European Islands

[Namor]

First of all, this is a great board lyout. Second, I realize that my topic is too ASBish to be here but it's a new board so it's kind of slow yet.
What if say around A.D.(pick your time) suddenly, in many areas of Europe earth collapses. When everything is back to normal again, people start to notice how things have changed. Italia is an island now with everything north of Po river underwater. So is France, which got itself a shiny new moat like English have. In the east, great river Volga has become a coastline to a sea which extends to about Urals and Scandinavia is also cut off from mainland Europe.
What will be consequences of this? Take one single event and examine how history would have been different if changes described above happened right before that event? for example, would France been unconqurable to Hitler it a moat appeared before WW2? Would Mongols still be able to devastate Rus? You get the idea, pick as many events as possible and examine the consequences of this POD on that event.

[Ilta]

I'll second that about the new layout. I can feel the power coursing through my... keyboard.

Yes, it's total ASB, but it's fun and this forum isn't moving much yet, so I'll bite.

I'll go with your proposed pre-WWII scenario. Hitler would be all but unable to invade France, for the exact same reasons as those against the possibility of a successful invasion of Britain IOTL. He has no means of sea transport, and his entire army is designed to engage in superquick air/land battles (blitzkreigs); it is most definitely not a sea-based invasionary force. And although the French Navy was hardly the quality of the British Navy, they would still be able to shoot any invasion out of the water with relative ease. Hitler would be foolish to invade.

HOWEVER, he doesn't really HAVE to invade. France wanted to avoid a war as much as possible, and Britain along with her. If Hitler only moves East, the rest of Europe wouldn't lift a finger. Hitler turns all his power to Poland and Eastern Europe, soon invading the USSR (or the half that's still attached to Europe, hehe). With Germany's full pre-war force brought to bear against one front, no aid from the US, and no way to get its Siberian arms to that front (trains don't work well underwater), the Western USSR quickly crumbles. Any soviet leaders lucky enough to escape Moscow lead a government in exile out of some unspellable Siberian town.

At the same time, Hitler also sweeps south with some lesser part of his army, taking Greece, Serbia, etc. When he's done with Western Russia, that army goes south too, and takes Turkey, then the Middle East, before turning west and taking North Africa. At each stage, Britain, France, and the US refuse to involve themselves, convinced that Hitler will be satisfied with his current gains.

By this time, however, Hitler will have built up a proper navy, with his eventual sights set on France and Britain (Spain and Italy, of course, will make fantastic fascist vassal states, as was the plan IOTL). Sooner rather than later, he invades from anywhere/everywhere across the Medditeranian -- since he's all but conquered the whole thing -- and takes Western Europe. At this point he's satisfied to consolidate his gains and turn the United Reich into a burocratic-fascist mega-state. Eventually, he will take the entire world.

[basileus]

*under water* blllblllllblllll!....

[Amerigo Vespucci]

You've just made pretty much every country in Europe a naval power, really. That means that there's a much better chance for the rest of the world to be opened to exploration and settlement, as there's much more experience literally floating around out there. The Roman Empire will have a much easier time securing its conquests, as there won't be a massive flood of barbarian invaders coming from the German settlements. Of course, those barbarians may not even have to leave Germany, as there won't be any pressure from the east, thanks to that Caspian inlet. That may lead to a more pacifistic Europe, as there won't be the hordes from the East to necessitate a large military presence with which to defend European homes.

[Paul Spring]

Like Amerigo said, you could easily have several kingdoms in Europe becoming like Great Britain in OTL, where the navy was the most important of the military services and the army was secondary.

The strait in OTL eastern France will allow Northern Europe to be strongly connected by trade to the Mediterranean much earlier than OTL. The island of Italy might become the most prosperous trade hub in the world, its coastlines ringed with dozens of mercantile republics handling trade between different parts of Europe as well as northern Africa and western Asia.

It's still possible for tribes from the east to get into Europe, but they would have to go south of OTL Caspian Sea, which is the southern end of an enormous inlet of the Arctic Ocean here, and then either go north across the Caucasus onto the western steppes or move across Asia Minor and then across the Bosphorus into the Balkans. There will still be some pressure on Europe from the east at times, but there won't be much, and large parts of western Europe will be immune to that anyways.

On the other hand, the presence of many more water barriers could greatly slow down the spread of early technologies (such as agriculture, domesticated animals, and metalworking) into Europe from the Middle East. Separation from the Asian steppes could mean much later introduction of horses. Perhaps by the height of the Roman Empire in OTL, this timeline's Europe is still mostly a collection of tribes, chiefdoms, and relatively small trading towns in some coastal areas, and it is just seriously getting into the iron age while the Middle East, India, and China are the only places that have full-blown state structures, large cities, widespread use of writing, and more specialized economies.

[Straha]

Celtland Uber alles

[demonkangaroo]

also, the austro-hungarian empire would never exist. the screaming hordes of cen. aisian barbarians would either (a. trade there horses for boats and go raiding a la viking, or,(b. turn round and go home. I also see a norse empire.

[Max Sinister]

Three and a half years, that's a resurrection...

I fear Straha and some other posters can't answer you, since they are banned or long gone.

And this is ASB. Thread moved.

[birdy]

well if it happened now or in recent history, Rotterdam would be even more important as a port- goods to and from France/Spain/Portugal having to come by sea.

not much of a contrubution, just trying to increase my post count:D

or if it happened in prehistory, Britain and maybe France/Iberia wont have the range of wildlife they have OTL if the sea cuts of possible migration routes before certain species can get there.

[Caesar]

Wow, this is an old thread.

[Alcuin]

or if it happened in prehistory, Britain and maybe France/Iberia wont have the range of wildlife they have OTL if the sea cuts of possible migration routes before certain species can get there.

No Roman Empire, means no bunny rabbits in Britain.

[demonkangaroo]

a phonician or greek empire might be plausible. i would say a venician empire as well... buuut no huns no venice. no venice no honey moons for american and jappanese people:eek:*smilly says nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo* no ottomans, no seljuks either. no turks in general. no crusade. i can't really see islam being a real threat to euro. as well. arabs wer'nt good sea farerers. and india might be reached earlier. more sea people, more ship technology, = far east reached faster!!! colonies as early as 1250s probably. little ice age has more effect. everyones a republic by 1500

[Max Sinister]

Why that? The way from Arabia to Europe isn't blocked by the sea.

[demonkangaroo]

Why that? The way from Arabia to Europe isn't blocked by the sea.
damn you! you un covered my evil plot to rule this alternate... uh, uh, uh no, just kidding:p. but theres no way that they could do what they did IOT they can invade spain and russia, but every one would have a sufficient coast gaurd to pwn them.

[demonkangaroo]

you cant see the map. sorry, ur right. they could do almost exactly what they did. but the phonician empire would pwn them. could I use thise in a time line?:o

[Flocculencio]

arabs wer'nt good sea farerers.

What? Arabs were excellent seafarers- they traded down the East African coast all the way to Zanzibar and across the Indian Ocean all the way to the South China Sea. How else do you think the Malay world was converted to Islam? Arab traders brought Islam to South India and then they, along with South Indian traders brought it to SE Asia.

Also, I don't see how improved seafaring technology leads to colonies earlier on. In fact, now Western Europe is more accessible to the trade routes from the East since the ports on the Caspian Sea are now directly connected to Western Europe through the Baltic. There may well be less impetus to circumnavigate Africa and go exploring further in this world.

[demonkangaroo]

really? must a been mongols I was thinkin of.
heres a politcal map

[Flocculencio]

really? must a been mongols I was thinkin of.
heres a politcal map

Re Iberia- I'm not sure about that border in Northern France. There don't seem to be any real natural borders there making it less likely for that to be a stable border.

[demonkangaroo]

heres a new political map. the celtia border is a river now!