View Full Version : Cyrus the younger defeats Artajerjes II in Cunaxa
May 29th, 2006, 08:13 AM
In Cunaxa in 401 BC one of the great battles of he history happened, the defeat of Cyrus the younger had important consecuences in the ancient history, Sparta has supported the formation of a mercenary corps of 10000 greeks in favour of Cyrus and this had agreed that if he won against his brother Artajerjes II he would return the libery to the ionian cities of Asia Minor (naturally under the protection of Sparta) if Cyrus had defeated Artajerjes II probably Sparta had had a better base of power with the addition of his prestige gaining the freedom of the ionian cities and positioning harmostas in Asia Minor and apart the neutrality of Persia governed by Cyrus that had been a friend of Sparta.
This is a timeline based in a victory of Cyrus the younger in Cunaxa.
401 BC Cyrus the younger defeats Artajerjes II in Cunaxa. A principal paper in the victory in the battle is made by the mercenary greek corps that refuse an attack against Cyrus the younger in which this almost lost his life and counteraatack against the field encampment of Artajerjes II. This is died at the the end of the battle.
Dionysius tyrant of Sicily after conquering Catania and Naxos in the years before 401 BC oblige to the city of Leontinos to surrender to him, the population of Leontinos will be sent to Siracusa.
Cyrus the younger enters in Babylon between the cheers of the population.
Athens annexes Eleusis.
Thebas establishes a regime olygarchic proteban in Oropo.
400 BC Cyrus the younger enters in Persepolis. The defeat of the satrap of Lydia and Caria Tisafernes in Asia Minor by the spartan general Clearchus ends the last resistence against Cyrus.
Sparta occupies Elide ending the Elide War (402-400 BC). Agesilaus II with the support of Lysander gets the throne of Sparta. Reinforcement of the imperialist politic of Sparta in Greece.
Is published the Lun-Yu the compilation in 20 volumes of the axioms of Confucius.
Dyonisius of Syracuse founds the city of Adrano in a strategic position to defend the Syracuse.
Carthage occupies the island of Malta.
399 BC Condemn and dead by poison of Socrates in Athens.
Pact of Babylon between Sparta and Persia. Cyrus III (Cyrus the younger) accords the independence of the ionian cities of Asia Minor. Sparta accords also to not support any rebellion against Cyrus III. In fact a tacit aliance between Sparta and Persia continues.
The spartans intervenes in Heraclea Traquinia in favour of the lacedemonian faction.
Messina and Reggio attacks Syracuse in an attempt to stop the rise of Dyonisius of Syracuse.
398 BC Cyrus III begin his campaign against Nepherite I the new pharaoh of Egypt.
The politic of Lysander and Agesilaus II of spartan dominion is reinforced with the sign of a pact between Syracuse and Sparta. the two cities accords to not intervenes against each other, secretly Dyonisius has agreed with the spartans the help of a mercenary corps commanded by Clearchus of 5000 men in the future campaign against Carthage. Sparta accords also more possible help tho the panhelenic campaign of Dyonisius in Sicily against Carthage.
The Ionian League is formed in Asia Minor, the members of the League accords mutual assistance and a pact of alliance with Sparta, in fact the Ionian League is under the protection of Sparta that has put harmostas in the principal cities of the League.
397 BC Beginning of the War against Carthage. Dyonisius counts with the support of greek mercenaries and a spartan corps commanded by Clearchus, also the spartan fleet under the command of Farax supports Dyonius. Dyonisius makes an authentic great campaign and with the help of the spartan fleet and Clearchus takes Motia and obligates to surrender the cities of Segesta, Entela and Halicias.
Licofron of Feras with the support of the spartan general Tibron begins a campaign against the Aleuadas of Larisa.
In Carthage Himilco mobilizes a massive army to confront the greek menace. He also receives the athenian Conon that exiled in Cyprus from the battle of Egospotamus was obliged to flee to Egypt by Cyrus III. From Egypt he goes to Carthage to offers his services against Dyonisius and the hated spartans.
June 1st, 2006, 04:18 AM
Sorry I didn't respond before. I have been quite busy lately, since I'm trying to finish my final assignment in my Dreamweaver class(a web pag creator if you don't know) and that's how I'm able to log on at school
I think I can see the implications. If Sparta remains the dominant Greek city for longer, perhaps we can see the cities of Magna Graecia hold off Rome?
June 1st, 2006, 04:16 PM
No problem and thanks for the feedback JP:)
You know we have a dual life: the alternate life in Ah.com and the real life in OTL (studies, job...).
Interesting assignment the Dreamweawer class, we have not so interesting themes as web creators in Spain schools:cool: I desire that this assignment could go very well for you:)
You are in part right Rome will have far more difficulties to get control of Magna Graecia in TTL, possibily Rome still to manage to control Central Italy but not the South Italy, but when arrive the moment of this confrontation it will be Syracuse and not Sparta the greek power that will oppose to Rome.
The problem with Sparta is the same as in OTL: the structure of the city was too much rigid with the principal power in the sector of the spartiates (the full citizens) that was the privileged sector of the population and the core of the organization in the army and in the society, but was a decreasing sector of population. Other sectors of the population was the periecos, the free people but without politic rights (only the spartiates had politic rights) other two sectors were hypomeiones that were old spartiates that because in some moment had not accomplished with the requisites to be spartiates (surely the not possibility of the apportation of the quote to the syssition -the food in a common table- that brings all the spartiates in a determined zone in a ceremony of brotherhood) and the neodamodes: the ilotes liberated but that as in the case of the periecos not had politic rights.
At last there was the great masse of the ilotes that was considered serfs of the Spartan state without freedom of movements and politic rights.
In this TTL although the spartan victories and better situation than in OTL make more difficult than in OTL the need of reforms, Lysander principally clearly see that if Sparta want to preserve his hegemony in Greece will need some kind of reforms, he will made (in OTL he dies soon at the beginning of the War of Corinth of OTL) before his death and with some support from the king and other spartiates that also see this situation, some cautious reforms to permit diminish the requisits to be an spartiate principally with the aim of recover the hypomeiones to the community of spartiates and even give some enter to part of the periecos.
This reforms have positive effects in TTL: while in OTL the number of spartiates were of 8000 in 480BC, 3500 in 418BC, 2500-3000 in 395BC, 1500 in 371BC, 1000 in 360 BC and no more of 700 in 250 BC; in TTL in 371 there were 3000 spartiates and in 350 BC aprox 3200-3400, but although the reforms will suceed in stop the possibility of an internal collapse of Sparta, they will not sufficient to permit the spartans maintain his hegemony in Greece when the situation begin to fall apart in too much places.
Syracuse at the end will of all the greek powers the most powerful in TTL, far more powerful than in OTL.
June 1st, 2006, 06:24 PM
You hit the nail on the head Inaki, The problem for Sparta is its system that led to the decline of the Spartiate class. This is irredeemible since any reform will destroy the Spartan social order.
Will Syracuse be strong enough to oppose Rome successfully? If Carthage feels sufficently threatened then it will call on its old ally Rome to help stop Dionysius. Magna Grecia will be as fragmented as it was in our time only the differences papered overby Syracusian control. Once that is loosened a little the factions will again cripple the cities responses to danger.
June 1st, 2006, 07:51 PM
Yes, it was only until the kings Agis IV and Cleomenes III in the third century BC that a true reform was attempted and because it was clear that the only solution to attempt to restore the greatness of Sparta was to make some great reforms (and even with that weak situation that could justify these reforms there were a strong opposition that suceeds in kill Agis IV and oppose Cleomenes until this hit first and make a total purge of the opposition group).
In Sparta in TTL the presence of the strong figures of Lysander (that in TTL will not be killed in an ambush in 395 like in OTL) and the king Agesilaus a friend of Lysander permits to bring some cautious reforms, in fact very cautious, it consists only in diminishing the quote to the syssition and giving the opportunity of showing the valour to the state in the battle to open to some periecos (naturally this valour has to be valoured by an special council of spartiates, this assures the limitation of this expansion and also permits to admit only that individuals considered as sure for the Sparta state), the diminishion of the quote combined with other measures as this valoration of the valour permits practically the recuperation of all hypomeiones and the entry of some periecos.
No more reform is possible, nor Lysander neither Agesilaus want any radical reform, apart that they both consider it as dangerous to the state, the fact is that a far more succesful and prestigious Sparta seems invalidate any option to apel the possible critical situation to Sparta to achieve more reforms.
As say before this succeeds in maintain a stable number of spartiates around 3000-3500 along the fourth century BC (a number far less than the 8000 of 480BC) but anymore, for a potence as Sparta than in TTL is more overextended than in OTL, remember the presence of an Ionian League of the cities given the freedom by Cyrus III as part of the pact with Sparta in exchange of the help against Artajerjes, this means harmostas in the principal cities of the Ionian League, plus a tribute to maintain the Spartan fleet not only like in OTL in the continental Greece also in the Ionian territories, apart of this the need to maintain a strong army to support allies as Licofron of Feras and to maintain an eye in Thebes or Athens make of Sparta a potence situated because his special social organization in a situation of weak equilibrium before the possibility of multiple problems, as this will happen in TTL in late fourth century BC-beginnings of the third Century BC.
Respect to Syracuse in OTL Dyonisius makes the claim that it was beginning a panhelenic war against Carthage in 397 as a mean of gaining the support of the cities of Sicily, in OTL not suceeded the sufficient principally because the great delay in taking Motia, the carthaginian fortress, this permits Himilco to assemble a great army, apart of this there were some cities opposed to Dyonisius in Sicily this all combined causes at the end that Dyonisius have a long war (397-392 BC) that serves to better his initial positions before the war but at the price of great losses of soldiers and for the syracusan economy, in fact the situation in the practice is a recognition of a situation of draw and division in the island between carthaginians and syracusans.
In TTL , the situation is some different, without a war in Asia Minor between Sparta and the persians like OTL because the victory of Cyrus III permit the independence of the cities under a Ionian League (under naturally the protection of Sparta:rolleyes: ) this means that Sparta is not ocuppied in a war when Syracuse begins his war, Dyonisius also has searched the help of Sparta the principal potence in Greece as a measure of strengthening his dominion over Sicily (Sparta realizes Dyonisius is making a politic of alliances and surely Syracuse is a good ally, so when Dyonisius offers a pact of alliance with Sparta, Lysander and Agesilaus agrees inmediately) and for Lysander and Agesilaus that are claiming that the dominion of Sparta assures the true independence of Greece (look we have got to obtain the independence of the Ionian cities, and we are the guardians against any possibility of the resurection of the "tyrany" of the old Athenian League) supporting the panhelenic campaign of Dyonisius makes some interesting political points of propagande before the other greek cities.
With this help Motia is captured quickly (so not a long siege that gives the sufficient time to Carthage to mobilize a great army) and as we will see in the next segment, the war against Carthage will be a total success, in fact Syracuse will unify all the island and Cartaghe would suffer not only the loss of Sicily, also rebellions of the native populations will means a weakening of the position of Carthage in Africa, all this combined will mean that the Cartaghe of TTL will be far more weak than in OTL while Syracuse will convert in an authentic great potence dominating and unifying all Sicily.
June 20th, 2006, 09:40 PM
396 BC With the need of acting quickly a carthaginian fleet under the command of Conon departs from Carthage with an army commanded by Himilco, succesfully arrives until Panormus and defeats the blockade contingent of the siracusian fleet present there, after the Himilco army succeeds in releasing the siege of Panormus and Solunto.
While the navarcus Farax arrives from Sparta with a new spartan fleet, included in the fleet there are ships from the Ionian League and Rhodes, there is an impasse while the two contenders prepares for the next campaign.
First Dialogues of the fhilosopher Platon: Apology of Socrates, Protagoras and Gorgias.
The gauls takes the city of Milan
The romans take the etruscan city of Veii
395 BC The first movements of the campaign of Sicily are a success for Himilco, he defeats a combined siracusian-spartan army under the command of Clearchus and Polixeno that tries another time to siege Solunto.
The disaster but happens in the sea when Conon sails against a siracusian-spartan fleet commanded by Farax near Panormus, when the combat seems that will end in a draw a new contingent of ships is seen in the far distance, Conon believing that could be part of the reinforcing carthaginian fleet that was being gathered at Carales in southern Sardinia think yet in the victory, his surprise is great when he realizes that effectively is a reinforcing fleet but not from Carales, from Massilia, the panhelenic discourse of Sparta and Syracuse have had interesting effects in Massilia that also seeks to revenge the greek defeat at Alalia in 540 BC and eliminate the presence of Carthage in Corsica.
Conon tries to defend against this new danger, but the greek superiority is now too much even for the skills of Conon, he dies in combat and with him dies the most part of the carthaginian fleet.
The Battle of Panormus is decisive, now Himilco is blockaded in Panormus and Solunto, Himilco but defeat for the moment the attempts of the greeks to defeat his army, he expects that the next year a new carthaginian fleet could help to release the blockade.
394 BC The esperances of Himilco disappears totally, a rebellion of the lybians natives in Africa obligates to Carthage to use all her resources to defeat this rebellion.
The lybian rebellion (394-392 BC) is the principal factor that makes impossible reinforce Himilco and release this of the greek blockade. Realizing the desperate situation Himilco has no more option to surrender his army after obtaining some honourable terms of peace (Dyonisius wanted to end quickly without the need of obtaining a bloody victory, he needs his army intact to permit him to crack down any possible rebellion in the now unified Sicily under his leadership).
A Massilia expedition takes Alalia in Corsica. A coalition of greek cities in Hispania under the leadership of Empuriae takes Ebussos.
The campaign against the Aleuadas ends with the defeat of these and the unification of Tesalia under the hegemony of Licofron of Feras.
The situation of "stasis" (internal conflict) in the Boetian Confederation finally burst out when the antispartan faction of Ismenias expels of Thebes the prolacedemonian faction of Leontíades and proclaims the end of the alliance with Sparta (although naturally Leontiades also declares that Boetia has any intention to pursue an hostile politic against Sparta, only a true independent boetian politic).
Leontiades, Arquiades and Ceratadas (the leaders of the prospartan faction in Boetia) get refuge in Orcomenos and demands the intervention of Sparta.
393 BC Treaty of peace between the greek coalition of Syracuse, Sparta and Massilia with Carthage. Carthage accepts the siracusan dominion over Sicily, Sardinia (in this case Carales and his surrounding territory -the carthaginians not exercised a control over the interior territory of the island-) and Melita. Also accepts limit his fleet to only 20 ships and give all the territories in Corsica (principally Alalia) to Massilia.
Althoug some syracusan and spartans have projects to give a definitive hit to Carthage with an expedition against the own city of Carthage, finally the need of Dyonisius to maintain intact the army in Sicily (Dyonisius apart of sending expeditions to assure the control given in the treaty of Carales and Melita needs also the army to assure his control over Sicily, the population of the greek cities of Solunto, Panormus, Segesta, Entela and Halicias that remained allied with the carthaginians are massively deported to other cities loyal to Dyonisius -the same politic that make Dyonisius with Leontinos in 401 BC- and in their place the cities named are repopulated with people from Syracuse and other loyal cities to Dyonisius) and the need of Sparta to center all his energies in the Boetian War (393-389 BC) makes that finally this project of expedition is abandoned, instead of this the treaty yet named is signed, this end of the war permits to Carthage to center his effors in crack down the lybian rebellion that has even approached too much to the core territory of Carthage.
The negative of Sparta to recognise the new government of Boetian Confederation and the ultimatum sent to Thebes to expel Ismenias and admit another time the proteban faction of Leontiades makes inevitable the war between Boetia and Sparta.
The boetians are not alone, the news of the Boetian conflict against Sparta has made reborn the esperances of some states to at least stop the expansion of the spartan hegemony, the initial success of the boetians taking Orcomenos and defeating an small spartan-focide army near Lebadea makes that Argos and Corinth joins Boetia in the war against Sparta.
In Athens but the moderate factions of Arquino and Trasibulo that governs the city decides to remain neutrals in the conflict, for them with a strong Sparta that counts now with the alliance of Dyonisius of Syracuse and the control over the Ionian League a war is all but in the long term a too much probable suicide, also for the moment Arquino and Trasibulo considers more necessary and useful the continuation of the peace with Sparta, and attempt of conspiration of the radical democrats Epicrates and Cefalo against Trasibulo is discovered and the members of the conspiration jailed.
In Macedonia the prospartan Amintas III overthrown the king Pausanias with the help of a spartan army commanded by Tibron, Sparta has now two allies in the Northern Greece Thesalia and Macedonia.
392 BC Carthage succeeds finally in defeating the lybian rebellion, but with the dispositions of the treaty of only a limited amount of 20 ships he could not defeat another rebellion: in Hispania Gadir (actual Cadiz) and another cities realizing the fact that now Carthage could not defend them against the probability of a greek attack or difficulties with the iberic tribes declares their independence of Carthage and the formation of the League of Gadir (principal members Gadir, Carteia, Malaka, Sexi, Abdera, Tingis and Luxius).
In Greece while the situation is becoming some difficult to the spartans, while an spartan army under the command of Pausanias enters in Boetia from the south (and after defeating a corinthian army that try to stop him) and a joint army of focidians and thesalians under the command of the young Jason of Feras (son of Licofron of Feras) enters from the north, Lysander and Agesilaus lead an army against Argos defeating this and taking the city, but in the north a rebellion of the Aleuadas succeeds in retaking Larisa and the king Amyntas of Macedon is expelled of the throne by a combined illirian invasion commanded by Bardilis and the attacks of the Calcidian Confederation, Bardilis and the calcidics signs an alliance with Thebes recognizing Thebes the division of Macedon between Illiria and The Calcidian Confederation.
This means that the initial reinforcing expedition of Derciliadas, commander ot the spartan garrisons in Asia, formed by a combined army of spartans and troops from the Ionian League have to be redirected from the initial objective of disembark in Boetia to Thesalia to help Licofron to confront the rebellion of the Aleuadas of Larisa and to help Amyntas III (refuged at Feras) against the illirians and calcidians.
Luckily for Sparta the presence of a strong syracusan fleet sent by Dyonisius helps a lot in crack down a rebellion in Rhodes that initially succeeds in expel of the island the spartan garrison, with the syracusan help the island is retaken and the principal members of the rebellion executed.
Burton K Wheeler
June 21st, 2006, 02:59 AM
Please keep updates coming. I'd like to see the long-term effects of this.
June 21st, 2006, 09:32 PM
I´ll try it, although having four daughters in the board (Den Xiaoping not gains the power, Rim Sin defeats Hammurabi, Sri Harsha had a son and Cirus the younger defeats Artajerjes II in Cunaxa) it will make that sometimes a timeline not being updated for a relative long time in favour of others:)
For the moment 1 year more of TTL (sorry for only a year but no doubt that this moment seems have a lot of interesting events each year, this Boetian War is clearly an important war that seems extending more each year)
391 BC Siege of Corinto by Lysander and Agesilaus, the siege provokes that the situation of stasis (internal crisis) makes possible the burst out of a violemt uprising of a democratic faction that try to overthrown the moderate oligarchic faction that dominates the city, this pressed by the prospartan oligarchic faction was thinking in negotiate with the spartans, the democratic rebellion is put down bloodly, in the confussion and believing in the possibility of a victory of the democratic faction (and naturally the clear possibility if this happen of a slaughter between the prospartan oligarchics) the prospartan faction open the gates to the spartan army: Corinth surrenders; Lysander and Agesilaus establishes peace conditions relatively light, in fact a new aliance between Corinth and Sparta is made with the members of the prospartan faction being now the leaders of Corinth, a hard repression of the democrats is made, Lysander and Agesilaus even decide to reinforce the position of the now allied faction that governs the city to not establish an harmosta -spartan garrison- (at difference of Argos that sees the most part of his territory annexed to Sparta and the city same watched by the presence of a harmosta).
While this happens the situation in Boetia is something complicated by the spartans: a total mobilization of the Boetian confederation and the fact that clearly the boetians are in a desperate fight for their independence combined this with a good command makes possible that an espartan army under the command of Pausanias could be defeated at Tespias in the south front (the defeat of Pausanias will make possible the rise of the prestige of Lysander and Agesilaus while the prestige of Pausanias fall in the same measure that rises the prestige of Lysander and Agesilaus, so this will cause far less problems at the hour of aproving the reforms respect to the decrease of the requisits of being an spartiate in 388-87 BC -some isolated measures to make possible recover some hypomeiones to the degree of spartiates had been implemented in the years before, but they are only isolated measures not a coordinated effort- see 2nd post by me in this thread for an explanation of the reasons of these reforms).
While in the north the focidian-thesalian army makes far better that the unfortunate Pausanias, the young Jason of Feras proves to be a competent general defeating a boetian army in Queronea and taking Orcomenos, but the defeat of Pausanias in the south and the problems of the thesalians in the north with the rebellion of the aleuadas makes necessary a brief impasse in the boetian front (also as commented a third army commanded by the spartan Derciliadas that had put in a dangerous problem the boetians had to be redirected to Thesalia to fight the problems in the north).
Tarentum under Archytas sign a treaty of alliance with Sparta, in his aim is being the dominant potence in South Italy, also the pression of the italic peoples against the greek cities makes necessary for Tarentum have a good ally, the movement is also made to prevent the possibility of being only Sicily the dominant power in the South Italy, in fact Tarentum and Dyonisius accords a division of Italy (Dyonisius also seeks revenge against Reggio by the failed attempt of 399 BC of Reggio to overthrown him). Reggio answer with the formation of an Italiot League that have between their members the cities of Caulonia, Medma, Crotona, Turios, Elea, Posidonia and Heraclea and sending emissaries to the illyrians; Dyonisius and Tarentum counts with the presence of a small expeditionary spartan army commanded by Clearchus and with a mercenary greek army commanded by Xenophonte (yes the famous author of the "Heladics" and the biographies of "Lysander", "Agesilaus" and "Dyonisius") and the alliance of Locris, Metaponto and the lucanians.
In Thesalia the arrival of Derciliadas is by luck just at time to defeat an illirian army near Feras and to make flee the small fleet of the Calcidic federation from the coast of Thesalia. The situation in the norhtern Greece is no doubt the most dangerous for the Spartan Coalition, the illyrians under
Bardilis are showing a great performance, Alcetas king of the Epirus and allied of Sparta and Syracuse suffers an illirian offensive that only the help from a syracusan army sent by sea permits him to stand relatively well although only at the price of letting for the moment the 1/2 of his kingdom in the hands of the illyrians.
While the Boetian War rages in 391 BC with the expansion of the war to new scenarios, in Central Italy, a regional state that slowly but continously has been expanding in Central Italy sees in this date an important military reform (the authors indicates as more probable 391 BC although it seems clear that some of the reforms began in 392 BC): the named "Camilus" reform was made by the dictator Marcus Furius Camilus, it seems influenced by the presence of some greeks soldiers in Rome (principally spartan), also the news of the victoriuos war of Dyonisius in Sicily had arrived to Rome where also it was seen as a weakening of the position of the etrurians but also as the possibility of problems from the south, the need to adopt new tactics and weaponry under these new events made necessary this reform that helped a lot the romans when they had to confront the gauls the next year.
Principally the reform was made based in three principles:
- influenced by the armament of the greeks of the phalanx and other greek corps, the material was largely improved: instead leather helmet a metal helmet, also the pilum and shields were improved, principally the pilum was weighted with a lead ball to increase the penetrative power, a kind of long spear named prolix was also adopted to some specific units in a clear influence from the greek phalanx.
-Although some tactics from the phalanx were adopted (as for example the use mentioned of a long spear named prolix) it is clear that this was only one of the reforms, the principal was the use of combined corps: cavalry, soldiers armed with two pilum and gladius (the pilum to be thrown agains the adversaries) the use of a corps or archers and it seems that this reforms althoug influenced by the greeks and the phalanx was more reforms that profit the lessons of the inadequation of the phalanx to defeat combined corps and to be used it in difficult terrain, it seems that the presence and influence of certain spartan named Xantipo in Rome accelerated the reforms in this sense (in fact it made possible in the future that the romans were perfectly prepared to neutralize the phalanx because this Xantipo and Marcus Furius Camilus based in part the reforms in how to neutralize the phalanx and at the same time attempt to create a fast, mobile army that use the best of the phalanx withouth his weaken points).
- The maniple was introduced permitting the legion having more capacity of manouver and velocity, also influenced by the reality of the spartiates in Sparta -another time the figure of this misterious Xantipo appears- (his weaken points of being too much restricted -we are talking about a year where the reforms of Lysander and Agesilaus yet not had began- and also the strong points of the feel within the corps of spartiates of being all same comrades) the legion adopted a politic of making possible a system that valorates the veterany and the disposition of the legion in diferent lines instead the old division according the wealth of the different categories of the census (based in if you were more rich or not that the other), this made possible an authentic feeling of comradery and based more in the merits than the wealth the career in the legion.
In definitive these reforms permitted Rome to first confront the conflicts with the gauls the next years, also with Etruria weakened by the presence now of a strong Syracuse and Massilia and the defeat of Carthage (an old ally of Etruria), his own divisions and the presence of the invaders gauls make possible all this combined with the roman military reforms that Rome was the dominant potence in Central Italy in a relatively little time.
Burton K Wheeler
June 22nd, 2006, 05:09 AM
I have nothing but admiration for the amount of quality work that you put on this board. I only have one timeline in the works, and a ridiculously easy job that mostly involves sitting at my computer waiting for emails, and I've already let the thread die.
I have a funny feeling that Phillip of Macedon is not going to have nearly as easy a time subduing the Greeks with a still-strong Sparta. Please let this timeline go far enough that we can see Phillip and Alexander, and possibly the final fate of the Achaemenid Empire.
June 22nd, 2006, 09:11 PM
Thanks a lot for the praise:)
Unfortunately I stayed the last two weeks before this monday occupied in my real life so I don´t notice the appearition of your time line, but today I read it and I think that is a good and interesting timeline (and also one roman ATL, one of my prefered themes:cool: ), as you will see in the comment in your timeline I expect that you can continue it soon:)
Respect to Philip of Macedon, well he was born in 382 of Amyntas, I suscribe the theory of chaos in ATL, so from a determined moment the people that born is totally different that the people of OTL (you can see an aplication of this in for example in Historia Mundi of Dominus and a very good example in the wonderful mega-timeline of Decades of Darkness -I think that you know the works of Dominus, so I will put only this link to Decades of Darkness http://www.alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/ that is updated regularly by Jared (the new name of Kaiser Wilhelm), the creator of this timeline and one of the veteran members of the board -there is also a discussion thread about Decades of Darkness in the board-).
As I say because Philip was born in 382 BC so 19 years after the POD, in a beginning it would be some difficult to see to him appear in TTL, but because I think that wawes of theory of chaos in the ancient times move far more slow than in for example the XIX and XX centuries, possibiliy we can see Philip born but his son Alexander not will be born in TTL (he is too much in the future so the wawes of changes will have affected his birth), after saying this the situation in Macedon are changing with respect to OTL, in fact the difficulties of Sparta in OTL prevent Macedon of being a more or less obedient allied of Sparta, in TTL Amyntas will owe his throne to the help of Sparta and Thesalia, although I have no doubt that in TTL Macedon will have an important paper it won´t be the decisive paper of OTL.
In fact the Aquemenid Empire of TTL will last far more than in OTL and it will give a nasty surprise to the greeks in the future (remember this name: Darius IV the Conqueror -I could not resist to reveal some clues about the future:D ;) -), respect to the greek world as I say although Macedon will have an important paper in the future, three other greek actors will have in the future a more important paper that Macedon: Thesalia, Syracuse and the Carian kingdom (more clues of the future;) )
Burton K Wheeler
June 24th, 2006, 06:16 AM
Phillip of Macedon probably will not have the same political reasons to marry Olympias of Epiros that he did in OTL. His remarkable energy will probably be focused mostly northwards, with a stronger Greece and Persia blocking him to the south and east. Possibly Macedon ends up conquering Thrace, or even extending some level of Hellenization over the Pannonian Celts and Dacians. The Spartans would certainly support the "half-barbarian" Macedonians as a buffer against the barbarians of the north so they can focus on what they perceive as the real threats.
I'm looking very forward to seeing what "Darius the Conquerer" can do. With the exception of Cyrus and Darius, the Achaemenids never did produce a good ruler. One emperor with the military ability and boldness of Cyrus compared with the political and administrative talents of Darius, given a long reign, could easily set up the house of Achaemenes for several hundred more years of success.
The only real difficulty the Achaemenids had was getting good successors. Cyrus was succeeded by Cambyses, who, though competent, lacked the vision and ability to run the whole Empire. Darius was a cousin of Cyrus', elected by the leaders of the Achaemenid house. Maybe some kind of elective succession from among the Achaemenids would be best for the Empire. I'm very curious to see who comes after Cyrus III...
August 10th, 2007, 02:25 PM
390 BC Without doubt the year when the Boetian War was decided, although the year before the situation for the Spartan and allied armies (principally thesalians, macedonians and epirotes) had been complicated, the fact is that while Sparta maintained a coordination of war with his allies, the enemies of Sparta was too much distanced and discoordinated, while the Boetian Confederation could say that his allies had served to distract the principal armies of Sparta of inflict a direct hit in the Confederation, the reality is that with the fall of Corinth in the hands of the prospartan coalition, had disapeared the possibility of get a strong coalition core based in the territories of Argos, Corinth and Boetia, the fall of Corinth meant that now Argos and Boetia territories were isolated.
Argos in fact is the objective of a strong army commanded by the spartan king Agesilaus, withouth the possibility of some kind of help after the defeat at the spring of a desperate attempt of Ismenias to help Argos at the battle of Megara, Argos know perfectly which will be the fate, worse of all is the fact that the siracusan fleet has bring reinforcements from king Dionisius to Sparta, with a large spartan-siracusan army besiegin him and the defeat of the boetian army at Megara, Argos surrender to Sparta, if Corinth has benefited of a change of side and is now an spartan ally, Argos that has remained loyal to the alliance with Boetian to the end, suffers worse peace conditions, all the Argos territory with the exception of the own city and the direct surrounding region is annexed to Sparta and Argos suffers the presence of a strong spartan harmosta.
While in the north Sparta and Thesalia under the command of Dercilidas and the own Lysander that has arrived with a new army practically overrun all the adversaries of Sparta, the aleuadas are defeated by Jason and Dercilidas while Lysander defeat the illirians, put Amyntas III definitively at the throne of Macedon, the Calcidian Confederation is defeated at Olinto and dissolved, his members now little independent cities under the “protection” of Sparta.
In Italy while at Clusium an etruscan city besieged by gauls, a roman army benefits of the Camilus reforms and possibily of the presence of good commanders (and could be some “greek” assesors), the battle is hard and a draw but the gauls are obligated to rise the siege and go to the north, the romans with heavy casualties are unable to pursue them (and also it seems the roman army follow the advise to not pursue the gaul army because the possibility of an ambush), this marks the beginning of the roman war against the gauls that will permit to expel or dominate the gauls south of the Po and being at the end of the war (or better say wars or campaigns) the effective Protector of a great part of the etruscan cities and the hegemonic power within the Latin League.
Important Note: BC in TTL means Before Chandra, not Before Christ, all the years are BC or ABC (After the birth of Chandra), Chandra indian philosopher, prophet and historian was the founder of the Chandranism, a religion and philosophy based in the terms of the theory of the “differents paths of destiny” and the belief in a a great God Creator named the Universal God or Entity as the father of the Universe, this but not means that other gods could not exist, only that they are only minor gods or Great Spirits that are inferiors to the Universal God but with great power and normally with stipulated influence areas, based in territory and powers, the Indian Gods are based in India, while the Greek Gods are based in Greece and other greco-influenced lands, this capacity of absorb gods of other religions made of the Chandranism in TTL the more widespread and popular religion –more or less as widespread as our Christianism-, although it could seem a casuality respect to the born of Christ in OTL and Chandra in the same year, the fact is that is not the same year, as we know Christ was born in reality in around 4 BC more or less while that effectively Chandra was born in year 0 –Chandranism gives great importance to history, this and the fact that Chandra was a great figure during his life, known of the courts of the Indo-greek-persian kingdoms of the North and even at the end of his life his fame and beliefs were known as far as Carian kingdom and the Roman Republic has permitted to know with precission the birth data and facts of the life of Chandra. (1)
(1) in the actuality the Great United Republic of Chandela has made of the Chandranism the state religion, the GURC is the proud heir of the Great Chandela Empire that during the XVI-XIX ABC centuries was the great colonial power in TTL –in fact it was so powerful as the British Empire of OTL, btw: the industrial revolution happened here at XVI century at different sites but being the Chandela Empire, with a growing and important comercial class and science and industry protected by an efficient, flexible and organized administratio,n the nation that become the Superpower that in OTL the British Empire was during the XIX century.
August 10th, 2007, 09:30 PM
I discover this excellent timeline just as I'm in the final phase of my graduation paper on the logistics of this period, thus reading Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenopho, Dionisios and Plutarch on a daily basis and I'm impressed by your work. Yet I must say that I'm a bit surprised by the amount of troops you give the Spartans especially as you make them loose several battles, be it in Sicily or in Greece proper.
Loosing a battle for the Spartan was always a bad thing for their manpower, especially anytime homoioi were fighting in the battle, but also a defeat shattered their image in the Greek world. Sphacteria was such a huge blow as is shown by what Thucydides wrote about it but the Greeks somewhat accepted it without loosing faith in the Spartan invincibility myth because of the conditions of the battle ( surrounded, without much provision, in a terrain where phalanx could not be deployed, they were defeated by light troops slinging missiles at them and they surrendered ). On the other hand Leuctres was a killing blow for them for it was the proof that in a regular phalanx against phalanx fight they could be destroyed despite the presence of the King, the 300 elite corps of the hippeis and some other homoioi along with some 3000 other fighters.
Here you basically have Leuctres happening earlier without the consequences, and I think this is a mistake. Athens in particular might be more restless after such defeats. Also by this time Athens will have recovered financially ( even if it has not yet rebuilt the Delos league ) and will probably be active either in the Hellespont, Thrace or behind it in the black sea with some new colonies in the area. Because one must not forget that Athens lacks agricultural production to feed it's population and needs to import a lot of food, historically they did it from Sicily but here the close alliance between Dionisius and Sparta.
Also you give Dionisius massive forces which I'm not so sure he'd be able to support for as long as you have him do. After all a warship cost 1 talent per month to sail, and to have 6000 man under arms cost one talent a day minimum ( you can probably double that sum if you use mercenaries. Spartans homoioi ). To give you an idea Sparta had in 404 only 470 talents in it's coffers, what was left of the money given by the Persians. Here I presume Sparta is no longer subsidized by the Persians and Syracuse will have lost quite a bit of it's revenue if it does not sell as much wheat as it did OTL to Athens ( one must remember that the Spartans ate barley and will thus not be a market for Syracusa who will also need more food for itself ) so it seems to me that the rythm of operations and their scale is a bit too much. Still very good work !
August 10th, 2007, 11:36 PM
Like Hecatee said, this TL is great. I'm just eager to see what happens next, and I wonder if a balance of power situation may develop for a while.
But'd that's be rather boring.
August 11th, 2007, 07:47 AM
Thanks both for the praises:)
Hecatee: Leuctra has not happened in TTL, in fact I think that you can be some confused, I suppose you refers to OTL battle of Leuctra (371 BC) but here the Boetian War is TTL version of OTL Corinth War (395-386 BC).
In OTL Sparta won the Corinth War but only after a long struggle that cost the life to Lysander and obligated to Sparta to made treats with Persia that involved the abandon of Sparta of any influence sphere in the Ionian Coast ,we have to remember that although Sparta benefited in Peloponessus War in the late stages of an alliance with Persian that involved a lot of persian gold, after the end of Peloponessus War and with the defeat of Cyrus the Younger in Cunaxa, Sparta was obligated to send an expedition to defend the independence of the Ionian cities against Persia this means the beginning of the Spartan war against Persia that lasted until 395-94 BC when Sparta had get the control of an important part of the Ionian coast, unfortunately the Corinth War began that year and with the needs of this war and the long struggle at the end Sparta had to pact with Persia to abandon the Ionian cities in the hands of Persia in exchange of persian support for end the Corinth War that was draining quickly the resources of Sparta.
In TTL Sparta is far better prepared to confront this Boetian War, first of all, the victory of Cunaxa by Cyrus the younger has give the power to a persian king that debt his throne to the support of greek mercenaries and Sparta, in OTL the prize for this help had been the freedom of the Ionian cities (naturally under the protection of Sparta) in OTL Cunaxa saw the death of Cyrus, here Cunaxa is the great victory of Cyrus thanks to the greek help, in TTL so Sparta has as allies the cities of the Ionian League that debt his freedom to the pact between Cyrus and Sparta, this not only means that Sparta has a strong ally in the future Boetian War, also that in TTL not exists the Persian-Spartan War of 400-395 BC, this has a great importance because without this need of Sparta to liberate militarly the cities of Ionian Coast, the armies of Sparta are free to help another ally of Sparta: Dyonisius of Syracuse, in OTL Dyonisius was even without spartan help at a very little distance to get the unification of all Sicily in the hands of Syracuse, here with the help of an Spartan expeditionary corps Dyonisius defeats completely Carthage.
I think that to know how exactly Sparta could develop large operations in a long struggle, we have to think in the spartan operations during the OTL Corinth War (395-386 BC).
Wikipedia provides an account of this war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_War
BTW: my principal sources to write this ATL is the superb book "Greece in the IV century BC" by professor Jose Pascual Gonzalez of Editorial Sintesis (great book, surely one of the best written about this period, and also great editorial that has a lot of books about history, for all that could read the castillian -spanish- language and have the opportunity to buy a book of Editorial Sintesis I recommend totally their books:cool:), also the tome 7 of Great Universal History (Clasical Greece) of Ediciones Najera provides a detailed account of the history of Clasical Greece including the IV century BC and naturally the superb spanish web http://www.satrapa1.com/
with great articles about ancient history, for all that could read castillian -spanish- I recommend the detailed Chronology of IV-I centuries BC
but also all the web is superb:cool:, its quality is clear when you read for example the article about Memnon http://www.satrapa1.com/articulos/antiguedad/memnon/Memnon.htm
This web also has the surely more dettailed account of the Second Punic War http://www.satrapa1.com/paginas/anibalWEB/entrada/marcoprincipal.htm
Well after making some propaganda about this great web:D:cool: only say that if in OTL Sparta was capable to make the effort of the Corinth War, in TTL with Siracuse dominating all Sicily and in alliance with Sparta + Persia totally neutral -Cyrus accepted the freedom of Ionian cities, (but what gained Cyrus, well apart of the throne, spartan neutrality in the persian campaigns to conquest Egypt) + strong alliance with Ionian League has made of the Boetian War a desperate attempt of Boetian League to stop the hegemony of Sparta -also with a far best spartan position in TTL and with the great panhelenic propaganda of getting the freedom of the Ionian cities and the help to Dyonisius to expel Carthage from Sicily, in TTL Athens remains neutral in the Boetian War-, the Boetian as we will see in the next segment will suffer a total defeat, Sparta is far better prepared to gain this war than in OTL to gain the Corinth War.
JP_Morgan: Unfortunately for a more active situation in Greece, you know great battles and greek cities in a struggle against spartan harmostas, etc the IV century BC will be rather quiet (and yes some boring:D) for Sparta until the future Ionian War (but this only will happen in the second half of the IV century BC), so not Leuctra, not Mantinea, not Epaminondas, this will give time to the Lysander reforms to develop, naturally in the future even with these reforms Sparta will suffer setbacks that will end with his hegemony (althought thanks to Lysander reforms and another future reforms Sparta will remain a powerful regional power in Greece some centuries).
Although well we have our beloved romans, they have a lot of hard work in TTL, but without Alia and sack of Roma in 387 BC, the romans will be a regional power earlier than in OTL, so expect great roman campaigns;)
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