Earlier maori

[Leej]

So that 'wi Europeans never reach north America' TL got me thinking.
New Zealand was only first colonized in 1000AD, really very recent times. By the time Europeans showed up however the maori were developing pretty well, they were a lot more 'civilized' then many other primitive tribal folks.
So WI in a similar vein to that north America bit NZ gets sent off in its own little time warp and is allowed to develop on its own?

[EvolvedSaurian]

So that 'wi Europeans never reach north America' TL got me thinking.
New Zealand was only first colonized in 1000AD, really very recent times. By the time Europeans showed up however the maori were developing pretty well, they were a lot more 'civilized' then many other primitive tribal folks.
So WI in a similar vein to that north America bit NZ gets sent off in its own little time warp and is allowed to develop on its own?

What kind of plants and animals does NZ have?

[Thande]

Interesting idea Leej - depends how far back NZ is sent, of course, but it could at least turn into another Japan (capable of meeting the West on its own terms, given a little time to adapt upon first contact). Maybe even colonise Australia and make the Indonesian states tributary.

Which means that Westerners would meet the Maori long before first contact in OTL - perhaps as early as the 1600s, when the Dutch, Portuguese etc are playing about in the East Indies.

[Tielhard]

Depends which book you read but seems to be the Moriori were in kiwi ca. 800 AD the Maori arrived in the first great Canoe ca. 1350 AD.

Unfortunately, the Maori were not developing when the Europeans arrived. They had some serious dietary problems: Severe protein shortages and a lack of (if I recall correctly) trace Thallium in the soil.

What the Maori did that no other tribal people did which no other stone age people (not tribal they were not tribal as such) was to develop at an absolutely staggering rate. In part this was due to Cook and the sealers and whalers leaving pigs and other live stock on NI. It was also due to the introduction of the Tohunga (?) rmusket and the subsequent Darwinian struggle of the musket wars and the development of the modern Pa. The effect of the mission of 'Flogger' Marsden a savage hater of Australian convicts cannot be overstated the monster seems to have got off the boat in Kiwi and turned into a Saint. Redemtion indeed. Anyway by the time the British get there they are well on thier way. They met the British army head on in the best field fortifications seen until WWI, they used cannon and they even tried to build a King! When Kiwi became the first nation on Earth* to extend sufferage to women it is often forgotten that it extended it to the native Maori as well.

Ja, Ja, Wyoming and Manx not quite the same thing.

[Thande]

they even tried to build a King!
Sorry, what exactly do you mean by this?


I think it's the fortifications, and the rapid adaptation to the effect of the gun on warfare, that are most impressive.

[Tielhard]

The Maori were disunited the hapu contested with one another as much as they did with the British. They saw the need for unity in order to face the British as equals and so they started a movement to create a king for the Maori. The King movement is still trying to achieve that today although now there are other routes to Maori unity.

[Keenir]

What kind of plants and animals does NZ have?

For that matter, what kind of metal/mineral/stone resources does New Zealand's 3 islands have?

Though it would certainly be an interesting thought-experiment, to speculate upon how much technological development could be done when about 90% of the diet comes from the ocean. (if the population goes up, the amount of edible plants inland goes down -- and the moas & giant eagles are already extinct).

a very neat thread, this!

[EvolvedSaurian]

For that matter, what kind of metal/mineral/stone resources does New Zealand's 3 islands have?

Though it would certainly be an interesting thought-experiment, to speculate upon how much technological development could be done when about 90% of the diet comes from the ocean. (if the population goes up, the amount of edible plants inland goes down -- and the moas & giant eagles are already extinct).

a very neat thread, this!

3 islands?

[Thande]

3 islands?
There's Stewart, as well, although most people just count the two big ones (North and South).

[Leej]

Yeah that got me too...Which of the minor ones are you counting as worthy of being a 3rd? The middle one?

[EvolvedSaurian]

Wow only 236 people.

[Thande]

Wow only 236 people.
Is that Stewart, or the whole of NZ? :p j/k

[EvolvedSaurian]

Maori colonies on Australia could be interesting. More room and mineral wealth.

[Jared]

There's a simple way to allow Maori civilization to develop further, faster: have pigs make it to New Zealand (and elsewhere in Polynesia). The Polynesians as a group brought a few kinds of domestic animals with them (pigs and dogs), but the pigs didn't make it to New Zealand. If they did, they would make excellent food animals, alleviating the protein deficiencies which severely affected the Maori. (They'd also produce untold devastation on the native wildlife, too.)

[Keenir]

Yeah that got me too...Which of the minor ones are you counting as worthy of being a 3rd? The middle one?

when I was reading a book about the Natural History of New Zealand, it mentioned that, while the Maori inhabit the larger two islands, there is a closely-related cultural group who inhabit the third New Zealand island.

I don't know if its Stewart or not...the book is at my local library.

[Thande]

There's a simple way to allow Maori civilization to develop further, faster: have pigs make it to New Zealand (and elsewhere in Polynesia). The Polynesians as a group brought a few kinds of domestic animals with them (pigs and dogs), but the pigs didn't make it to New Zealand. If they did, they would make excellent food animals, alleviating the protein deficiencies which severely affected the Maori. (They'd also produce untold devastation on the native wildlife, too.)
That's a nice non-ASB POD.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Did the Maoris have chickens?

[Keenir]

Did the Maoris have chickens?

only if they brought chickens from Haiwai'i.

[Dave Howery]

What kind of plants and animals does NZ have?
not much. The only wildlife of real note was the moas, which were quickly wiped out by the Maoris. Most of NZ's wildlife was birds of various sorts, many of them flightless. The only non-bird of note was the tuatara, a lizard-like reptile of dinosaur era lineage. NZ has bats, seals, but no native mammals other than those... the Maori brought dogs and rats. I read that NZ is even comparatively poorer in insect life compared to other landmasses. It has been isolated for a very long geological time...

[EvolvedSaurian]

Don't forget the wetas.

Can seals be domesticated?

[Keenir]

Can seals be domesticated?

short answer: no.

[EvolvedSaurian]

short answer: no.

Just an idle thought. I had an image of seal-drawn sea-chariots.

[sunsurf]

About domesticating seals...

short answer: no.

I'm no expert on seals, but...aren't there trained seals doing tricks for audiences in circuses and the like? Granted, that's not very useful, but...?

Maybe as pets, as food, or both? Maybe a role in religious ceremonies?

Leej's original post was for an ASB time-warp, but it didn't have to be. There are suggestions that some Polynesian islands might have been inhabited much earlier. And tidal waves might have wiped out entire populations, leaving no traces on those islands.

So we could posit NZ being inhabited from, let's say, 1000 BC onward...

I like those wetas. :D Are they edible? :D

[EvolvedSaurian]

'Cause you can't pasture them.

[Keenir]

About domesticating seals...

I'm no expert on seals, but...aren't there trained seals doing tricks for audiences in circuses and the like?


yes there are; there are also trained tigers and mambas.

Maybe as pets,

clearly somebody's seen too many tv teledramas....seals are not pets, they aren't built for it.

as food, or both? Maybe a role in religious ceremonies?


sure....but you get the same results by luring in a wild seal and clubbing it. (or simply spearing it out in the wild)

[Leej]

both? Maybe a role in religious ceremonies?

Leej's original post was for an ASB time-warp, but it didn't have to be. There are suggestions that some Polynesian islands might have been inhabited much earlier. And tidal waves might have wiped out entire populations, leaving no traces on those islands.

No it wasn't. It was a figure of speach. It was just assuming the maori able to develop on their own with no foreign interferance

[sunsurf]

Sorry I misunderstood Leej's first post.

yes there are; there are also trained tigers and mambas.


It kinda goes without saying that we don't want those as pets...:D though some people are dumb enough to have dangerous pets in their small cramped apartments. :rolleyes:



clearly somebody's seen too many tv teledramas....

Yup! :D :rolleyes:

So, do seals just run away, do they start biting, do they ignore their keepers, is it like having a pet ant?

[Dave Howery]

Don't forget the wetas.

Can seals be domesticated?
the what?

no.

[Wendell]

Might the Maori develop their own written script, or did they have one already?

[Max Sinister]

@Tielhard: It can't be Thallium, Thallium is poisonous...

[Tielhard]

Sorry, particularly spectacular cock-up on my part. North Island soils chronically defficient in Selenium NOT Thallium. That will teach me to do things from memory alone. Also discovered whilst checking that Copper and Cobalt are also in short supply in New Zealand.

[Paul MacQ]

Input from a Kiwi on the Board

Natural Resources Available in New Zealand
Wood some very good timber
Great Climate for growing many Crops

Missing Metals, Domesticated Animals


Maori where a very innovative people and welling to learn and very Adaptable
Case in point Early Missionaries discovered that some tribes had already learnt Reading and Writing prior to Meeting the Missionaries. They had discovered othere Maori that had learnt and wanted to have it.

Maori where able to independently develop Trench warfare and the Pa Hill forts
Where very effective
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_land_wars

Domestic Animals would have been good
Sheep would gave been a nice Wool for the Colder South Island
Reducing the examples Cannibalism due to lack of Protein a major reason for Major small Communities

In the 1840s Waikato Maori where exporting Grain to Sydney as they had picked up European Gardening so fast they ended up being better at it due to an understanding of local conditions.

Resources
Iron New Zealand is a Gross exporter of Iron from massive Iron Sands deposits but getting Iron out Needs lots of Electrical energy. Main bi-product is Titanium slag.

The winds and Currents have made it easy to get to New Zealand But harder to leave.

Sadly not 1000 years early
: Magellan could have missed New Zealand by only a Couple of Hundred Miles after leaving the Straights that beer his Name

: 1421 The Great Chinese fleets sails south and east to discover new lands

[The Ubbergeek]

when I was reading a book about the Natural History of New Zealand, it mentioned that, while the Maori inhabit the larger two islands, there is a closely-related cultural group who inhabit the third New Zealand island.

I don't know if its Stewart or not...the book is at my local library.

The Morioris? (spelling?). That was another polynesian people, very interesting - they renounced war and embraced pacifism. And got slaughtered by maori invaders...

[EvolvedSaurian]

The Morioris? (spelling?). That was another polynesian people, very interesting - they renounced war and embraced pacifism. And got slaughtered by maori invaders...

A bit ironic considering that the Morioris were descended from Maoris who settled in the Chathams and were forced to convert to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle by bad climate.

[Roadwarrior]

It would be interesting if the Maori could reach Australia (more territory and more exploitable resources). Don't know how plausible this would be as they apparently gave up on long ocean voyages after reaching NZ and the prevailing winds/tides are apparently against them (can't guarantee this as am not nautically minded).

[bondiboy66]

A lot of the success of the Maori in Australia would be dependant on where they landed - Australia has wildly varying climates e.g. the Eastern Seaboard ranges from tropical jungle up north to sub-tropical rainforest in the south, open grasslands, rugged coastlines etc.. Also, the local flora and fauna is vastly different to what they found in NZ. In fact, much of the flora is poisonous to eat unless you knew which parts of the plant to eat, or how to treat it to make it edible. They would also have the local Aboriginal folks to deal with - who had at least a 40,000 year head start on the Maori in adapting to Australia's conditions (how to obtain food, adoption of a nomadic lifestyle to best obtain the food etc.).

In my opinion they would have fared very badly - the landscape would be extremely harsh on them, as would the Aboriginal people already there. At best, they would be incorporated into Aboriginal legends for the white settlers to hear about 1000 years later.

(Oh, and this is my first post here so hello!)

[Roadwarrior]

A little harsh, don't you think? I think that the Maori might be a bit tougher and more adaptable than you give them credit for.

Good point about the landing area BTW.

[bondiboy66]

Harsh - yes. But when you consider that not one native Australian animal has been domesticated, and the only native plant that has been farmed is the Macadamia, then the first challenge facing Maori settlers would be adapting to a very nomadic lifestyle. Indeed, intitially they may well be hard pressed to simply find enough to eat. Or they may find it - but actually killing a critter for food could prove problematic (kangaroos tend to be rather fleet of foot and if injured tend to bugger off at high speed. Aboriginals got around this by spearing them with bloody big spears, thus restricting their buggering off ability!). Coastal areas would be a better bet with the fish etc..

And they still have the Aboriginal folks to contend with. Assuming a weakened state from lack of food - the Maori may not prevail over the locals. Anyways - there is a hell of a lot to this particular argument!

[HueyLong]

Change the Polynesian cultural and economic package if you want a bit more punch to these early Maori. If they can somehow bring some hardy rice from China's north (Austronesians originated in South China, so it might not be too big a step giving them a nice temperate zone crop.... it just might not survive the voyage and generations to NZ)

[The Ubbergeek]

Would getting rice by the malays help? They grow rices in the malay isles already, and it must be varieties used to heat.

[HueyLong]

But the Malays were hunter-gatherers when the Austronesians went through.... and from what I know, the parts of NZ suitable for early farming are temperate, not tropical.

[The Ubbergeek]

Yeah, albeit it was at start in an idea about the Maoris landing in Australia.

[Roadwarrior]

Well, the Maori brought the sweet potato with them when they migrated to NZ. No reason that they would not take it with them should they continue on to Australia. Any initial settlement would be coastal so they would be able to survive on fish etc while waiting for the first crops.

There are other eatable animals besides the kangaroo which are easier to catch. Also, there is no reason to believe that the initial contact between Maori and Aboriginal would be hostile, so it is possible that a working relationship could develop allowing the Maori to learn all they needed to know about their new environment.

A successful Maori settlement might jolt the locals out of their highly successful hunter/gatherer existence. Some interesting social/cultural possibilities there.

[Leej]

But the Malays were hunter-gatherers when the Austronesians went through.... and from what I know, the parts of NZ suitable for early farming are temperate, not tropical.
The Malayans weren't even there when the Australians 'went through'.
Most of southern asia was originally inhabited by Australoids but then the Caucasians and Mongoloids pretty much wiped them out.

[bondiboy66]

Very interesting points Roadwarrior - and ones I had not considered. Stated the way you did, I'd say the Maori had a good chance of surviving in Australia. I suppose ultimately it would probably depend on where they landed...either way up north or down in Victoria or Tasmania they would fare best due to the greater rainfall in my opinion.

[The Ubbergeek]

Definitly, if they land in Tasmania, they have a chance of survival - the island was nicknamed teh 'second Britain' due to it's moderate climate and general look, which is close also to New Zealand I guess.

[bondiboy66]

Tasmania is very similar to NZ - cold, wet and lush with vegetation. The Maori probably would have done quite well there. I know when I went to Tasmania I was struck by how similar to NZ it was - it just lacks NZ's thermal activity.

[Tom Veil]

Harsh - yes. But when you consider that not one native Australian animal has been domesticated, and the only native plant that has been farmed is the Macadamia, then the first challenge facing Maori settlers would be adapting to a very nomadic lifestyle. Indeed, intitially they may well be hard pressed to simply find enough to eat. Or they may find it - but actually killing a critter for food could prove problematic (kangaroos tend to be rather fleet of foot and if injured tend to bugger off at high speed. Aboriginals got around this by spearing them with bloody big spears, thus restricting their buggering off ability!). Coastal areas would be a better bet with the fish etc..

And they still have the Aboriginal folks to contend with. Assuming a weakened state from lack of food - the Maori may not prevail over the locals. Anyways - there is a hell of a lot to this particular argument!

BINGO! Give the Maori another 1000 years, give them a chance to invade Australia, and unless you give them access to Eurasian crops, writing, and technology, they'll end up barely faring any better. Until European crops arrived, Australia and New Zealand simply couldn't support the large population necessary for the leap to medieval-level civilization.

[HueyLong]

Actually it was an American crop that pushed them forward, the potato, and the taro they had was not all that dissimiliar. Another 1000 years of domestication, well, look at what happened to corn.

[Max Sinister]

Hm, now if the Maori brought that taro to the Australian continent, where there's more space for agriculture... are you thinking the same I think?

[HueyLong]

Taro isn't as hardy as potatoes, and couldn't survive easily on the Australian continent. I was referring to breeding for larger crop yields, which is what got teosinte (corn) from half an inch to 6 inches by Columbus's arrival.