The Bismark ISOT to August 1914

[Bosemacher]

The Bismark, Prince Eugen and support ships are ISOT from May 19, 1941 to Kiel Harbor August 30 1914 4:00 AM. Assuming the usual day or two of confusion, it is probably to late to avoid the invasion of Belgium. Can a few ships shift the balance of power in the North Sea?

[Fearless Leader]

Probably not dramatically. Mind you the Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen are decades ahead technologically. The real asset they'll bring the the Germans is their knowledge.

Initially, perhaps the Germans do a tad bit better on the western front. They hold of on transferring the 2 corps to the east and continue to push on. They got fairly close to Paris in OTL perhaps they take it here. But hey, that's a bit of a stretch. I don't think it's all that likely. Probably the west bogs down just like OTL.

Also keep in mind that German aircraft, torpedo, and tank development are going to kick into high gear. I'd expect some fairly decent tanks to start popping up around 1915/1916.

Navally, Perhaps the Kreigsmarine is able to isolate and destroy a portion of the british fleet. Dogger Bank (if it still happens) is the best place to do that IIRC.

Also I believe the Bismarck was based of the Bayern class dreadnaughts. Expect those to be pretty much Bismarck carbon copies.

I doubt Lenin is going to find his way to Russia. Perhaps the future Germans can convince the Russians to a truce inorder to fight the greater evil? Perhaps a renewal of the Russo/German Alliance? Russia gets a free hand in attacking the Ottomans while Germany gets to focus and further isolate France?

Moreover perhaps Italy can be swayed into joining the CP further distracting France....

Sub-machine guns, and the proper doctrines for them will be introduced earlier as well as perhaps primitive blitzkrieg.

I also think the battles will be more one sided than OTL. The Germans already know all their mistakes.

And finally all efforts will be made to keep the USA out of the war.

Interesting possibilities...

[jolo]

The people on board of those ships, and all the technology in them, would be too valuable to let them enter the war directly.

I'd let the best scientists and engineers analyze every little bit of the ships, together with the more tech-savvy people on board.

I'd take away redundant parts for further analysis in laboratories.

I'd start reproducing parts asap - new alloys, more powerful cannons, more powerful guns, new kinds of ammunition, electronics, optics, enigmas, and so on.

I'd also put some of the cannons on some of the 1914 ships, to increase their range and accuracy. Expect the Battle of Jutland to happen 2 years earlier, and as a decisive victory for Germany, lifting the British blockade and allowing to blockade Britain without angering the US.

A few of the cannons might be useful on the battle fields, too - expect small anti aircraft guns to be used mainly as heavy machine guns, small conventional and large anti aircraft guns as field artillery, medium guns as railway-guns, and a few large guns for coastal defense and long distance shooting. Especially the defensive tactics of the French might have problems with this.

In the following months and years, the knowledge of the sailors will lead to lots of new weapons: Tanks, maybe V1s, maybe radar, advanced fighters, bombers. There'll also be new tactics: Blitzkrieg, storm troops, paratroopers...

A few books on the ships will also lead to a lot of changes - Hitler can collect royalties for his book without ever bothering to write it; some history books might lead to the one or other political, tactical and diplomatic changes in wwi; Technical books will cause a lot of advances; and so on.

The extreme nationalism, antisemitism, and racism, the absence of many conventional morals, and other untimely attitudes of a few of the sailors might lead to a few raised eyebrows in 1914, but there will not be too many problems even for the most fanatic Nazis. Expect an early NSDAP to be founded, expect it to split over whether to let Hitler at the helm directly or wait for him to get older, and expect the Nazis to gain much less popular support, despite being a "party of the future" in more than one meaning (popular thinking and origins). Still, there will be enough influence to make Germany much more nationalist, militarist, intolerant, and racist after Germany won wwii.

Many of the people on the ships will probably become important businessmen, politicians, scientists, and so on, following the war. They will meet their younger egos or families, leading to lots of minor complications. They will help Germany to become the world's leading power - together with the people analysing their ships and equipment.

Germany might quickly overestimate her power and start wwii much earlier, equally devastating, and eventually loosing. Especially as the time travellers will give Germany an economic and political modell which is not very efficient.

[Adam]

The rift in time and space caused by the ISOT creates several anomalies on said worldline. The Chaos Effect simultaneously occurs, thus before you know it, all eras of History are mashed together.

Imperial Germany managed to force a peace upon the Allies by early 1917, reaching as far as Normandy using blitzkrieg tactics, revised weapon systems and the strange... massive mechas mouting gatling artillery cannons, massive dragons, conjured demons the size of five men, heavy tanks that should have existed only in the future...

The United States never gets drawn into the war, instead having to deal with the newly-arisen Tenochca Empire in Central America and a Southron resurgency armed with assault rifles and RPGs. Worse still, the forces of Tenochca are not of the living, but the dead.

Germany merged with both Austria-Hungary and Russia, which it made peace with thanks to Rasputin's help, forming the new Triple Empire. That was in 1918, and the Kaiser had turned his sights to the troubled nations across the Atlantic Ocean.

More?:p

[Chingo360]

well due to the major advance in technology, Germany wins WW1, this would basically erase WW2, since Hitler fought mainly because Germany received such harsh punishment

[Mike Stearns]

well due to the major advance in technology, Germany wins WW1, this would basically erase WW2, since Hitler fought mainly because Germany received such harsh punishment

I agree. I don't to think about the damage a ship like the Bismark could do in World War I.

[Chingo360]

Yeah that would destroy some of the best ships of the time, no one would be able to harm it.... same if the Yamato was ISOTed back to some other time

[MrP]

Yeah that would destroy some of the best ships of the time, no one would be able to harm it.... same if the Yamato was ISOTed back to some other time

Not really. Many of Britain's WWII capital ships are WWI leftovers: the Queen Elizabeth-class, Repulse and Renown . . . need I go on? Bismarck's improved fire control will be a welcome advantage, navally, and her shells will be superior. The RN is at a significant disadvantage because the Bismarck's command staff will be aware of innovations of WWI that they take for granted, such as the lessons learnt at Dogger Bank, or faulty British ammunition in early WWI.

I'm not certain that we need fear too much a very radicalised anti-semitic populace, if only because Admiral Lutjens himself wasn't a nut. Contrary to the portrait of him in Sink the Bismarck!, he disliked Hitler substantially, but supported Germany's increased militarisation. I recommend we get someone who's read something on at least the WWII German Navy's officer corps before we blithely assume total support for Hitler and his policies throughout the system. I can't recall offhand what Ludendorff's position on politics was.

Anyway, a fair number of militarily important Jews or people of Jewish descendants did serve in useful posts to the German military during WWII. The armed forces closed ranks around them. It's a great tragedy that the protection didn't extend to the rest of the community.

Bismarck will need to spend time working up with the fleet, I should remind you all. In WWII she was pretty much a lone wolf, but here she'll be doing what battleships were built for: participating in a fleet action.

[Chris]

Bismarck's radar and so on might be duplicatble by the germans, once the confusion (and the older officers have met their past seves) has passed. Once that was done, Bismarck and the HSF would be more than a match for the RN, leading to a quick defeat for the RN and a german-dominated world.

If the battle of the marne was still lost, germany would be wise to go on the defensive into 1915, slaugtering any french counter-attacks while concentrating on the navy. (Heh - the british might not have any idea what's happened). Once the HSF is ready, they can sail out and sink the british fleet, then knock britain out of the war. Without britain, France cannot fight on.

Chris

ps - neat idea, mind if I steal it?

[Chingo360]

well to answer MrP, imagine ISOTing the Arizona, Yamato, and Bismark to that time....:D

[JLCook]

well to answer MrP, imagine ISOTing the Arizona, Yamato, and Bismark to that time....:D


Give the USN the NORTH CAROLINA and the British PRINCE OF WALES instead. YAMATO would make the Japanese fleet very happy, except that Japan wasn't very active in WWI, and YAMATO would pose far less threat, on immediate terms.

The suggestion of ARIZONA isn't all that good in my opinion. No really "new" technology is introduced to compensate for the intervention of BISMARCK.

The most interesting results would be to see which country could best harvest the gain of 20-25 years in technology.

[MrP]

If we give everyone battleships from a way down the line, I can but feel sorry for the RN.

"Here, have HMS Vanguard."
"Wonderful, she's a splendid ship, fast, well-armoured. Has she the most modern guns?"
"Well, she has the best Britain's ever built . . ."
"Yes?"
"WWI-era 15" guns."
"Um."

Give WWI Japan a monster with 18" guns that can outrange everything in existence? :eek: Well, some reverse engineering later and Japan will have some very powerful vessels.

Interesting idea, this Bismarck thing. How easily replicable in 1914 would 1940 radio tech be?

[Chingo360]

not very easy, wow imagine Germany start building copies of the Bismark

[jolo]

If we give everyone battleships from a way down the line, I can but feel sorry for the RN.

"Here, have HMS Vanguard."
"Wonderful, she's a splendid ship, fast, well-armoured. Has she the most modern guns?"
"Well, she has the best Britain's ever built . . ."
"Yes?"
"WWI-era 15" guns."
"Um."

Give WWI Japan a monster with 18" guns that can outrange everything in existence? :eek: Well, some reverse engineering later and Japan will have some very powerful vessels.

Interesting idea, this Bismarck thing. How easily replicable in 1914 would 1940 radio tech be?

They should have a few engineers on board knowing at least the basics. Also, the radio operators are usually quite knowledgeable in such regards. With their help, there should be few problems.

[Chingo360]

yep, but only if the engineers would know how to handle the equipment

[Romulus Augustulus]

Hmm...of course, guess what happens when you ISOT a ship filled with explosives and organics back in time?

The explosives are detonated and the organics are fried. So, the Germans have a giant lump of twisted metal with charred corpses aboard on their hands. Hmm...

(Feeling whimsical. I've lost it.)

[Chingo360]

lets say that does not happen, so what now

[CalBear]

lets say that does not happen, so what now

Bismark is engaged, she is able to sink several of her attackers, is sunk along with the Prince, and Germany is starved (i.e. same as before).

If she is not engaged, and makes to the Kiel Canal? It will take at least 10 years to reverse engineer & recreate her more advanced systems (radar, 2nd generation sonar, etc.). Physics has to be reinvented for some of these changes to be used. Power systems for capital ships have to be redesigned to mount the new systems. Biggest advantage that can be used before the end of the war may be her seaplane design. Even then I don't think the technology exists to take advantage of it. Her knowlege of how the war proceeds is only of use if Germany disengages and makes peace immediately. After the 1st use of the knowledge, butterflies change everything from that point onward. The history books won't magically create any more miles of railroad track (which was what the Germans needed to make the inital deployment of troops suceed). Maybe a war in 1930 would be different, but 1914? Nope.

Be realistic. Bismark was fast. That, along with radar, is her huge advantage over BB's of the day. Most of that advantage is lost if she engages the Grand Fleet. Her guns were not magical, nor was the ammunition they fired. She can engage targets 5,000 yeards further out, she is, unfortunately, greatly outnumbered, and is pounded to pieces. The Prince gets killed by the BC's

Yamato - Second verse, same as the first. They fired a somewhat heavier shell, but the penetration power was about the same as final generation U.S. 16" guns. Even in 1914 she can only engage 3 targets at once, meanwhile the others close in and kill her.

Unlike 2006 tanks vs 1940 tanks, where armor, ammunition, gunlaying, speed, & survivability have changed to a point that some of the equipment used in 2006 would appear to be close to magic to Rommel or Patton, technology just hasn't advanced that much in ship design between the wars (thank/blame the 1922 Washington & 1930 London treaties for that).

Now send a Seawolf to December 5 1941 in the waters off Hawaii or a Trafalger to the North Sea on May 28, 1916...:eek:

[Chingo360]

whoa just thought of something, the Kiel Canal wasnt enlarged until 1936 (something good that Hitler actually did), so the Bismark wouldnt fit through it at this time

[Bosemacher]

ISOT of the Bismark was inspired by the mythical Philadelphia experiment. ATL it
might be considered an act of god.
A good site for data on the High Seas fleet and Kriegsmarine.
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/

The Bismark can not fit through the 1914 Kiel canal but the rest of the fleet can. Wirless sets were not exactly portable in 1914 and it will take some time before reports by British are accepted as credible.The Bismark needs to go around Jutland to join the High Seas fleet at Wilhelmshafen . Float planes can scout for an enemy presence. When encountering a superior force it is best to emulate brave Sir Robin and bravely run away. Once joined with the High sesa fleet the Bismark could be used implement the strategy attempted by Ingenohl.

One of the float planes and it's engine would probably end up being disected for engineering purposes.

Although the Bismark was not equpped with RADAR the radio officers may have been aware it the theory behind it.

Perfecting the m anufacture of triode and pentode tubes may take a while but I expect that by 1916 the Central Power would have radio deployed at the at least to the corps level in the European theatre and on capital ships.

Short term on land the Battle of the Marne could go either way. Generals are resistant on taking instructions from naval officers on the conduct of land warfare and the flaws in the Schleiffen plan have been discussed many times. It might be possible to avoid the Austrian debacle in Galacia .

Of course you can never predict the KWII effect.
Example: On learning of the existance of the Bismark KWII does which of the following.
a) superdreadnoght "BISMARK" have a stroke.
b) "BISMARK" melt it down for scrap
c) Oh my new toy don't let it out of the harbor someone might hurt it.
d) Let it be deployed as Tirpitz and Ingenohl see fit.

IMHO KWII and Czar Nicky are the products of British biological warfare. The British used Queen Victoria to spread the upper class twit gene throughout the royal families of Europe. The British wisely restrict their royal family to ceremonial functions and dressing up as Nxxxx
NO bad fingers! bad fingers!

Back to unreality.
It would be difficult for the Italian goverment to honor their treaty obligations to the Central Powers as Italian public opinion was hostile towards Austria. Id Germany can break the British blockade that might prevent Italy from joining the Entante. A neutral Italy might join with the Cental Powers later if a Central Powers victory seems certain. Italy would like to have Nice, Savoy, Corsica, Tunisia in adition to Tyrol,Dalmatia and Istria.

I am not sure how knowledge of the terms of the OTL treaties of Versailles and Brest-Litovsk would impact the Central Powers attitude during peace negotiations.

Those who achieve power through their own efforts are often fools but rarely idiots.

[jolo]

Bismark is engaged, she is able to sink several of her attackers, is sunk along with the Prince, and Germany is starved (i.e. same as before).

If she is not engaged, and makes to the Kiel Canal? It will take at least 10 years to reverse engineer & recreate her more advanced systems (radar, 2nd generation sonar, etc.). Physics has to be reinvented for some of these changes to be used. Power systems for capital ships have to be redesigned to mount the new systems. Biggest advantage that can be used before the end of the war may be her seaplane design. Even then I don't think the technology exists to take advantage of it. Her knowlege of how the war proceeds is only of use if Germany disengages and makes peace immediately. After the 1st use of the knowledge, butterflies change everything from that point onward. The history books won't magically create any more miles of railroad track (which was what the Germans needed to make the inital deployment of troops suceed). Maybe a war in 1930 would be different, but 1914? Nope.

Be realistic. Bismark was fast. That, along with radar, is her huge advantage over BB's of the day. Most of that advantage is lost if she engages the Grand Fleet. Her guns were not magical, nor was the ammunition they fired. She can engage targets 5,000 yeards further out, she is, unfortunately, greatly outnumbered, and is pounded to pieces. The Prince gets killed by the BC's

Yamato - Second verse, same as the first. They fired a somewhat heavier shell, but the penetration power was about the same as final generation U.S. 16" guns. Even in 1914 she can only engage 3 targets at once, meanwhile the others close in and kill her.

Unlike 2006 tanks vs 1940 tanks, where armor, ammunition, gunlaying, speed, & survivability have changed to a point that some of the equipment used in 2006 would appear to be close to magic to Rommel or Patton, technology just hasn't advanced that much in ship design between the wars (thank/blame the 1922 Washington & 1930 London treaties for that).

Now send a Seawolf to December 5 1941 in the waters off Hawaii or a Trafalger to the North Sea on May 28, 1916...:eek:

While the Bismarck wouldn't be magical, and the officers would still have to be careful, having a faster ship, with longer range guns, is enough of an advantage to easily sink any enemy without getting hit. They'd simply keep a distance to all the enemy ships, and fire whenever there's a good opprtunity. Without extreme negligence, the Bismarck shouldn't even get a single scratch if stranded in the middle of the Battle of Jutland. Especially if she did have radar.

I also believe a lot of the technology would find it's way much faster into wwi - the economy would not be able to support really large projects (including building several copies of the Bismarck) - but on an experimental/small amount level, lots should enter the war pretty quickly. The enigma, for instance.

And the knowledge about the war would help a lot - much fewer reinforcements to the east, knowing that France had only ammunition for 2 days when the Germans decided to dig in/retreat, avoiding the gas problems, some improved tactics (even if viewed with mistrust at the beginning), better tanks, and so on.

[MrP]

While the Bismarck wouldn't be magical, and the officers would still have to be careful, having a faster ship, with longer range guns, is enough of an advantage to easily sink any enemy without getting hit. They'd simply keep a distance to all the enemy ships, and fire whenever there's a good opprtunity. Without extreme negligence, the Bismarck shouldn't even get a single scratch if stranded in the middle of the Battle of Jutland. Especially if she did have radar.

Not in a fleet action. Just no. Until Bayern and Baden are launched, the Germans have no 15" gun vessels apart from Bismarck. If they fight a fleet action, they must close to effective range. Plus, there's the whole Crossing the T thing. Granted, until the QEs and Rs start coming into service, the British have only 13.5" guns to use on Bismarck, but these are still better than Germany's 12" weapons.

I also believe a lot of the technology would find it's way much faster into wwi - the economy would not be able to support really large projects (including building several copies of the Bismarck) - but on an experimental/small amount level, lots should enter the war pretty quickly. The enigma, for instance.

Agreed that copies of Bismarck are impractical. Most of Germany's warship construction stalled in WWI, leaving lots of empty shells at the end of the conflict. However, provided Germany can replicate the guns, she'll have some pretty good weapons. However, Bismarck's 6" and smaller weapons should be easily replicable, and they will do terrible damage once in service.
Her guns and ammo (http://www.kbismarck.com/armament.html)

And the knowledge about the war would help a lot - much fewer reinforcements to the east, knowing that France had only ammunition for 2 days when the Germans decided to dig in/retreat, avoiding the gas problems, some improved tactics (even if viewed with mistrust at the beginning), better tanks, and so on.

Possibly . . . I think the best option is tanks. Perversely, service loyalty and national loyalty may conflict. IIRC Bismarck consumed a year's worth of steel that could've gone to tanks. Germany's WWI tank production was hampered by raw material shortages. Conversely, even if she can't produce that many, she doesn't need to. If she can churn out large numbers of the 2 cm and 3.7 cm AA guns in time for the first Allied tank offensives, then those tanks will die in droves.

[jolo]

Not in a fleet action. Just no. Until Bayern and Baden are launched, the Germans have no 15" gun vessels apart from Bismarck. If they fight a fleet action, they must close to effective range. Plus, there's the whole Crossing the T thing. Granted, until the QEs and Rs start coming into service, the British have only 13.5" guns to use on Bismarck, but these are still better than Germany's 12" weapons.


While it would be better to get close (more accuracy, more different guns in range), I'd rather make sure my ship gets away unharmed if I were the captain - even if that means I'll not sink many other ships. And the Bismarck was even able to get away from British wwii ships equipped with the best available Radar, right in British controlled seas (at least for some time). The ship would be too valuable in such a situation. Later, when all important technology has been made available to Germany, the remaing ship could be used with the usual risks.

[MrP]

It really depends if you want to use Bismarck in the fleet. If you do, then she will either need a newly created, totally separate operational role that goes against the thinking of the entire WWI German Navy or she must be used as a battleship in the line of battle.

Bismarck could be used to best effect if she were to act as a lone wolf. However, given that RN capital ships will be operating in squadrons and that the North Sea has awful visibility, I'd assign her the entire light cruiser screen of the HSF whenever she goes hunting alone. :cool:

[NHBL]

It really depends if you want to use Bismarck in the fleet. If you do, then she will either need a newly created, totally separate operational role that goes against the thinking of the entire WWI German Navy or she must be used as a battleship in the line of battle.

Bismarck could be used to best effect if she were to act as a lone wolf. However, given that RN capital ships will be operating in squadrons and that the North Sea has awful visibility, I'd assign her the entire light cruiser screen of the HSF whenever she goes hunting alone. :cool:

IF you use Bismarck with the fleet (and I don't think she should sortie at all, but IF you do) then she does indeed have a vital role. Use her as a "Large Cruiser" (to use the British term, Battlecruiser) leading First Scouting Group, then the Royal Navy's battlecruisers are toast. The first battle of the scouting forces is, barring "Scheer" bad luck, is a rout of the Royal Navy's battlecruisers, with, IMHO, near total destruction of the Royal Navy battlecruisers involved.

[Fearless Leader]

I think the biggest thing that's going to come out of all this is the destruction of the Russian revolution. It won't be long before Lenin finds himself with a bullet in his head. The Future Germans can perhaps influence Russia to pull out of the war and focus on quelling their own internal problems. Thereby preventing the Russian Revolution from ever starting.

This leaves Germany and A-H to focus on France. Also keep in mind that SMG's will be making a major appearance around 1915/16. The technology is vital and easily within reach. Also IMO far more usefull in the short term than tanks. Envision an offensive around 1916 along the lines of the Final OTL german offensive of WWI. France isn't going to hang on for long, not after being bled dry in 1915 while the Germans dig in.

With France gone the blockade and the fleet becomes nearly a non-issue. Perhaps Germany gains the other half of Aslacce-Lorraine. I would'nt be surprised if Germany switches back into a more "Bismarkian" overall strategy. But that's unlikely. I also believe that Germany will be carefull not to repeat the mistakes of Versailles so the peace treaty will be rather lax.

A-H will be interesting. Who knows whether they'll try to hold it together or try to break it up in a more orderly fashion. If they go for the latter Hungary will be huge while Croatia dominates the Balkans.

[MrP]

IF you use Bismarck with the fleet (and I don't think she should sortie at all, but IF you do) then she does indeed have a vital role. Use her as a "Large Cruiser" (to use the British term, Battlecruiser) leading First Scouting Group, then the Royal Navy's battlecruisers are toast. The first battle of the scouting forces is, barring "Scheer" bad luck, is a rout of the Royal Navy's battlecruisers, with, IMHO, near total destruction of the Royal Navy battlecruisers involved.

Off the cuff - I need to run some numbers before being totally sure - I agree with you. Her speed makes her better suited to the fast wing than the main fleet. Beatty at Jutland made the inexcusable mistake of not opening fire until the Germans had already done so. Although the Bismarck's fire will probably not cause this to be repeated, I shouldn't think it'll do much good.

Back later with the numbers.