Spain Reigns Supreme

[Hermanubis]

When is it too late?

[Max Sinister]

During the 30yr War, Spain was already too spoiled by the American gold. So we need a POD between 1492 and 1618...

[Kidblast]

You need to have kings that are fit to rule. Too many of the Hapsburgs were slighty inbred.

Also, if the Reformation hadn't occured, then the Hapsburgs could have kept their domains without futile war.

[Susano]

Spain had a world empire, yes - but what good did it to them? All that gold merely served to ruin Spain by inflation. So... maybe it would even help Spain if it had bitten off only smaller parts of what is now IOTL Latin America. Say, let the Inca remain independant, for example.

[corourke]

I feel like the absolute latest it could be saved would be around 1788 -- when Charles IV took power. He was pretty much useless. If Charles III had lived longer to continue his reforms or had a son who would do that, Spain probably could have regained great power status. I don't know about supreme great power status, but powerful nonetheless. The matter of Revolutionary France is troubling, though, so maybe that would have to not happen for Spain persist.

[Max Sinister]

Yes, reforming Spain as long as there's time, making it a constitutional monarchy... when's the right opportunity for that? Don't have my history book at hand...

[stevep]

How about this? Ferdinard and Isabella reject the crazy ideas of the Genoan adventurer Columbus and put Spanish resources into continuing the reconquesta across into N Africa. Under Charles V in TTL the Spanish took Tunis and other places in N Africa. Without the distraction of the new world and the inflation caused by its gold and silver the conquistadors, followed up by the excellent Spanish army helps dominate all N Africa east to Tunisian and defeats the Ottoman fleet. When Charles V divides his empire as too big the northern Hapsburgs gain a more dominant position in the Netherlands and Germany while the Spanish house gains the Italian lands to dominate the western Med. This leads to conflict with the Italian trading houses and the Ottomans but they prove superior.

When it is revealed that the heretic English have discovered new lands in the west - basically the Grand banks and their rich cod resources - the papacy, increasingly under Spanish domination directs the Spanish crown to secure the new lands for the 'true' church. A stronger and more solidly based Spain is able to secure control of the Newfoundland region and its rich fish resources, encouraging the development of long distance [for the time] shipping by the Galician ports and improved trade. It takes longer to reach down the relatively poor coastlines to the richer lands of the south and later still the Caribbean and the gold of the Aztecs and then the Incas. The new world empires fall to a vastly richer Spain with a much greater population base because of its considerable settlements in N Africa. [This might also mean that it has a stronger central government because the rivalry between the kingdoms of Castile and Aragon has been swamped by the larger state and local privileges overcome].

This is added by the continued religious warfare in France which helps the Spanish monarchy secure Provance and Langdouc to complete their control of the western Med. Skilled diplomacy has helped support the marmalukes [or revived them] to keep Egypt out of Ottoman hands and hence weaken the Muslim challenge in the east, coupled with continued friendship with the Austrian Hapsburgs still contesting Hungary by land.

Add in the annexation of Portugal and its colonies down the African coast and around the Indian Ocean after a problem with the Portuguese royal family and the Spanish domination of much of the known world is complete.

It will still fad over time and face bitter opposition from its rivals. In time they, even probably the Austrian house will combine against it but Spain could be the political centre of a much larger power with both Med. and Atlantic interests and a reach to the Indian Ocean. The latter will help undermine their Turkish rivals in the eastern Med.

Steve

[Iñaki]

originally posted by corourke
I feel like the absolute latest it could be saved would be around 1788 -- when Charles IV took power. He was pretty much useless. If Charles III had lived longer to continue his reforms or had a son who would do that, Spain probably could have regained great power status. I don't know about supreme great power status, but powerful nonetheless. The matter of Revolutionary France is troubling, though, so maybe that would have to not happen for Spain persist.


I agree with you, Charles III is possible one of the most effective candidates to make Spain another time a great power.

I think one interesting POD to make possible more reforms and more effective politics to modernize Spain in the reign of Charles III is the Esquilache riots ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esquilache_Riots -a link to everyone that doesnt know this episode of the Spain history) what if Esquilache realizes the so dangerous problems that his decree about dressing as hats and cloaks (because he thinks that cloaks could occult weapons and hats could occult the face a person) and he accepts the advises against this decree.

With no Esquilache Riots, the reforms of Charles III would continue very strong.

And well after Spain of this ATL when dies Charles III is a more modern country than Spain in OTL at the time of the Charles death (because no Esquilache riots, no problems for more strong and advanced reforms), Charles IV is not a clever man but with the reforms far more consolidated that in OTL he continues with them.

And well when the French Revolution happens, Spain is more powerful than in OTL because more reforms (also like in OTL Spain gains Lousiana and Florida from the English thanks to the victory of the United States in its war of Independence -and could be with a more modern Spain the siege of Gibraltar in 1779 is a succes an not a defeat , could be in this ATL Gibraltar is also given to Spain in the treaty of peace of 1783-), is possible more succesing campaigns against french republic -could be in this ATL the spanish army reconquest Rousillon- and after could be The republic after accepting the cession to Rousillon to Spain, makes a proposition of an alliance with Spain promoted by girondins , think Spain is probably in these times in Europe, thanks to all the reforms, with the French Republic the more open and intellectual country (although Spain is despotism illustrate and France a republic but probably of all the monarchies in Europe including England Spain is possibly the more near ideologically to France because the great reforms in Spain serves as an example to France in some points)

After, could be a possible alliance with France (a France Republic more moderate), with a spanish navy more reformed and powerful than in OTL in alliance with France well Nelson will have a lot of more problems than in OTL.

And after...Who knows?:)

[Kidblast]

How about this? Ferdinard and Isabella reject the crazy ideas of the Genoan adventurer Columbus and put Spanish resources into continuing the reconquesta across into N Africa. Under Charles V in TTL the Spanish took Tunis and other places in N Africa. Without the distraction of the new world and the inflation caused by its gold and silver the conquistadors, followed up by the excellent Spanish army helps dominate all N Africa east to Tunisian and defeats the Ottoman fleet. When Charles V divides his empire as too big the northern Hapsburgs gain a more dominant position in the Netherlands and Germany while the Spanish house gains the Italian lands to dominate the western Med. This leads to conflict with the Italian trading houses and the Ottomans but they prove superior.

When it is revealed that the heretic English have discovered new lands in the west - basically the Grand banks and their rich cod resources - the papacy, increasingly under Spanish domination directs the Spanish crown to secure the new lands for the 'true' church. A stronger and more solidly based Spain is able to secure control of the Newfoundland region and its rich fish resources, encouraging the development of long distance [for the time] shipping by the Galician ports and improved trade. It takes longer to reach down the relatively poor coastlines to the richer lands of the south and later still the Caribbean and the gold of the Aztecs and then the Incas. The new world empires fall to a vastly richer Spain with a much greater population base because of its considerable settlements in N Africa. [This might also mean that it has a stronger central government because the rivalry between the kingdoms of Castile and Aragon has been swamped by the larger state and local privileges overcome].

This is added by the continued religious warfare in France which helps the Spanish monarchy secure Provance and Langdouc to complete their control of the western Med. Skilled diplomacy has helped support the marmalukes [or revived them] to keep Egypt out of Ottoman hands and hence weaken the Muslim challenge in the east, coupled with continued friendship with the Austrian Hapsburgs still contesting Hungary by land.

Add in the annexation of Portugal and its colonies down the African coast and around the Indian Ocean after a problem with the Portuguese royal family and the Spanish domination of much of the known world is complete.

It will still fad over time and face bitter opposition from its rivals. In time they, even probably the Austrian house will combine against it but Spain could be the political centre of a much larger power with both Med. and Atlantic interests and a reach to the Indian Ocean. The latter will help undermine their Turkish rivals in the eastern Med.

Steve

Actually, that might have been more likely than Spain expanding in North America right after 1492. Also, I would think not expelling the Jews could help Spain retain a merchant class.

[Wendell]

When is it too late?
As soon as Napoleon invades.

[Condottiero]

I agree with you, Charles III is possible one of the most effective candidates to make Spain another time a great power.

I think one interesting POD to make possible more reforms and more effective politics to modernize Spain in the reign of Charles III is the Esquilache riots ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esquilache_Riots -a link to everyone that doesnt know this episode of the Spain history) what if Esquilache realizes the so dangerous problems that his decree about dressing as hats and cloaks (because he thinks that cloaks could occult weapons and hats could occult the face a person) and he accepts the advises against this decree.

With no Esquilache Riots, the reforms of Charles III would continue very strong.

And well after Spain of this ATL when dies Charles III is a more modern country than Spain in OTL at the time of the Charles death (because no Esquilache riots, no problems for more strong and advanced reforms), Charles IV is not a clever man but with the reforms far more consolidated that in OTL he continues with them.

And well when the French Revolution happens, Spain is more powerful than in OTL because more reforms (also like in OTL Spain gains Lousiana and Florida from the English thanks to the victory of the United States in its war of Independence -and could be with a more modern Spain the siege of Gibraltar in 1779 is a succes an not a defeat , could be in this ATL Gibraltar is also given to Spain in the treaty of peace of 1783-), is possible more succesing campaigns against french republic -could be in this ATL the spanish army reconquest Rousillon- and after could be The republic after accepting the cession to Rousillon to Spain, makes a proposition of an alliance with Spain promoted by girondins , think Spain is probably in these times in Europe, thanks to all the reforms, with the French Republic the more open and intellectual country (although Spain is despotism illustrate and France a republic but probably of all the monarchies in Europe including England Spain is possibly the more near ideologically to France because the great reforms in Spain serves as an example to France in some points)

After, could be a possible alliance with France (a France Republic more moderate), with a spanish navy more reformed and powerful than in OTL in alliance with France well Nelson will have a lot of more problems than in OTL.

And after...Who knows?:)

I agree with your ideas, we could even see a successful reconquest of Sardinia.