Baghdag Battery and Antikythera Mechanism all over?

[Dynamitard]

Here an interesting thought with a basis in reality. What if the Baghdad Battery (the primitive but working mildly-powerful electric battery discovered in Mesopotamia) and the Antikythera Mechanism (the Clockwork Greek model of the universe that has been called the first analog computer) were the norm rather than rarities?
Would we have an Electric Parthia and a Clockwork Greece? A Laser-weilding Egypt? Incans in hot-air balloons? Easter Island being a world power?

[gaijin]

No

Next please :D

[Aldroud]

I read a book a few years back that had the first intersteller ship launching in the 15th century under the command of a Cardinal-Captain (apparently the Church was still a big deal). The POD for the world was the Hero steam engine in Egypt was brought back to Ireland by a traveling monk. "Heros", steam powered armored cars became the chief method of war, supplanting the mounted knight. Irish conquor the British Isles and forge an empire in North America with the Amerinds. Yadda yadda yadda.

The steam engine kicked off the industrial revolution early. Was a rather fun book, can't recall the name. They ended up building a new kind of drive on the new planet and returning to Earth faster than light, but end up shifting timelines and landing in our present day Cape Canaverial.

Anyone read this/ know the name?

[Keenir]

Here an interesting thought with a basis in reality. What if the Baghdad Battery (the primitive but working mildly-powerful electric battery discovered in Mesopotamia) and the Antikythera Mechanism (the Clockwork Greek model of the universe that has been called the first analog computer) were the norm rather than rarities?
Would we have an Electric Parthia and a Clockwork Greece? A Laser-weilding Egypt? Incans in hot-air balloons? Easter Island being a world power?

no, none of that would occur.

you'd first have to overcome social, intellectual, and other forms of resistance.....citizens fought in wars back then, sure; but slaves were what did hte hard labor. citizens were philosophers, not laborers.

[sunsurf]

What might have happened was, the secret to creating and using these was held by one or two individuals, who died before passing on the secret to anybody else. Since nobody knew how to use them, and they might have been associated with sorcery and other evils, they were hidden/buried, and eventually forgotten. The POD would be the secret being passed on through generations to the present day.
The priesthood would start using these for their own purposes, to control and manipulate their local populations. They wouldn't let the secret get out. Nobody would know about the battery itself, or the computer itself. All people would know is, these priests have mysterious powers and abilities. It would be a good idea for a novel.
That novel Aldroud describes is "The Silent Stars Go By", by James White. It's really good.
:)

[Keenir]

What might have happened was, the secret to creating and using these was held by one or two individuals, who died before passing on the secret to anybody else.


more like, they were made by one or two eccentrics who were independantly wealthy and lived on their own.

The priesthood would start using these for their own purposes, to control and manipulate their local populations.

"braaaaaains...."

sorry, couldn't resist.

They wouldn't let the secret get out. Nobody would know about the battery itself, or the computer itself. All people would know is, these priests have mysterious powers and abilities.

but the problem is that it assumes people stop being,.....well, people.

people talk to each other.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Isn't there a theory that the Baghdad Battery was used to shock people to fake a religious experience?

Wasn't the Antikythera Mechanism basically an advanced solar calendar?

Now I wanna find that book. An Irish Empire sounds interesting.

[Keenir]

Isn't there a theory that the Baghdad Battery was used to shock people to fake a religious experience?


a guess made on Mythbusters. *nods*

[EvolvedSaurian]

Now I remember.

That was a very funny ep!:D

[Aldroud]

That novel Aldroud describes is "The Silent Stars Go By", by James White. It's really good.
:)

Woo Hoo! Amazon dot com, here I come!

Thanks!

[sunsurf]

You're welcome.

Keenir didn't think much of my scenario...but I didn't say it was plausible.
I don't know why it's less likely that the lone wealthy eccentric was a priest.
People will talk... but a lot of groups did manage to keep their secrets from anybody who could write.

[basileus]

...when I read "Baghdad battery" I at once thought the Marines had kicked the crap out of some Iraqi...

[Keenir]

Keenir didn't think much of my scenario...but I didn't say it was plausible.

you misunderstand....I like the scenario....I just think its on the low end of the plausibility scale.
(right up there with the Ottomans invading the Confederate States of America)


I don't know why it's less likely that the lone wealthy eccentric was a priest.

because, if he's a priest, that means living in amongst the worshippers....which nixes the idea that he has any sort of secrecy or private place.


People will talk...

...to bedmates, colleagues, childhood and army buddies, etc.

but a lot of groups did manage to keep their secrets from anybody who could write.

...and ended up forgotten to history.


please bear in mind, if you make a timeline for this, I'll gladly read it.

[Flocculencio]

because, if he's a priest, that means living in amongst the worshippers....which nixes the idea that he has any sort of secrecy or private place.

It's not like he's a modern vicar or a rabbi though- a lot of the ancient religions had a priestly class who were a group to themselves shrouded in mystery and all that.

[Keenir]

It's not like he's a modern vicar or a rabbi though- a lot of the ancient religions had a priestly class who were a group to themselves shrouded in mystery and all that.

true....and the priestly class were even less inclined to mess their hands on something like physical labor.

[Dynamitard]

Well, I made the post, and think its a good idea. I just like the idea of Parthians electrocuting their enemies. I can see pros and cons in this debate, but I do think the existence of slavery made it impossible, or unneccessary, for technology to advance.
WI there was a plague that killed all the slaves? or a successful slave rebellion? Then maybe.

[Faeelin]

no, none of that would occur.

you'd first have to overcome social, intellectual, and other forms of resistance.....citizens fought in wars back then, sure; but slaves were what did hte hard labor. citizens were philosophers, not laborers.

AAAAAH.

You mean, the citizens writing works on anatomy, geometry, agriculture, etc.?

[MrP]

but slaves were what did hte hard labor. citizens were philosophers, not laborers.

Debateable. There's argument over this because it isn't economically viable to retain on a year-long basis enough slaves to perform the difficult work of crop collection which occurs only at a certain time. I think arguments centre on whether a) farmers, their families and their few personal slaves helped each other deal with crops or b) they employed casual free labourers when they needed them.

Doesn't the New Testament say that the poor are always with us? That isn't just slaves.

[Keenir]

You mean, the citizens writing works on anatomy, geometry, agriculture, etc.?

oh yes, I don't deny that the Hellenes made some nice intellectual advances. but did they or did they not regard manual labor as a thing of slaves and barbarians?
(was it Sparta or Macedonia that conquered the Persian Empire and beyond? was it Rome or Athens that built wonders throughout a continent-wide dominion?)


WI there was a plague that killed all the slaves? or a successful slave rebellion? Then maybe.

*nods*

okay, lets say there's a plague that somehow only kills the slaves of Athens and the surrounding ten kilometers.

now, loyal Athenian, which of these are you going to do?:

option one -

all by yourself, dig up the metals and coal and other materials that you need.
all by yourself, build all the equipment you need to work with those materials.
all by yourself, start an industrial revolution.
option two -

with your neighbors, take slaves from your neighboring city-state.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Macedon and Rome certainly adopted a great deal of Greek culture. This didn't really have anything to do with their conqests though.

[Keenir]

Macedon and Rome certainly adopted a great deal of Greek culture. This didn't really have anything to do with their conqests though.

*nods* a Roman had to be able to read and dig a ditch....an Athenian had to do one or the other.

[Dynamitard]

oh yes, I don't deny that the Hellenes made some nice intellectual advances. but did they or did they not regard manual labor as a thing of slaves and barbarians?
(was it Sparta or Macedonia that conquered the Persian Empire and beyond? was it Rome or Athens that built wonders throughout a continent-wide dominion?)




*nods*

okay, lets say there's a plague that somehow only kills the slaves of Athens and the surrounding ten kilometers.

now, loyal Athenian, which of these are you going to do?:

option one -

all by yourself, dig up the metals and coal and other materials that you need.
all by yourself, build all the equipment you need to work with those materials.
all by yourself, start an industrial revolution.option two -

with your neighbors, take slaves from your neighboring city-state.

I see what you mean, but it wouldn't be all by yourself. Things like Hero's Steam Enging and the Mechanism show that the tech was there, it just needed a reason to be used. A plague that killed only slaves would be a little improbable, but a plague that kills everyone wouldn't. Slaves, being all forced together would be more susecptable and die. A slave rebellion might have the same effect.

[Faeelin]

[QUOTE=Keenir]oh yes, I don't deny that the Hellenes made some nice intellectual advances. but did they or did they not regard manual labor as a thing of slaves and barbarians?
(was it Sparta or Macedonia that conquered the Persian Empire and beyond? was it Rome or Athens that built wonders throughout a continent-wide dominion?)[/quote[

Err. I'm not sure what the last part has to do anything.

But let's remember it varied; and what a few elites in a palace in Macedon or or Alexandria thought varied from what the people on the ground thought.

Scratch that; quite a few hellenistic monarchs did get involved in manual labor, encouraging crop diffusion, new irrigation techniques, etc.

So, it's more complex than you're making it out to be.

And how is this any different from the views held by 18th century Britain's elite?

[Keenir]

Scratch that; quite a few hellenistic monarchs did get involved in manual labor,


*tries to imagine a Greek king wallowing in the mud, hoping his seedlings will thrive this summer*

And how is this any different from the views held by 18th century Britain's elite?

the views of Britain's elite were not held by the entirety of the British Empire. the views of the Hellenic elite were the views of the Hellene populace.

[Faeelin]

*tries to imagine a Greek king wallowing in the mud, hoping his seedlings will thrive this summer*

Makes sense, if you think about it. an empire's revenues come from agriculture; it's in his best interest to encourage it.

the views of Britain's elite were not held by the entirety of the British Empire. the views of the Hellenic elite were the views of the Hellene populace.

And your reason for this assumption is?

[Keenir]

And your reason for this assumption is?

because of the philisophical worldviews of the people who did have any industry built.

the Incans didn't, despite being able to move large objects, and despite having toy planes\birds.
the Greeks didn't, despite being able to move large objects, and despite having a single device that was organized around gears.
the people of Nan Madol didn't, despite being able to move large objects, and despite having a really cool political system.

[NapoleonXIV]

because of the philisophical worldviews of the people who did have any industry built.

the Incans didn't, despite being able to move large objects, and despite having toy planes\birds.
the Greeks didn't, despite being able to move large objects, and despite having a single device that was organized around gears.
the people of Nan Madol didn't, despite being able to move large objects, and despite having a really cool political system.

So, in order to build industry we need to have a modern philosophical worldview, and the reason you say that is because the only people who have ever built industry had a modern philosophical worldview.

That's a good basis for hypothesis, yes, but by itself it's certainly no proof. One factor that always occurs to me is that the real flowering of none of the cultures you mentioned above lasted much over about 50 years, maybe, for a real scientific/industrial revolution to get going, you need more time.

[Jason]

I think part of the issue is why things are developed. Ignoring the slave issue, did the Greeks/Romans/Egyptians etc need a steam engine as anything other than a toy? If I recall correctly, the reason the steam engine was developed was primarily as a pump for mining-to remove water so deeper mines could be dug- and only later does it become used in transport (early pumps weren't that efficient but were the only tools for the job of pumping water out of deep mines). If you were to take an early 18th Century pump, give it to an 18th Century engineer and say 'we can use this to power ships, carts' etc, he'd think you were mad as the pump would just not have the capability to do it and wouldn't be able to develop the ideas that would make it possible. WE KNOW it can be done because it was, but it took a lot of small developments to get the engines to a stage where it was even possible to think of them doing the jobs they ended up doing.

My personal feeling is that until they need deep mines then the idea of developing steam engines to do the pump work doesn't come about. Without this first stage, then there isn't the opportunity for anyone to consider using it to power ships, etc

I now await the shoting down of this idea;)

[Keenir]

So, in order to build industry we need to have a modern philosophical worldview, and the reason you say that is because the only people who have ever built industry had a modern philosophical worldview.

I admit that, with a test case of 1, its hard not to fall into the trap of circular logic.


That's a good basis for hypothesis, yes, but by itself it's certainly no proof. One factor that always occurs to me is that the real flowering of none of the cultures you mentioned above lasted much over about 50 years, maybe, for a real scientific/industrial revolution to get going, you need more time.

which sounds like a good reason that the Baghdad Battery and the Antikytheria Mechanism couldn't jump-start any industry.

[Jason]

...is there is still a lot of people who object to it being a battery in any way we'd understand it. There is a theory that all it was used for was to give objects a golden covering (golden artifacts on the cheap).

Just out of interest, any one any idea how many Baghdad batteries it would take to power a 40 watt light bulb (for example)?

[Earling]

I don't know whether it would revolutionise things.. but how would an earlier introduction of Windmills effect the classical world? If someone were to think about clockwork and consider a sail on a ship I wouldn't have thought such a device would have been a huge leap.

That might give others the idea of using it to power other machines and eventually you have your revolution.