if you could change just ONE thing in history...

[Nekromans]

Here's mine:

Go back to a few minutes before the first ever nazi parade, and cover the street with vegetable oil. Watch them try to goose-step on THAT. Credibility goes Cilit BANG.

Now yours! yes, that's what this board is FOR, but just play along!

[Mike Stearns]

I'd distract Mr. and Mrs.Hitler for a few minuets so that little Adolf can drown in the bathtub.

[Nekromans]

Oh, Drowned Baby Timeline, eh? Nice.

BTW: Got an exam question in history today. Here it is:

Hitler: "Czecholsovakia has nothing to fear from me."

How reliable is the above source?

ANSWER: As reliable and honest as a $7 note cashed by the bank of Engalnd, and as useful as a chocolate teapot.

[robertp6165]

Here's mine:

Go back to a few minutes before the first ever nazi parade, and cover the street with vegetable oil. Watch them try to goose-step on THAT. Credibility goes Cilit BANG.

Now yours! yes, that's what this board is FOR, but just play along!

The U.S. Constitutional Convention includes a provision in the Constitution expressly declaring the right of secession.

[vandevere]

I'd save the Great Library of Alexandria. Can you imagine all the ancient classics we missed because they were all destroyed?

[Tom Veil]

The U.S. Constitutional Convention includes a provision in the Constitution expressly declaring the right of secession.
and another provision banning slavery. :p

[robertp6165]

and another provision banning slavery. :p

I'd go for that, too. Then when the South does secede, the descendants of the secessionists won't have to listen to self-righteous Yankees tell us how evil we were. :D

[BrianP]

I'd go for that, too. Then when the South does secede, the descendants of the secessionists won't have to listen to self-righteous Yankees tell us how evil we were. :D

LOL...I'll go for that!

You sound like the kind of fellow who would be in the S.C.V. ;)

[Archangel Michael]

I kill off the very first human female.

[robertp6165]

LOL...I'll go for that!

You sound like the kind of fellow who would be in the S.C.V. ;)

Actually, I am. Who would have guessed. ;) Former Arizona Division Commander Robert Perkins at your service, sir.

[ThomasG]

I give Wake Island a Radar Set and high volume air raid siren on December 4th 1941.

Wake Island will never fall as their planes will be able intercept and savage the first Japanese Bomber Wave that wiped out 2/3rds of their fighter compliment.

[Justin Pickard]

Stop the assasination of Alexander II of Russia.

[Heart of Darkness]

Well, I'd probably have to waste mine preventing robert6165's wishes from comming true. (I do love donning the blue, saving the union, freeing slaves, saving the union, and damning southerns to hell so much, I don't know how I'd live with out it. :cool:) Otherwise, I'd probably kill Lenin, or Stalin, or perhaps Marx. Try to figure out somewhat to stifle the birth of communism.

[Imajin]

Stop the assassination of Julius Caesar...

[Heart of Darkness]

Imajin Stop the assassination of Julius Caesar...

What do you imagine that would accomplish?

[Imajin]

What do you imagine that would accomplish?
Most likely some interesting butterfly effects, at the very least...

[luakel]

Possibly go back to June 28, 1914 and knock Gavilo Princip out before he has the chance to shoot, not that it would really prevent the coming Armageddon, but it might lessen it's power and effects.

That, or maybe go back to sometime after WWI and persuade Adolf to stay in painting.

[chunkeymonkey13q]

I'd ensure a quick reconquest of North Africa and Italy by the Eastern Roman Empire in the early sixth century.

[Chingo360]

make sure thatAdolf Hitler stays on his path with art rather than switch to politics.... i get enough Nazi shit against me already....:(

EDIT: Whoa, that was weird, i just realized luakel put the same thing though i didnt read any prior posts....

[Straha]

Either have the US annex mexico in 1848 or have the morganthau plan done to germany after WWII. I lean towards thE US annexing mexico.

[Hyperion]

I give Wake Island a Radar Set and high volume air raid siren on December 4th 1941.

Wake Island will never fall as their planes will be able intercept and savage the first Japanese Bomber Wave that wiped out 2/3rds of their fighter compliment.

Ah yes, Admiral Halsey. How nice to meet you. I want you to talk with your opposite numbers on Saratoga and Lexington, and move them to Wake as fast as possible. Don't worry about the reinforcements transports. If you can get your 3 carriers there fast enough, I can give you two very nice targets similar to your own ship.

[Evil Opus]

I would probably put a stop to the Holocaust. But annexing Mexico comes in a distant second.

[luakel]

have the morganthau plan done to germany after WWII.
:confused:

Why would you want that?? Seems like it would be great for Communist propaganda...

[Chingo360]

why is everyone so anti-germany:(
this is depressing....

[Evil Opus]

why is everyone so anti-germany:(
this is depressing.... What do you mean?

[Chingo360]

lol, its just seemingly every thread ive been in lately is like "ARRR! PUNISH GERMANY, PUNISH THE JERRIES!"

[Evil Opus]

lol, its just seemingly every thread ive been in lately is like "ARRR! PUNISH GERMANY, PUNISH THE JERRIES!" We need some good Napoleon threads around here. :D

[Chingo360]

Hey my countrymen beat Napoleon several times! NEAR MY HOMETOWN! Yay! Not as depressing....:)

Bluecher!

[Imajin]

Yeah, well, my country could beat up your country!

:p

[Martel]

Make sure the Visigoths have adequate food when they settle in Dacia. If necessary, smack some dumb-ass Romans around so they stop selling dogs for children.
HINT ROMANS: Don't screw the nice warrior-farmers. They really won't forget it.

[chunkeymonkey13q]

What country is that?

[Imajin]

Dacia is roughly modern Romania...

[Evil Opus]

Well, the French haven't won a war by themselves since 1443, and I think they're cowards. I'm glad the Brits beat Napoleon.

[Imajin]

Well, the French haven't won a war by themselves since 1443, and I think they're cowards. I'm glad the Brits beat Napoleon.
"Won a war by themselves"? How often does that happen at all?

[Straha]

:confused:

Why would you want that?? Seems like it would be great for Communist propaganda...

Well...

lol, its just seemingly every thread ive been in lately is like "ARRR! PUNISH GERMANY, PUNISH THE JERRIES!"

This is why.

[Chingo360]

lol to straha's commment.....


Evil Opus: I started a thread of pure hatred a while back, search for France, and there should be a thread by me somehwere up there (about 7 pages long)

[luakel]

Well, the French haven't won a war by themselves since 1443, and I think they're cowards. I'm glad the Brits beat Napoleon.
Maybe Nappy lost in the end, but he lasted for alot longer than Hitler did (1797-1815 compared to 1939-1945). And don't call the French cowards. If you're saying that because of the two World Wars, then they did a pretty good job in WW1 stopping to an army that was alot more powerful (though their reliance on elan at the beginning was stupid I admit), and in WW2 they were facing a heavily mobilized army that they had no real defense against. They are by no means cowards, sir. :mad:

[Kidblast]

Maybe Nappy lost in the end, but he lasted for alot longer than Hitler did (1797-1815 compared to 1939-1945). And don't call the French cowards. If you're saying that because of the two World Wars, then they did a pretty good job in WW1 stopping to an army that was alot more powerful (though their reliance on elan at the beginning was stupid I admit), and in WW2 they were facing a heavily mobilized army that they had no real defense against. They are by no means cowards, sir. :mad:

Napoleon was the greatest general of the 18th and 19th Centuries, though he was Corsican, not French.

[luakel]

Napoleon was the greatest general of the 18th and 19th Centuries, though he was Corsican, not French.
But he fought for France. And his generals were pretty smart too...

[Tetsu]

Either have the US annex mexico in 1848 or have the morganthau plan done to germany after WWII. I lean towards thE US annexing mexico.

Why on Earth would you want the Morgenthau plan done to Germany? It was simply a plan to keep Germany from starting another world war... which it hasn't shown any signs of doing in sixty years. But, it also destroyed any possibility of a German economic recovery... something that would really hurt the world. Germany is a fully developed and industrial country that contributes massively to the world's economy... Morgenthau would have erased all that.

Well, the French haven't won a war by themselves since 1443, and I think they're cowards. I'm glad the Brits beat Napoleon.

I seem to remember that Germany, I don't think, ever won a war... even with allies, in their entire existance, from 1871 to 2006. Before that, they were mostly a battleground for other great powers.

Don't go France-bashing; you may find yourself hit upside the head with a much-needed dose of education.

[Straha]

Fine. Just do it to the state of hessen in germany then and not allof germany.

[Mojo]

Go back and leave two nice shiny new maxin machine guns with plenty of ammo and a instrucion booklet at the Alamo. Or maybe kill Houston after the revoltution and some how give Lamar the presidency...

[Tetsu]

Fine. Just do it to the state of hessen in germany then and not allof germany.

Alright- now I'm confused. Why Hesse?

[Mike Stearns]

Go back and leave two nice shiny new maxin machine guns with plenty of ammo and a instrucion booklet at the Alamo. Or maybe kill Houston after the revoltution and some how give Lamar the presidency...

Or how about a few crates of Winchester rifles and pump action shotguns? And a nice new sniper rifle for Davy Crockett.

[Straha]

Well why not?

[Mojo]

Or how about a few crates of Winchester rifles and pump action shotguns? And a nice new sniper rifle for Davy Crockett.

I always thought the image of Travis standing in a cannon waving and firing a M-60 madley with Bowie was cooler.:cool:

[Mike Stearns]

I always thought the image of Travis standing in a cannon waving and firing a M-60 madley with Bowie was cooler.:cool:


Yeah, but image the "holy shit" reactions from the Mexicans when Davy Crockett puts one right between Santa Anna's eyes from a couple of miles away.:cool:

[Mojo]

Yeah, but image the "holy shit" reactions from the Mexicans when Davy Crockett puts one right between Santa Anna's eyes from a couple of miles away.:cool:

Yeah from the smoking barrel of a Crockett mini nuke launcher...

[Mike Stearns]

Yeah from the smoking barrel of a Crockett mini nuke launcher...

You planning on making the Mexicans glow in the dark?:p

[Tom Veil]

I kill off the very first human female.

That just means that the very first man will have sex with a monkey.:rolleyes:

[BrianP]

Actually, I am. Who would have guessed. ;) Former Arizona Division Commander Robert Perkins at your service, sir.

Well, I only just joined about six months ago...Henry Watkins Allen Camp 133, Baton Rouge, LA.

[Tom Veil]

why is everyone so anti-germany:(
this is depressing....

I prefer to think of it as pro-Jew.

[Tom Veil]

"Won a war by themselves"? How often does that happen at all?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ...
The US last did it in 1983 (Grenada)
The UK last did it in 1982 (Falklands)
Vietnam last did it in 1979 (Cambodia)

Not bad, considering that unilateral war has been "illegal" since 1945.

[Michael]

Cure Tsarevich Alexei's Hemophilia

[Neroon]

A Korean - Japanese Alliance to chase the Europeans out of Asia after a different end to Sengoku Jidai.

[Swede]

Difficult choice, but just going for butterflies...

Either have this one http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=8942 completed as intended instead of the stump actually built.
Or this one http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=8199, that'd change 9/11 at least (if it happened, it's 5 years before, so the butterflies...)

[robertp6165]

Or how about a few crates of Winchester rifles and pump action shotguns? And a nice new sniper rifle for Davy Crockett.

You might be interested in reviving this thread (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=7991)?

[Max Sinister]

Go back and leave two nice shiny new maxin machine guns with plenty of ammo and a instrucion booklet at the Alamo. Or maybe kill Houston after the revoltution and some how give Lamar the presidency...

Why don't you like Houston?

[Dave Howery]

Well, I'd probably have to waste mine preventing robert6165's wishes from comming true. .
Okay, you do that, and I'll use mine to prevent American slavery from ever happening in the first place, and there probably won't be an ACW....

[Agentdark]

One of these would be good

1.Annex Mexico

2.Kill Hitler and the entire Nazi leadership with a tactical Nuke, hopefull butterfly effects leave Germany with Silesia and Prussia....
Are me and Chingo the only people who like Germany on this whole board?

3.Stop the Liberalizing Tsar from dying

4.Make Satanism a powerful religion
(Oblig)

[Chingo360]

Fine. Just do it to the state of hessen in germany then and not allof germany.

i didn't live in Hessen :rolleyes:

[Imajin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ...
The US last did it in 1983 (Grenada)
The UK last did it in 1982 (Falklands)
Vietnam last did it in 1979 (Cambodia)

Not bad, considering that unilateral war has been "illegal" since 1945.
Ah, alright, the US can invade a tiny island country, the UK can defeat a military junta from invading their own soil... I suppose if France's possessions in the Indian Ocean were invaded by Madagascar they could win there too :rolleyes:

[Mojo]

Why don't you like Houston?

He supported the annexation of Texas. Maybe you could say it was the only real option for Texas but maybe with a stronger leadership who knows...

[Blaine Hess]

Screw all that high minded garbage. Id find my parents before I was born and pull a Back To The Future II on them! Id give them some sweet stock tips and tell them the results of some World Series and Superbowl games. Come back and live in the lap of luxury:D !

[fhaessig]

Have Hoche give a distant posting to Pichegru. Thus Hoche coup succeeds. Npaoleon stays a successfull general of the first french republic, which continues to this day. Most of Europe turns democratic in the early XIXth century and stays that way. ( and slavery stays banned in Haiti )

[Derek Jackson]

Real reparations for slavery just after the ACW.

This means land, education and Civil rights. The land would come from the people resposible both for the evil system of slavery.

Ideally I would persuade Lincoln to distinguish between the majority of Souther Whites and the rather small planter class- and have a competent bodyguard with him when he went to see a show.

Alternatively a different successor after Lincoln's murder- could be Hamlyn or Thad Stevens (a brave anti racist much maligned by many people)

[Tizoc]

For a long time I was thinking how wonderful that would be, if Sigismundus Vasa died in his childhood...

[Xen]

Just one?

I have so many, I guess the Soviet Union never comes to power, instead a Democratic multi-party constitutional monarchy is in its place.

OR

The Ottoman Caliphate survives.

[oberdada]

I'd cut down every apple tree with a shainsaw before GOD even creates the Snake.

Paradies, yeah baby!

[Constantinople]

Im very pro Germany, I feel theyve gotten a bad rap.

[Codeman]

do something for the germans in ww1 so they win

[Straha]

Corrupt young Ian montgomerie and make him into a total perv like me so that when he starts up AH.com its a better place.

[luakel]

I like Germany too.
Corrupt young Ian montgomerie and make him into a total perv like me so that when he starts up AH.com its a better place.
"A Better Place" for everyone, or just for you (i.e., Ian allowing you to post tons of dystopias on the main board, and lifting pretty much all restrictions but banning those who you don't like)? :rolleyes:

[The Mists Of Time]

As most of you know I want to go back to the early to mid 1950's and prevent the major U.S. independent automakers from going out of production, something that would have them survive the way I had outlined. But I want that because my sense is that something back therewent wrong with the flow of time, with the path of the historic timeline, and that something has to be done to set right the things that went wrong.

Now if you asked, "If you could correct just one injustice, change one thing solely to make the world a better place?". That's difficult, that's very difficult because as I look back through all of recorded history I see so many injustices, so much suffering, so many bad things, so many things I would change to make the world a better place. How do you chose just one thing like that to change?

[Zen Redneck]

Yeah, but image the "holy shit" reactions from the Mexicans when Davy Crockett puts one right between Santa Anna's eyes from a couple of miles away.:cool:

I just accidentally came across this thread while I was Googling Crockett. Interesting that your image is (approximately) to be seen here:

http://www.bigheadpress.com/roswell?page=2

The whole story starts at:

http://www.bigheadpress.com/roswell?page=1

I think you'll like it. Do participate in the forum.

[Alikchi]

I think the most moral thing to do, in terms of total human lives saved,would be to kill Lenin or prevent the Communists from coming to power in some form.

What would I do for -me-? I'm not sure.

Hold the Ottoman Empire together for a bit longer until it disintegrates naturally - via independence movements, rebellions and such - rather than by the Allies drawing lines on a map and divvying up the spoils. Save a lot of trouble in the middle east later.

The Philippines left to independence after the Spanish-American war, instead of forced to become a US sattelite.

[Muse_Of_History]

I'd kill Hitler while he was writing Mein Kampf.

[ironduke]

[QUOTE=Agentdark;494731]One of these would be good


2.Are me and Chingo the only people who like Germany on this whole board?

Nope ,I like Germany,:D good beer,;) good women.What more could a man ask for?

[Count Dearborn]

Go back to 1888, and cure Fredrick III's throat cancer, and make it so a much older Wilhelm II comes to the throne in the early 20th Century.

All this going back and killing Hitler or fixing his art career will just make it so that a much worse individual comes to power.

[Hapsburg]

What I'd change:
Make Ted Bundy have friends in middle school and high school. Might get him a social life, and prevent his later sociopathy, and thus his murder spree.

OR

Make Hitler get into the Vienna art university.

[Superdude]

I would make my parents rich in 1991, a year after I was born.

[Leej]

The obvious:
Something to stop the American revolution, best chance for a as close to perfect world we'll get.


Or for humour:
See if young Elizabeth I really was hot and if so do my duty.

Wait until Columbus' first lands in the Carribean then go 'India? Nah, nah, nah. Sorry mate. Ya must have took a wrong turn at Africa. Do you have a map? See you take a left here....'

[Fire God]

Make Korea stronger against Japan in the Imjin War to prevent the effects of Ming China helping Korea, which lead to it having little resources to defend itself against the Manchus.

Ferdinand Marcos dies fighting in WWII.

Huguenot colony in Florida is more successful.

[Imajin]

Make Korea stronger against Japan in the Imjin War to prevent the effects of Ming China helping Korea, which lead to it having little resources to defend itself against the Manchus.
The Imajin War? :D

[Fire God]

The Imajin War? :D
Opps my mistake, it should have been the Imajin War. :rolleyes: :D

So I guess this is all your fault right, indirectly bringing down the Ming Empire and forcing Korea to become a Manchu vassel? :p

[Imajin]

Opps my mistake, it should have been the Imajin War. :rolleyes: :D

So I guess this is all your fault right, indirectly bringing down the Ming Empire and forcing Korea to become a Manchu vassel? :p
It was all part of my ridiculously complex plot to create Austria-Hungary as the sole superpower... and I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddling Serbs!

[Fire God]

It was all part of my ridiculously complex plot to create Austria-Hungary as the sole superpower... and I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddling Serbs!
If only you succeeded, you could have gotten Philippines. I even made a flag of a supposed Austro-Hungarian Philippines. :D

And I would have spoken Hungarian.

[Othniel]

The obvious:
Something to stop the American revolution, best chance for a as close to perfect world we'll get.
To counter this I'll go with "Something to cause the French to Win the War of the Grand Alliance"

[Doeth]

Make Kaiser Bill stop building a navy, concentrate on the Army and have him stay a couple years in DC in his early life, then make him maneuver to ally with the USA. Essentially TL-191 without the CSA

:cool:

[NHBL]

1. Reduce the influence of big oil and GM--prevent the demise of the streetcar and railroad passenger travel.

2. Find a way to make Ireland a nation, united and free--preferably far earlier than 1916, and with less bloodshed than occurred. Perhaps by equipping one rebel band or another with better equipment?

[anzac 15]

Did'nt Kaiser Bill have a bum arm as a result of an accident with some forecep's while the doctor was delivering him?If so,then maybe a succesful delivery gives us a mellower kaiser who does'nt need to over compensate with larger military adventures?Well.....at least that whole navy thing...

[Fla+lin3]

I'd go with killing Hitler but then my parents never would've met. So prolly Stalin but then my parents wouldn't have met either. Damn
Ok, its lotto-numbers and stock exchange information for me then ;)

[Hapsburg]

I'd go with killing Hitler but then my parents never would've met. So prolly Stalin but then my parents wouldn't have met either.
The irony of your predicament- your existence hinges on the deaths of 78 million people. Those deaths are unneccesary and wrong, but on the other hand...you want to exist, do you not?
A true Twenty-Two, eh?

[Tom Veil]

So the Jesus arrives! (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=41715) thread got me thinking, assuming that Jesus is indeed Divine, what's the ONE change that could do the greatest good?

Obvious: Jesus, upon rising from the dead, builds a jetpack and decides that instead of returning to heaven, he'll spend eternity cruising around Earth as a roving peacemaker / superhero. Name a historical tragedy? Jesus to the rescue! :D

[G.Bone]

Did'nt Kaiser Bill have a bum arm as a result of an accident with some forecep's while the doctor was delivering him?If so,then maybe a succesful delivery gives us a mellower kaiser who does'nt need to over compensate with larger military adventures?Well.....at least that whole navy thing...

Hey - I actually did a TL based on that...

(self plug) see linky in sig (end self plug)

[rewster]

Wait until Columbus' first lands in the Carribean then go 'India? Nah, nah, nah. Sorry mate. Ya must have took a wrong turn at Africa. Do you have a map? See you take a left here....'


That's exactly what I would choose. Even stopping Hitler or Stalin pales in comparison to preventing nearly an entire race of people from being wiped out, enslaved and marginalized.

[deluded_grandeur]

Seriously: Given the chance, I'd fork out a couple of billion dollars to the first person to invent a solar power/ clean-cheap energy car. I imgaine it'd help end the monoply the oil companies have over the world. Thus reducing economically fueled war. Allowing man-kind to focus their attention's on more worthwile projects (Solving world hunger etc...)

Semi-Serious: Get John Howard laid in high school so he grew up and took a real job, i.e Plumber instead of Prime minister

[Fla+lin3]

That's exactly what I would choose. Even stopping Hitler or Stalin pales in comparison to preventing nearly an entire race of people from being wiped out, enslaved and marginalized.

Frankly said I don't think this is gonna do much more than delay things. Sooner or later someone from Europe will rediscover Amerika and since our agressive culture is much more "effective" the Europeans would only be further "ahead" compared to the Indians and probably wipe them out even faster. If the delay would be very long it might work since we stopped doing those things a while ago (at least on this scale), but I don't think America could stay undetected for another 200 years or so.

[HelloLegend]

I would change the outcome of the Florida Election 2000.
I would tell those Jewish New Yorkers not to vote for
Buchanan.:rolleyes:

[Chris Oakley]

I'd have arranged for the evacuation of New Orleans before Hurricane Katrina to start six hours earlier and had more transport available for said evacuation.

[Zor]

1-Lenin is sucseeded by someone who moves the Soviet Union away from tryany to a democratic (although still somewhat socialist) nation.

2-Jesus is stillborn, thus saving the world from christainity.

Zor

[Haggis]

Well, if Columbus didn't "discover" America I wouldn't exist. If the potato famine didn't happen I wouldn't exist. If slavery didn't happen then I wouldn't exist.

I guess I'll just have to try and make up for all the horrors that caused me to exist.

[Vampiloup]

ONE thing ? damn, you time-machine need more work. Screw you !


Well.

Stop the assassination of Julius Caesar.
Well :
- better organization of the future Empire ;
- He's really a Man of Reforms. I do not see the Empire collapsing financially three centuries later, this time.
- Conquest of the Parthian Empire, as it had envisaged to do it, damnit ! Can you imagine reflecteds (altavista translate "répercutions" by "reflected". Strange. It's the right word ?) ?
- Probably conquests of Germany. and he would have succeeded, him.
- I don't see the Empire conquered by Germans or Arabs, this time.


Or maybe :

Don't give up after Diên Biên Phu, damnit !


Or perhaps :

The French government see Guderian improvment and say "that what i want, too".


Or else :

No send help to American rebellion. Sorry, but for France point of view, it's really catastrophic.

[Vampiloup]

Have Hoche give a distant posting to Pichegru. Thus Hoche coup succeeds. Npaoleon stays a successfull general of the first french republic, which continues to this day. Most of Europe turns democratic in the early XIXth century and stays that way. ( and slavery stays banned in Haiti )

Sorry, but can you give me sources ? I don't understand what you mean.

[remybfg10k]

Taking a step back from all the doom and gloom...

I`d travel back and pursuade Alexander The Great to keep pushing on, letting him conquer the entire world...

[ArKhan]

I would give alexander the great's army AK-47s

[skyfire]

I would give Alexander some penicillin so he CAN conquer the world not die of a fever.

[PMN1]

A few minor possibilities that would have a big effect on the RN - better shore facilities especially dry-dock meaning far less time and effort spent trying to shoehorn ship designs into inadequate facilities. Dry dock sizes had an impact on every major RN design since the mid 1800's and designs were compromised to fit available docks.

First one

Royal Dockyards by Philip MacDougall Pages 134 – 136.

In the light of John Rennie’s great experience as an engineer, it is interesting to consider observations he made on various royal yards in 1807. These were prompted by a commission of enquiry that had been set up to examine defect in all naval establishments. Rennie was singularly unimpressed; he considered Plymouth to be the most suited, noting the spacious harbour, general lack of silting and the navigational hazards that would eventually be overcome by the breakwater. Portsmouth, on the other hand, was more heavily criticized for, at that stage, the harbour was showing definite signs of silting, whilst he considered the dockyard to lack adequate space for the various buildings and machine shops being built.

Perhaps the most startling of his observations concerned the dockyards of Woolwich and Deptford, both of which he recommended for closure. Too far up river, they suffered from a lack of space and were constantly subjected to silting and so could not be used effectively. Commenting on Woolwich, but later using a similar argument for Deptford, he informed the committee that ‘the enormous expense of removing the constant accumulation of mud in front of the dockyard and the confined and defective arrangement of the dockyard itself, were ample reasons for it being condemned as unfit for the construction and repair of great ships.’ To replace the two yards, Rennie suggested the founding of a new dockyard at Northfleet, down river but still on the Kentish side of the Thames and not far from Gravesend. With the purchase of sufficient land, it would prove an ideal site for a dockyard, designed at the very outset for building, constructing and refitted the largest of the nation’s warships. Included in the new Northfleet dockyard would be two large wet-docks, eight dry-docks and eight building docks:

Ships will be launched immediately from these docks and slips into the great wet dock, without communicating with the river, and all vessels in ordinary may be moored on its north side, where there will be room enough to moor 70 sail of the line; or, if fewer ships of the line, a proportionate number of frigates and smaller vessels, without impeding or interfering with the works carrying out on the south side.

In the event, the committee accepted the proposed scheme, recommending implementation in its entirety. The government went as far as acquiring the necessary land but unfortunately the pressures and expense of the war made the scheme impracticable and the project was cancelled with the return of peace.

At Chatham, Rennie was just as radical in approach. Noting the restrictions of space and the shallow state of the Medway, he proposed the addition of massive wet docks formed out of the Chatham and Limehouse Reaches of the Medway. This would have provided considerable additional space for both dry-docks and slipways, whilst the entrance of the proposed wet-dock, being situated near Gillingham would go some way to alleviating the hazards of navigating the various twists and turns between Chatham and Sheerness. None of this, however, was constructed, again due to the expense involved.

John Rennie, as indicated was highly critical of dockyard design and layout. In examining each of the dockyards he ad suggested some very radical alternatives to the piecemeal improvement programmes that were usually adopted. He was aware, as were most critics that essentially the design of the six main yards had been determined during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. To impose upon this the needs of the nineteenth century was insane. Doubtless the Navy Board and the Admiralty were aware of this, but the necessary advances that Rennie indicated were beyond their limited finances. A confident wartime Admiralty promised itself new dockyards upon the return of peace, but with its arrival in 1815 government concern with the yards diminished. The sound proposals of John Rennie were quietly forgotten. Indeed, some thirty years later, when the Crimea was being fought and the ships themselves undergoing change, the dockyards remained unaltered. A chance to solve Britain’s shipbuilding and repair difficulties had, one again, been passed over.


Second (and prefered) one

In Building the Steam Navy: Dockyards, Technology and the Creation of the Victorian Battle Fleet 1830 – 1906 by David Evans

Page 198 to 199

Nearly everything in the Yards had been built too small to cope with future requirements. In 1859 and 1860 the foreparts of the slip roofs at Chatham and Portsmouth were raised and they were lengthened to enable larger ships to be constructed. However, with the near universal adoption of metal construction the covered slips became an irrelevance for building purposes and they were not subjected to further alterations.

Docks, quite otherwise, had to be continuously enlarged and adjusted throughout the century as ships grew inexorably heavier and longer; the old Yards were confined sites, and there was little room to spare. A comprehensive account of the extensions and the construction of new docks in the Yards would be a book of its own, but some account of the building of Docks 14 and 15 at Portsmouth is necessary to finally wrap up the story of the Portsmouth Extension.

These two docks, though in the original plan, had not been built by May 1890 when the Chief Constructor, Henry Deadman, submitted that the work should begin as soon as possible. There wee only two docks large enough to take the first-class battleships, and one, No.13, was at present occupied in building Royal Sovereign, while the other (the North Lock) was preferably kept open for the passage of the ships to and from the Rigging and Repairing Basins. For slightly smaller ships, No.12 dock, the Deep Dock and the South Lock were available. It would probably be necessary almost immediately to lay down Centurion in No.12, which would tie up that dock for at least 18 months.

In view of the building programme envisaged, the two projected docks, large enough to take any size of battleship contemplated, were urgently needed. In February 1892, Deadman suggested they should be a long as possible without interfering with the railway lines and buildings recently erected, about 500ft. One should be able to be divided for repairing caissons in one part and a ship in the other. They should be at least 90ft wide; this would mean widening South Lock and its caissons. The Director of Dockyards agreed that they should be wide, pointing out that British docks were narrower than the French.

The breadth of entrance should be 128ft, fully equal to the widest of the Cherbourg docks. The Director of Naval Construction, Sir William White, disagreed, thinking that No.14 could remain 82ft wide: ‘So far as can be seen at present, the tendency is to increase in length rather than the beam.’ The Inflexible (1874 design) was a broad as Royal Sovereign (1889 design), No.15 might be 94ft wide. He had recently seen Victoria (70ft beam) in such a dock, and ‘the impression made upon my mind was that, in the endeavour to provide against possible contingencies, considerable disadvantages have had to be incurred on ordinary working with ships of present dimensions,’ as an excessive length of shoring had to be provided, and the volume of water that had to be pumped out was very great.

As White was designing the ships that were to use the docks his views carried weight, and Major Pilkington, the Director of Works, considered that the entrances, which had already been constructed, should remain as they were. By April 1893 it was decided that they should be 550ft long, as a consequence of the construction of the new cruisers Powerful and Terrible, 538ft long, and next summer in a change of heart the width of No.15 and possibly No.14 was well was proposed to be increased to 94ft. But in December the alterations were cancelled because of the necessity of having the docks completed before the delivery of Powerful and Terrible, which had to be docked, examined and have their bottoms coppered before their steam trials, which were of exceptional importance, as they were the first bets of a new type of boiler in the Service. Needless to say, they proved too short at 550ft and were later extended.

[lordofalbion]

I'd prevent the formation of belgium and save the British Empire. This would also shorten the first world war and prevent the second world war.

[VulcanTrekkie45]

I'd kill Pope Adrian IV, and make sure England never annexes Ireland.

[Tocomocho]

I would put a brain inside Carlos IV's head. Either that, or throwing little baby Napoleon inside the Mediterranean Sea.

[keystoneking44]

if you really want to see history change alot make sure bismarck an no else like him has any power in germany that will lead to a very different 20th century

[demonkangaroo]

Since every one is going to be blocking me from killing Li'l Hitler, then, I'd give an anonymus tip to ALL of the U.S. gov. agencies about the 9/11 attacks.
and, if I can't do that, I'd go to germany, volenteer to be Karl Marx's babysitter, and kill him.

[alt_historian]

Napoleon was the greatest general of the 18th and 19th Centuries, though he was Corsican, not French.

No, he was French. Corsica belonged to France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica#History) at the time, although I admit that back then it was a fairly recent transfer. That's still like saying we can't regard - to use a contemporaneous example - Wellington as a great British military leader because he was born in Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Wellington#Early_life_and_marriage). Ireland was considered part of Britain at the time, just as Corsica was considered part of France.

[general_tiu]

One things for sure...I would make the Poles resist the Nazis more effectively...

[NHBL]

I'd forgot about this thread, or that I'd posted in it, so I thought for a bit, then read through the assortment of posts. My firstthoughts from way back in the early days of the thread haven't changed.

Choice 1. Make Ireland a nation, united and free...preferably before 1916.
Choice 2. Preserve the streetcar network in the USA, such that people keep using it (And other public transportation)