View Full Version : Unification of Anglo-Pacific Nations
January 22nd, 2004, 02:36 AM
Is there anyway that the nations of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the United States could be unified into a single independent nation/empire, completely free of British control?
I'd prefer it if: A) the nation is either a republic or a hereditary empire, B) the nation was complete by 1850, C) the Americans did the colonization of Australia and New Zealand, and D) the entire republic/empire was relatively peaceful (i.e. no major secessionist groups, no terrorist groups, etc.).
January 22nd, 2004, 02:41 AM
jesus christ! that requires ASBs! I mena I can make _Al-Andalus_ plausibly reapper with a POD of 1934 but I can't see any way to get what you want without invoking ASBs...
January 22nd, 2004, 04:24 AM
Here's an attempt, and I stress the word attempt. It probably has holes in it big enough to drive a tank thru:
1600s: Australia is discovered early in the century. Many European nations lay claim to it, but no one really tries to enforce their claims. With the conclusion of the 30 Year's War, a surviving Gustavus Adolphus forges an alliance with Cromwell's England. (We have seen in other works :) that Gustavus is perhaps capable of getting along with those opposed to the monarchy.) The alliance is one of mutual support; Gustavus needs help in solidifying his hold in northern Germany and against Russia; Cromwell needs 'anti-Papist' allies on the continent to offset France and Spain.
The so-called 'North Sea Alliance' authors the Pacific Accord - a treaty guaranteeing the fair division of Australia and all other Pacific discoveries. France, Spain, and even the Dutch all sign the Accord, hoping to placate each other with what they consider a meaningless piece of paper. After all, who wants a few little islands and a continent-sized desert?
1700s: Cromwellian Britain doesn't do as well against France here. There is something similar to the 7 Year's War, which the French emerge from mostly victorious, especially in India). Butterflies give the American revolutionaries (which rebel over religious differences) a little more oomph in their victory. New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland become US states, while Labrador is absorbed by Quebec. Without as much British domination in Canada, more and more Tories flee to South Africa and South America. With only token trading colonies in Australia as of 1800, most of the British 'undesirables' who would have been sent there OTL instead migrate to Africa and Patagonia (where the Brits are trying to create a new dominion).
1800s: British Republican propaganda and French bankruptcy after the ARW cause the overthrow of the French monarcy and the rise of a 'Napoleon' figure, who embroils Europe in a couple decades of war. By 1820, 2 major European forces arise: a coalition of Britain, Sweden, and Russia; and a French 'empire' consisting of France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, and lower Germany.
Desperate for funds, the Brit coalition gives the US gov't 'ownership' of Australia in direct contravention of the Pacific Accord, in return for $$$. Unwilling to risk another devastating war, the French do nothing.
I don't have the energy to go any farther, but I forsee a much more rapid growth of the 'US' in this TL. They have not just one, but two continents to practice a manifest destiny on. By 1850, the 'US' could conceivably control North America (maybe they buy the rest of Canada from an ailing Cromwellian republic) solidly, and Australia and NZ on paper, with settlers on the way...
January 22nd, 2004, 05:10 PM
The freed slaves of Tory forces are sent to Australia to keep them out of Patriot hands and to avoid encouraging other slaves to resist or revolt, beginning in 1775. After a longer Revolutionary war that ends with the conquest of Canada in 1785, big fleets of Tories rapidly settle Australia expanding the settlements that were begun ten years earlier.
Figure that you can double the number of people in a colony if you raise enough food, so 100, 200, 400, 800, 1,600, 3,200, 6,400, 12,800, 25,600, 51,200, 102,400, and that's about as many people as all the ships in the world could move in 1785!
I had a first fleet of 100 colonists because the first few years in Australia were undercapitalized and they damn near starved. Not to mention the Colonial board idiots didn't bring dry climate crops or livestock, or people with any experience farming, either. A bunch of freed slaves from Georgia and South Carolina would have made a better go of it from Sydney to Brisbane. The later colonists would have provided the urban labor force and the Tasmanian, South Australian, and Victorian settlers. The climate there isn't so warm and dry. The result is more settlers, faster, especially with Canada in American hands.
Then in WWI the Germans win and demand Australia as an indemnity, and the US allies with the UK and ANZ and tells the Germans and their allies that Europe is finished as a colonizing power With the two biggest fleets in the world they make it stick. When the Germans get tired of trying to reconquer the African and Asian colonies with blockade runners and makes peace the two Anglican countries merge to make sure that the Germans/Europeans can't divide them and defeat them in detail.
January 22nd, 2004, 05:25 PM
How about this for a more recent POD? - highly unlikely by at least possible.
Edward does not abdicate the throne. Great Britain loses the 1939-1941 European War. Edward remains in England as a figurehead for the Germans, but the Churchill government flees to Canada with the bulk of the Royal Navy, RAF, and establishes a government in exile. England is incorporated into the Nazi European economic and imperial framework. The Churchill govt is recognized by the Dominions (Canada, Australia, NZ) as the "real" head of the British Empire, but little hope is given to reclaiming Britain itself. Either thru later war or cold war between a US/Commonwealth alliance and Nazi Europe, the English-Speaking Alliance develops into a federation.
I know this doesn't address the original guidelines, but I don't see how you can realistically do it prior to 1850 without England as the lead force.
January 22nd, 2004, 05:58 PM
For this to happen without something ASB it would require several divergenes
1] Earlier Discovery of Australia
2] Something similar (but not the same) to the Meiji Restoration happens in early 18th century Japan. Result is a rapidly modernizing expansionist Japan.
In itself this could be interesting. Imagine the Enlightenment traveling to Japan. Perhaps Deism becomes popular in Japan mixing a little with Zen and NeoConfucianism.
3] To counter a growing Japanese preesence in the Pacific, England encourages the colonization of Australia.
4] France wins a Big Naval Battle in a war with England (some people will claim this is ASB). France is allied with Japan. The French take control of most of North America while Australia is split between Japan and France.
5] There is a revolt at some point by the conquered English speaking colonies against both France and Japan. England regains command of the seas and aids the revolution but the former colonies are disinterested in returning to British rule.
6] A weak Confederation iis formed between the liberated colonies--mostly a lasting military alliance with some trade clauses as well--but eventually it grows into something stronger.
January 22nd, 2004, 06:57 PM
I agree with Zoomar, if we count widespread mobility between North America and Australia as colonization we could make a 20th century POD that gets us here.
Example, Russia doesn't become communist, joins a less anti-semetic Germany in a war with England and France. Germany develops a bomb, drops it on England, England surrenders, but the Royals escape to Canada. The Commonwealth, with the exception of India which declares its independence, turns to the USA for support.
There is a long drawn out battle for the Pacific which eventually becomes slightly nuclear.
After the War, with England still in German / Russian hands, the English speaking Commonwealth becomes more integrated into the American economic and cultural sphere. Also, after demobilization, many thousands of american troops settle in Australia / New Zealand, while an almost equal number settle in the US.
Throughout the 50's to the 70's millions of Australians / NZ are educated in the States and Canada.
1960, Canada admitted to the US as a state after a small constitutional amendment allowing the british royals to keep their titles and 'reign (but not rule) over the commonwealth.
Faced with growing (Chinese, Indonesian, or Indian) powerin the Pacific, both Australia and NZ also seek admission to the Union.
By 1990's the Royal family, although it formally reigns only over the old Commonwealth, is seen as an American Royal Family.
January 22nd, 2004, 07:15 PM
Any chance of Australia being discovered later? Or at least claimed later (as in, late enough that the Americans could do it)?
January 23rd, 2004, 01:21 AM
i really can't see anyway it could have happened before world war 2. if britain had been invaded then it's possible that canada, australia and new zealand would have gotten a hell of a lot closer to the united states. and if the former king had never abdicated and stayed in london after the defeat, it's possible they would willingly give up the monarchy and maybe even petition for statehood of the US. It's also possible that ireland would've joined as we were still a kingdom until 1949 and no doubt wouldn't have liked being so close to the NAZIs without a free Britain between us and the continent.
January 23rd, 2004, 01:26 AM
In the late 1790s, Britain falls to the armies of Revolutionary France, and America seizes the chance and conquers Canada. When Napoleon comes to power, he shows a hankering for Quebec and a strong alliance with the United States. Jefferson grants him them, with the added concessions of Louisiana and all former British claims in the Pacific.
Not very good, but only thing I could come up with.
January 23rd, 2004, 03:36 AM
How about the death of James Cook in 1769?
On his way to Australia (for the first time) to claim the continent for Great Britain, James Cook's ship, the ENDEAVOUR, sinks off Cape Horn. This delays the colonization of Australia between 10 to 15 years as James Cook not only claimed the continent, but initiated the colonization. The American Revolution progresses as in OTL. Butterflies change the name of the US to the "American Republic of Columbia" or ARC (which will make it easier later on, just go with the name).
The Napoleonic Wars commence as in OTL. The colonization of Australia still has not begun, however. A British explorer had just prepared to plant a British flag on the continent when the Wars begin. ARC manages to purchase Louisiana as in OTL. In 1805, American whalers found the first settlement on the Australian continent at New London (after the city in Connecticut) [Melbourne], named after a town in eastern Long Island. The Americans stake a claim to the Australian continent. The British protest but at the moment cannot fo much about it as they are at war with France. In 1812, American whalers found Southampton [Wellington, NZ] and lay claim to that too. That same year, due to a combination of factors, including the colonization of Australia and New Zealand, Great Britain and the ARC go to war. End result: ARC seizure of Canada due to increased naval support from a larger navy developed to travel the oceans to Australia and New Zealand. British recognize ARC dominance over Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Very rough. Probably Impraubible. Possibly Impossible.
January 23rd, 2004, 04:10 AM
No Revolutionary War in the States. British North America grows up as a single nation encompassing OTL's USA and Canada. As an economic giant it becomes more and more a centre of political power within the British Empire.
In contrast, the UK itself is afflicted by nationalism. Ireland's War of Independence incites similar movements in Scotland and Wales. England becomes a republic. North America remains loyal to the crown and provides refuge when the royal family flees to exile. They are familiar and well-loved figures here where they have maintained an often used summer residence in Ontario at Niagara Falls and a winter residence in Florida. The North American Parliament in New York becomes the new seat of empire.
In Europe a long-frustrated France now has a free hand as the English can no longer meddle there. The French turn eastward to begin what will become an exhausting, epic struggle with Russia for control of Europe. They don't completely forget their old nemesis and do what they can to keep the UK Balkanized. But by and large the nations of Europe remain embroiled in their own conflict, which will last for decades.
North Americans have no interest in an old Europe in flames. The death of the King and the crowning of a new Queen in New York is a powerful symbol of transition. In due course, the new heir to the throne is born here as well, and grows up as a North American without ever having seen England.
North America is emerging as the world's new centre of power. Now, in addition to their own rich continent and it's frontiers, they find themselves as inheritors of England's far-flung empire. The energy that drove them to explore and develop North America now has new outlets.
Louisiana is easy pickings for the North Americans as France's attentions are diverted elsewhere. Similarly, Spain's New World possessions find new masters or see new independent nations emerge. Cuba and other Spanish colonies in the Caribbean come into the North American fold.
Old World Royalists flee England as refugees to North America and other parts of the old empire. Some oppourtunistic North Americans leave to stake claims in Australia and New Zealand.
North America's own experiences as a one time colony has taught lessons of governance that are now extended to the rest of the empire. Mutual respect and continued loyalty to the crown lead to the evolution of a new Commonwealth. Regional or national Parliaments convene regularly as equals in a supra-Parliament in New York.
The Commonwealth disdains to sully itself in Europe's affairs and keeps the old ruined continent at arms length, although eventually England's restored Parliament joins the others at New York.
January 25th, 2004, 01:11 AM
Halifax surrenders to Hitler. Germany sends occupation troops. Russia invades in June of 1940, just after the Germans occupy Britain. The Russians conquer Germany up to the Rhine, and then the Germans deport the English, Scots, Welsh, and Irish to America, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, and form an alliance with the Union Romance of France, Italy, Spain, and Portugal, with a border with Russia at the Alps and the Rhine.
January 25th, 2004, 06:35 AM
I really liked Wiggy's North American Empire. That's a kick-ass idea.
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