Nestorian dominance in Persia/Central Asia and the Jews

[yofie]

Hi there,
I was wondering: If the Nestorians had been given a chance to be the majority in Persia and Central Asia and to be in power, would that have been as bad for the Jews as many of the Byzantine rulers or the Catholic ones in Europe had been? How would that have compared with the Muslims?
Yosef

[Shawn Endresen]

Certainly not for the Jews who have to live under them...before Islam landed on the area like a ton of bricks, the Nestorians of Persia and Transoxiana had to deal with significant Buddhist and Zoroastrian minorities in their communities, and a few other faiths as well. They were well-practiced, relatively speaking, at dealing with religious minorities.

Globally, though, there's fair odds it makes it worse; the Islamic conquest of the area brought the technique of cheap and easy paper-making to the West during the 8th century. Hard to say how long it will take to diffuse from China to Christendom otherwise, but expensive paper = less literacy = potentially much longer Dark Ages.

[stevep]

Certainly not for the Jews who have to live under them...before Islam landed on the area like a ton of bricks, the Nestorians of Persia and Transoxiana had to deal with significant Buddhist and Zoroastrian minorities in their communities, and a few other faiths as well. They were well-practiced, relatively speaking, at dealing with religious minorities.

Globally, though, there's fair odds it makes it worse; the Islamic conquest of the area brought the technique of cheap and easy paper-making to the West during the 8th century. Hard to say how long it will take to diffuse from China to Christendom otherwise, but expensive paper = less literacy = potentially much longer Dark Ages.

The Nestorians might have been fairly moderate as local majorities but overall in a minority but would they have been as tolerant as a politically dominant majority? This tends to make groups more hard line, especially those who believe they have a monopoly of 'the truth'. Don't know enough about their beliefs to know for sure but as Christians, like Zoroastrian and Muslims they would probably tend to take a harder line, especially with groups they might think of doubtful loyalty. [Which tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy as once you start treating people poorly they tend to be less friendly to you].

On the paper issue that could be a good point but why do you think it spread easier under the Muslims than under say a continued Zoroastrianor a Nestorian domination of the region? Any of them would be politically and religiously hostile to eastern Europe - presuming an Orthodox Christian Byzantium there. Was there any particular reason why it would spread easier under the Muslims or was it just an idea who's time had come?

Steve

[Leo Caesius]

The Church of the East had perennial troubles with Zoroastrians and even other Christians (particularly the Armenians, whom they accused of idolatry). I'd hate to think of what the Nestorians would do if they had power over these groups. James Russell, the Mashtots Professor of Armenian Studies at Harvard University, has written an AH-story about the Mongols adopting Nestorianism and conquering the Middle East; I'll see if I can't dig it up.

As for the Jews, I'm not sure how they treated the Jews, but I do know one thing - the Chinese word for Jew, youtai, is originally Aramaic yhudayye, one of the few relics of the Nestorian presence in China.

[stevep]

The Church of the East had perennial troubles with Zoroastrians and even other Christians (particularly the Armenians, whom they accused of idolatry). I'd hate to think of what the Nestorians would do if they had power over these groups. James Russell, the Mashtots Professor of Armenian Studies at Harvard University, has written an AH-story about the Mongols adopting Nestorianism and conquering the Middle East; I'll see if I can't dig it up.

As for the Jews, I'm not sure how they treated the Jews, but I do know one thing - the Chinese word for Jew, youtai, is originally Aramaic yhudayye, one of the few relics of the Nestorian presence in China.

Leo

Would that be that Gengis gets the wife he wanted with parental consent?:rolleyes: If I remember rightly the westernmost Mongol tribe was dominated by a Nestorian group and early on was very much a sponsor of Gengis. Then when he asked for the hand of a daughter of the chief they took umbrage. I think he got his wife but only after a fight and the destruction of his former allies. Even so the early Mongols included a lot of eastern Christians and gained a measure of support from other isolated Christian groups because they seemed to offer refuge from Muslim rule. I wonder if the tribal leader had agreed, say on condition Gengis agrees to at least nominal conversion?

Would be interesting to read the story you mention. Could have seem interesting effects on later developments.:)

Steve