Sea of Africa

[DominusNovus]

I created a sea in Africa by damming up the Congo and forcing it to fill up its basin and flow northward, expanding lake Chad, as has been suggested by some climate engineers (for a timeline in the ASB section). So, lets assume that this naturally happened some time in the past. The inland sea might flow out through Nigeria, Niger, or maybe even Libya (thats the one thats the most fun). If it does, we get, instead of a sea, a huge lake.

So, what're the effects?

[Max Sinister]

Said thread, BTW, is at http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=29928

Results? Hm, we lose about one or two million sq km of rainforest at the Congo, which is bad. :( OTOH, the Sahara will be much smaller. Civilizations could rise all around the Sea of Chad.

Details? Difficult to tell, other than "everything will be different, except by accident or if it can't".

[Susano]

That loss of rain forest is bad... it could maybe effect the oxygen content in the atmosphere, maybe? So, depending on how early the sea comes to pass, maybe wed see another evolution path...

[DominusNovus]

That loss of rain forest is bad... it could maybe effect the oxygen content in the atmosphere, maybe? So, depending on how early the sea comes to pass, maybe wed see another evolution path...
Lets assume that it happens in the recent past, within the last few thousand years. So, there'll still be humans around.

[Shadow Knight]

I can see an interesting civilization building up along the north coast. Trading with the Egyptians, the Nubians, etc. The southern coast would probably face the same types of problems the sub-saharan civilizations faced in OTL, but if they became a fishing people they would certaintly come into contact with the civilization(s) on the north shore and through them to the mediterranean cultures.

Without knowing the wind patterns, etc. I don't know how much this additional water will help/hinder the expansion of the Sahara.

[DominusNovus]

Without knowing the wind patterns, etc. I don't know how much this additional water will help/hinder the expansion of the Sahara.
Well, the trade winds around the equater blow from the north/south-east into the equater.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/Global_Wind_Systems.jpg

However, there are other winds that come into play. In July, particularly, the wind will blow from the south over the African Sea into the Sahara, bringing a rainy season, at least to the southern regions, such as those south of the Hoggar, Azbine, and Tibesti mountains (all near the southern part of the desert).

[Nik]

Hard to see on that scale, but looks like it could rob the Western Nile's feeders. That would have *interesting* consequences for Egypt...

Hmm: Outflow would probably be via the Niger, as that follows an Aulacogen, a rift-valley left over from Atlantic's formation. It could have a waterfall to rival Niagra & Victoria combined...

I suspect the ancients would have considered a canal from Med Southwards...

Also, I'm worried that Northern branch of lake would suffer like Aral Sea. D'uh, how much loose sand is there in our Sahara ?? It would end up in the lake...

Also there'd be uncounted billions of lake flies every hatch !!!!!

[DominusNovus]

Hard to see on that scale, but looks like it could rob the Western Nile's feeders. That would have *interesting* consequences for Egypt...
No, its not that far east. Shouldn't take anything that would go to the nile. Only rivers that feed the Congo.

Hmm: Outflow would probably be via the Niger, as that follows an Aulacogen, a rift-valley left over from Atlantic's formation. It could have a waterfall to rival Niagra & Victoria combined...
Yeah, thats the most likely, but not the most fun. :D

I suspect the ancients would have considered a canal from Med Southwards...

Also, I'm worried that Northern branch of lake would suffer like Aral Sea. D'uh, how much loose sand is there in our Sahara ?? It would end up in the lake...

Also there'd be uncounted billions of lake flies every hatch !!!!!
The sand shouldn't be a problem, especially if there's a river for it to flow out. Plus, there's mountains between the lake and most of the Sahara. Plus, the areas around it should quickly host at least grasses, I would think, which should hold alot of the soil in place, until larger plants take root.

[SteveW]

Yep, it won't affect Egypt- the Congo and Nile are in different watersheds and thus different tributaries, and that's only going to change if you change the relief of the whole of Central Africa.

[Tom Veil]

Based on my amateur understanding of climatology, the western Sahara would be unaffected, but the eastern Sahara would, over the course of a couple hundred years, turn into Sahel (e.g., more like Dallas than Phoenix).

[The Sandman]

Now, the question: is this a saltwater sea, or a freshwater sea? I'm assuming fresh, but I suppose it could go the other way.

In terms of river drainage, you may have it feeding the Niger, a truncated Congo, and even the Nile, depending on flows at the eastern edge of the lake.

[North King]

It is highly unlikely this will affect world oxygen amounts significantly--the overwhelming majority of that comes from sea plankton.

[DominusNovus]

Now, the question: is this a saltwater sea, or a freshwater sea? I'm assuming fresh, but I suppose it could go the other way.
Should be fresh, as it flows out into the sea.

In terms of river drainage, you may have it feeding the Niger, a truncated Congo, and even the Nile, depending on flows at the eastern edge of the lake.
There is no Congo river anymore, its under the sea. The sea might join the Nile, though, if it flows to the north.

[Tom Veil]

How's this for a map of "lands known to the Ancient Egyptians"?

[Leej]

This is still ASB...
Thats the problem with this place- people seem to think ASB is just totally wacky far out stuff.
As it is in standard alternative history...humans are safely butterflied away.

[Imajin]

As it is in standard alternative history...humans are safely butterflied away.
If I recall, Dominus said...
Lets assume that it happens in the recent past, within the last few thousand years. So, there'll still be humans around.

[Leej]

If I recall, Dominus said...

Then if you recall I said
This is still ASB...
Thats the problem with this place- people seem to think ASB is just totally wacky far out stuff.

[DominusNovus]

This is theoretically possible. All that needs to happen is for the Congo to be dammed while its going through a canyon. River flows have been blocked in our history. This would be more dramatic, but it should be possible.

Besides, nobody's whining about the DBWI: Straha wasn't elected president thread. Thats far wackier than this.

[Tom Veil]

I don't think this is crazy. Just b/c a POD doesn't call fro human intervention doesn't mean that it's unlikely.
Hell, have a couple of stray neutrinos hit Earth and genetically mutate something into an African Beaver and you'll have this TL.

[Darkest]

Not ASB.

I like the map.

This could significantly bolster the chances of a civilization worthy of Africa. Sahel is better than sand dunes.

[Wendell]

Maybe in this world, the Fur people of what we call Sudan would build an Empire?

[Oddball]

This is still ASB...
Thats the problem with this place- people seem to think ASB is just totally wacky far out stuff.
As it is in standard alternative history...humans are safely butterflied away.

WTF is the matter with you :mad:

Again you are taking the sole responsibility here of deciding whats ASB and whats not. Why dont you go and piss on someone elses parade, preferably on one of your own. The only thing "wacky far out stuff" here is you :rolleyes:

The POD is not ASB at all. There is no problem of envisioning this if you go back far enough. Hell, even professional geologists says there have several times been innland seas in this area.

Tough I agree that a POP like this will change OTL completely, I see no reason why the evolution of humans should be void.

Every one else: Please continue, this is good stuff :cool: :)

[Hendryk]

I like the map.
The map is nice, but I'd rather it was done without the national borders, since such a major geographical alteration will inevitably alter human history. At the very least, the colonial carve-up of Africa will be different; at most, the butterflies will affect European history before the civilizations we're familiar with develop in the first place.

I must say this could be the basis for a highly promising ancient history ATL, with a sedentary civilization emerging around this "African Mediterranean" in the Neolithic. Or perhaps simply an offshoot of the Egyptian one.

[Leej]

WTF is the matter with you :mad:

Again you are taking the sole responsibility here of deciding whats ASB and whats not. Why dont you go and piss on someone elses parade, preferably on one of your own. The only thing "wacky far out stuff" here is you :rolleyes:

The POD is not ASB at all. There is no problem of envisioning this if you go back far enough. Hell, even professional geologists says there have several times been innland seas in this area.

Tough I agree that a POP like this will change OTL completely, I see no reason why the evolution of humans should be void.

Every one else: Please continue, this is good stuff :cool: :)
WTF is wrong with you getting worked up over my pointing out this is ASB?
As I said- if it happened IOTL the beginnings of it happening would have to be pre man, things like this take a long time to happen.
And I didn't say 'stop discussing this now its asb!!!111' (as you no doubt would from what I can guage from posts like this...), I was just pointing it out. It would be nice if it was moved to the ASB forum but if it isn't meh.

[Oddball]

WTF is wrong with you getting worked up over my pointing out this is ASB?

WTF is wrong with me? Your attitude displayed below is WTF thats matter with me :rolleyes:

It would be nice if it was moved to the ASB forum but if it isn't meh.

ASB is looked down at by many (or atleast found uninterresting), that is including me. When you declare yourself master of whats ASB or not, you indirectly look down on what others might think. Atleast what will happen is that interessting TL's are put in threads were quite a few wont look.

Thats the problem with this place- people seem to think ASB is just totally wacky far out stuff.
As it is in standard alternative history...humans are safely butterflied away.

WTF is the point of posts like that? If you dont like it, just ignore it. I do it on a regular basis. ;) This is also a good example of you trying to impose your ASB view on others. Myself and also other posters in this thread seems to think you are wrong.

Attitudes like yours only lead to people avoiding posting their POD's :( Its easy to think that just because a person have "more than 1000" posts, he/she is a authorative person. IMO it should be more important what those posts have contained.


Thats why Im reacting, and if you have any kind of memory, this aint the first time you have decided for yourself that others work are ASB.

[Shadow Knight]

The map is nice, but I'd rather it was done without the national borders,...

Your wish is granted:

[Oddball]

I created a sea in Africa by damming up the Congo and forcing it to fill up its basin and flow northward, expanding lake Chad,

Have you used actual contourlines here, or are you just guessing?

Im trying to dig out some geological material Iv seen on this subject, but I cant locate it ATM :(

[Shadow Knight]

Maybe this is the world as we would have seen it around 2000 BC:

[Hendryk]

Your wish is granted:
Ah yes, much better. Now one can more easily visualize possible civilizational developments in Africa. I'm a complete layman when it comes to climatology but my guess is that what in OTL is Libya would have about the same climate as the Deccan plateau in India, making it conducive to the development of sedentary cultures.

Now let's see how things would turn out around this African Mediterranean. Will we see a Roman-style empire centered around it? A network of Hellenistic-style city-states and petty kingdoms? Two or more contending civilizations?

[Shadow Knight]

Ah yes, much better.

Glad to help.


Now one can more easily visualize possible civilizational developments in Africa. I'm a complete layman when it comes to climatology but my guess is that what in OTL is Libya would have about the same climate as the Deccan plateau in India, making it conducive to the development of sedentary cultures.

Depends I guess on high those mountains to the north of the African inner sea are. Either way I'd still expect that the Egyptians would still dominate that region (maybe even expand a little more permanently in that direction if farming/ranching can be implemented).


Now let's see how things would turn out around this African Mediterranean. Will we see a Roman-style empire centered around it? A network of Hellenistic-style city-states and petty kingdoms? Two or more contending civilizations?

If the area receives a lot of Egyptian influence you might see one or two contending civilizations that try to emulate the power of the pharoah, else a network of small city-states with maybe a Carthage like power dominating it (trade and sea power with a small army).

[Leej]

WTF is wrong with me? Your attitude displayed below is WTF thats matter with me :rolleyes:
LOL, you are the one with the attitude man..


ASB is looked down at by many (or atleast found uninterresting), that is including me. When you declare yourself master of whats ASB or not, you indirectly look down on what others might think. Atleast what will happen is that interessting TL's are put in threads were quite a few wont look.

...I declare myself master of ASB?
I think you are confusing me with someone else (who I have never seen...).

The thing is ASB shouldn't be looked down on by many, it isn't just silly stuff like 'WI all Frenchmen suddenly turned into goats!' and ISOTs even though many (mainly newbies like you I suppose) seem to think that is all it is. With a attitude like that why bother with any sub forums.


WTF is the point of posts like that? If you dont like it, just ignore it. I do it on a regular basis. ;) This is also a good example of you trying to impose your ASB view on others. Myself and also other posters in this thread seems to think you are wrong.

Are you just trolling or are you really this ignorant?
I am perfectly entitled to a POV.

Attitudes like yours only lead to people avoiding posting their POD's :( Its easy to think that just because a person have "more than 1000" posts, he/she is a authorative person. IMO it should be more important what those posts have contained.

And you are making a great start here.

Thats why Im reacting, and if you have any kind of memory, this aint the first time you have decided for yourself that others work are ASB.
Of course it isn't. Did I ever claim it was? I think you'll find quite a lot of posters at one time or another will have said something is ASB.

[DominusNovus]

The map is nice, but I'd rather it was done without the national borders, since such a major geographical alteration will inevitably alter human history. At the very least, the colonial carve-up of Africa will be different; at most, the butterflies will affect European history before the civilizations we're familiar with develop in the first place.

I must say this could be the basis for a highly promising ancient history ATL, with a sedentary civilization emerging around this "African Mediterranean" in the Neolithic. Or perhaps simply an offshoot of the Egyptian one.
Yeah, I just kept the borders because it was a rough draft, and they're handy to have around while I'm messing around with the map.

[DominusNovus]

Have you used actual contourlines here, or are you just guessing?

Im trying to dig out some geological material Iv seen on this subject, but I cant locate it ATM :(
I tired to follow the elevation contours as best as possible. Google "africa map elevation" and you should find some helpful maps.

[Hendryk]

I tried to come up with a rough idea of Africa's vegetative patterns in TTL. Does this look remotely accurate?
Kaki: temperate and cold forest
Purple: Mediterranean vegetation
Yellow: desert
Orange: grassland and dry savannah
Light green: forest and prairie
Dark green: rainforest
(You may correct and improve as needed)

[Oddball]

LOL, you are the one with the attitude man..

Yepp, Iv got an attitude towards YOU

...I declare myself master of ASB?
I think you are confusing me with someone else (who I have never seen...)

Not the least confused, nope

The thing is ASB shouldn't be looked down on by many, it isn't just silly stuff like 'WI all Frenchmen suddenly turned into goats!' and ISOTs even though many (mainly newbies like you I suppose) seem to think that is all it is. With a attitude like that why bother with any sub forums.

Well, Im not the only here that thinks this aint ASB ;)

mainly newbies like you I suppose

Oh, I did not see that one coming. :rolleyes:

So Im a newbie? I think you might have confused numbers of posts with time spent here.

Are you just trolling or are you really this ignorant?

Takes one to know one, I guess

Im not the one judging others work

Yes you are

I think you'll find quite a lot of posters at one time or another will have said something is ASB.

Id like to see examples of that, atleast who does so repeatedly and when its not valid. Even tough Im supposed to be a "newbie," Iv read more or less every post in the two AHD forums the last 1,5 year, and strangly, you have made an expression :rolleyes:

Sadly very few members ever opose to those handfull of your kind that thinks they know it all.

[Shadow Knight]

Red, Leej, could you guys maybe take your arguing to PM or something and leave the thread for discussions about the 'African Sea'?

The vegetation scheme looks good Hendryk, it just reaffirms my position that the north end of the 'sea' would probably be the area to rise to a civilization as it would be more able to support agriculture than the tropical rainforest regions.

[Leej]

Red, Leej, could you guys maybe take your arguing to PM or something and leave the thread for discussions about the 'African Sea'?

I plan to ignore him now.
I usually only give such idiots a post or two out of politeness, if they persist- Well replying to them is what such trolls want.

[Oddball]

Red, Leej, could you guys maybe take your arguing to PM or something and leave the thread for discussions about the 'African Sea'?

I appologise, :o and will stop the discussion from my part without last word-phrases such as Leej's...:rolleyes:

[DominusNovus]

As I said- if it happened IOTL the beginnings of it happening would have to be pre man, things like this take a long time to happen.
No, it could happen relatively recently, though its unlikely, I'll admit. Like I said, block off the Congo well enough, and it happens. Sure, it'd require a geologic event in all likelyhood, an earthquake to collapse the canyon, or, better yet, a volcano close enough to the canyon to block it off. But it could still happen within the timespan of human civilization. And, if we wanted to extend the limit back to the origins of the species, we get a hundred thousand or two years to work with. Plenty of time for a river to be blocked.

[Oddball]

But it could still happen within the timespan of human civilization. And, if we wanted to extend the limit back to the origins of the species, we get a hundred thousand or two years to work with. Plenty of time for a river to be blocked.

Im not so sure about your estimate of timespan. IMHO you need to have a geological POP to make this work, and then human lifespan is just to narrow.

But constructing a geological POP a couple of million years ago, and then saying the lake is there when humans start to evolve is no problem

[DominusNovus]

I tried to come up with a rough idea of Africa's vegetative patterns in TTL. Does this look remotely accurate?
Kaki: temperate and cold forest
Purple: Mediterranean vegetation
Yellow: desert
Orange: grassland and dry savannah
Light green: forest and prairie
Dark green: rainforest
(You may correct and improve as needed)
Well, looks pretty good, though you've got the nile running west of lake nassar (though the lake itself won't exist at this point in time), I'd say don't worry about the nile, its so narrow a strip that it wouldn't show up on a map of africa.

Here's a climate map of Africa, for everyons' reference.
http://www.worldbook.com/wc/assets/around_world_gfx/africa_climate.gif

[Oddball]

Here is a excellent link to how climate on fictional/alternate continents could be like. Very informative I think

http://www.cix.co.uk/~morven/worldkit/climate.html

Btw, the rest of those pages are worth a look also :)

[DominusNovus]

Im not so sure about your estimate of timespan. IMHO you need to have a geological POP to make this work, and then human lifespan is just to narrow.

But constructing a geological POP a couple of million years ago, and then saying the lake is there when humans start to evolve is no problem
For major changes in geology, yeah, you need millions of years. But rivers change course all the time. The Mississippi, for example, would have changed course recently (since the 1950s) had extensive engineering not stopped it. The Nile, Tigris-Euphrates, Indus, and Yellow rivers have changed course several times during the history of civilization. As far as blocking water, the black sea connected to the Mediterranean relatively recently, Sri Lanka used to be connected to the indian mainland, etc.

Just look at the earth a mere 18,000 years ago and you see drastic changes.
http://www.scotese.com/images/LGM.jpg

Anyway, the further back we push this, the less recognizable the world becomes, and thats not much fun. Its more interesting to speculate how our history might have developed if there were Egyptians, Greeks, and Sumerians around and the civilization of this african sea came into contact with them.

[Oddball]

For major changes in geology, yeah, you need millions of years. But rivers change course all the time. The Mississippi, for example, would have changed course recently (since the 1950s) had extensive engineering not stopped it. The Nile, Tigris-Euphrates, Indus, and Yellow rivers have changed course several times during the history of civilization. As far as blocking water, the black sea connected to the Mediterranean relatively recently, Sri Lanka used to be connected to the indian mainland, etc.

Just look at the earth a mere 18,000 years ago and you see drastic changes.


Yes I know, but I guess it all depends on the geological strata the river erodes one. Have you taken a close look at what is needed to stop the Congo from flowing were it is flowing presently?

Anyhow, IMHO it does not matter much when, as long as it is plausible and that it is present at the time civilization starts evolving :)

[DominusNovus]

Yes I know, but I guess it all depends on the geological strata the river erodes one. Have you taken a close look at what is needed to stop the Congo from flowing were it is flowing presently?
The plans to create an artificial sea involve damming the Stanley Canyon.

Lets just say that a volcano forms right near there and blocks off the river. Its one of the more implausible and spectacular options, but its quick and effective.

[Tom Veil]

Ah yes, much better. Now one can more easily visualize possible civilizational developments in Africa. I'm a complete layman when it comes to climatology but my guess is that what in OTL is Libya would have about the same climate as the Deccan plateau in India, making it conducive to the development of sedentary cultures.

Now let's see how things would turn out around this African Mediterranean. Will we see a Roman-style empire centered around it? A network of Hellenistic-style city-states and petty kingdoms? Two or more contending civilizations?

A Carthagine civilization could still develop, b/c the Western half of the Sahara probably remains desert. So long as there's an isolated battle between Alt-Carthage and Alt-Rome, then a great empire can result. They might not last so long, though, b/c they won't be able to ignore the African frontier the way that the Roman Empire did.

[Ian the Admin]

I plan to ignore him now.
I usually only give such idiots a post or two out of politeness, if they persist- Well replying to them is what such trolls want.

You've been exactly as immature as Red, the two of you have been overreacting to each other. And I don't appreciate you calling another board member an idiot, let alone repeated accusations of trolling to someone who's reacting to insensitive comments on your part.

[Tom Veil]

The northeast coast of Africa and the west coast of Arabia might end up as scrubland, too, since it will get rain from the African Sea. That could result in a very different Arab culture. One of the major reasons that Islam spread so far was that the Arabs knew more about conquering deserts than all the other worlds' cultures combined. TTL, Islam may never arise -- Muhammed would be born Christian -- and even that is assuming that this version of Egypt didn't succeed in defeating the Jewish Exodus.

[DominusNovus]

Hey hey! I just found out something neat! There's a geologic hot spot relatively close to the area in africa. Not really close, but hey, its on the right continent. :D

[DominusNovus]

Drew up a river course for the Libyan outlet of the African Sea. Its the most interesting one (as opposed to just hooking up with the Niger), so thats the one I picked. :D

[Shadow Knight]

Does anyone know where the nile used to flow...I seem to recall it flowing a bit more to the west than it does now but maybe that was too far back.

I only bring that up because you might just see 'Egyptian' culture arise between the two rivers and spread down south...not the most interesting in my opinion but hey its your thread and idea (not to mention your map).

[DuQuense]

Climate Map

You forgot all the small [and some -Quattra- not so small] Depressions that dot the Libya/Algeria Sahara. A river runing thru this area whould wander from Depression to depression till it reaches the Med. And lots that it doesn't connect would still fill from the increased Rainfall.

[DominusNovus]

Made a map (actually, made 3 maps). My scenario calls for the New Nile (working name) to reach the Mediterranean around 1200 BC. This map is of 1000 BC, 200 years after the POD.

The beige represents the settlements along the New Nile. They're a mix of peoples, primarily Phoenician. Many Ionians, fleeing the Dorians, also settled here, as did many Sea People. There are also people from the south, such as the Bantu, who are migrating into the area. Beige was originally the color I used for settled areas not part of a major civilization, but I didn't want to bother keeping track of that everywhere, though I still wanted to show where the settlements were along the New Nile.

The dark indigo-ish color is the Phrygians, who've expanded into mainland Greece. As a butterfly effect, I had both Corinth and Athens hold out against the Dorians. Corinth was a near run, as far as I can tell.

The red is the 21st Dynasty of Egypt. This is during the 3rd intermediary period, not a good time for Egypt.

The green is the Assyrian Empire, which I've helped along a bit. They're not quite as brutal as in OTL, since that was a reaction to serious pressure on their state, which I've butterflied away a bit.

The brown is the Zhou dynasty of China, nothing new here.

[Douglas]

Made a map (actually, made 3 maps). My scenario calls for the New Nile (working name) to reach the Mediterranean around 1200 BC. This map is of 1000 BC, 200 years after the POD.

The beige represents the settlements along the New Nile. They're a mix of peoples, primarily Phoenician. Many Ionians, fleeing the Dorians, also settled here, as did many Sea People. There are also people from the south, such as the Bantu, who are migrating into the area. Beige was originally the color I used for settled areas not part of a major civilization, but I didn't want to bother keeping track of that everywhere, though I still wanted to show where the settlements were along the New Nile.

The dark indigo-ish color is the Phrygians, who've expanded into mainland Greece. As a butterfly effect, I had both Corinth and Athens hold out against the Dorians. Corinth was a near run, as far as I can tell.

The red is the 21st Dynasty of Egypt. This is during the 3rd intermediary period, not a good time for Egypt.

The green is the Assyrian Empire, which I've helped along a bit. They're not quite as brutal as in OTL, since that was a reaction to serious pressure on their state, which I've butterflied away a bit.

The brown is the Zhou dynasty of China, nothing new here.

Ooh, ooh, ooh...is this the sound of another great, long interesting ancient tmeline with lots of butterflies and coolness I hear? :) I hope so...

[DuQuense]

120,000 BP
A Small [Arizona Crater] hits in the area of the Congo river mouth. while it doesn't do much damage, the rebervations cause a hot spot to form in the vecinity.

105.000 BP
The hot spot burns thru in the vicinity of OTL Brazzaville.

100.000 BP
The Lava has formed a dam across the Congo river a dozen feet high, forming a small lake.

75.000 BP
The interaction of the water and the Lava has formed a Dam Several hundred feet high reaching across the whole Congo Valley.

60.000 BP
The weight of the Volcano, and the Inland sea, has been stressing the Cameroon Rift valley, Over the next couple thousand years this stress will be relived in a series of Massive Earthquake. When they are over Landslides thruout the Guinea Highlands Have blocked off the Niger River Valley.

55.000 years BP
The Niger Sea overflows the last mountain pass and starts flowing down into Lake Chad

50.000 BP
the Congo Sea overflows the last mountain pass and starts flowing down into the Niger Sea.

48,000 BP
The Twin Seas break thru the northern Mountains and begins flowing to the NNW thru Niger.

47.000 BP
Having filled many of the Depressions along the way the River turns in west Central Lybia and heads NNE toward the Gulf of Sidra.

40.000 BP
Most of the Depressions between the Atlas mountians and the Nile Plateua, have been filled by Rain, allowing a Sahel to form. this is covered by nomadic Herdsmen who travel from Lake/Oasis to Lake/Oasis following their herds. there are settled fisherman along the Great River, in small villages, trading their fish, for Meat, and Leather from the Herders.

12.000 BP
ICE AGE ends, Weather patterns are shifting, the western end of the Great Sahel is drying a Little, Foraging parties are having troubles, some of the Fishermen along the Great River, begin gathering Seeds and Boardcast sowing them so to ensure they will be there next season.

10.000 BP
nomads have come down from the Nile Platuea, and settled among the tribesmen along the fertile Nile Valley. They bring with them the idea of Sowing Seeds. a Population boom begins

[DominusNovus]

I like it, but it seems a little different than what I'm postulating, if I'm reading it right.

[Oddball]

120,000 BP
A Small [Arizona Crater] hits in the area of the Congo river mouth. while it doesn't do much damage, the rebervations cause a hot spot to form in the vecinity.

105.000 BP
The hot spot burns thru in the vicinity of OTL Brazzaville.

100.000 BP
The Lava has formed a dam across the Congo river a dozen feet high, forming a small lake.

75.000 BP
The interaction of the water and the Lava has formed a Dam Several hundred feet high reaching across the whole Congo Valley.

60.000 BP
The weight of the Volcano, and the Inland sea, has been stressing the Cameroon Rift valley, Over the next couple thousand years this stress will be relived in a series of Massive Earthquake. When they are over Landslides thruout the Guinea Highlands Have blocked off the Niger River Valley.

55.000 years BP
The Niger Sea overflows the last mountain pass and starts flowing down into Lake Chad

50.000 BP
the Congo Sea overflows the last mountain pass and starts flowing down into the Niger Sea.

48,000 BP
The Twin Seas break thru the northern Mountains and begins flowing to the NNW thru Niger.

47.000 BP
Having filled many of the Depressions along the way the River turns in west Central Lybia and heads NNE toward the Gulf of Sidra.

40.000 BP
Most of the Depressions between the Atlas mountians and the Nile Plateua, have been filled by Rain, allowing a Sahel to form. this is covered by nomadic Herdsmen who travel from Lake/Oasis to Lake/Oasis following their herds. there are settled fisherman along the Great River, in small villages, trading their fish, for Meat, and Leather from the Herders.

12.000 BP
ICE AGE ends, Weather patterns are shifting, the western end of the Great Sahel is drying a Little, Foraging parties are having troubles, some of the Fishermen along the Great River, begin gathering Seeds and Boardcast sowing them so to ensure they will be there next season.

10.000 BP
nomads have come down from the Nile Platuea, and settled among the tribesmen along the fertile Nile Valley. They bring with them the idea of Sowing Seeds. a Population boom begins

Not bad :)

Nice to explain both blocking Niger and Congo

Im a little unsure about the timespan tough, but anyhow...

[Hendryk]

120,000 BP
A Small [Arizona Crater] hits in the area of the Congo river mouth. while it doesn't do much damage, the rebervations cause a hot spot to form in the vecinity.
Interesting suggestion. There are so many asteroids out there that it isn't much of a stretch to have one hit Earth at that place and time--perhaps someone with some knowledge of astronomy could tell us the odds. But we need to make sure the event won't affect the evolution of homo sapiens a few millennia later.

[Oddball]

You can also have a massive underwater landslide or earthquake in the Atlantic. This could cause a Tsunami. And if the Tsumani is big enoug, you could predict massive displacement of deposits without altering the bedrock. Thus you could have your dams placed and still keep the general layout of the continent. In addition have the event happen early enough to not effect human evolution.

[Max Sinister]

Butterflies are hard to catch, but since humans developed in East Africa, it shouldn't hurt them too much. Of course, countries and peoples will be completely different...

[AzureOwl]

How much of the new river's course is navigable? Is it posible to go by boat from the Med to the Twin Seas?

[DominusNovus]

How much of the new river's course is navigable? Is it posible to go by boat from the Med to the Twin Seas?
There might be a few cataracts in southern Libya, northern Chad, but the area of the Sahara seems a bit more level than the Nile Valley.

[Mark]

You can also have a massive underwater landslide or earthquake in the Atlantic. This could cause a Tsunami. And if the Tsumani is big enoug, you could predict massive displacement of deposits without altering the bedrock. Thus you could have your dams placed and still keep the general layout of the continent. In addition have the event happen early enough to not effect human evolution.

The sediments deposited by the tsunami would be unconsolidated and therefore easily eroded. I like the meteor causing a dam idea, but it might/would probably need to be bigger than Meteor crater in Arizona to survive the effects of tropical weathering long enough for the inland sea(s) to develop.

There are some papers on the Web about a crater identified near the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay that may help spur ideas. One paper is one the USGS website.

[Oddball]

The sediments deposited by the tsunami would be unconsolidated and therefore easily eroded.

That would highly deped of the magnitude of the Tsumami and what kind of sediments it brings along

I like the meteor causing a dam idea,

I like it too, but it would lead to changes in the outline of OTL continents, wich is something I think is important here

[DominusNovus]

The sediments deposited by the tsunami would be unconsolidated and therefore easily eroded. I like the meteor causing a dam idea, but it might/would probably need to be bigger than Meteor crater in Arizona to survive the effects of tropical weathering long enough for the inland sea(s) to develop.

There are some papers on the Web about a crater identified near the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay that may help spur ideas. One paper is one the USGS website.
Its not meteor thats creating the dam. Its upsetting the local geology enough that a geologic hotspot (an area far away from subduction zones prone to volcanism) forms at the impact site.

[DominusNovus]

Alright, here's the general situation in 900 BC.

The Dark green is the first empire to form around the Sea of Africa. The people are predominately Bantu, but the Mediterranean merchant class are the most influential, even if the rulers are natives. This Bantu empire is very young, and is just starting to incorporate the mode mediterranean populated New Nile cities.

Meanwhile, the Phrygians have developed into a martime power as the Assyrians push into their inland territories. The Phrygians are just beginning to rebound, having liberated the Phoenician cities and expanding their holdings in Achaea (Greece, but that particular name won't necessarily become popular in TTL), while also incorporating the territories at the mouth of the New Nile. Corinth and Athens are the major resistance against the Phrygians, along with a few Dorian states.

The Assyrians have lost territory and are in a decline, though they've made inroads against the Phrygians.

Egypt is still managing well enough.

Babylonia and Elam have successfully driven out the Assyrians.

[Shadow Knight]

Looks good.

No civilizations in India?

How much influence does Egypt have on this 'New Nile'*?

Perhaps a different name, such as West Nile, or if it has a certain color to the water maybe the Red Nile, etc.

[Fabilius]

It´s a good question. I think there´d be civilisations developing on the coast of the lake. They´d probably trade with Egypt, making Egypt maybe more powerful, and resistant to enemies. I don´t think those civilisations would be affected by the persians or Alexander the great directly, although hellenic ideas would probably spread down there.
Maybe an empire would unify all the nations around the ocean just like Rome united all the nations around the mediteranean ocean. So it would maybe be a third empire. China, Rome and: Congo?

But like has been pointed out in the Sub-Sahara discussion: There is still problem with wheat, or rice, or mais, what could substitute it? Also no horses. And still lack of iron. These civilisations would maybe not be a match for the northern civilisations, despite the ocean giving them a boozt.

[Flocculencio]

No civilizations in India?


There never are in most ATLs :D

Sorry- chip on my shoulder :p

[Shadow Knight]

It´s a good question. I think there´d be civilisations developing on the coast of the lake. They´d probably trade with Egypt, making Egypt maybe more powerful, and resistant to enemies. I don´t think those civilisations would be affected by the persians or Alexander the great directly, although hellenic ideas would probably spread down there.
Maybe an empire would unify all the nations around the ocean just like Rome united all the nations around the mediteranean ocean. So it would maybe be a third empire. China, Rome and: Congo?

But like has been pointed out in the Sub-Sahara discussion: There is still problem with wheat, or rice, or mais, what could substitute it? Also no horses. And still lack of iron. These civilisations would maybe not be a match for the northern civilisations, despite the ocean giving them a boozt.

Well there is always the sweat potato isn't that from Africa? Maybe a wild rice is cultivated and grown with eventually wheat in small quantities when traded from Egypt. I'd expect cattle growing in the non-desert areas of the lower Sahara (better than sheep/goats turning it back into desert).

Didn't you say there were mountians to the north? Perhaps they have minerals like iron, copper, etc. (or gold to trade for those items)?

Hmm...a Rome around this sea would make sense but you could also have several states (where powers like Egypt keep them separated so they can dominate them) constantly vying for control like the greek (achaen?) city-states do/did.

[MrP]

Perhaps a different name, such as West Nile, or if it has a certain color to the water maybe the Red Nile, etc.

Might I suggest Potamos (Greek) or Flumen (Latin) as placeholders? Though I bow to anyone who can provide a Bantu word for river. :)

I'm enjoying this TL, pray proceed. :cool:

[Tom Veil]

... Though I bow to anyone who can provide a Bantu word for river. :)...

Start bowing. The Swahili word transliterates as mto. (Just so you don't start thinking that I'm a deity and/or Kenyan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_Swadesh_list)

[Tom Veil]

Well there is always the sweat potato isn't that from Africa? Maybe a wild rice is cultivated and grown with eventually wheat in small quantities when traded from Egypt. I'd expect cattle growing in the non-desert areas of the lower Sahara (better than sheep/goats turning it back into desert)....

If wheat can grow along the Nile, then it should be able to grow along the Libyan Mto, and once irrigation techniques get good enough, wheat and especially rice will be viable crops along the lake shore.

[Douglas]

If wheat can grow along the Nile, then it should be able to grow along the Libyan Mto, and once irrigation techniques get good enough, wheat and especially rice will be viable crops along the lake shore.

If not wheat and rice, perhaps millet, which is common in the Sudan these days?

[MrP]

Start bowing.

Right you are. :)

*begins bowing*

[DuQuense]

My TL was just to show that You don't really need ASB's for this.

I put it in 120 thousand BP as that is about when Homo Sapiens Sapiens was first leaving Africa. [So they would be around]

I tried not to be to fast, about this.

I have ~50 thousand years of Nomadic Herdsmen roaming the great Sahel,
this is similar to OTL in Europe and Asia. Now I'm not sure exactly what animals these would be,
But I'm believe that Our Herdsmen ancestors interfered a lot in the breeding of the herd animals.
Maybe not complete domestication, but a early Pre stage. They probally would develop some form of riding or draft animal.

I simply called it the Great River, ?what is Egyptian for that?

I ended it in 10 thousand years ago, as agriculture was starting, as I was doing prehistory.

While the Sahara is rather hilly, Not the flat sand sea lots of people think of.
It is bounded by Mountains, east/North and west [Atlas & Nile Plateau] causing a rain shadow effect.

So the Water would flow off the Chad highlands probably somewhere to the west [there are several mountain ranges to the north and east of Lake Chad] along the Yobe River[ -IE Niagara Falls and Rapids] , Wind its way [no Nile Valley to keep it straight] thru the Hills and Valleys of north Niger, towards Algiers. as it approaches the Atlas Mountains along the Coast it would bend eastward coming out some where along the south Tunisia Coast.

Think of a Carthage that controlled such a entry port into Africa

[DominusNovus]

Excellent point, DuQuense. There is a gap in the mountains where I have my river flowing though.

According to wikipedia, nhar is syriac (as close to punic as I could get) for river, haddit for new.
Swahili has mto for river, and -pya for new.

Lets just go with the syriac for now and call the river Haddinhar.

[Fabilius]

Well a more powerful Carthage with the control of the area at north of that ocean, would defeat Rome. So what happens when Carthage defeats Rome?

[DominusNovus]

There never are in most ATLs :D

Sorry- chip on my shoulder :p
At the moment, there're a bunch of Vedic states, nothing unified.

I'm just showing major states, notice that Judea/Israel isn't on the map.

[Flocculencio]

Now I'm not sure exactly what animals these would be,
But I'm believe that Our Herdsmen ancestors interfered a lot in the breeding of the herd animals.
Maybe not complete domestication, but a early Pre stage. They probally would develop some form of riding or draft animal.

Sheep and goats might reach them to be used as herd animals. However, until horses get down to them through the Levant they won't be riding. IIRC none of the large African mammals are domesticable.

However, we do have a good medium-sized animal candidate in the African Wild Ass. These would probably be useful as draft animals and for pulling chariots as the onagers were in Mesopotamia.

[Tom Veil]

Sheep and goats might reach them to be used as herd animals. However, until horses get down to them through the Levant they won't be riding. IIRC none of the large African mammals are domesticable.

However, we do have a good medium-sized animal candidate in the African Wild Ass. These would probably be useful as draft animals and for pulling chariots as the onagers were in Mesopotamia.

With the Eastern Sahara now verdant, Eurasian domesticated animals could spread across large portions of Africa. Also, it is entirely possible that, if pre-historic Africans were in contact with south Asians, that together they would have figured out how to domesticate a larger feline. Tame tigers would be poor beasts of burden but they could hunt and protect better than dogs.

[DominusNovus]

Cattle were in the area by this time.

[DominusNovus]

Here's a new map, for circa 800 BC.

A new empire has arisen in the Bantu lands and has expanded further down the coast, incorporating the cities there. I should note that there're settlements all along the coast of the Chad branch by this time, and a few in the Congo branch.

Meanwhile, along the Haddinhar, a hybrid empire has emerged, between the Mediterranean settlers and the Sub-saharan settlers. This empire exists almost solely along the Haddinhar, a parrallel to Egypt.

Meanwhile, in Achea, Corinth and Athens, after forming a league (the Ionian League, as both Corinth and Athens are still Ionian) between themselves and smaller (Dorian) city-states, have expelled the Phrygians and have expanded across the Agean.

The Phrygians have declined dramaticaly, but many have incorporated themselves into the Phoenician cities, which has helped the Phoenicians to expand their influence. Many Phoenician colonies are built at this time, and many Phoenicians have settled along the Haddinhar.

Assyria has collapsed and has been replaced by Urartu, which has conquered Babylonia.

[Tom Veil]

I like the new map. Here's a thought: with a fertile lake instead of forbidding jungles, the Zanzibar - Ethiopia - Oman - India axis of equatorial civilizations has another western link in it. That might be enough from a Guns, Germs, & Steel standpoint to keep these nations technologically closer to Europe and East Asia, leading to an Indian or Thai civilization that could both reach Australia and set up colonies when they got there.

[Wolve]

Another possibility could be the domestication of the African Elephant...

[Flocculencio]

With the Eastern Sahara now verdant, Eurasian domesticated animals could spread across large portions of Africa. Also, it is entirely possible that, if pre-historic Africans were in contact with south Asians, that together they would have figured out how to domesticate a larger feline. Tame tigers would be poor beasts of burden but they could hunt and protect better than dogs.

Domestication doesn't work that way- you can tame a tiger, you can't domesticate one. Cats are only semi-domesticated in many ways and even after thousands of years they still aren't domesticated in enough ways to be useful to humans in the way dogs are. In fact, cats are useless other than as companions and as vermin hunters (and ferrets make for much more efficient vermin hunters than cats do).

Also the reason we could domesticate dogs so effectively is that they already had a pack structure- most felines don't and so domesticating a dog sized feline, let alone a tiger-sized one, has obvious flaws in that a carnivorous mammal of that size will be a serious threat to it's owners since there is no hierarchical structure in which the animal can see them as the "alphas". There's a reason why we never domesticated any carnivores larger than the wolf.

Your point about the more fertile climate allowing for the spread of more types of animals is a good one though- perhaps herds of horses and cattle might be able to migrate into North Africa in TTL and thus would later be available for domestication.

[Flocculencio]

Another possibility could be the domestication of the African Elephant...

Again- elephants aren't domesticable. The ones we see today are tamed or bred in captivity, not domestic and African elephants have hardly ever been tamed. They're too big and too grumpy. Hannibal etc. used the subspecies from the Atlas mountains which was a lot smaller.

So you might well see use of tamed elephants, yes, but I have to point out that there is a difference between taming and domestication.

I feel bad about being the party pooper and please believe me when I say I'm not doing this deliberately, but it has to be said that there are reasons for why certain species have been domesticated and certain others have not. Humans have pretty much domesticated all the species that are domesticable. E.g. cows are domestic but African buffalo are not because African buffalo are far too aggressive- it's a more extreme case of the diff between Asian and African elephants, more extreme since elephants aren't even dmesticable but Asian ones are more easily tamed than African ones.

[Tom Veil]

I think the reason that elephants and large cats appear non-domesticable is that we've only been at it for a couple thousand years. Give it a few more thousand, and we could see some serious genetic changes and even bigger memetic changes. Consider Orangutan Technology (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0000ED4E-491A-119B-A6B483414B7F4945&chanID=sa006&colID=12) as an analogy to what forced socialization can do.

[DuQuense]

Sheep and goats might reach them to be used as herd animals. However, until horses get down to them through the Levant they won't be riding. IIRC none of the large African mammals are domesticable.

?Why arn't they? The tell us the Asian wild Horse [as opposed to the Feral herds roaming the Americas etc.] isn't domesticable, and at the same time tell us the Domestic horse is a decendent of the Wild Horse.
Most of this comes from intermittant attemps to domesticate animals like the Zebra.

It take 4 years for a horse [Zebra] to reach breedable age, and another year for gestation. If you had asked fifty years ago, you would have been told that the fox was non-domesticable. The Russian Silver Fox growers had the time and resourses to try.
Voila,- forty [fox] generations later- domesticated Foxes. You show me any group that has tried for 40 generations to domesticate the Zebra [40 gens x 5 years/gen = 200 years]

Instead whe have Mr X trying for forty years, till he dies, his Son selling of the Ranch/getting rid of the zebras, and telling everyone how his father failed.
Meanwhile Mr Z is Setting out with a whole new batch of Zebras.

Now if this intermitten attemps keep up with the Breed Zebras being released back into the wild herds for - oh,~ 10,000~ 20,000 years- it will have a effect on the Whole population.
This is what I think happened During our Nomadic herding Years. Over tens of thousands of years, Whe reshaped the Animals that eventually, whe domesticated after settleing down as Farmers. As such there is no reason that nomadic herdsmen wouldn't have reshaped some of the African animals in this way. Just Africa didn't have the large nomadic period, Asia did.

[Flocculencio]

I think the reason that elephants and large cats appear non-domesticable is that we've only been at it for a couple thousand years. Give it a few more thousand, and we could see some serious genetic changes and even bigger memetic changes.

Oh, true enough- I won't argue with you there. But remember, all my comments below still apply since the timeframe we're talking about hasn't changed. We've still only got the few thousand years since domestication began to work with.

Perhaps I should state it this way: the aminal species domesticated so far are the only species which could have been domesticated in the timeframe available. Fully domesticating cats and Asian elephants may well be possible but only in the future- that prospect isn't applicable to the timeframe of TTL.

[Flocculencio]

?Why arn't they? The tell us the Asian wild Horse [as opposed to the Feral herds roaming the Americas etc.] isn't domesticable, and at the same time tell us the Domestic horse is a decendent of the Wild Horse.
Most of this comes from intermittant attemps to domesticate animals like the Zebra.

It take 4 years for a horse [Zebra] to reach breedable age, and another year for gestation. If you had asked fifty years ago, you would have been told that the fox was non-domesticable. The Russian Silver Fox growers had the time and resourses to try.
Voila,- forty [fox] generations later- domesticated Foxes. You show me any group that has tried for 40 generations to domesticate the Zebra [40 gens x 5 years/gen = 200 years]

Instead whe have Mr X trying for forty years, till he dies, his Son selling of the Ranch/getting rid of the zebras, and telling everyone how his father failed.
Meanwhile Mr Z is Setting out with a whole new batch of Zebras.

Now if this intermitten attemps keep up with the Breed Zebras being released back into the wild herds for - oh,~ 10,000~ 20,000 years- it will have a effect on the Whole population.
This is what I think happened During our Nomadic herding Years. Over tens of thousands of years, Whe reshaped the Animals that eventually, whe domesticated after settleing down as Farmers. As such there is no reason that nomadic herdsmen wouldn't have reshaped some of the African animals in this way. Just Africa didn't have the large nomadic period, Asia did.

Africa did have a large nomadic period- the Egyptians were nomads until the Sahara dried up, remember.

It comes down to temperamant- zebras, for example, are actually far too aggressive. Unlike horses, they are willing to bite in self defence.

Or gazelle, for example, are too speedy to herd properly and too skittish to be corraled.

Jared Diamond goes into the problems of domestication in detail in Guns, Germs and Steel

[DominusNovus]

I think the reason that elephants and large cats appear non-domesticable is that we've only been at it for a couple thousand years. Give it a few more thousand, and we could see some serious genetic changes and even bigger memetic changes. Consider Orangutan Technology (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0000ED4E-491A-119B-A6B483414B7F4945&chanID=sa006&colID=12) as an analogy to what forced socialization can do.
Thats the exact problem. Time. This doesn't give us anymore time to domesticate these animals. Cats have been around for far less time than dogs. Plus, dogs are much more social than cats. And the larger cats that are more social (lions) have a huge hurdle to domestication in that they scare the shit out of humans. Sure, we'll let cats hang around the granaries to eat the mice, but we're not gonna let lions in the village walls.

Remember, humans started domesticating dogs nearly over 14,000 years ago. We're dealing with a divergence about 3,000 years ago. DuQuenses' TL might allow for it though. :)

[Iñaki]

Very interesting thread:cool:

Talking about politic history, I have curiosity in this timeline of Sea of Africa, Carthage has been founden in 814 BC or it has been butterflied?

A very interesting discussion about domestication of animals and the new geography and hidrography caused by this new interior sea, sorry for not making comments but diasfortunately I only deffend well in the matter of politic history (and some in the arts).

So we have the Assyrians wiped out around 200 years before than in OTL and the rise of Urartu as the dominant power in the Middle East.

Hmm this will have interesting effects when the cimmerians arrive, in OTL assyrians and cimmerians destroyed Urartu, in this ATL no Assyria and Urartu is a lot far more pottent than in OTL so possibily the cimmerians after some battles against Urartu decided to go to Asia Minor that with the decline of Phirgia is more easily conquested than in OTL this can cause the formation of an authentic strong Cimmerian kingdom in this ATL?

[DominusNovus]

Very interesting thread:cool:

Talking about politic history, I have curiosity in this timeline of Sea of Africa, Carthage has been founden in 814 BC or it has been butterflied?

A very interesting discussion about domestication of animals and the new geography and hidrography caused by this new interior sea, sorry for not making comments but diasfortunately I only deffend well in the matter of politic history (and some in the arts).

So we have the Assyrians wiped out around 200 years before than in OTL and the rise of Urartu as the dominant power in the Middle East.

Hmm this will have interesting effects when the cimmerians arrive, in OTL assyrians and cimmerians destroyed Urartu, in this ATL no Assyria and Urartu is a lot far more pottent than in OTL so possibily the cimmerians after some battles against Urartu decided to go to Asia Minor that with the decline of Phirgia is more easily conquested than in OTL this can cause the formation of an authentic strong Cimmerian kingdom in this ATL?
The Assyrians aren't wiped out, they're just out of power.

[Iñaki]

Sorry bad use of the verb :o (my knowledge of English makes me use some verbs too much enthusiastically) yes it is out of power.

And about the cimmerians? :) They will be stronger than in OTL?

[arctic warrior]

If wheat can grow along the Nile, then it should be able to grow along the Libyan Mto, and once irrigation techniques get good enough, wheat and especially rice will be viable crops along the lake shore.

Found some old maps - wheat were harvested along the Nile almost all the way to Etiopia in the late 1930' ties and all along the Med coast of Africa. Another showing major grainproduction in roman times in all of Tunesia and in Libya along the coast. So wheat should be harvested along the Haddinhar.

[AzureOwl]

I finally remembered why that map looked so familiar. It’s very similar to the one in two Philip José Farmer novels I read a while ago: Hadon of Ancient Opar and Flight to Opar.

He puts an inland sea in Africa some 10,000 or 12,000 years ago that’s almost identical to this one, probably because of the underlining geography. And he puts the Opar of the Tarzan stories near the south-eastern coast of the southern sea.

[Douglas]

Bumpety-bump-bump...

Will we ever see more of this excellence, DN?

[JP_Morgan]

And bump again, if Dominus doesn't realize this thread has been recently bumped

[Max Sinister]

You could always PM him...

[DominusNovus]

Haha, hey guys. I've been away at a conference in California. This was one of the easier timelines to do since I've been just taking broad snapshots every hundred year, I guess I could work on it some more.

[Umbral]

I finally remembered why that map looked so familiar. It’s very similar to the one in two Philip José Farmer novels I read a while ago: Hadon of Ancient Opar and Flight to Opar.

He puts an inland sea in Africa some 10,000 or 12,000 years ago that’s almost identical to this one, probably because of the underlining geography. And he puts the Opar of the Tarzan stories near the south-eastern coast of the southern sea.

I remember reading those books. I got the impression that the seas were a geological fact, but that he had moved them a bit closer in time for the books. Colored my entire view of human evolution, I'm afraid.

Anyone ever read anything that supports this?

[EvolvedSaurian]

Time for a resurrection.

I like this idea.

Unfortunately, I don't have any ideas for it.

[DominusNovus]

Anyone still interested in this?

[mojojojo]

If the rain forests around the congo were underwater what would happen to the gorillas and chimps? Would they stille survive in other areas?

[Atom]

Yes, very much. Please continue!

On Ideas I would say that we should not underestimate the southerly portion of the seas, especially the east coast. The northern portion of the east coast will have easy acces to the Nile civilizations (probably Nubia), Ethiopia and the great lakes. Uganda was a world unto its own up until the 19th century and developed an advanced political and cultural life.

Also this would completely mess up the Bantu migrations. I would suggest that the bantu are still going to get the tropical crop package that they had in OTL, which will mean there likely to expand. They would then probably stick to the Area around the Sea, which would put them into greater contact with the more advanced (it's very likely they will be) parts of Northern africa.

Also I have some questions about the climactic map:
a) I think that the amount that you have labeled near Sierra Leon was not going to be Tropical rainforest that far inland
and
b)The Kalahari desert would be bigger

Wonderful TL!

[Communist Wizard]

Very good. Go on...

[Shadow Knight]

Anyone still interested in this?

Yes...


YES....


Y...E...S...

:cool:

[mojojojo]

What about the African apes , how will they fare?

[Umbral]

We may see more extinctions as human populations expand, as they will have less territory.

I take it no-one has read anything about a historical OTL african inland sea?

[Norlion]

Just to let you know I am still interested in this thread.

I am curious as to the affect new African powers will have on Mediterranean colonization and conflict.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Necromancy, Necromancy

Not bad :)

Nice to explain both blocking Niger and Congo

Im a little unsure about the timespan tough, but anyhow...

Actually, that doesn't really explain blocking the Niger.

Look at http://merkel.zoneo.net/Topo/Applet/
and play with sea level rises on the world map. That is an exceedingly imprecise method of getting contours, but it is a workaround.

The graphic attached is a 400m rise in levels. Note that almost all of the western Africa is below that 400m mark. Note, too, that there is no way water will be flowing through *Nile2, as that land is still above water.

If the entire south coast of west africa is blocked off, which is pretty ASBish, the water might end up flowing out through Tunisia, but more likely through e.g. Liberia.

However, there is a LOT of land near 400m between Lake Chad and the Niger delta, and I don't see how you could really block outflow that way.

OTOH, the canyon just upstream from Brazzaville/Kinshasa (which I assume is the Stanley Canyon mentioned above) is deep and narrow (on the order of 500m deep and 10km wide as far as I can tell). Blocking that would be incredibly improbable, but at least possible (say a meteorite of just the right size hitting with just the right angle in just the right place - one or both of the crater walls might be able to block the canyon).

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

If the water level gets up to 500m (or whatever the transition between olive and tan is), you can see you'd have an outlet through Gabon, as well.
http://www.expedia.com/pub/agent.dll?qscr=mmvw&lmap=2&hlbl=0&xofs=0&yofs=0&clvl=4&msds=EX01366C4720%24F7%2418%24D5%24B2%24F3%2418%24 D5%24B294002%21701000%214%24FF%2150%21Q%24FF0%218% 24FF%24150Tjofemfm%242C.Xgobg.%2428USX%2429%212%24 FF80Tjofemfmc%24B00%245D%24EF%243B%2411%24C0x%2497 %2499%24C0b%24A2%242E%2440%24B40001000%214%24FF%24 9DM%2150%212%24FF0000%212%24FF%216i%24EE%243F%2414 000%216%24FF%21I0&cbak=1


Going a bit further north
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there is a channel just northeast of Sibut between *Lake Congo and *Lake Chad, but it is at the same ?500m? mark as the exit through Gabon would be, so the two lakes probably wouldn't actually join?

[Oddball]

You are most likely right, that the two lakes would not joyn.

But you could have Lake Congo at 500m and Lake Chad at 400m.

IIRC Lake Congo would then drain towards Lake Chad. Lets pretend that this river is navigable and then you are almost there :cool::)

[scottrossi]

i think this is a really remarkable idea!

i do see that it has been done before, but whatever, i can't recall the number of times i thought i had an original idea and then someone else had already done it, lol.

but seriously, this is really a novel idea.

i am interested in the way that it would change, not only local cultures, but global weather patterns. i can easily see some nasty storm fronts and systems forming over the inland sea and then crossing western africa and turning into powerful hurricanes pretty regularly. maybe even in winter, because remember, it is summer in the southern sea when it is winter in the northern one. although both being equatorial-ish, it wouldn't matter much.

i say the best POD would be to have it be severe vulcanism ala Hawaiian Hot Spot type, vomiting up mountain ranges in western africa ~200,000 years ago. the hot spot could be dormant now, or active, who knows? the important thing is that it blocks the flow of water and creates the inland sea. maybe the west coast could be modded slightly, since this did start after it detaches from South Am. that way, the river flows north. the glorious second nile!

how would that affect Egyptian cosmology? and the Numidians and would King Juba still arise? the possibilities are endless, but you would need to really have a good grasp of Egypto-African anthropology and a good imagination to rework the mythology.

[Hobelhouse]

Thread! I command you to LIVE!

[Jomazi]

Necromancy, Necromancy


Now this is cool! I'd end up in the Archipelago of Scania-Denmark if the ices started melting.