(E.I. Game) Irish Debate

[Risban]

Alright. Enigma brought up some good points about the Catholic/Protestant and Irish/British relations of this time period. I decided not to intervene because I assumed that Muse Of History would have suitable arguments to back his actions. However, the arguments presented are not sufficient. Let me tell you why.


1. The Crown in this TL doesn't have as many colonies to feed, so no potato famine (it wasn't the end of the earth sorta famine, and its events aren't super probable anyway.)

Right.... Sure... You do know what a famine is, right? It's when you can't grow any food, not when there are too many people to eat the food. This argument is completely wrong. The famine would happen full-blast anyways, if not just a LITTLE weaker. Furthermore, Ireland's potatoes didn't really supply all the British colonies with food, so that would hardly have ANY impact on it at all.
FURTHERMORE, the Great Famine happened BEFORE this timeline went alternate history. That means it still happened and the repurcussions are still being drastically felt. In fact, these repurcussions are not GREATER than they were historically as you have removed any form of government. At this time period, Ireland was poor and starving, and now with anarchy in the Isles it's even worse.


2. The existence of the UR is NOT a result of revolution, deliberately executed to usurp the crown. The crown just fell apart, the nobles were killed, and lots of people (Irish people even...) took action to take care of their town or city, the UR is a result of that. Brunel recruited the individuals who took control of cities and towns and formed them up into one group. The UR is not a democratic republic. Its not a Republic at all. There are no court systems, no legal rules have been set down, hell its hardly a nation. As can be seen by the events of all of its colonies getting up and giving it the finger.

Umm... When the ruling noble class is murdered, it is usually a coup or revolution, particularly if the King is gone too. On that note, the British crown doesn't just "fall apart"-- events are put in place where individuals looking to remove the regime from power does just that.
You also, as I believe Enigma was pointing out, have absolutely no idea whatsoever of Anglo-Irish relations and Catholic/Protestant relations in this time period. Irish Catholics and British Protestants do NOT want to work together. Ireland hates Britain. End of story.


3. The crown was nicer, more concessions and such (Don't wanna get replaced by a Napoleon look alike, which was a popular idea in Ireland for some time. Too late now though), permission to be as catholicy and such.
Yeah... Catholocism was legalised a few decades ago in Ireland. 1820s or 1830s; I can't recall. However, the British Crown and Parliament were hardly nicer. If you are using this argument (which is an argument that doesn't work), then how can you justify the Irish being happy that the "nice" crown fell?


4. And as it happens relations weren't as bad before the Potato famine as before hand anyway.
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Alright... So... I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you've never read anything at all on Irish history. Let's have a mini-refresher, shall we?
--1798: Irish Rebellion
--1800: Act of Union
--1829: Massive PEACEFUL movement begins among the Irish to repeal the Act of Union; Catholic Emancipation
--1830s: The Tithe Wars between Irish peasantry and Protestant churches, resulting in violence and instability throughout the decade.
--1846: Great Famine Begins, resulting in one million deaths and one million emigrations; the Whig Government's leader, racist towards Irishmen, does the least he can to help the starving people.
--1848: The oranization "Young Irelanders" launches a rebellion against British rule, but is promptly shot down.
--1849: Battle of Dolly's Brae, where Irish Catholics get into a fight against Protestants, killing dozens.
--1850: NOW you get to decide what happened. Everything else before this happened. Thus, you have to deal with it.

Wanna guess what the Irish and a lot of other people thought of the British response to the famine? Genocide.

The Irish People, if presented the opportunity, would totally and completely distance themselves from Britain in all way, shape, and form. They would not be part of this "United Republic", especially if the Pope encouraged them all to rebel (which he did). You said above that it is hardly a nation at all, and thus with rebellion all over Ireland, I would find it difficult for an army to put them down.
I originally let this slip by because I thought you would have good reasons, but the ones you have presented don't work. Either make them better, give Ireland independence, or deal with what will probably be a long and bloody rebellion.

[DGNT]

On a closely related issue...

WHAT THE HELL GENERAL PAUL?

The US is not the world police, the US is ISOLATIONIST, that means that they like to think the world outside of their borders (aside from the bits of it they want) doesnt exist. That and you are practically at war with Mexico, and you no doubt have riots in the South due to your perceived states-rights violation in announcing a ban on slavery.
The US is in no position to go gallivanting around the world saving the day.

[Muse_Of_History]

The potato famine occurred in 1845, due to an airborne fungus that got there by wind... It did NOT occur before the TL went alternate (Napoleon's Wars) and I can, quiet honestly, tell you that winds are just about the least controlled force on earth. The chances of the airborn fungus arriving on time, in the exact way, without a change in government (once again, Napoleon's France), without any change at all, due to butterflies is such utter crap. Britain, without Pax Britannica, can be quiet kind to its locals, not only that but it will be nigh unrecognizable to OTL Britain of High Culture, Master of the Earth, Rulers of the Victorian Age. (To Make Overly Fawning statements towards Victorian England)

The Potato Famine is a low-probability. There would be one eventually because that was the ONLY crop that Irish grew. In effect, you keep rolling the dice, eventually you will come up snake eyes. But it'll take awhile.

[Enigma]

Britain... No. The British tried to exterminate the Irish. There's no way the British would look fondly at the Irish, and I'll be damned before the vice versa is true. From what I understand, if the IG year is ~1856, and it started in ~1850, then you couldn't have controlled the outbreak of the Great Famine. The fact is, the British would have never helped the Irish as you're putting it.

[Muse_Of_History]

Very well... I'll send in a goddamn suppression force? Does it matter? All this damn foreign meddling is gonna ruin things for Britain... Again. BTW: Britain actually tried to pass some grain laws which would have aided the Irish, but the land holders panicked because they would lose their monopoly. Not that it mattered, eventually, the laws got passed, but it was too late, and the Irish hated the grains.

Nextly: Its so very, very, low probability the Potato Famine that I'm almost insulted that I can't change it. Look, if you want me to run GB unchanged before 1850, thats fine... I'll initiate Pax Britannica, build a bunch of ships, and crush all resistance, just like the victorians. The fact of the matter is: The british have been bitter and defeated for oh, 50 years! Thats gonna have some big effects on mentality. Universal resentment of the Crown is one of the major ones actually. Hatred of government. Maybe the elite will still hate the Irish, but a bunch of bitter defeated British with a grudge to pick with the Imperial house might well decide, "Hey. Look. People who don't like the king! Cool!" The fact of the matter is, one of the reasons why the British didn't fight it out to the bitter end with the Americans was sympathy for the Americans.

Finally: Look, if you want me to play around with a Britain that isn't totally different from Victorian Britain, I'll deal. But I'll deal by crushing YOU first with Pax Britanica, because thats what I'll need.

[DGNT]

Actually, the British did receive much credit at the end of the Napoleonic Wars, I beleive the British Grenadier Guards (whatever their regimental name is) were the second unit in line when the Russians entered Paris.
The British still one, they just didnt escape quite as unscathed as they did IRL.

As to the Potato Famine, I beleive the main issue is that you essentially nullified an important historical event which has a serious affect on another country. Without the Famine, the United States would be a different place. So, you may REDUCE the Famine slightly, but it still has to take place and a lot of Irish people still have to flee to the Land of Non-Mass Starvation.


Now, I dont claim to be an expert on British history, my area of expertise is farther East ;)), but I do know that there is, even to this day, a lot of 'bad blood' between the British and Irish. While some Brits might want to assist the Irish, maybe even enough to pass such a law, but the guys in power, as you noted, were the ones that disliked the Irish the most.

[SionEwig]

Actually, the British did receive much credit at the end of the Napoleonic Wars, I beleive the British Grenadier Guards (whatever their regimental name is) were the second unit in line when the Russians entered Paris.
The British still one, they just didnt escape quite as unscathed as they did IRL.

As to the Potato Famine, I beleive the main issue is that you essentially nullified an important historical event which has a serious affect on another country. Without the Famine, the United States would be a different place. So, you may REDUCE the Famine slightly, but it still has to take place and a lot of Irish people still have to flee to the Land of Non-Mass Starvation.


Now, I dont claim to be an expert on British history, my area of expertise is farther East ;)), but I do know that there is, even to this day, a lot of 'bad blood' between the British and Irish. While some Brits might want to assist the Irish, maybe even enough to pass such a law, but the guys in power, as you noted, were the ones that disliked the Irish the most.

Just to throw this out there, but the Potato Famine was not the ONLY reason that the Irish immigrated to North America. The availability of land for purchase/free was a very big draw for the Irish (and Scots, Germans, and other Europeans). Those who had gone over earlier, especially during the 1700s and early 1800s, had for the most part prospered (at least in comparison to those in the old country). They would send news back, and often sponser others to come over. Also there were ships captians and owners who would ship over large numbers from Europe and "sell" the cost of their passages to folks over here (thus a lot of the indenturments). So even if there wasn't a Potato Famine, there would still be a good amount of Irish (and other) immigration, unless the home countrys completely outlawed it!

[Enigma]

Just as a note, there's no way in hell that the Irish wouldn't rebel if the British started to lose power. Four hundred and fifty years of slavery, oppression, culture-murder, and attempted genocide has a profound effect on the mentality of a people. The Irish would still hate the British, and the British would still ruthlessly oppress the Irish, who, in turn, would just be incited to rebel a little more, a little harder. The only thing that stopped widespread rebellion was the fact that during WWI, the British couldn't handle fighting the Germans and the Irish, so released Ireland. Even then, nationalistic terrorists continued to bomb the hell out of Northern Ireland, which was still British and Protestant. This is the point I'm trying to get across.