Challenge: First Down, Tokyo?

[Blackbeard]

In spirit of my win in football today, I have a challenge, make American football a sport played by almost all or all of the world like soccer (this has to include the US)

[Brandonazz]

America conquers world and imposes will? :rolleyes:

[danielb1]

Hmm... an earlier, more popular Football in the US might allow it to spread to Japan and western Europe after World War II... but that's hardly worldwide.

One possibility is a decision to unify American/Canadian Football with either one or more forms of Rugby, Aussie Rules, or both. Imagine a bizarre hybrid of them ("Unified" Football?) competing with cricaseball for world dominance...:p

[Flocculencio]

In spirit of my win in football today, I have a challenge, make American football a sport played by almost all or all of the world like soccer (this has to include the US)

The trouble with that is all the equipment you need to play American football properly.

The advantage of football is that you just need a patch of open ground, something to mark the goals and something vaguely ball-like. That's the reason it's become so widespread- any slum kids can tie a bundle of rags into a ball and use that to play. With American football you need proper equipment and more importantly proper training. Also, it's a lot easier to get badly injured in American football than in football which means it's a lot riskier for low-income people in many countries to play because they can't afford to get injured.

And then, of course, there's the fact that American football is the third most boring spectator sport ever devised. The only sports more boring are baseball and cricket :D

[HelloLegend]

True, without the right equipment, American Football is rather dangerous.

Would American Football have had more international success if the name wasn't also Football?

What if the name was something like "Field Battle."
Would the Manchester United Hooligans be more interested in NFL (FBL) Europe?

[mishery]

The trouble with that is all the equipment you need to play American football properly.

But it didn't originally have all the equipment.

How about a Harvard-Cambridge Uni intercollegiate game, initially played by US rules when the game at Harvard and UK rules when at Cambridge. A compromise set of rules develops and this becomes the dominant oval ball game in the UK, spreads to empire and all the other countries where British sports were taken up. As the US is the dominant force in this game, the innovations brought in there spread to the other countries.

[Hendryk]

But it didn't originally have all the equipment.
If one wants American football minus the equipment to be more popular, how about using rugby instead? No weeny body armor in that one, just guts and brawn. Smash that ball down behind the goal lines, even if you lose an ear and half your teeth forcing your way through the other team's defense.


And then, of course, there's the fact that American football is the third most boring spectator sport ever devised. The only sports more boring are baseball and cricket :D
Seconded. I don't think I've ever sat through an entire game of American football. Good things there are 20 minutes of commercial breaks for every 15 minutes of game, they're the most interesting part when you think about it.

[Flocculencio]

But it didn't originally have all the equipment.


Yes- that's simply because it was a variant of rugby. Rugby still has some of the same constraints to it's growth that American football does- because its rough it's more of an upper-middle class sport than a working class one. Working class people can't afford to be out of work for a month recovering from multiple fractures. Also, you need to be properly trained to play rugby properly, just like with American football, in order to minimise the risk of injury.

With football, as I said earlier, basically anyone who can kick a ball can play, which is why it's caught on all over the world.

The anomalous region, however, is the Indian subcontinent where football has never really caught on and cricket has despite cricket needing specialised equipment.

[Vampiloup]

It's difficult :

- Cost of equipment ;

- Static. Really too much static.

- Too dangerous.

- Too slow.

- No real field tactics.


Even if you remove the bad things, you can only have a surimi-rugby ;)

Well, i think it's true : Rugby IS what American Football want to be when grow.



Sorry. It's the more hard ATL to do i have ever seen.

[mishery]

Yes- that's simply because it was a variant of rugby. Rugby still has some of the same constraints to it's growth that American football does- because its rough it's more of an upper-middle class sport than a working class one. Working class people can't afford to be out of work for a month recovering from multiple fractures.

Er, rugby league? Welsh miners playing rugby union?

[Flocculencio]

Er, rugby league? Welsh miners playing rugby union?

I can never remember the difference between league and union but IIRC one of them was developed as a much safer form of rugby so that there would be less chance of injury.

[1940LaSalle]

And then, of course, there's the fact that American football is the third most boring spectator sport ever devised. The only sports more boring are baseball and cricket :D

To which the rigorously correct response is: hogwash (and that's being exceedingly polite). SOCCER (the correct name) is by miles more boring than all of the above multiplied. Cricket is sufficiently arcane to be completely unfathomable, and thus gets a distant second. Third...well, that's like asking what's the third brightest celestial object: what's the point?

:D

[NapoleonXIV]

ALL sports are boring. The reason why certain ones have caught on certain places is mainly because of vagaries of promotion and marketing and how the games overall structure lends itself to that. Baseball and Football are highly linear and lend themselves readily to media that see them as almost little dramas or stories, that is radio and television. Baseball games, in fact, have a beginning, middle, and end. This storylike aspect may be why baseball is also popular in Japan, where little seemingly pointless stories are a major aspect of Shinto and Zen.

Soccer OTOH is continuous. Its' practically impossible to follow on radio and doesn't come off at all well on TV, where most people will look away and then look back to find they no longer know where the ball is. The reason it's become so worldwide popular is because, 1. Its older than most other sports, and so was there first to gain people's loyalty and 2. It can be readily promoted through print media, and so again, has been promoted worldwide for generations. America, tho, had extensive radio and TV before most other nations while our print media actually was behind Europe's until the early 20thc

How to promote football worldwide? It could be done. It would take several billion dollars and several years in which it lost money and would probably take decades to make the money back even then, but it could be done. This is what actually happened in America with baseball and football, but sports promoters here were able to talk cities into footing the bill for the several decades of nonprofitable promotion with sweetheart deals for stadiums given to team owners.

[Gonzaga]

SOCCER (the correct name) is by miles more boring than all of the above multiplied.


BLASPHEMY!!!!

[Flocculencio]

ALL sports are boring.

Actually, that is a very good point. Afterall, most of them consist of x number of overpaid men chasing a ball :D

[Codeman]

It's difficult :

- Cost of equipment ;

- Static. Really too much static.

- Too dangerous.

- Too slow.

- No real field tactics.


Even if you remove the bad things, you can only have a surimi-rugby ;)

Well, i think it's true : Rugby IS what American Football want to be when grow.



Sorry. It's the more hard ATL to do i have ever seen.


Too slow no real field tactics expensive???

Have you ever played football I have and still am trust me its not slow. The only thing bad about it is the long hard practices. The amount of practice you have to do is great. I cant think of any other sport that is harder than football.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

In my job, I do statistics for pretty much every sport at a major D-1 university here in the States. They're all pretty fun, though baseball is pretty slow and I can't stand the individual sports like Swimming and Diving and Cross Country and Track and Field. Six of one or half a dozen of the other when it comes to team sports, though.

[Hendryk]

Actually, that is a very good point. Afterall, most of them consist of x number of overpaid men chasing a ball :D
I entirely agree. In fact I once suggested a WI (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=29470) about spectator sports never existing except possibly as a niche phenomenon. To me this would be a marginally saner world, one in which grown men don't cover themselves with war paint and engage in occasionally murderous violence against people wearing different colors than their own.

[Marius]

Cricket's only boring if you are too stupid to understand it...;)

[Douglas]

And then, of course, there's the fact that American football is the third most boring spectator sport ever devised. The only sports more boring are baseball and cricket :D

Nah, soccer...rugby...boring. :p

[marl_d]

Soccer is the easiest sport to learn also, they taught Chimps to play soccer with all the rules, but they couldn't get them to play Baseball, Basketball or Amer Football

[Flocculencio]

I entirely agree. In fact I once suggested a WI (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=29470) about spectator sports never existing except possibly as a niche phenomenon. To me this would be a marginally saner world, one in which grown men don't cover themselves with war paint and engage in occasionally murderous violence against people wearing different colors than their own.

That's an interesting idea- perhaps we'd have to find a way to remove first the Ancient Greek and then the 19th C English ideas of competitive sport.

Although there is a quote from Michener which I quite like: "The Greeks and the English invented sports. The Romans and Americans turned sport into spectacle." Perhaps instead of removing the idea of spectator sports we should try to find a way to keep it from becoming a spectacle.

[Flocculencio]

Nah, soccer...rugby...boring. :p

Oh, I agree- they're incredibly boring. I try to avoid watching them if ever I can. The only games I've ever actually enjoyed watching were my old Uni's Varsity Day rugby matches and that was more for the camaraderie and the beer than the actual sport.

However, I still fail to see how American Football, which goes on forever and ever and starts and stops every five minutes is less boring than football or rugby.

It doesn't reach the depths of boredom that cricket and baseball do but it's still pretty bad.

In the end I still think it's horrible that, no matter what the game, some overmuscled thugs whose only talent is the ability to handle a ball get paid millions of dollars that could be put to better use.

[Blackbeard]

An entire play of football usually lasts 8 seconds

[1940LaSalle]

BLASPHEMY!!!!


So what do you propose to do about it? :D

Napoleon XIV's condescension notwithstanding (plus the collusion of several members from France :rolleyes: ), not all sports are boring. Baseball has a very sizable strategic/gamesmanship aspect to it that you'll never appreciate if you didn't grow up with the game. And if you want a continuous sport, forget soccer: that's all about technique and looking good rather than the result. How on earth can a sport have so many scoreless ties and require decisions by the rule book (e.g., the number of corner kicks) determine the winner? No, if you want an exciting continuous sport, that's hockey--and no, I don't mean field hockey (which is slightly more interesting than watching paint dry). I mean hockey as played in the NHL, the world's most elite league--with the oldest trophy for the championship in sports, the Stanley Cup. Hockey is to soccer in terms of excitement as lightning is to a lightning bug in terms of energy.

[Gonzaga]

So what do you propose to do about it? :D

Well, it will be long...

I believe calling football (that’s the real name, I don’t know where you’ve found this terrible word, soccer) boring is wrong. It’s the game where the impossible can happen, where David can defeat Golias! It isn’t just technical and tactical like others. How many victories, how many defeats, have completely challenged all our reasoning and all our experience? A little guy, as Romário, heading the ball in front a Swedish defender almost twice his height, or Maradona faking a “Mano de Diós” and, in the same game, making perhaps the most beautiful goal of all the World Cups! This year, in Germany, the final game was played by Italy and France, two teams that were considered weak in the beginning of the competition but, against all expectations, including many people in their own countries, made it! Are there any collective sports where the unpredictable is so strong that may defines the final score? People like football because it can’t be guessed! All things that are predictable are boring too: everybody likes surprises!

Another error is considering football a game which the individual is privileged over the team. It’s true there are teams who can be driven almost totally by just one player. But teams like these never work if the rest of the group has a lack of quality. As once a friend of mine said, “football is like a jazz band. The improvise delight us, but the rest of the band must keep the rhythm.” One example was France, in the World Cup, where the person who drove the team was clearly Zidane. In the game against Brazil, with impressive technic and creativity, he perceived the complete apathy of the Brazilian constellation of pale stars, and commanded the “bleus” like a Viking warlord commanding his warriors against a group of monks, who believed that only with their “spiritual superiority” they could win, and he gives us no escape but the extermination. But he only could do it because he had an entire good team working with him. In the Brazilian side, instead, every individual talent could not act in coordination with the others.

In volleyball and basketball, there are no team of little guys that, by miracle, in a special day, could surprise another team composed by tall players. The football genius, when appears, reveals a born talent that has nothing to do with ideal shapes. It’s the most democratic existing game! That’s the reason I can’t understand why the USA prefer play their FOOTball with the hands. THE HANDS!!! Generally, it consists on several clashes of players that seem like armoured medieval knights, when suddenly, after one of those confrontations, a little light of art appears in the quarterback’s pass. But, passing using feet (again, we are talking about FOOTball) it’s much more complex than the one using the hands. Football forbids hands because, otherwise, everything becomes much easier. This attempt of trying to play with these difficulties that gives to the football an almost artistic status. As once said the Brazilian writer Nelson Rodrigues, “in football, the worst blind spectator is the one who only sees the ball. Even the humblest street game has a kind of Shakespearean complexity. Sometimes, in a corner good or bad launched, there is an obvious touch of the supernatural.”

Of course, I agree there is an industry sustaining people’s passion of football. It’s very clear just by looking the millionaire salaries paid to the players - many of them don’t even deserve a coin. An example is Ronaldo Nazário, and the football he is presenting nowadays. If I were an artist, earning what he earns, I would paint one Sistine Chapel every week! Finally, OK, football can be considered the updated Roman panis et circenses. But, what a show!!!

[Tocomocho]

And then, of course, there's the fact that American football is the third most boring spectator sport ever devised. The only sports more boring are baseball and cricket :D

You forget golf. ;)

[Will Ritson]

I can never remember the difference between league and union but IIRC one of them was developed as a much safer form of rugby so that there would be less chance of injury.

Rugby league and rugby union are two distinct games that generally (especially up until 1995) appeal to different socio-economic groups.

League was formed by northern English clubs that wanted to openly pay players expenses for time lost by missing work due to clashes with fixtures (the majority of whom were working class from manual jobs), whereas rugby union was controlled by the upper-middle classes that saw any form of professionalism as a threat to their sport.

22 northern English clubs broke away, and within five years the majority of rugby clubs in England were playing rugby league rules. However, due to the increased finances required to pay players, league needed to increase income, and changed the rules of the game over time to make it more appealing to spectators (hence the saying that union is a good game to play, while league is the better game to watch).

As a result rugby league clubs became a focal point for their community, while rugby union clubs played in small stadia in front of small crowds until well into the 1990s when the sport finally accepted open professionalism.

It's obviously much more complex than that, but in a nutshell. I can recommend "Rugby League in the 20th Century: A social and economic history" by Tony Collins, which goes into much more detail about the demography behind the game.

[1940LaSalle]

Well, it will be long...

I believe calling football (that’s the real name, I don’t know where you’ve found this terrible word, soccer) boring is wrong.

That's derived from the British term for this game, AsSOCiation Football. The highlighted letters became shorthand, and that's how it's known in North America.

It’s the game where the impossible can happen, where David can defeat Golias!

Can happen, I don't doubt. Lightning CAN strike anywhere. Does happen? Good luck waiting for it.

It isn’t just technical and tactical like others. How many victories, how many defeats, have completely challenged all our reasoning and all our experience? A little guy, as Romário, heading the ball in front a Swedish defender almost twice his height, or Maradona faking a “Mano de Diós” and, in the same game, making perhaps the most beautiful goal of all the World Cups! This year, in Germany, the final game was played by Italy and France, two teams that were considered weak in the beginning of the competition but, against all expectations, including many people in their own countries, made it! Are there any collective sports where the unpredictable is so strong that may defines the final score? People like football because it can’t be guessed! All things that are predictable are boring too: everybody likes surprises!

Another error is considering football a game which the individual is privileged over the team. It’s true there are teams who can be driven almost totally by just one player. But teams like these never work if the rest of the group has a lack of quality. As once a friend of mine said, “football is like a jazz band. The improvise delight us, but the rest of the band must keep the rhythm.” One example was France, in the World Cup, where the person who drove the team was clearly Zidane. In the game against Brazil, with impressive technic and creativity, he perceived the complete apathy of the Brazilian constellation of pale stars, and commanded the “bleus” like a Viking warlord commanding his warriors against a group of monks, who believed that only with their “spiritual superiority” they could win, and he gives us no escape but the extermination. But he only could do it because he had an entire good team working with him. In the Brazilian side, instead, every individual talent could not act in coordination with the others.

In volleyball and basketball, there are no team of little guys that, by miracle, in a special day, could surprise another team composed by tall players. The football genius, when appears, reveals a born talent that has nothing to do with ideal shapes. It’s the most democratic existing game! That’s the reason I can’t understand why the USA prefer play their FOOTball with the hands. THE HANDS!!! Generally, it consists on several clashes of players that seem like armoured medieval knights, when suddenly, after one of those confrontations, a little light of art appears in the quarterback’s pass. But, passing using feet (again, we are talking about FOOTball) it’s much more complex than the one using the hands. Football forbids hands because, otherwise, everything becomes much easier. This attempt of trying to play with these difficulties that gives to the football an almost artistic status. As once said the Brazilian writer Nelson Rodrigues, “in football, the worst blind spectator is the one who only sees the ball. Even the humblest street game has a kind of Shakespearean complexity. Sometimes, in a corner good or bad launched, there is an obvious touch of the supernatural.”

Of course, I agree there is an industry sustaining people’s passion of football. It’s very clear just by looking the millionaire salaries paid to the players - many of them don’t even deserve a coin. An example is Ronaldo Nazário, and the football he is presenting nowadays. If I were an artist, earning what he earns, I would paint one Sistine Chapel every week! Finally, OK, football can be considered the updated Roman panis et circenses. But, what a show!!!

Not from what I've seen: it's a lot of middle-of-the-field maneuvering for position and once in a while someone makes a mistake. And even then, it's a rarity that the ball finds the back of the net. It's a game that's badly out of balance in favor of defense; otherwise, why would there be so many scoreless ties?

And deciding games by shootouts is antithetical to the team sport concept. To do so in a world championship makes it worse. You won't see hockey do that in the Stanley Cup playoffs, which are so venerable they make the World Cup look like they were invented yesterday. You'll never see anything like the Philadelphia Flyers' victory in five overtime periods (over the Pittsburgh Penguins) in soccer, ever. You want unpredictability? Hockey has that in spades over soccer. A fourth-line forward can get hot and ring up a hat trick; a backup goaler can get equally hot and perform like a Vezina Trophy winner.

I'd watch minor league hockey over the World Cup any day.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

In volleyball and basketball, there are no team of little guys that, by miracle, in a special day, could surprise another team composed by tall players.

Watch college sports for a change.

[marl_d]

the phrase "Any Given Sunday" was coined because anything can happen on the Field in an American Football game, even the Mighty can fall to a crappy team

[DominusNovus]

- No real field tactics.
Plenty of tactics. Haven't you ever seen the commentators doodling the plans on the screen druing a game?

And then, of course, there's the fact that American football is the third most boring spectator sport ever devised. The only sports more boring are baseball and cricket :D
Whoah. I'll admit baseball is boring. But the beauty of it is that its completely paced. You know exactly how many chances each time has to fuck things up. But football most certainly is not.

<long spiel>
Ok, first of all, none of that was really concrete. Its all wishy washy abstract stuff. Nothing to grab on to. Which is just like soccer. Second of all, football is called that because its play on foot, not with the feet, as opposed to mounted sports. Thats why its so old, its the commoners game while the nobles rode around on horseback for fun.

And is it just me or would you have to focus on the entire game, all the way through, to enjoy watching soccer? I haven't been able to do it and was incredibly grateful when the world cup was over, cuz thats the only time I ever have to deal with soccer invading my beautiful country's entertainment network.

[Tizoc]

Football (the TRUE one, not the degenerated rugby) is, I believe, the only game which the arbiters mistakes may be a part of spectacle...:D

Also, I don't understand how a game that is played using HANDS mostly, may be called FOOTball.:rolleyes:

[1940LaSalle]

And is it just me or would you have to focus on the entire game, all the way through, to enjoy watching soccer? I haven't been able to do it and was incredibly grateful when the world cup was over, cuz thats the only time I ever have to deal with soccer invading my beautiful country's entertainment network.

Beautiful. Captures soccer perfectly. The next time you're in the Philadelphia/southern NJ area, I'll buy you a beer or two.

[DominusNovus]

Also, I don't understand how a game that is played using HANDS mostly, may be called FOOTball.:rolleyes:
Again, its called football because its played on foot, not on horseback.

[Hapsburg]

You forget golf. ;)
Well, golf can be funny sometimes. More than once I've seen a golfer go mad and start chasing people with a putter at the local golf course. It is funny.

Best way to make Gridiron more popular:
-Soccer loses favor when this new and more exciting sport comes about, called "Gridiron football".
-Gridiron Football loses the body armor crap. That way, it's more bloody and violent, and thus more entertaining. People shall watch, and watch they shall.

[Flocculencio]

-Gridiron Football loses the body armor crap. That way, it's more bloody and violent, and thus more entertaining. People shall watch, and watch they shall.

Actually IIRC you need the body armour in American Football otherwise people start getting killed at an alarming rate.

Without the body armour you need to tone it down a bit and it becomes a lot more like Rugby League.

[Mikey]

Professional, tackle football requires a boatload of gear, but most American kids play the game with a ball (often a 20-cent nerf thing) and a flat, straight stretch of land (usually the street). There are no more injuries than anything else. There's also a fair amount of no-pads tackle played, and it's certainly not any more dangerous than rugby.

[Hapsburg]

Actually IIRC you need the body armour in American Football otherwise people start getting killed at an alarming rate.
Eh...duh? That's why it would be entertaining. Like newage gladiator fights, but on large teams.:D

[Tizoc]

Again, its called football because its played on foot, not on horseback.
Okay. Lets see what sports can be called football acording to the above definition:
1. Tennis
2. Golf
3. Cricket
4. Handball
5. Basketball
6. Baseball
7. Softball
8. Volleyball
9. Pelota
10. Hurling
...and, of course
11. Boules

[DominusNovus]

Okay. Lets see what sports can be called football acording to the above definition:
1. Tennis
2. Golf
3. Cricket
4. Handball
5. Basketball
6. Baseball
7. Softball
8. Volleyball
9. Pelota
10. Hurling
...and, of course
11. Boules
In other news, since both birds and planes fly, birds have been declared planes. :rolleyes:

I don't make up the names, I just know thats where the name came from. And basketball is derived from football.