PDA

View Full Version : WI the French lose the Battle of Fleurus?


Thande
November 11th, 2006, 12:06 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fleurus_%281794%29

Battle of Fleurus (1794)

The Battle of Fleurus, fought on June 26, 1794 was one of the most decisive battles in the Low Countries during the French Revolutionary Wars.

Both sides had forces numbering in the vicinity of 80,000 men and the French, under Jourdan were able to more effectively concentrate their forces in order to achieve victory against the Austrian army under Saxe-Cobourg.
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Prelude
* 2 Battle of Fleurus
* 3 Consequences
* 4 References

Prelude

After the Battle of Tourcoing (May 17-18, 1794), Jourdan was given the command of the Army of the Ardennes and four divisions of the Army of the North, about 96,000 men in total. This new group was then named the Army of the Sambre-Meuse. The new army was then given the task of capturing Charleroi.

On June 12, the French army, accompagnied and supervised by a member of the Committee of Public Safety Louis de Saint-Just, had invested the town of Charleroi with about 70,000 men. On June 16, an Austrian-Dutch force of about 43,000 men counterattacked in heavy mist and managed to inflict some 3,000 casualties on the French and drive them back over the Sambre. On June 18, Jourdan attacked again and managed to restore the investment of Charleroi. The city surrendered on June 26, just as a relieving force under Coburg arrived to raise the siege.

Battle of Fleurus

On June 26, Coburg arrived around Charleroi with 52,000 men to raise the French siege. Too late to save the city, which at that time was surrendereing, the Austrian commander split his army in to five colums and attacked the French. A French reconnaissance balloon, "l'Entreprenant", continuously informed Jourdan about Austrian movements. The Austrians managed to break through both French wings but as the center under Lefebvre held and then counterattacked, the Austrian assault petered out. Coburg neglected to press on and, uncertain of the outcome, the Austrian commander lost his nerve and fell back to Braine-l'Alleud and Waterloo, granting the French an unexpected victory.

Consequences

This victory precipitated a full Allied withdrawal from Belgium and allowed French forces to push north into the Netherlands. It saw the first military use of an aircraft, as a reconnaissance balloon on the French side.

The Battle largely invalidated the argument that continuation of the French Revolutionary Reign of Terror was necessary because of the military threat to France's very existence. Consequently, Robespierre's dictatorship was overthrown a month later.

It's the ends rather than the means that I find most interesting. Especially that last paragraph. Quite apart from the wider effects on the war re Austria and the Netherlands, would a French loss here result in Robespierre staying in power (for longer)?

fhaessig
November 12th, 2006, 11:16 AM
Since no one seems to get this one, I'll give it a try.

Caveat : I usually stay away from french revolution PoD because it is a very volatile period and I don't quite know enough to predict all butterflies.

So, let's suppose that with a fleurus loss, the coalition armies are back on french soil.

So, The threat of devastation is used by the Montagne to stay in power in Paris ( OTL, it was a close-run thing ).

Given that the political plays have been going for some time, a Montagne victory means that the moderates and financiers get purged.

OTOH, people linked to Robespierre will go up. Among them, a certain youg corsican lieutenant.....

That will have some interesting repercution when Robespierre falls ( as he will ), unless Napoleon gets away from this patronage.

Now the question who will get command armies to defend the North. Napoleon is still too junior, but he may get some commands, if not commander in chief. What about Kleber? The old Lion may save France. That may have some interesting repercussions.

Thande
November 12th, 2006, 11:50 AM
Since no one seems to get this one, I'll give it a try.

Caveat : I usually stay away from french revolution PoD because it is a very volatile period and I don't quite know enough to predict all butterflies.

I feel the same way, which is a pity because the early Revolutionary Wars (as opposed to the Napoleonic) seem to be an untapped seam for AHs.


So, The threat of devastation is used by the Montagne to stay in power in Paris ( OTL, it was a close-run thing ).

Given that the political plays have been going for some time, a Montagne victory means that the moderates and financiers get purged.

OTOH, people linked to Robespierre will go up. Among them, a certain youg corsican lieutenant.....

That will have some interesting repercution when Robespierre falls ( as he will ), unless Napoleon gets away from this patronage.
What else might result in the fall of Robespierre in the future? Simply the same self fulfilling prophecy, i.e. when France starts becoming victorious against the coalition on foreign soil, the people no longer tolerate the Terror?

fhaessig
November 12th, 2006, 01:36 PM
What else might result in the fall of Robespierre in the future? Simply the same self fulfilling prophecy, i.e. when France starts becoming victorious against the coalition on foreign soil, the people no longer tolerate the Terror?

That, and the facts that first Robespierre just wasn't a politician and didn't understand when flexibility was required and second that 'the incorruptible' wasn't really insterested in knowing whether his objectives were acceptable to the people or not and couldn't understand the need to wait sometime.

Remember his saying 'I don't believe revolution is ended'.

At one time, the people of Paris will have enough with the restrictions and this will overcome Robespierre's popularity. Robespierre's political ennemies ( and he will always made then at the same rate he had them guillotined ) will wait for this.

I cannot think of any post-1791 PoD which would have Robespierre surviving loss of political power; he was tainted by the Terror.