Was the Roman conversion to Christianity inevitable?

[Midgard]

The thread on Marcus Aurelius' hypothetical conversion got me thinking about this. Was the conversion of Rome to Christianity mainly due to Constantine's actions that may not have been repeated had a different Emperor ruled in his place, or was it a culmination of long ongoing trend? Meaning, even if Constantine did not convert, one or more of the Emperors following him would have essentially done the same thing as he had? What do you think?

[carlton_bach]

Yes and No. Almost every historical event becomes 'inevitable' is you place the cutoff point close enough. So if Constantine hadn't converted, it is very likely some other emperor would have had. Christianity was already well on its way to respectability and acceptance, as the widespread official foot-dragging and eventual rescinding of the last persecution orders showed. But in the greater scheme of things, the conversion of Rome to Christianity was not inevitable. I do believe that with the invention of missionary imperatives and unitary, societywide religions, it was inevitable that the old forms of paganism would die out. The new system was simply too dynamic and dangerous not to either take over or trigger wide-ranging responses. But there were already quite a few missionary religions around, and depending on where you put your PODs, any one of them could have made it. CHristianity as we know it was well placed for it, but that is at least partly true because it is the prioduct of that very process of assimilation to a leadership role I do not think the Christian house circles of AD 200 or the stylites and anchorites of AD 450 understood or believed they were part of a process that led to the imperial church.

So, a continuing pagan Rome? Not likely. A Manichaean, Isidian, Jewish, reorganised pagan ("Eurohinduist"), hell, a Buddhist, even a Samaritan Rome? Yes, these were perfectly possible. Personally, I like the idea of a Samaritan conversion.

[Nicole]

I think a continuing Pagan Rome is quite possible, actually, however, it doesn't mean Christianity won't be the majority religion, just the state religion could stay Pagan... which could have interesting consequences for the Papacy when the Empire is overrun....

[carlton_bach]

I think a continuing Pagan Rome is quite possible, actually, however, it doesn't mean Christianity won't be the majority religion, just the state religion could stay Pagan... which could have interesting consequences for the Papacy when the Empire is overrun....

I don't see how that would work. Traditional paganism is predicated on being the majority religion. In fact, it doesn't even have a concept of 'a' religion. It operates on the assumption that religion exists in the general sense, not the specific. That approach would have a very hard time dealing with a Christian majority, just asa Christian majority would be unlikely to develop under it. It might work with some form of accommodation that regards the Christians as equal to the Jews, and accords them similar privileges.

But the idea of a neo-syncretic pagan Rome with a Christian tradition on the ground is interesting. Of course, that Christianity will be no fun at all to try and govern.

[Nicole]

Well, I mean the patricians and the upper classes remain in the state religion, but Christianity grows to encompass most of the lower class (which I assumed was larger than the Upper Class)

[Keenir]

The thread on Marcus Aurelius' hypothetical conversion got me thinking about this. Was the conversion of Rome to Christianity mainly due to Constantine's actions that may not have been repeated had a different Emperor ruled in his place, or was it a culmination of long ongoing trend? Meaning, even if Constantine did not convert, one or more of the Emperors following him would have essentially done the same thing as he had? What do you think?

Basically what I was wondering in the initial Hadrian thread (besides what effect would he have on the Christianities), was "how early can Christianity become the state religion, ala Constantine?"

I do think, though, that as soon as one opens the doors of Imperial succession to men from the army, you start running odds of eventually coming up with a successor who doesn't practice the state faith (or only pays it lip service).

[carlton_bach]

Well, I mean the patricians and the upper classes remain in the state religion, but Christianity grows to encompass most of the lower class (which I assumed was larger than the Upper Class)

I don't think that's terribly likely. The state religion, such as it was, was a political formulary with very little spiritual content, but immense social significance. If you lack the participants (and the people need to participate), that social significance is simply lost. The whole thing will atrophy.

Also, if the lower classes actually become majority-Christian, sooner rather than later one of them will get to be emperor. More importantly, much sooner than that Christians will become provincial curiosi, duces, comites, praepositi of military units, city assessors and prefects, and judges. Late Antiquity is full of such rags-to-riches stories.

What would be interesting is having the old 'Hellene' habits continue not just in the small hereditary upper classes, but become something expected of all members of the elite. The episcopacy will have kittens! :-)

[Max Sinister]

I think if they hadn't converted to Christianity, the religion of Sol Invictus, the god of the sun, would've been the most probable possibility.

[Hendryk]

I have occasionally wondered whether Imperial Rome might have borrowed a page from the Chinese book (in a coincidental, not a deliberate way, although that's not altogether impossible either), and made a modified version of Stoicism is official state ideology, requiring aspiring civil servants to study the philosophy's corpus and at least paying lip service to its principles. Marcus Aurelius is a fairly obvious candidate for this, all the more so as at that point Christianity is still a fairly obscure sect. In the following couple of centuries, as classical paganism loses its appeal except on a purely formal level and the Christian cult gains more converts, late Imperial Rome would come to resemble China, with a growing, quasi-majority religion that nonetheless fails to take over outright because the regime already has its own philosophical basis in place. Eventually a modus vivendi of sorts would be found. And as was the case in post-Han China, once the barbarians invade, the state ideology would undergo a temporary eclipse, only to make a comeback later because it's simply too useful for a temporal ruler to have a cadre of civil servants that aren't already part of a rival power structure.

[Fabilius]

I have occasionally wondered whether Imperial Rome might have borrowed a page from the Chinese book (in a coincidental, not a deliberate way, although that's not altogether impossible either), and made a modified version of Stoicism is official state ideology, requiring aspiring civil servants to study the philosophy's corpus and at least paying lip service to its principles. Marcus Aurelius is a fairly obvious candidate for this, all the more so as at that point Christianity is still a fairly obscure sect. In the following couple of centuries, as classical paganism loses its appeal except on a purely formal level and the Christian cult gains more converts, late Imperial Rome would come to resemble China, with a growing, quasi-majority religion that nonetheless fails to take over outright because the regime already has its own philosophical basis in place. Eventually a modus vivendi of sorts would be found. And as was the case in post-Han China, once the barbarians invade, the state ideology would undergo a temporary eclipse, only to make a comeback later because it's simply too useful for a temporal ruler to have a cadre of civil servants that aren't already part of a rival power structure.

That´d be quite interesting actually...

[MerryPrankster]

I agree with Hendryk. That would be an interesting thing to see.

Thing is, couldn't one be a Christian and a Stoic at the same time?

[MerryPrankster]

So, a continuing pagan Rome? Not likely. A Manichaean, Isidian, Jewish, reorganised pagan ("Eurohinduist"), hell, a Buddhist, even a Samaritan Rome? Yes, these were perfectly possible. Personally, I like the idea of a Samaritan conversion.

I assume by Isidian you're talking about the worship of Isis.

That becoming the dominant religion of Rome would be interesting.

By Julian the Apostate's time, hadn't classical paganism essentially become "Eurohinduist"?

[Hermanubis]

I agree with Hendryk. That would be an interesting thing to see.

Thing is, couldn't one be a Christian and a Stoic at the same time?
Aren’t many Chinese followers of Confucianism and Buddhism at the same time?

[Cosmos]

In God Against the Gods, Jonathan Kirsch proposes that Julian, had he lived, might have suceeded in bringing the Empire back to some form of reorganized paganism, based on the traditional Roman gods. Maybe you could say this would have been a form of "Eurohinduism" (can you explain exactly what that term means?), but it certainly would have been very different from Christianity.

[carlton_bach]

By Julian the Apostate's time, hadn't classical paganism essentially become "Eurohinduist"?

That was what he was trying, a system of 'accredited' temples and a dedicated, professional priesthood. I doubt the system really had roots by the time it was stamped out, but yes, I could see this work if it got started earlier.

[Max Sinister]

Buddhism is a philosophy and not a religion, strictly speaking. Probably you can be both stoicist and Christian too, unless stoicism says that god(s) is/are not the most important thing or so.

[Tom_B]

Appolonius of Tyana is frequently regarded as a complete myth but an argument can be made there was such a person but he got wildly embellished in the subsequent storytelling (and some think the same thing is true of Jesus). If there was any truth to his legend it seems he was working towards Eurohinduism. In fact part of the legend is he travelled to India and was impressed so it would have a link towards the real McCoy.

The POD might be that he was more successful.