Founding the German Empire.......in 1815

[Beck Reilly]

What if...

In February of 1815, while the Congress is in recess due to Napoleon’s escape from Elba, Prince Klemens von Metternich, the Austrian minister of state who acted as president of the Congress, dies in a freak horse-riding accident...

Now, with Congress reconvening, we have several enormous figure advocating for the unification of the German states. With the foremost and most crucial opponent to the unification, Prince Klemens von Metternich, lying in a grave, Prince Karl August von Hardenberg, Baron Heinrich von Stein, and Alexander I of Russia take this as an oppurtunity to create the German Empire, in 1815.

Now what happens?

[PM Nixon]

I'm not an expert in European history around this time, but if a German empire is formed at this time, then the balance of power in Europe will be greatly changed. For one, France will have a serious competitor on its borders, not exactly something they'll forget anytime soon. Britain will have to deal with this eventually as well; I would not be surprised if an arms race between the two nations develops sooner than IOTL. One question: this will include Prussia, right? If so, this changes European politics later on in the century, especially those of Bismark, whose dream of a unified Germany has already been realized.

[Beck Reilly]

Yes, the German Empire would include Prussia, almost certainly with Friedrich Wilhelm III becoming the King or Kaiser of the new nation. In fact, at this time, of the two men I mention here (Hardenberg and Stein), Hardenberg is the Chancellor of Prussia between 1810 and 1817, and Stein was the Prussian equivalent to the Ambassador to Russia during the Napoleonic Wars.

[Straha]

in order to stick it to the french, gemrnay might get alsace-lorraine in 1815....

[PM Nixon]

Yes, the German Empire would include Prussia, almost certainly with Friedrich Wilhelm III becoming the King or Kaiser of the new nation. In fact, at this time, of the two men I mention here (Hardenberg and Stein), Hardenberg is the Chancellor of Prussia between 1810 and 1817, and Stein was the Prussian equivalent to the Ambassador to Russia during the Napoleonic Wars.

Thanks for the info. Germany is going to be a strong power very soon. The alliance system may come into being alot sooner. Anyone think this will have an impact on the Crimean War?

[Beck Reilly]

That's exactly what I was thinking, Nixon. I see a Germany siding with Britain and moving on Russia over land. I see a much more successful Crimean War with possibly an independent, though German-dependent, Ukraine appearing. Will this have any impact on the ACW? It will provide for a third power for the CSA to seek recognition...

[PM Nixon]

That's exactly what I was thinking, Nixon. I see a Germany siding with Britain and moving on Russia over land. I see a much more successful Crimean War with possibly an independent, though German-dependent, Ukraine appearing. Will this have any impact on the ACW? It will provide for a third power for the CSA to seek recognition...


I doubt that the Germans would render aid or even recognition of the CSA, unless of course to tick off France and Britain. They could see something in weakening the USA, believing them to be a future threat......


The Crimean War could be a lot worse for the Russians. The French may find a hard time siding with Germany....you think it's possible for Germany and Britain to face off against France and Russia over this?

[Beck Reilly]

I think that we'll see Germany joining with Britain. I'm not real sure about the French. I don't see them joining sides with either Germany or Russia at this point in time. Maybe you'd see them moodily pointing at Germany and telling Britain "I'm not going if they are." I think you may see France sit this one out. You may also see Austria join the war due to German influence.

Of course, I guess it's possible that you could see a World War start...

France, Kingdom of Sardinia, Spain, United States, and Russia
vs.
Germany, Britain, Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire, and, eventually, the Ukraine ;)

[PM Nixon]

I think that we'll see Germany joining with Britain. I'm not real sure about the French. I don't see them joining sides with either Germany or Russia at this point in time. Maybe you'd see them moodily pointing at Germany and telling Britain "I'm not going if they are." I think you may see France sit this one out. You may also see Austria join the war due to German influence.

Of course, I guess it's possible that you could see a World War start...

France, Kingdom of Sardinia, Spain, United States, and Russia
vs.
Germany, Britain, Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire, and, eventually, the Ukraine ;)

That is what I was thinking: an early World War. But I like the French staying out of the war, that seems a wee bit plausible. Germany will form strong ties with Austria, and probably with Great Britain acting as a possible mediator between them and France.

[Beck Reilly]

Yup, Nix, that's how I see it.

There's going to be a treaty eventually formed between Germany, Britain, and Austria-Hungary and another between France, Russia, and Italy. The US and Ottoman Turks are the wild cards in this timeline. Eventual war around the turn of the century between the two alliances. BGA-H eventual victory. More peaceful 20th overall.

[PM Nixon]

Yup, Nix, that's how I see it.

There's going to be a treaty eventually formed between Germany, Britain, and Austria-Hungary and another between France, Russia, and Italy. The US and Ottoman Turks are the wild cards in this timeline. Eventual war around the turn of the century between the two alliances. BGA-H eventual victory. More peaceful 20th overall.

Thinking about doing a formal TL? This is a POD I've never seen explored before. I guess the Ottomans would join the Brits, thanks to Russia on France's side. Interesting war this would prove to be....Russia and Italy would handle Austria-Hungary and Germany, while France squares off with GB and Germany. Maybe GB doesn't take as heavy casualties as IOTL, leaving most of the ground war to Germany.....

[Beck Reilly]

I don't know, maybe I'll do an actual TL. I'm sort of short on time, though. The combination of GB's naval power and Germany's army is almost irresistable...

[PM Nixon]

I don't know, maybe I'll do an actual TL. I'm sort of short on time, though. The combination of GB's naval power and Germany's army is almost irresistable...

Ah yes, it most certainly is.....:D

[Beck Reilly]

Would anyone be interested in working on a timeline with me? I simply don't have the time in the coming weeks to do it by myself.

[PM Nixon]

Would anyone be interested in working on a timeline with me? I simply don't have the time in the coming weeks to do it by myself.

Maybe I could, but I'm gonna be busy myself with school.....maybe Straha would help?

[Beck Reilly]

Yeah, anything else that you think would occur in this timeline besides this First World War?

[Straha]

heh europe in 1815 isn't my specialty sorry.. I can give advice for the ameircas thoguh...

[PM Nixon]

Yeah, anything else that you think would occur in this timeline besides this First World War?

Hmmm....I'll give some suggestions tomorrow. I need a bit of time to think about it.

[LDoc]

I'm willing to help on this TL as Germanys is one the places i'm most interested in.

[Beck Reilly]

Okay, that'd be great LDoc. You got any ideas to add to what Nix and I have been saying?

[LDoc]

The problem with Britian joining in a alliance with Germany is that it means abondoning Franceto join one of their rivals, somthing that they would not do unless forced. I would think that Britian would merely step back from the situation and not get involved in the Crimean(SP?) War for fear of lossing France as an allie.

[PM Nixon]

Interesting, LDoc. I guess Britain would act as a mediator, playing the two powers off of each other.

What about the 1848 Revolutions? I don't know too much about them, but would a unified Germany change things in that regard?

Another thing that could change: Imperialism. The race for colonies in Africa could start alot earlier, or with a Germany much more ready and willing to take on the UK and France. Also, a unified Germany this early may be ready for an arms race with the UK or France, not unlike the one IOTL.

[Xen]

That's exactly what I was thinking, Nixon. I see a Germany siding with Britain and moving on Russia over land. I see a much more successful Crimean War with possibly an independent, though German-dependent, Ukraine appearing. Will this have any impact on the ACW? It will provide for a third power for the CSA to seek recognition...

Fourth actually :p they also tried to get help from Spain. Though it is a different Germany, OTL Prussia was much more sympathetic to the Union cause. It was part of the east-west division in giving their support to who in that war. Could Germany join the Union in the war against slavery? A way to keep France from gaining an ally in the America's and a slap in Napolean's face?

It would also be intresting to see Germany aligning with Russia in the Crimean War, though that is not your intention. Germany gains influence over Hungary, and the Balkans, perhaps annexing Slovenia, while Russia takes Constantinople. Now Britain and France have two new rivals in the Mediterranean.

[LDoc]

In the race for colonies I see the UK gaining the most valuable provinces in most places with Germany and france in a bitter race for 2nd. I could see Portugal and the Netherlands lossing all their colonies to France and Germany with China being even more divided between the "big three". But by the late 1800s Germanies navy will just be to big for a France to manage. But I don't see UK getting involved in the French-German feud unless their forced to, instead I see them trying to play German and France off each other so that neither can threaten their interest. The wild card is what happens when the USA explodes on the scene with the take over of spanish colonies, the completion of the panama canal, and the construction of the great white fleet.

[Beck Reilly]

I think I'm going to start making a formal timeline. What would you expect to see happen in the first thirty years of the German Empire (1818 - 1848)?

I think I have more than enough to write about after 1848 but I can't think of much to say in those three decades.

[PM Nixon]

I think I'm going to start making a formal timeline. What would you expect to see happen in the first thirty years of the German Empire (1818 - 1848)?

I think I have more than enough to write about after 1848 but I can't think of much to say in those three decades.
Any experts on this time period on the board? I guess we could deal with the collapse of Spain's empire in Mexico, the Revolutions of 1848, and whatever else I can find online.

[Beck Reilly]

Okay. The first two years are rather simple. I'm not sure how much detail I want to go into but here's the brief outline of the first two years:


1815 – 1816: In February, while the Congress of Vienna is in recess due to Napoleon’s escape from Elba, the Austrian minister of state who acted as president of the Congress, dies in a freak horse-riding accident. When Congress reconvenes four months later, several figures step forward, advocating the unification of the many German states. Among the leading advocates are Prince Karl August von Hardenberg, Baron Heinrich von Stein, and Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia, as well as Alexander I of Russia. After weeks of arguments and deal-making, the Prussians get their way. The German states of Prussia, Bavaria, Hannover, Mecklenberg, Nassau, Werten, Holstein, and Saxony merge to form the German Empire. As a ‘reward’ for the service in the Napoleonic Wars, the German Empire is granted the French provinces of Alsace-Lorraine. Friedrich Wilhelm III becomes the German Emporer (or Kaiser).


How much detail would you suggest going into? Off the top of your head can you think of any timelines I can look at which have a good format?

[PM Nixon]

Okay. The first two years are rather simple. I'm not sure how much detail I want to go into but here's the brief outline of the first two years:


1815 – 1816: In February, while the Congress of Vienna is in recess due to Napoleon’s escape from Elba, the Austrian minister of state who acted as president of the Congress, dies in a freak horse-riding accident. When Congress reconvenes four months later, several figures step forward, advocating the unification of the many German states. Among the leading advocates are Prince Karl August von Hardenberg, Baron Heinrich von Stein, and Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia, as well as Alexander I of Russia. After weeks of arguments and deal-making, the Prussians get their way. The German states of Prussia, Bavaria, Hannover, Mecklenberg, Nassau, Werten, Holstein, and Saxony merge to form the German Empire. As a ‘reward’ for the service in the Napoleonic Wars, the German Empire is granted the French provinces of Alsace-Lorraine. Friedrich Wilhelm III becomes the German Emporer (or Kaiser).


How much detail would you suggest going into? Off the top of your head can you think of any timelines I can look at which have a good format?


I think a year by year, or maybe a decade by decade account, would be best for this TL. Try being concise, but any changes of course should be able to be explained from what you've typed so far. You'll do find; after all, aren't you experienced in this?

As for TLs, I guess you could use alternatehistory.com's AH Guide to look at other examples.

[Beck Reilly]

Yeah, Nixon, I've done several timelines before, but they're all about American history, which I can blab on about for hours.

I don't know quite as much about European history and, therefore, don't have as much to write about. I think I'm probably better off with a decade-by-decade account, rather than a year-by-year timeline.

By the way, I recently found a website with major world events from this period (and others): here (http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/History_n2/a.html)

[PM Nixon]

Yeah, Nixon, I've done several timelines before, but they're all about American history, which I can blab on about for hours.

I don't know quite as much about European history and, therefore, don't have as much to write about. I think I'm probably better off with a decade-by-decade account, rather than a year-by-year timeline.

Try this website for starters:

http://europeanhistory.about.com/

BTW, I know how you feel. I tried doing one TL a few months ago involving America annexing Mexico after the Mexican War, and it proved to be alot harder than I anticipated. It was fun doing the research, though.

[LDoc]

the first decade at least is going to be full of internal disputes on how much central authority their is with Austria trying their hardest to spread dissent to the more decentralized leaning states. But i'll start doing more research on what is happening in europe in that period.

[Beck Reilly]

Okay, thank you LDoc and Nixon. Any information you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

[Beck Reilly]

And, by the way, if anyone else has anything that they'd like to add or comment on, feel free to jump in. I'd love to have as much advice and help as possible.

[Beck Reilly]

Here's the preliminary first part. Any changes, corrections, additions, or other device is greatly appreciated.

Founding the German Empire: Part One

1815 – 1820: Escaping from Elba in March, Napoleon soon reaches France and marches on Paris. When the King Louis XVII sends troops to stop him, Napoleon wins over those same troops. Once in Paris, he promulgates a new and more democratic constitution. Veterans of his old campaigns flock to his side. Napoleon asks the allies for peace but they reject his offer, instead declaring his government illegal. He decides to strike first. Napoleon goes campaigning through Belgium, culminating in the Battle of Waterloo on June 18, 1815. Napoleon is defeated by British forces under Wellington and Prussian forces under Blücher. In Paris, crowds begged him to fight on, but the politicians withdrew their support. Napoleon fled to Rochefort, where he surrendered to the captain of the British battleship, Bellerophon. He was then exiled to Saint Helena, a remote island in the southern Atlantic Ocean.

In Vienna, the Congress tasked with ending the Napoleonic Wars and reconciling European differences is put in recess. It is agreed that when Napoleon is defeated once and for all, the Congress will reconvene. Meanwhile, Prince Klemens von Metternich, the Austrian Minister of State who acted as president of the Congress, dies in a freak horse-riding accident. When the Congress of Vienna reconvenes, several key delegates revoice their opinions on the future of the German states. Many of these delegates, including Prince Karl August von Hardenberg, Baron Heinrich von Stein, and Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia, as well as Alexander I of Russia advocate, once again, the unification of the German states. Without the main voice of opposition, that of Metternich, the Congress narrowily allows the unification of the many German states. As a sign of gratitude for the services rendered by Prussian soldiers in the Napoleonic Wars, the German nation is to be granted the French territory of Alsace-Lorraine.

By the end of the year, the German states are already convening in Berlin, which is to be the capital of the nation, to discuss the terms of unification. Early the next year, the German states of Prussia, Bavaria, Hannover, Mecklenberg, Nassau, Werten, Holstein, Saxony, and others, merge to form the German Empire. Aided by Chancellor von Hardenberg, Friedrich Wilhelm III becomes the Emporer of Germany, known as the Kaiser.

The Napoleonic Wars are finally brought to a close with the last colonies of the conquered nations being returned to their rightful owners (i.e. the East Indies are returned to Dutch possession) in 1816. In 1818, as the US-Canadian border is being agreed upon, the final allied troops leave France, returning home for the first time in at least three years. Meanwhile, the Ottoman Turks begin to give limited autonomy to their Serbian territories.

In South America, Brazil becomes a separate kingdom, equal to Portugal and ruled by a Portuguese monarch in Rio de Jainero. In 1820, a liberal revolution in Portugal brings the king back from Brazil, leaving his son Pedro as regent. On the rest of the continent, the series of wars for Latin American Independence rage. Revolution spreads from nation to nation as Spain’s tentative hold on their American possessions finally slips. Buenos Aires and nearby provinces declare their independence from Spain. Independence leader José de San Martín defeats royalist forces on February 12, 1817, in the Battle of Chacabuco near Santiago, Chile. Chile declares its independence on February 12, 1818. General Simón Bolívar defeats royalist forces in the Battle of Boyacá on August 7, 1819; the Republic of Colombia (also known as Gran Colombia) is proclaimed on December 17, consisting of Colombia, Venezuela, and Ecuador.

With industry just beginning to develop under the guidance of Chancellor von Hardenberg, the English government decrees that it will no longer allow children under the age of nine to work in factories. Also, at this time, British dominance over the Indian subcontinent is assured while a small trading post, named Singapore, is established in southeast Asia by the British East India Company. In the German Empire, Austrian politicians and financiers constantly try to obstruct the development of industry in the nation. In the end, however, the efforts of the Austrians are not enough, as the German Empire industrializes rapidly, becoming second only to Great Britain by 1821.

In the Americas, Spain sells off another of its former colonies. This time, Florida is sold to the United States for a relatively small sum. The United States passes the Missouri Compromise the next year, allowing Missouri and Maine into the Union. Simon Bolivar becomes the President of the Republic of Columbia in 1819 while American interests found Liberia, designed for the repatriatation of former slaves to the African continent.

[LDoc]

hmm i think it needs more things on germany is this period. Such as Austria trying to lobby catholic Bavaria to leave Germany and how centralised a German nation should be. I could diffenetly see a senate of representatives from the different states to at least "advice" the Kaiser maybe have a more useful role such as control inter-state trade and relations or even financies. Maybe Bavaria tries to leave Germany and after the reconquest of Bavaria the Kaiser tries to stop the threat of other seccestionist movements by setting up a senate.

[Beck Reilly]

No Time for Gloom – Founding the German Empire

1815: Napoleon Bonaparte escapes from Elba in March, returning to France by May. The Congress of Vienna goes into recess until Napoleon is returned to exile, during which time, Prince Klemens von Metternich, the Austrian Minister of State who acted as president of the Congress, is killed in a freak horse-riding accident. When Congress reconvenes after Napoleon’s defeat at Waterloo, several delegates, namely Prince Karl von Hardenberg of Prussia and Czar Alexander I, begin agitating for German unification once again.

Without the opposition of Metternich, the Congress votes narrowly to allow the unification, and, despite the best efforts of French diplomat Charles Talleyrand, the German Empire is granted the French province of Alsace-Lorraine. The new Empire is formed out of the merger of many smaller German states, including the dominant state, Prussia. Friedrich Wilhelm III, King of Prussia, becomes the German Emporer, called the Kaiser. Prince Karl von Hardenberg, the delegate to the Congress of Vienna, becomes the Chancellor.

1817: The Austrian opposition to the formation of the German Empire culminates in the Bavarian Rebellion. For the two years since the inception of the German Empire, as the Kaiser and Chancellor consolidated the power of the throne, the Catholic Austrian Empire had been trying to convince the Catholic German state of Bavaria to leave the German Empire. Hoping that it would weaken Germany and begin a chain reaction in the other Catholic states, the Austrians finally succeeded in convincing the state to secede from the Empire.

The ‘Bavarian Rebellion,’ however, did more to insure the future of the German Empire than any of the Kaiser’s power consolidation. Instead of the intended chain reaction of Catholic secessions, the neighboring states swiftly sent troops into Bavaria, where they arrested, killed, and defeated any and all rebels, including a good number of Austrian agitators. Following the rebellion, the Kaiser created the Imperial Council, composed of representatives from all the German states, which could, nominally, advise the Kaiser and Chancellor on future actions. Even recently returned Bavaria is allowed to send a representative, as a sign of good will towards the Bavarian people.

The German Empire, however, did not display the same good will and friendship towards their Austrian neighbors. To prevent further Austrian intervention, the German Empire threatened the Austrian Empire with war if further ‘meddling in German affairs’ continues. Although the display is a bluff, and the German Empire does not, at the moment, have the offensive military capability which they threaten to use. The Austrians, however, do not call the German bluff and, instead, back away, promising to allow the German Empire to exist in peace, for the time being anyway.

[PM Nixon]

No Time for Gloom – Founding the German Empire

1815: Napoleon Bonaparte escapes from Elba in March, returning to France by May. The Congress of Vienna goes into recess until Napoleon is returned to exile, during which time, Prince Klemens von Metternich, the Austrian Minister of State who acted as president of the Congress, is killed in a freak horse-riding accident. When Congress reconvenes after Napoleon’s defeat at Waterloo, several delegates, namely Prince Karl von Hardenberg of Prussia and Czar Alexander I, begin agitating for German unification once again.

Without the opposition of Metternich, the Congress votes narrowly to allow the unification, and, despite the best efforts of French diplomat Charles Talleyrand, the German Empire is granted the French province of Alsace-Lorraine. The new Empire is formed out of the merger of many smaller German states, including the dominant state, Prussia. Friedrich Wilhelm III, King of Prussia, becomes the German Emporer, called the Kaiser. Prince Karl von Hardenberg, the delegate to the Congress of Vienna, becomes the Chancellor.

1817: The Austrian opposition to the formation of the German Empire culminates in the Bavarian Rebellion. For the two years since the inception of the German Empire, as the Kaiser and Chancellor consolidated the power of the throne, the Catholic Austrian Empire had been trying to convince the Catholic German state of Bavaria to leave the German Empire. Hoping that it would weaken Germany and begin a chain reaction in the other Catholic states, the Austrians finally succeeded in convincing the state to secede from the Empire.

The ‘Bavarian Rebellion,’ however, did more to insure the future of the German Empire than any of the Kaiser’s power consolidation. Instead of the intended chain reaction of Catholic secessions, the neighboring states swiftly sent troops into Bavaria, where they arrested, killed, and defeated any and all rebels, including a good number of Austrian agitators. Following the rebellion, the Kaiser created the Imperial Council, composed of representatives from all the German states, which could, nominally, advise the Kaiser and Chancellor on future actions. Even recently returned Bavaria is allowed to send a representative, as a sign of good will towards the Bavarian people.

The German Empire, however, did not display the same good will and friendship towards their Austrian neighbors. To prevent further Austrian intervention, the German Empire threatened the Austrian Empire with war if further ‘meddling in German affairs’ continues. Although the display is a bluff, and the German Empire does not, at the moment, have the offensive military capability which they threaten to use. The Austrians, however, do not call the German bluff and, instead, back away, promising to allow the German Empire to exist in peace, for the time being anyway.


Well done, Walter. I totallly didn't even think of the religious differences of the two nations....very good observation from LDoc.

[Beck Reilly]

I've tried to create an alternate list of monarchs for Europe's four Empires. Key word: Alternate. I wanted to change the monarchies up comewhat. Could anyone tell me if they're the least bit plausible?

No Time for Gloom – Founding the German Empire

Austrian Empire

Francis I 1804 - 1835
Ferdinand I 1835 - 1848
Franz Joseph I 1848 - 1916
Rudolph I 1916 - 1933
Franz Ferdinand I 1933 - 1938
Ferdinand II 1938 - 1957
Franz Joseph II 1957 - 1977
Charles I 1977 -
Heir Apparent: Rudolph II

British Empire

George III 1760 - 1820
George IV 1820 - 1830
William IV 1830 - 1837
Ernest Augustus I 1837 - 1851
George V 1851 - 1878
Ernest Augustus II 1878 - 1923
Marie I 1923 - 1948
Frederick I 1948 - 1963
Margaret I 1963 -
Heir Apparent: Nicholas I

Anglo-German monarch line (I think Hannoverian ; starts with Ernest I) thrown out of German Empire before Victoria ascends.

German Empire

Friedrich Wilhelm III 1797 - 1840
Friedrich Wilhelm IV 1840 - 1861
Wilhelm I 1861 - 1888
Friedrich III 1888 - 1906
Wilhelm II 1906 - 1931
Wilhelm III 1931 - 1951
Victor I 1951 - 1994
Friedrich IV 1994 -
Heir Apparent: Friedrich V

Victor's real name = Louis Ferdinand

Russian Empire

Alexander I 1801 - 1825
Nicholas I 1825 - 1855
Alexander II 1855 - 1901
Vladimir I 1901 - 1909
Cyril I 1909 - 1938
Mary I 1938 - 1951
Emich I 1951 -
Heir Apparent: Andrew I



Research for this done with Royal Genealogy (http://www.royalist.info/royalist/index.html)

[DuQuense]

the German empire would compete with Sweden, Russia & GB for influence in the Baltics . eitheir taking then over, or the Baltic states may be able to play the Four off , allowing the Baltics to maintain some kind of Independence. Also a Unified Germany would have a great deal to say about Poland.

[Faeelin]

Humm. My problem is that, well, there wasn't that much support amongst people who mattered for a unified Germany. No Austrians want it, the French don't, Russia's ambivalent, Britain certainly doesn't...

Not to say it's impossible. You just need a different POD.

[Beck Reilly]

Well, actually, Alexander, the Tsar of Russia, was in favor of German unification and, according to what I've read on the subject, Metternich was a major, if not THE reason, that Germany wasn't unified...

[Faeelin]

Well, actually, Alexander, the Tsar of Russia, was in favor of German unification and, according to what I've read on the subject, Metternich was a major, if not THE reason, that Germany wasn't unified...

He was in favor of a lot of things, and none that seriously. Unifying germany would throw the princes behind napoleonn, something no one wanted.

[Beck Reilly]

I'm sorry. Who exactly would it throw behind Napoleon, exiled to an island in the South Pacific? Because of Metternich, the chief officer of the Congress and the driving force behind the decisions, had died, the Congress was delayed for about a month and a half, ending the Congress about a month AFTER Napoleon had been exiled.

[Faeelin]

I'm sorry. Who exactly would it throw behind Napoleon, exiled to an island in the South Pacific? Because of Metternich, the chief officer of the Congress and the driving force behind the decisions, had died, the Congress was delayed for about a month and a half, ending the Congress about a month AFTER Napoleon had been exiled.

The princes of Germany, who'd been promised that they could keep their thrones.

Saying "Hey, thanks for joining the march on paris. Now we're going to take your lands and set up an emperor under a protestant prussian."

[Beck Reilly]

That's really not too dissimilar to what they did in OTL 1871...

Maybe they'll allow the King of Bavaria to remain as a 'King,' in name at least. I mentioned below that, the Royal line in Hannover returned to Britain after being 'asked' (or threatened by the Prussian throne). They would be the only other powerful German opposition to unification. Maybe we could have a sort-of dual monarchy, with the Catholic 'King' (relatively powerless) in the south and the one with the real power, the Protestant Kaiser in the north.

[LDoc]

i doubt that would happen. The N. German states wouldn't stand for it and the people wouldn't either. No I think Southern germany will be a nearly constant thorn in the German side until their is some kind of strong unifying event not evolving a strong catholic or protestant nation (france anyone?). but that can't happen for a couple of decades until the new country gets all of the gears working right.

[Faeelin]

That's really not too dissimilar to what they did in OTL 1871....[/QUOTE[

Umm. I missed the french emperor who tried to conquer europe, and the year of warfare to drive him out of germany where the prince's defected.

You may be thinking of 1866, where prussia annexed much of north germany.


[QUOTE=Walter_Kaufmann]Maybe they'll allow the King of Bavaria to remain as a 'King,' in name at least. I mentioned below that, the Royal line in Hannover returned to Britain after being 'asked' (or threatened by the Prussian throne). They would be the only other powerful German opposition to unification. Maybe we could have a sort-of dual monarchy, with the Catholic 'King' (relatively powerless) in the south and the one with the real power, the Protestant Kaiser in the north.

Okay. So Prussia, bankrupt and exhausted, threatens the king of britain (who is the elector of hanover) with war if he doesn't give up his ancestral homeland.

"He's the new napoleon! Austria, you get silesia. Russia, you get prussia. Holland, you get the rhineland. Meet in Berlin!"


What about Austria? The death of a foreign minister doesn't mean they're no longer a powerful german nation.

[Beck Reilly]

Metternich was THE top minister of the Austrian Empire and the chief organizer. In fact, I don't remember which Emporer it was (the "I am the Emporer and I will have dumplings" one; the same guy that got thrown out on his ass), but Metternich effectively ran the entire Austrian government during the 30s and 40s.

Anyways, I'm sick of arguing. I'll tell you what I want and you tell me how to get there. A powerful, united German Empire before the Crimean War. One in good enough condition to take part in that war.

[Faeelin]

Metternich was THE top minister of the Austrian Empire and the chief organizer. In fact, I don't remember which Emporer it was (the "I am the Emporer and I will have dumplings" one; the same guy that got thrown out on his ass), but Metternich effectively ran the entire Austrian government during the 30s and 40s.

Anyways, I'm sick of arguing. I'll tell you what I want and you tell me how to get there. A powerful, united German Empire before the Crimean War. One in good enough condition to take part in that war.

You don't feel that establishing a strong power in central europe might alter the occurrence of a war almost 40 years down the line?

I've stated my view. Do some research into the clubs that developed in the confederation of the rhine; in some of the philosphies of the time, notably with the democrats. Find about the conditions in Westphalia.

Then concoct a bourguise rising which sees the prussian king as the messianic return of Frederick I of the Empire.

[Beck Reilly]

What?

No, I'm asking you how you think we could best get a powerful, united German Empire before the Crimean War, one in good enough condition to take part in that war. You don't believe my POD will work so I'm asking you for a different one, other than mine.

[Faeelin]

What?

No, I'm asking you how you think we could best get a powerful, united German Empire before the Crimean War, one in good enough condition to take part in that war. You don't believe my POD will work so I'm asking you for a different one, other than mine.

Argh. Nevermind. Continue if you wish. My comment was that I feel the war's not going to happen in TTL, and explained how to unify germany in this era.

[LDoc]

I can still see a war happening but with pretty different sides. Russia will need a central European empire, so either Austria or Germany. This will either mean that France will be either goaded into getting involve if they have a central European empire, or they'll simply sit tight and say let those crazies kill each other. The wild card is what Britian will do. They could still see a strong Russia with the Cremean as to big of a threat, or they could see aliegnating one of the central euro powers as a bigger threat and take a note out of their play book and sit, watch, and discusse.

[Norman]

Fourth actually :p they also tried to get help from Spain. Though it is a different Germany, OTL Prussia was much more sympathetic to the Union cause. It was part of the east-west division in giving their support to who in that war. Could Germany join the Union in the war against slavery? A way to keep France from gaining an ally in the America's and a slap in Napolean's face?

It would also be intresting to see Germany aligning with Russia in the Crimean War, though that is not your intention. Germany gains influence over Hungary, and the Balkans, perhaps annexing Slovenia, while Russia takes Constantinople. Now Britain and France have two new rivals in the Mediterranean.

This thread is interesting. What if the union wins the war and then turns its attention to Mexico where the French installed Maximillian is having his problems. If the German Empire is more established, maybe British interests combine with those of France and try to keep Mexico in their sphere, if only to keep it out of the US sphere (with its closeness to Prussia).

Could a 'first world war' have started at this point, with the US and German Empire against GB and France? What would be the outcome???

[Beck Reilly]

I would probably say Britain and France, which, at this point, are the greatest nations in the world. I don't rightly know though because I have been informed that my POD is not possible.

[LDoc]

I doubt will see a World War until the res tof the world has been divided between the variouse rulling parties (most likely France, UK, Germany, and later the US). Until then none of them want a wide scale war.

[Norman]

Even our modern World Wars didn't take up the entire world, (large parts yes, but not all). Seems to me that if England and France become allies against a US Prussian alliance, we can meet many of the criteria, particularly if we can drag Mexico into the picture.

[LDoc]

i doubt it most likely a small scale fight between france and the US. Mexico just isn't worth fighting over, while many saw WWI as the fight for European dominance.

[Beck Reilly]

I'm not sure I understand Faeelin's idea for uniting Germany.

So, can anyone suggest a POD that will leave a united German Empire a major power in 1850, other than mine, which, apparently, won't work?

[LDoc]

i think it works pretty well and their arn't exactly a lot of choices.

[Beck Reilly]

Okay. Well, then, if we all, or almost almost all, agree that this is the best of a limited range of choices, where do we go from here?

[Ace Venom]

Well, the tension between Austria and Germany seems pretty interesting. If the Bavarian conflict was any indication, the Habsburgs will most definitely be furious that influence in Germany has shifted away from Vienna.

You can probably expect Austria to ally with France some time in the future, but not immediately. I honestly think the 1820s would be peaceful...at least as much as a colonial rush could be. I wouldn't expect Germany to openly push for colonies until sometime in the 1830s because the German Empire is still busy building a stable economy (i.e. industrializing).

So German foreign policy in the 1820s may resemble Bismarck's foreign policy after the Franco-Prussian War. What goes on in Russia, the United Kingdom, the Ottoman Empire, the Netherlands and France is another matter entirely.

[LDoc]

firstly were going to have some "quit" years where Bavaria is going to be in extreme unrest while everyone is trying to get used to the idea of a united Germany. Austria will realise that winning through deception isn't going to work with them and might enter into a alliance with France to contain Germany on the continent, which could prove to be a catalyst for the Germans to begin to explore and start their ship building industry. Also the surging middle class is going to cray for more rights and power in the government with some bloody clashes between the aristocracy and the middle-class. if you want I can right some detailed time line for the next 5 or so years.

[Beck Reilly]

That'd be great, LDoc. As you can see, I don't do as well with times of peace. I promise, I'm much better when it comes to war and conflict.

And if anyone else wants to join in and add a few years, be my guest.

By the way, did you get a look at the monarchs? I wanted them to be different and I succeeded at that. I don't know if they're remotely possible though. ;)

[LDoc]

Royal lines get so mixed up i don't see why they couldn't, but yeah i'll get started on the peaceful years.

[Norman]

What if the Empire of the Germans does push for colonies, around 1820-1825, and in fact offers to buy Texas from either Spain or Mexico?

We know that a lot of the earlier settlers were German, and this was a period of time when many were emmigrating to the States. In addition, after the Mexican Independence from Spain they allowed extensive colonization from other countries, an offer taken up mostly by americans.

Having a colony on North American soil would probably put their ambitions on a collision course with both Great Britain and the US at different points of time.

[Grey Wolf]

Hmmm... I managed to miss this thread

First IMHO you need a different POD - but you COULD have that. Have Blucher delayed, or have Wellington lose Waterloo before his arrival. Then have the Prussians absolutely instrumental in defeating Napoleon - throw in another couple of battles, say Blucher first halts Napoleon after Napoleon triumphs at Waterlook, then he leads an advance necessitating another couple of battles under Prussian auspices.

Therefore, at Vienna there is a drastic shift in the relative positions of the powers - Britain is less, Prussia is more. Maybe combine that with Metternich's death (he was so shocked when Blucher defeated Napoleon that he fell under a carriage, lol). Because of longer French resistance, and perhaps a certain resilience showing that the French were more committed to Napoleon's return than in OTL, there is more of a desire to punish France than to simply hand it back intact to Louis XVIII for the second time

I still think that there needs to be an interim stage between having lots of small princes etc and having even a federal empire - if you look at OTL you have the North German Confederation fill that role. You could go down that route here

There are going to be historical changes with regard to other lands - quite possible a complete division of Saxony for example. OTL there was also a lot of horse-trading of lands including Austria, Prussia and Bavaria and things could go somewhat differently in these.

You would then need to go from this interim stage to a more unified one, requiring another POD.

But those ubiquitous butterflies like to play games. Britain has been harder hit in this TL. Perhaps its internal politics are really screwed up into the near future - maybe the working class pose such a threat that in the early 1830s Victoria's family has to leave their S London home one night, she catches a chill and dies. Enter Ernest Augustus

I think everyone needs clearing up on Ernest. Victoria was before him in the line of succession. Ernest was not knocked aside in Britain, nor did the fact of his accesion to Hannover make him invalid as King of Britain (William IV who just died had held both titles). What happened was that Victoria could not accede to Hannover because it did not allow female succession. Therefore the succession skipped to the next in line for that kingdom and that was Ernest. You thus HAVE to have Victoria die before Ernest can become King of England

Ernest is not a consensus figure, he was an extreme Protestant and Ultra Tory. Whilst I believe his accession in OTL would not have been as bad as some people predict, in an ATL with more internal difficulties it could very well lead to civil war, not just in Ireland but across the entire country. If he wins, then you have a radically different Britain

If you have a civil war, then Britain-in-Hannover is not able to project its influence into N Germany. Maybe the 1830s Russo-Turkish War develops into a longer and more extensive affair, the birth of Greece sucks everyone into a deeper war, and much of Europe is distracted. Prussia is in a position now to push harder, to maybe enact internal reforms of the Confederation and impose a more central authority. Remember Saxony doesn't exist, Hannover is still British and perhaps Prussia chooses the time to go to war with Denmark over Schleswig-Holstein

Enter into the 1840s, perhaps the Orleanists have been elevated to power in Paris earlier than OTL - if Charles X inherits a less stable throne from Louis XVIII then his attempts to rule with the Ultras may lead to an earlier and fully-fledged civil war. Have this occur in the late 1830s and Prussia's opportunity as above would be perfect

Maybe Prussia even forces Nassau and the Hesse's into the Confederation. This leaves you with only the Catholic South and the British Hannover remaining outside of Prussian dominance

IMHO 1848 is not likely to happen in this TL - the various late 1830s conflicts have sucked a lot of its juice out. Certain factors may occur as in OTL, but say Ferdinand of Orleans is still alive, then even if the economy of his father's governance cause an uprising, its probable that the monarchy survives with Ferdinand now king after his father's abdication. There may well be problems in N Italy with Austria, but these have roots of their own

Prussia has altered the reality in Germany so drastically that the spread of revolution across the states as in OTL is not likely to happen. Apart from the impetus in Paris being missing to the same extent, the small courts are subsumed into a larger entity and the cause of German unity already seems to have a favour, albeit one the Liberals will not much like !

What one has here is Prussia able to take advantage due an initial advantage that has weakened its rivals (Britain and France), and then later benefitting from either their distraction (war in the East) or internal problems to extend its own interests

If you want to complete German unification you have a problem - Britain in Hannover, and Bavaria especially. But do you need to complete it BEFORE a Russo-Turkish rematch ? Could not that war itself be the spur to bringing events within Germany to a conclusion ?

Grey Wolf

[Beck Reilly]

Great ideas, Grey. Perhaps there's a way we could have the German Empire united earlier. Is there any way we could get Germany united in the 16th, 17th, or 18th centuries?

I imagine one of the biggest problems in German unification is the differences between Protestant North and Catholic South. (Someone tell me if I'm wrong). So, considering this, maybe it would be easier to unite Germany if the Catholic South was not Catholic. Any possible way the Protestant Revolution could spread south? or is that ASB territory?

[Grey Wolf]

Great ideas, Grey. Perhaps there's a way we could have the German Empire united earlier. Is there any way we could get Germany united in the 16th, 17th, or 18th centuries?

I imagine one of the biggest problems in German unification is the differences between Protestant North and Catholic South. (Someone tell me if I'm wrong). So, considering this, maybe it would be easier to unite Germany if the Catholic South was not Catholic. Any possible way the Protestant Revolution could spread south? or is that ASB territory?

I certainly think thats Thirty Years War territory, at least. I don't see much likelihood afterwards, but admit I am journeying outside of my areas of so-called expertise

Regarding the religious divide, this is definitely a problem for unification. I would add into the mix Bavarian identity as well - it was one of the original dukedoms of Germany, and has been a major power and a de facto independent one for as long as any state in the area. Its not about to accept absorption without beng in extremis.

Interestingly, during the Crimean War the Prime Minister of Bavaria, bemoaning the inability of the German Confederation to act in a unified manner, pointed out that Bavaria was the equal of a Belgium or a Portugal and wished to be as able as those powers to act freely and in is own interests on the international stage

Grey Wolf

[LDoc]

The south wont turn Protestent after the 30 years war for the simply reason taht Austria wont let them. Any threat to Catholic Bavaria and Austria will almost be forced to stop the threat and create a whole new series of religouse wars in the processes, and everyone knows this.

[Grey Wolf]

The south wont turn Protestent after the 30 years war for the simply reason taht Austria wont let them. Any threat to Catholic Bavaria and Austria will almost be forced to stop the threat and create a whole new series of religouse wars in the processes, and everyone knows this.

What do you mean 'everyone knows this' and why use that tone with me ?

If the ATL is changing the whole dynamics of the Thirty Years War and obviously the outcome then you ALREADY HAVE the new series of religious wars, they simply occur instead of the OTL ones

Grey Wolf

[LDoc]

i mean the other countries know this not the people on the board my fault. I also don't see Germany uniting in the religouse wars because their are simply to many outside influnces fighting in Germany. The Swedes don't want a strong southern neighbor and the French not a strong eastern neighbor. If the germans are forced to fight alone they will simply be decimated as they were before the other nations intervened.

[Faeelin]

From a post on AH.com I did, about an earlier united Germany.

1807- Treaty of Tilsit. Prussia abolished. Britain captures Copenhagen.

Junot invades Portugal in November; the King sails for Brazil. Jerome gets his kingdom in Westphalia, which he bleeds dry.

1808- Continuing slapstick events in Spain. He rebukes Charles IV for conspiring to prevent the marriage of Prince Ferdinand and Napoleon’s niece, and tells him that Ferdinand is plotting to overthrow him which he is. With the Bourbon’s at each other’s throats, Napoleon moves 180,000 men into Spain in February. Passions boil over at Aranjuez, where a mob of soldiers, peasants, and stable boys force Charles IV to dismiss Godoy and abdicate in favor of Ferdinand IV.

He then offers to mediate between the Bourbons. They travel to Bayonne, where after a week, Ferdinand passes the crown back to Charles who gives it to Napoleon, who then gives it to his brother Joseph.

The Spanish, predictably, take the view that they don’t want a Corsican as their king. Murat suppresses risings in Madird, Badajoz falls to the mob, and Valencia, Asturias, and Seville rebel. When Murat complains about supplies, Napoleon lectures him on how a “general at the head of 50,000 troops should take things instead of asking for them”. Inspired as much by depression as the changes the French want, the entire country goes up in flames. 19,000 Frenchmen actually surrender, and are promptly crucified/tortured/castrated.

Resistance spreads to Portugal, and Wellesley defeats Junot.

This year also sees the Erfurt Conference, in which Napoleon tries to woo the Tsar. It fails miserably, due to economic and political differences. The Kings of Bavaria, Saxony, Wuttemburg, and the dukes and princes of the Confederation are there, to pay homage to their overlord.

He attempts to marry the Grand Duchess Catherine, and it fails.

Thus, Napoleon returns to Spain on the 29th of October with 160,000 men. The 3rd Polish Light Horse is forced to charge the Spanish guns, giving us a preview of OTL’s Charge of the Light Brigade. Only in December does Madrid fall. Napoleon responds to the revolt by putting in sweeping reforms, including the abolishment of feudalism, the Bourbon taxation system, and the inquisition. When some notables protest to the presence of hundreds of thousands of pillaging Imperial troops on Spanish territory, he informs them that “your grandchildren will bless me as their redeemer”.

They are, needless to say, less than impressed.

He finishes up the year chasing the British, who withdraw out of Spain.

1809- Austria prepares for war. They have four reasons for this:

1) The Emperor is busy in Spain.
2) The Czar won’t help Napoleon.
3) France was wear-weary.
4) Finally, there is the belief in a nascent nationalism in Germany and Austria.

Despite Emperor Francis’s best efforts, Austria is drawn into the war. Due to butterflies, their campaign plan isn’t changed, and remains the original plan: they hope to spark rebellion in the Confederation of the Rhine by reaching the river.

Napoleon’s errors are largely due to his assumption that the war would be fought in Italy again, and put his main effort there.

On April 9 the Austrians march, and they reach Frankfurt on the 25th. Napoleon fights the Battle of Frankfurt, and Charles and the Emperor end up slogging it out in southern Germany. Buy July 14th, the Emperor has his decisive victory. Britain tries and fails to liberate Holland at Walcheren. The Treaty of Schonbrunn gives France Carinthia, Carniola, most of Croatia, and Bavaria gains Salzburg. The Grand Duchy of Warsaw gains northern and eastern Galicia, Krakow, and Lublin. Austria has to pay a huge indemnity, limit its army to 150,000 men, and disgorge Silesia to the Kingdom of Saxony. He marries into the Hapsburg family as in OTL.

1810-Holland is annexed to the France. The Pope is imprisoned. Catalonia, Aragon, Navarre, and Guipuzcoa are placed under direct French control. Massena’s invasion of Portugal in September fails, losing 5,000 men. Bernadotte becomes the King of Sweden as in OTL, which also controls Pomerania.

1811- Napoleon famously warns the Russian ambassador in Paris that he has 800,000 troops. When the Ambassador replies that Russia will not submit, Napoleon states that “If you’re counting on allies, where are they?” Wellington advances on Madrid.

1812- War of 1812 breaks out. Napoleon invades Russia, with Austria providing 30,000 men. Frederick of (East) Prussia joins the Tsar. With the aim of preventing the Russian army in the north from meeting with the one in the south, he pushes along on the “Orsha Land bridge”, marching straight into the heart of Russia. The Czar’s army withdraws to the East. The great battles of Boredino and Smolensk are the toughest the Emperor ever had, and by the time he reaches Moscow, he only has 160,000 men left out of a force which once numbered half a million.

As the remaining Frenchmen retreat west, and the prisoners captured by the Russians are tortured in various unpleasant ways, Napoleon travels back to Paris.

Wellington begins moving into Spain. There’s also the Papal headache, and Napoleon tries to come to a new Concordat. The pope signs it but then is convinced otherwise.

1813- The Russians cross the Vistula and occupy Warsaw on the 7th. Frederick William of Prussia joins the war against Eugene, whose Duchy of Brandenburg is now the battleground.

However, with the partition of Prussia, there are no 80,000 rack troops to be put on the field. Bernadotte does have his 28,000 Swedes, of course. In France, resistance to the draft takes on a political movement, and the draft dodgers have widespread support. Thanks to Herculean tasks, he manages to call up 510,000 men. But the new army is very poor, especially in cavalry.

Napoleon fights the 1813 campaignb etween the elbe and the Oder, using the cities of Magdeburg and Hamburg as pivots. He relieves 150,000 French troops bottled up in the Vistula fortresses and turns Kutusov’s flank. The Confederation reluctantly throws itself into the war with Bonaparte. Lutzen is a fierce battle, but Napoleon triumphs, almost encircling the Russian army, but the lack of horse prevents his victory. The Russians retire to the Vistula, having lost 30,000 men, compared to the Emperor’s 10,000. The Russians get 13,000 more reinforcements in May. Napoleon attempts a grand encirclement at Warsaw which fails, thanks largely to Ney. (Some things never change, eh?) Duroc is killed in the battle.

Metternich then offers to mediate. Each side regards it as a lull; Russia feels that it can’t continue the war successfully unless Austria joins it, and France needs Austria to win. Austria demands the restoration of Illyria and Italy, Russia demands the dissolution of Poland, and the neutralization of Germany. Napoleon refuses, but Metternich is not yet confident enough in the abilities of the Austrians to join the war . The armistice lasts until September 14, when word reaches them of the war in Spain.

By June 20, Wellington has won the victory of Vittoria, and the French were forced to abandon 150 guns, equipment, paintings, money, and all the treasures of Madrid.The French flee to the Pyrenees, Beehtoven composes Wellington’s Victory, but he cannot press on into Aragon. San Sebastian falls on the 1st of September, to an orgy of rape and pillage by the British army.

The campaigns of 1813 end with Europe exhausted.

1814- The 1814 campaign opens up with the entrance of Austria into the war. Sweden has 50,000 men, Austria 317,000, and Russia 254,000. This totals some 600,000 men, opposed by Napoleon’s 600,000. The Army of the North is formed under Bernadotte, the Army of Silesia is formed under Charles, the Russian army of Poland, and an army of Bohemia.

The Emperor’s strategy is to oppose them with his main force of 250,000 in seven corps, while 120,000 men under Oudinot would advance on Berlin and deal with the Army of the North. Napoleon tries to use his force to pin the Allied armies down, but each individual army withdraws before him. When he marches against the Army of Poland, the Army of Bohemia marches on Dresden. When he tries to flank the army of Bohemia, he has to withdraw to Berlin to stop the Army of Poland from taking the city.

On the 5th of May the Allies try to blast their way into Berlin, but Napoleon launches a counterattack to regain all the grund lost during the day. By the third day of fighting the Battle of Berlin, the Allies had lost 38,000 casualties to the French 10,000. IT was now the Czar’s turn to appeal the Emperor to continue the battle.

But Oudinat had been defeated; on the road to Danzig and MacDonaald had lost the battle in Silesia. Napoleon has to withdraw to Dresden to resist being encircled, and Berlin is liberated in July.

Meanwhile the Duke of Wellington is marching into Southern France. Bordeaux opens its gates to Wellington’s army, and Toulon falls in May. Soult fights desperately to defend Toulouse while the people of Toulouse openly discuss seceding from France to form a “kingdom of the Midi” under the Bourbons in the event of peace.

It’s the invasion of southern France that shakes Napoleon out of his stupor. He begins making proposals to Austria to break them out of the alliance: He will give them Venezia, Ancona, Illyria, and Tuscany in exchange for peace with him. When peace is reached between him and Russia, he will step down from the throne and place his son on it with his wife, Marie-Louise, on the council of regents.

The Austrians consider it, but ultimately reject it. Still, they are much less inclined to support the war.

We finally see Murat switch sides, a bit later than OTL, in July. It is thanks to him that Eugene is forced to withdraw from his kingdom. Murat’s troops are perceived as saviors by the properties classes in Tuscany and Rome, who now turn to Murat to restore order. Veneto is abandoned in August. Brescia, however, holds out until November of 1814.

(Incidentally, I’m writing this while listening to 1812. Lots of fun).

1815- Early in the year, the British liberate Genoa, which promptly collapses. Soult manages to defeat the Duke of Wellington in his advance on Paris from the South and retakes Bordeaux, but the British. The Battle of Leipzig is fought in a blinding snowstorm, and Napoleon’s defeat there seals the fate of the Confederation of the Rhine. Hamburg falls in March.

Louis XVIII returns to Marseilles in April, and the Royalists there begun playing a new song, “The Return of the King.” He turns out to be an old windbag and not well liked, but he’s not Napoleon and he’s not causing the port to blockaded by the British.

It’s helped that The Tsar now enthusiastically supports Vom Stein’s plans for Germany under his Central Administrative Council. Two years of war with the princes has disillusioned him and made him less than desirable for peace. Vom Stein becomes the de facto ruler of Nassau, Hesse-Darmstadt and Baden in July, along with the other members of his Council. A revolt in favor of the deposed elector breaks out in Westphalia, which ends up leading to a widespread movement in Berg and eventually into Holland as regiments desert in droves to Vom Stein.

Amsterdam welcomes the Prince of Orange back in August, a Spanish style war breaks out on Cevennes and Central France. There are poor harvests through Europe in this year, although Napoleon’s victory at the 2nd Battle of Frankfurt stop the Allies from crossing the Rhine. It is after the stunning battle, when the Emperor is in his top form, that he drinks too much wine and dies.

1816- With Britain’s national debt at over 900,000,000 pounds sterling, the Emperor dead, and the Tsar becoming impatient and increasingly desirous to play Napoleon, the Congress of Vienna is formed.

France establishes a regency under Eugene de Beauharnais, Marie-Louise, and Lucien Bonaparte. It keeps Wallonia, Savoy, and some of the Rhineland (notably the Southern Palatinate) but is forced to cede the rest to Vom Stein’s Central Administrative Council.

Austria gains Bologna and Tuscany as parts of the Italian Kingdom (replacing OTL’S Lombard-Venetian one). Sardinia gains Genoa as compensation for Savoy.

Britain keeps whatever colonies it pleases, as in OTL. This includes notably Singapore and Ceylon. Hanover is restored.

The Kingdom of Prussia cedes East Prussia to the Russians in return for a slice of Saxony. Sweden is not forced to give up Pomerania, however. The Kingdom of Prussia is renamed the Kingdom of Brandenburg. Austria keeps Silesia.

In keeping with the policy of setting up a series of strong states around France’s borders, the Dutch receive Flanders. (Which is likely to prove more stable than all of Belgium).

The question, of course, is “Who will keep the watch on the Rhine?”, as Alexander famously asks. This is compounded by the fact that none of the Allies really trust the princes. Bavaria collaborated, Saxony collaborated, Hanover was overrun, Prussia collapsed like a house of cards, etc.

It’s eventually decided to have them form a German federation. Austria is excluded from the organization, lest it dominate it as well. (And Austria isn’t especially trusted. Too many ties to the French).

So, Vom Stein gains control of Westphalia, the Rhineland minus the French territories, Baden, Hesse-Darmstadt, and Nassau (Whose princes are deposed after failing to meet the demands of the Central Administrative Council, and as punishment for collaborating to the end. They retain their titles, of course).

This state is part of a Federation with Saxony, Brandenburg, Wuttemburg, Bavaria, Mecklenburg,Oldenburg, and the other states of the Federation. (Bavaria was almost tossed to Austria, actually, but that would’ve made it too strong).

Russia receives all of the Polish territories, naturally.

There. Germany has a unified state in the west, with only hanover, brandenburg, and silesia missing.

[Beck Reilly]

Wow. That's very detailed. Oh, wait, you edited it.

[Faeelin]

Wow. That's very detailed. Oh, wait, you edited it.

Yeah, and it also proves my point. To get a unified germany, I had to keep the bonapartes in power in france, give them wallonia and savoy, and make the war last longer. Then I had to have the german populace become anti-monarchist.

In other words, by the time you unify germany,a crimean war is very unlikely.

A european war as Napoleon's son tries to reach the rhine and the Russians move on constantinople, now...