A new Carthage?

[Burton K Wheeler]

What if, some point after the Second Punic War, a few thousand Carthaginians made a settlement beyond the Pillars of Herakles? Handwaving aside the exact conditions in Carthage that would lead to this, let's assume that they're fanatically anti-Roman and break off ties with Carthage itself.
1. Where would this settlement be most likely? I'm leaning towards the Canaries. What resources do the Canaries have, and how would a settlement there look?
2. Where would they trade? Along their traditional routes to Britain and the Baltic? What would happen between them and Rome as a result?
3. I've seen a couple "Carthaginians settle the Caribbean" scenarios, but no really detailed ones. How plausible is this?
4. What other colonies might the Punic settlers found? I assume this, like most of these questions

[Jammy]

Sunbird by wilbur smith covers a story like this

[Tocomocho]

The Canaries are very small and have not permanent sources of water. The Cartaghinians could settle better around Senegal or the Gulf of Guinea, both zones were explored by Hannon.

[Michael B]

The Canaries are very small and have not permanent sources of water. The Cartaghinians could settle better around Senegal or the Gulf of Guinea, both zones were explored by Hannon.
Or they could go north and carve out some space from Gaul, Britannia or Hibernia. Then when that upstart Julius Ceasar invades Gaul, they give him a Hannibal of thrashing.

[Max Sinister]

Celts organized by Carthaginians... that sounds like a good idea...

[Ran Exilis]

That already happened in OTL.
A significant part of Hannibal's legions consisted of Celts and Celtiberians,
and especially in the Carthagian colonies in Iberia there were a lot of Celtic troops and tribes fighting for Carthage.

And that didn't stop the Romans...

An alliance of Carthage with the Gauls could possibly put an end to Roman expansionism and a Carthagian victory over Rome, and only at a point in time before the first destruction of Carthage.

And even then I'm not sure wether the Romans would be defeated in a war againest such an alliance...

[Ran Exilis]

The Canaries are very small and have not permanent sources of water. The Cartaghinians could settle better around Senegal or the Gulf of Guinea, both zones were explored by Hannon.

This is pretty much the same as in the scenario of the ATL I'm writing now.

In that TL, the Carthagians establish a number of cities west of Gibraltar.
Just before and right after the fall of Carthage, many Carthagian refugees flock to these cities to escape the Romans.

In the period between the first of these settlements and the fall of Carthage is about 100 to 150 years, and these cities have established a number of outpost across the West-African coast in that period.

These cities experience a strong growth and development due to the influx of Carthagians from Carthage, and these cities build and maintain a trade network that stretches from the southern coast of West-Africa to England, Ireland and even Scandinavia, yet they pretty much stay away from the Mediterranian after the fall of Carthage.

I'm also thinking of adding a few expeditions to the Caribbean and Brazil by these Carthagians...

In my scenario, the northernmost African cities (in what is modern OTL Morocco) briefly subject to official Roman rule as part of Roman Mauritania. Yet because the Romans fail to control Mauritania for long, these cities remain fairly independant.

And in my scenario, Christianization doesn't take place under Roman influences, but only begins under later Visigothic and Celtic (the Britain-Ireland connection) influence.

In my scenario, these Carthagians (or West-Punics) begin to convert to Christianity from about the 7th or 8th century on. They develop their own church that is mainly based on the Celtic Church, with some Arian Vandal and Visigothic, as well as Donatist and a few small Roman influences. Though unlike the Celtic Church, this Carthagian Church is not absorbed by the Roman Catholic Church.

[Smaug]

I like anything that gets disease, horses, ironworking, and a strong trade network to the New World. Most importantly the diseases and the iron, grain would be awesome too. Just sayin

[Burton K Wheeler]

I like anything that gets disease, horses, ironworking, and a strong trade network to the New World. Most importantly the diseases and the iron, grain would be awesome too. Just sayin

Which is one of the purposes of the Carthaginian settlement. I'm thinking of having them initially go to the Canaries, following the old trade routes, which will include a small settlement in Ireland, which has the effect of stimulating Irish sea trading just a little more (and of course, stimulating discovery of the Northeast of the American continent sooner). Eventually, Roman pressure and the limitations of the Canaries lead them to settle in Africa (I'm thinking the island in the mouth of the Gambia River which was a Danish, then British, trading post). Cape Verde was also uninhabited at the time.
My knowledge of Africa at the time is rather limited, but the Bantu expansion was just beginning, IIRC. I wonder just what effect Carthaginian technology would have on the patterns of settlement in Southern Africa.

[Ran Exilis]

Southern Africa wasn't inhabited by Bantu peoples until at most 500 years ago...
Before that, all the inhabitants of southern Africa (think of Namibia, South-Africa
and parts of Angola, Zimbabwe and Mozambique) were solely inhabited by the native Khoisan.

So any Carthagian influence on local people would be on the native Khoisanid peoples,
which could result in a quite interesting scenario, by the way...

Imagine, a technologically developed Khoisan-civilisation...

[President Ledyard]

I really like the idea, but it seems like you would have to consider just how treacherous the West African coast is for navigation and what sort of effect that would have on any trading by beyond-the-pillars Carthaginian exiles.

[Dave Howery]

The Canaries are very small and have not permanent sources of water. The Cartaghinians could settle better around Senegal or the Gulf of Guinea, both zones were explored by Hannon.

no permanent fresh water? How did the Guanches survive?

[Tocomocho]

no permanent fresh water? How did the Guanches survive?

Mostly rain.

[IndigoYeti]

Or they could go north and carve out some space from Gaul, Britannia or Hibernia. Then when that upstart Julius Ceasar invades Gaul, they give him a Hannibal of thrashing.

A new Carthaginian empire centered in Ireland would be cool. But Carthage and Ireland have very different climates, so they'd have to learn to grow new crops. And would they want to go all the way up there? To an island considered to be on the edge of the world?

[Xen]

Heres a suggestion, the Carthaginians were expert sailors, what if they managed to make it to the America's some how? Perhaps theres a storm that blows them off course and they end up somewhere in say Florida.

[Michael B]

But Carthage and Ireland have very different climates, so they'd have to learn to grow new crops. And would they want to go all the way up there? To an island considered to be on the edge of the world?
Assume that they land first in Cornwall northern Gaul and only later move into Ireland.

Agriculture would be a problem, but if the Carthaginians founded cities and became an urban elite whilst the Celts remain a rural society, the newcomers could buy their food in. To pay for it, they expand trade between the British Isles and Scandanavia and the Med, ie trade with the enemy :eek:

Some Celts will naturally be hostile to the newcomers so we are looking at a series of Puno-Celtic wars.

[BlackMage]

I've always liked the idea of a fleet of Carthaginian ships, escaping the fall of Carthage, get blown west and end up in the Carribean.

Let's say, for instance, 500 Carthaginians, including a warship, try to flee outside the Pillars of Hercules to try and escape Roman domination, taking with them adequate supplies of food and seeds. Maybe we could even tie this into a TL with numerous Cathaginian settlements in Ireland or Africa. Anyway, a sudden storm blows the fleet way, way off course, and they end up landing in Hispaniola, a la Columbus. Alternately, you don't even need civilians; just have a substantial amount of Carthaginian trading ships blown away at the same time.

I would assume that they would create a settlement, maybe enslaving or subjugating the local Taino. If it is a trading fleet, then women will become highly prized, contributing to extensive interbreeding. Eventually, you get a caste-type system, with the descendents of the original Carthaginians forming a ruling class and possessing the knowledge preserved from Europe, and a lower class of enslaved natives, although neither would be 'pure' Taino or 'pure' Carthaginian. Presuming this is a TL where all went according to plan except for a trading fleet knocked off course, then Columbus arrives on an island with a literate population with 200 BC level technology (at best). From there, who knows?

[Smaug]

Southern Africa wasn't inhabited by Bantu peoples until at most 500 years ago...
Before that, all the inhabitants of southern Africa (think of Namibia, South-Africa
and parts of Angola, Zimbabwe and Mozambique) were solely inhabited by the native Khoisan.

So any Carthagian influence on local people would be on the native Khoisanid peoples,
which could result in a quite interesting scenario, by the way...

Imagine, a technologically developed Khoisan-civilisation...

This follows my understanding of the Southern tip of Africa. The Bantu weren't moving into the area, in strength, until around the time the Dutch arrived.

Does that really matter so much though, as a Carthaginian ship or two, with the desired hope of establishing a trading colony along the West coast of Africa, making landfall after a storm, in, say modern day Surinam? Following the coast North they would be in an excellent position to learn of both the Inca and the Maya.

Throw in 6 or 8 horses, a few smiths, some of the seed crops that grew in the Old World, and some Old World Cooties, and we have a chance for a decicive change in the way things happen in the New World.

For my own Chi, I'd like the Norse and the Polynesians, to introduce a few more cooties, and mayhaps offer a few more Old World ideas, even if they go quietly into the night.

Ideally, the Spanish hit shore, and run into a regimented people, with at least Bronze Age armor, horses offering a means of rapid communication, and the remainders of a Carthaginian/Polynesian Sea tradition. Sweet but unlikely.

The introduction of grain crops would be huge. Not so much in S. America, but if it hit the Mid-West........Nice.

Even if the only use of Iron was for Arrowheads and agricultural implements, the Spanish might very well have been owned.

Once again, I plagarize my own previous posts. Damn the Punic Wars for going wrong! Sorry, enough of my ranting:D

[Burton K Wheeler]

Southern Africa wasn't inhabited by Bantu peoples until at most 500 years ago...
Before that, all the inhabitants of southern Africa (think of Namibia, South-Africa
and parts of Angola, Zimbabwe and Mozambique) were solely inhabited by the native Khoisan.

So any Carthagian influence on local people would be on the native Khoisanid peoples,
which could result in a quite interesting scenario, by the way...

Imagine, a technologically developed Khoisan-civilisation...

I was thinking more along the lines of a Carthaginian-influenced Bantu migration, along with Punic/African hybrid states from Senegal to Ghana, which was where the most developed African states occurred in OTL. Perhaps a Punic analogue of Great Zimbabwe appears, though...

I really like the idea, but it seems like you would have to consider just how treacherous the West African coast is for navigation and what sort of effect that would have on any trading by beyond-the-pillars Carthaginian exiles.

Do you have any weblinks or information about navigation along the West African coast? Trade routes are the key.

Heres a suggestion, the Carthaginians were expert sailors, what if they managed to make it to the America's some how? Perhaps theres a storm that blows them off course and they end up somewhere in say Florida.

They'll trade with Brazil and the Caribbean at some point. Probably wind up equipping some native group with the resources to create a maritime empire.

Assume that they land first in Cornwall northern Gaul and only later move into Ireland.

Agriculture would be a problem, but if the Carthaginians founded cities and became an urban elite whilst the Celts remain a rural society, the newcomers could buy their food in. To pay for it, they expand trade between the British Isles and Scandanavia and the Med, ie trade with the enemy :eek:

Some Celts will naturally be hostile to the newcomers so we are looking at a series of Puno-Celtic wars.

Well, my plan was for a small settlement that assimilates quickly, just giving a little shove to Irish navigation technology. A very slow Irish and Pictish settlement of the North Atlantic ensues, with Celtic traders poking around the Arctic coasts of North America roughly as the OTL Norse did by 600 A.D. (Keeping in mind, of course, that the Arctic was not nearly so favorable for settlement then as it was during the Medieval Warm Period when the Norse came). This should give North America another shot of immunities and technologies.

I've always liked the idea of a fleet of Carthaginian ships, escaping the fall of Carthage, get blown west and end up in the Carribean.

Let's say, for instance, 500 Carthaginians, including a warship, try to flee outside the Pillars of Hercules to try and escape Roman domination, taking with them adequate supplies of food and seeds. Maybe we could even tie this into a TL with numerous Cathaginian settlements in Ireland or Africa. Anyway, a sudden storm blows the fleet way, way off course, and they end up landing in Hispaniola, a la Columbus. Alternately, you don't even need civilians; just have a substantial amount of Carthaginian trading ships blown away at the same time.

I would assume that they would create a settlement, maybe enslaving or subjugating the local Taino. If it is a trading fleet, then women will become highly prized, contributing to extensive interbreeding. Eventually, you get a caste-type system, with the descendents of the original Carthaginians forming a ruling class and possessing the knowledge preserved from Europe, and a lower class of enslaved natives, although neither would be 'pure' Taino or 'pure' Carthaginian. Presuming this is a TL where all went according to plan except for a trading fleet knocked off course, then Columbus arrives on an island with a literate population with 200 BC level technology (at best). From there, who knows?

I'd rather take baby steps, but there may very well be Punic-speaking colonies in the Caribbean by the time European seafarers come to the Caribbean.