Confederate Navy

[ConfederateFly]

What ships would the Confederate Navy consist of from 1862(the end of the ACW)-1893(Confederate-Nicragugian War where the pro-confederate goverment is attacked by Nicragugian rebels, Costa Rica, and Guatemala)? Describe the ship types and what they look like? Also there leaders?

[Straha]

1 don't know enoguh to speculate.

2 with the way 19th century immigration patters might have been in the draka ATL I'm pretty likely to be born in the draka ATL as a drakan. Instead of beign mexican, the other side of my family besdiesd the german-canadian side would probably be one of the scandanacian blonde drakans. Imagine a taller blonde verion of me witout the glasses.

[ConfederateFly]

So u don't know about the navy?

[Straha]

nope sorry my specialty in ACW WI's is for the ibternal politics of both countries after they go apart and diplomacy.

[Grey Wolf]

I have a huge book on this...but havent read it

But I do remember the Confederate cruisers and reckon these would be the initial backbone of the navy

If the CSA avoids war with any major nation then it may well not have anyting more, just more modern cruisers

Grey Wolf

[ConfederateFly]

I was thinking of it having a motley collection of ships with sails and and iron hulled steam ships and some ironclads.

[Grey Wolf]

I was thinking of it having a motley collection of ships with sails and and iron hulled steam ships and some ironclads.


Well, given the blurred boundaries of ship types in this era thats what you'd probably get with 20 years of cruisers (lighter frigates, corvettes etc)

You know much naval history ?

Grey Wolf

[ConfederateFly]

I know some, but I mostly study the Confederacy and I;m most interested in the Confederate Navy because they could have been great but the army and supply problem held them back. Why do u ask?

[Grey Wolf]

I know some, but I mostly study the Confederacy and I;m most interested in the Confederate Navy because they could have been great but the army and supply problem held them back. Why do u ask?

oh well, the obvious reason - if you already know stuff I didn't want to sound patronising it in describing it :)

Grey Wolf

[David S Poepoe]

The Confederate Navy would be mostly motly, if one has a book on potential Confederate warships then they would most likely have those that they ordered abroad. With the exception of those that were taken over by the various governments - what the Confederates end up is entirely based on when they achieve their independence.

For the most part, given the economics of the Confederacy, I wouldn't think you would see any particularly modern warships until near the turn of the century. Take the US Navy of OTL and just slow it down some more. You shouldn't except the CS Navy to be anything more than a brown water defense fleet. These guys aren't going to be taking on the Spanish in the 1870s yet, let alone the 1880s.

Also one should think about the possibility that just as Britain had a naval arms race with Germany, the same is likely between the Confederacy and the United States, depending on how relations go.

[ConfederateFly]

Could there be a naval treaty between the U.S. and the Confederacy where the United States makes some naval ships for the Confederacy in return for something.

[Grey Wolf]

The cruisers ordered would be delivered - other nations only seized the ones they seized OTL because the CSA was no longer either willing to pay or a good gamble. These cruisers ARE modern but they are designed with a purpose and I THINK that purpose would become the CSA's maxim - trade warfare... Thus they would be renewed and replaced, but though they may be useful for defence if necessary their main purpose would be for cruiser warfare against an enemy's trade. Now that CAN hurt where conventional battlefleets do not

Grey Wolf



The Confederate Navy would be mostly motly, if one has a book on potential Confederate warships then they would most likely have those that they ordered abroad. With the exception of those that were taken over by the various governments - what the Confederates end up is entirely based on when they achieve their independence.

For the most part, given the economics of the Confederacy, I wouldn't think you would see any particularly modern warships until near the turn of the century. Take the US Navy of OTL and just slow it down some more. You shouldn't except the CS Navy to be anything more than a brown water defense fleet. These guys aren't going to be taking on the Spanish in the 1870s yet, let alone the 1880s.

Also one should think about the possibility that just as Britain had a naval arms race with Germany, the same is likely between the Confederacy and the United States, depending on how relations go.

[Straha]

a temporary USA-USA arms race is something I'm going to put in my tmeline now

[Grey Wolf]

Could there be a naval treaty between the U.S. and the Confederacy where the United States makes some naval ships for the Confederacy in return for something.

There doesnt need to be a treaty in so far as the Union yards which are private owned willl build anything any one can pay for, more or less

But it is far more likely that BRITAIN and FRANCE, and later perhaps GERMANY will be the main sources, if only to ensure that the USA doesnt have exact plans of the warships in the event of war

Grey Wolf

[ConfederateFly]

When it gets later in the century would the Confederacy use the ironclads ordered in Europe as commerce raiders and would they by more iron hulled steamer like the CSS Georgia (or when it was bought it was the SS Japan ) also they would have them 4 corvettes ordered in France.

[ConfederateFly]

Could there be a Confederate/German alliance by WW 1? If so how would the Confederacy contribute to Germany in WW 1 such as troops or weapons or thier navy? If WW 1 went the same way what limatations would be put on Germany and the Confederacy as of a treaty?

[NapoleonXIV]

Considering the CSA's maxim as a commerce raiding navy, their lack of money which would incline them to new and innovative ideas, and finally their own history; I'd be very surprised if at least some submarines weren't a part of the fleet by 1893.

[ConfederateFly]

Could there be a Confederate/German alliance by WW 1? If so how would the Confederacy contribute to Germany in WW 1 such as troops or weapons or thier navy? If WW 1 went the same way what limatations would be put on Germany and the Confederacy as of a treaty?

[ConfederateFly]

What kind of ships would they have? Iron Hulled Cruisers, Seagoing and Coastal ironclads, Wooden Cruisers, and Auxillary Gunboats?

[ConfederateFly]

Is anybody going to answer my questions?

[Straha]

probably a motly unorganized almost piratical raider fleet

[David S Poepoe]

"Could there be a Confederate/German alliance by WW 1? If so how would the Confederacy contribute to Germany in WW 1 such as troops or weapons or thier navy? If WW 1 went the same way what limatations would be put on Germany and the Confederacy as of a treaty?"

There could be a Confederate/German Alliance, but thats too Turtledovian I think to consider realist, without other modifications to the TL. First off, (why does it always appear that I'm repeating myself) the Confederates will have to transport any troops or weapons past the Anglo-French blockade. They will be stopped. The Allies are not going to permit supplies to reach Germany. If the Confederacy contributed their navy then they will be at war with the Allies. Since its unlikely that the Confederate Navy will be any sort of threat to the Royal Navy, I don't see the Confederates being able to do much of anything.

If the Confederacy had entered the war upon Germany's side, and the war gone the same then one would expect the peace treaty to be just as harst as in OTL. With the United States involved, probably from whenever the South declared war, its likely that the South will experience territorial loss also.

"The cruisers ordered would be delivered - other nations only seized the ones they seized OTL because the CSA was no longer either willing to pay or a good gamble."

I was thinking of the Laird Rams when I wrote this, which were seized and bought by the Royal Navy to prevent any diplomatic problems.

I would think, much like modernizing Japan, that by the 1910s the Confederacy would have the infrastructure and industrial capability to build its own ships, or order parts aboard and assembly them at home.

The Confederate Navy of the 1890s, may be, a few coastal battleships and predominately torpedo boats. Armoured cruisers will be what is used to show the flag in foreign ports. The rise of the Jeune Ecole school of thought played havock in all the navy's of the world, but I think the Confederate Navy would closely mirror the United States'.

[ConfederateFly]

David, If the Confederates go to war with Spain what year and what would the Navy and Army look like?

[Straha]

with the loss of the CSA expect america to embrace progress to the point whee technologyi s encouraged. The first tanks are likely to be union inventions. If the CSA tries anytihng funny expect blitzkrieg to be demonstrated in 1918 and by union tanks rushing south. Expect the republic of liberatia(a black nation),seqoyah(olkahoma tribes),Texas,Mexico Norte(northern mexico),Cuba,Puerto Rico,congaree(another lback republic carved out of the northern CSA). The rump CSA would recieve sometihng comparable to the morganthau plan but worse as white confederates are forced to work as slave labor. The rump nation would be called New Liberia.

[ConfederateFly]

I don't agree. I think the Confederacy will invent the tank first because they were innovaters in technology in OTL , but didn't have the supplies. I think they will only lose their territories outside the continetal C.S.A. They willstill have the Mexican States, they will just lose Cuba, Puerto Rico, Phillipines, thier African Colony Angola, and thier 2 ports 1 in China and 1 in Japan.

[David S Poepoe]

with the loss of the CSA expect america to embrace progress to the point whee technologyi s encouraged. The first tanks are likely to be union inventions. If the CSA tries anytihng funny expect blitzkrieg to be demonstrated in 1918 and by union tanks rushing south. Expect the republic of liberatia(a black nation),seqoyah(olkahoma tribes),Texas,Mexico Norte(northern mexico),Cuba,Puerto Rico,congaree(another lback republic carved out of the northern CSA). The rump CSA would recieve sometihng comparable to the morganthau plan but worse as white confederates are forced to work as slave labor. The rump nation would be called New Liberia.

Unless the CSA was occupied there wouldn't be any white confederates forced into slave labor. I also doubt there would be any "rump nations" but full scale annexation of territory by the United States. Depending on how advanced the CSA is it probably won't be too much for something like the Morganthau Plan to be enacted. At worst there will be territory administered as a League of Nations Mandate by the United States, then eventually statehood/readmission.

[Straha]

in that TL with a CSA joining the gemrnas there has to be osme resentment maybe a lost war agaisnt the CSA i nthe 80-'s. I neversaid it was plausible

[ConfederateFly]

In the TL I was thinking of the British and French boycott Confederate cotton, so the Germans pick up the slack and buy Confederate Cotton and the Confederates start buying the heavy siege Krupp guns the Germans were using.

[David S Poepoe]

I don't agree. I think the Confederacy will invent the tank first because they were innovaters in technology in OTL , but didn't have the supplies. I think they will only lose their territories outside the continetal C.S.A. They willstill have the Mexican States, they will just lose Cuba, Puerto Rico, Phillipines, thier African Colony Angola, and thier 2 ports 1 in China and 1 in Japan.

I agree with Straha the tank, most likely will be developed by the Union. I'm saying this strictly with consideration that the Union was just as innovative than the South, it has a far larger industrial base and a economy that will continue to promote technological development. I don't see the Confederacy maintaining any advantage because of the basic nature of the society. I don't expect the Confederacy to be able to last any sort of long war over two years.

Regarding their war losses:

1. They aren't going to have a port in Japan to lose to begin with.

2. They aren't going to have a port in China to lose to begin with.

3. They most likely won't have the Philippines - how are they getting it?

4. There is no way the British or French are going to permit the Confederacy to receive any African territory in order to promote the slave trade. They'll sink Confederate slave traders first and even would forcibly stop the transshipment of slaves also.

[Straha]

what did you think about my idea of blitzkrieg?

[ConfederateFly]

They get the port in China because they are part of the force putting down the boxer rebellion. They recieve the Phillipines the same way the U.S. recievied it in OTL. They have a Pacific port at Guyamas after they had purchased the Northern Mexican States of Baja California, Sonora, Chiuhuhua, Tampulias, Neuvo Leon, and Coahulias.

[David S Poepoe]

what did you think about my idea of blitzkrieg?

Too Turtledovian for my taste. While certainly never to be known by any German phrase, I think it would develop more on the transmississippian front where the terrain it better. I suspect any front along the Ohio River or the Potomac would see the tanks advancing with troops.

[David S Poepoe]

They get the port in China because they are part of the force putting down the boxer rebellion. They recieve the Phillipines the same way the U.S. recievied it in OTL. They have a Pacific port at Guyamas after they had purchased the Northern Mexican States of Baja California, Sonora, Chiuhuhua, Tampulias, Neuvo Leon, and Coahulias.

There was no great carving up of China following the Boxer Rebellion, so if the Confederacy gets a port so would the US.

I doubt they would get the Philippines it is entirely outside their own backyard. You must be suggesting two Confederate-Spanish Wars since theres no way they would get it in the 1870s. The Confederacy doesn't have the capability to war a long distance war like that, and there's no way they can suggest it, let alone receive it from the Spanish at the peace table. They aren't threatening it - besides the Confederacy would have such a hard to winning against the Spanish it would need some time to recouperate.

[Straha]

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus christ! WTF is the CSA doing with the phillipines and an afircan colony!?

[ConfederateFly]

If you put it that way here we go!!!! Why did the U.S. get the Phillipines, that is the same way the C.S.A. and they try to get an African colony because in the TL they stiil have the Slave Trade but very secretly they even trick the U.S. nad G.B. by sending 2 warships to patrol the coast as part of the no-slave trade patrol.

[David S Poepoe]

If you put it that way here we go!!!! Why did the U.S. get the Phillipines, that is the same way the C.S.A. and they try to get an African colony because in the TL they stiil have the Slave Trade but very secretly they even trick the U.S. nad G.B. by sending 2 warships to patrol the coast as part of the no-slave trade patrol.

Trying to be realistic, no wishful dreaming, etc.

1. The Slave Trade is not going to be permitted to be renewed. The likes of William Gladstone will see to that. It doesn't matter if there are two Confederate Warships or what, its fairly easy to figure out if the slave trade has been reestablished. Don't try hoodwinking the US or Great Britain, they'll come down like bricks on the Confederacy.

2. The US won the Philippines since it had the military capability to do so while fighting a war in the Caribbean, the Confederacy doesn't. It has limited capabilities in 1860s and won't be anywhere near to accomplishing anything in 1880. You have an extremely exagerated, delusional view of the Confederacy's capabities as an agrarian country.

[ConfederateFly]

Straha, That new TL your creating what thread is it going under or is it going to have a new thread?

[Straha]

a new thread I think

[ConfederateFly]

So what is it mainly about? When will it be posted?

[Straha]

soon later tonight for the first part.

[ConfederateFly]

Cool I'll read it and if you want any comments I would be happy too. How late will it be?

[ConfederateFly]

Straha, how late will it be? I think the Confederates by WW 1 would have a good arsenal of U-Boat type design ships.

[ConfederateFly]

Is anybody still posting?

[Straha]

http://www.alternatehistory.net/discussion/showthread.php?p=235#post235

[ConfederateFly]

I think the Confederates by WW 1 would have a good arsenal of U-Boat type design ships.

[ConfederateFly]

At the begginning of the ACW the recently defunct East India Company offered 10 new ships and some other older ships to the Confederacy. What types of ships would be offered in this TL?

[Grey Wolf]

This is jumping around a lot. Here's a few comments from the Wolfian :)

1. There is no chance of re-establishing the slave trade. The Confederacy does not want to do this. Even disregarding every other factor, that is the key. It is outlawed in the Confederate constitution not for some liberal humanitarian reason enforced from outside, but because its against the interests of their own economy. The sale of slaves, the breeding of slaves (if you wish) is an element of the internal economy and is too important to be jeopardised.

2. The OTL Confederate navy is a mix of high seas raiding cruisers and close-to-shore proto-ironclads which are not seagoing nor real power-projection vessels. There is nothing to rival Britain's Warrior for example.

3. The very essence of the Confederacy is as little central control as possible. Its not about to turn into some authoritarian power hungry country wanting to impose its will on the outside world. Conservatism is a by-word here. The army will be maintained like any other army - what was successful in the 1860s will be seen as key for future wars. And it is also TRUE - cavalry is far from obselete, and was far from obselete in WW1. Given SPACE cavalry will be essential. There is no impetus to invent anything like the tank unless the whole front of an already existing war is bogged down - just look at the OTL origins of the thing.

4. The navy will develop from the OTL navy, again in a spirit of conservatism. There is the likelihood for the in-shore ironclad idea to develop into coast defence battleships, but at best we are looking at the Swedish type here - and that is the best scenario. The high seas raiding cruisers offer the best chance to develop a power projection capability, but this is not a battleforce. This is a force which can intervene in theatres, join with others to enforce Western interests, and can show the flag. In war they can threaten trade.

5. Given all this, it is however possible for the Confederacy to grow. Part of this depends on what land it took from the Union in the first place - if they split the New Mexico teritory on formal independence, then there is more chance of gaining Mexican territory than if they are looking into Mexico purely from Texas. Even so, Mexico is not easily going to be persuaded to SELL its own territory ! It thought it gave away too much at Guadeloupe-Hidalgo in the first place (San Diego especially) and although one can posit Maximillian selling land for security and to rescue his finances, I would think that Turtledove has the maximum here - Chihuahua and Sonora are the least populace provinces.

6. Spain is NOT a walk-over. It has a powerful navy - by the 1890s the state of the navy had degraded, but look at the ships, their number and their age. Ten years earlier these were a powerful force, and the CSA is not going to have any qualitative advantage over them. Its POSSIBLE to take on the Spanish navy and win, of course it is, but its not certain, it will likely be costly and its no sure thing. Even if the states are behind the Confederate government in wanting a war, it will be a deeply argued and momentous decision and it will be LOCAL. The war will be over Cuba. There is the possibility for it to spill over into San Domingo (OTL Spain abandoned efforts to recolonise it upon the Union victory...here they may not) and even Puerto Rico, but never the Philipinnes.

7. Given a best case scenario, the CSA can enter the twentieth century with a couple of Mexican provinces, with Spain's Caribbean possessions, with a navy in the process of building second class battleships on the back of victories, and cruisers showing the flag around the world, with Confederate involvement in the Boxer Rebellion etc. Its army will be mainly cavalry on land and marines for overseas.

Grey Wolf

At the begginning of the ACW the recently defunct East India Company offered 10 new ships and some other older ships to the Confederacy. What types of ships would be offered in this TL?

[ConfederateFly]

1862- US Gold supply split with CS, GB turns over those three ships the CS had built in England. The CSN starts with these state of the Art 48 gun Frigates. Given the HMS Warlord? as a example. the next group of ships would be Iron hulled, built in England. by 1868 Norfolk-Newport Mews would be repaired. the CS would start making Surport ships for the Engligh built Frigates, along with lots of small Coastal Ships [sloops & Schoneers] designed to Break any attemped Blockade. This spurt whould be over by the mid '70s, leaving the CSN with a couple dozen Frigates, and a gross of Smaller ships. The War inducted need to compete with the USN dieing out. The South would turn to building it's Merchat Marine. In the latter '80s the CSN whould take a look at what was going on, and start a program to replace it's older Fleet ships with new Steamer-Sail ships, And it's Coast fleet with state of the art Steam Monitors. There wouldn't be any reason to expand so this would be an ongoing process of slow replacement. So at the time of the Nicraguguan War. The CSN would have a half dozen new fleet vessals,a dozen and a half older 1860's era frigates, along with 2 dozen new steam Moniters [If they refuel in Mexico they could make it ] and 100 smaller Ships. By Duquenese


This was what I was trying to get in my TL of the Confederate Navy. What do u guys think of what he posted?

[ConfederateFly]

How would the Confederate Navy be different in the ATL if somebody like William Yancy or David Yulee would be Sec. of the Navy?

[ConfederateFly]

1862- US Gold supply split with CS, GB turns over those three ships the CS had built in England. The CSN starts with these state of the Art 48 gun Frigates. Given the HMS Warlord? as a example. the next group of ships would be Iron hulled, built in England. by 1868 Norfolk-Newport Mews would be repaired. the CS would start making Surport ships for the Engligh built Frigates, along with lots of small Coastal Ships [sloops & Schoneers] designed to Break any attemped Blockade. This spurt whould be over by the mid '70s, leaving the CSN with a couple dozen Frigates, and a gross of Smaller ships. The War inducted need to compete with the USN dieing out. The South would turn to building it's Merchat Marine. In the latter '80s the CSN whould take a look at what was going on, and start a program to replace it's older Fleet ships with new Steamer-Sail ships, And it's Coast fleet with state of the art Steam Monitors. There wouldn't be any reason to expand so this would be an ongoing process of slow replacement. So at the time of the Nicraguguan War. The CSN would have a half dozen new fleet vessals,a dozen and a half older 1860's era frigates, along with 2 dozen new steam Moniters [If they refuel in Mexico they could make it ] and 100 smaller Ships. By Duquense

Also How would the Confederate Navy be like in the ATL if David Yulee or William Lowdes Yancy is picked to be the Secretary of Navy?

[ConfederateFly]

Quote:
1862- US Gold supply split with CS, GB turns over those three ships the CS had built in England. The CSN starts with these state of the Art 48 gun Frigates. Given the HMS Warlord? as a example. the next group of ships would be Iron hulled, built in England. by 1868 Norfolk-Newport Mews would be repaired. the CS would start making Surport ships for the Engligh built Frigates, along with lots of small Coastal Ships [sloops & Schoneers] designed to Break any attemped Blockade. This spurt whould be over by the mid '70s, leaving the CSN with a couple dozen Frigates, and a gross of Smaller ships. The War inducted need to compete with the USN dieing out. The South would turn to building it's Merchat Marine. In the latter '80s the CSN whould take a look at what was going on, and start a program to replace it's older Fleet ships with new Steamer-Sail ships, And it's Coast fleet with state of the art Steam Monitors. There wouldn't be any reason to expand so this would be an ongoing process of slow replacement. So at the time of the Nicraguguan War. The CSN would have a half dozen new fleet vessals,a dozen and a half older 1860's era frigates, along with 2 dozen new steam Moniters [If they refuel in Mexico they could make it ] and 100 smaller Ships.
By Duquense

Also How would the Confederate Navy be like in the ATL if David Yulee or William Lowdes Yancy is picked to be the Secretary of Navy?

[Straha]

I added part 2 of the timeline so look at it

[ConfederateFly]

What do u think of my above post?

[Straha]

pretty good

[ConfederateFly]

Also How would the Confederate Navy be like in the ATL if David Yulee or William Lowdes Yancy is picked to be the Secretary of Navy?

[ConfederateFly]

Also How would the Confederate Navy be like in the ATL if David Yulee or William Lowdes Yancy is picked to be the Secretary of Navy?

[ConfederateFly]

Is anybody still posting

[Straha]

yeah but I don't know jack about the CSA's navy but if you like I can suggest what the foreing policy would be like...

[ConfederateFly]

That sounds fine? Also does anybody know about the C.S.A. navy besides me? Have you looked at the Confederate Superpower thread?

[Straha]

I took a look

[ConfederateFly]

You said you were going to post the forign and political ascepts with David Yulee and William Lowdes Yancy?

[Straha]

they might help the CSA take cuba.. thats all I cnasay I have no clue about those 2 guys you mentioned.

[ConfederateFly]

David Yulee was a Senator in the C.S.A. from Florida and former interim Secretary of the Navy in the United States. William Lowdes was a C.S.A. senator from Alabama and one of the 1st commissioners to Europe. They were both considered one of the Right Wing Radicals who wanted to reopen the Slave Trade along with Robert Barnwell Rhett and Louis Trezavant Wigfall. They were considered to radical for any govermental positions in Davis's cabinet. According to that what would the Confederate foreign policy, constituion, and Navy look like with them in some kind of High position?

[Straha]

a more conservative CSA would result

[ConfederateFly]

If they had there way would there be at the Constitutional Convention would there be a slave trade and I think if they came to power I think the Confederacy would be more Internationalist involved in the Far East, Africa, and the Middle East. Could you make a TL out of that?

[Straha]

a slave trade from brazil or cuba yes. Maybe the CSA would get involved in WWI and score some ottoman or german colonies??

[ConfederateFly]

I was thinkin of maybe a Confederate/German alliance in both WW 1 and 2? They lose in WW 1 . In world War 2 a frienship is developed between Hitler and President Strom Thurmond with both hating blacks and Hitler says he don't have a problem with the Confederate Jews because they had nothing to do with the German and Confederate downfall in WW 1 and are superior to the German Jews. They still lose WW 2, but instead of Hitler killing himself he goes into exile in the Confederacy after a secret rendevous with a Confederate Submarine. Between 1862- 1893 the Confederacy would be involved in Spainish-Confederate War 1871-1873, Japenese Civil War(not directly)1877, Confederate-Nicragugian War 1893. By the year 1900 they would have the originial C.S.A., Arizona Terr., Indian Terr., the Northern Mexican states of Baja Cali, Sonora, Chiuhuhua, Coahulia, Tampulias, Neuvo Leon, the Phillipines, the African colony of Angola, the Japenese port of Yakisoto, and the Chinese port of Shung-Li. The Slave Trade will be ended in 1918 after the end of WW 1. Gradual Emancipation will be forced in a time period of 25 years starting in 1919. Join U.N. IN 1949. Join Eastern Bloc Countires in 1950. The Confederacy will covertly help North Korea and North Vietnam in there wars w/ the U.S. Also will be involved openly by sending troops, tanks, artillery, and ships during the Soviet-Afghan War supportinf the Soviets. After Soviet Collapse involved in Persian Gulf War allied with the U.S. Join NATO in 1993. Involved in Somalia and Bosnia/Herzgovina. Formed relationship w/ Iraq after Persian Gulf War. Sept 11, 2001 Terriost attack on the Pentagon in the C.S.A. Afghan War between C.S.A. vs Taliban and Al-Queda. Defeat Al Queda and Taliban in 2001. Iraqi War. Agter comments from Iraq saying the Infidels of the C.S.A. deserved what they got. They Go to War with British and U.S. help. A Confederate Task Force in a cave inAfghanistan capture Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.

[Beck Reilly]

By the year 1900 they would have the originial C.S.A., Arizona Terr., Indian Terr., the Northern Mexican states of Baja Cali, Sonora, Chiuhuhua, Coahulia, Tampulias, Neuvo Leon, the Phillipines, the African colony of Angola, the Japenese port of Yakisoto, and the Chinese port of Shung-Li. The Slave Trade will be ended in 1918 after the end of WW 1. Gradual Emancipation will be forced in a time period of 25 years starting in 1919. Join U.N. IN 1949. Join Eastern Bloc Countires in 1950. The Confederacy will covertly help North Korea and North Vietnam in there wars w/ the U.S. Also will be involved openly by sending troops, tanks, artillery, and ships during the Soviet-Afghan War supportinf the Soviets. After Soviet Collapse involved in Persian Gulf War allied with the U.S. Join NATO in 1993. Involved in Somalia and Bosnia/Herzgovina. Formed relationship w/ Iraq after Persian Gulf War. Sept 11, 2001 Terriost attack on the Pentagon in the C.S.A. Afghan War between C.S.A. vs Taliban and Al-Queda. Defeat Al Queda and Taliban in 2001. Iraqi War. Agter comments from Iraq saying the Infidels of the C.S.A. deserved what they got. They Go to War with British and U.S. help. A Confederate Task Force in a cave inAfghanistan capture Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.

Hold on...

1) Confederacy is never going to have Coahulia, Tampulias, Neuvo Leon, the Phillipines, or the African colony of Angola for several reasons. First, you have the Mexican purchase WAY too big. Second, at the time the CSA could defeat the Spanish, they won't be ablt to take all the Asian colonies (incl. the Philippines). The CSA is never going to surpass the USA in the Pacific. Just ain't gonna happen. Third, there's no way in hell the world is going to let the CSA gain a colony in Africa, unless its to deport freed slaves to. And even then, it's pushing it.

2) The actual course that the CSA would take would be almost exactly that of the US. In fact, in all probability, their similarities would be so great that they'd become tight allies. They're NOT going to join the Warsaw Pact. Especially after being allied with Hitler. Don't forget that Hitler, assured of his own 'Aryan Supremecy' thought WAY WAY WAY more of the British than the Russians. You wouldn't see an ally of his allying with the USSR.

[ConfederateFly]

Would there be a Confederate Coast Guard? Confederate Merchant Marine? Confederate Naval Brigade or Naval Expeditionary Force?

[ConfederateFly]

Would there be a Confederate Coast Guard? Confederate Merchant Marine? Confederate Naval Brigade or Naval Expeditionary Force?

[ConfederateFly]

Is anybody still posting?

[Straha]

a confederate coast guard seems likely but the others are harder ot see

[ConfederateFly]

Since they might not have a very big navy they would call it Coast Police than being called the Coast Guard?

[Straha]

I always liked the name coast squad myself....

[ConfederateFly]

If the Confederates got the port of Guyamas in Sonora after they purchased it and Baja Cali and Chiuhuhua how would they structure their naval forces with a pacific, carribbean, atlantic ports and Mississippi river? Discuss each type of naval force(Navy, Marines, Coast Police, Merchant Marine).

[ConfederateFly]

If the Confederates got the port of Guyamas in Sonora after they purchased it and Baja Cali and Chiuhuhua how would they structure their naval forces with a pacific, carribbean, atlantic ports and Mississippi river? Discuss each type of naval force(Navy, Marines, Coast Police, Merchant Marine).

[ConfederateFly]

This is during the Spanish-Confederate War 1873
The ships the Confederacy has are pretty much the same as in the ACW it has a total between 150 and 200 ships. It is a motley collection of brigs, schooners auxiilaries, coastal ironclads, seagoing ironclads, commerce raiders, auxillary cruisers.

Confederate James River Squadron-20 ships: Commanded by Flag Officer Josiah Tattanal, flagship CSS Virginia II and other notable ship CSS Fredricksburg

Confederate Atlantic Squadron-25 ships: Commanded by Admiral Rapheal Semmes, Flagship the seagoing ironclad ram CSS Alabama II and other notable ship the former commerce raider CSS Florida

Confederate Gulf of Mexico Squadron-27 ships: Commanded by Admiral Franklin Buchannon, Flagship CSS Stonewall other notable ship the coastal ironclad CSS Tennessee

Confederate Pacific Flotilla-13 ships: Commanded by Flag Officer James Waddel, Flagship CSS Shenandoah other notable ship CSS Arizona and the ironclad ram that was built in Scotland nicnamed the Scottish Sea Monster CSS Mississippi

Confederate Mississippi River Flotilla-22 ships: Commanded by Flag Officer Catseby Jones, Flagship CSS Louisiana other notable ships the ironclad CSS Arkansas and the gunboat CSS Queen of the West

The Confederate Coast Police would be made up would be made up of tugs, auxillary gunboats, brigs, and schooners with moast having only 1 gun. The Confederate Marines would be stationed on some ships and others in coastal garrissons. The Confederate Merchant Marine is made up of ships the Confederacy bought from private owners of privateers and former blockade runners. They also had some ships built in Europe.

[Straha]

I wonder why theres not a CSS Lee ship

[David S Poepoe]

If that is the extent of the Confederate Navy in 1873 then it is bound to be defeated in any war with Spain in 1873. The Spanish have six seagoing ironclads (3 broadside ironclads and 3 centre battery ironclads), 5 frigates and 3 corvettes. If the Spanish Navy of OTL 1873 gave the US pause of going to war then, the Confederate Navy will be in the same position.

[ConfederateFly]

Well the Confederates have a quiet a few ships too! They have all 5 of the Seagoing ironclads ordered in England, France, and Scotland, They have the 4 corvettes ordered from France, They have the 2 iron hulled screw steamers bought by Maury they are the CSS Shanghai keeping its old name instead of naming it the Georgia II and the CSS Japan keeping its old name instead of naming it the Georgia. The tiny Pacific Flotilla which is heading to the Phillipines has the CSS Shenandoah, CSS Mississippi which is the seagoing ironclad ram built in Scotland nicknamed the Scottish Sea Monster, One of the French Rams the CSS Texas, The CSS Florida the former commerce raider, and the new coastal ironclad the CSS Arizona which is named after the Confederate Arizona Terr., which is pulled by 2 auxillaryu tugs armed with 1 gun each, 2 of the French corvettes ordered by the Confederacy, and 6 lightly armored auxillary gunboats The confederacy has a total of 22 coastal ironclads

[NHBL]

What ships would the Confederate Navy consist of from 1862(the end of the ACW)-1893(Confederate-Nicragugian War where the pro-confederate goverment is attacked by Nicragugian rebels, Costa Rica, and Guatemala)? Describe the ship types and what they look like? Also there leaders?

One possibility:
The confereeracy realizes that a Union blockade could have serious consequences, and focusses on coast defence ships-and submarines as they evolve. In addition, unless they are regulated by some sort of disarmamnet treaty, river forces will reach a level never seen in OTL, considering the rivers available.
Also look to extensive mine warfare coming up.
There would also be commerce raiders, but I'd be truely surprised if they can manage a true battlefleet. On the other hand, the North may well be building a new navy. The ships called, in OTL, "Dreadnoughts," may well be called "Vermonts"

[ConfederateFly]

What would they have by 1893 in Confederate-Nicragugian War? What types(iron hulled, ironclads-seagoing and coastal, Coastal Police, and Confederate Merchant Marine)?

[ConfederateFly]

What would they have by 1893 in Confederate-Nicragugian War? What types(iron hulled, ironclads-seagoing and coastal, Coastal Police, and Confederate Merchant Marine)?

[ConfederateFly]

What would they have by 1893 in Confederate-Nicragugian War? What types(iron hulled, ironclads-seagoing and coastal, Coastal Police, and Confederate Merchant Marine)?

[Grey Wolf]

What would they have by 1893 in Confederate-Nicragugian War? What types(iron hulled, ironclads-seagoing and coastal, Coastal Police, and Confederate Merchant Marine)?

You have to remember that at this time the USA did not have all that much of a navy and what it did have was either geared to coast defence or long distance sailing with an exploratory basis

I don't think the CSA is going to have anything better

At best it will be like Brazil or Chile with a couple of small but modernish ironclads, a few cruiser type vessels and an assortment of gunboats and sloops.

Its not goiing to fight a major battle against anyone, but shouild be enough for coastal defence and power projection against a weak enemy, such as Nicaragua - but why fight them ???

Grey Wolf

[ConfederateFly]

B/C Confederate Filibuster Rochambeau( of the Louisianan Zouave fame) Successfully took over Nicragugua and In 1893 the Pro-Confederate Nicragugua was invaded by El Salvador, Costa Rica, and Nicrguguian rebels. The Confederacy decides to protect its investment and sends troops. Now what would the Wars outcome be, and what part would the Confederate Army and Navy were involved?

[Nosb]

B/C Confederate Filibuster Rochambeau( of the Louisianan Zouave fame) Successfully took over Nicragugua and In 1893 the Pro-Confederate Nicragugua was invaded by El Salvador, Costa Rica, and Nicrguguian rebels. The Confederacy decides to protect its investment and sends troops. Now what would the Wars outcome be, and what part would the Confederate Army and Navy were involved?

you same to be having a problem with double posting

[David S Poepoe]

What would they have by 1893 in Confederate-Nicragugian War? What types(iron hulled, ironclads-seagoing and coastal, Coastal Police, and Confederate Merchant Marine)?

If you are going to double post you should at least get the spelling correct the second time around.

That's Nicaraguian.

[ConfederateFly]

Are you guys going to comment on my spelling or answer the questions?

[LDoc]

why they hell does the Confederacy want a prodominetly non-white territory? it doesn't make sense.

[ConfederateFly]

When it is taken over they reintroduce slavery and Confederate Citzens move there and excess blacks in both the C.S.A. and Nicargugua to Africa.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

They wouldn't do that any more than the United States would ship all the freed slaves to Liberia. Slavery was critical to the southern economy, as without slaves, you'd have poor whites doing plantation labor, and there's the real possibility of revolution there when they realize that they're in the exact same spot that the slaves were before they were removed.

[Beck Reilly]

Confed, not to burst your bubble or anything but the CSA will not want a territory like Nicaragua (notice the spelling: one 'g'). There's A) no substantial natural resources to be gained, B) no monetary profit (the CSA probably wouldn't have had the industrial capacity to build a canal like the Panama Canal), and C) the rest of the world isn't going to stand for it, especially considering they're introducing slavery (check the 'Monroe Doctrine', which probably would have been modified to include interference by the CSA).

I think that your writings and ideas are lacking two things. One, I think you have to do more research into why (or why not) something could happen (this includes all the socio-economic patterns of the time). Two, I think you need to think more about what would ACTUALLY happen, not what you'd want to happen in order to have the most powerful CSA possible, disregarding the responses of other nations. Europe and the United States are not simply going to roll over and allow the CSA to do as they please, especially when they are the aggressor.

[Straha]

thats why I have the CSA lost cuba,puerto rico,the yucatan and most of northern mexico to revolts.

[LDoc]

but why would they want them in the first place? I mean they don't want to expand the slave trade as it could have negative effects on their economy. Their isn't any valuable or rich land in those areas. And if their were why would the US allow them to take them, you wold think they would be gunning for revenge and see this as a excuse.

[Commander_Williams_4]

That's actually a good point...

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

That's actually a good point...
HOLY, Thread-Necromancy ...

Batman!

:eek:

[Commander_Williams_4]

.... What?

[robertp6165]

.... What?

"Thread Necromancy"--Raising a long-dead thread from the grave.