Dueling

[EvolvedSaurian]

Could dueling have survived to the present day? Stayed upper-class or spread down? Pistols or sabers? First blood, to the death or one shot?

[Torqumada]

If the laws could be amended to only first blood, I could see it going on, or maybe a written contract between the two parties, absolving the other of the guilt of death or injury.

Torqumada

[MrP]

Aye, I'm with Torq. If it's purely a ceremonial thing, it should be possible. Otherwise moral campaigners will just try to have it banned. So fencing but without a mask, perhaps? Or with a mask, but bare arms (veins and arteries still covered), maybe?

[NapoleonXIV]

As a violent confrontation, no. Even in it's heyday it was criticized as legalized murder. It would look particularly silly after WWI, which showed people that death could be mass produced and there was no longer any skill or courage required to kill someone.

As a nonviolent contest, doesn't it still exist? Debating societies and whatnot

[Chengar Qordath]

I would think that for dueling to survive in the modern world, it would probably have to be with the blade, and only fought to first blood. Dueling to the death opens all kinds of doors for legalised murder, and firearms are not really suited to any form of non-lethal dueling. On the other hand, if two consenting adults want to swipe swords at each other until one of them picks up a relatively minor injury, I could see that being somewhat accepted.

[EvolvedSaurian]

The consensus seems to be first blood.

Would it remain an upper-class thing?

[MrP]

The consensus seems to be first blood.

Would it remain an upper-class thing?

It'd extend to the middles who wanted to seem posher. But I don't see it reaching the lower classes. They're far too sensible for that. Why give someone you hate a scar when you can beat the tar out of him instead? ;)

[LordKalvan]

If duelling were to be re-allowed, IMHO a professional class of duellists would develop. Want to humiliate an enemy? your professional would insult him, and put him in a position where he either looks a wimp or has to duel.

It is quite a popular theme in SF books, btw. It might make a come-back, why not?

[Archangel Michael]

It is quite a popular theme in SF books, btw. It might make a come-back, why not?

Such as Weber's Honorverse.

One of the things that David Weber does in the Honorverse is televising duels between important people (Honor v. Summervale was recorded and IIRC, the Honor v. Young duel was televised). Would televised duels between important people become popular?

[NapoleonXIV]

Since the challenged has the choice of place and weapons can't he just make it ridiculous?

Lincoln was challenged to a duel. He at first specified the place as a cow pasture and the weapons as cowpies. When the challenger demanded real weapons Lincoln agreed to swords but gave a postion in Lat and Long which was the middle of the Mississippi River. The challenger finally gave up.

[Aldroud]

What do you mean 'Come Back'?
After WW2 there was a movement in France to renew dueling, as was a similar movement in Germany. Something called Mansaur or Manseur. Man, trust the Germans to come up with something like this: you and your opponent face eachother one blade's length away with eye/nose protectors and a padded sleeve. First one to draw blood on the face of their opponent wins. And there were German college societies that did this for FUN?!:confused: (still do if some of the stuff I've heard is true).

Anyways, I'd fully support a return to dueling. Oh, but it has to have a 'to the DEATH!' clause in it. I would imagine it would bring a sharp comeback to civility and politeness in society.

An Armed Society is a Polite Society

[LordKalvan]

Heidelberg was a classic place for students' duelling: if I remember right, the name was "Mensur". It was strongly discouraged after WW2, since it had strong links with Junkers and nazis, and it never did a real come back. It's a bit like those guys who on week ends dress like medieval knights, and re-enact jousts and pageants. Creative Anachronism.

And when you quote Robert Heinlein ('an armed society is a polite society'), give him his due.

[Aldroud]

And when you quote Robert Heinlein ('an armed society is a polite society'), give him his due.

Hmm, didn't hear it from him. Actually heard it at the Harley ralley in Sturgis. Someone was commenting on how nice everyone was, someone else chimed in with that as the reason.

[Hendryk]

An Armed Society is a Polite Society
They must be the epitome of civility in Iraq then :p

[Max Sinister]

@Aldroud: The thing about the Mensur in Germany is true. It started in the 19th century IIRC, was very popular during the Second Empire, later declined, but is around even today (although there are few, and they're considered rightists or even fascists or at least weirdos by the majority). IMO it should die. Mark Twain wrote about it in his stories about Europe. And it's a fact that the students were proud to have scars in the face, so the doctors had to do a bad job, so the scars would look even worse.

[MrP]

An Armed Society is a Polite Society

On a vaguely related note, sorry for unreasonably flying off the handle at you last week. Lack of sleep, I think it was. :o

[basileus]

No swords - today dueling would be bare hands and feet, to KO or submission.

[Tielhard]

1) Student dueling still goes on at Heidleberg and at least one other German University. I have no idea if it is legal or just tolerated (in a similar fashion to the way prostitution is treated in some places).
2) There is at least one country in Europe where dueling is legal it was in last week's Independent. May be Sweden?

[Wozza]

1) Student dueling still goes on at Heidleberg and at least one other German University. I have no idea if it is legal or just tolerated (in a similar fashion to the way prostitution is treated in some places).
2) There is at least one country in Europe where dueling is legal it was in last week's Independent. May be Sweden?

What do they use to duel with?

I know two people who had a duel with swords, although it was only "to the pinking,"

[Satyrane]

I suppose an analogy might be extreme abusive sexual practice. There was some debate a few years back in the UK about the legality of consensual S&M in which one or both partners suffer actual bodily harm. (IIRC it's still illegal in the UK even if both sides are entirely in their right minds and consent to it.)

I daresay the same law would apply to voluntary duelling societies: no matter how many waivers you signed, you'd still be liable for ABH or other offences.

Incidentally, I was a second at a mock-duel at uni. Two members of the fencing club met at dawn on King's Bridge and played twelve hits (in full gear, so no physical danger). The loser bought us all breakfast - was good fun! :)

[Aldroud]

On a vaguely related note, sorry for unreasonably flying off the handle at you last week. Lack of sleep, I think it was. :o

Ummm...okay. Don't remember, so all is forgiven. I don't take internet debates that seriously, so nub worries mate. :D

Hell, I've been on a Vicadin and OxyCodon diet for the last week myself. Makes the head a little fuzzy.

[Cockroach]

Well as mentioned by others German students are still at it today (By the way LordKalvan I was under the impression the Nazis initally tried to stop it before deciding to tolerate it).
Also given traditional Duelling persisted in Italy at least until the 1930s it is well and truelly possible for it to continue to the current day.

[Narratio]

Fom what I can see, western societies still do duel, but they do it with lawyers, not swords.

Pre WW2 there were just about zero "frivolous" law suits. Now days people reach for a lawyer and sue over the colors a drain pipe is painted, they trip over thier feet etc.

Seems to be a modern equivalent of dueling over 'insults to ones honor'.

[LordKalvan]

I suppose an analogy might be extreme abusive sexual practice. There was some debate a few years back in the UK about the legality of consensual S&M in which one or both partners suffer actual bodily harm. (IIRC it's still illegal in the UK even if both sides are entirely in their right minds and consent to it.)

I daresay the same law would apply to voluntary duelling societies: no matter how many waivers you signed, you'd still be liable for ABH or other offences.

Incidentally, I was a second at a mock-duel at uni. Two members of the fencing club met at dawn on King's Bridge and played twelve hits (in full gear, so no physical danger). The loser bought us all breakfast - was good fun! :)
In a way you're right: just to bring the analogy to an extreme, no one can kill someone else with impunity, even if the succumbent gave a waiver. OTOH, I would assume that police would have to automatically prosecute (or whatever the word is) only if the prognosis of the wounded party is beyond a certain length. To make another analogy, if a girl scratch another during a scuff, she has not to be tried automatically (unless there is a sworn complaint from the injured party). Therefore duelling would be theoretically illegal, but in practice might be tolerated. Exactly like prostitution.

[LordKalvan]

Well as mentioned by others German students are still at it today (By the way LordKalvan I was under the impression the Nazis initally tried to stop it before deciding to tolerate it).
Also given traditional Duelling persisted in Italy at least until the 1930s it is well and truelly possible for it to continue to the current day.

Probably you are right: Nazis were not supporters of the Mensur in their own time (it was mostly a practice favored by Junkers, and aristocrats. Or upper bourgeoisie who wanted to put on airs). However, after the war it took a rightist connotation, and was appropriated by neo-nazis.

Duelling in Italy effectively ended before WW1; like in Germany, fascist party in Italy was not in favor of an aristocratic practice (even if Mussolini himself - in his editor persona - had a few duels in the early 1900s). Even then, it was mostly a formalised performance, always to first blood (even if accidents can always happen). After WW2, it is completely non-existent (I will not accept to include under duelling a fist-cuff or even a knife fight outside of a disco or a pub)

[LordKalvan]

Hmm, didn't hear it from him. Actually heard it at the Harley ralley in Sturgis. Someone was commenting on how nice everyone was, someone else chimed in with that as the reason.
If I remember right, it was said in Starship Troopers (possible alternatives might be Time Enough for Love or Farnham's Freehold), but it is 100% Robert Heinlein. Anyway I was joking :p

[EvolvedSaurian]

Fom what I can see, western societies still do duel, but they do it with lawyers, not swords.

Pre WW2 there were just about zero "frivolous" law suits. Now days people reach for a lawyer and sue over the colors a drain pipe is painted, they trip over thier feet etc.

Seems to be a modern equivalent of dueling over 'insults to ones honor'.

Swords would be more civilized.:cool:

[EvolvedSaurian]

If I remember right, it was said in Starship Troopers (possible alternatives might be Time Enough for Love or Farnham's Freehold), but it is 100% Robert Heinlein. Anyway I was joking :p

I'll have to read through Starship Troopers again. Or go to wikiquote.

[Derek Jackson]

In any Juristiction in which there is no specific law relating to dueling then I think folk would get away with it. Surely each party would be able to plead self defence.

[Tielhard]

It would appear that dueling is not illegal under English law. Wounding someone or killing them is!

[KJM]

Lincoln was challenged to a duel. He at first specified the place as a cow pasture and the weapons as cowpies.
Suppose the challenger had accepted that?

[Steffen]

What do they use to duel with?

I know two people who had a duel with swords, although it was only "to the pinking,"

Wikipedia explains academic fencing quite well:

"Academic fencing

Academic fencing or Mensur fencing is the traditional kind of fencing practiced by some student corporations (Studentenverbindungen) in Germany, Austria, Flanders and Switzerland.

Technique

Academic fencing differs considerably from non-academic fencing. The participants, or Paukanten, use heavy sharp sabres, the so-called Mensurschläger (or simply Schläger; the plural form is identical to the singular form) and are protected by a chainmail shirt and gauntlets, padding on the throat and right arm, and steel goggles with a nose guard. They fence at arm's length and stand more or less immobile, attempting to hit the unprotected areas of their opponent's face and head. Flinching or dodging is not allowed, the goal being less to avoid injury than to endure it stoically. A doctor is generally present to attend to injuries and abort the fight if necessary.

The scar resulting from a hit is called a Schmiss (German for a "smite"), or Renommierschmiss (bragging scar), and was regarded as a badge of honor: a form of ritual scarification up to the first half of the 20th century. Wounds were typically sewn up rather crudely then, in order to provoke scarring. Today the fencers prefer the work of thoracic surgeons and other physicians, successfully avoiding unnecessary scars.


Academic fencing in Germany was temporarily abolished, along with the Studentenverbindungen, during the Third Reich, but today it is still practised by hundreds of traditional Studentenverbindung fraternities."


I know a couple of guys who do it, no big deal although I wouldn´t do it myself.
And it´s more of a ritualised sporting event they eagerly train for, the connection of with duels in the classic sense is very indirect.

[Satyrane]

In any Juristiction in which there is no specific law relating to dueling then I think folk would get away with it. Surely each party would be able to plead self defence.Under UK law, at least, self-defence only applies in very specific circumstances: IIRC you must have an honestly held belief that you or another person are in immediate danger of physical harm, and you must prove that your response was unpremeditated and proportionate to that danger. Two people fighting with swords might have a job convincing the police of this! :)

Carrying firearms or uncovered blades above a certain length is also illegal.