Modern-Day Catholic Schism

[MerryPrankster]

What might be required for a modern large-scale schism in the Catholic Church a la the medieval Great Schism?

Post-Reformation, there was the defection of "Old Catholics" who rejected papal infallibility (I think they're part of the Anglican Communion now), while some stubbornly reject Vatican II (incl. Mel Gibson). However, those are very small-scale and don't involve rival Popes.

Is Vatican II a good POD? Or perhaps an attempt to remove the Pope for not doing enough about the Holocaust? Or another Papal retirement (there's been only one so far, and supposedly he was persuaded by someone who wanted to be Pope next)? Anyone have any other ideas?

What effects might this have?

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

There is a high likelihood of a Schism if the next Pope is as conservative as JPII. The American church could very well go its own way if some of the retrograde social policies of the Church are not modified. So, as a POD, I propose that upon JPII's death, JPIII carries on in the same direction with (relatively) youthful vigor, causing the American Catholic Church to break off. Since the US is responsible for a giant proportion of the Churchs' income, this is a very serious thing. The Schismatic Cardinals hold a conclave and elect one of their number American Pope.

[Kuralyov]

Post-WWII, the Communists stage a revolution and create an Italian People's Republic. The Pope dies in the conflict, and afterwards, when Catholics worldwide convene to decide who the new Pope should be, they split along regional lines or however it is the Catholic Church is orghanized (I'm not Catholic, does it show?)

I wonder how an 'American Pope' would be viewed. Since only American Catholics would split, I'm sure it would get invovled into a huge state-religion dispute. Perhaps several other American Christians sects, like American Anglicans, split and merge into them, forming a truly American Church?

[Tom_B]

Don't see any mechanism by which dissatisfaction about Pius XII's handling of the Holocaust leads to a schism.

It is possible that if Archbishop Lefebvre took a sedevacantist position and declared himself as Pope Suburban I or whatever his group would've made more of dent but not a lot more.

Let's try 1903 as a POD. When Leo XIII died the leading candidate at the conclave was Cardinal Rampolla. He apparently was something of a progressive. The Austrians exercised a veto over his candidacy--which was their right. They later claimed that Rampolla was a Mason, but it could well be because he was a progressive (or merely because he was rumored to be one) they simply assumed he was a Mason. The conclave then turns to Cardinal Sarto who becomes the reactionary Saint (sic) Pius X.

Let us assume that the conclave decides to reject the Austrian veto and elects Rampolla which becomes Leo XIV. He turns out to be a very progressive Pope. He inistitutes liturgical reform, radically reforms the Code of Canon law, and espouses a very new sounding theology in his encyclicals. He might for instance allow for the possibility that nonCatholics don't always go to Hell (shocking!!!).

The reactionary elements in the Church are outraged and some cardinals meet and decide the election was invalid due to the veto and maybe also the allegation that the Pope was a Mason is aired (recall the allegedly progressive Leo XII believed and supported leo Taxil in his fabrications).

The reactionary element defies the Pope holds a new enclave and elects an AntiPope.

Tom

[DominusNovus]

How about you expand upon the pedophile priest problem? The Americans seem much more upset about it than the Europeans (I've heard that most European Catholics are absolutely against the idea of allowing priest to marry, while most American Catholics don't really see any reason why they can't) . Drive further wedges between them (not too hard) and you could have a split betwee the two groups.

[Tom_B]

Do not see a high level schism emerging from the American Church when Cardinal Dionigi Tettramanzi (sp) become JPIII and pursues the same policies as JPII with less ego and pedantry. What could happen at some point is the auxiliary bishop of the Diocese of Gator Hollow decides the Church is not liberal enough for him and with the support of a big chunk of Voice of the Faithful announces on Larry King the formation of the Democratic Catholic Church with some convoluted structure wherein lay representatives share in policy decisions--including theological ones--with the clergy. This is a low level schism.

[DuQuense]

IIRC there is a ongoing slow schism occurring over the High Latin-local lanuage dispute

[Max Sinister]

Yesterday I read in the newspaper that six in ten Irish people lost faith in the Catholic church (church != religion), because of the pedophiles. And in Germany and Austria many Catholics want that women can become priests and other reforms, but the pope and cardinal Ratzinger are still against...

I created a TL where there are some later schisms in the 19th century, but this TL has a very early POD, so that doesn't really count...

[tom]

You do realize that the next Pope will be almost certainly a Cardinal choosen by John Paul II, don't you?

[MerryPrankster]

"Yesterday I read in the newspaper that six in ten Irish people lost faith in the Catholic church (church != religion), because of the pedophiles"

There were pedophile priests in Ireland? I thought that the Irish church lost credibility b/c of their holding teen girls captive in laundries (the movie The Magdalene Sisters deals with this).

"I created a TL where there are some later schisms in the 19th century, but this TL has a very early POD, so that doesn't really count..."

Feel free to include those. I mentioned "The Old Catholics" who left the church in the late 1800s, didn't I?

"IIRC there is a ongoing slow schism occurring over the High Latin-local lanuage dispute"

I thought Vatican II decided the issue in favor of the local language. I've been to services with Catholic relatives and I've only heard Latin used a little bit.

[tom]

Some Catholics go to Latin Trinidentine (sp?) Masses, against Church commands.

[Max Sinister]

@Matt: I know the movie too, but the article explicitly said that it was because of the pedophiles. And it also said that someone in Ireland claims that a high percentage of Irish kids has been abused by priests sometimes in the past. I forgot the number, but it had two digits (in percent!).

[Tom_B]

Some Catholics go to Latin Trinidentine (sp?) Masses, against Church commands.

There is a common misunderstanding here. The Tridentine Mass is not forbidden. The Society of St. Pius X formed by the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre rejected the Second Vatican Council mostly because what it said about religious liberty was viewed as grave heresy by Lefebvre. They celebrated Mass according to the Tridentine formula because retarded lay Catholics like Mel Gibson get all worked up over Latin. In order to counter the Society of St. Pius X, JPII started an order of priests that says Mass according to the Tridentine form. These are called Indult Masses and it's perfectly OK for Catholics to attend them.

[Othniel]

There is a high likelihood of a Schism if the next Pope is as conservative as JPII. The American church could very well go its own way if some of the retrograde social policies of the Church are not modified. So, as a POD, I propose that upon JPII's death, JPIII carries on in the same direction with (relatively) youthful vigor, causing the American Catholic Church to break off. Since the US is responsible for a giant proportion of the Churchs' income, this is a very serious thing. The Schismatic Cardinals hold a conclave and elect one of their number American Pope.
Still stand by those views Abdul?

[MerryPrankster]

Still stand by those views Abdul?

Consider Ratzinger used to run the Inquisition (well, what used to be the Inquisition) and liked to come down on Church dissidents, his prediction of an American Catholic split with the Vatican might yet come to pass.

[Leo Caesius]

Consider Ratzinger used to run the Inquisition (well, what used to be the Inquisition) and liked to come down on Church dissidents, his prediction of an American Catholic split with the Vatican might yet come to pass.He's threatening to crack some skulls over the recent decision in Spain. He might very well do the same in Massachusetts. I very much doubt though that a schism would come about over something like same-sex marriage, although the priests that he kicks out will probably migrate to other denominations (particularly, it seems to me, Episcopalianism).

[Othniel]

He's threatening to crack some skulls over the recent decision in Spain. He might very well do the same in Massachusetts. I very much doubt though that a schism would come about over something like same-sex marriage, although the priests that he kicks out will probably migrate to other denominations (particularly, it seems to me, Episcopalianism).
Which might cause a schism in the Anglican Chruch. We had several articles on that possiblity.

[Grimm Reaper]

I doubt there can be a schism at this time, and certainly not based on the American cardinals. They're too dependent on the Pope for job assignments in the event the various alarming criminal investigations get too close to home for their comfort. :(

[eschaton]

The most interesting what if schism for me would be if 'left catholicism' split off rather than being purged and silenced as it had been in the 1980s. A schismatic liberationist pope would be a beautiful thing.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Still stand by those views Abdul?

Nope, not in the slightest. Amazing what a difference a year can make. Ten years ago there was serious talk about a schism due to the ultra-conservative positions held by JPII and his ideologist Ratzinger (abortion, contraception, the role of women, etc), but the unbelievable swing to the right makes JPII look downright hippyish. I wouldn't be surprised if they win the fight against contraception at this point. Just a few years ago the GOP would have had its head served to it on a platter over the Schiavo case.

I think there is actually a better chance of a right wing-schism than a leftist one.

[wkwillis]

The Catholic Church in America is broke. Their property is only protected from seizure by the pedophile victims because the Catholic politicians are still trying to ignore the pope and his religous nuttiness. If the pope excommunicates them because of their support for birth control and abortion, then the Catholic politicians could withdraw that protection and let the juries rule.
The Catholic Church would split in America into the three quarters of Catholics that are really Unitarians and the one fourth that are really Baptists. This would happen very quickly as people chose up sides.
The churchs and schools would be purchased by the American Catholic Church because they have the money and they don't have all those elderly priests, monks, and nuns to support. We wind up with lay deacons running the churches and married women priests officiating at mass.
This could happen over the next year. It probably won't because the Pope is not stupid, but if he has a stroke...

[horticultureandmelodrama]

Since the largest Catholic populations in the world are in Latin America and Africa, its likely that if the Church splits it will be in these areas. Perhaps Liberation Theology becomes a more powerful movement within the Church, the South Amercian Church can break off and under a like minded Pope play an even more powerful role in Latin America. One would probably see more resistance to right wing dictorships.

[Leo Caesius]

Benedict XVI now finds himself at the center of the priest pedophilia scandal, in which he held a very important role (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1469055,00.html):
Pope Benedict XVI faced claims last night he had 'obstructed justice' after it emerged he issued an order ensuring the church's investigations into child sex abuse claims be carried out in secret.

The order was made in a confidential letter, obtained by The Observer, which was sent to every Catholic bishop in May 2001.

It asserted the church's right to hold its inquiries behind closed doors and keep the evidence confidential for up to 10 years after the victims reached adulthood. The letter was signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was elected as John Paul II's successor last week.

Lawyers acting for abuse victims claim it was designed to prevent the allegations from becoming public knowledge or being investigated by the police. They accuse Ratzinger of committing a 'clear obstruction of justice'.The last time the American Catholics discussed schism was over this very issue. If anything pushes the buttons of American Catholics, it is this issue. It appears now that Benedict XVI was more deeply involved in protecting the priests from justice than anyone had previously imagined. If anything could lead to a schism in the American Catholic Church, this would be it, I think.