German Cuisine Reigns Supreme!!

[pfeifer]

Iron Chef Sakai is Iron Chef German

Create a timeline in which German food or Deutsches Essen is considered the popular and cultural equivalent of French Cuisine OTL. In fact, while you're at it, make French food the popular equivalent of English food in this alternate timeline. (No offense to the French or English) The end result should be that, on the popular Japanese cooking contest/reality show Iron Chef, the French Iron Chef Hiroyuki Sakai is now the German Iron Chef in this ATL. Also German restaurants should be all the vogue in places like New York, LA, Chicago, even in London, Paris and Moscow.

The only rule I have is Germany cannot conquer the world for it's food to become popular. :) After all, the French didn't.

Also, no fair saying German food stinks so this timeline is ASB. ;) I've had some very good German food. Plus, German wine and beer is some of the best anywhere.

BTW, if you never seen the Iron Chef, it's pretty entertaining. Check it out some time.

[Rasputin]

(No offense to the English)

None taken. English food sucks. Why do you think we all eat curries? :p (well, everyone else eats curries, I'm vegetarian...I eat pasta)

[Anaxagoras]

German cuisine replacing French cuisine as the world's standard of excellent food should be ranked up with Operation Sealion as alternative history which simply could not have taken place.

[eschaton]

None taken. English food sucks. Why do you think we all eat curries? :p (well, everyone else eats curries, I'm vegetarian...I eat pasta)

Uhh...how are curries not okay then? I'm a vegan and I like thai green curry with tofu eggplant and basil quite a good deal.

[pfeifer]

German cuisine replacing French cuisine as the world's standard of excellent food should be ranked up with Operation Sealion as alternative history which simply could not have taken place.

Actually, it can be done. I've researched it a little bit and there is a point of departure that could work. More than one actually, but you have to go back a ways. The Germans do have as good a start as the French did. Good wine, sausage, beer and bread. It does take some outside influence though. Just like it did with the French.

[Anaxagoras]

The Germans do have as good a start as the French did. Good wine, sausage, beer and bread.

I'll grant you the beer, but not the wine. The Rhine region makes some great stuff, but the terroir of Bordeaux and Burgundy simply cannot be matched. For a POD, you'd have to go back to geological prehistory and alter soil and weather patterns for German wine to compete with French wine.

And nobody beats French bread. Nobody.

[pfeifer]

I'll grant you the beer, but not the wine. The Rhine region makes some great stuff, but the terroir of Bordeaux and Burgundy simply cannot be matched. For a POD, you'd have to go back to geological prehistory and alter soil and weather patterns for German wine to compete with French wine.

And nobody beats French bread. Nobody.

Well, we can give the French that, but the food in Germany could still be better if we work it right.

[SteveW]

And nobody beats French bread. Nobody.

I've heard that the Hungarians make even better bread, and that they are obsessed by it. And they invented the diacritics in French, so maybe the French nicked the recipe at the same time.:)

[carlton_bach]

It would take a realignment of where the upper class lives. French cuisine today reigns supreme because it was defined as the cuisine of luxury, but much of it is actually Italian. So here is my idea:

Boost Burgundy.

It doesn't really matter how, but have Burgundy beat the stuffing out of the French kingdom. 'France' ATL is the pitiful remainder of a once mighty nation, while Burgundy, from the Hallig islands to the Aples Maritimes and from Franconia to the Ile de France, takes the place of continental superpower for the 17th and 18th centuries. Renaissance Germany was a technological and cultural powerhouse before the Thirty Years' War gutted the economy and fragmentation destroyed its political influence entirely. Think printing, woodblock and moveable type, think blast furnaces and cannon foundries, armoury, pumpworks, atlases or financial policy, they were leading. This way, the most productive areas belong to a powerful, unified state while 'France' is marginalised and divoded. The Burgundian court enjoys the unique mixture of Rhone wines and Rhenish beers, Franconian freshwater fish dishes and Durch seafood, North European dairy cuisine and Italian-influenced vegetables that will in time come to be regarded as 'German' cuisine from the language in which most books on the matter are printed (mostly at the Spangenberger Offizin in Cologne, a second-generation foundation specialising in technical literature with illustrations and high-quality indexing).

As an added bonmus, you can have the English win the Hundred Years' War without English cuisine becoming dominant throughout Northern Europe :p

[carlton_bach]

And nobody beats French bread. Nobody.

Depends on what you're looking for. The French certainly are unmatched champions when it comes to light wheat breads in all varieties. Baguette and brioche have no equals - it's to a great degree a matter of local sourdough cultures, which generally don't travel. But if you want rye or rye mixtures, the Germans are your people. I have yet to see anything in any other country that could rival the moist, hearty richness of a properly made Franconian rye linseed loaf.

[The Sandman]

Why not have Austria become more interested in Germany from the get-go; maybe have the Ottomans stopped in Hungary. With Austria more-or-less unifying Germany, and with access to the sea through Venice and Trieste, you could get some interesting German cuisine.

Of course, this is all a moot point, as nothing beats Chinese cuisine at its finest (except maybe sushi, under the right circumstances).

And if you want French food to suck, that's easy: have the Brits win the Hundred Years War.

[pfeifer]

Now we're getting somewhere. Add to the mix a scenario where Catherine de Medici doesn't marry into the French royal family and bring italian influence into French cooking. Where might she end up in the German speaking countries that could help.

[Othniel]

Well lets see...if we go back to Louis the German and make Oriential Francia conquer Lorraine.. leaving them in command of the Burgundy region, and have Western Francia fall to indescion, and in some parts the English, having English cusine overtake French cusine in early dominance, and then let it go from there..

(There with a POD in 900 AD I did it!)

[carlton_bach]

Now we're getting somewhere. Add to the mix a scenario where Catherine de Medici doesn't marry into the French royal family and bring italian influence into French cooking. Where might she end up in the German speaking countries that could help.

That's not even necessary. I've done the tracing myself, the tipping point is around 1590. Sabina Welserin (1560s), Anna Weckerin, Balthasar Staindl (1570s) and especially Marx Rumpoldt (1580s) all get their 'progressive' material directly from the source, and use Italian-derived terms (carbonado, turta/e, manschoblanko, bononisch). Franz de Rontzier (1590s) already heavily borrows from French sources, often using identical recipes, but naming them by French-derived terms. By the 1620s, what little culinary literature still exists depends heavily in French terms, and by the early 1700s, cookbooks are unimaginable without alamodes, blancmanges, and gelee. Nipping the French court of the Bourbon in the bud will do the trick - Italian influence is strong in German cooking since the Platina translation of 1523.

[pfeifer]

We don't want the French to be better cooks then the English after all. ;) Here's an interesting tidbit on the history of French cuisine that I got from the web...

"But the French were largely ignorant of these things [good food], until Catherine de Medici ("MED-a-chee"), daughter of Lorenzo, Duke of Urbino, arrived in France in the 1540's to become the bride of the future King Henri II. (She would, incredibly, produce three additional kings of France.) In her entourage were cooks skilled in the ways of Florence. She brought with her also the expectation that ladies would be in regular attendance at sumptious feasts, and would dress in fashionable (and revealing) attire when doing so. Dinner, in France, was to become Theater. Not only did she bring fine cuisine - she brought the Italian banking system, theatrical comedy, and ballet. Quite a lot, from a woman which history would ultimately view as ambitious and duplicitous."

[Fellatio Nelson]

Pickled cabbage, sausages made out of meat filler and either sickly sweet white wine or schnapps that would peel paint.

That is some task.

[Flocculencio]

I don't understand why people think British cuisine sucks. A properly prepared sunday roast with yorkshire pud and everything else is excellent. I think the difference is that food has a different place in English culture as compared to many other cultures.

[Tom Veil]

Ugh ... my gut hurts....

Frankly (no pun intended), the more extreme end of French cuisine (tripe, foie gras, escargot) can go and I don't care, so long as it leaves Cajun cuisine unscathed.

I lived in Germany for a couple months, and aside from the serious overemphasis on stuffing spices and vegetables into meat products and on mustard, it wasn't very different from 19th-Century American food. That, and the Germans seem to be as enamored with 21st-Century American food as everyone else in Europe.

I suspect that the net result, therefore, is the same: fusion cuisine wins out for the masses, with greasy pizza, bland tacos, salty lo mein, and frankfurters being available in every city on the planet that has an airport.

EDIT: I forgot to add this -- I like German white wine. There's a reason why civilization has been in Trier longer than anywhere else in Northern Europe.

[Peter Cowan]

Pickled cabbage, sausages made out of meat filler and either sickly sweet white wine or schnapps that would peel paint

You mean like Chou-croute, Saucisson sec, Sauternes and Marc ?

Yes, French cuisine sucks....lol

[Fellatio Nelson]

I don't understand why people think British cuisine sucks. A properly prepared sunday roast with yorkshire pud and everything else is excellent. I think the difference is that food has a different place in English culture as compared to many other cultures.

I quite agree. The Continentals deride our food because they aren't as good as us at anything important.

Anyhow, we had an Empire to run and wars to win... food came secondary to that. :D

[birdy]

I quite agree. The Continentals deride our food because they aren't as good as us at anything important.

Anyhow, we had an Empire to run and wars to win... food came secondary to that. :D

I agree with both you and Flocc: arnt British resturants actually giving european ones a run for their money now, and i'm sure a few years back that some British produced wine beat of its european competitiors in an international competition or something.

[The Ubbergeek]

I agree with both you and Flocc: arnt British resturants actually giving european ones a run for their money now, and i'm sure a few years back that some British produced wine beat of its european competitiors in an international competition or something.

I give you that the restaurants may be good. But Britain is about as relievant to the world as France or Germany, and the wines, beh... California or Australai, maybe...

[1940LaSalle]

I'm not knowledgable in the history/evolution of cuisine, but seeing as I view roast pork, mashed potatoes and sauerkraut as the ultimate soul/comfort food (my grandmother's birth name was Schwab), I'll be really interested to see where this goes. Imagine a world where the best restaurants have the menus written in Fraktur, and the waiters all say "mein Herr" instead of "monsieur"...music to my ears.

Á bas la France! Deutschland, Deutschland über Alles! :D

[Straha]

Sausages are good.

[Blaine Hess]

None taken. English food sucks. Why do you think we all eat curries? :p (well, everyone else eats curries, I'm vegetarian...I eat pasta)

I once heard someone say the British conquered the world and created the Empire for one reason only. They were looking for a decent meal!

I hate to be critical of of any culture. But I ate English food once. Ive chewed cardboard that was more interesting. Had some UK beer with it. Now thats a different story!

[The Sandman]

Ah, the UK. Well do I remember such culinary delights as fishy bacon and potato waffles, along with sandwiches whose fillings you could read through.

I am forced to admit, however, that old-fashioned fish and chips (served fresh in newspaper from a sidewalk stand) is actually pretty good.

[The Ubbergeek]

Talking of England, someone said on Egullet that it's a bit because of some severe protestan schools. Dutch food had a 'bland' reputation also, she added. Spices and others are forbidden as 'papist,s and sinfull due to the excitation and stuff.

Maybe if it was removed, maybe it would help Germany in that case?

[Ghost 88]

German cuisine replacing French cuisine as the world's standard of excellent food should be ranked up with Operation Sealion as alternative history which simply could not have taken place.
Bratwurst,beats snails anyday:D

[Ghost 88]

Well, we can give the French that, but the food in Germany could still be better if we work it right.The food in Germany is better,the Rhine and Mosel wines make the French taste like sewer water. And know you can't change my mind on this. You bring up the experts they were bribed.:D :D :D :D :D :D

[Ghost 88]

I quite agree. The Continentals deride our food because they aren't as good as us at anything important.

Anyhow, we had an Empire to run and wars to win... food came secondary to that. :D
Maybe you had your empire,and won your wars because of your food.:D

[The Ubbergeek]

Bratwursts may have more meat (AH!), but snails are somethig very nice when well preparated.

German wines are not worth latin countries ones (and not juste France). Austrian ones are good.

And the britishes won war because they wanted new lands where they could escape the horrendous brith 'cuisine'. ;)

You can't face the truth. Beyond the limes of the latin lands, no salute. ;)

[Fenwick]

German wine might become popular if France never switched to California grapes after the vine disease ran through France in 1888. They would simply switch to another European grape, and while Californian grapes are resistant to a surprising amount of diseases, France's soil, which holds a great deal of moisture and clay, kind of cries out for a new disease.

German food beating French food I think would take some tweaking. For one it is the over all image of French Cuisine. Rich people eat French food, anyone can eat German food. I guess if a President took to the food, and enough of his friends did then the wealthy label may attach to sausages as well as snails.

[Ghost 88]

Bratwursts may have more meat (AH!), but snails are somethig very nice when well preparated.

German wines are not worth latin countries ones (and not juste France). Austrian ones are good.

And the britishes won war because they wanted new lands where they could escape the horrendous brith 'cuisine'. ;)

You can't face the truth. Beyond the limes of the latin lands, no salute. ;)
You my friend have been brainwashed,me on the other hand am completely unbiased.:D
Also German food has to be the better for your health than any other.

[eschaton]

Personally, I think all Northern European food is just about equally terrible. Of course, I'm probably biased considering I don't eat any sort of meat or dairy or eggs, but it's all so friggin bland. Even french food from what I remember is mostly distinguished by the use of offel and being extremely fattening.

Scotland should have kudos for inventing Oatmeal though. If that's indeed where it came from.

[birdy]

dunno where i'm going with this but in the 19th and first half of the 20th century, Germans moved in large numbers to almost anywhere in the world, maybe this scenario could come about through that

late 18th century- the american who likes Germany- Jefferson or Franklin or whoever tries some German food while he's in the Rhine region. whatever it is he likes and when he returns to the young US Republic he brings a German chef(s) back. word spreads of his love of German food and other rich and middle class people decided to emulate him. taste for German food grows through into 19th century. As large numbers of German immigrants arrive in the US, some open resturants in the big cities- this taste for German food spreads to some degree among the european upper classes and becomes a craze in Britian among the middle class when Victoria marries Albert.

dunno where that would lead but its the best i can do.

[carlton_bach]

I don't understand why people think British cuisine sucks. A properly prepared sunday roast with yorkshire pud and everything else is excellent. I think the difference is that food has a different place in English culture as compared to many other cultures.

Flocc, British cuisine was excellent well into the 19th century (ione of the world's most inventive and creative traditions in the Victorian era), but it was hit harder than most in the world wars, and has only been recovering very slowly. The current rise of British cooks and restaurants to stardom has miore to do with media power and language accessibility than a real quality gap - you can get excellent food at good restaurants anywhere in Europe. The real seismic shift is that since the 70s, British everyday cuisine has been improving by leaps and bounds, getting back to its previous inventive, playfuil and inquisitive habits. You can trace it very nicely by the evolutions of the 'Mrs Beeton' trademark. the original book is a delight. The 1880s and 1890s versions are increasingly conservative, and in the 20th century, disaster strikes. The recovery really doesn't begin until the last quarter of the century, with rationing and 'clean plate - clear conscience' safely in the past.

[carlton_bach]

dunno where i'm going with this but in the 19th and first half of the 20th century, Germans moved in large numbers to almost anywhere in the world, maybe this scenario could come about through that

late 18th century- the american who likes Germany- Jefferson or Franklin or whoever tries some German food while he's in the Rhine region. whatever it is he likes and when he returns to the young US Republic he brings a German chef(s) back. word spreads of his love of German food and other rich and middle class people decided to emulate him. taste for German food grows through into 19th century. As large numbers of German immigrants arrive in the US, some open resturants in the big cities- this taste for German food spreads to some degree among the european upper classes and becomes a craze in Britian among the middle class when Victoria marries Albert.

dunno where that would lead but its the best i can do.

I think this is too late. Fenwick has got it right - French food is what rich people eat. The French culinary tradition isn't actually superior to others, it is just the one in whose terms we express luxury. This meme is what needs changing, so that 'en flambe' is nothing but a local translation for 'brennend aufgetragen'.

Food history is rarely about actual food ;)

[Max Sinister]

I read that the French tradition of high cuisine was also caused by the strong kings, esp. Louis XIV of course. He was the mightiest and richest man in Europe, loved luxury, and thus wanted AND could afford the best cooks and the best food. We'd have to change that too.

[pfeifer]

Good comments everyone. I'll try to get a of synthesis of ideas put together some time today. Interesting how many comments there are about English food.

[The Ubbergeek]

I think this is too late. Fenwick has got it right - French food is what rich people eat. The French culinary tradition isn't actually superior to others, it is just the one in whose terms we express luxury. This meme is what needs changing, so that 'en flambe' is nothing but a local translation for 'brennend aufgetragen'.

Food history is rarely about actual food ;)

But the french culinary tradition is rich and developped. It's one of the grand cuisine traditions of the world. Don't let some northernos belies ye. ;)

Beside, sauerkraut vs tartiflette? :D

[Alayta]

I love sauerkraut! if it goes with mashed potatoes and a good piece of neck - really hard to beat.

And healthy as hell!!!

[carlton_bach]

But the french culinary tradition is rich and developped. It's one of the grand cuisine traditions of the world. Don't let some northernos belies ye. ;)

Beside, sauerkraut vs tartiflette? :D

Don't you think they'd go rather well together?

Anyway, since eating is one of the few things humanity has been doing from the dawn of its development, no culinary tradition can possibly be more venerable or developed than another. OTL, the French tradition was the one to absorb and refine most luxury foods simply because it was the one in which the people who could afford the kitchen staff and ingredients lived. Change that, and you have French a a minor culinary language of Europe that is adopted into the culinary 'mainstream' through the medium of its language. French cuisine is full of 'a l'Italienne', 'a la Polonaise' and 'a l'Angleterre'.

[Scarecrow]

I thought the reason the Brits built an empire was to get away from the lousy weather.:cool:

[pfeifer]

Okay, I'm going to take my own challenge and come up with a timeline for this. I'd like some help/ideas from the members though. I'd like some ideas for German recipes or dishes that would populate the menu of a high class German restaurant or Esshaus in the ATL. Good restaurant names would be fun too.

The recipies don't have to be real but they should sound good. :) Stay away from the over use of Sauerkraut. An Italian influence is good though.

[Ghost 88]

Okay, I'm going to take my own challenge and come up with a timeline for this. I'd like some help/ideas from the members though. I'd like some ideas for German recipes or dishes that would populate the menu of a high class German restaurant or Esshaus in the ATL. Good restaurant names would be fun too.

The recipies don't have to be real but they should sound good. :) Stay away from the over use of Sauerkraut. An Italian influence is good though.
The Germans make excellent veal dishes,just build off this.

[The Ubbergeek]

Okay, I'm going to take my own challenge and come up with a timeline for this. I'd like some help/ideas from the members though. I'd like some ideas for German recipes or dishes that would populate the menu of a high class German restaurant or Esshaus in the ATL. Good restaurant names would be fun too.

The recipies don't have to be real but they should sound good. :) Stay away from the over use of Sauerkraut. An Italian influence is good though.

Don't forget french, dutch and eastern europe influences, as the possibility of a distinct jewish german cuisine.

[carlton_bach]

OK

At the Goldener Löwe in Soho, the cognoscenti delight in:

Baltischer Gefüllter Kräuteraal (Baltic herb-stuffed eel, actually a herb-fishmeat farce)

Gebrannter Mandelkäse (almond cream with caramel topping)

Karpfen auf Stachelbeeren (steamed carp with gooseberry sauce)

Grüne Torte (herb quiche)

Mainzer Schinken mit Spargel und Pfannzelten (savory egg pancake with brandy-cured ham and asparagus)

Forelle in Sulz (steamed trout 'bleu' encased in vinegar-broth jelly)

Rehrücken mit Weichselsosse (roe deer roast with tart cherry spice sauce)

Heidenkuchen mit grüner Sosse (deep-fried crackers with vinegar-herb sauce)

Hirschfilet im Rock (venison baked in a salt dough crust, well larded and stuck with fresh coriander)


While the public at Boston's 'Hafenküche' prefer the more robust pleasures of:

Hamburger Labskaus (mashed turnips and potatos with beetroot, pickled herring, and corned beef)

Speckfladen (pizza-style flatbread with a bacon-egg-onion-cheese topping)

Mörserkuchen (gratin of chicken, wheat bread cubes and egg with mushrooms)

Rollmops (pickled herring filet wrapped around dill cucumber pieces, served with black bread)

Ungarischer Braten (beef roast marinaded in vinegar and garlic)


The upper-crust 'Fürstenkeller' catering service in Hollywood has a selection of:

Harzer Käse (strong, ripe cheese)

Höhlenzieger (Camembert-like cheese)

Grüne Nüsse (pickled green walnuts)

Pinucade (honey-nut-brittle with pine nuts)

Marzipane (marzipan wafers sprinkled with candied aniseed)

Apfelkompost (cooked honeyed apple puree with spices and honey)

Fastenwurst (fig-filled cake fingers, baked instead of deep-fried for the health-conscious Californians, though a more daring cook at the Goldene Gans instead uses an invert-sugar solution heated to 140°C to create a deep-frying effect without fat)

Erbeertörtchen (flaky tarts with strawberries on a cream cheese base)

Ungarische Torte (apple pie with a sugared puff pastry cover)

[pfeifer]

Wow CB are any of these real? They sound great and I haven't had any lunch yet!

[Tyr]

I'm so damn sick of everyone putting down English food.
Its a stupid steryotype on a par with 'Frenchmen all wear stripey shirts, berets and strings of garlic!!!'. English food is top 5 in the world.


For German cuisine reigning supreme.... Well beef burgers are certainly pretty dominant....

[The Ubbergeek]

I'm so damn sick of everyone putting down English food.
Its a stupid steryotype on a par with 'Frenchmen all wear stripey shirts, berets and strings of garlic!!!'. English food is top 5 in the world.


For German cuisine reigning supreme.... Well beef burgers are certainly pretty dominant....

Traditional british cuisine... Well, you should listen to what some brittons say about their own cuisine. ;) Don't fool yourself in a nationalist pride. ;)

(that said in the funny pique way)

[Earling]

The problem is that British (or hell refine it even more) English cuisine seems to be invisible to the point of dead. Atleast Scotland has a (dubious) tradition of deep fried mars bars and other such delights.

What is British Cuisine? Roast beef and yorkshire puddings? Shepards pie?Chicken tikka masala? Thai green curry? Fish, Chips and dodgy kebabs on a saturday night? Bread and Butter Pudding? Rhubarb crumble? A full english breakfast?

The British cullinary tradition, atleast in recent times seems to be take everyone elses ideas.

Ofcourse.. there are some very good restaurants in Britain, but as above, most of them serve food which isn't unique to the UK.

Still it could be worse, atleast we don't have a tradition of sauerkrout and sausage to defend. Although atleast its distinct and by and large alot of German food is very good, it just isn't very classy.

[carlton_bach]

Wow CB are any of these real? They sound great and I haven't had any lunch yet!

They are 'real' in the sense that I extrapolated them from existing 14th-16th century recipes published in German cookbooks, then in many cases added the OTL developments of 'cordon bleu' cuisine. I could probably make all of them, though, they're not difficult. Many of them are very similar to existing dishes.

[carlton_bach]

Still it could be worse, atleast we don't have a tradition of sauerkrout and sausage to defend. Although atleast its distinct and by and large alot of German food is very good, it just isn't very classy.

A lot of all non-French/non-Italian food is good, just not very classy. That's the problem we are addressing here. The foodways of most of Europe are fairly similar, a filling, robust, tasty cuisine based on available ingredients. French (and to a lesser extent Italian) cuisine has coopted the 'classy' spot, so whenever people cook for the upper classes, they give it French names and use French vocabulary to describe what they do.

Flammkuchen is pretty much the same as Quiche Lorraine, but guess which one they put on the menu. And I think the same goes for many British dishes (I'm not that conversant with French cuisine, but I'm pretty sure they hae their equivalents of pork pie, roast beef, mutton chops or funnel cakes)

[SteveW]

What is British Cuisine? Roast beef and yorkshire puddings? Shepards pie?Chicken tikka masala? Thai green curry? Fish, Chips and dodgy kebabs on a saturday night? Bread and Butter Pudding? Rhubarb crumble? A full english breakfast?



Bar the kebabs and Bread and Butter Pudding, those are all delicious. I'll grant you that we make crap coffee, bland fruit juice and our pasta is naff to say the least.

English plums, strawberries, nectarines and peaches are delicious. We make great yoghurt, if you look beyond the bland Danone or Tesco own brand stuff. Vimto is the greatest soft drink in the history of mankind (I will not accept arguments to the contrary:)). Loads of the soft drinks you drink or use as mixers were invented by Schweppes who despite the name have always been a British firm. We make an array of sweets (not chocolate) which I've only seen beaten by Denmark.

Add into the mix good Lancashire Hotpot, good quality fish pie, the Cornish Pastie, pies, Uncle Joe's Mint Balls, fruit fools, Cornish Vanilla ice cream, Balti (invented in Birmingham) and Coronation Chicken.

Last but not least, good British bitter, real ale, mild, and porter cannot be beaten. I live in Belgium now, and even Belgium only comes in at number two in my opinion. Caledonian Deuchar's IPA is the greatest beer on the planet bar none.

So all in all- you can eat well in Britain. Most of us do.:)

[Redbeard]

A lot of all non-French/non-Italian food is good, just not very classy. That's the problem we are addressing here. The foodways of most of Europe are fairly similar, a filling, robust, tasty cuisine based on available ingredients. French (and to a lesser extent Italian) cuisine has coopted the 'classy' spot, so whenever people cook for the upper classes, they give it French names and use French vocabulary to describe what they do.

Flammkuchen is pretty much the same as Quiche Lorraine, but guess which one they put on the menu. And I think the same goes for many British dishes (I'm not that conversant with French cuisine, but I'm pretty sure they hae their equivalents of pork pie, roast beef, mutton chops or funnel cakes)

Exactly!

Besides I've heard gastronomers claim that there are really only two independent cuisines - the French and the Chinese - the rest are subordinant. Which in this context makes the French cuisine just the classy end of the non-Chinese cuisine. Have Loius XIV stumble early on and have say the court in Vienna be the place everybody turns to - and pretty much the same dishes will have German names instead.

Anyway Frankfurters and Hamburgers appear much more victorious than frog legs and snails - I'd even say more delicious :D

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

[Redbeard]

A lot of all non-French/non-Italian food is good, just not very classy. That's the problem we are addressing here. The foodways of most of Europe are fairly similar, a filling, robust, tasty cuisine based on available ingredients. French (and to a lesser extent Italian) cuisine has coopted the 'classy' spot, so whenever people cook for the upper classes, they give it French names and use French vocabulary to describe what they do.

Flammkuchen is pretty much the same as Quiche Lorraine, but guess which one they put on the menu. And I think the same goes for many British dishes (I'm not that conversant with French cuisine, but I'm pretty sure they hae their equivalents of pork pie, roast beef, mutton chops or funnel cakes)

Exactly!

Besides I've heard gastronomers claim that there are really only two independent cuisines - the French and the Chinese - the rest are subordinant. Which in this context makes the French cuisine just the classy end of the non-Chinese cuisine. Have Loius XIV stumble early on and have say the court in Vienna be the place everybody turns to - and pretty much the same dishes will have German names instead.

Anyway Frankfurters and Hamburgers appear much more victorious than frog legs and snails - I'd even say more delicious :D

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

[NapoleonXIV]

A lot of all non-French/non-Italian food is good, just not very classy. That's the problem we are addressing here. The foodways of most of Europe are fairly similar, a filling, robust, tasty cuisine based on available ingredients. French (and to a lesser extent Italian) cuisine has coopted the 'classy' spot, so whenever people cook for the upper classes, they give it French names and use French vocabulary to describe what they do.

Flammkuchen is pretty much the same as Quiche Lorraine, but guess which one they put on the menu. And I think the same goes for many British dishes (I'm not that conversant with French cuisine, but I'm pretty sure they hae their equivalents of pork pie, roast beef, mutton chops or funnel cakes)

That being said, wouldn't German food have a natural advantage in foods made from fish and venison? (Having the Hanse and the Great Forests for hunting)

Another possibility for increasing the timeline would be WI there was as much tradition to German beer as there is to French wine. What if individual brewers and breweries were collected as much as vingtage years in France and the tradition of beer with food was as highly developed.

[NapoleonXIV]

A lot of all non-French/non-Italian food is good, just not very classy. That's the problem we are addressing here. The foodways of most of Europe are fairly similar, a filling, robust, tasty cuisine based on available ingredients. French (and to a lesser extent Italian) cuisine has coopted the 'classy' spot, so whenever people cook for the upper classes, they give it French names and use French vocabulary to describe what they do.

Flammkuchen is pretty much the same as Quiche Lorraine, but guess which one they put on the menu. And I think the same goes for many British dishes (I'm not that conversant with French cuisine, but I'm pretty sure they hae their equivalents of pork pie, roast beef, mutton chops or funnel cakes)

That being said, wouldn't German food have a natural advantage in foods made from fish and venison? (Having the Hanse and the Great Forests for hunting)

Another possibility for increasing the timeline would be WI there was as much tradition to German beer as there is to French wine. What if individual brewers and breweries were collected as much as vingtage years in France and the tradition of beer with food was as highly developed.

[NapoleonXIV]

A lot of all non-French/non-Italian food is good, just not very classy. That's the problem we are addressing here. The foodways of most of Europe are fairly similar, a filling, robust, tasty cuisine based on available ingredients. French (and to a lesser extent Italian) cuisine has coopted the 'classy' spot, so whenever people cook for the upper classes, they give it French names and use French vocabulary to describe what they do.

Flammkuchen is pretty much the same as Quiche Lorraine, but guess which one they put on the menu. And I think the same goes for many British dishes (I'm not that conversant with French cuisine, but I'm pretty sure they hae their equivalents of pork pie, roast beef, mutton chops or funnel cakes)

That being said, wouldn't German food have a natural advantage in foods made from fish and venison? (Having the Hanse and the Great Forests for hunting)

Another possibility for increasing the timeline would be WI there was as much tradition to German beer as there is to French wine. What if individual brewers and breweries were collected as much as vingtage years in France and the tradition of beer with food was as highly developed.

[carlton_bach]

That being said, wouldn't German food have a natural advantage in foods made from fish and venison? (Having the Hanse and the Great Forests for hunting)

Another possibility for increasing the timeline would be WI there was as much tradition to German beer as there is to French wine. What if individual brewers and breweries were collected as much as vingtage years in France and the tradition of beer with food was as highly developed.

Yes and no. Medieval and Renaissance Europe everywhere had fish and venison, and the great hunting preserves of the later modern era are in eastern Europe while the Baltic fisheries become seriously deplerted after the Schonen herring spawning stops. Germany has a plethora of good native foods - good domestic and game meat, good dairy (sheep, ghoat and cow, though predominantly cow) with a hard cheese industry in the uplands, excellent freshwater and sea fisheries, fruit, vegetables and grain in wide variety (grapes and peaches grow in Southwestern Germany's long warm season while berry fruits, apples and cherries thrive on the long sunlight days of the north) and wild and domestic honey in copious quantities. But get yourself any large chunk of Europe and you get a similar picture. 'German cuisine' would be a cultural phenomenon, not a given fact.

Vintage beer will, unfortunately, have a serious handicap. Two. First - beer doesn't last well. You can't really lay it in for future generations. Second - beer is easy to make. Any peasant can have beer. Wine takes equipment. That is why I think wine will always be the higher-status drink, though mead may not lose that position in a German-centric upper class cuisine.

[carlton_bach]

Besides I've heard gastronomers claim that there are really only two independent cuisines - the French and the Chinese - the rest are subordinant.

If you meet them again, hit them on the head twice. Once with the Qitab al-Tabikh of al-Baghdadi, and once with the Damascus manuscript of the Qitab al-Wusla.

Edit: thrice. Add the Ni'matnama MS from Mandu, for good measure. The new edition is satisfyingly hefty and should get the point home.

[Hendryk]

An ATL in which Protestantism gets butterflied away would help Germany, and more generally northern Europe, retain a richer culinary tradition than it did in OTL.

Has anyone read Babette's Feast by Karen Blixen, or seen the movie adaptation by Gabriel Axel in 1987? Interesting story of a small Calvinist community in 19th-century Jutland that one day takes in a refugee from France. After a few years, the Frenchwoman decides to thank her hosts by preparing them a lavish four-star dinner, but the locals, who have eaten nothing but bread and soup their whole lives, are terrified at the prospect. It's a great illustration of how different cultures treat culinary pleasures.

[oberdada]

An ATL in which Protestantism gets butterflied away would help Germany, and more generally northern Europe, retain a richer culinary tradition than it did in OTL.

Has anyone read Babette's Feast by Karen Blixen, or seen the movie adaptation by Gabriel Axel in 1987? Interesting story of a small Calvinist community in 19th-century Jutland that one day takes in a refugee from France. After a few years, the Frenchwoman decides to thank her hosts by preparing them a lavish four-star dinner, but the locals, who have eaten nothing but bread and soup their whole lives, are terrified at the prospect. It's a great illustration of how different cultures treat culinary pleasures.

I remenber seeing the movie.
The Frenchwomen, by the way, once used to be the most famous chef de cuisine of Paris, which only comes out in the end.
Don't see the film while you are hungry.

[Tyr]

Traditional british cuisine... Well, you should listen to what some brittons say about their own cuisine. ;) Don't fool yourself in a nationalist pride. ;)

(that said in the funny pique way)
Not sure how much of that was in jest but...
Well- I said it was top 5. There is certainly better out there (Cantonese, Italian...).

Part of the problem with the British putting down British food is the stuff they have had experience with is mostly the day to day stuff as cooked by their parents (or some other non-proffesional).
If you were to go to your average household in Italy or China or wherever you would soon find that their normal food is really not that good either (and not just due to being poor in many cases).

Also the old phrase 'familiarity breeds contempt' applies quite a bit. If you eat British food all the time you will grow to dislike it and flock towards your local Italian restaurant.

Also on a interesting note something not everyone realises - chicken tikka missala IS a British invention. There is nothing like it in India, it was invented in Glasgow.
The same probally applies for some other famous dishes in Chinese and Indian cooking- much the same as how 'pizza' as we mostly know it in its deep pan form is American.

[Gladi]

Has anyone read Babette's Feast by Karen Blixen, or seen the movie adaptation by Gabriel Axel in 1987?

Bright day
Seen the movie :D! Very funny.

And the CE cuisine is good...
Roasted duck on pomegranates with red saukerkraut (with some flour and cream) and bread dumplings (they are made too in some parts of germany are they not?) .............. now I am hungry :(

Sacher with cofee for sunday afternoon, ach weisst du etwa besser?

Oh and to fast food (and hamburgers)- Nordsee has very very good things to eat!