WI Suez connection always there

[NapoleonXIV]

I've just been reading that one of the ancient egyptian pharoahs dug a canal which connected the Nile and the Red Sea. It later filled back in. I've also been told that the Suez canal was fairly easy to build, being just a matter of removing several miles of sand at sea level, and could probably have been done in Ancient times as well.

Let's say it was, and was never let to fill in, so that there was a connection between the Med and the Red seas, capable of taking most ships of the day, from farthest antiquity until now.

How would this have changed history?

[Wendell]

I've just been reading that one of the ancient egyptian pharoahs dug a canal which connected the Nile and the Red Sea. It later filled back in. I've also been told that the Suez canal was fairly easy to build, being just a matter of removing several miles of sand at sea level, and could probably have been done in Ancient times as well.

Let's say it was, and was never let to fill in, so that there was a connection between the Med and the Red seas, capable of taking most ships of the day, from farthest antiquity until now.

How would this have changed history?
Well, there would be more wars fought to control the region.

[rewster]

Well, the impact of that would be very... big.
There would be sustained contact between Europe and India, China, and East Africa. This makes Columbus/ the Age of Exploration irrelevent, except that they'd be butterflied away anyway. The flow of knowledge and ideas, in addition to trade, increases between Europe and India/China.
There would probably be wars to control the region, though war would be terrible for trade... so the parties on both sides that stand to benefit the most by having the canal will probably fight hardest to keep it open, and may create a permanent "canal zone" that is defended by the armies and navies of multiple nations.
The Americas would very likely remain undiscovered until the age of flight (if such an age occurs in this ATL). However Australia might be discovered/settled much sooner with all the increased sea traffic through Indonesia.

[stevep]

Well, the impact of that would be very... big.
There would be sustained contact between Europe and India, China, and East Africa. This makes Columbus/ the Age of Exploration irrelevent, except that they'd be butterflied away anyway. The flow of knowledge and ideas, in addition to trade, increases between Europe and India/China.
There would probably be wars to control the region, though war would be terrible for trade... so the parties on both sides that stand to benefit the most by having the canal will probably fight hardest to keep it open, and may create a permanent "canal zone" that is defended by the armies and navies of multiple nations.
The Americas would very likely remain undiscovered until the age of flight (if such an age occurs in this ATL). However Australia might be discovered/settled much sooner with all the increased sea traffic through Indonesia.

I don't know if the existence of an early canal will delay the discovery of the Americas. Apart from other reasons for their discovery you will still have a desire to find alternative routes to the east. Presuming you still have one power dominating the main trade routes - Egypt, Syria and Constantinople, or even a number on coalition, Europe will find itself paying through the nose for eastern spices. With the even greater importance of Suez and Egypt as a vital trade connection as well as its agricultural wealth you may see such a power established earlier.

Steve

[Chengar Qordath]

I don't know if the existence of an early canal will delay the discovery of the Americas. Apart from other reasons for their discovery you will still have a desire to find alternative routes to the east. Presuming you still have one power dominating the main trade routes - Egypt, Syria and Constantinople, or even a number on coalition, Europe will find itself paying through the nose for eastern spices. With the even greater importance of Suez and Egypt as a vital trade connection as well as its agricultural wealth you may see such a power established earlier.

Not to mention that even without Columbus there is the possibility of the Americas being discovered by the progressive settlement of Iceland and Greenland, or a European ship along the west African coast getting blown off course and hitting Brazil. Of course, the butterflies will make what ends up happening with the Americas completely different from OTL.

I agree that Egypt would be even wealthier and more prestigious than it was historically if there was a Suez canal; presumably Egypt will either be ruled by a large Empire, or will be a large empire in it's own right.

[MerryPrankster]

If the canal is large enough, the Ming treasure fleets can sail into the Mediterranean.

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

The POD is in the times of the Pharaohs. Forget Columbus, Constantinople, the Vikings, and the Ming treasure fleet.

[Martinus Paduei]

Not really. The Pharoanic (Nile-Red Sea) Canal was operational intermittently all the way up to the early days of the Caliphate. If the Caliphate had continued to expand and maintain it, there is your POD right there.

[MerryPrankster]

The POD is in the times of the Pharaohs. Forget Columbus, Constantinople, the Vikings, and the Ming treasure fleet.

Not necessarily. I would imagine it would affect Mediterranean history quite a bit, although you cannot assume it would completely eradicate many of those trends (the Vikings were syptoms of Scandinavian overpopulation and would likely happen at some point, and Constantinople is a very good site for a city).

And China is very far away.

[EvolvedSaurian]

The canal would be a good spot for a city. A trade route and the Nile that close by? Even better than Constantinople, I think.

[Chengar Qordath]

The canal would be a good spot for a city. A trade route and the Nile that close by? Even better than Constantinople, I think.

Agreed, but that does not mean that Constantinople would not still be established. However, I do agree that a major PoD that far back would have big effects.

[MerryPrankster]

The canal would be a good spot for a city. A trade route and the Nile that close by? Even better than Constantinople, I think.

Constantinople is far more defensible than anywhere in the Nile Delta.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Constantinople is far more defensible than anywhere in the Nile Delta.

Defensible from whom?

[Douglas]

Defensible from whom?

Anyone.










Don't worry, I won't remind you about The Game.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Seriously, who would attack Egypt when there's a canal right there. Nile=population and canal=money. I don't play the game anyway, so there.

[Chengar Qordath]

Seriously, who would attack Egypt when there's a canal right there.

Everyone would.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Everyone would.

It'd be quite a nut to crack. Would the Hittites or Sumerians be able to take it?

[rewster]

So, such a canal existed on and off up into the 700s in OTL. It seems many wars were fought near it, but not necessarily over it (at least not directly). If the canal had not been decommissioned by the Abassids, Europeans may indeed have used it to travel to the Far East, and vice versa. Marco Polo (had he not been butterflied away) may have been preempted by any old European ship captain making first contact with the Chinese... or maybe the Chinese will get a ship through to Europe first, who knows?

The Suez canal is now monitored by a multinational force... I think if the major players of the time wished to, they could have created such a force earlier on that would have stabilized the region enough to allow uninterrupted shipping for all member nations (and other nations, probably with a per-ship fee). As long as the price of shipping is low enough (cheaper than going to war to seize control of the canal) most nations will probably go along with it.

The only thing I see possibly getting in the way of such a force would be a religious conflict in the area, like a crusade, or a jihad, or something along those lines.

[MerryPrankster]

Seriously, who would attack Egypt when there's a canal right there. Nile=population and canal=money. I don't play the game anyway, so there.

Well, the British, French, and the Israelis, for starters. :)

The Canal would be a lovely prize to be won.

[MerryPrankster]

It'd be quite a nut to crack. Would the Hittites or Sumerians be able to take it?

The Delta is quite flat, with few if any natural defenses. Not sure if the Hittites or Sumerians would be able to take it, but eventually someone will, especially if the ruling dynasty of the region is weak or collapses altogether.

[The Mists Of Time]

My guess is a larger and probably more powerful Egyptian Empire than in OTL, and it might have lasted longer that in OTL. Would probably have eclipsed or conquored some other ancient empires such as the Persians and Assyrians. Might have eclipsed or prevented some later empires.

If some of the later empires such as Greece and especially Rome had formed in TTL, they would probably have been larger, more powerful, even longer lasting as well. Imagine how the Romans later on would have used such a canal?

Ease of transportation like that can change and butterfly a lot of things.

The Americas would still have been discovered, maybe even earlier than in OTL. Whether they would have developed as they did in OTL is another question. Even with this canal and what it would have done to transportation, trade, and shipping, and conquest, people would still have looked west across the ocean and asked, "I wonder what's out there?" Then they'd have said, "Let's go see."

[rewster]

The Americas would still have been discovered, maybe even earlier than in OTL. Whether they would have developed as they did in OTL is another question. Even with this canal and what it would have done to transportation, trade, and shipping, and conquest, people would still have looked west across the ocean and asked, "I wonder what's out there?" Then they'd have said, "Let's go see."
The problem with that is that just about everyone "knew" what was out there... China and the Indies. I can see the Vikings or a roughly equivalent group still getting just as far (Vinland) but probably having their colonies fail all the same, as this was mostly due to climate change. Some group or other might eventually go out in search of new fishing areas, and might discover the New World by accident, but not earlier than OTL, and probably later. I may have been a little off when I said the age of flight, but I can imagine the discovery being delayed until the age of steam.

Also, there is the fact that most of the late 15th/early 16th century explorers in OTL were trying to reach the Far East, and this is because the overland route was monopolized by Venice and the Ottomans. With a canal, even if someone monopolizes it, you still have the overland route, so that right there is competition... and if there is some form of coalition defending and using the canal, shipping is going to be a lot faster and cheaper than OTL.