Jamestown goes the way of Roanoke

[reddie]

Okay, so John Rolfe's trepidations about marrying a "heathen woman" get the better of him, and that crucial English-Algonquian link is never formed...and in 1614 the miserable residents of Jamestown are massacred by the Powhatans.

What happens next? The Virginia Company still claims the land between the 35th and 39th parallels...do the English try, try again? Turn the whole damn thing into a Crown Colony, or sell it off and cut their losses? Is any European power of the early 17th century willing to take such a territory by force?

[EvolvedSaurian]

The Spanish would certainly be willing. The French and the Dutch may as well, I'm not sure.

[reddie]

The Spanish would certainly be willing. The French and the Dutch may as well, I'm not sure.

Well, the Spanish technically still claimed the land, although out of the chunk of "Virginia" claimed, only had settlements in Florida. The thing that allowed the English to place colonies in this part of NA is simply that it was too large for the Spaniards to police. The French also had at least one colony in this general region, in the area of South Carolina ("Charlesfort").

[EvolvedSaurian]

So the French are a possibility. Were the Dutch still fighting off the Spanish hammer?

Some of the wackier ones: Sweden, Denmark-Norway, Scotland, Ireland, Basque, Muslims, Bretons, Poland or German would all be very interesting.

[reddie]

So the French are a possibility. Were the Dutch still fighting off the Spanish hammer?

Some of the wackier ones: Sweden, Denmark-Norway, Scotland, Ireland, Basque, Muslims, Bretons, Poland or German would all be very interesting.

I actually thought about having the Ottomans buy the charter from the British, and I somehow feel the British might actually be willing to sell to them--but I'm not sure the sultan of the time would be willing to commit such resources to a colonization scheme.

I do think the Dutch/Spanish were still going at it in 1614; I'll need to look it up...and I'll also search for some other likely powers who might buy the charter...

[reddie]

I also just remembered that the central European situation is about to blow up in 1619 (I think) with the start of the Thirty Year's War...maybe some minor Protestant nobleman somewhere is thinking outside of the box...

[EvolvedSaurian]

I also just remembered that the central European situation is about to blow up in 1619 (I think) with the start of the Thirty Year's War...maybe some minor Protestant nobleman somewhere is thinking outside of the box...

Maybe a Hugenot or Calvinist colony?

[MrP]

I actually thought about having the Ottomans buy the charter from the British, and I somehow feel the British might actually be willing to sell to them--but I'm not sure the sultan of the time would be willing to commit such resources to a colonization scheme.

I remember Abdul running into problems once because he didn't feel that it was likely for the Ottomans to colonise far away. Something to do with a lack of widespread dissent. Would there not be a problem getting any ships through Gibraltar, anyway?

[EvolvedSaurian]

I remember Abdul running into problems once because he didn't feel that it was likely for the Ottomans to colonise far away. Something to do with a lack of widespread dissent. Would there not be a problem getting any ships through Gibraltar, anyway?

Some sultan or vizier could see how powerful and wealthy the Spanish are getting from their territories and try for some.

As for Gibraltar, perhaps they could go through North Africa or even start a colony on the Cape or Madagascar as a stop off point. They could find a way.

[Faeelin]

So the French are a possibility. Were the Dutch still fighting off the Spanish hammer?


Sure; there was a truce between 1609 and 1621, with the war then resuming until 1648. And they had New Netherlands in OTL.

I'd suggest that, in the late 1610s, they settle the Pilgrims in the region, and then the tobacco trade takes off.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Sure; there was a truce between 1609 and 1621, with the war then resuming until 1648. And they had New Netherlands in OTL.

I'd suggest that, in the late 1610s, they settle the Pilgrims in the region, and then the tobacco trade takes off.

7 years until Nieuw-Nederland.

Would the Pilgrims allow/approve of tobacco?

[Faeelin]

7 years until Nieuw-Nederland.

Would the Pilgrims allow/approve of tobacco?

I don't see why not; they used it in OTL.

They might have qualms over slavery, but given its presence in OTL New England that seems unlikely.

[Martinus Paduei]

Some sultan or vizier could see how powerful and wealthy the Spanish are getting from their territories and try for some.

As for Gibraltar, perhaps they could go through North Africa or even start a colony on the Cape or Madagascar as a stop off point. They could find a way.

Now that's an interesting one. Ottomans in South Africa and a likely drop off point from there in the Americas could be Argentina.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Now that's an interesting one. Ottomans in South Africa and a likely drop off point from there in the Americas could be Argentina.

Ottomans on the pampas. Now that's an image!

[EvolvedSaurian]

A rough map, ignore OTL borders:

[reddie]

I don't see why not; they used it in OTL.

They might have qualms over slavery, but given its presence in OTL New England that seems unlikely.

That might give us a reversal of the Roundhead-Cavalier distribution in OTL--Puritans in the south, cavaliers up north. Hmm.

Actually, that's almost as interesting an idea as trans-Atlantic Ottomans. The ancestors of the Southrons of OTL develop with minimal slavery, while the Puritans may well go the plantation route, depending on developing markets...

The Puritans will spawn innumerable dissenters and social reformers. Since these guys aren't likely to see their religiously-based ideas spread up north, they may try to set up "New Jerusalems" out in the wilderness, and guess they would have as good a chance of succeeding as Rhode Island did...

[Magnificate]

Some of the wackier ones: Sweden, Denmark-Norway, Scotland, Ireland, Basque, Muslims, Bretons, Poland or German would all be very interesting.
Those three are very interesting choices. Maybe even joint Swedish-Polish pursuase? (forced by Sweden, after subduing Poland in earlier war; or maybe some second step towards an union (first step being recognicion of polish monarch on swedish throne)).
Can you imagine New Pomerania or more probably New Crown Colony, as it could be named? ;)

[Tocomocho]

Some sultan or vizier could see how powerful and wealthy the Spanish are getting from their territories and try for some.

As for Gibraltar, perhaps they could go through North Africa or even start a colony on the Cape or Madagascar as a stop off point. They could find a way.
Now that's an interesting one. Ottomans in South Africa and a likely drop off point from there in the Americas could be Argentina.

There is an easier way: Ottomans and their Algerian allies conquest the weak Moroccan kingdoms at the end of 16th century. Then, Ottoman sultans decide to built a new navy in Morocco (may be around the great port of Sale) and attack the Spanish/Portuguese trade galleons, and later siege the Canary Islands, Ceuta, Tangiers and Melilla, but they resist.

The following is send Barbary pirates to the Caribbean, take some islands and attack the Silver ports in New Granada and Mexico.

[Calgacus]

while an earlier pod might allow some differences, the 1614 ottomans would no way be allowed to settle the new world - remember the pope granted the world to spain and portugal - they find it bad enugh that some heretics are in it, but imagine the reaction to muslims in america? also, logistically, they'd find it impossible without some serious supply/naval resources coming through an atlantic port. and while nominally the ottomans controlled morocco at some points, it was in the same way the chinese controlled thailand, vietnam etc, and persia controlled central asia - more a question of spheres of influence - they could never have colonised through there, especially not with adversaries with such great advantages.

[Max Sinister]

For some unclear reasons, the Arabs never sent a ship to America, although they had Morocco for centuries, or tried to sail down the African coast to find a new way to India (ok, they had no need for that).

[Umbral]

Weren't America rediscovered by Colombus because the Arabs were cutting off trade with India? They may have felt no need for the trade of the americas and by the time the other possibilities became apparent the Spanish and Portugese were firmly established?

But the amounts of gold pulled in by Spain early should have tempted them...

Perhaps their ships were not up to it? But they did well in the Indian ocean...

[Fire God]

The French also had at least one colony in this general region, in the area of South Carolina ("Charlesfort").
But by 1600, Charlesfort and Fort Caroline in Florida would have already been abandonned. The former from lack of supplies, and the later from Spanish troops garrisoned in St. Augustine killing all but the Catholics.

[Gladi]

So the French are a possibility. Were the Dutch still fighting off the Spanish hammer?

Some of the wackier ones: Sweden, Denmark-Norway, Scotland, Ireland, Basque, Muslims, Bretons, Poland or German would all be very interesting.

Bright day
You wanted wacky? Comenius was asked to teach at certain North American university. OTL he refused, but what if he accepts, and find the idea of virgin continent tantalising? Thousands of affluent citizens were forced to leave Bohemia. The colony failed repeatedly, and Anne is family afterall, so English may be willing to give it up... :eek: :p