1100 Christian Europe ISOT to 100

[Hermanubis]

All Christian nations in 1100 AD outside of the boarders of the Roman Empire of 100 AD are ISOT’ed to that era. What happens?

[Hermanubis]

Would look something like this

[Psychomeltdown]

it probably would give a stronger positions to the Christians in the Roman Empire, but would the barbarians christian nations be able to stand up against the Romans if they allied? most of them are in pretty shitty states at this time and the Roman empire was at it's height.

but it could probably solve the whole barbarian invasions thing, since all the people at the 1100 were mainly agricultural feudal types. Though they could raise armies, they wouldn't be as much of a threat as moving hordes of people migrating into Roman lands.


The roman empire is pretty much at it's limit, my guess is that they'll just stay on the defensive and be eaten from within by the rising populations of christians inside the empire.

[Hermanubis]

Didnt mean to put the Volga Bulgarians there. You can just ignore them.

[Othniel]

Norway and Denmark get to relive their glory days.;)

[Alratan]

it probably would give a stronger positions to the Christians in the Roman Empire, but would the barbarians christian nations be able to stand up against the Romans if they allied?
Ironically, this might actually hurt the progress of Christianity within the Empire. Now, it's a religion of the northern barbarians, including those insisting on raiding and pillagin the North West provinces.

The infusion of 1000 years of technological advancement could actually revitalise the classical sphere, given that the Romans have the best economy to take advantage of them. The improvements in agricultural technology have made it worthwhile for the Romans to extend their conquests north.

[Tom Veil]

I think that this would be a fantastic thing for everyone involved. The Romans gradually weakened over the centuries following 100 AD b/c they didn't have anyone to keep them in check or be their yardstick. With barbarians to their north, desert to the south, ocean to the west, and 1000 miles of buffer territory to the east, there was little pressure to remove an incompetent and/or tyrannical leader.

I expect that Rome will phase out the Cult of the Emperor in favor of at least religious tolerance, b/c they'll soon find out that persecuting Christians is a sure-fire way to unite all of the European nations into war against Rome.

Theologists will have an absolute field day -- many of the great prophets and missionaries of the Apostolic period are still around in 100 AD. With a little luck, it will lead to a truer version of Christianity, as Saint John and others busily correct 1000 years' worth of corruption that has crept into Church practice.

[Alratan]

I think that this would be a fantastic thing for everyone involved. The Romans gradually weakened over the centuries following 100 AD b/c they didn't have anyone to keep them in check or be their yardstick. With barbarians to their north, desert to the south, ocean to the west, and 1000 miles of buffer territory to the east, there was little pressure to remove an incompetent and/or tyrannical leader
Ummm...

Continual war against the Persians to the East?

I expect that Rome will phase out the Cult of the Emperor in favor of at least religious tolerance, b/c they'll soon find out that persecuting Christians is a sure-fire way to unite all of the European nations into war against Rome.
Remember, in any war of Rome v. the North Rome wins quite decisevly. The reason they might have to introduce more tolerance is because of it being economically neccassary given all the new Christian slaves flooding the markets.

Theologists will have an absolute field day -- many of the great prophets and missionaries of the Apostolic period are still around in 100 AD. With a little luck, it will lead to a truer version of Christianity, as Saint John and others busily correct 1000 years' worth of corruption that has crept into Church practice.
It's most likely that the Christians of 1000 BC don't recognise the Christians of 100 BC as anything of the kind, or just consider them heretics. Remember, Arianism, Monophytism, Gnosticism are all strong within "Christianity" at this point. Also remember that in the areas you quote, Chrstianity is not that thoroughly bedded in.

[Max Sinister]

The Christians of 100 and those of 1100 excommunicate each other. The religion has changed a lot during 1000 years, esp. since they were a persecuted cult before and a state religion later.

[Hermanubis]

All Christian nations in 1100 AD outside of the boarders of the Roman Empire of 100 AD are ISOT’ed to that era. What happens?
I suppose Ethiopia, (any Armenia outside Roman boarders?), and any other Christian states outside Rome would come along as well, though they arnt on the map.

[pa_dutch]

I suppose Ethiopia, (any Armenia outside Roman boarders?), and any other Christian states outside Rome would come along as well, though they arnt on the map.

The Naiman Mongols were Nestorian, but I'm not sure if they were independent or not. I think I remember reading that many of the Khitai elite were Nestorian, too.

[Cockroach]

The roman empire is pretty much at it's limit, my guess is that they'll just stay on the defensive and be eaten from within by the rising populations of christians inside the empire.
By and large I would say you are right... but now Centeral Europe suddenly becomes... shall we say "interesting" to the Romans. After all it's suddenly gone from barbarian infested forests to a semi-civilised and moderatly rich mass of countries.

[Hermanubis]

What do people think will happen to the rump Holy Roman Empire here? Will it fall apart? Consolidate? Attempt to regain some territory from the (Not-so-Holy) Roman Empire?

[Hermanubis]

*Bump!*
Anything else for this?

[MerryPrankster]

It's most likely that the Christians of 1000 BC don't recognise the Christians of 100 BC as anything of the kind, or just consider them heretics. Remember, Arianism, Monophytism, Gnosticism are all strong within "Christianity" at this point. Also remember that in the areas you quote, Chrstianity is not that thoroughly bedded in.

Arianism and Monophysitism are from the 5th-6th Century. Those controversies had not arisen in the 2nd Century.

Gnosticism would be there, but it'd be in a much earlier stage of development and fewer in number.

[Hermanubis]

Fixed up the map a little bit:

Part of the County of Eddesa and what looks like a ruminant of Armenia from 1100 are coming along for the ride, but not the Volga Bulgarians (being Muslim and all). Any Christian states not on the map also come along…


(also, how many of the Germanic <or otherwise..> Barbarians that menaced the Roman Empire are left, do you think? >

[Hermanubis]

(also, how many of the Germanic <or otherwise..> Barbarians that menaced the Roman Empire are left, do you think? >
THe Huns probably won't make it past Russia here, I'd bet...

[stevep]

THe Huns probably won't make it past Russia here, I'd bet...

They are a couple of centuries later but not so sure of that. Horse nomads are still pretty formidable in the 12th C and I think the various Rus states were struggling against groups such as the Bulgars prior to the Mongols coming along and smashing them both. Not sure who were the main nomads and steppe tribes at the time but the Rus states could struggle again.

Also other states and tribes in the region will probably find the various Christian states pretty unpleasant neighbours given their intolerance at the time so there could be a lot of conflict on their other borders, as well as between them.

Interesting question for the Catholic states. How which they decide who the new Pope is and where his bases will be? Less important for the Orthodox churches as I think most of them were fairly nationally organised.

As someone said the presence of the new states could undermine the relatively small number of Christian inside the empire. For one thing the intolerance of the Christians, especially how they will respond to the pagan Romans who now control all the holy places. For another they will be tainted with relationship to foreign states who are deeply hostile to the empire. Don't forget that the Roman empire was a lot more religiously tolerant than any Christian state from 1100.

Just had a thought. At this time Trajan, one of the best military emperors, was in the midst of the wars to conquer the Dacians. Hence you are going to have a lot of Roman legions expecting conflict in the neighbourhood of the eastern Balkan states, and believing they own much of Hungary and the Rumanian states of the time. Could be very nasty,.

The one thing that might go in favour of the incoming Christians is that the Romans were also very superstitious. the sudden appearance of the medieval population centres in border areas, say on the other side of the Rhine and Danube will be a hell of a shock and could make them think it was some act of the gods. [Thinking a bit of Cortez and the Aztecs here].

Steve

[Hermanubis]

What do people think will happen to the rump Holy Roman Empire here? Will it fall apart? Consolidate? Attempt to regain some territory from the (Not-so-Holy) Roman Empire?
How about German culture? How strong is it in the East?

[Imajin]

Good point, many of those eastern states within the HRE are likely still Slavic peopled at this point, and those outside I think are almost definately.

[Hermanubis]

Good point, many of those eastern states within the HRE are likely still Slavic peopled at this point, and those outside I think are almost definately.
Lets see, the HRE here is Saxony, half of Franconia, bits and peices of other states and some vassals.
(lucky them)


...

[Hermanubis]

So, which of the Catholic nations is the most prominent here? The HRE? Poland? Denmark or Sweden?

[stevep]

So, which of the Catholic nations is the most prominent here? The HRE? Poland? Denmark or Sweden?

Probably not the HRE or Hungary as both have lost so much territory and also potential face serious clashes with the empire as both sides react to the changing circumstances. [Would be especially nasty if the HRE emperor and a lot of his forces were on one of their campaigns in Italy at the time and have been lost. Also with so much chaos it will probably dissolve into some faction fighting, especially over questions such as the new Pope.

Poland was I think pretty powerful at the time and undergoing a period of expansion. It was a while before it united with the Lithuanians, who as a non-Christian state presumably haven't come back. Not sure how the various Scandinavian states were fairing at the time as they seemed to drop in importance after the Viking era for a period. This could change again now as they are potentially a lot more prominent.

Does anyone remember what date the Teutonic Knights 1st came to the area? This is shortly after the 1st crusade so there is a precedent and all the holy cities have now been lost to what the various states will despite as their pagan predecessor. Hence you could see an attempt at a new crusade but i suspect it would fail, and really p**s the empire off!

Steve

[Othniel]

Alls I have to say is read about Canute IV of Denmark, and see what his ansentors would do with a chance to relive his conquests.

[stevep]

Alls I have to say is read about Canute IV of Denmark, and see what his ansentors would do with a chance to relive his conquests.

Presume Canute IV is the one known here as the Great, who completed the conquest of England then added Norway to his realm?

I think the point at which the empire will suffer will be at sea, especially in the north. Don't think they ever really got the hang of the northern seas and by 100AD it had been dominant enough in the Med. that I think the navy there was pretty pitiful. As such Britain could well be lost, especially to the Danes and Norse and I suspect the coastline of Gaul will take some damage. However I doubt there is an army in Europe at the time that can afford to mix it with the legions mincing machine. Plus don't forget the empire has a much larger population than all the Christian states at this time probably.

Steve

[Othniel]

Presume Canute IV is the one known here as the Great, who completed the conquest of England then added Norway to his realm?

I think the point at which the empire will suffer will be at sea, especially in the north. Don't think they ever really got the hang of the northern seas and by 100AD it had been dominant enough in the Med. that I think the navy there was pretty pitiful. As such Britain could well be lost, especially to the Danes and Norse and I suspect the coastline of Gaul will take some damage. However I doubt there is an army in Europe at the time that can afford to mix it with the legions mincing machine. Plus don't forget the empire has a much larger population than all the Christian states at this time probably.

Steve
They already lost a large portion of it after his death. Here it is Eric the 1st. Here the Danes and Normans will come out strong. Scotland is also starting to ossify. I would dare to say it is possible to see a repeat of the Age of the Vikings in the North, but that is a raiding enemy to the Romans. Likely to make the Romans feel a little sore, but not enough to over throw them in the west.

In the Baltic Lands we are lacking the Livonian Order (founded in 1202) and the Teutonic Knights (founded 1190) Poland is just starting as a serious power in the region as well, though it looks more intent on collasping...

[Hermanubis]

Scotland is also starting to ossify.
Hasint it lost a large part of its population though?

[stevep]

Hasint it lost a large part of its population though?

True. Going by the map Lothian and Strathclyde have gone. That probably also means the monarch and most of what central government there is will have gone so probably a fair amount of disorder and struggles for primacy.

Steve

[Leej]

Who was HRE at the time?
I suspect he would have been in the area that is the Roman Empire...
If not (or after the dust settles otherwise) Germans move in and the HRE becomes the real Roman emperor.

[stevep]

Who was HRE at the time?
I suspect he would have been in the area that is the Roman Empire...
If not (or after the dust settles otherwise) Germans move in and the HRE becomes the real Roman emperor.

Lee

Not sure I follow. Do you mean the Romans move in and Trajan becomes the HRE? Can't see the rump of Germany having that much influence, although medieval HC with stirrup and lance could give the Romans some surprises until they adjust.

Steve

[Imajin]

Don't forget, the East is likely to have alot of soldiers with the Drach nach Ost underway...

[Hermanubis]

Good point, many of those eastern states within the HRE are likely still Slavic peopled at this point, and those outside I think are almost definately.
And we come back to the Medieval Armies V Roman Armies…

So what happens if the Germans are able to take a big chunk of Roman territory? The Land wouldn’t be populated by Christians (or Germans..) the Rome of the 2nd century is a lot different from the Rome of the 5th century...

[Alratan]

And we come back to the Medieval Armies V Roman Armies…

So what happens if the Germans are able to take a big chunk of Roman territory? The Land wouldn’t be populated by Christians (or Germans..) the Rome of the 2nd century is a lot different from the Rome of the 5th century...
They might take a reasonably substantial part of Germany, but I predict the Romans will take it back a couple of years later. These Northen rump states can't afford to keep their armies in the field the way the Roman Empire can in this era (remember, they can't even understand each others languages)

The Christian states are simply to small and to poor to threaten Rome. As I said up thread, the Romans biggest problem will be getting a substantial number of new Christian slaves, and dealing with the economic dislocation caused by the introduction of new agricultural technologies (heavier ploughs).

[Hermanubis]

What about Dacia? Whats going to happen to them:p ?

How would Perisa and the other non Roman states react to this?

[Leej]

Lee

Not sure I follow. Do you mean the Romans move in and Trajan becomes the HRE? Can't see the rump of Germany having that much influence, although medieval HC with stirrup and lance could give the Romans some surprises until they adjust.

Steve

No, the holy roman emperor (HRE) becomes the real Roman emperor.
It would be a long way from clear cut and would really depend on who gets their act together fastest though I think that the Europeans will be able to cope better- due to it being primitive people from history they are faced with and not strange people never seen before as the Romans.
At the very least I'd see major German gains if not total conquest.

[Alratan]

Thinking about it, the real nail in the coffin of these northern Christian states is being moved from the medieval warm period to time when the European climate was notably cooler. This is going to happen immediately, so the first seasons harvest is going to be the last good one. The subsequent harvests are going to fail, so we're looking at famine and societal collapse.

It would be a long way from clear cut and would really depend on who gets their act together fastest though I think that the Europeans will be able to cope better- due to it being primitive people from history they are faced with and not strange people never seen before as the Romans.
I think a reasonable argument can be made that the Christian states are the more "primative" of the sides. The Romans are used to dealing with fighting barbarians across the fontier, and waging large scale war, to them it is just business as usual. These northern European societies are largely constructed on a warband structure, and have just had all their trading and economic networks destroyed.

[stevep]

What about Dacia? Whats going to happen to them:p ?

How would Perisa and the other non Roman states react to this?

Actually, just checked a book and realised I was remembering wrongly. Dacia wasn't initially conqered until 106AD so all of Hungary north of the Danube will be there. Trajan only became emperor in 98AD so is still fairly young and historically has 17 years campaigning ahead of him. [Gulp:D].

Steve

[JHPier]

Thinking about it, the real nail in the coffin of these northern Christian states is being moved from the medieval warm period to time when the European climate was notably cooler. This is going to happen immediately, so the first seasons harvest is going to be the last good one. The subsequent harvests are going to fail, so we're looking at famine and societal collapse.
Oh no, they move from the Medieval Warm Period to the Roman Warm Period. I don't think they'll notice much difference.

BTW, I seem to recall that the Slavs of Mecklenburg and Pomerania remained pagen to well in the 12C.

[pa_dutch]

Are the Naiman and Khitan Mongols Christianized yet? If so, do they come back? If they overlap the Huns or any other nomadic steppe peoples that could stop the threat they pose to Europe, and they could perhaps help spread Nestorian Christianity in Asia.

Also, I believe ancient Axum of this time is considered a world power, with influence spreading as far as South Arabia and pretty far down the East African coast. As Christian Ethiopia is even more powerful and has no threat of Islam, Ethiopia could rule over a very large empire. We could also see an early Christianization of much of sub-Saharan Africa.

[Hermanubis]

Are the Naiman and Khitan Mongols Christianized yet?
If they are, they sure do. Any Christian nations outside the boarders of the Roman Empire come along.

[JHPier]

If they are, they sure do. Any Christian nations outside the boarders of the Roman Empire come along.
In that case Georgia (not on the last map) and the Nubians and Ethiopians come too. Therefore no Axum. That gets replaced by its 1100-counterpart.

[Hermanubis]

In that case Georgia (not on the last map) and the Nubians and Ethiopians come too. Therefore no Axum. That gets replaced by its 1100-counterpart.
<1100AD>
http://www.euratlas.com/time/sea1100.jpg
Unfortunately a bit of confusion here. Probably the Kingdom of Abkhazia, but what about all these little specs?

[JHPier]

<1100AD>
http://www.euratlas.com/time/sea1100.jpg
Unfortunately a bit of confusion here. Probably the Kingdom of Abkhazia, but what about all these little specs?
Kartli IIRC is the name of a modern Georgian province. Alania is the modern Ossetians, who are also Christians.
The others:confused: Some might be Armenian, but I don't really know.

[Imajin]

Shah-Armen might be an Armenian state... but I think at least some of those states may have had Christian armenian populations, but had Muslim rulers- what happens to them?

[pa_dutch]

Wasn't there also a Christian population in India? Are they organized into a state of some kind?

[DuQuense]

Remember the King of Ethiopia became a Muslim in 0612 when Mohammad & his followers fled there. Despite the efforts of his successors, by the 1100's somewhere between 40~50% of the population was Muslim. if you include Ethiopia, You are ISOTing a large number of Muslims.

[stevep]

Remember the King of Ethiopia became a Muslim in 0612 when Mohammad & his followers fled there. Despite the efforts of his successors, by the 1100's somewhere between 40~50% of the population was Muslim. if you include Ethiopia, You are ISOTing a large number of Muslims.

Are you sure about that? Never heard anything like that.

Have heard that after Mohammed’s death, when there was a period of disorder some Muslims fled to Axum and were given shelter there until their fellows managed to crush the non-Muslim elements in Arabia.

However the country remained strongly Christian for a long while. Even how I think its still predominantly Christian and that’s with large numbers of Muslims in the south which at this time were still pagan.

Steve