The Rise of the N.S.F.G.R.

[Kaiser James I]

What if the White Forces in the Russian Civil War triumphed over the Red Bolshevik Forces in the early to mid 1920s? What if Russian leaders like Baron Roman Nicolaus von Ungern-Sternberg, Admiral Aleksandr Vasiliyevich Kolchak, General Aleksei Maksimovich Kaledin, General Nikolai Nikolaevich Yudenich, and Lieutenant General Anton Ivanovich Denikin then set up a Fascist Russian State? What would be the consequences in World history if such a State like the National Socialist Federation of Greater Russia was created?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_civil_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Ungern_von_Sternberg

[MerryPrankster]

Firstly, I would imagine a victorious White government would have to put down Ungern von Sternberg since he was a complete psychotic.

Also, why on Earth would they establish a National Socialist government? Methinks they'd try to restore the monarchy or call a Constituent Assembly, not establish a government based on an ideology that did not exist yet.

[Justin Pickard]

Okay, here's how I see it...

I think that the defeat of Bolshevik forces in the RCW would simply herald the start of another chapter in the conflict. The White forces were united by one thing: a common enemy. Without that, I think that fragmentation would have been inevitable, as the various armies begin to squabble amongst themselves. Monarchist turning against Republican,; Liberal against Reactionary.

In the unlikely circumstance of co-operation between the various White forces, I think that a Russian constituational monarchy would have probably been the only acceptable compromise.

If, however, the fighting went on, then I can easily see some kind of strong authority figure eventually emerging from the chaos - but a National Socialist with Federalist leanings? I think that 'socialism' would have been seen as something of a dirty word by this point, too intrinsically linked to the Bolshevik menance to be acceptable, whilst Federalism isn't unlikely to appease the threats of provincial secession. What you'd find here is probably some kind of conservative Nationalist Centralism, perhaps with pseudo-fascist leanings, but nowhere near as full-on as the Nazis.

Just an idea. I might do a short story or two in such a setting at some point in the future, as this is an area of personal interest, but I'd need to free up some time, and I'm unwilling to totally abandon the Anti-Habsburg project. Also, my military knowledge is a bit useless.

[Kaiser James I]

Maybe a constitutional monarchy would be created if the war was won early enough. If, however, the civil war continued into the mid to late 20s, a Fascist State could possibly be created along to lines of Fascist Italy if not Nazi Germany. Would a Fascist Russia ally with Germany and Italy in WWII? What would be the consequences?

[Justin Pickard]

Yes, I think that Fascist Italy would be a better analogy for this Russia.

I don't know whether there would even be a Fascist Germany in this timeline. One of the reasons for the rise of the Nazi Party in OTL was the threat of the spead of Communism. In TTL, there is no longer that threat.

[Kaiser James I]

So, would WWII happen at all? Or would it happen differently?

[Kaiser James I]

Yes, I think that Fascist Italy would be a better analogy for this Russia.

I don't know whether there would even be a Fascist Germany in this timeline. One of the reasons for the rise of the Nazi Party in OTL was the threat of the spead of Communism. In TTL, there is no longer that threat.

So maybe instead of the N.S.F.G.R., a better title for that anlogy would be the Social Fascist Republic of Greater Russia(S.F.R.G.R.).

[Justin Pickard]

So maybe instead of the N.S.F.G.R., a better title for that anlogy would be the Social Fascist Republic of Greater Russia(S.F.R.G.R.).

Drop the Social altogether. And Fascist states don't, on the whole, like to admit to being Fascist.

Throw in something about Nationalism.

How about ... the National Republic of Greater Russia, or the Greater Russian Nationalist Republic?

[MarkA]

I would think they would every bit as nasty as the Nazis. You do not need an ideology to be racist or homophobic or mysogenist or to hold any other obnoxious belief and most of these people were just that. No special name would result just the Russian Empire would do.

It is true that the White generals held different political beliefs ranging from slightly democratic to lunatic rightwing. Likely result would be a fragmentation of the Russian state into small mutually hostile warlord domains. Of course a strongman would also be likely so a unified state under authoritarian rule would result.

The Russian people would yearn for peace and stability so a strongman uniting the state under a personal rule would be the most likely. The most likely belief system of such an individual would be extreme right wing views coupled with autocratic rule.

[Scarecrow]

well there were cases of the White Russian forces in the RCW setting up anti-Jewish pogroms, or at least shooting Jews.

[Hapsburg]

Drop the Social altogether. And Fascist states don't, on the whole, like to admit to being Fascist.

Throw in something about Nationalism.

How about ... the National Republic of Greater Russia, or the Greater Russian Nationalist Republic?
Or why not throw away the trappings of dipolmatic officiality to the wind, and call the nation simply, "Russia"? Considering the nationalist aims of it, and the ambiguity of the government (as you said, fascist states don't make it known in thier name, and it's not a republic nor a socialist state), it would be appropriate. Hell, Germany during the 2nd reich, Weimar, and 3rd reich eras was simply called "The German Realm", or "Deutsches Reich" in official terms. An extremist ultranationalist Russian state would do a similar thing, calling the country officially "Russia" or, "The State of Russia".

[Redbeard]

A fascist Russian state would have to contain something very Russian and be at least as different from Germany and Italy, as Germany and Italy were different.

I imagine something with a lot of Russian folkore, Orthodox Church and perhaps even urging back to pre Peter the Great times...and lots of vodka!

In efficiency it will probably be more like Italy than Germany, anyway long beards and vodka doesn't go well with industry. Jews and other ethnic minorities will have a very hard time, and minor neighbors ought to be nerrvous if without allies.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

[Kaiser James I]

Drop the Social altogether. And Fascist states don't, on the whole, like to admit to being Fascist.

Throw in something about Nationalism.

How about ... the National Republic of Greater Russia, or the Greater Russian Nationalist Republic?

A Nationalist Republic of Russia sounds about right. China under Chiang Kai-shek was called Nationalist China, right? Then why not a Nationalist Russia of some sort?:D :cool:

[Wendell]

Drop the Social altogether. And Fascist states don't, on the whole, like to admit to being Fascist.

Throw in something about Nationalism.

How about ... the National Republic of Greater Russia, or the Greater Russian Nationalist Republic?
How about the Sovereign Union of All Russias?

[Kaiser James I]

Or a Nationalist Union of All Russias.:D :cool:

[Wendell]

Or a Nationalist Union of All Russias.:D :cool:
Being nationalistic is a given.

[MerryPrankster]

If the Whites break down and fight each other after the Bolsheviks are defeated, could a victorious warlord restore the monarchy but maintain all the power himself?

We might have a Russian Shogunate, although I really doubt they'd refer to the state as such. It'd be a Russian Empire with most of the power invested in the "Master of the Horse" or whatever the chief military official of St. Petersburg was called.

[AMBOMB]

The Mensheviks weren't fascists.

[Superdude]

Have communists rise to power in Germany and Italy, and have Fascists rise to power in Russia.

I think thats an interesting idea. Anybody else?

[Kaiser James I]

Have communists rise to power in Germany and Italy, and have Fascists rise to power in Russia.

I think thats an interesting idea. Anybody else?

Germany could have gone either way and so could Russia, but how could Italy go communist? Who would be the communist leader?

[Hapsburg]

Germany could have gone either way and so could Russia, but how could Italy go communist? Who would be the communist leader?
Well, Mussolini was originally a Socialist. If he keeps with that ideology, but still manages to get his popular support, Italy could become a semi-socialist state.

[Superdude]

Well, we have Mussolini die off in the war. Communists were pretty powerful in Italy before Mussolini. I can see them taking over.

[Kaiser James I]

Firstly, I would imagine a victorious White government would have to put down Ungern von Sternberg since he was a complete psychotic.


Nothing new there. Weren't leaders like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao complete psychotics? That didn't stop them from seizing power, right?

[Kaiser James I]

Well, we have Mussolini die off in the war. Communists were pretty powerful in Italy before Mussolini. I can see them taking over.

Yes, maybe the communist Partito Comunista Italiano(PCI) under Amadeo Bordiga and Antonio Gramsci would take over and create an Italian Communist Republic. And if Hitler died in the war and then Germany went communist too, then Italy, Germany, and Russia could form a United Communist Axis to face the Allies of Britain, France, America, and Japan in WWII. What do you think?:D :cool:

[Justin Pickard]

Yes, maybe the communist Partito Comunista Italiano(PCI) under Amadeo Bordiga and Antonio Gramsci would take over and create an Italian Communist Republic. And if Hitler died in the war and then Germany went communist too, then Italy, Germany, and Russia could form a United Communist Axis to face the Allies of Britain, France, America, and Japan in WWII. What do you think?:D :cool:

I thought we had assumed that Russia ended up as a Nationalist dictatorship.

If so, then I can easily see an Italian / German Socialist-Communist 'Mitteleurope' facing off against the Russians, who would then call on Britain and France to contain the Red Threat. I do think, however, that this war would remain European in focus, and that the Socialist-Communist 'Mitteleurope' would be nowhere as dictatorial as Bolshevik Russia, with their democratic apparatus surviving more or less intact.

[Kaiser James I]

And when would countries like Japan or America get involved? Or would they?;)

[MerryPrankster]

Nothing new there. Weren't leaders like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao complete psychotics? That didn't stop them from seizing power, right?

The complete psycho was isolated in the Far East. The leader of the victorious Whites would likely be Deniken, Kolchak, or (less likely) Iudenich.

The war would be fought and won in western Russia and then it's time to clean house in the east. Ungern-Sternberg and the Japanese and their Cossack allies would be on the receiving end of some major pain.

[Superdude]

Yeah, but since the whites are exhausted and seem more practical, maybe they just let Sternberg live?

You know how badass that would be?

Im sure you have heard of the game Iron Storm?

[Kaiser James I]

That's exactely the game I was thinking of when I created this post.:D A new Nationalist Russian government would need all the help and strength it could get. Ungern-Sternberg with his Japanese and Cossack allies would be a great assistance that Deniken, Kolchak, and the others couldn't turn down.:cool:

[Max Sinister]

Those were the rightists, but what about anti-Bolshevik leftists and liberals? There were the Kadyets (liberal democrats), Mensheviks, Social revolutionaries...

[MerryPrankster]

That's exactely the game I was thinking of when I created this post.:D A new Nationalist Russian government would need all the help and strength it could get. Ungern-Sternberg with his Japanese and Cossack allies would be a great assistance that Deniken, Kolchak, and the others couldn't turn down.:cool:

The Japanese wanted to annex Vladivostok and other parts of Holy Russia, with the Cossacks as their local minions.

They're so going down, no matter who wins the Civil War.

Ungern-Sternberg might be able to save his behind by helping fight the Japanese, although I think he's not going to be left in power at the very least.

[Kaiser James I]

Those were the rightists, but what about anti-Bolshevik leftists and liberals? There were the Kadyets (liberal democrats), Mensheviks, Social revolutionaries...

The right-wingers would probably send them to the labor gulags in Siberia.:( :mad: The camps of the dreaded Glavnoe Upravlenie Lagerei. Remember as the Nazis said, "Arbeit macht frei".:cool:

[Hapsburg]

Yeah, but since the whites are exhausted and seem more practical, maybe they just let Sternberg live?

You know how badass that would be?
The Russian nationalist government might keep him around for a little while, as like a puppet demagogue or something, but eventually, they'd assassinate him. He was too insane to be kept alive, he'd be a danger to a nationalist russia.

[Kaiser James I]

Much of the same things could have been said about Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin.:mad:

[Kaiser James I]

Don't you think so?;)

[The Mists Of Time]

MFrom what I've read her so far, my sense is that after the experience with the Bolsheviks, socialism would have become something of a dirty word, a bad experience best not tried again.

I think The Russians would have restored in some form the Monarchy, but as a constitutional monarchy, probably patterned very much like Great Brittain, not unlike The UK today.

With some of the scenarios being put forth here it might have been much more difficult for someone like Adolf Hitler to get the kind of total power and control he did get. Germany and Italy might have only had a modified form of socialism. It might have been possible to avoid WWII in Europe or for WWII in Europe to have been smaller than in OTL.

But I don't think WWII in The Pacific could have been avoided. With no or a less intense WWII in Europe, I think Japanese agression would have reached a point where the world at large felt it had to act to stop that Japanese agression, so we would have probably had a much larger WWII in The Pacific.

[Kaiser James I]

Would Hitler have attacked a Czarist Russia? I don't really think so.:confused:

[Derek Jackson]

IN OTL Communist parties from 1920 to at least 1960 were primarily pro Soviet Parties.

They could not have existed in that form absent the Soviet Union.

Fear of Boshevism was a factor in the Nazi triumph in 1933, but I do not know if it was essential.

As I understand it Hitler had a view of Slavs as inherantly inferior. He might still have gone for Russia. On the other hand it would have been easier for the West to have allied with Russia from the emergence of Hitler.


So WW2 roughly as it happened is possible but less likely.


A radical left GErmany fighting a far right Germany is another possibility. Would Britain and France just watch such a war?

[Kaiser James I]

Yes, but the Czar would have made sure to crush all remnants of Boshevism in Russia in the 1920s. And it is that and not Czarism that Hitler feared.:mad: :eek:

[Burton K Wheeler]

For an excellent Fascist Russia timeline, check out "Fire Eagle, Snow Bear" from the old board. It's not complete, but there's been some interest in reviving it.

Germany Goes East 1914
http://www.alternatehistory.net/discus/messages/4/1982.html

Postwar Blues.
http://www.alternatehistory.net/discus/messages/4/2067.html

The Dark Czar
http://www.alternatehistory.net/discus/messages/4/2211.html

War of Vengence 1
http://www.alternatehistory.net/discus/messages/4/2486.html

War of Vengence 2
http://www.alternatehistory.net/discus/messages/4/2651.html

[srv fan]

Would Hitler have attacked a Czarist Russia? I don't really think so.

Theres been a lot of debate on the issue, with one side saying that Hitler was first and foremost an anti-Communist, and so would not have attacked a Czarist Russia.

The other side says that Hitler's foreign policy was more motivated by thw well-established German Lebensraum theory- take over Eastern Europe, kick the Slavs out, and presto, plenty of room for Hans and Dieter. The dynamic had been around for at least a thousand years before Hitler, with the Teutonic Knights, conquest of Lithuania, Poland, etc. Obviously, I'm not saying Germans had always wanted to commit the Holocaust and such, simply that there had always been a strong German desire for eastern territorial expansion, and that German states had often acted on this desire. Combine this with Hitler being absolutely batshit insane, and genuinely believing it was Germany's national mission to eradicate lesser races, and I think it is pretty clear Hitler was going to head East sooner or later, regardless of Russia's government.

I believe in the second view, in case you couldnt tell :D

[Kaiser James I]

I really don't know. It's kinda hard to call it either way.:cool:

[Kaiser James I]

Don't you think?

[Kaiser James I]

Yes, yes, right?

[Wendell]

I happen to think that Hitler would invade a Czarist Russia at some point. Depending on who is actually in charge of said Russia, such a campaign may be delayed.

[Kaiser James I]

What reason would he have for doing so? More German Lebensraum?

[Kaiser James I]

How would Hitler sell the invasion to the German people? What reason?

[Superdude]

Saving the world from Slav inundation. He would just replace communist with Slavic, and with the likely Pan-Slavic revanchism in Russia, you could expect Russia to be really aggressive in the long term, especially if they have quasi-fascist leanings.

[Kaiser James I]

Hmmmm..It could work.:)

[galanx]

A Right-wing Russian Nationalist Government is going to be pretty anti-Semitic, especially if it's blaming Bolshevism on the Jews. The Depression causes the collapse of international investment in Russia, which has been picking up in the late 20s. Blame is laid on the International Jewish Bolshevik/Finance-Capitalist Conspiracy; pogroms cause massive refugee influxes into Germany, helping Hitler's rise - "The Slavs breed these Jews like rats and them send them like the plague to overrun us."

[Max Sinister]

The Jews might go to other places but Germany though. Still difficult.

[galanx]

The Jews might go to other places but Germany though. Still difficult.

Yes, but a significant number would end up there. Poland would still be anti-Semitic, maybe even more so with Russia being the way it is.

No-one else would be interested in taking them in, same as OTL- you'd have a lot more trying to reach Palestine, but Germany is closer- and still the Weimar Republic.

Personally, I think a non-Communist Russia butterflies Hitler away.

[Max Sinister]

Yes... but there's still a big difference between "traditional" antisemitism and planning a holocaust...

[Kaiser James I]

A Right-wing Russian Nationalist Government is going to be pretty anti-Semitic, especially if it's blaming Bolshevism on the Jews. The Depression causes the collapse of international investment in Russia, which has been picking up in the late 20s. Blame is laid on the International Jewish Bolshevik/Finance-Capitalist Conspiracy; pogroms cause massive refugee influxes into Germany, helping Hitler's rise - "The Slavs breed these Jews like rats and them send them like the plague to overrun us."

The Jews might go to other places but Germany though. Still difficult.

Well, nationalistic or not, Hitler would still make some excuse to take Russia, a Jewish reason if not a Communist one. Hitler hated Slavs as well as Jews, so the existence of a Fascist or Nationalist Russia might not matter.

I wonder, though, if the Nazis didn't kill them outright that the Jews would have been deported instead. I read somewhere that one plan with what to do with them was to expel them either to Tanzania(set up as a German Colonial Protectorate) or Madagascar(taken or bought from the French and used as a Territorial Jewish Reservation). Either way would expel them from Europe but keep them under tight Nazi control. Their hard labor would benefit the Third Reich and there would be no need to kill them.:confused: :mad:

[Sgt. Pepper]

maybe instead of Hitler, some other slightly more sane leader takes over and manages to gain Austria, the Sudetenland, etc...then sits on it instead of going all out...in the meantime, Russia builds up and blitzkriegs Poland and Germany? :D:D:D

[Hapsburg]

Yeah...maybe someone who is simply a nationalist/populist instead of an antisemitic crazyman...that might put Germany in a better position whenever a conflict may come. Additionally, Jews fleeing Russia might find safe haven in a more Jew-friendly Germany, which might circumvent or in the very least, postpone the whole Arab-Israeli series of wars.

[PaleHorseRiding]

A person like Hitler would have come to power because of all the right wing groups in germany preaching pan germanism and anti Jew hatred and Slaughter the slavs. There was a reason it was called NATIONAL SOCIALIST

AS for Russia I think the civil war would have went on and on and it would have been carved up more u would see alot more areas break away.

[Sgt. Pepper]

A person like Hitler would have come to power because of all the right wing groups in germany preaching pan germanism and anti Jew hatred and Slaughter the slavs. There was a reason it was called NATIONAL SOCIALIST

AS for Russia I think the civil war would have went on and on and it would have been carved up more u would see alot more areas break away.

so how about a nationalistic leftist group arise in Germany that does the same thing...but is good to Jews and Slavs...

even if areas broke away, they could be conquered again once new leadership is installed in Moscow...Russians do tend to see their borders as being rather fluid...

[htgriffin]

Yes... but there's still a big difference between "traditional" antisemitism and planning a holocaust...

Given the scale/severity of various progroms I suspect that was mostly technological.

HTG

[Kaiser James I]

maybe instead of Hitler, some other slightly more sane leader takes over and manages to gain Austria, the Sudetenland, etc...then sits on it instead of going all out...in the meantime, Russia builds up and blitzkriegs Poland and Germany? :D:D:D

Yeah...maybe someone who is simply a nationalist/populist instead of an antisemitic crazyman...that might put Germany in a better position whenever a conflict may come. Additionally, Jews fleeing Russia might find safe haven in a more Jew-friendly Germany, which might circumvent or in the very least, postpone the whole Arab-Israeli series of wars.

Yes, and then maybe an anti-communist World War II would break out earlier in the 1930s? Would then Britain, France, Italy, and America ally with Germany against the Soviets? How bad could it get?

[Max Sinister]

Such a coalition certainly would defeat the Soviets. Germany (+ other Axis members) was bad enough, and they had to fight Britain and later the US at the same time. A grand western super-coalition would win, although millions would have to die for it (more on the Soviet side).

[Kaiser James I]

And then eternal Peace would reign throughout the World?:D :cool:

[Sgt. Pepper]

Yes, and then maybe an anti-communist World War II would break out earlier in the 1930s? Would then Britain, France, Italy, and America ally with Germany against the Soviets? How bad could it get?

Hitler actually thought that Britain and the US would "see reason" and back him in a war against communism...but the west saw him as being more a threat...with a different, less agressive leader at the helm, maybe we could see such an alliance...though drop Italy, Italy would have nothing to gain...also drop the US, too much isolationism

In order for the alliance to happen though, Britain and France would have to be certain that Germany doesn't plan to annex large portions of Russia after the war...

If it does come off though, say goodbye to Stalin...

[Kaiser James I]

And what about Japan? Japan might come in to annex the provinces of eastern Russia.








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http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/3318/0037870ms8.jpg
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[Kaiser James I]

What do you think?

[ninebucks]

I don't think a 'compromise' was ever going to occur after the Russian Civil War, people wanted an extreme solution to their extreme problems, not any more weak compromises from squabbling politicians. If there was going to be a left wing Russia, it was going to be the Russia of Lenin and Stalin, likewise, if there was going to be a right wing Russia, it was going to be just as extreme.

As for the name: how about simply, The Rus'publika? Its to-the-point, it claims sovereignty over the entire geographically ambiguous Rus', not just Russia... although I'm not sure how keen Russian fascists would be to use a pun as their nation's official name...

[Homer]

Hitler actually thought that Britain and the US would "see reason" and back him in a war against communism...but the west saw him as being more a threat...with a different, less agressive leader at the helm, maybe we could see such an alliance...though drop Italy, Italy would have nothing to gain...also drop the US, too much isolationism

In order for the alliance to happen though, Britain and France would have to be certain that Germany doesn't plan to annex large portions of Russia after the war...

If it does come off though, say goodbye to Stalin...

The problem is Poland: Any German leader would try to get back the territories lost in 1918. And any Russian leader would try to get the territories lost to Poland as well. So Germany and Russia share the same goals: Poland. Hence to get Germany and the western powers together, you'd need a different solution for Poland then OTL's.

[Norman]

The problem is Poland: Any German leader would try to get back the territories lost in 1918. And any Russian leader would try to get the territories lost to Poland as well. So Germany and Russia share the same goals: Poland. Hence to get Germany and the western powers together, you'd need a different solution for Poland then OTL's.

How about a Polish "Protectorate", with Poland still nominally independent. Perhaps the threat from the East becomes so great that the Western powers determine that there is no hope at that moment for an independent Polish state. Although they don't like the solution, they see it as better than an aggressive expansion of the Russian state into Western Europe.

[plikma]

http://ib.frath.net/w/Russia

This happened in a AH called ill bethisad do you no it?

[Kaiser James I]

Okay? That makes sense.:confused:

[MarshalBraginsky]

For an excellent Fascist Russia timeline, check out "Fire Eagle, Snow Bear" from the old board. It's not complete, but there's been some interest in reviving it.

I was wondering if there is a map of this Russia with Gridenko as the Vozhd, and a flag as well? Also, I've started to read the old threads that were provided.

[Marc Pasquin]

What if the White Forces in the Russian Civil War triumphed over the Red Bolshevik Forces in the early to mid 1920s? What if Russian leaders like Baron Roman Nicolaus von Ungern-Sternberg, Admiral Aleksandr Vasiliyevich Kolchak, General Aleksei Maksimovich Kaledin, General Nikolai Nikolaevich Yudenich, and Lieutenant General Anton Ivanovich Denikin then set up a Fascist Russian State?

see here:

http://ib.frath.net/w/SNOR