Dutch-Swedish Empire

[EvolvedSaurian]

I have an idea but I wanna make sure nobody thinks I'm nuts.

POD: Gustavus Adolphus survives the Battle of Lutzen.

Elector of Prussia dies, Sweden and Prussia unite. The Vasas and the Oranges intermarry and voila!

[EvolvedSaurian]

Too far out?

[EvolvedSaurian]

No comments?:(

This could have some interesting possiblities, right?

[Wendell]

I think it's an interesting idea, but I doubt that it would be that simple.

[EvolvedSaurian]

I think it's an interesting idea, but I doubt that it would be that simple.

Any ideas?

[Wendell]

Any ideas?
This is not my area of expertise. Search the threads. I think this topic has come up before.

[EvolvedSaurian]

This is not my area of expertise. Search the threads. I think this topic has come up before.

A thread about a Dutch-Swedish Empire has come up before?? Now I'm scared.

I can't seem to find anyone. Not so scared now.

[Wendell]

A thread about a Dutch-Swedish Empire has come up before?? Now I'm scared.

I can't seem to find anyone. Not so scared now.
Okay, this precise idea has not,but there have been threads about this time period, I think.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Oohhh, that's what you ment. Now I understand.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Maybe Sweden getting Baltic supremacy, then going to the Netherlands to help them against the Spanish, maybe snapping up a few Germanies along the way.

[arctic warrior]

There was recently a Gustavus Adophus doesn't die at Lutzen WI. Look it up. The question of uniting Sweden and the Netherlands weren't touched upon. Of course every protestant in the time would have seen Gustavus as the champion of Lutherantism and rally but effecting an Empire with the Netherlands? How do YOU see this happen?

[EvolvedSaurian]

There was recently a Gustavus Adophus doesn't die at Lutzen WI. Look it up. The question of uniting Sweden and the Netherlands weren't touched upon. Of course every protestant in the time would have seen Gustavus as the champion of Lutherantism and rally but effecting an Empire with the Netherlands? How do YOU see this happen?

Dynastic union, somehow.

[Fearless Leader]

IIRC the Dutch were more of a republic not a monarchy

Also keep in mind that there is a huge religious gulf between Lutheran Sweden and Germany and Calvinist Holland.

I just don't see it happening.

[Max Sinister]

Quite a counterweight to Austria. Now we get a system with five powers: England/Britain, Sweden-Holland-Prussia, Austria and/or Spain, France. Until Russia enters the stage.

Why don't you write a TL yourself?

[Thande]

Sounds like an interesting idea.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Quite a counterweight to Austria. Now we get a system with five powers: England/Britain, Sweden-Holland-Prussia, Austria and/or Spain, France. Until Russia enters the stage.

Why don't you write a TL yourself?

I'm not sure how to get around some of these problems.

I think a Sweden this powerful would keep Russia out of the picture for quite a while.

[Thande]

What happens to Denmark? Didn't Gustav Adolf have plans for a new Union of Kalmar, but on Swedish terms?

[Thande]

Also, I think Tony Jones had a Swedish-Dutch union in his Monarchy World timeline link: http://www.clockworksky.net/monarchy_world/ah_mw_top.html

[EvolvedSaurian]

What happens to Denmark? Didn't Gustav Adolf have plans for a new Union of Kalmar, but on Swedish terms?

I think it's safe to say that Denmark-Norway would have to be conquered.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Also, I think Tony Jones had a Swedish-Dutch union in his Monarchy World timeline link: http://www.clockworksky.net/monarchy_world/ah_mw_top.html

And I thought I had a completly original idea. Dang.

[Thande]

And I thought I had a completly original idea. Dang.
It's not really the same though because yours happens much earlier.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Also keep in mind that there is a huge religious gulf between Lutheran Sweden and Germany and Calvinist Holland.

I'm sure the Lion of the North could have thought of some way. Maybe he could've started a new church. Pope=Antichrist, Scripture=word of God. A blending of Lutheran and Calvinist beliefs into a Church of the North(something like that).

As for the republic question: take a look at the Anglo-Dutch Union TL.

[EvolvedSaurian]

It's not really the same though because yours happens much earlier.

That's a very intersting site. Although I can't imagine Denmark surviving with such a big "Sweden"

[EvolvedSaurian]

What would such a nation be called?

How much of Poland could be conquered from the Catholic branch?

Where would France, England, Scotland, Austria and all the rest stand on this?

Is a new church feasible?

Am I asking too many questions?

ES

[Flocculencio]

As for the republic question: take a look at the Anglo-Dutch Union TL.

Yep- Gustavus himself would just lay the groundwork. After that, plop an heir into your TL who is acceptable to both the Dutch and the Swedes as a Stadthouder and King respectively. Over time, the Stadthoudership becomes officially hereditary and there you have it.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Yep- Gustavus himself would just lay the groundwork. After that, plop an heir into your TL who is acceptable to both the Dutch and the Swedes as a Stadthouder and King respectively. Over time, the Stadthoudership becomes officially hereditary and there you have it.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Who would be acceptable?

Must mull this over a cucumber sandwich and some tea.

[Flocculencio]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Who would be acceptable?

No idea. I'm not familiar with Gus' heirs. With the Anglo-Dutch Empire it was a lot easier because in OTL Willem and Mary didn't have any. I just made one up.

[EvolvedSaurian]

No idea. I'm not familiar with Gus' heirs. With the Anglo-Dutch Empire it was a lot easier because in OTL Willem and Mary didn't have any. I just made one up.

I was thinking about having his wife die after her father, then have GARS marry an upper-class Dutchwoman.

[EvolvedSaurian]

A Northern Empire

POD: Wallenstein's note to Pappenheim is delayed for several hours.

Nov. 1632- Being outnumbered without Pappenheim's troops, Catholic soldiers retreat with heavy losses. Gustav, king of the Swedes receives a light wound in his left hand. The Swedish army, expecting no other battles, buckles down for the winter.

Dec. 1632- Feb. 1633- Very little happens, as the cold prevents armies from marching.

Mar. 1633- The Lion of the North sacks nearby Catholic cities. He is largely unchallenged due to an aura of invincibility gained from Lutzen.

Apr. 1633- Wallenstein, having hired a new army, prepares for another go at the Swedes. A fair number of them desert, not wanting to face the Swedes.

What do you think so far?

[EvolvedSaurian]

May 1633- Gustavus moves his army into Prussia. He pressures George William, elector of Prussia, his brother-in-law and an ineffective ruler, to abdicate, placing himself at the top.

Jun. 1633- Polish forces attack Prussia, attempting to retake it. They are repulsed by the Swedish army.

Jul. 1633- Wallenstein manages to raise enough troops to attack Gustavus. The battle was indecisive, with both sides decimated. The Catholics seem to have taken the worst of it, as Wallenstein was killed.

Aug. 1633- Low on funds and having to rely on, indecisive at best, treacherous at worst, Prussian troops, Gustavus contacts Frederick Henry, Prince of Orange and stadtholder of five provinces, and invites him and his family to Stockholm, in hopes of a formal alliance and assistance.

Please, please respond.

[arctic warrior]

1634. With the growing Swedish-Dutch relations, Denmark-Norway tries to rally allies against the Swedes. England is reluctant as it would mean continued Sound-toll and is much more interested in Gustavus as champion of Lutheranism than Christian IV of Denmark-Norway. Russia on the other hand is tempted by the prospects of a port on the Baltic and joins in.
1637. The Swedes is challenged in both east and west, but with Ducth finances is just able to hold off the Russians with German mercenaries in Ingermanland and Livonia and a Swedish army captures Danish possessions in Southern Sweden - Scania, Halland, Blekinga.
1638. Denmark-Norway is out of the war and sue for peace which is quickly granted due to the action in the east and English interests in keeping the Sound divided.

[EvolvedSaurian]

^ Um.....

I was more looking for praise, criticism, advice or nitpicks, not extensions. Thanks for some ideas though, and for responding.

[arctic warrior]

OK- you'we got it going. Just wanted to give some inspiration and think along the path laid down in the former post's.

[EvolvedSaurian]

OK- you'we got it going. Just wanted to give some inspiration and think along the path laid down in the former post's.

Thanks for caring.:)

I was actually thinking of something more along the lines of a formal union eventually. In the short term a loose confederation would have to suffice.

Your ideas are very interesting though. Especially the Danish-Russian attack on Sweden.

[arctic warrior]

The Danish - Swedish war came about in 1643 with a Swedish attack upon Denmark and lasted until 1645 with Danish defeat and loss of parts of Norway, Halland and the islands of Gotland and Oesel. But it could as well have been a Danish attack.
A real Swedish - Netherlands alliance would have promted a Danish attack, if not they were beaten to it by the Swedes. Russia would be a natural ally for Denmark-Norway.