Jefferson's dream comes true, a republic of small self sufficient yeoman farmers

[The Mists Of Time]

Thomas Jefferson's dream or ideal for America was for The United States to be an agrairian republic made up mostly of small self sufficient yeoman farmers.

What if Jefferson's dream of this agrairian republic had come true and what if that is what The United States still was today?

[Straha]

DoD seems like a jeffersonian america taken to new levels.

[NapoleonXIV]

I see Orson Scott Card's world of Alvin Maker but without the magic. An America about the size of Jefferson's, with Amerind republics, Deseret , a much larger Mexico and the nations of Texas and California . Worldwide, the great Kingdoms of the the 19thc remain, made much more liberal by successful revolutions in 1848 and later, since they didn't have the safety valve of immigration to America. Overall the level of the world would be around 1900 since the very powerful inventive and industrial engine of the US would not have existed to pull the world along.

The problem is you need the magic. An America that doesn't industrialise is pretty much ASB.

[rewster]

DoD seems like a jeffersonian america taken to new levels.
DoD... Department of Defense? Day of Defeat? DOD Electronics?

I think a Republic like Jefferson's dream was already impossible in his time... there were already cities full of non-farmers, who were not likely to turn around and start growing things.
Farmers can't be entirely self-sufficient... people need things like salt, for instance. They can make the homespun clothes, grow enough food to feed themselves, and stay alive, but this is no different than subsistence farming as it is practiced in many parts of the world today... and the standard of living is not high. Without large cities and a specialized work force, you simply do not advance.

[Keenir]

Thomas Jefferson's dream or ideal for America was for The United States to be an agrairian republic made up mostly of small self sufficient yeoman farmers.

What if Jefferson's dream of this agrairian republic had come true and what if that is what The United States still was today?

oh yes masa, we be keepin de plantations good, you betcha.

Never mind that the US'll never expand beyond the Mississippi....or much past the Appalachians.

[Nekromans]

DoD... Department of Defense? Day of Defeat? DOD Electronics?

Decades of Darkness.

[Faeelin]

Never mind that the US'll never expand beyond the Mississippi....or much past the Appalachians.

We weren't an economic superpower when we bought Louisiana; and farmers were the people who settled the new land.

That said, we will be much poorer and less well off without the industrialization that OTL's 19th century brought.

And on a side note, does anyone else find it humorous that the man who espoused this agricultural utopia ran his farm with slaves?

[luakel]

Probably either no or very little immigration, and slavery lasting into the 1900's at least...

[King Gorilla]

Probably either no or very little immigration, and slavery lasting into the 1900's at least...

I wouldn't go that far because alot of the settlers in the old northwest and great plains were deccently well off germans, Britains and Scandinavians who came to america inorder receive large plots of free premium farmland.

[danielb1]

Thomas Jefferson's dream or ideal for America was for The United States to be an agrairian republic made up mostly of small self sufficient yeoman farmers.

What if Jefferson's dream of this agrairian republic had come true and what if that is what The United States still was today?

Well, the best thing to do would be to somehow butterfly away the second immigrant boom in the latter 19th century - huge numbers of immigrants came to cities and boosted their population and wealth well beyond the rural areas.

Some other ideas on how to keep the US more agrarian-ish:
1. Earlier discovery of kerosene reduces settlement in the Northeast (less whaling).
2. Earlier invention of some more advanced farming tools (ie McCormick reaper) and retarded innovation in industrial fields encourages farming.
3. An early end to slavery, possibly joined with greater ex-slave emigration to Liberia, will open up more land for small farmers in the Misssissippi valley.
4. Coupling #3 with a somewhat later invention of the cotton gin to discourage large slave plantations.

[Imajin]

We'd need to lose the North-East states.

[Straha]

We'd need to lose the North-East states.
Hartford convention suceeds and evertything from new jersey/pennsylania northeastwards secedes in 1812.

[Dave Howery]

what about Jefferson's other dream: that Lewis and Clark would find mammoths out west...

[Straha]

what about Jefferson's other dream: that Lewis and Clark would find mammoths out west...
An interesting and perfectly valid post but it I think it goes in ASBs unfortunately.

[Dave Howery]

whoops... somebody already posted that one...

[Straha]

whoops... somebody already posted that one...
I just posted it right now compelte with your quote.

[Faeelin]

Hrrm.

Let's toss this idea out.

The US is almost certainly going to be well educated, no matter what.

It has coal and iron fields in numerous locations, each the size of the Ruhr and of similar quality.

It's a massive free trade area.

Does it seem to anyone else like American industrialization is very, very, very likely?

[Wendell]

Hrrm.

Let's toss this idea out.

The US is almost certainly going to be well educated, no matter what.

It has coal and iron fields in numerous locations, each the size of the Ruhr and of similar quality.

It's a massive free trade area.

Does it seem to anyone else like American industrialization is very, very, very likely?
I think indfustrialization will still happen, but it might take a different form.

[Keenir]

The US is almost certainly going to be well educated, no matter what.

Well-educated in...?

The Roman Empire was well-educated, yet it lacked in certain things.

Given that the Founding Fathers wanted to emulate the Romans and Greeks, they might skimp on a few fields of study.


It has coal and iron fields in numerous locations, each the size of the Ruhr and of similar quality.

Not every culture who sit on iron fields end up using the fields that much.


It's a massive free trade area.

wait, from Maine to Georgia/Carolinas & from the Atlantic to the Mississippi (at most) is a massive free trade area? Are we even assuming the states get along that well?

[Wendell]

I have read somewhere that Jefferson wanted a centralized educational structure as well. One wonders what effect that might have on things.

[Scarecrow]

what about Jefferson's other dream: that Lewis and Clark would find mammoths out west...
or the one about the giant shoes with teeth? hmm. probibly best that one doesnt come true...

[Faeelin]

Well-educated in...?

The Roman Empire was well-educated, yet it lacked in certain things.

Given that the Founding Fathers wanted to emulate the Romans and Greeks, they might skimp on a few fields of study.


OTL, Midwesterners were among the best educated people in the nation in the early 20th century.

This surprised me at first too, but makes sense, if you think about it; German immigrants brought the kindegarten; settlers from New England brought public schools;

Not every culture who sit on iron fields end up using the fields that much.

Did the US suddenly become a banana republic, in this TL? And if so, why?

wait, from Maine to Georgia/Carolinas & from the Atlantic to the Mississippi (at most) is a massive free trade area? Are we even assuming the states get along that well?

Why wouldn't they?

And this trade area is larger than western Europe. Less heavily populated, of course.

And for those who are so sure that this TL requires slavery: "Free Soil, Free States, Fremont!"

The Republicans were very popular out west.

[Keenir]

OTL, Midwesterners were among the best educated people in the nation in the early 20th century.

wait...how did we get from the 1790s and 1810s to the 1900s?

that's a wee bit of a leap.


This surprised me at first too, but makes sense, if you think about it; German immigrants brought the kindegarten; settlers from New England brought public schools;

I don't doubt that....the Moravians promoted equal education for men and women all through their history.



Did the US suddenly become a banana republic, in this TL? And if so, why?

let me clarify my statement with another: how many cultures spent centuries sitting on radioactive materials and waterfalls without tapping their power outputs?


And this trade area is larger than western Europe. Less heavily populated, of course.

so is Russia. (for both of those sentances).


And for those who are so sure that this TL requires slavery: "Free Soil, Free States, Fremont!"

not so much "requires" as "won't abolitionize"....as there is no debate over western states in this ATL, since the nation won't be passing the Mississippi.


The Republicans were very popular out west.

didn't they only emerge after the Civil War?

[Keenir]

OTL, Midwesterners were among the best educated people in the nation in the early 20th century.

wait...how did we get from the 1790s and 1810s to the 1900s?

that's a wee bit of a leap.


This surprised me at first too, but makes sense, if you think about it; German immigrants brought the kindegarten; settlers from New England brought public schools;

I don't doubt that....the Moravians promoted equal education for men and women all through their history.



Did the US suddenly become a banana republic, in this TL? And if so, why?

let me clarify my statement with another: how many cultures spent centuries sitting on radioactive materials and waterfalls without tapping their power outputs?


And this trade area is larger than western Europe. Less heavily populated, of course.

so is Russia. (for both of those sentances).


And for those who are so sure that this TL requires slavery: "Free Soil, Free States, Fremont!"

not so much "requires" as "won't abolitionize"....as there is no debate over western states in this ATL, since the nation won't be passing the Mississippi.


The Republicans were very popular out west.

didn't they only emerge after the Civil War?

[Faeelin]

wait...how did we get from the 1790s and 1810s to the 1900s?

that's a wee bit of a leap.

It's true for the late 18th, early 19th century as well. New England's literacy rates were higher than most places in Europe.

let me clarify my statement with another: how many cultures spent centuries sitting on radioactive materials and waterfalls without tapping their power outputs?


Err. Many, as the technology to harness nuclear power didn't arise til the 20th century.

I don't see your point.

A better argument would be pointing out examples of societies that had abundant natural resources, figuring out why they didn't industrialize, and whether or not that would apply to the US as well.


so is Russia. (for both of those sentances).

Except Russia was, for a variety of reasons, much poorer than the US, even in areas that should have been as productive.

Compare the Ukraine to Iowa.


not so much "requires" as "won't abolitionize"....as there is no debate over western states in this ATL, since the nation won't be passing the Mississippi.


Why not? Again, the US was hardly an industrial superpower when it bought Louisiana.

Under Thomas Jefferson.

didn't they only emerge after the Civil War?

Nope.

[danielb1]

didn't they only emerge after the Civil War?

Not only did the Republicans emerge BEFORE the Civil War (founded 1854, first serious Presidential candidate 1856 [Fremont], won the White House in 1860 [Lincoln]), but he's probably referring to the original Republicans. There were not one but two parties before the GOP that were 'Republican' at one point: the 'Democratic-Republicans' of Jefferson's era, who tended toward small-government paleo-libertarian agrarianism (and they evolved to become today's Democrats, taking care to occupy every part of the political spectrum at one point or another during history before finally evolving into today's left-liberal-progressive-socialist-whateveryoucallitism) and the 'Nationalist Republicans' of the late 1820s-early 1830s who later became the Whigs.

[King Gorilla]

Not to mention the northwest ordinence mandating that a certain percentage of land in each settlement be set aside for the founding (and funding) of schools. Not to mention that this practice was carried on with colleges filling the region with nifty landgrant universities.

[NapoleonXIV]

I have read somewhere that Jefferson wanted a centralized educational structure as well. One wonders what effect that might have on things.

Not to mention the northwest ordinence mandating that a certain percentage of land in each settlement be set aside for the founding (and funding) of schools. Not to mention that this practice was carried on with colleges filling the region with nifty landgrant universities.


In 1802 Jefferson appoints Francis Folger Franklin (who survived the smallpox that killed him in OTL) as the first Federal Secretary of Education, whose main job will be oversee the many new land grant Unis that are already springing up. Under Jefferson, one main function of these Universities is to oversee and promote the interests of his small farmers, with land agents educating them in the latest agricultural sciences and organizing them to work together for maximum efficiency. Another is to train teachers, who will educate the farmer's children to be better farmers themselves.

As the century progresses the farmers become more and more prosperous and productive. Industrialisation, meanwhile , proceeds apace, financed by farming, it even outstrips the development of OTL, farming , however, remains even bigger.

The Universities naturally become centers of learning and development for the farming industry. The cotton gin is invented by Whitney as in OTl but the auto cotton picker and a compact steam tractor and reaper are invented the same year.

The great plantations of the South never develop, being replaced by coops made up of many small farms. These produce the same amount of cotton as in OTL but also a great diversity of other crops, using scientific methods which increase productivity and do not exhaust the soil. Slavery dies on the vine, having no real use on small but highly mechanized farms, and is abolished in 1825.

to be continued

[Wendell]

In 1802 Jefferson appoints Francis Folger Franklin (who survived the smallpox that killed him in OTL) as the first Federal Secretary of Education, whose main job will be oversee the many new land grant Unis that are already springing up. Under Jefferson, one main function of these Universities is to oversee and promote the interests of his small farmers, with land agents educating them in the latest agricultural sciences and organizing them to work together for maximum efficiency. Another is to train teachers, who will educate the farmer's children to be better farmers themselves.

As the century progresses the farmers become more and more prosperous and productive. Industrialisation, meanwhile , proceeds apace, financed by farming, it even outstrips the development of OTL, farming , however, remains even bigger.

The Universities naturally become centers of learning and development for the farming industry. The cotton gin is invented by Whitney as in OTl but the auto cotton picker and a compact steam tractor and reaper are invented the same year.

The great plantations of the South never develop, being replaced by coops made up of many small farms. These produce the same amount of cotton as in OTL but also a great diversity of other crops, using scientific methods which increase productivity and do not exhaust the soil. Slavery dies on the vine, having no real use on small but highly mechanized farms, and is abolished in 1825.

to be continued
I will keep reading:)

[Keenir]

It's true for the late 18th, early 19th century as well. New England's literacy rates were higher than most places in Europe.


If I recall, they were on par with a certain Central American country whose President had a lot of Roman-style temples built (dedicated to Minerva) and held annual festivals, with the smartest kids feted about.

I can't recall the nation's name offhand, but I do know that it didn't stay in the upper ranks of education and industry for too many generations.

so there is precedent for a nation backsliding even when they are highly-educated and highly-motivated.

[King Gorilla]

The nation was Guatemala however, somehow I don't think that Gutemala would be a very good comparrison to the United States for a number of reasons, not the least being that the United States didn't have a population of peasantry and a government dominated by feuding caudillos.

[The Mists Of Time]

Some here have also talked about education and mechanized and scientific farming.

Jefferson was very big on education and on public education. I read somewhere that while he was President, he also served on what was then the D.C. public school board. Jefferson also wanted publicly funded education through the college level and invisioned a University of The United States. He also said of American farmers, "Our farmers read." So it seems Jefferson wanted a nation of highly educated, scientific, self sufficient, yeoman farmers. A republican agrairian utopia.


He was also very much into invention and into technology that made farming more efficient, pleasant, and enjoyable.

Jefferson felt that even in the face of technology and industry (yes he did feel there would be technology and industry in America) most Americans would choose the agrairian way of life as small, self sufficient, yeoman farmers because the benefits of this kind of agrairian lifestyle would be so wonderful that most Americans would truly cherish and preserve it forever.

A fascinating book about this is "The Radical Politics Of Thomas Jefferson" by Richard K. Matthews. I don't know if it's still in print, but it is a fascinating look into Thomas Jefferson's inner psyche.

It would be interesting to know what history would have been like, what the world and America would have been like over the years and today had we followed Jefferson's model and vision for The United States.

Given their minds and such it would be interesting to know what Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin would have done with computers and the internet.

[Keenir]

Jefferson felt that even in the face of technology and industry (yes he did feel there would be technology and industry in America) most Americans would choose the agrairian way of life as small, self sufficient, yeoman farmers because the benefits of this kind of agrairian lifestyle would be so wonderful that most Americans would truly cherish and preserve it forever.

It would be interesting to know what history would have been like, what the world and America would have been like over the years and today had we followed Jefferson's model and vision for The United States.

we wouldn't be the united United States. we'd be hundreds of self-sufficient district-nations.



Given their minds and such it would be interesting to know what Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin would have done with computers and the internet.

based on the above, they would have said "nobody will use this" in the hope that everyone would continue to remain contented in their self-sufficient farms.

[Keenir]

The nation was Guatemala however, somehow I don't think that Gutemala would be a very good comparrison to the United States for a number of reasons, not the least being that the United States didn't have a population of peasantry

wha?

we didn't have an underclass or a middleclass in the 1700s and 1800s???


and a government dominated by feuding caudillos.

only because we call ours governors and statesmen.

[MerryPrankster]

oh yes masa, we be keepin de plantations good, you betcha.

Never mind that the US'll never expand beyond the Mississippi....or much past the Appalachians.

It was Jefferson who presided over the Louisiana purchase.

[MerryPrankster]

we wouldn't be the united United States. we'd be hundreds of self-sufficient district-nations.


Why?

*****

[MerryPrankster]

only because we call ours governors and statesmen.

Ours don't fight wars with each other, and power generally does not remain within the same ten families for centuries at a time.

[Keenir]

Why?

*****

look up hte word "self-sufficient". a truly self-sufficient farm would not need membership in a nation.

[Keenir]

It was Jefferson who presided over the Louisiana purchase.

that doesn't mean it was part of his dream. it just means politics and situations demanded it.

[Keenir]

Ours don't fight wars with each other, and power generally does not remain within the same ten families for centuries at a time.

it doesn't?

we had at least one Presidential "dynasty" in the first century of the US history (the Adams)....and the states had a habit of fighting one another - both with guns and with statesmen.
(ie, the Virginia-North Carolina border, among other places)

[Max Sinister]

I wonder whether Britain or another European power would try to re-colonize the USA.

[Faeelin]

If I recall, they were on par with a certain Central American country whose President had a lot of Roman-style temples built (dedicated to Minerva) and held annual festivals, with the smartest kids feted about.


I am very interested in what source you found that says New England in the late 18th, early 19th century had a standard of living and literacy rates similar to Guatemala's.

[Faeelin]

we wouldn't be the united United States. we'd be hundreds of self-sufficient district-nations.


You mean, like Canada and Australia in OTL?

For that matter, America.

[Faeelin]

that doesn't mean it was part of his dream. it just means politics and situations demanded it.


And in this TL, why would that be different?

[Keenir]

And in this TL, why would that be different?

because the subject line for the thread says "Jefferson's dream comes true"...which suggests the politics which demanded counter to his dream, are not an issue in this ATL.

[Keenir]

You mean, like Canada and Australia in OTL?

For that matter, America.

no, because no neighborhood or farm in OTL America is entirely self-sufficient.....maybe the Diggers of Australia were, or the Lombards of England, or the Swiss of Europe.

[Keenir]

I am very interested in what source you found that says New England in the late 18th, early 19th century had a standard of living and literacy rates similar to Guatemala's.

I'm more than a little worried that you think New England is the entirety of the early 18th Century US.
(if Jefferson's dream is to come true, we first have to get through the first half of that century)

I think the magazine was Americas or Scientific American.