Roman Timeline

[DominusNovus]

I've decided to re-do my original Roman Empire AH . The premise (library of alexandria not destroyed, which butterflies into a successful roman conquest of Germania) and the general idea are the same, this version is just more detailed.

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This timeline diverges from ours in the winter of the year 47 BC. At that time, Julius Caesar, dictator of Rome, was fighting King Ptolemy XIII of Egypt. While in battle, Caesar's forces set fire to Ptolemy's fleet, anchored in the harbor of Alexandria. The fire soon spread to the Museum of Alexandria and a dockside warehouse full of scrolls ready for export. The Museum of Alexandria was actually more of a University and survived the fire fairly intact, except for the loss of its well known Library (which is more well known than the Museum now). If the wind was blowing in a different direction that day, the Library might very well have been saved.

The effects of this divergence might not be readily apparent and history would march on almost virtually identical to ours. After all, there is some dispute over whether or not the Library was actually destroyed at this time. So, it is safe to say that, for the most part, there would be no change to history for some time. Julius Caesar is still murdered on the Ides of March, 44 BC. The Civil Wars still continue until Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus defeats Marcus Antonius at the Battle of Actium and becomes the first Roman Emperor and assumes the name Augustus. His early reign procedes as it did in our time, until the year 4 BC.

In 4 BC, the Legate of Syria was one Publius Quinctillius Varus, who was finishing up his administration there. Varus was related to Augustus by marriage and was a good friend of the Emperor. In our history, he would go on to command the legions in Germania, get ambushed by a Germanian warlord named Armenius, thus ruining any hope of Roman expansion into the area. However, in this timeline, he decides to take a trip to Egypt before returning to Rome. While in Egypt, he takes a tour of the Nile and drowns. This event, though less remarkable than the saving of the Library, is ultimately more momentous.

With Varus out of the picture, in AD 6, Augustus will appoint Tiberius Claudius Nero, currently next in line to become Emperor, to pacify Germania Magna. Tiberius' nephew and adopted son Germanicus Julius Caesar, who happens to be next in line after Tiberius to become Emperor. While in Germania, they are also charged with the task of conquering the Marcomanni tribe residing in Bohemia. Though there were some difficulties, such as when the supposedly pacified tribes rose up while the bulk of the Roman forces were fighting the Marcomannni, by the time Augustus dies in AD 14, the area is largely secured and a string of forts line the Albis (Elbe) river. Germanicus is left behind to crush the Quadi, a tribe allied to the Marcomanni, while Tiberius returns to Rome to become Emperor.

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What'dya think so far?

[Beck Reilly]

Why is the non-destruction of the Library the POD?

Why does Tiberius Claudius Nero do much better than Publius Varus? Varus was known to be a competant commander who messed up in the Teutoburg.

Evidence: Commanders who are used to losing don't commit suicide after losing

[DominusNovus]

I picked the Library for two reasons:
1) Its a literal butterfly event. I like to picture a butterfly flapping its wings a couple extra times and saving the library in the process.
2) Eventually, the sheer bulk of the knowledge contained there will help with progress and technology.

Germania Magna was supposedly a peaceful province that was pacified years before Varus shows up. Varus was sent there because he was a competent administrator who could handle minor military situations that might come up (he had previously been appointed to Africa and Syria, both peaceful border provinces as Germania was supposed to be). Varus commited suicide not because he wasn't used to losing (he didn't have a particularly amazing and eventful military career anyway), but because he screwed up so royally. Between Tiberius and Germanicus, both good commanders, things well wouldn've gone diferently. Also, I forgot to mention that the Pannonian revolt never happens, which also damaged Roman operations in Germania.

[DuQuense]

Elbe River is OTL west Germany, This also gives Rome south Denmark :) . How does this change the whole Scandia thing 1000 years on :confused:

[DominusNovus]

Elbe River is OTL west Germany, This also gives Rome south Denmark :) . How does this change the whole Scandia thing 1000 years on :confused:
hmmm? Could you be more specific?

[carlton_bach]

The Elbe actually made up the border between West and East Germany for part of its length, but using it as a frontier will only give the Romans very small pieces of what was considered Denmark for very short time periods. The bulk of Denmark lies well north of the Elbe (trust me. I live here).

However, if the Romans had conquered Germania (and you really wouldn't need to change the commander, just give them a little more luck, though Tiberius would make a good choice) I would expect that to have strong repercussions for Scandinavia. After all, the connection to the Baltic is very short and I can see the Romans being much happier with this barely tidal inland sea than they were with the North Sea and Atlantic. Given the amber interest, Roman traders could range as far as Finland and Russia, Roman warships could project power into the area, and Germany itself could become a Roman breadbasket (once the agricultural methods from Gaul get exported). German lords are probably amenable to the life of settled landowning squires with military obligations of some sort. That kind of model would very likely appeal to Scandinavian chiefs as well. Maybe they'd petition to be let in?

[DominusNovus]

The Elbe actually made up the border between West and East Germany for part of its length, but using it as a frontier will only give the Romans very small pieces of what was considered Denmark for very short time periods. The bulk of Denmark lies well north of the Elbe (trust me. I live here).

However, if the Romans had conquered Germania (and you really wouldn't need to change the commander, just give them a little more luck, though Tiberius would make a good choice) I would expect that to have strong repercussions for Scandinavia. After all, the connection to the Baltic is very short and I can see the Romans being much happier with this barely tidal inland sea than they were with the North Sea and Atlantic. Given the amber interest, Roman traders could range as far as Finland and Russia, Roman warships could project power into the area, and Germany itself could become a Roman breadbasket (once the agricultural methods from Gaul get exported). German lords are probably amenable to the life of settled landowning squires with military obligations of some sort. That kind of model would very likely appeal to Scandinavian chiefs as well. Maybe they'd petition to be let in?

Would the Romans be interested in Scandinavia?

[DuQuense]

While the Roman built a line a forts and the Soldiers only crossed the Frointier to repond to attacks, the Merchants and Traders passed beyond. As such the influence of Rome traveled far past the offical frontier. if Rome gets to the Elbe,~0025~0050, the Roman Push north of the Danube [OTL Austria] would also be more sucessfull. While whe arn't talking Legions on the Bug or Volga rivers, the area would be penertated by Roman infulence. This would include Denmark, The Daneish Empire would Be a classical style "Empire".

[DominusNovus]

Ok, here's our next update (I'm including part of the last paragraph of the last post, as I added a bit a information near the end, about how Germania Magna was organized).

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Though there were some difficulties, such as when the supposedly pacified tribes rose up while the bulk of the Roman forces were fighting the Marcomannni, by the time Augustus dies in AD 14, the area is largely secured and a string of forts line the Albis (Elbe) river. Germania Magna would now be organized into the provinces of Marcomania to the south and Cheruscia to the north. Germanicus is left behind to crush the Quadi, a tribe allied to the Marcomanni, while Tiberius returns to Rome to become Emperor.

Tiberius Claudius Nero ruled the Empire from AD 14 to AD 24, when he died of illness. His reign was most notable for the campaigns against the Quadi (conducted by Germanicus) and a major revolt in Achaea (Greece) and Macedonia. The campaign was a resounding success, resulting in the expansion of the Roman Empire to the Viadrus (Oder) river. Germanicus proved himself as a very capable and shrewd commander in the fall of AD 22. Several conquered tribes (most notably, the Suebi, Semnones, Chauci, and Boii), as well as some as yet unconquered tribes (such as the Teutones and Carpi) assaulted the main Roman force, at the small outpost of Verbonia, near the mouth of the Viadrus. The Legions only had the support of one tribe, ironically the Quadi, which they had been sent to conquer in the first place (one account states that Germanicus himself was saved in battle by the heroic efforts of one young Quadi warrior). Though the numbers and terrain were against him, Germanicus developed a clever strategy. He ordered his forces to not attack the Suebi or Chauci forces. As the battle wore on, the other tribes noticed this and grew suspicious. A few well placed spies later, and the coalition crumbled into attacking each other, making for an easy Roman victory. In fact, reports say that there were more coalition casualties from attacking each other than there were from the Romans.

Upon their surrender, all of the opposing tribes were essentially deported to the far reaches of the empire as slaves. The Quadi, meanwhile, were rewarded for their loyalty and many Quadi chieftains soon found themselves in important positions in the new province of Quadia (the southern region of the newly conquered territory). To their north would be Langobardia. Though the Langobardi were actually a tribe native to the west side of the Albis, many of them had joined the Legions in the Quadi campaign (though their absence during the battle of Verbonia is suspicious) and were now living in the area. Further to the north would be Anglia (Denmark). Though this region was still unconquered, Germanicus was preparing a punitive campaign against the Teutones and their Cimbri allies. This campaign would be largely complete by the time he was recalled to Rome in AD 24, mainly due to the fact that the bulk of the Teutones' forces had been destroyed at Verbonia and the assistance of the very compliant Angli tribe. Still, the region would not be completely pacified for a few more years.

Meanwhile, to the south, there were problems in Greece. The governor of Achaea, Tiberius Julius Magnus, was not very liked by the people. The main reason was that the taxes he imposed on the people were too high, though he had some personal traits that weren't very admirable either (one -almost certainly exaggerated- account states that he raped a hundred upper-class young ladies). Whatever the exact causes were, Julius Magnus soon found himself murdered by a mob in AD 19. Soon, all of Achaea, as well as much of Macedonia were in revolt. The revolt lasted for 4 years, finally being crushed in December of AD 22 when Thessalonica, the last rebel holdout, fell. The entire population was supposedly enslaved and replaced with people from Italia, though this is probably an exaggeration. Still, the city did become an enclave of Latin-speakers for awhile, in an almost universally Greek-speaking region. The revolt also kept any Legions in the area from assisting Germanicus at Verbonia. Other than that, the major significance of the revolt is that the Kingdom of Dacia to the north had supported the rebels. This would soon prove fatal for the Dacians.

However, before anything could be done, Tiberius died and Germanicus returned to Rome to become the third Emperor. Tiberius' reign was most noted for the actions of others (Germanicus of Julius Magnus), though he was a fairly competent ruler. However, he had the unfortunate fate to be emperor right after Augustus, arguable the greatest Rome ever saw. Had Tiberius ruled during later years, when the Empire was collapsing, he might have been more appreciated. As it was, he was regarded as an average, almost mediocre ruler. He left the Empire in the capable hands of Germanicus, who soon began plans to invade impetuous (and relatively wealthy) Kingdom of Dacia.

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DuQuense, I guess Denmark will be an actual part of the empire. :D
Oh, and about Legions on the Bug River, we just might see some on the Vistula River soon. ;)

[DominusNovus]

Any thoughts before I continue?

[Diamond]

Any thoughts before I continue?

Nope, other than to say good work, and looking forward to more.

[Straha]

as nice as it is to see you comment on the roman TL.. I'd like to see the different 20th century TL reposted and continued.... ;)

[MerryPrankster]

This is an interesting TL; keep it up.

[Diamond]

as nice as it is to see you comment on the roman TL.. I'd like to see the different 20th century TL reposted and continued.... ;)

I don't think Dominus would appreciate your hijacking his thread/TL to ask about mine... ;)

And r.e. my TL - would you rather see it posted quickly, or posted right? Be patient, I'm working on it.

[Straha]

posted RIGHt and in reasonable time too ;)

[DominusNovus]

Next update.

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Germanicus Julius Caesar ruled from AD 22 until AD 51. His reign would see the conquest of Dacia and the restoration of the Kingdom of Judea. He spent most of his reign outside of Rome, usually campaigning, often accompanied by his eldest son, Drusus Julius Caesar, leaving the day to day affairs in the city to his younger brother, Claudius Nero Germanicus, and his son, Nero Julius Caesar.

The Dacian campaign began in the year AD 24 as Germanicus led his legions over the Danube river into Dacia. Supporting him was an army of Quadi auxiliaries and Carpi allies. Allied with Dacians were Metatiastae, Costoboci, and the Roxolani. The Quadi and Carpi mainly faced the Metatiastae and the Costoboci, while the Romans fought the Dacians and Roxolani. The Dacians surrendered in the year 29, and the main Roman force went to assist their allies, while the remainder continued to fight the Roxolani. The barbarians manage to hold down the main force long enough for the Dacians to rise up and attack the smaller Roman army left behind against the Roxolani, and wipe them out. The situation seemed dire, but the Costoboci and Metatiastae were nearly defeated by this point, and they don't hold out much longer. By the time the Dacians and Roxolani reach them, the Romans, Quadi and Carpi are ready and waiting. The campaign again turns in favor of the Romans and the Dacians again surrender in 34, and the Roxolani in 37. The newly conquered territory is divided into the provinces of Dacia Superior and Inferior in the southern central region, Roxolania in the northeast, and Costobocia in the north-northwestern area, as well as the formalization of the Carpi lands into the province of Carpia. Germanicus spends the next two years fortifying the new border along the Tyras (Dniester) river before returning to Rome. Germanicus would leave Rome in AD 41, to conduct of tour of the border provinces of the empire, starting in Anglia and ending in Syria in AD 48.

While Germanicus was away, Claudius was responsible for most of the administrative details of the empire. Nero died in 30, due to excessive drinking (he died much the same way as did Attila the Hun). A close friend of Claudius and Germanicus was Herod Agrippa, a member of the royal family of Judea, a former ally of Rome that had been absorbed into the Empire. Herod's lifelong ambition was the independence of Judea, with him as King. His loyalty and amiable relations with the Imperial family would prove to be the means to this end. in AD 34, by Imperial decree, the Kingdom of Judea would be restored as a client state of Rome, though this new kingdom didn't actually include the region of Judea. The usurper Herod Antipas would try to claim the throne in AD 39, though he ultimately fails. Agrippa sends him as a prisoner to Rome, where Germanicus, back from Dacia, exiles him to Macromania. To shore up the Kingdom, Germanicus adds Peraea and Galilee, and later, in the year 48, adds Judea and Samaria. This restores the totality of the Kingdom of Judea and creates a staunchly allied client state out of what had been a troublesome and rebellious province.

Germanicus went down in history as one of Rome greatest military leaders, and a competent administrator, though the latter was mainly due to the actions of his brother, Claudius. His military exploits were on par with Julius Caesar himself, and Germanicus actually conquered more new territory for Rome than Caesar did. Germanicus left the empire to his son, Drusus Julius Caesar, whose reign would be cut tragically short.

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Comments?

[DominusNovus]

Guess not. Well, here's the next installment.

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Drusus ruled Rome from late AD 51 to early AD 54. During his principate, King Herod would die, an agricultural revolution would be born in Cheruscia, and the Vandali would launch a major raid into Langobardia.

King Herod Agrippa died in AD 53. He saw to the restoration of the Kingdom and was loved by his people for it. His line would rule Judea for nearly 300 years, producing many good kings. Herod also persecuted the Christians in Judea with much vigor, as did many of his successors (often Christians were more persecuted by the Jews than they were by the Romans).

During AD 53, an Alexandrian by the name of Heron (or Hero) visited a friend in Cheruscia [just to note, nobody is sure when Heron actually lived. I've seen reports ranging from various times in the first century BC, to the second century AD. This timeframe is the most likely though]. Heron had recently invented the aeolipile, a primitive steam engine, and an overshot waterwheel (there is evidence that they existed previously, but Heron showed that overshot waterwheels were the most efficient). He also hoped to one day apply the aeolipile to the same use as a waterwheel, though he never did create a practical design (but filled the Library of Alexandria with various ingenious but flawed ideas and designs). Heron had been corresponding with his friend for some time and decided to visit him at his large villa. While there, Heron hears of his friend's troubles, which Heron, being the inventor he is, does his best to address them. Heron improves on the crop rotation method, has some waterwheels built on the villa, and invented the moldboard plow, to effectively work the soil. The failing villa soon becomes the most productive in the region, and the methods spread. Within a few years, the population of Roman Europe expands greatly and begins to truly be Romanized.

Also during this time, the Vandali had been raiding the border provinces, which finally prompted action on the part of Drusus. Though the raiders are defeated and sent running back beyond the Viadrus, Drusus is hit in the left eye by a stray arrow and dies in battle, snuffing out his plans to invade the Vandali.

Drusus' reign was fairly uneventful until the end, so it is difficult to judge what his ability. The principate would pass to his uncle, Claudius, who proved to be a surprisingly apt ruler.

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Any comments this time?

[MerryPrankster]

I assume the "Vandali" are our old friends the Vandals. Will we see them again?

[DominusNovus]

I assume the "Vandali" are our old friends the Vandals. Will we see them again?
You sir, are correct! The -i ending is simply one of the Latin plurals. You'll see them again soon. They did just kill the Emperor, after all.

[DominusNovus]

Am I the only one (even though it was my idea) that thinks that having Hero start the agricultural revolution a bit of a stretch?

[DominusNovus]

And our next update...

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Claudius Nero Germanicus reigned from AD 54 to AD 65. While he ruled Rome, the Vandali were conquered and work was begun of the Claudian Amphitheater. Claudius also made several reforms to the government and enfranchised many provincials.

Claudius' decision to campaign against the Vandali is intriguing. On the one hand, he felt that Rome had expanded enough along that border and that his time would be better spent focusing on administrative details, or at least conquering Britannia, which he saw as more valuable. On the other hand, the Vandals did just kill the emperor, and many cried for revenge, plus the Vistula river would make a better border, as its source was close to that of the Tyras, providing an almost complete natural border. Claudius eventually did decide to attack, and in the year AD 55, the campaign had begun. The Romans only had the Carpi to the south as allies, while the Vandali had rallied the Lugii, Burgundiones, Lemovii, and Rugii to their cause. Just beyond the Vistula, the Gothones and Sciri had pledged not to interfere, but that was the extent of Roman support in the region. The early campaign focused mainly Lugii and the Burgundiones, to divide the Vandali from their allies, while the Carpi kept the Vandali from threatening the Roman thrust. This phase was finished by AD 57, at which point the Romans focused on the Rugii (defeated by 58), leaving the Lemovii completely surrounded by Romans. They held out until AD 60, and the Vandali were defeated later that year. Though the campaign was relatively quick (5 years compared to the Dacian campaign's 13), it was one of the bloodier wars fought by Rome against the barbarians (about 30% more casualties than the Dacian campaign), which is surprising when one considers how relatively lightly populated the area was. Because of this (and due to a nasty winter that Claudius experience while he was touring the forces), Claudius decreed that Rome should expand no further in this direction. The Legions agreed holeheartedly. The conquered territory was divided up into the provinces of Lemovia (in the north), Burgundia (in the center), and Vandalia (in the south).

Work was begun on the Claudian Amphitheater when Claudius returned from the campaign shortly in AD 58. It would not be completed until AD 72, and was the largest amphitheater in the Empire, capable of holding 80,000 spectators (compared to the 55,000 person capacity of OTL's Flavian Amphitheater).

While Empreor, Claudius reformed much of the empire, centralizing it while simultaneously increasing the standing of the provinces, by appointing several provincials to the senate, as well as granting citizenship to many loyal and romanized provincials. He also converted several client kingdoms into provinces, including Mauretania, Lycia, Noricum, Tracia, Carpia, and Anglia.

Claudius would eventualy die of old age in AD 65 (at 75 years old) and leave the empire to his son Tiberius Claudius Vandalius, named in honor of his father's conquests (OTL's Britannicus). Claudius would be remembered well by the provinces and lower classes, but not very well by the Senate and aristocracy.

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Any comments this time?

[Diamond]

Now, Roman history is not one of my stronger points, hence my lack of constructive criticism.

Just one thought here: it seems that the Emperors have started a tradition of almost complete independence from the wishes of the Senate. Of course it was much the same in OTL, but here they seem even more arrogant. So there appears to be three roads:
-the Emperors cave in and become puppets of the Senate
-the power of the Emperors keeps growing until they eventually become equivalent to the God-Pharoahs of Egypt
-a mish-mash roughly equal to OTL.

The position of Emperor does seem more stable though; it doesn't appear that this TL will have as many wackos (at least not immediately).

What's going on in the east, in Parthia, Armenia, etc? Anything majorly different from OTL? Or did I just miss it? :)

[DominusNovus]

Now, Roman history is not one of my stronger points, hence my lack of constructive criticism.

Just one thought here: it seems that the Emperors have started a tradition of almost complete independence from the wishes of the Senate. Of course it was much the same in OTL, but here they seem even more arrogant. So there appears to be three roads:
-the Emperors cave in and become puppets of the Senate
-the power of the Emperors keeps growing until they eventually become equivalent to the God-Pharoahs of Egypt
-a mish-mash roughly equal to OTL.

The position of Emperor does seem more stable though; it doesn't appear that this TL will have as many wackos (at least not immediately).

What's going on in the east, in Parthia, Armenia, etc? Anything majorly different from OTL? Or did I just miss it? :)
Nothing's goin on in the east yet, but wait just a bit. As for stuff majorly different from OTL, I made up a map to show what they've conquered so far. Dark red is what they conquered in OTL (except for Britain, cuz that hasn't been conquered yet in TTL), lighter red is stuff that they never conquered (well they did have dacia for awhile, and germania to the elbe for a few years) in OTL, but did in TTL.

[DominusNovus]

As for the Emperors, it'll be a mish mash, and then the senate will get alot more power. As for the absence of wackos, there'll be a few pretty soon (which is one of the reasons the Senate gains power), but not until the Empire gets a bit bigger. By that point, it'll take a skilled man to run it, and that'll be the time that the wackos come around.

[DuQuense]

given that roman influence extented beyond their border, Greece had a few Crimia Cities, and Rome controlls the Straits, & the south shore ?will the Black Sea have more settlement on the north shore? a total roman lake :confused:

[LDoc]

In this TL it seems that britian is going to be a lot more romanized even before the romans get their. Historicly britian as always had close trading ties to the low lands and other coastel areas because of britians natural resources. I could see some roman ideas getting into the british culture of the time. This could prove to make Britian easier or harder to take over depending on how and what the Britians incorperate from their romans neighbors.

[DominusNovus]

Onward to Britain.

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Tiberius Claudius Vandalius ruled from AD 65 to AD 79. His reign would see the completion of the Claudian Amphitheater, the conquest of Britannia, and the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius.

Vandalius decided in AD 67 to conquer Britannia. A few fabricated tales of piracy and he was off to secure the region for the Roman Empire. With the support of the local Trinobantes, the legions conquered the coastal tribes of the Centii, Belgae, and Duranonii by AD 69. The Iceni fell in early 71 and the Silvres were conquered in 72. The only remaining opposition in the region were the Ordovices and Brigantes, who stood together under the leadership of the charismatic leader, Ariovistix. He proved to be a formidable opponent and it took the Romans until 75 to conquer the Ordovices. The Brigantes (who now included many of the Ordovices among their number) still stood defiantly and the Romans, decided to offer Ariovistix a peace treaty. He accepted, which ensured his people's independence for the time being. The conquered territory was organized into the province of Britannia and Vandalius returned to Rome a hero.

Upon his return, the Senate awarded him the title Brittanicus, which he also insisted be bestowed upon the general who was actually responsible for most of the success, Marcus Flavius Verus. Vandalius also adopts Verus as his son and heir, making him Tiberius Claudius Vandalius Flavianus Britannicus. Vandalius did this because he had no heirs of his own. He had only two children, one boy (who died a few years before), and a daughter (who he married to Britannicus to further cement the relation). Many historians have theorized that Vandalius was a homosexual, which would help to explain why he and his wife, Valeria Quinta, did not spend much time together (and why Vandalius had no objections to Valeria's frequent affairs).

The rest of Vandalius' reign would be mundane, until the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in AD 79, which buried the towns of Pompeii and Herculanium. Vandalius happened to be visting the area at the time and helped to organize the evacuation of Pompeii (though the Praetorian guard wanted to leave the area, for his safety and, of course, their own). Sadly, Vandalius would die within the week, almost certainly due to the eruption.

Vandalius was yet another Emperor who earned his fame by conquering new territory and, except for his dramatic death, does not stand out much. He was the last Emperor of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, though some consider Brittanicus and his son to be the last members, as he married into the family (though the son was actually born to a previous wife). Still, Vandalius was the last blood relative of Caesar and Augustus to rule the empire, and he ruled well enough.

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As for the sea of Pontus Euxinus, the south and west shores are Roman territoy, while the north is mostly controlled by the Regnum Bospori (Kingdom of the Bosporus), an ally of the Romans. The area is mostly a Roman Lake, though the eastern shore is still fairly indepedent.

Britain was more prosperous than in OTL at the point of Roman conquest, due to increased trade, as well as the fact that it lasted another 20 years before Rome turned its attention in that direction.

So, any new thoughts, imputs, ideas, etc.? Any and all responses are appreciated.

[Beck Reilly]

Dominus, where'd u get that map? Do you have a blank version of it?

[DominusNovus]

Dominus, where'd u get that map? Do you have a blank version of it?
I'll post the blank version on the help forum, with the other maps.

[MerryPrankster]

Okay, so the Vandals aren't going to bring the house down as OTL. So, who will? I figure the Huns and Magyars might be involved, plus we can have an Islam-like entity (Mohammed is probably going to be butterflied, but some other prophet can arise) unite the Arabs against Roman Africa and Syria.

Hmm...how much of Britain will remain unconquered? Perhaps the unconquered Celtic peoples there can swoop down on Roman Gaul as it falters and establish some kind of Celtic Empire? All we need is a High King, possibly with some religious backing (hmm...the Celtic Church?).

The concept of unconquered British attacking late Rome is mine; however, the need for a High King to unify the factions and to use religion to do so originally came from someone else (it was on the old board--"Romans Never Conquer Britain" or something similar).

[DominusNovus]

Okay, so the Vandals aren't going to bring the house down as OTL. So, who will? I figure the Huns and Magyars might be involved, plus we can have an Islam-like entity (Mohammed is probably going to be butterflied, but some other prophet can arise) unite the Arabs against Roman Africa and Syria.
Who ever said anything about anyone bringing the house down? ;) The Empire will fall, I assure you, but it'll fall in a much different way than it did in OTL. As for a Muhhamed analogue, there will be one (though he'll occur a century or two earlier), but that's all I'll say for now.

Hmm...how much of Britain will remain unconquered? Perhaps the unconquered Celtic peoples there can swoop down on Roman Gaul as it falters and establish some kind of Celtic Empire? All we need is a High King, possibly with some religious backing (hmm...the Celtic Church?).
Our next installment will see the conquest of the rest of Britain (including scotland), so not much will remain unconquered. Though there might still be some form of Celtic (or Gallic?) empire coming around eventually... :cool:

[DominusNovus]

BTW, after I finish the next two installments (Brittanicus and his son), I'm going to take a break and go into detail on the barbarians to the northeast, such as the Heruli, Gothones (who I'm 99% sure are the Goths), Sarmatae, and others. I might also do a short installment on Christianity, though it won't be really important for a couple centuries (which I can't cover, unless I want to give anything away).

[DominusNovus]

Yet another.

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Tiberius Claudius Vandalius Flavianus Britannicus was Emperor from AD 79 to AD 96. During his principate, the Brigantes would be defeated and Caledonia (Scotland) and Hibernia (Ireland) would be conquered.

In AD 81, Britannicus made an alliance with the Caledonii, a tribe which had been attacked frequently by the Brigantes and was on the verge of collapse. Britannicus, along with his son, Manius Flavius Varus, then campaigned against the Brigantes. Though the Brigantes put up a tough fight, they could not withstand the combined offensive and were crushed in AD 85. Ariovistix was sent back to Rome as a captive, and his people's territory was split up between the Roman province of Britannia and the Regnum Caledonii (Kingdom of Caledonia), the new client kingdom form there.

Britannicus then established a few forts along the coast of Britannia and on the Hibernian coast, to defend against the Hibernian Brigantes, who held a grudge against the Romans for the conquest of their Britannic brethren. Britannicus then returned to Rome, leaving the Legions in Britannia under the command of his son. Manius, eager for glory of his own, decided to conquer Hibernia. He campaigned against the Brigantes and their allies, the Eblani and Robogdii, in AD 90, claiming that they had raided one of the coastal forts. By AD 95, the entire island was under Roman control as the new province of Hibernia. For this, Manius was given the title Hibernicus.

In that same year, Britannicus died. His reign was almost totally marked by military matters. The Principate would then pass on to his son who was still in Hibernia.

##########

Comments? Opinions?

[DuQuense]

Remember Early Christianity was a Jewish sect And a Back to Nature Cult [in Reponse to the urbanization of the Persians, then Greeks, Then Romans. :)

[DominusNovus]

Remember Early Christianity was a Jewish sect And a Back to Nature Cult [in Reponse to the urbanization of the Persians, then Greeks, Then Romans. :)
Knew of course about the Jewish sect part, but not about the back to nature thing. Idealistic morons, gonna have to beat some sense into them in TTL. Why is there no angry face on the new board?

[DominusNovus]

I'm running out of ways to introduce my installments.

##########

Hibernicus rule Rome from AD 96 to AD 98. Nothing particularly interesting happened during his reign, though Hibernicus himself is an interesting character.

Hibernicus devoted most of his reign to pleasure, leaving major administrative details unattended. He squandered much of the large surplus left by previous emperors, most of it spent on the large and lavish estate he built for himself in Rome (the palace would be torn down after his death and the grounds would be opened to the public as a large park/zoo). He also picked up the bizarre habit of wearing pants (perceived as feminine or barbaric clothing in ancient Rome) while living in the north, and he even once forced the entire Senate to wear pants for a session. He also humiliated the Senate by proclaiming his wife, Justina, consul (though she actually did a good job in that capacity, especially in contrast to her hedonistic husband).

Eventually, he alienated the Senate enough that they murdered him in late February of AD 98. Upon the assassination, the Senate briefly considered restoring the republic, but the praetorian guard was opposed to such an idea. Therefore, they proclaimed a popular Senator, Decimus Viridius Aurelius, as Emperor.

Hibernicus went down in history as a lazy hedonist, though he was an apt military commander. Perhaps if he had actually put his military talents to use during his principate, he would have been remembered in a better light. As it was, he has the dubious distinction of being the first Roman Emperor to be assassinated.

##########

Thoughts? Comments? Next installment will be either barbarians or early church up to this point, probably church, just cuz I know more about it.

[DominusNovus]

Not much here, just a list of the people's neighboring the Roman Empire, who're pretty much the same as in OTL. Basicly, the east is pretty much the same, while the barbarians to the northeast are beginning to civilize and become more prosperous.

##########

At the turn of the second century, the Roman Empire stretched from the coast of the Suebican Sea (Baltic Sea) to North Africa, from Hibernia to Anatolia. Its borders were secure, its population was booming, trade flourished, and times were good.

To the north, across the Suebican were the Heruli, who had conquered their neighbors, the Sviones and Finni. They had begun to look to the sea for their future, and would eventually develop ships superior even to those of the Roman galleys that patrol the coasts. On the south shore of the Seubican, along the border of the Empire were the Gothones, who were allid with the Sciri and Aestii (who were also formidable mariners). They were usually at war with the Venedae tribes to the east. The tribes had prospered due to trade with the Roman Empire and, as such, remained fairly peaceful with the Romans. The northern Venedae tribes prospered even more and were trying to expand, at the expense of their neighbors.

The southern Vendae also were expanding, at the expense of their neighbors to the south, the Navari, and the Bastarnae. The Bastarnae were beginning to settle more and more along the coast of the Sea of Pontus (Black Sea), which caused concerned in the Kingdom of the Bosporus, a staunchly loyal Roman client state. To the east of the Bosporus were the the Alani, Hunni, and other warlike tribes.

To the south of these, along the Caucasus mountains lay the nations of Colchis, Iberia, and Albania (most likely unrelated to the regions of the same name in Europe), all loosely allied to Rome. To the south of these kingdoms lay Armenia, a relatively powerful client state of Rome. To their south lay the Parthian Empire and the Parthian-leaning state of Osrhoene. Further to the south were the Nabatene, arab nomads who had settled down and become important traders.

##########

Any thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? I've got a good idea of the basics for the next hundred year, and a rough idea of where I want to take it beyond that, but I could easily fit in some of your ideas guys.

[MerryPrankster]

Very good so far. You've described Rome at a very high point...when will the big shake-ups come?

These things always start out with "Rome was at the peak of its powers, with borders stretching from Point A to Point B. Then..."

[Tom_B]

A semithyical character. If you're trying to decelerate the growth of Chrisitianity, then you may want to take a look at him. Domitian gave him a hard time. You might have an Emperor who is a fan instead.

[DominusNovus]

Onward to the second century and destiny! and infinty! and beyond! and, whatever's beyond tha... I'll shut up now. :D

##########

Decimus Viridius Aurelius reigned as Emperor of Rome from AD 98 to AD 115. His reign would be mostly uneventful, except for the reception of a envoy from the Han Empire of Serica (China), Gan Ying.

We must now take a brief interlude to examine events to the east. From AD 80 to AD 97, the Han General Ban Chao had campaigned along the silk road, so that the nations lying on it would be under the control of the Han. The campaign culminated with a crushing victory over the Hunni. Based on the shores of the Mare Caspium (Caspian Sea), Ban Chao sent out an envoy, Gan Ying, to make contact with the empire known to them as Da Qing; the Roman Empire. Gan eventually reached the Pontus Euxinus (Black Sea). He then decided to board a ship to reach his destination and was almost dissuaded by a local sailor who told him exaggerated stories of the dangers of the voyage. However, Gan was a man of duty and decided to continue on, though he went by land. He journeyed through Armenia, into Roman Anatolia, and on to Italia.

Gan Ying eventually reached the Eternal City in the year AD 99. He and his entourage created quite a stir in Rome. Rome impressed them equally, with its tall buildings, gardens, and gigantic public works. Gan Ying would tell stories of Han Serica, to the delight of his Roman hosts. It was soon realized that both empires would have much to offer each other. In fact, in a letter written by Gan to Ban Chao stated that Rome and Serica were "but opposite sides of the same coin".

Gan would eventually return home in AD 103, leaving some of his entourage behind, and taking some Roman envoys along. Over the course of Aurelius' reign, diplomatic missions would be sent back and forth, strengthening relations between the Han and Roman Empires, to the growing concern of the Parthians, who did not wish to be surrounded by an alliance of the two most powerful nations in the world.

Aurelius died a peaceful death in AD 115, after a peaceful and prosperous reign that gave Rome time to breathe after its many conquests to the north, and was succeeded by his adopted son Tiberius Quintus Cosmus, a popular politician. Though Aurelius was a firm supporter in the republic and actively made reforms to expand the power of the Senate (largely by making many Imperial provinces into Senatorial provinces), the military (and, to a lesser degree, the Roman people) wanted an emperor, and Aurelius had to adopt Cosmus, renaming the future emperor Decimus Viridius Aurelius Cosmianus.

##########

Thoughts? Comments? Ideas? Money? Concubines? Food? :D (forgive me, but its late, and I'm bored outta my mind).

Things are going to heat up soon, I hope to be able to do justice to the next section. And as for Appolonius, he seems to be an interesting character. However, I'm not planning on impeding the growth of christianity. If I'm feeling like being a jerk when I get around to writing the bit on the growth of the church (I'm putting it off, as nothing's really happened by this point), I might have him convert, just to screw around with things. Probably not though, given his semimythical status.

[DominusNovus]

Well, I'm going into more detail now, at least for this particular part. So this entry won't be an entire reign of the current Emperor.

##########

Decimus Viridius Aurelius Cosmianus' principate lasted from AD 115 to AD 134. The majority of his reign would be consumed by the war with Parthia, lasting from AD 118 to AD 132.

The war came about for a variety of reasons, the most important of which were the Parthian's fear of losing control over the trade routes between Rome and Serica, and a dispute over the succession of the Armenian throne. As the Han and Roman Empires worked out various trade treaties, they began to look for ways to circumvent the Parthians, who had grown rich simply by being in between the two Empires. Cosmianus had been sending out exploratory fleets around Africa and Arabia, in the hopes of replacing the land route through Parthia with a sea route. He even considered sending ships west, and reach Serica that way, but that plan was eventually deemed unfeasible. Still, it was only a matter of time before the Parthians lost complete control of the silk trade. So Parthia wanted to ensure its safety from Rome, and Rome (and to a slightly lesser degree, the Han) wanted to eliminate Parthia from the silk trade.

Then, in Armenia, disaster struck. Armenia was the main buffer state between Rome and Parthia, sometimes siding with one, sometimes the other. In the year 116, the Armenian king Arsaces I died without an heir. The nation was under the influence of Parthia at the time, so a Parthian candidate,Tiridates, who happened to the nephew of the Parthian King, Osroes. This was an intolerable situation for Rome, as it could lead to Armenia becoming integrated into the Parthian Empire. So, in AD 118, the Roman Empire went to war with the Parthians, and the fate of the world changed forever.

##########

Aren't cliffhangers a bitch? :D

[Diamond]

Aren't cliffhangers a bitch? :D

Yes, they are. More. Now. :)

[MerryPrankster]

Will China be able to hold onto its gains in Central Asia, or will it end up losing them like in OTL (there was a Chinese general who campaigned to the Caspian, but he went home)? Could Rome and China end up with a common border somehow?

Will our "Mohammed-analogue" appear during the wars with Parthia? That seems like a good time, esp. as you've hinted that SOMETHING big is about to occur.

[DominusNovus]

Will China be able to hold onto its gains in Central Asia, or will it end up losing them like in OTL (there was a Chinese general who campaigned to the Caspian, but he went home)? Could Rome and China end up with a common border somehow?

Will our "Mohammed-analogue" appear during the wars with Parthia? That seems like a good time, esp. as you've hinted that SOMETHING big is about to occur.
That general was Ban Chao. Right now, I'm not sure what I'm gonna do with China, but I'm pretty sure I'll have them become more expansionist eventually.

As for our Mohammed analogue, he won't be appearing yet, as Christianity isn't a major player on the scene.

And the next update will be coming along shortly.

[DominusNovus]

Here we go, the big war updated (and it is definately big).

##########

The Roman plan was to launch a two pronged attack into Parthian territory, one army attacking to the north, and the second army attacking to the south. The northern army, under the command of Quintus Domitius Nepos, was to secure Armenia, then march eastward through Media, towards the Parthian homeland. The southern army, under the command of Gaius Barrius Avitus, was to hold the border until the northern army had most of the Parthian military after it, at which point they would invade Mesopotamia and head along the Persian coast, securing the prosperous Parthian subkingdoms of Elymais and Persis. The Parthian strategy was to take Judea and Egypt, thus preventing Rome from trading with the Han by sea. Losing Armenia would be an acceptable setback, if it came to that.
[to have an idea of what's going on, you might want to check out these pages.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/csr/nnc/parthia/frames/imapki.htm
http://members.aol.com/ahreemanx/images/map%20parthian%20empire.jpg]

In the first year, Nepos marched uncontested into Armenia, where his and his legions were relatively well received. He then continued into the subkingdom of Atropatene in Media. There, he face some stiff resistance. Meanwhile, the Parthians marched into Judea, meeting the determined Jewish forces first at Tyre, where they managed to force the Jews back. The Parthian army pursued them, leaving part of their forces behind to lay siege to Tyre. The two armies clashed again at Caesarea, where the Parthians won a narrow victory again. However, as they lay siege to the city, the Jewish forces regrouped and attacked. The two sides would fall into stalemate for a time, though the Parthians outnumbered the Jewish army and would eventually win.

However, at that time, Avitus' legions began to march south, to meet the Parthians, who had split again, one group marching towards Eqypt, while the other went for Jerusalem, in order to secure a Jewish surrender. This allowed Avitus to meet up with the Jewish army (which was still in good order after Caesarea) and defeat the Parthians outside of Jersulam in the summer of AD 119. Avitus then turned north to Mesopotamia and laid siege to Arbela, the capital of the subkingdom of Adiabene, near the beginning of AD 120. The Jewish forces consolidated their positions and bled a large portion of the other Parthian group as it marched back to meet Avitus.

Arbela fell to the Romans just days before the Parthians reached the city. Neither side could gain a significant advantage and the situation turned into a stalemate. The situation was the same to the north, where Nepos' legions had made little progress. The war would continue in this way for until the fall of 123, with the Romans making gradual headway into Parthian territory, but having a hard time of it.

In that year, the impressive citadel of Hatra, to the southwest of Arbela, fell to Avitus' forces, and Nepos finished off the conquest of Atropatene. Meanwhile, back in Rome, Cosmianus was beginning to consider ending the campaign, after seeing how costly the early phase of the war was. However, before he could decide on this course of action, news came from Han messengers.

The Han had been eying the subkingdom of Saka (who's king was also a member of the Parthian Suren family), on the very eastern edge of the Parthian empire, hoping to collect tribute from them. The king of Saka, Gotarzes, seeing that the majority of the Parthian army was tied up in the east, decided to revolt and, hopefully, expand his kingdom (and, if things went very well, become the king of Parthia himself). He sent envoys to the Han saying that he would accept the Han Emperor as suzerain, if they would sent assistance to him. His offer was accepted and, in September of AD 123, a new front was opened in the Parthian war. When Cosmianus heard of this, his hope for the war was restored, and he ordered his commanders to renew the offensive.

As some of the Parthian forces withdrew to attack the Saka, Avitus managed to break through and march down the Tigris-Euphrates, reaching the city of Selucia by January. Selucia was a predominately Greek city which was dissatisfied with the Parthians and, therfore, welcomed Avitus. However, Ctesiphon, a major Parthian city which lay just across the Tigris, was not as welcoming and his forces were tied down for some time assaulting the city. Meanwhile, Nepos, who now had to deal with the majority of the western Parthian forces (who were worried about the northern Roman force linking up with the Saka) had won a string of small victories and was assaulting Rhagae.

When Ctesiphon fell, Avitus sent out envoys to the Subkingdoms of Elymais, Characene, and Persis, proposing that they become client states allied to Rome. Only Persis refused, though Characene only accepted to avoid being invaded by the much larger Elymais. Avitus then marched towards Susa and lay siege to the city. Nepos, meanwhile, found himself again in a stalemate, facing the Parthian armies outside of the Caspian gates.

Meanwhile, to the east, the Parthians were battlying the Saka outside of Asaak, to the northeast of Hecatompylos, the Parthian capital. The Parthians pushed back the Saka offensive and persued them through Nisa, Dara, and Merv. By AD 125, the Saka city of Bactra was under seige and Persian forces were attacking the south, hoping to gain territory from the rebellious subkingdom.

Despite all of these losses, the Parthians were holding their own valiantly well against increasingly bad odds. Though they only had one major subkingdom still loyal to the Parthian king, they held their own, inflicting significant losses on the Romans. Granted, most of the battles against the Romans were losses for the Parthians, but in the majority, the Roman forces suffered more casualties. In the east, the Parthians were slowly grinding away at the Saka, while they had all but completely halted the Roman forces.

Susa would not fall until 126 and Avitus would then attack Tabae, which would hold out until 128. Nepos had not gained any ground, though he inflicted more losses on the Parthians. Meanwhile, the Saka had lost Bactra and were on their last legs, even though the Han were pouring more and more support into them, and were being squeezed between the Parthians in the north and the Persians to the south. The Parthians had finally found a commander that could lead them to victory, General Sanabares, and they were optimistic that the course of the war would soon turn.

##########

I don't want to sound conceited, but its looking good, isn't it? I was going to do more, but when I wrote that last sentence, I realize it made a fantastic cliffhanger, and I had to use it as such. Any thoughts before I wrap up the final years of the war?

[Diamond]

I don't want to sound conceited, but its looking good, isn't it?

You arrogant bastard! LOL, just kidding. :)

This is really great so far; the hot/cold cooperation between Rome and the Han against the Parthians sort of reminds me of the US & USSR attacking Nazi Germany and tearing it to pieces one bit at a time. Is there a Rome/Han 'cold war' on the horizon?

Are any of the remaining northern european tribes taking advantage of Rome's preoccupation to revolt or otherwise make a nuisance of themselves?

[DominusNovus]

You arrogant bastard! LOL, just kidding. :)

This is really great so far; the hot/cold cooperation between Rome and the Han against the Parthians sort of reminds me of the US & USSR attacking Nazi Germany and tearing it to pieces one bit at a time. Is there a Rome/Han 'cold war' on the horizon?

Are any of the remaining northern european tribes taking advantage of Rome's preoccupation to revolt or otherwise make a nuisance of themselves?
Rome and China are gonna get along for the foreseeable future. As for the barbarians, they're still facing significant border garrisons. Besides, they're doing pretty well trading with the empire.

[DominusNovus]

You arrogant bastard! LOL, just kidding. :)

This is really great so far; the hot/cold cooperation between Rome and the Han against the Parthians sort of reminds me of the US & USSR attacking Nazi Germany and tearing it to pieces one bit at a time. Is there a Rome/Han 'cold war' on the horizon?

Are any of the remaining northern european tribes taking advantage of Rome's preoccupation to revolt or otherwise make a nuisance of themselves?
Rome and China are gonna get along for the foreseeable future. As for the barbarians, they're still facing significant border garrisons. Besides, they're doing pretty well trading with the empire.

[DominusNovus]

For the sake of suspense and storytelling, I should wait on posting the end to the war. However, I just can't resist posting it now that its written. So, here we go, the end of the Parthian War.

##########

The war did turn, though it was not to turn in the Parthian's favor. An epidemic suddenly swept through the Parthian's horses, devastating the predominately calvary armies. This disaster enabled Nepos to break through the Caspian Gates and march towards Hecatompylos. Meanwhile, the Saka began to push the Parthians out of their territory, not a difficult task, considering the Parthians were rushing to defend Hecatompylos. To the southeast, Avitus was marching on Persepolis, causing the Persian armies (which were not as dependent on calvary) to also vacate Saka territory.

The year 129 would see both Persepolis and Hecatompylos under seige and the Saka expanding along all of their borders, taking Merv and Dara to the north, and pushing back the Persians to the straits of Hormuz. Sanabares reached Hecatompylos in late 129 and attacked the Romans, forcing them to abandon the siege. Sanabares began to push Nepos' legions back and would have crushed the Romans. However, while retreating, Nepos split his forces into 3 groups. The main group would continue to retreat, while the other two groups would split off to the north and south and would circle around the Parthians.

Sanabares, seeing the size of Nepo's main force, thought that the Romans must have suffered serious casualties and his army surged forward, allowing the two other groups to slip behind them and attack them just as the Parthians began to attack Nepos. Sanabares, realizing that he had been tricked, turned his troops around and charged at the rear attackers. The Parthians managed to break through and head back to Hecatompylos.

To the south, the Persians had managed to push back the Saka to their former borders again, while trying to lift the siege of Persepolis. Persepolis would ultimately fall in 130, allowing Avitus to attack the Persian forces, which, in turn, allowed the Saka to force the Persians back again, crushing the last Persian resistance by late 130.

Meanwhile, Nepos and Sanabares were going back and forth at each other. Nepos would besiege Hecatompylos, Sanabares would attack and break up the Roman forces, which would regroup and drive the Parthians off and besiege the city again, at which point the Parthians would regroup and attack. Avitus sent up half of his forces to assist Nepos, allowing him to hold the siege while attacking the Parthians. It would take until the summer of AD 132 before the city fell, at which point Osroes commited suicide, rather than be captured by the Romans. Upon hearing this, Sanabares met Nepos and surrendered his forces to the mercy of the Roman Empire. The Parthian War was over.

##########

[DominusNovus]

Come on people, I just took out the Parthian Empire! Say something! argh! :D

Seriously, what do you guys think of it so far?

[MerryPrankster]

So...what's left of Parthia is a collection of Roman client states. Might we see more Greco-Roman cultural influence in the Middle East? Come Christianity, will we have a Christian Persia and much of Central Asia when our Islam-analogue arrives?

[DominusNovus]

Small update, mainly dealing with how the Parthian Empire got divided up.

##########

Armenia would become a client kingdom of Rome, as would the neutral Osroene, and the former subkingdoms of Characene and Elymais. The Tigris-Euphrates region would be divided up into the the provinces of Adiabene, just east of Osroene, then Assyria to the south, and then Mesopotamia, further to the south, bordering Characene and Elymais. To the east of Adiabene was the province of Media Inferior. East of that was Media Superior. South of Media Superior and north of Elymais was the province of Susiana. East of Elymais and Susiana lay Persia Superior, and then Persia Inferior, both along the Persian Gulf. East of Media Superior, along the Caspian coast was Hypercania. After that lay Parthia Superior and then Parthia Inferior to the south. South of Parthia Inferior and north of Persia Inferior lay the province of Carmania. East of Parthia Superior was Margiana, with Aria to the south of that. The res of Parthian territory was now the the Regnum Sakae (kingdom of Saka). Saka was bound by treaty to pay tribute to the Han, as well as promising not to interfere in anyway with trade between its neighbors.

Avitus and Nepos would return to Rome as heros and participated in the greatest triumph Rome had ever seen. In recognition of their achievements, the Senate gave Nepos and Avitus the titles of Parthicus and Persicus, respectively. Cosmianus now had to choose one of the generals as his successor or he would certainly face the wrath of the army. He decided to choose Avitus, as Nepos was too hotheaded and blatantly ambitious, while Avitus was methodical and softspoken, and well liked by the Senate. Cosmianus would rule Rome for another 2 years and then die of old age, leaving the principate to Decimus Viridius Aurelius Avitianus Persicus.

##########

Input? Where would you guys like to see this go from here?

[DuQuense]

So TTL has a major Roman presense on the west back of the black sea, and now it's ready to move into the Caspian, one thrust up the calcasian mountains, and maybe into arabia, ?A Roman Great Canal [suez]?

[DominusNovus]

So TTL has a major Roman presense on the west back of the black sea, and now it's ready to move into the Caspian, one thrust up the calcasian mountains, and maybe into arabia, ?A Roman Great Canal [suez]?
I'd like to do a suez canal, but what technology would we need to do that? Also, as for further Roman expansion, they're already on the south shore of the Caspian. Expanding into the Caucasus would be a logical move, as it is relatively close and has some prosperous states there.

[Diamond]

Also, as for further Roman expansion, they're already on the south shore of the Caspian. Expanding into the Caucasus would be a logical move, as it is relatively close and has some prosperous states there.

That could make things interesting a few centuries down the road, when (or if) the Empire splits. If it does in TTL, the split would probably be further east, assuming the Caucasus region is romanized. The Huns, Magyars, etc. might never get past the Caspian, leaving Europe proper to develop radically different.

If a strong Islam analog arises in the mideast, the 'Eastern Roman Empire' of TTL might let the muslims have Anatolia and focus to the north, expanding into the Ukraine and Russia...

[DominusNovus]

If a strong Islam analog arises in the mideast, the 'Eastern Roman Empire' of TTL might let the muslims have Anatolia and focus to the north, expanding into the Ukraine and Russia...
Well, seeing as I'm going to have the Islam analogue actually be a form of Christianity, if there's an Eastern Empire (which would probably be called a Persian Empire, considering how far east Rome has spread), it might very well adopt this religion.

[DominusNovus]

Here we go, a new, moderate sized, update.

##########

Persicus would rule Rome between AD 132 and AD 138. He was a moderate man, though somewhat of an idealist. His reign was most noted for vast public works projects and trade expeditions.

Persicus' building projects in the city of Rome were so grand that the city of Rome was almost unrecognizable to many. When a fire broke out shortly after the beginning of his reign, he responded by rebuilding the area in a more orderly (grid) fashion and instituting stricter building codes to lessen the chance of such infernos. He also had several of the poorer sections renovated in the same way, with wider streets and public gardens. He bolstered the defenses of the city and built several public buildings, such as the Avitian Baths, Avitian Forum, and Avitian Theater.

Persicus also built such projects across the empire, though mainly in the less populated west. He established an unprecedented number of colonies, to increase the population of the European provinces, to balance out the Asian provinces larger populations. He had several new roads built, greatly increasing the overall level of commerce.

Though Persicus was tired of war and did not wish to extend the empire's borders anymore, he did expand the empire's influence. He sent out expeditions to create trading posts in various regions beyond the empire. Several posts were established along the coasts of eastern Africa and Arabia, as well as western Africa and the Prosperian Islands (Canary). Roman ships continued to carry out expeditions along the coasts, though they did not achieve Persicus' dream of circumnavigating the continent. Under his reign, the Nabatene became a client state of Rome.

In the north, the Sciri, and Aestii, and Gothones had been united into one kingdom, the Regnum Gothonia, under the charismatic chieften, Atreu. Persicus forged a defensive alliance with the young kingdom, mainly to avoid the hassle of having to go to war.

Persicus' death in AD 138 was most likely due to poisoning. His death was mourned by almost the entire empire, and his reign was marked by peace and prosperity. Around the time of his death, Parthicus happened to be visiting family in Rome, after being the governor of Mesopotamia. He also happened to have connected with the legions who had been under his command in the war, who were stationed in Africa at the time. While the Senate was debating what to do about the death of Persicus, Parthicus issued an ultimatum. Either the Senate would peacefully name him emperor, or his legions, which were now in Italy, would march into the city and he would forcefully become emperor. The Senate conceded, and Parthicus become the new Emperor of Rome.

##########

Thoughts? Comments? Beer? Please?

[DuQuense]

Rome built canals, some of which [french-beligum area] are still working today.

The engineering knowledge [especilly givien your Alexander library POD], is there.
what would be needed would be some kind of Political-ecomonic reason, to entergize the WILL To. [??Red Sea Settlements??]

As I pointed out in the Barbarian Horde thread Rome was Sacked by Internal Hordes, I read some where that several of the Emperors wanted to forcefully remove Rome's [city] excess population. perhaps your more secure Rome can do this, to prevent its collaspse.

[DominusNovus]

Rome built canals, some of which [french-beligum area] are still working today.

The engineering knowledge [especilly givien your Alexander library POD], is there.
what would be needed would be some kind of Political-ecomonic reason, to entergize the WILL To. [??Red Sea Settlements??]
Drat. And here I just killed off the kind of guy that would do that. Guess I'll have to wait for Persia to rebel and start interfering with trade again.

[Sargon]

This is an excellent timeline, and I am thoroughly enjoying it :)

Yes, you have just killed off a ruler who could have built the canals, especially since he obviously had a passion for public works. A little rewrite perhaps? Or just an addition to the above text...after all it could be part of the reign you omitted to mention ;) I'm sure no-one would mind.

I'd like to see more development of the Roman-Han relationship...these two great powers working together could accomplish a lot.


Sargon

[DominusNovus]

This is an excellent timeline, and I am thoroughly enjoying it :)

Yes, you have just killed off a ruler who could have built the canals, especially since he obviously had a passion for public works. A little rewrite perhaps? Or just an addition to the above text...after all it could be part of the reign you omitted to mention ;) I'm sure no-one would mind.

I'd like to see more development of the Roman-Han relationship...these two great powers working together could accomplish a lot.


Sargon
Nah, he'll stay dead. There'll be other guys that'll want to build a canal. Maybe I'll have someone start one and then stop, then have someone pick up from there.

[DominusNovus]

New update

##########

Parthicus ruled the Roman Empire from AD 138 to AD 142. Though a brutal leader, he was also a capable administrator, who managed the empire quite well.

When Parthicus assumed power, the population of the city of Rome was around 1.5 million people. Through forced emigration, he brought the population down to 1 million, settling many of the displaced people in the European provinces, some of which were beginning to be as populated as the eastern provinces.

He also enfranchised many people in the Empire, giving them Roman citizenship, if they could speak latin fluently and pay a fee. This action upset many in the Senate, who saw it as selling Roman citizenship. When they protested, Parthicus have many of them killed to silence their opposition.

However, Parthicus did continue many of Persicus' policies regarding the provinces and sent out trading expeditions of his own. He also had the legions start using wheelbarrows, an invention brought over by the Han, in their construction projects. During his reign, indian numerals began to see use in the eastern provinces. These numerals were much easier to use than the Roman numerals and became very popular, at least in the east.

Late in his reign, Parthicus decided that the best way to salvage his failing popularity was to start a military campaign. To him, the best option was to campaign against the Venedae, the historic enemies of the empire's new Gothonian allies. However, this idea was very unpopular. The senate saw no need to waste Roman lives for that region, the merchants didn't want trade disrupted, the people of Rome were sick of the emperor's lack of interest with the city, and the Gothonians didn't want to risk getting invaded.

Parthicus was assassinated by the Praetorian Guard, who were prompted by Senator Quintus Trebatius Armenius, who had, ironically enough, been elevated to his position by Parthicus himself. Armenius, popular with both the Senate and the Praetorian Guard, became the next emperor.

##########

[MerryPrankster]

TL is going strong.

Keep up the good work.

[DominusNovus]

Here we go again.

##########

Quintus Trebatius Armenius was emperor from AD 142 to AD 156. His reign would see much unrest and rebellion in the empire, though he managed to keep things together.

Early on, in late 142, he faced a rebellion in the eastern provinces, specifically Media Superior and Susiana. He went with the legions to quell the rebellion, conducting the effort from Seleucia Magna (formed when the Ctesiphon was incorporated into Seleucia). The revolt was crushed in 144, just as another was forming in Persia Inferior, Carmania, and Parthia Inferior. Armenius moved his base of operations to Persepolis and went about attacking the rebels. In 145, Persia Inferior fell to the Imperial forces while Aria fell to the rebels. The other rebellious provinces would capitulate in AD 148.

Just as Armenius returned to Rome in AD 149, word came of yet another rebellion in the east, this time in the client state of Elymais, which had just undergone a revolution and refused to pay tribute to Rome. Armenius would go to lead the legions against the rebels, defeating them in AD 152, and incorporating Elymais as a province.

For the next 2 years, Armenius would spend his time in Persepolis and Seleucia Magna. He would then return to Rome, where he would continue out the rest of his reign to his death in AD 156. His adopted son and successor was a general named Gaius Oranius Lysippus, who, upon his adoption became Quintus Trebatius Armenius Lysippianus.

Armenius was a exceptionally able ruler who managed both to keep the city of Rome happy (even though he spent less than half of his reign in the city) and to keep the provinces in line, though it was beginning to prove difficult. His successors would not prove to be as able.

##########

What'dya guys think? Any personal opinions on how the Empire should fall? I know the basic outline of what I want, but I'm not sure how I'd like to get there. So, if you guys have any ideas (I don't want to influence you with what the end result should be), hopefully, it'll inspire me.

[DominusNovus]

coughreplydamnyoucough :D

[DuQuense]

IIRC one of the reasons for Constance's spliting the Empire, was the Shere Distances involved in getting messages, from the edges, to the administrative center. As your Empire is much Bigger sooner, perhaps a Three or Four way split. Also you have already had the army [PG] Chose the Emperor. Maybe a Civil War.

[Landshark]

IIRC one of the reasons for Constance's spliting the Empire, was the Shere Distances involved in getting messages, from the edges, to the administrative center. As your Empire is much Bigger sooner, perhaps a Three or Four way split. Also you have already had the army [PG] Chose the Emperor. Maybe a Civil War.

I've read that during the forth century Emporers held court at Milan because Rome was too far from the frontiers of the Empire.

[DominusNovus]

I've read that during the forth century Emporers held court at Milan because Rome was too far from the frontiers of the Empire.
Hence Armenius spending much of his reign ruling from Seleucia and Persepolis. As the Empire splits up, one of these two will be the capital of the Eastern Empire.

[Diamond]

I thought DuQuense's idea was a good one: why not have a three-way split? Western (Corduba), Central (Rome), and Eastern (Persepolis)... the constantly shifting alliances between them will not only make the next few centuries very interesting, but the interplay and competition would serve to keep all three stronger, I think, than OTL West and East were on their own.

[DominusNovus]

I thought DuQuense's idea was a good one: why not have a three-way split? Western (Corduba), Central (Rome), and Eastern (Persepolis)... the constantly shifting alliances between them will not only make the next few centuries very interesting, but the interplay and competition would serve to keep all three stronger, I think, than OTL West and East were on their own.
Why stop at 3? :D

[DominusNovus]

Here's some more for you guys to chew on.

##########

Lysippianus reigned from AD 156 to AD 159. While he was emperor, Roman galleys would finally circumnavigate Africa, and the east would again rebel.

Ever since Persicus was emperor, there had been sporadic Roman expeditions along the African coasts. It was only in AD 156 that they finally managed to sail around the entire continent, which was much much larger than anyone had thought. However, most of the continent was either unsuitable for habitation or too far away to be worth the effort, so the Roman presence was restricted to coastal outposts. Still, the Romans had significant influence in the region, due to their dominance of trade.

Meanwhile, there was sporadic unrest in the east, requiring Lysippianus to conduct his reign from Persepolis for most of it. He skillfully commanded the legions and seemed to be able to crush revolts before they even started. Yet, the seeds of his downfall were sown in Rome, as his spent very little time, money, or attention on the Eternal city, while spending much on Persepolis.

Lysippianus eventually crushed the last of the revolts and returned to Rome in AD 159. He expected to be greeted as a hero, but instead faced an unruly and rebellious city. Within days of returning, he was found dead, murdered in his sleep. The emperor chosen by the Senate to replace him was Senator Marcus Claudius Malchus. However, Malchus was unpopular with the much of the army, who supported Titus Secundius Silvanus.

Malchus and the Senate refused the Legions' demands and civil war soon broke out. Malchus generally had the support of the legions in Europe, while Silvanus had the support of the eastern legions.

The civil war would be a short affair, though the year 160 was pretty much a stalemate. Malchus would win the battles of Byzantium and Ephesus, while Silvanus would claim victory at Antioch and Miletus. 161 saw Malchus winning at Apulum. Just when it looked as though Malchus would win, the Gothonians threw their support behind Silvanus (who promised them land in various provinces). At the battle of Aquilea, Malchus was defeated by the combined forces of Silvanus and Atreus II. Malchus then commited suicide, leaving to become the next Emperor of Rome.

##########

Seems that things are starting to unravel...

[MerryPrankster]

Offering the Goths Roman territory in exchange for military support should be the beginning of the end...

I vote that a 3-way split would be an excellent idea. The central portion (the German territories, Italy, etc) should fall to the inevitable barbarians, while the western portion (Spain and, I assume, parts of Northern Africa), is vulnerable to the Islam-analogue. The east? Who knows?

[DominusNovus]

Offering the Goths Roman territory in exchange for military support should be the beginning of the end...

I vote that a 3-way split would be an excellent idea. The central portion (the German territories, Italy, etc) should fall to the inevitable barbarians, while the western portion (Spain and, I assume, parts of Northern Africa), is vulnerable to the Islam-analogue. The east? Who knows?
I'd give you some details about what i'm gonna do, but I am soo drunk right now. GO PATS!!!

[Diamond]

I'd give you some details about what i'm gonna do, but I am soo drunk right now. GO PATS!!!

Any team in the AFC East that's not the Dolphins is a bunch of dirtbags. :D

BTW, looking forward to more on the TL. :cool:

[DominusNovus]

Any team in the AFC East that's not the Dolphins is a bunch of dirtbags. :D

BTW, looking forward to more on the TL. :cool:
I don't know man, you just insulted my favorite team. :p
I will do this thing for you though, but in return... :D
Well, I'm actually just worried about the thread turning into a superbowl discuussion.

[DominusNovus]

Have a map to play with. :)
Red is obviously the Roman Empire, and also includes any client states (no way I'm gonna take the time to add that much detail to it). The map doesn't include other states that are actually on the map, such as Saka and Gothonia, cuz I'm lazy. :D

[DominusNovus]

Next update.

##########

Silvanus would rule Rome from AD 161 to AD 170. He was a brutally effective emperor who crushed those who opposed him and ruled the Empire with an Iron fist.

The least unpleasant aspect of his rule was the handling of the Gothonian allies. Silvanus was no fool and knew that there could be trouble if there were mass Gothonian settlements inside the Empire's borders. So, he offered them land, but only in relatively small plots, capable of supporting a few families. These plots were spread out across Europe, though most were east of the Albis. Atreus II and the other Gothonians weren't quite pleased with this, and Silvanus sent engineers to Gothonia to help the Gothonians build up their state, which placated Atreus. All in all, about 1/3 of the Gothonian people settled in the Roman Empire.

In the east, Silvanus faced the usual unrest, which had been simmering during the civil war. He spent much of his reign crushing the revolts and making examples of the rebels. Any rebellious city was totally depopulated upon capture. The population would be dispersed across the Empire. In most cases, families were broken up and settled vast distances away from each other. For some cities that did not resist too much, Silvanus showed a degree of mercy and allowed families to stay together. For the cities that resisted fiercely, anyone who wasn't crucified upon the capture was enslaved. Records indicated that populations of Anatolia and Achaea (where the majority of the rebellions occured) decreased by almost 20% during Silvanus' reign.

However, in the city of Rome itself, Silvanus was well liked and respected. Even the Senate that opposed his ascension thought well of him. However, Silvanus would ultimately die, fighting rebels in Adiabene. His death would plunge Rome into its second civil war in a decade.

##########

Thoughts?

[MerryPrankster]

Good job. Will the Goths take advantage of the second civil war to make trouble?

What about the Islam-analogue? Will it come around as the result of this civil war (as Islam kinda-sorta came around b/c of the Byzantine wars with Persia)?

[DominusNovus]

Good job. Will the Goths take advantage of the second civil war to make trouble?

What about the Islam-analogue? Will it come around as the result of this civil war (as Islam kinda-sorta came around b/c of the Byzantine wars with Persia)?
Nah, the Goths are making out pretty well fighting as allies in these wars.

"Islam" is gonna come around later, and there'll be a big war involved. It'll be an East v West affair, but thats all I'll say right now.

[DominusNovus]

Have another civil war, why don't ya?

##########

On one side was Gaius Cornelius Homullus, who was popular with the Senate and the central regions of the Empire, such as Italy, Greece, Anatolia, Syria, and Egypt. Opposing him was Secundus Amaticus Darius, who was popular with the eastern areas, such as Persia (his birthplace) and Mesopotamia, as well as in Gaul and Britannia. This civil war would drag out for much longer than the previous war, as neither side could gain an advantage over the other.

AD 170 would see Homullus winning at the battle of Lutetia. In 171, Darius would claim victory at Mediolanum, while Homullus would win at Lugdunum and Sirmium. During 172, Darius would win pyrrhic victories at Thessalonica, Ancryra,and Palmrya.

In that same year, the Parthian provinces would rebel, creating a pocket empire out of Parthia Superior and Inferior, Margiana, and Aria. Meanwhile, the Venedae began to raid into Carpia, Costobocia, and Roxolania. Both Darius and Homullus were too focused on defeating each other to give any time to either of these threats.

173 would see no major battles, except for a naval engagement at Alexandria, which both sides claimed as a victory (Darius destroyed almost all of Homullus' navy, but was prevented from making a landing and was turned away). The Parthians were sending diplomatic feelers to see if they could profit from allying with either general, though this lead to nothing. The Venedae continued to raid unchallenged into Roman territory, until the Gothonians stepped in.

Seeing an opportunity to expand, Atreus II attacked the Venedae, forcing them on the defensive. Though the incursions into Roman territory would continue into 174, this gave the neutral Roman garrisons time to recover and put up some semblance of defense.

The civil war would continue on through 175, with engagements at Cyrene, Seleucia Magna, Ecbatana, and Carthago. The Gothonians continued to press the Venedae and had already defeated most of the northern tribes.

The war finally ended in AD 176 when Homullus died of malaria. His forces, who were weary of the fighting, surrendered to Darius soon after, leaving him to become Emperor.

###########

Thoughts? Comments? Money?

[MerryPrankster]

Will Rome lose any territory as a result of this second civil war? Parthia seems to have escaped, at least temporarily.

[DominusNovus]

Will Rome lose any territory as a result of this second civil war? Parthia seems to have escaped, at least temporarily.
Parthia'll be conquered in the next update. Darius will keep things together for awhile, as Silvanus did. He'll actually make sure to have an heir appointed, so there's going to be a little bit of stability here (mainly cuz writing these civil wars is tedious).

[DominusNovus]

Here's another one for you guys to enjoy.

##########

Secundus Amaticus Darius was emperor from AD 176 to AD 187. He would re-conquer Parthia, while restoring some stability to the Empire and expanding Roman influence.

As soon as he was proclaimed emperor, Darius quickly moved to crush the Parthian revolt. His campaign was well executed, and Hecatompylos fell in AD 181. With it fell the last of the resistance. As an example of what happened to those who opposed Roman rule (and as an example of what happened when you named your capital something annoying to type), Darius had Hecatompylos razed and the ground sowed with salt. Many of the rebellious Parthians were crucified, while the lucky ones were sold into slavery. Those that didn't openly revolt were dispersed throughout the Empire. According to the records, the rebellious provinces lost about 70-80% of their population. Darius then repopulated the region with settlers primarily from Italia, Hispania, and Gaul (the most Romanized reigions of the Empire). Not surprisingly, there weren't many revolts for the rest of Darius' reign.

Darius then returned to Persepolis to govern the Empire. He decided not to govern from Rome mainly because Persepolis was much closer to the hot spots of the Empire that needed his attention, though the fact that his was born there likely played a factor in his decision. He still had many public works built in Rome and spent lavishly on the Eternal City. Still, he did do much to glorify Persepolis as well, building the Forum of Darius and the Amatican Amphitheater.

Meanwhile, the Gothonians had defeated the Venedae in a great battle, forcing the Venedae chieftens to pay tribute to Atreus II. Atreus then demanded that the Romans provide some sort of payment to the Gothonians, for defending the Empire while it was weak. Darius, who felt honor bound to do so (and didn't really want to have to deal with a hostile Gothonian kingdom), agreed. He allowed more Gothonians to settle in the Empire (most of whom settled in Lemovia and Burgundia) and married his daughter to Atreus' grandson.

Darius put new emphasis on the colonial trading posts, many of which had been abandoned during the civil wars. However, Darius' greatest project was the Canalis Aegyptum (Egyptian Canal), begun in AD 184. It would cross the Sinai, connecting the Mare Internum (Mediterranean Sea) and the Mare Rostrum (Red Sea). The Canal was definitely the grandest of Darius' projects, and possibly the greatest feat of Roman engineering to this time, though it would be delayed several times over the period of its construction.

Unfortunately, Darius died in a riding accident in the spring of AD 187, leaving the Empire to his son, Marcus Amaticus Darius. He left the Empire much more stable and secure than he found it and was remembered fondly by the Roman people.

##########

Do you guys even read this part? I like monkeys... Well, not really, but monkeys are funny.

[MerryPrankster]

This installment is pretty cool too, plus I see the seeds of the eventual East-West split coming...

[DuQuense]

They also taste pretty good, fried like chicken. :eek:

[DominusNovus]

Here's the good stuff. A decadent perverted Emperor who pisses alot of people off (we had to get to one of them by some point).

##########

Marcus Amaticus was the Roman Emperor from AD 187 to AD 193. His early reign would be marked mainly by military campaigns, while the rest of his reign was noted for corruption and decadence.

Soon after ascending to the throne, Marcus Amaticus had to deal with the Alani who were raiding into the Caucasian states of Colchis and Iberia, both Roman client states. He made short work of the Alani, crushing them by AD 188. He then moved against the Hunni to the north and defeated them in several battles. Having dramatically weakened the two most troublesome tribes in the area, Marcus Amaticus returned to Persepolis in AD 190.

Seeking to ingratiate himself with the populace, he built several public works in the city, much more so than his father, who had focused most of his projects on Rome. Marcus, however, almost completely ignored the city of Rome. He also stopped construction on the Canalis Aegyptum. Most of the money saved by these actions went to his grand palace, the Domus Aureum (Golden House), which further angered the people of Rome.

Still, he was popular in the East, and none dared to challenge him as, despite his extravagance, Marcus was one of the most skilled generals Rome had ever seen (in every battle against the Alani and Hunni, he was outnumbered by a significant margin, and he only lost one battle). However, the Senate did have enough confidence to request that he at least continue construction on the Canal and that he use some of the Imperial funds to help repair Rome after a recent fire.

Marcus Amaticus then went to assess the situation in Rome. He received a relatively cold reception from the populace, though the Senate, eager to have their agenda addressed, did welcome him graciously. Marcus, however, annoyed with having to go to Rome in the first place, was not pleased in the least. He rounded up several upper class women, many wives or daughters of Senators, and returned to Persepolis. Upon his return, he opened up a brothel, staffed by the kidnapped women.

The people would take no more. In the winter of 193, Marcus Amaticus' brother, Titus Amaticus Darius, and his sister, Amatica Daria (with whom Marcus is supposed to have had an incestuous relationship) assassinated Marcus. Titus would now become the next emperor.

##########

What'dya guys think? Should I go with the blonde or the brunette? :D

Oh, and how about the timeline?

[tom]

This is going great.
Do you plan to get it to the present day?

[Diamond]

I wondered when you were going to have the incestuous emperor and his sister... seems to be a staple of Roman TL's. :)

Nice installment. Is it just me, or are your emperor's almost... anti-Roman? Very few of them seem to spend any time in the West.

[DominusNovus]

I wondered when you were going to have the incestuous emperor and his sister... seems to be a staple of Roman TL's. :)

Nice installment. Is it just me, or are your emperor's almost... anti-Roman? Very few of them seem to spend any time in the West.
Yeah, they're starting to get Persianized. Just look at the current dynasty's agnomen (last name), Darius. Very Persian name (that also fits well as a Roman name, with the -us ending). The emperors are also starting to take on the mannerisms of Persian emperors, making people prostrate themselves before the emperor, dressing all snazzy, etc.

Also important is that these Emperors are really starting to annoy Rome and the Senate. They, being the pragmatic people that they are, can accept Rome not being the administrative capital of the Empire, but it is still the Roman empire, and the emperors had better not forget that...

[DominusNovus]

Next update.

##########

Titus Amaticus Darius reigned from AD 193 until AD 203. While he was a capable politician and administrator, he was nowhere near the general his brother was. Unfortunately, Titus also had to deal with many more military problems than Marcus had.

In Mauretania, the Gaetuli tribes were launching major raids into Roman territory. The Navari and Bastarnae were also raiding Roxolania and Costobocia. In the Caucasus, the Aorsi tribe was causing trouble, now that the Alani were out of the way. Most troublesome was that, in the east, the Kushan Empire was attacking Rome's Saka ally, the vital link between the Roman and Han empires.

Titus decided to delegate the problem of handling the barbarians to his brother's most trusted commander, Quintus Flavius Severus, while focusing his efforts on defending the Saka.

Severus first focused on the Navari and Bastarnae, defeating them by AD 194. He then went after the Aorsi, who were crushed in 196. The Gaetuli would submit in 199, though the Navari were attacking Roxolania again, forcing Severus to battle them again, achieving victory in AD 202.

Titus' campaign in the Saka Kingdom was long and drawn out, as he crisscrossed the state in a game of cat and mouse with the Kushan armies. Eventually, in the climactic battle of Maracanda in AD 197, Titus defeated the Kushans, forcing them to abandon their conquest of the Saka.

Titus didn't devote his reign solely to military matters, however. He restarted construction on the Canalis Aegyptum in AD 194, finishing it in AD 200. The canal opened with great celebration and fanfare, as ships from various parts of the world paraded through it. Titus also spent considerable effort on Rome, restoring the ailing Claudian Amphitheater and expanding the port at Ostia. Still, he prefered to govern from Persepolis.

The rest of Titus' reign would be mostly uneventful and peaceful (though Severus was busy battling barbarians) and he would die in his sleep in AD 203. His appointed successor was Appius Claudius Vincentius, a prominent and respected politician. However, Severus, who felt that Vincentius was not up to the task of defending the empire, had other plans.

##########

And remember kids, I'm flying my helicopter naked (or was it backwards?).

[DominusNovus]

Also, my next updates will be stuff on Rome's neighbors and other such trivia, before we get back to the timeline. Any ideas or suggestions on stuff I could include are welcome and appreciated.

[Diamond]

You might include more stuff on the actual cultures of Rome and the Han, and how they're being changed by interaction. What do clothing styles, trade, exploration, etc, etc, look like?

Here's an interesting thought: With two hugely powerful cultures (Rome and China) linked much closer than OTL, it seems to me that any or all 'barbarians' in between will be squeezed out, so to speak. Where will they go? India? Southeast Asia? Take to ships and discover Australia?

And where exactly is your Islam analog going to pop up, geographically? Hispania or Gaul seem the most likely, behind Egypt or Arabia...

[DuQuense]

I thought the time of short time Emporers wasn't till the 300~400. All your Emporers seem to only last 5~10 years. Can't we have some 20~25 yearers for some needed stablity.

[DominusNovus]

You might include more stuff on the actual cultures of Rome and the Han, and how they're being changed by interaction. What do clothing styles, trade, exploration, etc, etc, look like?

Here's an interesting thought: With two hugely powerful cultures (Rome and China) linked much closer than OTL, it seems to me that any or all 'barbarians' in between will be squeezed out, so to speak. Where will they go? India? Southeast Asia? Take to ships and discover Australia?

And where exactly is your Islam analog going to pop up, geographically? Hispania or Gaul seem the most likely, behind Egypt or Arabia...
Basicly, there's gonna be a Muhammad type guy, who I'm calling Iskander (arabic for Alexander, remember, Arabia has had Roman trading outposts, which have influenced their culture slightly) right now, though thats not set in stone. Anyway, he's the sone of a Meccan trader who converts to Christianity. They managed to piss of the Meccans and flee for their lives to Persia, where Iskander grows up. While there, he is influenced by Zoroastrian teachings and eventually creates his own version of Christianity.

[DominusNovus]

I thought the time of short time Emporers wasn't till the 300~400. All your Emporers seem to only last 5~10 years. Can't we have some 20~25 yearers for some needed stablity.
Meh, stability is overrated. Besides, things'll even out after the empire collapses. Blame the short reigns on the stress of ruling such a huge empire. Or the fact that of the last 5 emperors, Titus was the only one to die a natural death (1 of only 2 in the past 8 emperors). Besides, there were some pretty short reigns in the first century of OTL (Caligula, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Titus)

[DominusNovus]

Here's a mini-update before I start talking about foreign affairs and less tangible stuff (culture, language, food, monkeys, etc.).

##########

Quintus Flavius Severus, upon hearing that Vincentius had ascended the throne, addressed the Senate, saying that it was time that Rome was again ruled by true Romans, not Persians with Roman names. With the support of the Senate, Severus assembled an army and was preparing to march east when Vincentius himself arrived in Rome. Vincentius proposed an alternative to a bloody civil war. Vincentius would rule the eastern parts of the Empire while Severus would rule the western parts.

Severus agreed to discuss the idea and the two went to work at dividing the Empire. The Western Roman Empire would consist of Europe and Africa, while the Eastern Roman Empire would control the Asian provinces. The only land border would be the Canalis Aegyptum, with the Western Empire reserving the right to collect northbound tolls, and the Eastern Empire collecting southbound tolls. The various islands would be go to whichever Empire they were closer to (so Crete would go to the West, while Cyprus would go to the East). The Western Empire would be governed from Rome, the Eastern Empire, from Persepolis. The two empires would also had to pledge a defensive alliance for as long as they stood. The only point of contention was the Vincentius insisted that the Eastern Emperor be first among the two (kinda like the Pope and Patriarch). However, Vincentius was able to convince Severus to agree to this eventually.

The agreement worked out, Vincentius returned to Persepolis to govern his Empire, while Severus began his reign in Rome. All around the empire, the people hailed the agreement, as they were tired of the instability and civil wars of recent years. However, their hopes for peace and quiet, at least in the west, were soon dashed by the upcoming events.

##########

Heh, another cliffhanger. You guys think this works out alright? The Western Empire is actually the larger of the two and has a more secure border (short border in Europe, half of which is next to an ally, and the african barbarians aren't too much of a problem, they never did as much damaged as the european barbarians in OTL), but the Eastern Empire still has a larger population and is significantly richer.

[DuQuense]

IIRC there was [3~4 ago] a Discovery show about Rome and it pointed out that in the 200~300 period Most of the World population was ruled by Empires- Rome, Persia, India, Kymer, China, Olmec, & Pre- Inca.

With the red sea Canal There would be lots more Trade with India, and on to Kymer. Trade includes Ideas. With East Roma controling the Eythuran Sea this would Increase.

?Also was there a Interant preacher running around Palistine following his return from Tibet. & getting into trouble [Cruified] with the Poweres that Be?

?Did Palistine Revolt in 79 CE?

[DominusNovus]

Did Palistine Revolt in 79 CE?
Nope. No reason to, as client state status was independance enough.

[DominusNovus]

Hey guys, I'm gonna do a few more standard updates before I talk about the general situation of the world. Reason is that (spoiler), the western empire is about to fall. Kinda. Anyway, I figure it'll be more interesting to talk about varying cultures and such when you have several more nations in the picture (though, for the most part, they'll be fairly similar in terms of culture, for now).

[DuQuense]

No Revolt, = No Temple Destroyed,= No Disporia,= No Jews in Europe Major. Those Butterflies arn't just kicking up a gentle Breeze, Whe are talking Full blown Hurricane here. :eek:

[DominusNovus]

No Revolt, = No Temple Destroyed,= No Disporia,= No Jews in Europe Major. Those Butterflies arn't just kicking up a gentle Breeze, Whe are talking Full blown Hurricane here. :eek:
lol, didn't the whole conquering parthia and most of Europe kill the possibility of a gentle breeze?

BTW, there're basicly two possibilities that this TL can head for:
1) With societies more interconnected and developed, scientific and industrial revolutions kick off very early (before or around turn of millenium), and we get modern day technology circa 2000... AUC (circa AD 1250).
2) Huns, Mongols, plagues, etc. manage to keep things in check and things proceed only a little quicker than OTL (less than one century). Big difference is that all of the important states of Europe (from the baltic to Spain) have romance languages.

Of course, all of this is still well in the future of the TL, and I may very well do both (as plan #1 would be disqualified for the ICN) if I'm feeling ambitious.

[DuQuense]

Several posts back You asked about a Eurasia Map [Europe and Central asia] check out this site

http://www.sciences-po.fr/cartographie/cartotheque/cartotheques/fonds_cartes/jeu_fonds_cartes.html#continents

[DominusNovus]

oohhh, very very nice, thanks. :D

[DominusNovus]

Only the french would make a francocentric map of european rivers...

[DominusNovus]

have another update guys, on the house.

##########


Quintus Flavius Severus would be the Western Roman Emperor from AD 204 until AD 225. Severus would be an effective emperor, though he was one of the most autocratic Rome ever saw.

Severus was a diehard Roman, who mistrusted those he viewed as barbarians, including the Gothonians (who were quite Romanized by this time), the Heruli, and even the provincials in the distant reaches of the Western Empire. This mistrust was shown clearly by his policies as emperor. He made citizenship harder to attain, increased the tax burdens of the provinces, and increased the size of the army, to quell any unrest.

These policies did not earn him any favor in the provinces, or in the city of Rome itself, which also suffered from high taxes. All in all, there were 7 official attempts on his life, each of which failed and only succeeded in making him more paranoid.

Starting in the year AD 225, Severus began to campaign against the Gothonians, a longtime ally of Rome. Severus made no attempt to hide his disdain for these longtime allies and saw them only as a powerful threat. This would be Severus' most unpopular action as emperor, and was most hated by the soldiers he was commanding, who didn't want to risk their lives fighting a longtime ally and friend. Vincentius sent several letters to Severus to try to dissuade him, but to no avail.

The first battle of the campaign was fought outside of Sciripolis, a Gothonian town on the mouth of the Vistula river. The battle began in the Romans' favor, mainly due to the fact that they outnumbered the Gothonians. However, Severus, not satisfied with his soldiers performance, rode up to the front lines, to rally his troops. At this point, his horse was hit with several arrows and collapsed. Severus fell off and was crushed under the weight.

As news of his death raced through the Roman lines, chaos overcame the Legionaries. Some commanders ordered their troops to retreat, some continued to fight, and some even surrendered to the Gothonians.

Severus would be succeeded by Gaius Julius Varus, one of his commanders. He lacked the skill of Severus, and the Legions did not have the same mixture of fear, awe, and respect of him as they had of Severus. Large portions of the invasion force deserted, some even defected, and Varus had to order a general retreat.

##########

[MerryPrankster]

Ah. Is this the beginning of the fall of the Empire in the West?

[MerryPrankster]

I remember you said that the collapse of the Western Empire was coming soon.

[DominusNovus]

Survey says:
You bet your bippie.

God I love antiquated colloquialisms. :D

[MerryPrankster]

Then by all means, let the wild rumpus start!

I imagine the Goths will take advantage of their victory and the death of the Emperor to pull a Manzikert and seize a good-sized portion of the Western Empire in the aftermath of the Empire's political implosion. Other tribes to the East (perhaps even those defeated by the Eastern Emperors and looking for something else to do) will want a piece of the action.

What about our "Mohammed"?

[DominusNovus]

Matt, you're about dead on with the Manzikert analogy, though the chunk the Gothonians take is relatively small (the Western Empire is too big to take a large chunk out of). "Mohammad" won't come around for a century or two, after mainstream christian sects (with political disintigration happening before christianization, one group won't automatically dominate) have established themselves pretty well.

##########

Gaius Julius Varus would rule the Western Roman Empire from AD 225 to AD 233. His reign would see the beginning of the disintegration of the Empire.

By the time Varus was able to restore order to the legions, things were looking grim. Over half of the readily available forces were gone, and the remainder were demoralized after losing their commander in a battle against an ally. The Gothonians had considerable momentum and were invading Roman territory across the Vistula.

In the second battle of the Gothonian War, at Colonia Neposia, Varus' legions were defeated by the Gothonian army under the command of King Visimaris. After another defeat at Castra Aurelia, Varus came to the conclusion that he couldn't win. He negotiated a treaty with Visimaris that gave the Gothonians the provinces of Lemovia, Burgundia, and Vandalia, effectively pushing the Roman frontier back to the Viadrus.

Varus then returned to Rome to address the governance of the Empire. He faced an unruly military that didn't respect him and an overtaxed populace. The only way he could see to placate the military was to raise their funding, which meant higher taxes. This, of course, proved very unpopular, and Varus was assassanited by several Senators in AD 233. Upon Varus' death, the Senate proclaimed that the Republic was restored. The situation would not work out exactly as the Senate had hoped.

##########

[MerryPrankster]

"He negotiated a treaty with Visimaris that gave the Gothonians the provinces of Lemovia, Burgundia, and Vandalia, effectively pushing the Roman frontier back to the Viadrus."

It's been so long since we discussed the Vandal War that I'm not entirely sure where "Vandalia" is. Is Burgundia like OTL's Burgundy (near France)? Where's Lemovia? Is the Viadrus an OTL river, or is it a Latin/Roman name for one that, in our world, had a Germanic/Slavic name?

Excellent work on the TL so far...very interesting world.

While the West is collapsing, what's happening in the East? The Eastern Emperor is supposed to help out in the event of emergency, right? Or does he have his own problems?

The restoration of the Republic is an interesting idea. Something tells me the army, or at least a good-sized part of it, isn't going to cotton to the idea. "The situation would not work out exactly as the Senate had hoped" certainly sounds ominous.

[DominusNovus]

"He negotiated a treaty with Visimaris that gave the Gothonians the provinces of Lemovia, Burgundia, and Vandalia, effectively pushing the Roman frontier back to the Viadrus."

It's been so long since we discussed the Vandal War that I'm not entirely sure where "Vandalia" is. Is Burgundia like OTL's Burgundy (near France)? Where's Lemovia? Is the Viadrus an OTL river, or is it a Latin/Roman name for one that, in our world, had a Germanic/Slavic name?

Excellent work on the TL so far...very interesting world.

While the West is collapsing, what's happening in the East? The Eastern Emperor is supposed to help out in the event of emergency, right? Or does he have his own problems?

The restoration of the Republic is an interesting idea. Something tells me the army, or at least a good-sized part of it, isn't going to cotton to the idea. "The situation would not work out exactly as the Senate had hoped" certainly sounds ominous.

The Viadrus is the Oder River. So Gothonia basicly is the baltic states and Poland. Burgundia is just basicly the middle region of the territory between the Viadrus and Vistula river (the northern region being Lemovia, and the southern region being Vandalia).

The Eastern Emperor does have its own problems, but its mainly interested in isolationism right now, screw the west (unless, of course, the east needed some help).

The restoration of the republic will work. Well, kinda. There's plenty of ambitious officers in the Legions right now, and little loyalty to Rome, which has been screwing over the provinces for over a generation.

[DominusNovus]

I think I'm making up for lost time. Well, here you guys go, the end of the Western Empire (it didn't last very long, did it?).

##########

In AD 233, the Roman Republic was restored with the assassination of Emperor Gaius Julius Varus. The Senate and the People of Rome would again rule.

Well, that was the idea, at least. However, there was trouble from the start. The Senate only had the loyalty of a fraction of the legions. To make matters worse, there were several charismatic and ambitious commanders in the military, just jumping at the chance to become the next Caesar.

The first general to rebel was Decius Crispus Agricola, who had the support of the African and Egyptian Legions. Meanwhile, in Hispania, the Legions supported Numerius Sidonius Trajanus. The Senate might have been able to quell these usurpers, had Trajanus been more ambitious. However, he was content to rule just Hispania and made an alliance with Agricola, preventing the Republic from playing the two commanders against each other. In addition, this treaty also prompted another general Oppius Helvetius Catus, who was supported by the legions in Germania (rougly between the Rhenus and Viadrus). Catus soon joined the new alliance, opening up yet another front on the civil war.

Still, there was hope for the Republic in the Eastern Roman Empire. They were, after all, bound by treaty to defend the Western Roman Empire. However, the Emperor of the East, Herius Asinius Caspar, supported yet another general, Decius Tadius Balbus, popular in Thracia, Pannonia, and Dacia.

Assaulted on all sides, the Roman Republic lost battle after battle. By AD 235, Gallia was under the control of the rebels, cutting off Britannia from Italia. Cut off from Republican authority and support, the Britannic Isles became more and more autonomous, eventually declaring its own independence in AD 238.

However, the Roman Republic would be save from extinction by an unlikely ally, the Gothonian King Visimaris. With the Gothonians in the war, the war stabilized. On one side, there were the rebels, Agricola, Trajanus, and Catus. Then there was Balbus, with the backing of the eastern empire. Last, but not least, were the Roman and Britannic Republics, allied with the Regnum Gothonia.

The Civil War would drag on for another 5 years, without much change on any front of the war. It was at this time that the so called "Imperatoris Pacum" (Generals of Peace). These commanders arose by appealing to the people's hopes for independence and an end to the war . The first country to rebel was Aegyptus, followed Gallia. The rebels' position seemed to be weakening, with revolts in their respective core regions. Balbus was about to press his advantage when he face similar revolts in Pannonia and Dacia.

The Imperatoris Pacum quickly made peace with the Republicans. Those in rebel land made peace with Balbus, those in Balbus' land made peace with the rebels. The rest of the war was simply a winding down as various factions stopped fighting. The official end came in AD 247, when Aegyptus made peace with Agricola's African Empire. As the dust settled, the map of Europe was now divided into several new states.

From east to west, there was the Britannic Republic, African Empire, Hispanian Empire, Gallic Kingdom, Germanian Empire, Roman Republic (composed of Italia, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Greece, and Crete), Pannonian Kingdom, Gothonian Kingdom, Dacian Kingdom, Thracian Empire, and the Egyptian Kingdom. The Western Roman Empire was, to put it mildly, dead (though the Roman Republic would claim to be the successor, as would the Thracian Empire).

##########

This leaves Europe basicly in the situation of the middle ages, except that the varying states are relatively urban nations, compared to OTL. They're also almost purely Roman, except for Gothonia, with is a Romano-Germanic nation (they were incorporating much of Roman culture on their own, then they conquered heavily Romanized territory). I'll give you guys a map in a bit.

Of course, I'm open to and interesting in any thoughts or ideas you guys have.

[MerryPrankster]

Excellent work, Dominus. It seems you've collapsed the entire Roman Empire in just a few years, all triggered by one unlucky Emperor being squashed by his horse.

Bravo!

Whither Christianity? When times get nasty, people start questioning their established assumptions. I imagine with all these wars and social breakdowns, Christianity would be spreading like wildfire.

Other "Eastern mystery cults" (Mithras, Isis, Bacchals, etc) might spread quickly as well--without the brownie points (and on occasion, physical backing) from being the "official religion of the Roman Empire," Christianity might face more competition in this TL.

Plus we've got our "Mohammed" waiting in the wings...

[DominusNovus]

Excellent work, Dominus. It seems you've collapsed the entire Roman Empire in just a few years, all triggered by one unlucky Emperor being squashed by his horse.

Bravo!

Whither Christianity? When times get nasty, people start questioning their established assumptions. I imagine with all these wars and social breakdowns, Christianity would be spreading like wildfire.

Other "Eastern mystery cults" (Mithras, Isis, Bacchals, etc) might spread quickly as well--without the brownie points (and on occasion, physical backing) from being the "official religion of the Roman Empire," Christianity might face more competition in this TL.

Plus we've got our "Mohammed" waiting in the wings...
Thanks. Christianity will become the dominant religion, but, with a less centralized region, it will be a decentralized religion in the beginning. It'll try to centralize itself when order is restored, but it won't quite work.

[DominusNovus]

Here's whats happening in the east, btw. Not nearly as interesting, of course.

##########

Appius Claudius Vincentius would rule the Eastern Roman empire from AD 204 to AD 228. His 24 years as emperor were relatively peaceful, virtually nothing eventful happening.

Vincentius did try to stop Severus from invading Gothonian territory, but was unsuccessful. While he bound by treaty to defend the western empire against its enemies, Vincentius did not send any assistance, as Severus was clearly the aggressor.

Vincentius would die of old age in AD 228, after a long and uneventful reign. He would be succeeded by his son, Appius Claudius Diodorus.

Diodorus would also rule for a long time, from AD 228 to AD 249. It was during his reign that the Western Civil War occured and organized persecution of Christians began.

When the war broke out, Diodorus was torn, as he did not support the Republic, seeing it as an unstable institution. He also didn't support Agricola, simply because the two did not get along at all. So, Diodorus found a commander who he felt he could control, Balbus. By supporting Balbus, Diodorus effectively eliminated any chance that the civil war would end quickly.

Diodorus had planned assisting Balbus in the war, but the Kushans to the east were again causing trouble, forcing him to downscale the support he could provide. The end of the war was a disappointment to Diodorus, though he was comforted by the fact that none of the opposing sides really won.

The other noteworthy aspect of Diodorus' reign was his unprecedented persecution of Christians. There were major Christian sects in Anatolia and Syria, as well as smaller ones in Armenia and Mesopotamia. Diodorus was suspicious of them and began massive persecutions against the Christians. While the number of executions is often exaggerated, it is known that Josephus IV, king of Judea (which had long persecuted Christians as heretics), was appalled and provided refuge to some.

The persecutions drove many Christians out of the Empire, though some simply went to Anatolia, where Christians were actually becoming a sizable minority (estimates run to about 30-40%). By the time of Diodorus' death, Anatolia was in open revolt.

Diodorus died in AD 249, leaving the Eastern Empire to his son, Sextus Claudius Sophus.

##########

[MerryPrankster]

What happens to Anatolia? Does it successfully sever itself from the Eastern Empire, or is it put down gorily? What happens to Christianity as a result of this? If it's gorily put down, does that mean that pacifism becomes a bigger part of Christianity or, if successful, do they establish a theocracy and the theocratic elements come to dominate?

[DominusNovus]

What happens to Anatolia? Does it successfully sever itself from the Eastern Empire, or is it put down gorily? What happens to Christianity as a result of this? If it's gorily put down, does that mean that pacifism becomes a bigger part of Christianity or, if successful, do they establish a theocracy and the theocratic elements come to dominate?
They are going to go independent, but remember, the Christians are just a large minority in Anatolia at the time, and they need the support of the other Anatolians. So, they won't have a theocracy, but I'm sure most of the leaders will be Christian.

[MerryPrankster]

Dominus,

Cool. What's Anatolia going to be? A republic, a monarchy (absolute or otherwise), or something else? And what will they call it? It certainly won't be Turkey.

By the way, is there a map coming? I recall you said something about it earlier, and I'm a bit confused about Dacia and Thracia. Thracia is OTL Thrace near Greece, I assume, while Dacia's up in Romania, right? Did they get seized by minor "Generals of the Peace" who weren't able to grab big territories like Egypt? Or am I totally wrong and Dacia and Thracia are other things?

[DominusNovus]

Dominus,

Cool. What's Anatolia going to be? A republic, a monarchy (absolute or otherwise), or something else? And what will they call it? It certainly won't be Turkey.

By the way, is there a map coming? I recall you said something about it earlier, and I'm a bit confused about Dacia and Thracia. Thracia is OTL Thrace near Greece, I assume, while Dacia's up in Romania, right? Did they get seized by minor "Generals of the Peace" who weren't able to grab big territories like Egypt? Or am I totally wrong and Dacia and Thracia are other things?
Anatolia will probably be a monarchy of some form. And they'll probably call it the Regnum Anatolia.

I'll get a map up soon, but, as a rule of thumb, any of the kingdoms in Europe were created by the Generals of Peace, with the Empires being the regions ruled by generals who failed in their bid to become Emperor of the West.

[DominusNovus]

One more update on the east, before I either get to the west again, or make some maps.

##########

Sextus Claudius Sophus would reign from AD 249 to AD 265. He would continue the persecution of Christians, and would lose both Anatolia and Syria.

Sophus sent troops to Anatolia to quell the revolt in the region, under the command of Publius Julius Flaminius. However, Flaminius, a native of nearby Syria, was actually a Christian and was torn between his duty to the emperor and his Christian beliefs. He finally decided to side with the Christians, as did his loyal army.

Flaminius quickly marched into Syria, securing the region for the Anatolian forces. After the battle of Antioch, Sophus accepted the independence of the Kingdom of Anatolia, under King Octavius Plato, though he required them to sign a treaty stating that they would come to the Empire's defense, should they be needed.

Sophus died of a heart attack in AD 265. His son, Marcus Claudius Anicetus, would ascend the principate of the East, which he would rule until his death in AD 283.

##########

[DominusNovus]

Here's a map, just of Europe though (Africa should be pretty easy to figure out).
Yellow- Imperium Hispania
Blue- Respublica Britannia
Pink- Regnum Gallia
Red- Respublica Romana
Light Green- Imperium Germania
Purple- Regnum Pannonia
Green- Regnum Gothonia
Dark Red- Regnum Dacia
Orange- Imperium Thracia.

[Diamond]

Wonderful TL. I like the West's dissolution the way you did it; it actually kind of makes more sense than the way it happened OTL. :)

How is China reacting to all this? Is trade being disrupted to the point where the Han feel they need to be more proactive about maintaining their trade routes?

Nice map BTW.

[DominusNovus]

Wonderful TL. I like the West's dissolution the way you did it; it actually kind of makes more sense than the way it happened OTL. :)

How is China reacting to all this? Is trade being disrupted to the point where the Han feel they need to be more proactive about maintaining their trade routes?

Nice map BTW.
The Han are still maintaing a significant ammount of trade with the Eastern Empire. The remnants of the west are stable enough for trade to continue.

I'm not entirely sure what to do with China, actually, and I'd love some input on what you guys think would happen. Besides some seige advantages (like torsion catapults, IIRC), what did the Romans have the the Chinese didn't? What kinda of effect would becoming trading partners with an equal, on the other side of the world, have on China? Would they become less isolationist? Eventually, I'm gonna have them start to expand, how big were the Han on expansion (other than vassalizing everyone on the silk road)? I know the Tang were fairly expansionist, but I was hoping to get a more expansionist China earlier than the 600s.

[MerryPrankster]

"under King Octavius Plato"

Who's he? Is he a historical personality, someone you invented, or did the Christian general take that name as his "royal name"?

Is there a map of Africa and the Middle East coming? It might be helpful now that things aren't going so well for the Eastern Empire.

Overall, very good job so far. Keep up the good work.

[DominusNovus]

"under King Octavius Plato"

Who's he? Is he a historical personality, someone you invented, or did the Christian general take that name as his "royal name"?

Is there a map of Africa and the Middle East coming? It might be helpful now that things aren't going so well for the Eastern Empire.

Overall, very good job so far. Keep up the good work.
Everyone since Claudius (back in the AD 60s) is made up. He's not the same guy as general Flaminius. I picture Flaminius as a very honorable guy, who's torn between his loyalties. Because of this, I don't see him as becoming king, but supporting another king falls in line.

As for Africa and the Mideast, I'm trying to find good maps to work with, any ideas guys?

[DominusNovus]

Heh, check it out:
http://www.changingthetimes.co.uk/samples/12thfeb04/glory_of_rome.htm
Its not the entire thing, but its all that I had when I sent it in.
Cool.

[DominusNovus]

I hate to bump, but...
bump.

Actually, I'm really looking for input on any ideas on whats going on in China. I'm nowhere near as well versed in Chinese history as I am Roman history. Any ideas at all? The Romans would have introduced some new military technology to the Chinese by now (torsion catapults, some of their infantry tactics), what effect would this have? Are there any civil technologies Rome had that China didn't? What about philosophies, religion?

Here's my basic idea for whats going on in China:
First of all, the Han dynasty, which has gotten rich with the increase (over OTL) in trade with the west, is still strong, while it fell in AD 220 in OTL. With its increased power and wealth, the Han Empire managed to conquer the totality of Korea. It also conquered Champa (south vietnam), and went about establishing a border along the Mekong. Note that these conquest weren't always direct, many were vassalizations. The main reason for the increased Chinese interest in the south is sea trade with the Romans (even before the Canalis Aegyptum is built, Rome has Persia, making sea trade fairly easy). So, we're gonna sea Southeast Asia become more and more oriented with China, rather than mostly oriented with India, with a little bit of China thrown in. I think that with all of this martime activity going on, they might discover Taiwan and colonize it. Also, the Japanese were often pirates, so China might make itself felt in Japan, to protect sea trade.

Does that sound right to you guys? I know I have China more expansionist, but most of it (except for Korea, but they were always trying to conquer Korea) is in the interests of trade. Also, the expansions along the silk road (under Ban Chao) were what brought China into contact with Rome, so they might be more favorable to throwing their weight around a bit more.

Now, please. Thoughts. Input. Ideas. Beautiful virgins.

Better wait on that last one, don't want me getting distracted, do ya? :D

[MerryPrankster]

Chinese conquest of Vietnam? The Vietnamese have a history of rebelling against Chinese rule...will they end up being assimilated despite themselves (like the Germans) or will that province be a perpetual source of trouble for the Chinese?

Perhaps the Chinese will do unto the Vietnamese what the Romans did in the East...round up the entire population and scatter it, then bring in settlers from elsewhere. The same with Korea if they're too troublesome.

However, the Japanese often saw Korea as a "dagger pointed at the heart of Japan." Perhaps the Japanese, in response to China's aggressive behavior, colonize Taiwan, the Phillippines, and even Hainan Island. In the event of any trouble near the Home Islands, they can make life difficult for southern China. That could be a "deterrence" thing.

The Japanese, if they want to be really annoying, could shelter refugees from Korea (like perhaps the ruling dynasty). That could be the pretext for a war between China and Japan, or possibly a way the Japanese could needle the Chinese if they so desired.

Okay, we've done a lot with China and Rome in this TL; what about India? The increased Silk Road trade and the Roman presence just next door could butterfly massively...perhaps the steppe peoples, kept under control by the Romans or Chinese, don't invade India Aryan-style. That'll change India's political situation A LOT.

Also, if the Emperor of the East wants to make gains to make up for the loss of Anatolia and Syria, he could invade western India. Remember, Alexander the Great was attracted by the great wealth of the region (rubies, spices, etc); perhaps the Eastern Roman Empire could make incursions into Baluchistan, the Pashtun areas, etc.

A Roman presence in Afghanistan? That might work. Perhaps, if we want to contact the Eastern Empire a bit, losing a war in Afghanistan could be a start. Like Varus's loss to the Germans (in OTL) deterred Rome from expanding further in the North. That could factor into our "Mohammed"...the Byzantines and Persians were weakened by their constant wars, enabling the Arabs to conquer Persia and bite off a big hunk of Byzantium. A never-ending Roman war in Afghanistan could make conditions right for "Mohammed."

What great empires were there in India at this point in OTL? The East Roman Empire could get in a perpetual war with one of them analogous to the Byzantine-Persian Wars of OTL that set the stage for Mohammed.

Also, I think Roman contact with India might lead to Hinduism or Buddhism moving into the Empire. That'll make the religious situation...interesting (more so than OTL, as Zoroastrianism is now part of the Roman religious sphere too).

[MerryPrankster]

I couldn't supply any beautiful virgins, but I'm hope you like my ideas/input.

[DominusNovus]

Chinese conquest of Vietnam? The Vietnamese have a history of rebelling against Chinese rule...will they end up being assimilated despite themselves (like the Germans) or will that province be a perpetual source of trouble for the Chinese?

Perhaps the Chinese will do unto the Vietnamese what the Romans did in the East...round up the entire population and scatter it, then bring in settlers from elsewhere. The same with Korea if they're too troublesome.

However, the Japanese often saw Korea as a "dagger pointed at the heart of Japan." Perhaps the Japanese, in response to China's aggressive behavior, colonize Taiwan, the Phillippines, and even Hainan Island. In the event of any trouble near the Home Islands, they can make life difficult for southern China. That could be a "deterrence" thing.

The Japanese, if they want to be really annoying, could shelter refugees from Korea (like perhaps the ruling dynasty). That could be the pretext for a war between China and Japan, or possibly a way the Japanese could needle the Chinese if they so desired.

Okay, we've done a lot with China and Rome in this TL; what about India? The increased Silk Road trade and the Roman presence just next door could butterfly massively...perhaps the steppe peoples, kept under control by the Romans or Chinese, don't invade India Aryan-style. That'll change India's political situation A LOT.

Also, if the Emperor of the East wants to make gains to make up for the loss of Anatolia and Syria, he could invade western India. Remember, Alexander the Great was attracted by the great wealth of the region (rubies, spices, etc); perhaps the Eastern Roman Empire could make incursions into Baluchistan, the Pashtun areas, etc.

A Roman presence in Afghanistan? That might work. Perhaps, if we want to contact the Eastern Empire a bit, losing a war in Afghanistan could be a start. Like Varus's loss to the Germans (in OTL) deterred Rome from expanding further in the North. That could factor into our "Mohammed"...the Byzantines and Persians were weakened by their constant wars, enabling the Arabs to conquer Persia and bite off a big hunk of Byzantium. A never-ending Roman war in Afghanistan could make conditions right for "Mohammed."

What great empires were there in India at this point in OTL? The East Roman Empire could get in a perpetual war with one of them analogous to the Byzantine-Persian Wars of OTL that set the stage for Mohammed.

Also, I think Roman contact with India might lead to Hinduism or Buddhism moving into the Empire. That'll make the religious situation...interesting (more so than OTL, as Zoroastrianism is now part of the Roman religious sphere too).

Lots of stuff to think about here (lotsa thanks, thats alot of stuff to think about). Japan wasn't really anywhere near united, even culturally at this time. That wouldn't really happen until the T'ang dynasty of China. Korea was split up into seperate states, though the Han had conquered the larger ones in OTL.

India has the Kushan empire (which were basicly steppe peoples) already firmly entrenched in the north, I might have them expand to the south. As for afganistan, most of that is in Saka (Roman and Han ally) hands.

Our Mohhamad is going to be a friend of the eastern empire, so he won't have to conquer them (I'm thinking he'll convert the emperor and marry into the royal family, creating a kind of theocracy eventually).

How popular do you guys think the eastern religions (hinduism, buddhism) will be in Roman territory?

[DuQuense]

According to Joesph Cambell one of the Big differences in Europe vs the Indian Religions had to do with Europe having Four distinct Seasons, while India [& Indo-china] had almost continual year round growing seasons. This meant a difference in the View of Death and Rebirth, Buddism & Hindu may enter the eastern empire, without beeing more than a fringe influence in the west. another difference between them to drive the seperation

[MerryPrankster]

Duquesne,

Interesting idea, especially about how it would affect the East more so than the West.

Where does the Middle East fall vis a vis the climate? Christianity is a Middle Eastern faith that simply lost its heartland to another faith (Islam) and became strong in the periphery (Europe). How does your theory apply to the Norse/Germanic and Greco-Roman faiths.

Also, I have some more ideas to contribute to the TL...

1) Romanization of Religion in the East-Alexander the Great's conquests led to the establishment of Hellenistic regimes in the East and a great deal of influence by Greek philosophy, religion, etc. from Anatolia all the way to India. Will the Roman conquest have the same effect? The Romans borrowed a lot of Greek stuff, so it might be a second helping of Hellenism, but could the Romans contribute their own stuff?

2) Romanization of Religion in the North-How might the Greco-Roman faith interact with the gods worshipped by the Germans and Nordic peoples? It has been said (by John/Abdul Hadi Pasha) that the Greco-Roman and Northern gods were all "Indo-European types"--what effects might such a theory have on the Northern gods? Might the Norse/Germanic faith get assimilated into the Roman system or vice versa? "Vikings for Zeus" making war against the Christians in the Mediterranean lands or perhaps offerings to Thor in the Roman forum?

3) The Huns-Will Europe be on the receiving end from steppe nomads later on? An expanding China could force the tribes of the steppes to start moving West, and a disunited Europe might fall before them (of course, a disunited Europe could advance faster technologically and invent some marvelous anti-cavalry weapon). If y'all want to butterfly away the Huns, we could always invent some new tribal confederation to take the Huns' place.

[DuQuense]

There is a Christian Heresy that holds that Jesus was talking about Reincarnation. Given that he spent the missing 17 years wandering around India & Tibet.

The Norse-German Religion has aspects of Reincarnation. You are the Reincarnation of Your GGGrandfather, your brother is gggg ect. The coming Heritic [Islam] maybe combines these.

the Modern Asgardians, ask why the Northern people should worship a Desert God, when they have perfectly good Gods of their own. I was Surfing when I came across Campbell on the University channel, No Idea About mid East Climate. Except I assume the Desert God comes out.

[DominusNovus]

Duquesne,

Interesting idea, especially about how it would affect the East more so than the West.

Where does the Middle East fall vis a vis the climate? Christianity is a Middle Eastern faith that simply lost its heartland to another faith (Islam) and became strong in the periphery (Europe). How does your theory apply to the Norse/Germanic and Greco-Roman faiths.

Also, I have some more ideas to contribute to the TL...

1) Romanization of Religion in the East-Alexander the Great's conquests led to the establishment of Hellenistic regimes in the East and a great deal of influence by Greek philosophy, religion, etc. from Anatolia all the way to India. Will the Roman conquest have the same effect? The Romans borrowed a lot of Greek stuff, so it might be a second helping of Hellenism, but could the Romans contribute their own stuff?

2) Romanization of Religion in the North-How might the Greco-Roman faith interact with the gods worshipped by the Germans and Nordic peoples? It has been said (by John/Abdul Hadi Pasha) that the Greco-Roman and Northern gods were all "Indo-European types"--what effects might such a theory have on the Northern gods? Might the Norse/Germanic faith get assimilated into the Roman system or vice versa? "Vikings for Zeus" making war against the Christians in the Mediterranean lands or perhaps offerings to Thor in the Roman forum?

3) The Huns-Will Europe be on the receiving end from steppe nomads later on? An expanding China could force the tribes of the steppes to start moving West, and a disunited Europe might fall before them (of course, a disunited Europe could advance faster technologically and invent some marvelous anti-cavalry weapon). If y'all want to butterfly away the Huns, we could always invent some new tribal confederation to take the Huns' place.

1) Yeah,the Romans will have Romanized the east, similar to Alexander Hellenizing them. So, you'll have a mix of Persian, Greek, Roman, soon Arabic, maybe even some Indian cultures. It'll be interesting.

2) I actually hadn't thought about that. I'm sure that some of the northern cults will be as interesting to the Romans as the eastern cults. Eventually, the whole place with be Christianized, as in OTL. Still, a temple to Thor in Pagan Rome would be interesting...

3) Yeah, the Huns will be coming along, relatively on schedule. They've made brief appearances so far (only as losers from attacks by both Rome and China), but will soon get their act together and start marching west. I'm thinking they'll be able to take down some of the kingdoms (probably Pannonia and Dacia, since they stradle the Hungarian plain), but, with the West being decentralized while still unified enough (culture, language, to some extent, religion) to band together against a common foe, they'll have a hard time expanding. Also, populations are much higher than they were in OTL, so there's more men to fight them. So, you'll end up with Dacia and Pannonia conquered, the Huns trying to expand outward, thwarted, settling down, and gradually assimilated into the populace.

[MerryPrankster]

Dominus,

Some sort of longer-lasting Hun empire in Eastern Europe would be interesting.

I'd recommend looking up some info on the Bulgarian khanate/kingdom; it could be a good example of an Eastern European nomad empire that ultimately "Europeanizes."

[Duncan]

Chinese conquest of Vietnam? The Vietnamese have a history of rebelling against Chinese rule...will they end up being assimilated despite themselves (like the Germans) or will that province be a perpetual source of trouble for the Chinese?

No, what he said was Chinese conquest of Champa....

The Han already hold the parts of modern Vietnam inhabited by ethnic Vietnamese, that is to say the north of modern VN. They conquered this around 100 BC, taking over the Nanyue (=NamViet) kingdom established originally by a Chinese general. It remained Chinese till the 10th century in OTL, despite intermittent rebellions.

Central and Southern Vietnam in this period was occupied, as DN has suggested, by Champa, usually called Linyi in Chinese sources. The Cham are a completely different people from the Vietnamese; they are Indonesian speakers, possibly migrants at some unknown date or possibly indigenous. At this period they raided Chinese Vietnam, but were gradually conquered by the Vietmnamese between the 12th and 15th centuries. Now they're a small minority nationality in Vietnam.

What will be the consequences of a Chinese expansion to Champa is hard to say. In OTL the Chams were, like most of SE Asia, subject to a major Indian influence and became Hindu, Buddhist and eventually Muslim. This Indian influence probably won't happen now.

If China is successful the Vietnamese will be totally Sinicised and will end up no more distinct than the original inhabitants of Wu, Chu or Shu. Expect a good few rebellions on the way, though.

[DominusNovus]

Hey, you know your East Asian history pretty well Duncan. Much better than me, it seems (I just gleaned what info I had from www.friesian.com). Any good ideas for what else I can do with the Han?

BTW, I'm gonna have a summary of what the situation is overall pretty soon. I had to when I noticed that I ended the last western empire update at AD 247, 1000 years after the founding of Rome. Seems like a nice whole number.

[Duncan]

Hey, you know your East Asian history pretty well Duncan.

I know a bit, but it's such a huge subject...

If you want to read some more on China in this period, Rafe de Crespigny, who's one of the leading scholars of the Han and Three Kingdoms period, has got some superb material online - look at http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/decrespigny/

http://www.silk-road.com/artl/stirrup.shtml and http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~pearce/introduction.htm may be useful as well.

Any good ideas for what else I can do with the Han?

I think they are going to fall. More territory and more money aren't going to save them, if anything it will make the problem worse - more warlords with bigger armies rampaging over wider territories, contact with more barbarians to recruit troops from. The problem with Eastern Han was that they never established as strong a state structure as Western Han. Too many over-mighty subjects, aristocrats with huge estates and private armies of tenants and dependants, too much factionalism with Imperial inlaws and eunuchs at court, too little real military strength inside the Empire as opposed to in the frontier provinces. If China is lucky, whoever re-establishes central power will be a stronger and more stable dynasty than the Western Jin and will be able to prevent the barbarians from forming kingdoms on Chinese soil; but I wouldn't count on it.

[DominusNovus]

Here's whats going on in Europe at the moment.

##########

It was the middle of the third century AD. The city of Rome was just over 1000 years old and had lost most of its empire. To the east was the Eastern Roman Empire, centered around the ancient city of Persepolis. Further to the east was the Kushan Empire and, beyond that, the Han Empire of China.

Europe was divided up between the successor states of the Western Roman Empire, along with a few non-Roman states, and many barbarians tribes. The most noteworthy were Britannia, the Roman Republic, Gothonia, Egypt, and the Heruli tribes of Scandinavia.

Britannia was nominally a republic, but the real power lay in the hands of the military. Its people were excellent seafarers and the islands prospered from the active trade in the region, which had not diminished much, even with the death of the Empire.

The Roman Republic was a highly centralized state, which would become its own undoing. Almost all power was invested in Rome, even though the other cities of Italia and Achaea were just as prosperous. There was much unrest in these major cities, such as Aquileia, Mediolanum, Ravenna, Neopolis, Brundisium, and Syracusae, in Italia, and Olympia, Corinthus, Sparta, Athenae, Delphi, and Apollonia, in Achaea.

Gothonia was the most powerful state in Europe at the time. Under king Visimaris, Gothonia had done well for itself in the Great Civil War. Though it was still allied to Rome and Britannia, it was uninterested in foreign affairs at this time. Gothonia was transforming itself from a Germanic kingdom with Latin overlays into a unique blending of the two. Their army was modeled after the Roman Legions, though there was a heavier emphasis on archers, renowned for their stealth and accuracy. The government was a hereditary monarchy, though there was a Senate that served an advisory role, and it was usually the military that decided who would succeed the king. The capital city was Atreupolis, built on the mouth of the Fusta (West Dvina) river [I'm not 100% sure on that name, can anyone back me up?].

Eqypt was the richest of the successor states, due to its control of the Canalis Aegyptum. Alexandria, its capital, was larger than even Rome itself. Merchants from the world over traded in its markets and equally cosmopolitan philosophers, scholars, and missionaries debated and preached among the halls of the museums, libraries, and temples.

Far to the north, the Heruli tribes were beginning to outgrow their resources in their homeland. Seeking trading opportunities, plunder, and new land, they began to look to the sea. The best seafarers in the region (even better than the Britannians), they began to apply their talents to raiding. The first recorded raid was on a villa outside of Praetoria, along the eastern coast of Britannia. This raid would be the first of many, which would ultimately affect the course of European history dramatically.

##########

It'll be interesting to see how an early "viking" age and the barbarian invasions interract (though many of the barbarians have already been conquered, except for the really nasty ones, like the Huns). Anyway, after this, I'll cover Persia and India, then China. After that, I'll cover culture, technology, religion, etc. Then, back to the timeline.

[DominusNovus]

Here's some more review. BTW, I messed up on the last update. The capital of Gothonia is on the Niemen, not the West Dvina river. Problem is, I've got no clue what the ancient name for the Niemen river is. Any ideas guys?

##########

The western half of Asia was dominated by the Eastern Roman Empire, with the kingdoms of Saka and Anatolia on its periphery, and the Kushan Empire in northern India.

The Eastern Roman Empire, under the the rule of Sextus Claudius Sophus, was the most powerful state in the world (due to the fact that the Han empire of China was decaying), though it had seen better days. It had just lost the Anatolian Peninsula and Syria, but used the opportunity to its advantage, exiling many Christians to these regions. Other than this, the Empire was stable, though it ruled over a diverse population. The majority of the population were Persians or Iranians, with a large Greek population along the Tigris-Euphrates, a large Roman population along the Caspian and in the old Parthian heartland, and, unsurprisingly, a large Armenian population in Armenia. The capital city of Persepolis, while not as large as cities such as Rome or Alexandria, was nonetheless wealthy and a deserving capital of the mighty empire.

The newborn kingdom of Anatolia was the first Christian nation in the world. While Christianity was the official religion, other religions were tolerated, to varying degrees (Judaism and Zoroastrianism were tolerated more than traditional Paganism), mainly because the Christians were not quite in the majority. While the kingdom did have a defense treaty with the Eastern Roman Empire, it was more closely tied to the successor states of the west, having a Greco-Roman culture.

The Saka kingdom was the last remnant of the Parthian empire. All the other regions had been annexed or were client states of the Romans. While the Saka were nominally subject to the Han, that empire was in no position to assert its suzerainty. While this allowed the Saka complete independence, it also left them more vulnerable to their enemies, the Kushan empire.

The Kushans were descended from the Yuezhi tribes that had been driven out of China. They had established a strong empire, stretching from the Jaxartes river to the north (in Afganistan), to the Narmada river in central India. Their capital was at Mathura, along the Yamuha river (a tributary of the Ganges). The militaristic empire was rapidly expanding, focusing most of its efforts southward into India, though it was beginning to take new interest in the Saka. If the Kushans were to conquer the Saka, they would be able to monopolize the land routes of the silke trade.

##########

[MerryPrankster]

Are the Kushans going to conquer the Saka? That could cause some interesting things vis a vis the Eastern Empire, China, and our "Mohammed."

[MerryPrankster]

The only other names for the Nieman River that I've been able to find are "Neman" or "Nemanus." Perhpas the Romans didn't have a different name for it. "Nemanus" sounds a little Slavic; perhaps, since the Goths are the dominant culture, it should stay "Nieman."

Perhaps Otis_Tarda knows the actual facts; he's Polish.

[MerryPrankster]

You said earlier that the Huns will conquer two of the post-Roman states in Europe. A strong Hunnic Empire will deflect the various other migratory groups elsewhere. In the "Eastern Empire Falls, West Lasts Until 15th Century" thread, it was suggested that a strong Hun state north of the Black Sea would deflect the Oghuz Turks and, later, the Slavs, across the Caucasus into Anatolia.

You want to incorporate that into this TL?

[DominusNovus]

You said earlier that the Huns will conquer two of the post-Roman states in Europe. A strong Hunnic Empire will deflect the various other migratory groups elsewhere. In the "Eastern Empire Falls, West Lasts Until 15th Century" thread, it was suggested that a strong Hun state north of the Black Sea would deflect the Oghuz Turks and, later, the Slavs, across the Caucasus into Anatolia.

You want to incorporate that into this TL?

Something along those lines. Few of the barbarian tribes will make it into "roman" land, and those that do won't come in enough force to dramatically change things. The vast majority will probably end up in roman lands as mercenaries. The Huns will pull it off, and they'll hold off the other tribes for awhile, though they'll kinda collapse themselves.

Most of the tribes will probably end up heading into Persian lands. This will destablize the region enough that "Mohammed" and his religion will be more welcomed as a unifying force (and his Arab allies will help to breathe new life into the eastern empire).

[Diamond]

I don't really have any suggestions; I'm really too weak in this area to give you anything helpful. I'll probably only spot glaring errors, tho this far after the POD, they're most likely not really errors at all anymore, eh? :)

I'm just along for the ride - keep up the good work.

[DominusNovus]

I don't really have any suggestions; I'm really too weak in this area to give you anything helpful. I'll probably only spot glaring errors, tho this far after the POD, they're most likely not really errors at all anymore, eh? :)

I'm just along for the ride - keep up the good work.
Yeah, it'll be hard to actually have errors by this point. The only thing I can think of is when America is discovered. I could mess up something then.

[DominusNovus]

Here's the last regional summary.

##########

The east was still dominated by the Han Empire, at least nominally. Over the course of the past century, the Han had used their wealth to expand their empire.

The first to fall to the Han were the independent Koreans on the southern tip of Korea. The Han did not conquer much until the sea trade with Rome became to rival the land route. Troubled by the Champa who were harassing their merchants, the Empire marched south and conquered the Champa, dispersing them across the empire, and replacing them with Han colonists. Most of the other nations lying along the coast got the message, and paid tribute to the Han. Also, around this time, the island of Taiwan began to be settled.

The only other threat to trade was from pirates raiding from Japan (Wa, to the Han). The Han eventually suppressed these raids by setting up forts on the Japanese islands themselves. The Japanese were either conquered or were forced to pay tribute to the Han. The conquered were, of course, replaced with settlers from the mainland.

However, by the third century, the empire was in dire straights. The nobility had more power than the Emperor, and were beginning to exercise that power. The Emperor would become a puppet of one family, and would be deposed in AD 263, when he was deemed to be no longer necessary. The quarreling nobles would eventually be reduced to 3 powerful states. In the north was Wei, ruled by the Dong family. In the southwest was Shu, ruled by the Liu family. In the southeast, there was Wu, ruled by the Sun family. Korea was part of Wei, while Champa and Dai Viet were part of Shu. Japan was left to its own devices, only to be bothered with when they pirated anyone, which wasn't often.

##########

You know, guys, I wouldn't mind this being a collaborative project, like the Mithras thread, or the Anglo-Saxon thread. :) Don't worry if you don't know much of the history. By this point, most of the stuff is pure conjecture. BTW, Duncan, as our resident Chinese expert (so say I), does this post look good?

[MerryPrankster]

I can help out a bit more than I do now...I'll actually come up with more detailed situations instead of trivia and "useful questions."

When do you want...

1) The Huns to invade the West?

2) The events that lead to "Mohammed's" rise?

3) "Mohammed" himself?

4) Central Asian mayhem?

[DominusNovus]

I can help out a bit more than I do now...I'll actually come up with more detailed situations instead of trivia and "useful questions."

When do you want...

1) The Huns to invade the West?

2) The events that lead to "Mohammed's" rise?

3) "Mohammed" himself?

4) Central Asian mayhem?
1) 3th-4th century, on par with OTL. A decade or two earlier, probably.
2) Mild civilization collapse, around the 5th-6th century, due to the climactic changes.
3) Shortly afterward.
4 Which mayhem are we refering to? The Avars, Bulgars, Turks, Mongols?

[MerryPrankster]

By "Central Asian mayhem," I was referring to the business with the Kushans and Saka (right?). The Saka are a post-Persia vassal of the Chinese who were threatened by the Kushans, a steppe people, correct?

Of course, the Avars, Bulgars, Magyars, Mongols, and Turkic tribes will come along eventually. If the Huns hold a portion of the East, the new waves of nomads will probably end up elsewhere...perhaps they move into the Eastern Roman Empire and the kingdom of Anatolia. Some migrations could come as part of the "mild civilization collapse" you mentioned.

I think the next big thing will be the Huns...we're at 263 AD, right? I figure we can have them come along in the next 20-30 years. Here're some Hun names for our potential analogue to Attilla...

http://www.kabalarians.com/male/hun-m.htm

I personally favor Uldin or Dengizich myself, but we could always call him Ruoa (in the movie, Ruoa was Attilla's cousin who Attilla defeated and overthrew...I think that part was actually historically accurate).

However, in OTL, the Huns got their start as Roman federati. I think that the new "Viking Age" (Heruli) and probably some trouble between the Goths and the Roman successor states in Eastern Europe could lead to the Huns being employed as mercenaries. The Hun mercs report back that Europe is wealthy and divided and a visionary Hunnic leader unites the Hun tribes to invade and conquer Europe.

How much territory will the Huns hold to the East of Pannonia and Dacia (the states you've marked for Hunnic conquest)? Will the Goths be able to hold out.

[MerryPrankster]

Let's have the Huns come in 300 AD. I figure that with the exhausting wars, nobody in Europe will WANT to fight for awhile, plus we need to build up the populace of military-aged men for a few decades; one reason Rome couldn't fight the barbarians for long in OTL was that they'd lost so many men in the civil wars.

[MerryPrankster]

http://www.realm-of-shade.com/zarathustra/attila.html

The Huns developed infantry formations after they found they couldn't graze as many horses on the Hungarian Plain. If their entrance into Europe is more sudden, they might have more cavalry and fewer infantry. That'll be helpful for the coming war--how good were Romans against horse archer?

[MerryPrankster]

http://www.fernweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mf/huns.htm

Today's a vertiable cornucopia of Hunnic links...

The previous link says that the Bulgars were the surviving Huns who retreated east to rule over Slavs, which I think is incorrect, but it sums up a lot of the Huns' stuff around Attilla's time.

The kicker is that the Huns were in Europe in the 4th Century, which means that they being in Europe in 300 AD is plausible. We can speed things up due to the more expansionist nature of the Han if we want. Let's just compress the Huns' actual movements into Roman territory a little.

[DominusNovus]

We could have both the Huns and Heruli employed as mercenaries. I think 300 is just a little early for the Huns to make themselves felt. Maybe as mercenaries by that point, but I think we should wait a decade or two. Anyone else got any ideas for what we can do?

I'm gonna post the situation at the moment, as far as technology and culture is concerned, sometime soon. What eastern religions/philosophies do you think would catch on in the west and vise versa? I figure at least Taoism would catch on in the west, as its relatively individualistic in nature, compared to other eastern philosophies. Heck, it might even have caught on in OTL, as there are Roman shields that have the Yin Yang symbol on them.

[MerryPrankster]

"Maybe as mercenaries by that point, but I think we should wait a decade or two."

Okay, as mercenaries who report back about the wealth and division of the West. Then, in 320 or so, we've got our "Attilla" to unite the Huns and invade.

"What eastern religions/philosophies do you think would catch on in the west and vise versa?"

Zoroastrianism and some of the other "Eastern mystery cults" might do well in the disintegrating West, but you've already nixed them becoming very large. Perhaps Mithraists, Isis-worshippers, Bacchanals, can be "protected minorities" in the Christian Anatolian state.

If the Eastern Empire expands very far, they'll run into Hellenstic remnants in OTL Pakistan (there are a few worshippers of the Greek gods in Pakistan and Afghanistan today; I figure there were more pre-Islam) and that would have religious effects.

More contact with the East and China means their faiths filtering West too. You've brought up the Ying-Yang legionary shields...perhaps some contrarian Late Roman philosophers (the last pagan urbanites in Europe in OTL) adopt Taoism.

I figure when "Mohammed" comes around, his Arabized Christianity could spread east into the Silk Road states and western China, as Islam did OTL. Heck, instead of Crusades, we could have an Eastern Empire jihad. Credit to Rafi for coming up with the idea of a theocratic Eastern Empire mounting a Crusade against China in the "Light in the East" TL. Who knows? Some Chinese emperor might be a "Constantine" and adopt Christianity too. Japan as a refuge for Confucianism? Shintoists driven into Alaska?

[DominusNovus]

Zoroastrianism and some of the other "Eastern mystery cults" might do well in the disintegrating West, but you've already nixed them becoming very large. Perhaps Mithraists, Isis-worshippers, Bacchanals, can be "protected minorities" in the Christian Anatolian state.

More contact with the East and China means their faiths filtering West too. You've brought up the Ying-Yang legionary shields...perhaps some contrarian Late Roman philosophers (the last pagan urbanites in Europe in OTL) adopt Taoism.

I figure when "Mohammed" comes around, his Arabized Christianity could spread east into the Silk Road states and western China, as Islam did OTL. Heck, instead of Crusades, we could have an Eastern Empire jihad. Credit to Rafi for coming up with the idea of a theocratic Eastern Empire mounting a Crusade against China in the "Light in the East" TL. Who knows? Some Chinese emperor might be a "Constantine" and adopt Christianity too. Japan as a refuge for Confucianism? Shintoists driven into Alaska?

There'll still be pagans running around the Empires until "Mohammed's" time. So, we don't have to make any special efforts to protect them.

I also want the Western Church (when it gets around to forming) to be more philosophical in nature. I want it to be a kind of a compromise church (like I suggested in the "less institutionalized church" thread). I figure that, as the successor states (which will, for the most part, end up adopting Christianity) come together, so will the various Christian sects. I know that I want the Anatolians to be kinda dogmatic (they'll likely be tolerant of other religions early on, but, as they become more sure of themselves, they start to persecute them), with the Greeks and Romans to be really into the philosophy of the religion. The Gothonians and Germanians will probably have a more individualized version of the Church, as may the Britannians. As for the rest of the West, I don't know yet. We also have to think about what the Huns and Heruli decide to convert to.

I'd prefer that the actual doctrinal differences between these varying churches be minimal. So, I don't think there should be a major Gnostic or Arian Church, endorsed by one of states.

So, with the Greeks and Romans being Christian philosophers, they could very well be interested in Taoism themselves. After all, in its purest form, its more of a philosophy than a religion, and isn't mutually exclusive with Christianity. Same could be said for Confucianism.

As for a jihad against China or a Chinese Constantine, I'd rather not, simply because that would lead to the vast majority (and likely the virtual entirety) of the world's population being Christian. Granted, there'd be varying forms, but its no fun to have everyone agree, even on the basics. It removes alot of the possible conflicts. Sure, there could be Christian groups in China, but I don't think it'd gain a majority. The thing about eastern religions/philosophies is that they're not exclusive to each other. Your typical Chinese bureaucrat could be a Confucian during his career, a Taoist during his retirement, and have a Buddhist funeral. Western religions (at least the monotheistic ones) tend to say that there is one truth, and we're it.

Oh, here's an interesting idea: We have a Chinese Constantine, but he still doesn't get Christianity to catch on that much, and is overthrown by a Chinese Julian the Apostate. Hmmm...

[MerryPrankster]

"There'll still be pagans running around the Empires until "Mohammed's" time. So, we don't have to make any special efforts to protect them."

I was referring primarily to the Anatolian state...perhaps they come up with something analogous to the Islamic dhimmi thing for the non-Judeo-Christian faiths. Christianity seems to be going "statist" early on in Asia Minor, and that'll lead to at least a sampling of the difficulties of OTL's Catholicism. You've already hinted at persecutions.

"As for a jihad against China or a Chinese Constantine, I'd rather not, simply because that would lead to the vast majority (and likely the virtual entirety) of the world's population being Christian"

Okay. However, the jihad could always fail...

[MerryPrankster]

Or perhaps "Mohammed," in a tribute to OTL's Mohammed, comes up with the dhimmi system for non-Christians in the Eastern Empire.

[Diamond]

Out of all the recent posts, the thing I find the most intriguing is the Han setting up those forts in Japan (Wa) and settling it a little bit. I'd like to see you develop that more - it could be mucho interesting.

Maybe Japanese piracy really comes into full flower after the Han turn their backs; whoever succeeds the Han cracks down with a vengeance on Japan, colonizing it to the point where there really ISN'T a Japan per se anymore; its just another Chinese province, populated by Chinese with the odd Japanese family left here and there.

Building off Matt's suggestion, perhaps some Japanese hardcases manage to reach Alaska (maybe they're fleeing Chinese war-fleets?); from there its just a short hop down to the more temperate British Columbia and Pacific NW...

Imagine the Pacific NW being known as 'The Land of the Rising Sun'. And imagine the odd Shinto-native fusion of beliefs that could arise. Not to mention the possiblity of Hawaii becoming a sort of 'Second Japan', as refugees fleeing the Chinese settle it...

[DominusNovus]

Maybe Japanese piracy really comes into full flower after the Han turn their backs; whoever succeeds the Han cracks down with a vengeance on Japan, colonizing it to the point where there really ISN'T a Japan per se anymore; its just another Chinese province, populated by Chinese with the odd Japanese family left here and there.
Thats the plan, basicly. At the moment, there's a significant Chinese population (probably around 25-33%) on the islands. This will increase if the Japanese get beaten on again, with natives being deported and replaced with Han Chinese.

Building off Matt's suggestion, perhaps some Japanese hardcases manage to reach Alaska (maybe they're fleeing Chinese war-fleets?); from there its just a short hop down to the more temperate British Columbia and Pacific NW...

Imagine the Pacific NW being known as 'The Land of the Rising Sun'. And imagine the odd Shinto-native fusion of beliefs that could arise. Not to mention the possiblity of Hawaii becoming a sort of 'Second Japan', as refugees fleeing the Chinese settle it...
You know, thats probably a good idea. I wanted to have some Japanese in TTL, but I figured that it wouldn't work, if you have an expansionist China. After all, the Japanese were just pirates at the time and didn't have what we would consider the Japanese culture (which developed around the 7th century or so).

But, with a somewhat sinocized Japan, their culture (though not the same as in OTL, but still similar) could develop earlier. The home islands will get assimililated, but we could have some refugees...

The only problem is that I don't want smallpox or other diseases getting to the New World ahead of schedule (I want the main body of settlers to have disease on their side). However, with a relatively small population, its not entirely implausible. Especially if they're not particularly urban (most of the diseases were petty much urban diseases).

I don't know about Hawaii, would it be feasible to reach there? Granted, the Hawaiians did it...

At the very least, the Japanese will bring bronze working with them. Most likely, they'll bring iron working and horses with them. I figure if we send a couple thousand over (tops), we could avoid bringing over the major diseases (maybe one or two, hopefully minor ones). Especailly if we're not talking about continous contact.

Now, can we keep this iron-age Japanese society isolated enough in the Pacific Northwest that they don't spread their technology to the state societies to the south? I'd hate for the Mayans to actually put up much of a fight against the legions... :D

[Diamond]

Now, can we keep this iron-age Japanese society isolated enough in the Pacific Northwest that they don't spread their technology to the state societies to the south? I'd hate for the Mayans to actually put up much of a fight against the legions... :D

Ahhhh... OK, I think I see where you're going. No, I actually don't think you'd be able to keep them isolated, simply because they have effective ocean-going ships. With all that coastline south of them, of course they'll explore down it, and eventually run into the Olmecs or whoever.

Well, instead of fleeing east, why not have the Japanese go south instead? Why not have 'Australia' be known as Wa? Japanese/aborigine fusion? Do-able? Then factor in the fact that they'd be more trade-accessible as a link between China and Rome down the road. It'd alter the whole make-up of the South Pacific.

And speaking of the Pacific - what exactly will it be known as? The Serican Ocean?

[DominusNovus]

Ahhhh... OK, I think I see where you're going. No, I actually don't think you'd be able to keep them isolated, simply because they have effective ocean-going ships. With all that coastline south of them, of course they'll explore down it, and eventually run into the Olmecs or whoever.

Well, instead of fleeing east, why not have the Japanese go south instead? Why not have 'Australia' be known as Wa? Japanese/aborigine fusion? Do-able? Then factor in the fact that they'd be more trade-accessible as a link between China and Rome down the road. It'd alter the whole make-up of the South Pacific.

And speaking of the Pacific - what exactly will it be known as? The Serican Ocean?

Well, we could have them abandon seafaring... After all, the natives of the Canary islands did. Or, perhaps their ships are wrecked, and they don't have the capability to rebuild them (or choose not to).

We could have them go to Australia, but I was hoping to have most of Australia fall under either Roman or Persian rule, so we could call it Antichthon. Such a cool name. :)

Serican Ocean is a definate possibility. What did the Chinese call it?

[Faeelin]

Hmm. Given the increased trade in the north, the vikings are doubtless coming into more contact with the empire.

How about a roman influenced mohammed amongst the vikings?

[DominusNovus]

How about a roman influenced mohammed amongst the vikings?
In what capacity? As a religious or political leader? I'm assuming you mean to have some charismatic person unite the varying tribes into one force.

[Faeelin]

In what capacity? As a religious or political leader? I'm assuming you mean to have some charismatic person unite the varying tribes into one force.

Both. "There is no God but Odin, and Beowulf is his prophet!".

Well, some one else. But I think the idea of a roman med and barbarian north in the middle ages would be neat.

[DominusNovus]

Both. "There is no God but Odin, and Beowulf is his prophet!".

Well, some one else. But I think the idea of a roman med and barbarian north in the middle ages would be neat.
Hmmmm...

Well, I'm planning on having Roman influence expand into Scandinavia...

[DominusNovus]

Here's the technological situation at the time. I'll get to culture and religion in my next update. After that, I might add a little bit of trivia stuff (playing cards, days of the week, stuff like that). Any suggestions are welcome.

##########

The technology of the world was slightly ahead of OTL. Agricultural technology was progressing at a steady pace, as was medical technology, and various useful innovations came around on a regular basis.

The agricultural technology of the third century was ahead of OTL mainly due to the common use of the heavy plow. This allowed the soils of Europe to be far more productive than they otherwise would have been. Also of great use were the almost ubiquitous waterwheels. It would have been hard to find a farmer who did not have one or at least was on good terms with someone who did. Except in the Eastern Roman Empire, which relied on wind power instead of water power. The effect was the same, however.

In AD 232, a new monastic order was formed in Egypt, after a local famine. Called the Order of St. Georgios, they devoted themselves to learning the best ways to farm the land, and to teach these ways to the locals. They would be the first of the Conlegian Brotherhoods (Guild Brotherhoods, for their specialization in a particular trade or science). As Christians, they found themselves unwelcome in Egypt, though the northern states were more welcoming, especially Anatolia, which, being a Christian state, actively supported them. They primarily focused on various crop rotation methods, though they also dabbled in breeding various breeds of animals. Their first notable success was the Anglian breed of cattle, the first breed of dairy cattle, raised primarily to produce milk.

Medical technology was also doing well for itself. Various philosphers and doctors had improved on the science over the years, most notably Herophilus, Galen, and Philip. Herophilus and Galen revolutionized surgery and the understanding of anatomy, while Philip (a creation of my own), who lived in the late second century to early third century, codified and organized knowledge on various cures and remedies, helping to discredit many folk remedies that were useless at best, and fatal at worst. Though he was probably not a Christian, he would later be canonized (the Church decided that he was a closet Christian) and would become the namesake of the Order of St. Philip, founded in AD 279.

In the east, acupuncture was becoming more and more refined. The preeminent expert was Huangfu Sheng, who lived around AD 243 to AD 289. His treatise on acupuncture and Moxibustion would become the standard on the subject. His fame even spread to the west, where one of his students was employed in the service of the Eastern Emperor Marcus Claudius Anicetus.

Heliographs also came into use in Anatolia. These were relay systems with towers equipped with mirrors (for daytime signaling), and torches (for nighttime). Using these, a message could be sent from one end of the peninsula to the other in about one hour. They became very popular in the successor states, though the Eastern Empire did not make as much use of them, due to its size (though regional command posts did use them sporadically).

Other inventions also made their appearance at this time. Paper was invented in China in the first century, though it remained a Chinese secret until the third century. Other inventions made their way across Eurasia, such as the Romans' hypocausts (central heating systems), and the Chinese' silk methods (secretly brought to the Eastern Emperor Sextus Claudius Sophus in AD 253), as well as many others. Metallurgy progressed on a steady course, and the earliest evidence of gunpowder dates to this era (though its military application would not be appreciated for some time).

##########

Basicly, I've just bumped up some of the technology of OTL a few centuries, and fleshed out some stuff that was present (like the Heliographs, those things had some potential).

[MerryPrankster]

Good update, Dominus.

[DominusNovus]

Good update, Dominus.
Why thank you Matt. :)

[Sean Swaby]

Dominus, must say this is an excellent thread you have going here. Been following it awhile and I really enjoy it. Looking forward to the next updates.

[DominusNovus]

Dominus, must say this is an excellent thread you have going here. Been following it awhile and I really enjoy it. Looking forward to the next updates.
Much appreciated. I'll have the next update soon, within a day or so.

Probably. ;)

[Sean Swaby]

Hey Dominus, I know you've passed this section already, but I found a beautiful map of the Roman and Han Empires (and Kushan and Parthian ones as well) at this website:

http://www.dalton.org/groups/rome/./RMap2.html

and I found a site that has a lot of links to many Roman Empire maps:

http://www.dalton.org/groups/rome/RMAPS.html

And here is a tinkered map from the first site, I think it general comforms to your world:

[DominusNovus]

Nicely done. I never had the patience to alter the more detailed maps like that one (though I did know of it).

[DominusNovus]

Just figured I'd let you guys know whats going on here. I've been spending some time on friesian.com, researching various philosophies and whatnot. Really, the update I've been working on isn't really substantial, its just a summary of stuff we've already said. Thoughts and ideas are being exchanged between the East and West.

There's more detail than that, of course, but not by much. I'm thinking of skipping it and just continuing along with the TL. What do you guys think?

[MerryPrankster]

If you've put a lot of research into it, skipping it would make it all go to waste. I was curious about the philosophical/religious effects of greater contact between East and West.

Please post it.

[DominusNovus]

If you've put a lot of research into it, skipping it would make it all go to waste. I was curious about the philosophical/religious effects of greater contact between East and West.

Please post it.
heh, alright, but I'll need some help, cuz I'm not quite sure what would happen, other than a little syncretization, a few converts, maybe a new philosophy or two. Basicly, just minor stuff. Can anyone think of some major things that might happen?

This one's not directly related to the rest, but coastal Africa is starting to develop ahead of schedule. The Roman trading posts, for the most part, have been assimilated into the local populations (nothing as spectacular as DuQuense's Hesperia, of course), introducing various technologies and ideas to the populations, as well as a latin word or two. Anyone have an idea on what effect this might have?

[MerryPrankster]

"The Roman trading posts, for the most part, have been assimilated into the local populations (nothing as spectacular as DuQuense's Hesperia, of course), introducing various technologies and ideas to the populations, as well as a latin word or two. Anyone have an idea on what effect this might have?"

Hmm...if Christianity gets mixed into the local populace as well, perhaps our "Mohammed" can call West Africans as well as Western Romans "Peoples of the Book."

This is a larger piece of input here. I think when "Mohammed" appears, his sort of Christianity should have some OTL Islamic stuff in it. I already mentioned dhimmi status for non-Christians in the Eastern Empire; perhaps the Western and African churches can be considered, if not "proper" Christians (the RCC hierarchy, to my knowledge, calls Protestants "parachurches" and thus not in proper communion with Christ but still Christian), then at least "people of the Book" (the "book" in question being the Bible).

Also, I think a way to differentiate the national churches of the post-Roman West could be different canons. The Gothone Church might recognize some Scriptures that the Roman Republican Church does not and so on and so forth. That'll add some variety to the Western situation, plus lead to some interesting Synods.

Also, in the "Second Carthaginian Empire," we discussed a sort of "Imperial Donatist Church" in North Africa. The Donatists believed that clergy who gave in under persecution were automatically defrocked and that was a lot of Shi'a-style veneration of the martyrs. Perhaps the post-Roman church in North Africa could be semi-Donatist (though, w/out the Roman persecutions, that might be butterflied) and we could have some pretty interesting saints' days in Carthage.

"heh, alright, but I'll need some help, cuz I'm not quite sure what would happen, other than a little syncretization, a few converts, maybe a new philosophy or two. Basicly, just minor stuff. Can anyone think of some major things that might happen?"

In one scenario from the old board, we have St. Thomas convert the Rajah of some Indian kingdom to Christianity...centuries later, the end result is a church that bars eating of beef, includes reincarnation to some extent, and incorporates some other aspects of Hinduism. That scenario led to a largely-Christian India; however, you said you didn't want a "Christian planet" so we can perhaps make the "Malabar Church" an anomalous entity in western India, or, at most, the "official religion" of the Kushans.

However, if you want the Kushan Empire to fall (you said it was being threatened by Saka, or perhaps the Kushans were threatening the Saka), perhaps the king converts to the Malabar Church and is attacked by "old faith" loyalists, setting off a dynastic-religious civil war and weakening the empire enough so that the whoever's threatening who can take them down.

Now, we have Christianity filtering East; how about Zoroastrianism or some other Eastern religion filtering West? You commented earlier about Roman shields with the yin-yang symbol on them. Perhaps one of the post-Roman states has an elite division of Taoist soldiers (like the Holy Roman Emperors had a corps of Muslim bowmen).

Gnosticism will probably exist in this TL; how about a region in the Eastern Empire that's largely Manichaean? Or perhaps some tribes on the fringes of the Eastern Empire will convert to one or more Gnostic sects? Bogomil Avars, perhaps? Or perhaps another horse-nomad tribe will convert to Mithraism.

You said that the invasions of the Eastern Empire would lead to "Mohammed." Perhaps adding a religious angle to the barbarians would make the situation scarier and lay the grounds for "Mohammed's" theocracy. If the barbarians are all devotees of an evangelical non-Christian faith (as opposed to the faiths they generally left for Christianity once they settled down), it could lead to a "siege mentality" among the Eastern Christians and cause them to accept "Mohammed."

[Norman]

Great research into this TL. At first I wasn't certain about the direction, but I really like it now. Good Job!

[DominusNovus]

Great research into this TL. At first I wasn't certain about the direction, but I really like it now. Good Job!
Much appreciated, Norman. Just out of curiosity, what weren't you certain about?

[DominusNovus]

Hmm...if Christianity gets mixed into the local populace as well, perhaps our "Mohammed" can call West Africans as well as Western Romans "Peoples of the Book."

Well, these trading posts were around before Christianity began to be big, though there would have been a few that would have attracted some missionaries. I'm planning on eventually having the coastal regions of Africa Romanized (and therefore Christianized into the Orthodox Roman Church [thats a description, not a name]). The Romanized natives will bring the culture and religion inland with them, well ahead (probably by centuries) of the actual government.

Another thought about Africa. Whats gonna happen with the slave trade and America? One of the main reasons Africans were brought over was they were close, they could be bought for bundles of Indian cloth, and they didn't have the nasty habit of dying off easily that the Amerindians did. We can edit away the cloth somehow (whoever rules India at the time [probably the Eastern Empire] could forbid trade), but I'm sure Africans would still be brought over in large quantities (though, perhaps, not as much as in OTL).

However, I think there will be at least 2 major differences. First of all, these black slaves will be toiling away alongside white slaves (though, in many areas, there will likely be more blacks). Second, there will likely be many black slave owners.

This is a larger piece of input here. I think when "Mohammed" appears, his sort of Christianity should have some OTL Islamic stuff in it. I already mentioned dhimmi status for non-Christians in the Eastern Empire; perhaps the Western and African churches can be considered, if not "proper" Christians (the RCC hierarchy, to my knowledge, calls Protestants "parachurches" and thus not in proper communion with Christ but still Christian), then at least "people of the Book" (the "book" in question being the Bible).

The Eastern Christian Church will pretty much be a amalgam of what would be Islam, what would be Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and Zoroastrianism, with other influences. I can't say how they'll tolerate other Christians, but they will be far more certain that they have the Perfect Truth than the Western Church (which, as a Church built on compromise, will be more, well, compromising).

Also, I think a way to differentiate the national churches of the post-Roman West could be different canons. The Gothone Church might recognize some Scriptures that the Roman Republican Church does not and so on and so forth. That'll add some variety to the Western situation, plus lead to some interesting Synods.

Also, in the "Second Carthaginian Empire," we discussed a sort of "Imperial Donatist Church" in North Africa. The Donatists believed that clergy who gave in under persecution were automatically defrocked and that was a lot of Shi'a-style veneration of the martyrs. Perhaps the post-Roman church in North Africa could be semi-Donatist (though, w/out the Roman persecutions, that might be butterflied) and we could have some pretty interesting saints' days in Carthage.

Good idea with the Canons. In the end, the different Synods might end up accepting most of the different books. As for the Donatists, a similar group could still emerge in areas where Christians were persecuted heavily. Anatolia and Syria would suffer serious persecutions, and just declared their independence due to the persecutions. They could likely have a Donatist outlook. Plus, you've got Armenia and Mesopotamia, still under Imperial rule. Also, I'm gonna have Egypt, and, at most, one other successor state be intolerant of Christians (most will be friendly to Christians, especially with those Monastic Orders going around doing such useful research)

In one scenario from the old board, we have St. Thomas convert the Rajah of some Indian kingdom to Christianity...centuries later, the end result is a church that bars eating of beef, includes reincarnation to some extent, and incorporates some other aspects of Hinduism. That scenario led to a largely-Christian India; however, you said you didn't want a "Christian planet" so we can perhaps make the "Malabar Church" an anomalous entity in western India, or, at most, the "official religion" of the Kushans.

However, if you want the Kushan Empire to fall (you said it was being threatened by Saka, or perhaps the Kushans were threatening the Saka), perhaps the king converts to the Malabar Church and is attacked by "old faith" loyalists, setting off a dynastic-religious civil war and weakening the empire enough so that the whoever's threatening who can take them down.

I was figuring on keeping India largely dominated by native religions. I want the Eastern Empire to eventually expand there (taking out the Kushans in the process) and focus on Christianizing the subcontinent. This will tie down the missionaries for a long time. As for the "Christian planet", the world will eventually fall into 3 spheres of influence (thats the plan, at the moment), Roman, Persian (eastern roman), and Serican (Chinese). The Romans and Persians will be Christian, with the Sericans pretty much the same as in OTL. So, instead of a world thats roughly 1/3 Christian, we'll have one thats between 1/2 and 2/3 Christian (depending on the various population figures).

Now, we have Christianity filtering East; how about Zoroastrianism or some other Eastern religion filtering West? You commented earlier about Roman shields with the yin-yang symbol on them. Perhaps one of the post-Roman states has an elite division of Taoist soldiers (like the Holy Roman Emperors had a corps of Muslim bowmen).

Well, the other religions will definately filter to the west. However, they'll be overshadowed and pushed out/absorbed due to Western thinking of One Truth. Eastern Philsophies aren't as exclusive. However, this could have the effect of Christians who follow a Confucian or Taoist philosophy. Thats interesting about the Muslim bowmen though. Perhaps not Taoist, but maybe Buddhist (lol), Hindu, or something else? After all, so many of the eastern martial arts were developed by monks... We could definately go somewhere with this.

Gnosticism will probably exist in this TL; how about a region in the Eastern Empire that's largely Manichaean? Or perhaps some tribes on the fringes of the Eastern Empire will convert to one or more Gnostic sects? Bogomil Avars, perhaps? Or perhaps another horse-nomad tribe will convert to Mithraism.

Yeah, there should probably be a "heretical" region/state or two. Preferably not Mithraism. They've got an entire world, remember? :D I'm gonna keep the Armenian Church independent, perhaps the Khazars (or whoever settles down north of the Armenians) convert to Christianity and develop into a heretical sect. Hey, is the Ukraine a good area for nomad horsemen? We could have another tribe set up shop there...

You said that the invasions of the Eastern Empire would lead to "Mohammed." Perhaps adding a religious angle to the barbarians would make the situation scarier and lay the grounds for "Mohammed's" theocracy. If the barbarians are all devotees of an evangelical non-Christian faith (as opposed to the faiths they generally left for Christianity once they settled down), it could lead to a "siege mentality" among the Eastern Christians and cause them to accept "Mohammed."

Ohh, I like that. They're losing ground on all sides. They're persecuted by the Empire. They're persecuted by the barbarians. Blam! Our Prophet arrives on the scene. The Christians are a little unsure about him, he's got some different ideas than the mainstream. Then, he converts the Emperor. The Christians start listening closer. He's not so bad. The non Christians start listening. After all, he convinced the Emperor. Hey, maybe all these barbarians are God punishing them for not being Christian.

So, the majority convert. Our Prophet goes down to Arabia, and conquers (through Sword and Word) the natives for the Empire and the Church. With the Arabs behind them, the Persians (this would be a good point to change the name of the Empire) are saved from conquest, and go on to kick some ass.

This works well. :)


Now, some nitpicking about names.

What should we call the Western Church? I'm leaning towards the Universal Church (rather, its latin equivalent), or something akin. After all, Catholic is derived from the Greek word for Universal. Plus, these guys want to have the image of being the religion for all Christians. After all that compromising, in their opinion, the Church damn well better be Universal.

And what about the Eastern Church? Might we simply name it after the Prophet? I was going to name it the Arab Church at first, but then, I realized it was gonna get big in Persia. The Persian Church wouldn't work either, because it is largely geared towards Arabs. Perhaps we simply call it the Eastern Church. Anyone know any good online dictionaries for Arabic or Persian? We might find something good there...

Last, the Prophet. Right now, I'm thinking of calling him Alexander, to reflect the increased Greco-Roman influences on Arabia. Of course, it would be Iskander in Arabic. With said influences, it might morph to Askander or Aleskander, perhaps. Or, if we're feeling like being mysterious, we could just call him "The Prophet". That could be interesting.

[Sean Swaby]

Now, some nitpicking about names.

What should we call the Western Church? I'm leaning towards the Universal Church (rather, its latin equivalent), or something akin. After all, Catholic is derived from the Greek word for Universal. Plus, these guys want to have the image of being the religion for all Christians. After all that compromising, in their opinion, the Church damn well better be Universal.

And what about the Eastern Church? Might we simply name it after the Prophet? I was going to name it the Arab Church at first, but then, I realized it was gonna get big in Persia. The Persian Church wouldn't work either, because it is largely geared towards Arabs. Perhaps we simply call it the Eastern Church. Anyone know any good online dictionaries for Arabic or Persian? We might find something good there...

Last, the Prophet. Right now, I'm thinking of calling him Alexander, to reflect the increased Greco-Roman influences on Arabia. Of course, it would be Iskander in Arabic. With said influences, it might morph to Askander or Aleskander, perhaps. Or, if we're feeling like being mysterious, we could just call him "The Prophet". That could be interesting.

When you say "the latin equivalent"..what exactly do you mean? Classical Latin or the late Latin which was using such words as catholicus and ecclesia and ecclesiaticus which were borrowed from Greek (and mean as you pointed out "universal", "church" and "relating to the church")?
If your Western Church is using Classical Latin then might it not call itself "sacrarium/donarium/templum universalis/communis", but if not then might it be "Ecclesia Catholica"? Or might they not just call themselves "The Church"? What could be more universal than "the" Church? Or maybe the Eastern Church calls itself the Universal Church, while the Western one calls itself the True Church (in a flip of OTL)? Or how about the "One Church" for the Western one (in Latin of course).
I have found an English-Persian dictionary, but it isn't all that hot. It literally translates and not transliterates. So the alphabet is translated as well... anyway, maybe you can transliterate:
http://www.math.columbia.edu/~safari/masood/cgi-bin/

http://www.hostultra.com/~iranestan/dictionary/
(a second English-Persian one, with accompany transliteration table, though it's still not easy)

Here's two similar ones for Arabic:
http://dictionary.ajeeb.com/en.asp (put the "meaning language" as "English>>Arabic") and
http://www.ectaco.com/online/diction.php3?lang=3

.....but you still get the Arabic alphabet.

As for your Prophet, I rather like "Aleskander", it represents a nice mix.

[Diamond]

Or might they not just call themselves "The Church"? What could be more universal than "the" Church?

That's a great idea.

As for your Prophet, I rather like "Aleskander", it represents a nice mix.

Agreed.

[DominusNovus]

Perhaps we'll call it the Eccelesia Unverisalis? The only reason I don't want to use Catholic is just so to keep things different.

So, we've decided on Aleskander, unless anyone thinks of an interesting alternative.

[Norman]

Perhaps we'll call it the Eccelesia Unverisalis? The only reason I don't want to use Catholic is just so to keep things different.

So, we've decided on Aleskander, unless anyone thinks of an interesting alternative.

All Catholic means is something like Universal, so your idea is a good one.

[DominusNovus]

All Catholic means is something like Universal, so your idea is a good one.
Agreed. Besides, Latin will be more influential than Greek in TTL.

[MerryPrankster]

Perhaps the church of our "Mohammed" will be known as the "Alexandrian Church." Since Egypt will eventually become Christian, the name issue might be the seed of some sort of dispute, much like the situation with Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).

[DominusNovus]

Perhaps the church of our "Mohammed" will be known as the "Alexandrian Church." Since Egypt will eventually become Christian, the name issue might be the seed of some sort of dispute, much like the situation with Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).
Hmmm. I'd expect, if its named after the founder, it'll be called the Aleskandrian Church.

[DuQuense]

In my research into my Hesperia TL, Roman Maurintia Was a stronghold of Arianism, before Byzantine conquest in the early 500's.
The reason Axum conquered Yemen in 510 was to rescue the Christians from prosucution from the recently converted Jewish king, Just what is hapening with the followers of Jehova.
Remember Allah was the Name of the Arabs God before Mohammad, He just used it. to ease the convertion of the tribesman. Your Analogue whereever he pops up will probally do the same.

[DominusNovus]

In my research into my Hesperia TL, Roman Maurintia Was a stronghold of Arianism, before Byzantine conquest in the early 500's.
The reason Axum conquered Yemen in 510 was to rescue the Christians from prosucution from the recently converted Jewish king, Just what is hapening with the followers of Jehova.
Remember Allah was the Name of the Arabs God before Mohammad, He just used it. to ease the convertion of the tribesman. Your Analogue whereever he pops up will probally do the same.
Well, with a POD before the Christian Era, different sects will aris in different areas than in OTL.

So, how do you think that the various Western Churches will develop? Here's a quick draft of what they might be.

The Brittanic, Germanic, and Gothone Churches might be similar to Pelagian belief, with an emphasis on the individual. Especially the Gothone church, composed of a government evolved from your basic barbaric tribalism.

The Anatolian (including Syria) Church will be similar to the Donatist Church, with an emphasis on remaining steadfast in your beliefts.

The Greek Church will be very philosophical, perhaps even esoteric. They'll be more concerned with debating with other Christians and figuring out what the Truth is than going around converting people.

The Judean Church will probably be kinda low key, and try to fit in with the Jewish society.

Any other areas likely to be prone to one doctrine or another? We've got a lot of options. Monophysite, Athanasian, Arian, Nestorian, Appolonarian, etc. I don't want any major Gnostic Churches in the Successor States, as they'll be very hard to mesh with the others, though a Church that just has an emphasis on secret knowledge wouldn't be so bad.

I think that the different Churches shouldn't be absolutely distinct and set along political borders. I figure they'll regularly have councils but not be able to agree on much. Also, without any unified politcal power interested in having them agree, it'll be hard. They might be able to agree on a little bit, every now and then, slowly establishing an offical doctrine.

If there's a recognized Pope, its unlikely he'll be considered infallible.

[Pendragon]

DominusNovus, were you ever planning on reforming the Roman Empire. You know like centuries later or something. Because, and this is just my opinion, if you don't eventually the timeline can't be considered a 'Roman Timeline' as Rome and the Romans won't have much say in anything that happens.

Even if you make it smaller than it was orgionally, something should still exist taht can be recognizably called the Roman Empire (maybe even the New Roman Empire or Second Roman Empire).

[Tynnin]

Hi there, long time reader, first time poster. :D

First of all, fantastic! (Sigh, though I was hoping to see steam ships, but I suppose you would need a much larger industrial center than what you are allowing for)

Secondly, it looks like you’ve more or less circumvented those pesky “Dark Ages” - or is there some cataclysm in the wings (plague?).

Thirdly, I know that at its conception Christianity was a down to earth philosophy (be kind and generous to family, friends, and strangers - over simplifying, I know) and that after many rewrites the Faith was tempted by the Darkside. In short, do you see the “Church” becoming the bureaucratic, hierarchical (and hypocritical) political monster we know today or does your TL allow for a less intrusive (dare I say, oppressive) existence?

[DominusNovus]

Thanks, guys, I love feeback.

Pendragon,
Well, most of Europe has been Romanized. The people speak latin (vulgar latin, granted). The rulers call themselves Caesar, or Consul, or Rex. They wear togas (weather permitting). They built baths and forums. Its pretty Roman.

But, yeah, there will be a second Empire. Eventually, the various states will begin to ally with each other, forming a loose confederation, which will be the foundation of a second Empire.

Tynnin,
Yeah, the Dark ages have been circumvented. Well, there'll still be the climatological problems. But European civilization won't crash down like it did.

As for the Church, it will definately be much intrusive. It will serve a role in helping to find a common ground for the western states, but with a large, relatively secular gov't in the works, its power will be limited.

And, don't worry, steamships will come around. The technology of this world will eventually be 7 centuries ahead of OTL (just a nice benchmark, since the Roman dating system startes 7 centuries before ours). The Columbus of TTL will be sailing on a steamship.

Actually, that bears some clarification. I figure that the Romans will know how big the world is by the time that they start thinking about sailing west to get to the east. They'll think its all water, so they won't try it. Until they develop steamships. So, they send a huge expedition of steamships, and bump into America. The Indians, needless to say, will be royally screwed.

[Diamond]

Actually, that bears some clarification. I figure that the Romans will know how big the world is by the time that they start thinking about sailing west to get to the east. They'll think its all water, so they won't try it. Until they develop steamships. So, they send a huge expedition of steamships, and bump into America. The Indians, needless to say, will be royally screwed.

Man, I can't wait till you get to this world's version of the Age of Discovery... I forsee major clashes between the Roman West and the Chinese East.

What did you decide to do with the Japanese?

[DominusNovus]

Man, I can't wait till you get to this world's version of the Age of Discovery... I forsee major clashes between the Roman West and the Chinese East.

What did you decide to do with the Japanese?
probably an exodus to the Pacific Northwest, though avoiding any smallpox problems. As for iron tech, I figure if robertp can have the aztecs live in the urban areas of America and keep the tech secret, so can my Japanese in the boondocks of the continent.

[DominusNovus]

Anyone have any suggestions for minor powers, outside of the 3 (still forming) superpowers? I've got a short list at the moment:

1)Dong Wa/Japan
If I'm right, Dong is Chinese for east. I figure that'd be a good name for the Japanese that had fled to America. Anyway, as said, they'll likely form a small state, possibly around Vancouver or Seattle. I want to keep them small in number at first, so they don't affect their neighbors too much. This is how I see their early history (rough draft here):

Group(s) of refugees, who don't wish to be assimilated into Chinese society flee across the ocean, likely along the coast of Russia, to Alaska, then down to a region they find hospitable. They settle there, and begin to learn how to survive in the new land. As they adopt some of the ways of the natives, they begin to assimilate the natives into their society. Still, the Dong Wa people (what would we call the people of Dong Wa?) remain few in number, though eventually, a citystate emerges.

It expands, and soon there are 2 or 3 such settlments. We'll keep them divided, just to make the containment easier. They'll have iron technology, but they'll keep it secret from the natives. Dong Wa smiths will likely be considered somewhat akin to priests, in charge of a sacred and secret art. Japanese smiths were very good anyway (though not likely at this point in time). Also of value will be any horses brought over (a few might survive the trip). I figure the settlers will keep the horses under strict control, keeping either the mares or stallions for breeding purposes only. Likely the mares, as the stallions, which would be used in battle, could be castrated. That way, the geldings (castrated stallion) could be captured, but, even if the natives captured a mare as well, they'd be SOL.

They might have some of the urban diseases, such as smallpox. But, these diseases are unlikely to spread. First, the disease would have to have been carried all the way along the migration. Since this would be a long migration, its difficult, but possible. Then, it could spread to the local natives, but not far beyond them, as they'd be too busy dying to carry the disease any further. So, the early Dong Wa settlements will be surrounded by depopulated tribes, in no condition to cause them any trouble, or resist anything the Dong Wa cities feel like doing (raiding, collecting tribute, whatever).

Thus, the cities will develop in isolation for some time.

2)Axum/Ethiopia
I figure we can have them maintain their identity and independence and, with a little help, remain powerful. I think that the Persians will probably expand along the east African coast, perhaps down to South Africa. Axum could prove to be a useful buffer state for the Romans.

3)Khazaria
Not quite sure where the Khazars will end up, as all the barbarians (Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Khazars, Magyars, Turks, etc.) will do the "running into a wall" routine and have their settlment paterns all screwed up. Still, they'll probably settle somewhere near where they did in OTL.. I'll probably stick them just east of the Volga. Also, I'm gonna have them become Gnostics.


As for the Saka, Kushans, and the rest of India, they'll eventually fall under Persian dominion.

[MerryPrankster]

The Persians are going to get all of India AND East Africa? Dang. How are they going to manage such a huge empire?

[DominusNovus]

The Persians are going to get all of India AND East Africa? Dang. How are they going to manage such a huge empire?
Oh, and they'll probably get most of Australia. Basicly, their territory will include most lands that border the Indian Ocean. Not right away, of course, but eventually. And east Africa really just means the coast, until the modern era (13th century AD).

[Diamond]

Well, as for suggestions of secondary powers/nations, here's a couple of areas you might want to think about:

1) Southeast Asia: Do the Chinese control it all, or is there the possibility of a Bengali state, a Khmer state (eventually), and/or something developing in Malaysia and Borneo? In OTL, there was a lot of Muslim influence in the southeast asian islands (just look at the mess today in Indonesia), but things will develop entirely different in this TL.

2) With the Japanese enclaves around Vancouver, eventually information, technology, disease, etc, will spread out in a ripple effect. I'm not saying this is an immediate thing, or would be in even a century or two. BUT, you can't keep a lid on things forever, and when iron-working and equine husbandry start to spread, you'll have to look at who's the best native american candidates to take advantage of them.

[DominusNovus]

2) With the Japanese enclaves around Vancouver, eventually information, technology, disease, etc, will spread out in a ripple effect. I'm not saying this is an immediate thing, or would be in even a century or two. BUT, you can't keep a lid on things forever, and when iron-working and equine husbandry start to spread, you'll have to look at who's the best native american candidates to take advantage of them.
Well, eventually the Romans are gonna land on the other side of the continent. We'll just make sure that the timing works so that the Romans land around the same time (or earlier) that the technology would be spreading out.

[Pendragon]

While I know it is easy to make suggestions to others without doing the work, I do have one suggestion. Timelines. While you have written a great alternate history it is somewhat difficult to understand when something happens. To make it easier wouldn't it be possible to go over each section and add a timeline chart to the bottom.

Great job with the alternate history, it is both interesting to read and very well thought out and written.

[Tynnin]

Where are we in the TTL, about c.300AD?

Right away when I think of North America at that time I think of the Anasazi. I don’t recall them being any type of military powerhouse (especially since I think it wasn’t until around 300AD that they mastered the bow?) but they were a major economic and cultural influence throughout the SW. But depending on how long it takes for the Dong Wa culture to spread this may not matter. As far as local tribes, the Siksika (blackfoot), the Shoshoni, the Kwakiutl, the Dong Wa are in a good spot, the locals were more interested in trading than war for the most part.

[DominusNovus]

Where are we in the TTL, about c.300AD?
We're around AD 250.

Right away when I think of North America at that time I think of the Anasazi. I don’t recall them being any type of military powerhouse (especially since I think it wasn’t until around 300AD that they mastered the bow?) but they were a major economic and cultural influence throughout the SW. But depending on how long it takes for the Dong Wa culture to spread this may not matter. As far as local tribes, the Siksika (blackfoot), the Shoshoni, the Kwakiutl, the Dong Wa are in a good spot, the locals were more interested in trading than war for the most part.
Well, Dong Wa won't come around for about a century or so. Basicly, once China reunifies, the chain of events that leads to the exodus starts.

Does anyone have any good sites for information on America around this time? How long did it take for the bow to disperse across the continent? If the Asians come over around AD 350-450, will they arrive ahead of the bow?

[DominusNovus]

Hmmm. I think we should have an independent state somewhere in southern or eastern India. Maybe polynesia. Any candidates?

[Diamond]

Hmmm. I think we should have an independent state somewhere in southern or eastern India. Maybe polynesia. Any candidates?

I know very little about these, but here's some possibilities that could be looked into:

-In south-central India, the kingdom of Satavahanihara lasted from the mid-1st century BC to around the 3rd century AD.

-The first southeast Asian states - Funan and Champa - had developed by the 2nd century AD.

-By 400 AD there were various minor states and chiefdoms in southern Sumatra, southern Borneo, and Java which were heavily Indian-influenced. Any of them might be a possible candidate for 'second world' status.

-The Gupta Empire in northern India was founded around 350 AD, but that is most likely butterflied away in this TL, with a surviving Han state practically next door.

[DominusNovus]

I know very little about these, but here's some possibilities that could be looked into:

-In south-central India, the kingdom of Satavahanihara lasted from the mid-1st century BC to around the 3rd century AD.

-The first southeast Asian states - Funan and Champa - had developed by the 2nd century AD.

-By 400 AD there were various minor states and chiefdoms in southern Sumatra, southern Borneo, and Java which were heavily Indian-influenced. Any of them might be a possible candidate for 'second world' status.

-The Gupta Empire in northern India was founded around 350 AD, but that is most likely butterflied away in this TL, with a surviving Han state practically next door.
I'll look into the first and third, thanks. Champa, and likely Funan, are gone to China. As you said, the Gupta have been butterflied away, especially with a powerful Kushan Empire around.

BTW, I'm working on a chronology of whats happened so far. Very bare bones, but its easier to reference than the monster of the detailed timeline (which spans no less than 7 documents on my computer, divided for convenience's sake). Really, its just an excuse not to do the actual culture update. Sheesh! :D

[Diamond]

BTW, I'm working on a chronology of whats happened so far. Very bare bones, but its easier to reference than the monster of the detailed timeline (which spans no less than 7 documents on my computer, divided for convenience's sake). Really, its just an excuse not to do the actual culture update. Sheesh! :D

I feel your pain! I'm trying to hash out my Second Carthaginian Empire TL, but it is slooooooow going...

[DominusNovus]

I feel your pain! I'm trying to hash out my Second Carthaginian Empire TL, but it is slooooooow going...
Mmmm, a kindred soul. If I can be of any assistance, I'd be happy to help.

[DominusNovus]

I've been thinking about how we talked about having the Kushans convert to Christianity. This would probably be a good idea, just to make things easier when the Arab-Persians come rolling around. I'm developing a new appreciation for how difficult it would be to conquer and convert India.

So, what do you guys think a Kushan church would be like?

Another thing. China. We've had them in close contact with an equal (though currently weakened by half, though the Chinese are weakened by two thirds) Imperial power for some time now. What effect might this have on the Chinese? After all, they viewed themselves as the center of the universe, without equal. To meet an equal (or a people very near equal) would change their world view, would it not? Rome would unlikely face such a change from their view, as they were used to cultures equal or superior to their own (as well, of course, to the inverse).

[Faeelin]

Why will persia be so big?

Hmm. China might believe it's first among equals; they can learn things, but it's in china where ultimately it will all come together.

[DominusNovus]

Why will persia be so big?

Hmm. China might believe it's first among equals; they can learn things, but it's in china where ultimately it will all come together.
Sounds like a good take on things.

Persia's gonna be so big just because thats the plan. It was gonna be bigger originally. In the final draft, Persia could likely end up smaller. But its not that unrealistic. After all, the British took over India, and they were half a world away. The Persians are right next door. Granted, the British didn't try to assimilate the Indians.

On that note, I just remembered another minor state that will come around. Judea. I've yet to decide if they'll get conquered in the wave of the New Persian Empire. If they are, they'll eventually become independent. A primarily Jewish state, of course, with a sizable Christian minority. Much more peaceful than in OTL.

[Tynnin]

The thing about China is that it had basically only three categories when it came to the world - “us”, “useful barbarians”, “barbarians”. I don’t think having contact with an equal would change that perspective it's just too ingrained into their culture - look at the British sense of superiority as an example.

[Faeelin]

The thing about China is that it had basically only three categories when it came to the world - “us”, “useful barbarians”, “barbarians”. I don’t think having contact with an equal would change that perspective it's just too ingrained into their culture - look at the British sense of superiority as an example.


Not necessarily; it depends on the era. The Song dynasty was relatively open, for instance.

[DominusNovus]

The thing about China is that it had basically only three categories when it came to the world - “us”, “useful barbarians”, “barbarians”. I don’t think having contact with an equal would change that perspective it's just too ingrained into their culture - look at the British sense of superiority as an example.
And the British were nowhere near as arrogant. Sure, they thought there were the best, but they didn't think everyone else was as far below them as the Chinese were.

[Diamond]

Not necessarily; it depends on the era. The Song dynasty was relatively open, for instance.

That's the key; that whole 'Middle World' thing took a while to evolve. Methinks in 300 AD the Chinese were nowhere near as arrogant as they were in 1700 AD.

[DominusNovus]

That's the key; that whole 'Middle World' thing took a while to evolve. Methinks in 300 AD the Chinese were nowhere near as arrogant as they were in 1700 AD.
Well, that'll save me some trouble.

In a bit of foreshadowing, by 1700, the Chinese will have been quite humbled. And very, very bitter.

[Tynnin]

Mmmm, humble pie. :D

[DominusNovus]

Well, just so I can show some progress for you guys, here's part of the culture update, dealing mainly with the western culture.

#####
The varying cultures of Eurasia were intermingling, creating a diverse environment. Zoroastrian, Hindu, and Buddhist temples could be found in Europe. Christian churches and Jewish synagogues could be found in China. One could discuss Stoicism and Neoplatonism in Lo-yang, and Confucianism and Taoism in Alexandria.

In the successor states, the so-called "Latin Renaissance" (there doesn't seem to be any word in Latin to do justice to the phrase, so I'll leave it in English) began. As the states tired of war, they began to turn their attentions internally, while their populations recovered. It was a time of great monuments and public works, as the various rulers tried to legitimize and consolidate support for their rule.

A predominant theme was an increase in education, as the rulers tried to enforce proper Latin on the populace (except in Gothonia, which was forming its own language, though heavily influenced by the latin speaking population of Gothonia). They would be largely effective in this matter, though they would've been better off focusing on other subjects as well. Still, the efforts to homogenize the spoken language would help in matters such as trade and administration. Unfortunately, several languages and dialects died out during this period.

Also, by the 260s, persecution of Christians had almost completely died out in states, as the governments began to appreciate the skills of the Conlegian monks. Equally important was the shortage of manpower in Europe, and nobody really felt like killing off men simply due to religion. Even in Judea, Christians were officially tolerated during this time, though they were prohibited from proselytizing or marrying Jews. Only Egypt (and, of course, the Eastern Empire) still persecuted Christians.

The various sects of Christianity were beginning to drift somewhat. In the western regions, such as Hispania, Africa, and parts of Gaul, a Monophysite doctrine was dominant, which held Jesus was solely divine. In Germania, Britannia, and Gothonia, as well as northern Gaul, Carisianism was popular. Carisianism (similar to OTL's Pelagianism) emphasized the importance of the individual and downplayed the idea of original sin. In Anatolia, the dominant doctrine was simply known the Anatolianism (similar to OTL's Donatism). It was very harsh on anyone who did not stand by their beliefs. It also revered saints and martyrs to a much greater degree than the other doctrines. Dacia and Pannonia were predominately Clarian (similar to Arianism). Clarianism held that Jesus was not equal to God and was only the greatest created being. In Italia and Greece (though to a lesser degree in Greece), the dominate doctrine was Athanasianism (coincidentally, the same as OTL's Athanasianism), which held that Jesus was both human and divine. The Greeks, being good stereotypical Greeks, were content to debate the matter constantly, rather than try to actually proselytize. The Italians were more dogmatic about it, believing that the Pope, who was Athanasian, was the rightful head of the Church. The other sects acknowledged that the Pope was important, though they weren't convinced of his infallibility. The only major group of Christians who denied the role of the Pope were the Armenians, who had established a seperate, Monophysite Church.
#####

I'm also working on a world map, though you'll have to be patient (even moreso than with this update) with that one. I've got the easy part done, the Roman states. The hard part is going to be the Kushans, the Chinese states, and anyone else I feel deserves to be on the map (perhaps Axum and Saka). I'm working on it though.

Next, I'm gonna cover Eastern Roman culture, then Kushan/Indian, then Chinese.

[MerryPrankster]

Why is there a Pope? Christianity did not become "institutionalized" as in OTL b/c Rome fell before its leaders could become Christians (or at least assimilate it into the State). Therefore, a Rome-centered Christianity is unlikely.

I'd expect several "national Popes" (if Christianity becomes the "official religion" of any) and perhaps a less hierarchial Church, period (though there were regional bishops--in one of the Pauline Epistles, possibly Titus, Paul wrote about bishops' qualifications).

Otherwise, very good update. A lot of the cultural diffusion is interesting.

[DominusNovus]

Why is there a Pope? Christianity did not become "institutionalized" as in OTL b/c Rome fell before its leaders could become Christians (or at least assimilate it into the State). Therefore, a Rome-centered Christianity is unlikely.

I'd expect several "national Popes" (if Christianity becomes the "official religion" of any) and perhaps a less hierarchial Church, period (though there were regional bishops--in one of the Pauline Epistles, possibly Titus, Paul wrote about bishops' qualifications).

Otherwise, very good update. A lot of the cultural diffusion is interesting.
You're right. There will be a leader, and he will end up in Rome. But not yet. That update was something for me to do at 4am, cuz I couldn't sleep. Forgive me for slipping up. :cool:

I'll edit that, then get on the other updates. Cuz, I'm sick of describing the same time period over and over again. I wanna get moving on this. Charge and all that!

[DominusNovus]

Well, here's how that last paragraph should end:

In Italia and Greece (though to a lesser degree in Greece), the dominate doctrine was Athanasianism (coincidentally, the same as OTL's Athanasianism), which held that Jesus was both human and divine. The Greeks, being good stereotypical Greeks, were content to debate the matter constantly, rather than try to actually proselytize. The Italian Christians were concerned with having a unified Christian Church, and many of the early ecumenical councils were sponsored by Italians.

[DominusNovus]

Here's the mid east and India.

#####

In the Eastern Empire, a vast multitude of varying groups were intermingling, sometimes peacefully, sometimes not. There were Greeks, Romans, Persians, Turkic Steppe peoples, Arabs, Armenians, Indians, among others. The dominant languages were Latin, Greek, Persiani, and Aramaic, in no particular order. It was said that the administrators spoke Latin, the merchants spoke Greek, and everyone else spoke Persian or Aramaic. Most people were, of course, at least bilingual, and many were trilingual or better.

The largest religion was Zoroastrianism, though there was a decent Christian minority, primarily centered around Armenia. There were other minor sects, but, besides the standard state religion (which was little more than a formality), none were of any large importance.

The Kushan Empire was catching its breath at this time, assimilating its conquests, as well as assimilating into the populations. They ruled the north of India and the regions to the northwest, including parts of classical Bactria. The culture of the Empire was primarily Indian, with some steppe culture and a sprinkling of Greek culture. The dominant religion was Hinduism, though the Kushans themselves were fairly ambivalent about religions.

#####

Next, asia. After that, I'll put up a chronology.

[Diamond]

1) Do you anticipate any intermingling of Christianity and Zoroastrianism? That could be interesting...

2) Will there be a new language in the Eastern Empire eventually? A fusion of the existing mishmash?

3) Am I way off-base here, or are you planning some kind of Eastern Empire/Kushan alliance against China?

4) Nice work on the updates; hurry up with the world map and chronology! :D

[DominusNovus]

1) Do you anticipate any intermingling of Christianity and Zoroastrianism? That could be interesting...
Thats basicly what the Aleskandrian Church will be, with a few other influences.

2) Will there be a new language in the Eastern Empire eventually? A fusion of the existing mishmash?
Eventually. It'll likely just be called Persian or something. It'll primarily be OTL's pre-muslim Persian with extensive Greek and Arab influences, with minor Latin and Hindi influences.

3) Am I way off-base here, or are you planning some kind of Eastern Empire/Kushan alliance against China?
Nah. The Kushans are gonna do well for themselves, then eventually, somehow get the Eastern Empire pissed off at them, and down they go. Though I am thinking of having them convert to Christianity, though a Hinduized version.

4) Nice work on the updates; hurry up with the world map and chronology! :D
Patience, patience.

[DominusNovus]

China.

#####

In the far east, the three states risen from the ashes of the Han Empire (Wei, Shu, and Wu), were at almost constant war. Though vehemently opposed to each other, they were very similar, culturally. Thats not to say that China wasn't diverse. There were dozens of different ethnic groups in China Proper, and several more in the areas of recent conquest.

There had been efforts to homogenize the population by the Han Emperors, which were moderately successful, in part due to the political unity they provided, and due to the fact that most shared the same written language, even if the spoken languages were different. The Three Kingdoms would continue this practice, though each would do it slightly differently, resulting in minor differences between their populaces. Warfare was a constant fact of life and the drama of this era would later be immortalized in the screenplay The Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

#####

What'dya think? Gave a little hint about the pace technology is going to progress...

[DuQuense]

Most TLs seen to want to push Tech as fast or faster than OTL, I don't see why we can't have a TL where it goes slower, Give us more time to adapt, and stabilize. If we have larger Political units pre Industrialization it whould even make a kind of sense.

[DominusNovus]

Most TLs seen to want to push Tech as fast or faster than OTL, I don't see why we can't have a TL where it goes slower, Give us more time to adapt, and stabilize. If we have larger Political units pre Industrialization it whould even make a kind of sense.
Well, from the very beginning, I wanted to have 20th century AD technology by the 20th century AUC.

Besides, I've got my Renaissance TL that I've been tinkering with (nothing more until I get my current projects down) where the technology is much further behind...

[DominusNovus]

Here's a Chronology.

#####

AUC 707 (47 BC)
Caesar battles Ptolemy XII in Alexandria. [POD: During this battle, the Library of Alexandria does not burn down]

AUC 710 (44 BC)
Assassination of Julius Caesar.

*AUC 723-767 (31 BC-AD 14)
Principate of Caesar Augustus.

AUC 750 (4 BC)
[POD2: Varus dies]

AUC 759-767 (AD 6-14)
Tiberius and Germanicus campaign in Germania Magna.

*AUC 767-777 (AD 14-24)
Principate of Tiberius Claudius Nero.

AUC 767-777 (AD 14-24)
Germanicus campaigns in Germania Exterior.

*AUC 777-804 (AD 22-51)
Principate of Germanicus Julius Caesar.

AUC 778-790 (AD 23-37)
Germanicus campaigns in Dacia.

AUC 787 (AD 34)
Restoration of Kingdom of Judea.

AUC 792 (AD 39)
Peraea and Galilee added to Judea.

AUC 801 (AD 48)
Judea and Samaria added to Judea.

*AUC 804-807 (AD 51-54)
Principate of Drusus Julius Caesar.

AUC 806
Cheruscian agricultural revolution begins.

*AUC 807-818 (AD 54-65)
Principate of Claudius Nero Germanicus.

AUC 808-813 (AD 55-60)
Claudius campaigns in Vandalia.

AUC 811 (AD 58)
Construction begun on the Claudian Amphitheater.

*AUC 818-832 (AD 65-79)
Principate of Tiberius Claudius Vandalius.

AUC 820-828 (AD 67-75)
Vandalius campaigns in Britannia.

AUC 825 (AD 72)
Construction completed on the Claudian Amphitheater.

AUC 832 (AD 79)
Eruption of Mt. Vesuvius. Vandalius dies during the evacuation.

*AUC 832-849 (AD 79-96)
Principate of Tiberius Claudius Vandalius Flavianus Britannicus.

AUC 834-838 (AD 81-85)
Britannicus campaigns in Britannia and Caledonia.

AUC 843-848 (AD 90-95)
Hibernicus campaigns in Hibernia.

*AUC 849-851 (AD 96-98)
Principate of Manius Flavius Verus Hibernicus.

AUC 850 (AD 97)
Consulate of Justina.

*AUC 851-868 (AD 98-115)
Principate of Decimus Viridius Aurelius.

AUC 852 (AD 99)
Gany Ying reaches Rome.

*#AUC 868-887 (AD 115-134)
Principate of Decimus Viridius Aurelius Cosmianus.

AUC 871-885 (AD 118-132)
Parthian War.

*#AUC 887-891 (AD 134-138)
Principate of Decimus Viridius Aurelius Avitianus Persicus.

AUC 890 (AD 137)
Foundation of Gothonia.

*#AUC 891-895 (AD 138-142)
Principate of Quintus Domitius Nepos Parthicus.

*#AUC 895-909 (AD 142-156)
Principate of Quintus Trebatius Armenius.

AUC 905 (AD 152)
Elymais incorporated as a province.

*#AUC 909-912 (AD 156-159)
Principate of Quintus Trebatius Armenius Lysippianus.

AUC 909
Roman ships circumnavigate Africa.

AUC 912-914 (AD 159-161)
First Imperial Civil War. Nominal Principate of Marcus Claudius Malchus.

*#AUC 914-923 (AD 161-170)
Principate of Titus Secundius Silvanus.

AUC 923-929 (AD 170-176)
Second Imperial Civil War. Nominal Principate of Gaius Cornelius Homullus.

AUC 925 (172)
Parthian revolt. Parthia regains its independence.

*#AUC 929-940 (AD 176-187)
Principate of Secundus Amaticus Darius.

AUC 943 (AD 181)
Parthia reconquered.

AUC 937 (AD 184)
Construction begun on Canalis Aegyptum.

*#AUC 940-946 (AD 187-193)
Principate of Marcus Amaticus Darius.

AUC 940 (187)
Construction halted on Canalis Aegyptum.

*#AUC 946-956 (AD 193-203)
Principate of Titus Amaticus Darius.

AUC 946-950 (AD 193-197)
Kushan War.

AUC 946-955 (AD 193-202)
First Barbarian War.

AUC 947 (AD 194)
Construction restarted on Canalis Aegyptum.

AUC 957 (AD 204)
Roman Empire divided.

#AUC 957-981 (AD 204-228)
Principate of Appius Claudius Vincentius.

*AUC 957-978 (AD 204-225)
Principate of Quintus Flavius Severus.

AUC 978 (AD 225)
Gothonian Campaign.

*AUC 978-986 (AD 225-233)
Principate of Gaius Julius Varus

#AUC 981-1002 (AD 228-249)
Principate of Appius Claudius Diodrus.

AUC 984 (AD 231)
Beginning of intense persecution of Christians in the Eastern Empire.

AUC 986 (AD 233)
Restoration of the Republic.

AUC 986-1000 (AD 233-247)
Third Imperial Civil War. Disintegration of the Western Roman Empire.

#AUC 1002-1018 (AD 249-265)
Principate of Sextus Claudius Sophus.

AUC 1015 (AD 262)
Anatolia secedes from the Eastern Empire.

#AUC 1018-1036 (AD 265-283)
Principate of Marcus Claudius Anicetus.

#####

This just focuses on the Romans, I haven't included anything of the other areas.

[Diamond]

Some of the dates have # or * before them - what does that mean?

[DominusNovus]

Some of the dates have # or * before them - what does that mean?
Sorry, forgot to explain that. * indicates a principate over the western Empire. # indicates a principate over the eastern Empire. *# indicates a principate over both.

[DominusNovus]

Map. Finally.

[MerryPrankster]

Excellent map. Thanks.

[DominusNovus]

Excellent map. Thanks.
Much appreciated.

BTW, guys, there're, of course, other countries around, I just included those that we've spent some time talking about.

[DominusNovus]

So, the here's the plan for the next few centuries.

Heruli begin to do the viking thing over the next centuries.

Huns eventually invade, take down one or two states, get assimilated.

Post Hunnic barbarians (avars, slavs, and the like) invade the Eastern Empire for some reason. And they do it ahead of schedule. Other than the Roman states expanding for some reason, can you think of any reason for them to expand south, into the Eastern Empire?

Chinese expand into Japan, pushing the natives out, who settle in America.

Any other ideas?

[Faeelin]

How the heck do the natives get to america?

[DominusNovus]

How the heck do the natives get to america?
They can fly. Duh. :p

More plausibly, the Japanese just keep getting pushed north by the Chinese. Eventually, they take to the sea, and eventually find themselves in the New World. They decide this is a promised land of sorts, and settle, far away from the Chinese invaders.

BTW, earlier, we mentioned that the successor states wouldn't be at war for awhile, due to the exhaustion from the last war. How long before you guys think a major war could break out?

[MerryPrankster]

"Post Hunnic barbarians (avars, slavs, and the like) invade the Eastern Empire for some reason. And they do it ahead of schedule. Other than the Roman states expanding for some reason, can you think of any reason for them to expand south, into the Eastern Empire?"

The post-Hun barbarians migrate and run into the great solid rock of the Hunnic Empire in the eastern post-Roman states. Unable to break through the Huns, they get deflected SE through the Caucasus, over the Black Sea, and down through the Balkans (assuming a non-Hunnic corridor remains there). They hit the Christian state in Anatolia and the Eastern Empire from there.

[MerryPrankster]

"How long before you guys think a major war could break out?"

Perhaps this major war can start with the Huns. The two post-Roman states that fall to them will fall b/c of lack of preparedness, and the Huns' consolidation of their gains gives the other post-Roman states time to get ready. Then comes the Gotterdamarung in Central Europe between allied post-Roman states (here's how you can get the beginning of a reconvergence, by the way) and the Huns get stopped, barely.

Also, the Heruli could get united by some leader (charismatic Vikings often created huge, conquest-minded warbands) and come down in the north to seize Denmark and maybe Britain. If you want to double the fun, have the Heruli get really nasty at the same time our "Attilla" arrives.

[DominusNovus]

The post-Hun barbarians migrate and run into the great solid rock of the Hunnic Empire in the eastern post-Roman states. Unable to break through the Huns, they get deflected SE through the Caucasus, over the Black Sea, and down through the Balkans (assuming a non-Hunnic corridor remains there). They hit the Christian state in Anatolia and the Eastern Empire from there.
Well, by the time the other tribes start moving around, I think that the Huns will have been assimilated into the Roman populations and the Hunnic Empire will be no more. But the idea of them just running into a wall with the Roman states had occured to me.

Well, the early Roman Alliance would likely include Gothonia, Germania, and the Republic, perhaps Thracia (the states that would border the Hunnic Empire). Gothonia and Germania would be end up feeling most of the incursions, but, with support from their allies, they push back. Pannonia and Dacia might still be united, and would definately be able to push back. Heck, they might even expand. That would help out with Romanizing the rest of Europe...

Soon (as in, a few hundred years), there'll be a Roman state of Bulgaria. What'dya think wherever the slavs will end up will be called?

[DuQuense]

Yugo = South - Slavia = land of the Slav's :D

[DominusNovus]

Yugo = South - Slavia = land of the Slav's :D
Boreaslavia= north land of the slavs. :p

[MerryPrankster]

So, with the Huns or some sort of alliance of post-Roman states blocking the march into Western Europe, where will "Boreslavia" be? Ukraine? The Caucasus? I imagine it'd be within striking distance of the Eastern Empire, as the East is going to feel the wrath of the post-Hunnic barbarians sometime soon...

[DominusNovus]

So, with the Huns or some sort of alliance of post-Roman states blocking the march into Western Europe, where will "Boreslavia" be? Ukraine? The Caucasus? I imagine it'd be within striking distance of the Eastern Empire, as the East is going to feel the wrath of the post-Hunnic barbarians sometime soon...
Who knows? I just made up the name for kicks. I'm still figuring out where the various tribes end up.

The Avars might end up in the Ukraine. The Alans are going to be in the Caucasus (not exactly, but generally between the Black and Caspian seas), as in OTL, but will probably bet pushed south by other tribes. There'll probably be Slavs in the northern areas of Russia, and others going south. The Magyars might end up north of the Caucasus, with the Khazars east of them. Did I miss anyone?

[DominusNovus]

Drumroll please. I present you with the first actually update to the TL in a long time. Hurrah.

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Europe would be largely at peace for most of the rest of the third century. Memories of the Third Imperial Civil War turned many off from the idea of renewing any warfare. The more bloodthirsty were limited simply by the lack of available manpower. There would, however, be two notable exceptions to this. The first was the Thracian-Dacian War. The second would be the Greek Revolution.

Thracia invaded Dacia in the spring of AD 273. Dacia had been busy fighting against Venadian raiders, and Herius Asinius Caspar, Emperor of Thracia, decided to take advantage of this apparent weakness. The early phases of the war went well for Thracia, winning battles at Colonia Appia and Claudiople. However, Aulus Isauricus, king of Dacia, secured a treaty with Tuldila, king of the Huns, to attack the Venadians. The Huns swept into Venadian lands and actually completely conquered them by AD 280 (likely earlier, but exact dates are hard to come by now). The Dacians were able to focus their forces to the south and forced the war into a stalemate. Peace would be declared in AD 276, with the Dacians paying a moderate annual tribute to the Thracians.

Meanwhile, the Greek cities were chafing under the centralized rule of the Roman Republic. They rose in open revolt after a series of harsh taxes were passed in AD 274. The early phases of the revolt were stymied by the Republic's inability to land a sizable force in Greece. However, once they did in AD 276, the tide of the war quickly turned against the Greeks, until several northern Italian cities (most notablye, Aquilea) also rose in revolt. The Senate soon realized that while it theoretically could defeat both revolts, the cost of doing so would leave the Republic open to invasion by an outside power. It had to chose between letting the Italians or the Greeks go. The Italian cities were more important to the Republic's territorial integrity, and so the Greeks were granted their independence in AD 279. The revolting cities would be brought to heel later that year.

The Greeks organized their nation as a loose confederation of the cities, which were, in turn, republics or classical pure democracies. Meanwhile, the Republic began to allow for the other cities to have official representation in the Senate, though it was still dominated by Roman Senators.
#####

Whaddya think?

[MerryPrankster]

Dominus,

Good job. Plus, you've got the Huns coming now...

(cue the ominous music)

[DominusNovus]

Dominus,

Good job. Plus, you've got the Huns coming now...

(cue the ominous music)
I'm coming up with an interesting way for them to conquer the Dacians and Pannonians. Ripe with all sorts of intrigue.

[DominusNovus]

This is just a repost of everything that was lost.

#####

The next major war in Europe would start in AD 294, when Gaul invade Britannia over a dispute on piracy and a recent assassination of a Gaulic prince, which the Gauls blamed on the British. The Gallic invasion force made a successful landing early in 295, and managed to occupy the capital of Deva (Chester) by 298. However, the Britons soon forced them out of the city and began to push them out of the country. At the anticlimactic battle of Londinium in 300, neither side could claim clear victory. The Gauls had to abandon their position, but the British lost too many men to pursue their victory. A peace treaty was signed shortly afterward, when it appeared that the Roman Republic might actually come to the aid of their Britannic allies, whereby the Britannic Republic had to pay a large indemnity and was forced to assume responsibility for the assassination and, therefore, the war.

The treaty was incredibly unpopular with the people of Britain, who were unhappy with the policies of the Senate anyway. Open revolt began in 304, when Julius Petronius, the commander of the Britannic Fleet, declared himself King of Hibernia, robbing the Republic of the vast majority of its Navy. Petronius was soon followed by Joannes (John) Filibrennus, the commander of the Caledonian Legions, declaring himself King. He marched down to Deva and executed the Senate. This caused even further unrest among the people, leading to no less than 7 separate pocket kingdoms forming in the southern half of the island.

However, one Senator, Ezekius Quindracus, managed to escape Joannes' purge and fled to his home in Cambria (Wales). Joannes' troops were in hot pursuit, and shot Ezekius as he was riding into his estate. His 12 year old son, Arcturus, saw this and was enraged. Being the impetuous youth that he was, he drew his father's sword and attacked the assassins. They just laughed and knocked him unconscious. They threw him into the main house and burnt it to the ground, though he managed to escape undetected.

Arcturus eventually ended up in Hibernia, where he joined Petronius' fleet as a marine at 16 (AD 309). He proved to be a skilled soldier, and his captain decided he'd do better for himself in the Legions. So, Arcturus did, and rose through the ranks quickly, gaining much fame. He eventually became one of the chief commanders of King Julius' forces. When he was 21, a rival commander slew Petronius. When he asked for Arcturus' support, Arcturus knocked him out and brought him before the people, asking what they wanted him to do with the assassin. They demanded his head, and Arcturus gave it to them. They then demanded he take the crown, and he did, becoming the King of Hibernia.

In AD 315, less than a year after becoming king, Arcturus invaded Britain. He won the support of some of the southern states, attracted to his promise to restore the Senate. The rest he simply conquered, finishing off the last in 321. He then marched against Joannes. His homeland of Cambria fell in 324. At the battle of Ebuacum (York) in 325, Arcturus personally slew Joannes in combat, ending his reign and restoring unity to the Britannic Islands.

Arcturus Quindracus was crowned king of the Islands by the Senate in Deva on Easter of 326. He made many reforms that made him popular with the people. He also make Christianity the State Religion, though there was official tolerance (to varying degrees) of other religions, mainly Judaism. He did, of course, limit the role of the Senate to little more than an advisory role, but this came as a surprise to none, and few objected, as he was extremely popular with just about everyone.

Meanwhile, on the continent, other wars were being waged. The Gallic Kingdom invaded Hispania in AD 306 over a border dispute. The war initially went poorly for the Gauls, who were overconfident in their abilities. Once reality sank in, however, they did very well for themselves, winning a string of major victories through 308 and 310. Peace came in 311 when the Hispanians were forced to accept the loss of everything beyond the Iberus (Ebro) river.

To the east, the Thracian Empire had invaded Pannonia in AD 309, hoping to push their border to the Adriatic. At the battle of Naissus, the Thracians won a major victory, smashing through the Pannonian lines. It was at this point that the Dacians, afraid of a Thracian victory, concluded an alliance with Pannonia, entering the war on their side. This would drag out the war for 5 more years, until a combined Dacian-Pannonian force defeated the Thracians at Scopium in 314. The peace treaty that was signed stripped away some Thracian holdings along both borders, though none of any major importance (simply a symbolic gesture, to show that the Thracians had indeed been defeated).

The year AD 314 also saw a major increase in Heruli raids. The Heruli tribes of Scandinavia had been raiding coastal cities sporadically for a little over 50 years now. However, for the most part, they were almost completely disorganized and generally easily repulsed when the navies came around. However, by 314, the Heruli shipbuilding techniques had reached an apex and their ships were the equal of none. Also, the population had been increasing as the various tribes had been prospering from the trade with the Roman states.

The raiders' started in Germania and Gothonia. They were still not a very organized affair, but enough tribes would band together for a raid that they proved to be a formidable force. The raids soon spread to Gaul, Britannia, and Hispania. They raided down rivers, attacking inland river cities. Their ships were faster than anything the Romans had, enabling them to outmanuver their foes. Heruli raiding parties were generally not a match for a disciplined Legion, but they rarely stuck around to face the Legions themselves. The Heruli also regularly portaged between rivers, enabling them to raid even further. By the 320s, it was not unheard of to sight Heruli raiding parties in the Mediterranean or Euxine (Black) Seas.

The Heruli weren't interested solely in raiding. They also were interested in trade and settlement. The more astute of the Roman leaders took advantage of this, allowing Heruli settlements to be founded (this happened anyway, they just made it legitimate) on their territory in exchange for ending the raiding on their people. Of course, these settlements (and their Roman rulers) had no problems with raiding those in other Roman states. Some governments hired them as outright mercenaries and privateers. By the end of the century, most Heruli raids actually originated from within Roman territory. The raids would continue well into the 5th century, but the worst would be over, and, by the dawn of the 6th century, they would be but a memory.

#####

Any new thoughts?

[MerryPrankster]

Very good, Dominus. I wait with baited breath for the Huns and "Mohammed."

I also think there might be some political instability in Britain...the king has reduced the Senate to basically an advisory position and has pretty much gotten away with it due to his personal popularity. I think sometime down the road, though, there'll be a tyrannical king and someone will try to restore the Senate's power.

A Britannic Republic, anyone?

[DominusNovus]

I also think there might be some political instability in Britain...the king has reduced the Senate to basically an advisory position and has pretty much gotten away with it due to his personal popularity. I think sometime down the road, though, there'll be a tyrannical king and someone will try to restore the Senate's power.

A Britannic Republic, anyone?

Isn't this exactly the same situation of another Republic turned Monarchy? They even spoke the same language as these guys. Whatever happened to them, anyway? :D

Sorry, I felt like being an ass for a bit there. But put it in perspective. Arcturus didn't reduce the power of the Senate, so much as he brought it back from the dead, just weaker than it was before. Augustus could claim to be the savior of the Republic, even with the Senate hanging around the whole time of his rise, having its powers eroded. Arcturus actually did save the Senate, if not the Republic. But, rest assured, one day, Britain will be a republic again.

Until then, have a sneak peek at what coming up:

SEE!

The (Thracian) Empire Strikes Back!

SEE!

The end of the Gallic Hegemony!

SEE!

The Expansion of the Roman Republic!

SEE!

The Hunnic Invasion!

SEE!

Ummm, thats pretty much everything deserving of an exclamation point. Unless....

SEE!

Advances in Canal building technology! . . .
no, it just doesn't feel the same...
:D

[DominusNovus]

Just a little teaser...

#####

Hispania and Africa would go to war in AD 318 over control of the Strait of Hercules. Hispania was weakened after the war with Gaul and eventually had to concede to Africa, ending the war in 321 with the loss of the strait.

Gaul had come to dominate both Britannia and Hispania and was the most powerful nation in Europe at this time. However, Queen Justinia had given birth to twins in 319. She had died soon after childbirth, and there were no witnesses to the birth, so nobody was certain which was the elder child. As with most societies, the eldest son was the designated heir, so, this caused problems. The situation got much worse when King Andreas died in 329. Soon after, the powerful men of Gaul began to side against each other. The powerful land owners and regional governors tended to support Prince Marcus, while the merchants and the navy supported Prince Antonius, with the legions being fairly evenly split. The first skirmishes occurred within a few weeks of the king's death, though it would be a few months before the first battle took place.

The Gemini War started in April of AD 330, with the battle of Lutetia (Paris), the capital at the time (Lutetia had been preceeded by Genabum to the south-southwest, which had been preceded by Augustodunum, further to the south-southwest). Both princes were being held in the King's Palace by the Marcine faction and the forces of the Antonine faction marched on the city to rescue Antonius and, if possible, seize Marcus and as much of the opposing leadership as possible. An advance force was sent out to extricate Antonius before the battle started, to be safe. The plan went well, though it tipped off the Marcine leaders to the coming battle, and most of them fled with Prince Marcus in tow. The main Antonine force, which had greatly outnumbered the Marcines in the city anyway, would meet only a token force and would take the city quickly. Though this first battle was quick and fairly bloodless, the war would be neither.

#####

Next update:

SEE!

Hitler on Ice!

erm, oops.