Why I really came here. Please help.

[The Mists Of Time]

I have posted in several threads and even started one, and it is fun coming up with alternate histories, though I admit mine tend to get kind of idealistic and I don't always consider or know all the facts and side issues that would have an effect on things. I will continue to share my views and comments and to have fun with this.

But that's not really why I came here, and I know what most of you will think of my reasons for first coming here. I want to go back in time to the 1950's and change something, alter history, then return to the present, and I wanted to get some idea of the effects those changes would have. I thought the members of an alternative history board would have a better idea on that than most since all of you have been working with alternate histories. Here is what I want to change.

I love Studebaker and Packard automobiles. I want to go back to the 1950 and save the major U.S. independent automakers that were still around then. Here is some background.

After World War 2 we had a bigh seller's market. But as we moved back into a buyer's market in the early 50's the independent automakers had a real struggle and saw combining with another independent as a way to survive.

In 1953 Kaiser-Fraiser merged with Willys/Jeep to form Kaiser-Willys Corporation.

In 1954 Nash, who also built the Rambler, bought Hudson to form American Motors Corporation.

Also in 1954 Packard motor Car Company bought Studebaker Corporation to form Studebaker-Packard Corporation.

I want to go back and do something that would cause those three independents to survive intact and in such a way that what we would have had over the past fifty years, and what we would still have today would be a very strong, thriving, highly competitive Big Six U.S. automakers
with the companies and the makes they would be building as follows.

GENERAL MOTORS CORPORATION: Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, GMC trucks.

FORD MOTOR COMPANY: Ford, Mercury, Lincoln.

CHRYSLER CORPORATION: Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto, Chrysler.

STUDEBAKER-PACKARD CORPORATION: Studebaker, Clipper, Packard.

AMERICAN MOTORS CORPORATION: Rambler, Nash, Hudson.

KAISER-WILLYS CORPORATION: Willys, Jeep, Fraiser, Kaiser.

I think I know what I would need to do back there. What I'm wondering about is the effect. If we would have had over thepast fifty years, and still had today, this kind of strong thriving highly competitive Big Six U.S. automakers, it would have had a major effect on the American economy, probably a positive effect. It would have also effected American culture and society, and would have effected American politics and government, and some of its effects would have been felt worldwide.

One effect I thought it might have had is the economic recession of 1958 into 59 might not have happened, which would have helped Nixon in 1960.
That's why I was so interested in the thread "Nixon v JFK, Nixon Wins."

Suppose the American automobile industry was what I have outlined here, that what we had over the past fifty years, and still had today was a strong thriving highly competitive Big Six U.S. automakers as I've outlined them here.

How would that have changed things? How would that have changed automotive design, engineering, and technology, and how would it have effected other areas of technology? Most of all, how would it have altered history and the historic timeline? What would America and the world have been like over the past fifty years, and what would America and the world be like today if that had happened?

Even though I feel I know where in the 1950's I would need to go, and what I would need to do back there, I would appreciate any suggestions anyone might offer on what it would have taken to make this happen.

Oh yes, I would also appreciate any suggestions anyone might offer as to how I might travel back in time to the 1950's and then return to the present.

[Archangel Michael]

Well, that's an interesting idea to say the least.

If you do travel back in time and save Studebaker and Packard, there'll be hundreds of unknown butterflies. One of them could result with you not being born, thus you wouldn't have gone back in time which means that you didn't fuck around with it, so you are born, so you go back in time, and you're not born which means...

In other words, a paradox.

[luakel]

If you do travel back in time and save Studebaker and Packard, there'll be hundreds of unknown butterflies. One of them could result with you not being born, thus you wouldn't have gone back in time which means that you didn't fuck around with it, so you are born, so you go back in time, and you're not born which means...

In other words, a paradox.
Actually, he'll just create a TL where Studebaker and Packard stayed around, and when he returns to the present, he will either A.) return to the TL he came from, or B.) stay in that one. Either way, what he changes will probably not affect this one...

[Archangel Michael]

Actually, he'll just create a TL where Studebaker and Packard stayed around, and when he returns to the present, he will either A.) return to the TL he came from, or B.) stay in that one. Either way, what he changes will probably not affect this one...

At least my explination wasn't from a movie. :D

One effect I thought it might have had is the economic recession of 1958 into 59 might not have happened, which would have helped Nixon in 1960.

It might be a good idea to warn Nixon about either A. shaving and wearing makeup for the debates; or B. not have televised debates. That would help Nixon.

And who do you plan to go back in time?

[Akiyama]

Oh yes, I would also appreciate any suggestions anyone might offer as to how I might travel back in time to the 1950's and then return to the present.

No problem. You just have to live long enough for someone to invent a working time machine.

[MrP]

It might be a good idea to warn Nixon about either A. shaving and wearing makeup for the debates; or B. not have televised debates. That would help Nixon.

At any rate I certainly wouldn't hurt the child. *lie detector explodes*

Re actual time travel: I recommend checking out Stephen Hawking's work. IIRC he came down against the idea of time being cyclical a few years back, so that's out. Methinks this may give some basic info: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel)

Hope that helps :)

[Wendell]

Well, I am not that familiar with the inner workings of those various firms, but Unions and poor management are killing the U.S.-based industry today.

[Leo Caesius]

I thought it was their cunning plan to produce cars which would fall to pieces within five years or less, thus necessitating that people change cars like they change clothes?

[Wendell]

I thought it was their cunning plan to produce cars which would fall to pieces within five years or less, thus necessitating that people change cars like they change clothes?
That too is part of it, but one could tie that factor to the labor issues.

[Leo Caesius]

That too is part of it, but one could tie that factor to the labor issues.What, exactly, is the difference between American labor and that found in countries like Germany and Japan?

[Wendell]

What, exactly, is the difference between American labor and that found in countries like Germany and Japan?
Well, considering the quality of the product, I'd say that. Also, GM has many people it has effectively paid NOT to work. To my knowledge, the Japanese and German firms do not operate in the same way. Consider also, the work ethic. Granted, working hours are fewer in Germany...

[MrP]

Somehow this exchange just seems to call for a dose of BttF. :rolleyes:

Unbelievable, that his piece of junk could be such a big problem. No wonder this circuit failed - it says, "Made in Japan."
What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.
Unbelievable!

[Max Sinister]

Also, GM has many people it has effectively paid NOT to work.

Now I'm curious. What exactly do you mean by that? Sounds certainly like a very stupid decision.

[Flocculencio]

Somehow this exchange just seems to call for a dose of BttF. :rolleyes:

A worker in 1909:

You can't treat the working man this way. One day, we'll form a union and get the fair and equitable treatment we deserve! Then we'll go too far, and get corrupt and shiftless, and the Japanese will eat us alive!

Burns's grandfather:

The Japanese? Those sandal-wearing goldfish-tenders? Bosh! Flimshaw!

Mr. Burns (to Smithers, in the present):

If only we'd listened to that boy, instead of walling him up in the abandoned coke oven.

[The_Leader]

I thought it was their cunning plan to produce cars which would fall to pieces within five years or less, thus necessitating that people change cars like they change clothes?


Dony know about the other big two,but GM has been useing the above as
"planned oboloscence" for there cars since the mid 60's so i dont think that yoy could tie the two together.

[The Mists Of Time]

All the talk about General Motors and the automobile industry today is interesting, but none of it answers the questions I asked in starting this thread.

Suppose you could go back or somehow reach back to the 1950's and do something that would cause the major U.S. independent automakers to have survived as I outlined below, then return to the present.

If the major U.S. independent automakers had survived like that, how would it have changed things? I'm thinking more of its effect on history and the historic timeline. What would the past fifty years or so have been like?
What would America and the world be like today? If you could really do that, what would the year 2006 you came back to be like?

If that had happened it would have had an effect probably a positive one on the economy. It would have effected culture and society, politics and government.

As I said, I think I know what I would need to do back there, and I think I know what I would have to do to go or reach back there and then return to the present.

What I'm looking for is a realistic idea of the effect, how it would change or effect history and the historic timeline, what America and the world would be like today or what the 2006 I returned to would be like.

Please help.


I love Studebaker and Packard automobiles. I want to go back to the 1950 and save the major U.S. independent automakers that were still around then. Here is some background.

After World War 2 we had a bigh seller's market. But as we moved back into a buyer's market in the early 50's the independent automakers had a real struggle and saw combining with another independent as a way to survive.

In 1953 Kaiser-Fraiser merged with Willys/Jeep to form Kaiser-Willys Corporation.

In 1954 Nash, who also built the Rambler, bought Hudson to form American Motors Corporation.

Also in 1954 Packard motor Car Company bought Studebaker Corporation to form Studebaker-Packard Corporation.

I want to go back and do something that would cause those three independents to survive intact and in such a way that what we would have had over the past fifty years, and what we would still have today would be a very strong, thriving, highly competitive Big Six U.S. automakers
with the companies and the makes they would be building as follows.

GENERAL MOTORS CORPORATION: Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, GMC trucks.

FORD MOTOR COMPANY: Ford, Mercury, Lincoln.

CHRYSLER CORPORATION: Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto, Chrysler.

STUDEBAKER-PACKARD CORPORATION: Studebaker, Clipper, Packard.

AMERICAN MOTORS CORPORATION: Rambler, Nash, Hudson.

KAISER-WILLYS CORPORATION: Willys, Jeep, Fraiser, Kaiser.

I think I know what I would need to do back there. What I'm wondering about is the effect. If we would have had over thepast fifty years, and still had today, this kind of strong thriving highly competitive Big Six U.S. automakers, it would have had a major effect on the American economy, probably a positive effect. It would have also effected American culture and society, and would have effected American politics and government, and some of its effects would have been felt worldwide.

One effect I thought it might have had is the economic recession of 1958 into 59 might not have happened, which would have helped Nixon in 1960.
That's why I was so interested in the thread "Nixon v JFK, Nixon Wins."

Suppose the American automobile industry was what I have outlined here, that what we had over the past fifty years, and still had today was a strong thriving highly competitive Big Six U.S. automakers as I've outlined them here.

How would that have changed things? How would that have changed automotive design, engineering, and technology, and how would it have effected other areas of technology? Most of all, how would it have altered history and the historic timeline? What would America and the world have been like over the past fifty years, and what would America and the world be like today if that had happened?

Even though I feel I know where in the 1950's I would need to go, and what I would need to do back there, I would appreciate any suggestions anyone might offer on what it would have taken to make this happen.

Oh yes, I would also appreciate any suggestions anyone might offer as to how I might travel back in time to the 1950's and then return to the present.

[Straha]

We'd have more competition in the market leading to innovation and faster changes.

[Leo Caesius]

Consider also, the work ethic. Granted, working hours are fewer in Germany...And in Japan. Nobody works harder than the American worker. Even the Japanese eventually said, "fuck this shit," and threw in the towel. America quite possibly has the hardest working ethic in the world, and it eats me up to hear people like you blaming our economic woes upon the worker, rather than the brain-dead CEOs with their shortsighted vision and their offshore tax shelters and their gold-plated toilets.

I can't imagine what the German or Japanese automotive industry would be like with American labor. Come to think of it, considering that most German and Japanese cars sold in the US are actually made here in the US, I don't have to imagine. The most successful cars in America are made by American workers, not Japanese nor German. What would truly be interesting is how American manufacturing would prosper if it wasn't burdened by the congenital idiots that they currently have in charge...

TMOT: I'm sorry to take this off topic, but it had to be said. I really feel this way.

[Shadow Knight]

Well one way would be to weaken the leading contenders a bit to make them more on par with these newly created joint ventures. For example have Ford put out a few series of vehicles like the Edsel (Sp?) not just one while the newer companies use that time to gain larger market share.

You could also have a scandal or something that leads to a shift from one company to another by the consumers (say a terrible safety issue, while this was not exactly on the minds of the consumer in the 50s if a product like the Pinto, or worse, that by word of mouth gets to be known as a death trap or just a crappy product that breaks down one a week.

One last one I thought is given the times one of the leaders of the big automakers could make a rather public rascist statement leading minorities (blacks, asians, latinos, etc.) to shy away from that company, it may not be enough to hurt them, I don't know the purchasing power of them during the 50/60s, but it might be enough to give just enough market share to one of the companies your trying to let survive actually do so.

Good luck with the TL, it certaintly is a unique and modest one compared to some of the others ones around here.

[CalBear]

I would suggest that you find a way to keep the Big Three viable in 2006 first.

American automobile companies are, without question, the worse run businesses on Earth. Their inability to innovate over the last 40 years, their failure to see beyond the immediate bottom line, and their arrogance about what the relationship with their customers is all about is killing them.

Japanese & European companies give consumers what they want! What a concept! Their cars are higher in overall quality (look at the reliability of a 5 year old Toyota vs. a comparable Chevy), fit & finish, and visual design.

American companies GAVE the car market to the overseas manufactures years ago. The day that the two highest selling vehicles from US companies became Pick-up trucks and they didn't realize the problems that indicated they were lost. Trucks and later, SUV's, were high profit units for both the manufacturer & the dealers. So what if they only sold cars to rental fleets & goverment agencies (who were mostly REQUIRED to buy American), cars were a dead issue, SUV made money and were easy to build. Great idea right up to the day that oil started to become more expensive. Then they had nothing to fall back on. Same thing happened in the 70's and they failed to learn anything!

You want to save Detroit (now or then)? Put some people in charge with common sense and vision.

[The Mists Of Time]

You guys have been at the alternate history thing longer and more than I have. I'm asking others who are more experienced at this than I am to give me a realistic view or alternate history or timeline based the situation where the major U.S. independent automakers survived and where what we had over the past half century and still had today was a strong thriving highly competitive Big Six U.S. automakers as I outlined them.

Had that happened, it would have effected the economy, politics and government, even culture and society.

The last Kaiser and Willys cars were built in 1955. The Willys was built into the 60's but down in South America I think in Argentina.After 55 the only U.S. built or marketed Kaiser-Willys vehicles were Jeeps in a small nitch type market.

The last big traditional Packard was built in 1956. When Packard left Detroit, Michigan in thelate summer of 56 it put some 4,000 people out of work. The make continued for two more years through 1958, but was just a gussied up Studebaker President. Studebaker continued untill 1966.

The last Nash and Hudson were built in 1958. The Rambler continued through the 60's with some notable success.

As these makes ended production in the mid-50's it put people out of work and effected support industries and businesses. That was probably a factor in the recession of 1958 into 59.

But what if that didn't happen? What if the major independents had survived as I outlined and the industry became the kind of Big Six U.S. automakers as outlined?

Possible realistic scenario: The economic recession of 1958 into 59 never happens, the American economy continues rolling along full steam and maybe even picks up some.

How does that change history and the historic timeline, and what effects do those changes have on history and the historic timeline? What would the past 48 or 49 years have been like and what would America and the world be like today if that had happened?

I don't just mean things about cars. I mean history overall. Had there been no recession in 58, would Kennedy still have won in 1960? In such a world would Kennedy still have been assassinated or gone on to serve two terms?

Or with no 58 recession, would Nixon have won in 1960 and realistically how would that have changed things? What would the years since the end of Nixon's second term in 1969 have been like? What would things be like today?

If I could really do what I have proposed, go or reach back to the 1950's and make that one change, then return to the present. What would the effect on history be and what would the America and the world be like in the year 2006 that I came back to?

Could someone please answer those questions for me please?

[Tom Veil]

Remember, there are very good economic reasons to have a small number of auto companies, because the basic equipment needed to mass-produce autos is so expensive.

There's been no invention since the 50s that would solve this problem if taken back in time to the 50s. Cars have gotten more complex since then, so that it takes an even larger investment to enter, even if your ideas and skills are far ahead of everyone else. Just ask Mr. DeLorean.

So if you really want the Big Six in the US, the only way sthat I can see to do it are:
1. No GATT. Keep the tariffs sky-high, and the auto market stays segmented. Of course, autos will be much more expensive and much less sophisticated, and the decreased international trade will result in less wealth in virtually every country on earth.
2. The Allies bomb Germany and Japan beyond recognition in 1945 -- Hiroshimas and Dresdens everywhere -- and then don't offer funds for rebuilding. No German and Japanese car companies (because the people who live there are too busy subsistence farming and huddling together for warmth). That should leave plenty of room for 6 US companies.

[The Mists Of Time]

Most of the posts here keep telling me how to form a Big Six U.S. automakers.

That's not what I'm asking.

I'm asking what the effect on the historic timeline would be? how would it change history if you could go back and do what I have outlined?

I know how to do what I would need to do to make that happen, that's not the question.

My question is, how would doing that change history? How would it change the historic timeline? What would the year 2006 you came back to be like?

[CalBear]

Most of the posts here keep telling me how to form a Big Six U.S. automakers.

That's not what I'm asking.

I'm asking what the effect on the historic timeline would be? how would it change history if you could go back and do what I have outlined?

I know how to do what I would need to do to make that happen, that's not the question.

My question is, how would doing that change history? How would it change the historic timeline? What would the year 2006 you came back to be like?

The failure of ALL american car companies, save, perhaps, GM & Ford's truck division. Six companies mean that they ALL have less market share & resultant smaller cash reserves to fall back on as the foreign makes advance into the American market post Oil Embargo.

1973 Oil shock hits: Packard dies first, followed by AMC, , Chrysler may be next, they almost went toes up IOTL as is (it depends if they have the deal with Mitsubishi & how generous the Feds are ITTL) then Kaiser; with it's Willys/Jeep division becoming part of one of the survivors, probably GM, or a specialist company similar to Land Rover (Kaiser survives longest of the Oil victims as they have a tradition of smaller cars & the small, but profitable, Jeep division). Ford may hang on, thanks to it's truck division (including Medium trucks), Autolight parts division, & Hertz rental division (a built in customer) & the Government market. GM survives the same way, but in better overall shape thanks to further diversification of the corporation.

By 1980 GM & Ford truck are they only American based car companies (except four wheel specialist Willy's/Jeep) Ford mostly survived on F-100's and foreign divisions. GM fight on, suffering ongoing losses in market share as in OTL, supported, indirectly, by sales to American government agencies on all levels.

By 2006, foreign makes have 80% of the consumer car market and are making inroads into the Light truck markets, putting Ford into crisis mode.

Much like OTL, but worse.

[NapoleonXIV]

Studebaker, Nash and Willys were never Ford, Chevy or Chrysler. They were 'alternatives' , cars for the 'thinking man' or specialized uses. As such, they fell when foreign cars came along that also offered innovation, along with superior price and quality.

They might have survived as separate lines if they had merged with foreign companies that had state support in their home countries but also needed the panache of an American name to break into the US market. Though it didn't help AMC to merge with Renault.

Otherwise, there doesn't seem any one thing that could have saved them. You would have to alter several factors. American attitudes to cars, Unions, the car manufacturers overall policies, government regulations of cars, price of gasoline, even the basic structure of the industry itself (and I don't see how you can do that without changing the nature of automobiles and American transport in very basic ways)

And if you ever find out how to really travel in time please come to my house and tell us not to have the Crosley towed away in 1960.

[DominusNovus]

And in Japan. Nobody works harder than the American worker. Even the Japanese eventually said, "fuck this shit," and threw in the towel. America quite possibly has the hardest working ethic in the world, and it eats me up to hear people like you blaming our economic woes upon the worker, rather than the brain-dead CEOs with their shortsighted vision and their offshore tax shelters and their gold-plated toilets.

I can't imagine what the German or Japanese automotive industry would be like with American labor. Come to think of it, considering that most German and Japanese cars sold in the US are actually made here in the US, I don't have to imagine. The most successful cars in America are made by American workers, not Japanese nor German. What would truly be interesting is how American manufacturing would prosper if it wasn't burdened by the congenital idiots that they currently have in charge...

TMOT: I'm sorry to take this off topic, but it had to be said. I really feel this way.
All very true, excellent point, Leo. I should point out that, nowadays, Japanese cars (and likely German cars, too) sold in America are usually made in America, with parts made in America, by Americans. If you compare a Japanese car and an American car (both built for american purchase), more of the Japanese car is made in America than the American car.

[DominusNovus]

Ok, there's been some discussion on the American automotive industry and how it handed over the business to the foreign companies. One of the most cited examples of this is just in time production, which the American companies refused to implement, even though it was developed by a guy that worked for GM (I believe, I know he was an Ameircan).

However, they did have one very valid reason for not implementing it was because GM made sure to have operations in every congressional district and to be a major employer there. That way, if anyone in congress did anything that hurt them, GM could close down a plant in their district, putting a large portion of the voters out of work (and its very easily defended, laying off workers when washington is passing laws against you). And not just the people directly employed by GM. This was a time when 25% of the US population was employed in some way by the auto industry. Maybe not directly by Ford, GM, or the others, but by their suppliers, the shipping companies, etc.

[DuQuense]

A lot would depend on what models, & styles the other three put out. And how this reacted to Gov't intrest groups,
[OTL the car companies stopped making convertibles in the 59~60 model year because they all thought that the feds were about to ban them.]

If the Six all go the Tail fin and Luxury Boat route as in OTL then the 70's oil shock [with OPEC it was a matter of when not if] will take them all under,
If you can get a couple of them to go the small Car/European Sport clone route [american VWs and MGs] then you could have a different mix today,
but I don't see more than 6~10 big Auto Manufactorers in todays OTL World, and your ATL would be the same [Different Names, not result]