repeating throughout the world wherever Jesuits are to be found and wherever the holly can be grown).

A worldwide depression (or blight affecting coffee) causes a steep rise in the cost of coffee. In response, many people turn to the new plant brought by the Jesuits (just as the Turks turned to tea).

[Hendryk]

So, here's a scenario: it catches on with the Society of Jesus, who spread it throughout the world. For example, a group of Jesuits, fresh from Latin America, import the yerba mate plant to the Maronites in Lebanon, who grow it on the slopes of the Chouf, Mt. Lebanon, etc. The Druze bring it to Mt. Hermon and Jebel ad-Duruz in Syria, and the Alawites cultivate it in the Alawi mountains. Before you know it, it is growing throughout the Levant.

A worldwide depression (or blight affecting coffee) causes a steep rise in the cost of coffee. In response, many people turn to the new plant brought by the Jesuits (just as the Turks turned to tea).
Sounds good to me. Now let's see how we can end up with a worldwide mate franchise à la Starbucks ;)

[Gonzaga]

But could the erva mate be planted in Lebanon? It requires: tropical or subtropical climate (but supports the frost very well); high humidity and good precipitation (around 1500 millimeters per year) precipitation; deep soils, located in places 400 to 800 meters above the sea level. In places with these conditions, a erva mate plantation can work.

[NapoleonXIV]

Sounds good to me. Now let's see how we can end up with a worldwide mate franchise à la Starbucks ;)

A double latte mate?

Wouldn't the strong, grassy flavor be a problem there? One thing that coffee really has going for it is a resemblance to and mixability with chocolate. What could you mix with mate?

[The Ubbergeek]

I like matte, myself. :)

Well, it would compete more with tea, Hendryk, I say.

So, perhaps if a respected muslim leader wipe out a fatwa where he conclude that matte is foreign yet halal in spirit?

[Leo Caesius]

But could the erva mate be planted in Lebanon? It requires: tropical or subtropical climate (but supports the frost very well); high humidity and good precipitation (around 1500 millimeters per year) precipitation; deep soils, located in places 400 to 800 meters above the sea level. In places with these conditions, a erva mate plantation can work.Sounds like Mt. Lebanon to me. I'm under the impression that holly does well in places where cedar grows, and cedar is about as Lebanese as you can get.

So, perhaps if a respected muslim leader wipe out a fatwa where he conclude that matte is foreign yet halal in spirit?It would take more than this. Tea is just as alien to the Middle East as mate, but it has never been considered harram just because it is foreign in origin.

Individual fatwas have about as much impact as court rulings - they may affect the circumstances of a few individuals, and (if the mufti is important enough) will be noted by those who follow such things, but most Muslims go about their lives completely unaware of them.

[The Ubbergeek]

Hum... Tea is a part of middle eastern cuisines.... Mint tea, guy?

[strangeland]

Does mate grow well anywhere outside of South America?

mate >>>>>coffee IMO. the world would be a better place:)

[Tocomocho]

Tocomocho was referring to how Muslims discovered coffee in Ethiopia, where the locals had been drinking it for centuries, but had little success in exporting it. Those Muslims adopted it and spread it to the umma and to the rest of the world. Many of the Muslims involved in that process were Turks, but some were Arab and some were of other ethnicities.

Exactly. The Turks only noticed the coffee because it was more or less popular in Egypt and Arabia.

[fortyseven]

So what it'll be mate, mate? :D

[Leo Caesius]

Hum... Tea is a part of middle eastern cuisines.... Mint tea, guy?It is today, but it wasn't until relatively recently that this was the case. It's not indigenous to the region.

In any case, Muslims don't consider things haram just because they are foreign in origin - otherwise they'd have to dispense with tea, coffee, tomatoes, eggplants, and many other things that were only introduced to the region in post-Islamic times.

Mint tea it is actually an infusion, not a tea, as it is made without tea leaves.

[Flocculencio]

My Malayalee friend drinks lots and lots of coffee. The only time I drink the stuff is over at his house. I say that's why he is short! :)

I'm Malayalee and I'm 6'2". Obviously it's not the coffee :D

But yeah, Malayalees pretty much live on a combination of coffee and pent-up hatred for all other types of Indians :D

[Kidblast]

I'm Malayalee and I'm 6'2". Obviously it's not the coffee :D

But yeah, Malayalees pretty much live on a combination of coffee and pent-up hatred for all other types of Indians :D

I think I'll show him this.... It fits him to the tee! :D

[Hendryk]

So, there's speculation (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=84673) in the other forum about removing tobacco from human history, and it brought back to mind this WI of mine about another American weed, though this one is ingested rather than inhaled.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Mate_03_calabaza.jpg/409px-Mate_03_calabaza.jpg

[Setonrebel]

Have pope Vincent III ban coffee instead of accepting it. Coffee was believed by some Christians to be the devil's drink. Pope Vincent III heard this and decided to taste it before he banished it. He enjoyed it so much he baptized it, saying "coffee is so delicious it would be a pity to let the infidels have exclusive use of it." Have him like the taste of coffee a little less and there is your excuse for no coffee. Now having mate replace tea in the western world is the problem. And don't think it isn't possible, until Vatican II all Catholics did not eat meat on any friday, and a lot didn't eat it on wensdays either. just have the church tradition of no coffee exsist unti lthe present day.

[Hendryk]

Have him like the taste of coffee a little less and there is your excuse for no coffee.
I don't necessarily want to make coffee less popular; I want maté to be more popular. Leo was on to something when he suggested having the Jesuits popularize the drink. It would be interesting to see it catch on in the Levant and spread East from there, but there's also the possibility of the Jesuits introducing the drink in the various Catholic courts of Europe, where it would become yet another fad like chocolate; from there, it would be picked up by the upper classes and then the bourgeoisie. By the 19th century one could imagine a division of Europe between the Protestant tea-drinkers and the Catholic maté-drinkers.

[Gonzaga]

I don't necessarily want to make coffee less popular; I want maté to be more popular. Leo was on to something when he suggested having the Jesuits popularize the drink. It would be interesting to see it catch on in the Levant and spread East from there, but there's also the possibility of the Jesuits introducing the drink in the various Catholic courts of Europe, where it would become yet another fad like chocolate; from there, it would be picked up by the upper classes and then the bourgeoisie. By the 19th century one could imagine a division of Europe between the Protestant tea-drinkers and the Catholic maté-drinkers.

Another possible consequence is that the Plata basin would become much wealthier than OTL, with erva-mate taking the place of coffee or tobbaco. But I believe it's not good news to the Guarany and the Jesuits. This wealth would make Spain and Portugal taking and colonising the lands there even strongly than OTL.

[tallwingedgoat]

The Dutch get a taste for it from their South American colonies and starts Yerba plantations in the New World. The VOC cultivate it in Java and Ceylon. They make some in-roads selling it to the British as a lower cost competitor to Chinese tea. The savings come from the shorter sailing distances invovled. The Portugese too, plant yerba in their colonies to cash in on the yerba tea trade.

After Ceylon was brought under British control in 1796, the British East India company promoted Ceylon yerba. In time mate became as British as Earl Grey.

Dutch and Portugese yerba sales in the American colonies unintentionally received a boom after Parliament passed the Townsend Acts which placed heavy tax on tea.

[Admiral Brown]

The Dutch get a taste for it from their South American colonies and starts Yerba plantations in the New World. The VOC cultivate it in Java and Ceylon. They make some in-roads selling it to the British as a lower cost competitor to Chinese tea. The savings come from the shorter sailing distances invovled. The Portugese too, plant yerba in their colonies to cash in on the yerba tea trade.

After Ceylon was brought under British control in 1796, the British East India company promoted Ceylon yerba. In time mate became as British as Earl Grey.

Dutch and Portugese yerba sales in the American colonies unintentionally received a boom after Parliament passed the Townsend Acts which placed heavy tax on tea.

It's possible, but I think mate wasn't grown by natives of any of the Dutch colonies in South America. Of course, there were Dutch merchants in Brazil and in the Rio de La Plata, so maybe they can take them from there to their colonies

[Gonzaga]

It's possible, but I think mate wasn't grown by natives of any of the Dutch colonies in South America. Of course, there were Dutch merchants in Brazil and in the Rio de La Plata, so maybe they can take them from there to their colonies

Indeed, the Dutch only had colonies in Pernambuco and Guiana, where obviously mate doesn't grow. Even if they conquer some point in the southern coast it would not help, because the trees doesn't grow near to the sea. They would need to establish some relation with the Guarany to take the leaves from the countryside.