DBWI : Salem Witch Trial a scam

[Redem]

Ok I know it's weird for me to put this in the ASB forum. So you know I'm among the ones who believe that the Witchtes of salem weren't guilty of thoses "crimes". But WI they had been no Witches in New england at that time and that whole trials were in fact just common paranoia and that actually 19 Normal human had been burn to stake...

[Max Sinister]

But certainly every good Christian should be too afraid of killing innocent people, shouldn't s/he?

[Redem]

They didn't seem really afraid about it at Guernica

[Alois]

whole trials were in fact just common paranoia and that actually 19 Normal human had been burn to stake...It would mean there would be no way to tell the difference. Real Witches/Wizards are easily identifiable, of course. If the government and courts could be THAT mistaken then no-one would have been safe. Anyone who looked crosseyed at their neighbor could be accused - and then executed. Some would use the situation to settle personal scores. And since we know, from that hideous travesty at Salem, that innocent people can be found guilty, I think half, or even more, of the normal population would have been wiped out.

The American colonies would have failed, no question about it. The Natives would still rule the Western Hemisphere. And if accusations of normals had begun to happen in Europe it would have been more devastating than the Bubonic Plague. Entire kingdoms would have lain deserted. Perhaps the Muslims would have resurged and conquered the small remaining population.

[birdy]

Ok I know it's weird for me to put this in the ASB forum. So you know I'm among the ones who believe that the Witchtes of salem weren't guilty of thoses "crimes". But WI they had been no Witches in New england at that time and that whole trials were in fact just common paranoia and that actually 19 Normal human had been burn to stake...

''crimes''
''CRIMES''

SO YOU THINK PRACTISING WITCRAFT DOES'NT COUNT AS A CRIME!
you'd better count your lucky stars i dont know where you live, or the
canadian witchfinder general would be through the door in a second.

[Redem]

Ya, ya, like I care. We all know that witch are in the "gene" so if we think witchcraft a crime, we might as well say being alive is one. I mean how many nations actually use witches in there warfare! nearly all of them they only hunt those who try to live normally. There only one nation that allow witches to live and it's the Nippon Confederacy (We all know the story of the deal with there the thousand empress yada yada) and they don't have it harder or easier than any of us.

[danielb1]

Ya, ya, like I care. We all know that witch are in the "gene" so if we think witchcraft a crime, we might as well say being alive is one. I mean how many nations actually use witches in there warfare! nearly all of them they only hunt those who try to live normally. There only one nation that allow witches to live and it's the Nippon Confederacy (We all know the story of the deal with there the thousand empress yada yada) and they don't have it harder or easier than any of us.

You forgot the Kingdom of Bali. But then, it's a tiny island surrounded on 3 sides by the Islamic Kingdom of Java, where pretty near anyone with magical abilities are stoned. They're a haven for witches, wizards, changelings, and others such - mainly as a safety feature; if it weren't for the fact that any invading army would likely be turned into toads, Java would probably have wiped Bali off the map a long time ago. Okay, so you might argue that they're used for 'military' purposes, but the mandatory draft for magicals is the same as it is for normals (2 years).

Bali's a beautiful place, I visited it once. Just be polite to everyone you meet, especially old ladies.... :p

[Redem]

Sorry for the bit of argument here, let go back to the subject. So if the Witches of Salem had been remplaced by nonling human. Tjhe witches might have escaped somewhere out of fear that someone find them. let's say in Nueva espana...but this might make the 1712 war kick in early with some interesting result.

[birdy]

Sorry for the bit of argument here, let go back to the subject. So if the Witches of Salem had been remplaced by nonling human. Tjhe witches might have escaped somewhere out of fear that someone find them. let's say in Nueva espana...but this might make the 1712 war kick in early with some interesting result.

well in OTL, the british feared Neuva espana, i guess having a coven of witches there would get at them even more- or am i referring to the wrong war:o

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Imagine that such a society would give into its baser and more libertine ideas and beliefs rather than religious prudence and chastity! In such a society acts of wanton sexuality and laciviousness would certainly be rampant on the Internet, and men of honor such as Chairmen Joseph McCarthy (R-WI), Chairman George Wallace (D-AL), and Chairman Pat Robertson (R-VA) would be ignored and misconstrued, while "moral criminals" like Larry Flynt, Ron Jeremy, Roberto Guccione, and Hugh Hefner would have infiltrated our fine and moral society....

[danielb1]

Imagine that such a society would give into its baser and more libertine ideas and beliefs rather than religious prudence and chastity! In such a society acts of wanton sexuality and laciviousness would certainly be rampant on the Internet, and men of honor such as Chairmen Joseph McCarthy (R-WI), Chairman George Wallace (D-AL), and Chairman Pat Robertson (R-VA) would be ignored and misconstrued, while "moral criminals" like Larry Flynt, Ron Jeremy, Roberto Guccione, and Hugh Hefner would have infiltrated our fine and moral society....

McCarthy, Wallace, Robertson? Quite frankly, I'd rather deal with witches :p

It's sad that America has a two-party system, and both have their heads up their rears. Both are essentially in favor of a controlled economy and harsh moral controls. Okay, the Republicans are a bit better as they tend to be a little more respective of private property and think black people who don't practive voodoo can be upstanding citizens, unlike many Dems who still have the 'uppity witch-n***er' mentality. But still... there's a reason why I'm living in Bangkok and not Angel City. And no, it's not for prostitutes...

As to the WI... if innocents were the ones condemned for witchcraft, then it might set a backlash, perhaps resulting in more concerted efforts to stop condemnation of magical abilities in general. This could lead to a more libertine US, as pointed out, but I think that would be a good thing. No Larry Flynt running the show, I don't think, but imagine if Ron Paul were Chief Executive of the US instead of leading the Liberty Front :eek:. Or how about a woman as Chief Executive?

[Redem]

heh heh yeah like holy than deus people are really sinless. (oh yeah here it goes again Redem the all time cynical blah blah I don't care) BTW it's fairly logical that witches are always associated with more libertine way of life as it stand as a way of rebellion to most gouvement who actually hunt them down.(and libertine sure make good propaganda)

(weirdly enough no "empowered" people speaked up till now)

but for the suggest, the "range" of the powers was never cleary charted (Have you ever tried 17 century document hard as hell, mostly when written down by suppersticious people). Well if Remember correctly the 1712 war started with the invasion of the missippi valley by the Spanish force. I would say that if they had put the witches in charge I'm sure they could have hold the great lake region for more 80 years.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

McCarthy, Wallace, Robertson? Quite frankly, I'd rather deal with witches :p

It's sad that America has a two-party system, and both have their heads up their rears. Both are essentially in favor of a controlled economy and harsh moral controls. Okay, the Republicans are a bit better as they tend to be a little more respective of private property and think black people who don't practive voodoo can be upstanding citizens, unlike many Dems who still have the 'uppity witch-n***er' mentality. But still... there's a reason why I'm living in Bangkok and not Angel City. And no, it's not for prostitutes...

As to the WI... if innocents were the ones condemned for witchcraft, then it might set a backlash, perhaps resulting in more concerted efforts to stop condemnation of magical abilities in general. This could lead to a more libertine US, as pointed out, but I think that would be a good thing. No Larry Flynt running the show, I don't think, but imagine if Ron Paul were Chief Executive of the US instead of leading the Liberty Front :eek:. Or how about a woman as Chief Executive?

Hold your tongue you Un-Christian Devil! If I was a wagering man, which I am not, I would fashion that you are one of those un-Christian libertines who allowed the visage of Jesus Christ, Our Savior, as a solicitor of harlots and prostitutes by that hated cartoonist Matt Groening, sparking the riots in Paris, Madrid, Amsterdam, London, and Prague. (2/2006)

As for the issue of a woman as Chief Executive, it is a sign of a poor gentleman's handling when a woman thinks that she can perform more than her Christian duties of creating children. Would you have men serve as the whipping boy to their wives? What's next, having women serve in the industrial sector? Madness!!

[danielb1]

Hold your tongue you Un-Christian Devil! If I was a wagering man, which I am not, I would fashion that you are one of those un-Christian libertines who allowed the visage of Jesus Christ, Our Savior, as a solicitor of harlots and prostitutes by that hated cartoonist Matt Groening, sparking the riots in Paris, Madrid, Amsterdam, London, and Prague. (2/2006)

As for the issue of a woman as Chief Executive, it is a sign of a poor gentleman's handling when a woman thinks that she can perform more than her Christian duties of creating children. Would you have men serve as the whipping boy to their wives? What's next, having women serve in the industrial sector? Madness!!
You're making me laugh. So an idiot draws a caricature of Jesus. Big freaking deal. I might find it offensive if someone drew, say, Yahweh soliciting harlots. But would I go off and riot, hang a few pagans, burn houses and horsts? No way. So there are idiots in the world. If you believe the guy will go to hell, just wait a few decades until he croaks. Then, if your faith is true, he'll get all the riot he'll need. If not, then... you're wrong. Next thing, you'll complain about us uppity Jews, the ones who don't wear beards and black coats and grovel before you. And yes, I'm a Free Jew. I don't eat pork or drink milk with my roast beef on Saturdays, sometimes attend a synagogue near my university, and tell missionaries they can go to hell and try to convert the people there :rolleyes:

As for women, can't you empty-headed folks in North America and Europe get that the difference between a man and a woman is that a woman has breasts and a womb and a guy has thicker muscles and a few extra parts on the outside? Seriously. Women might not be suited for industrial labor, but how much industrial work does your typical New Yorker or Edoan or Singaporean do anyway? A woman can't do office work? Pah. My mother sells cosmetics; my father owns a horst dealership in Manila (thank God that the Phillipine Church is heretical! :D). Both make quite a bit of money; mom just quit her first job at a bank (where they charged interest! :p) when she was pregnant with my elder brother, and stayed at home until I was old enough to go to school.

Dude, East Asia's where it's at, nowadays. With the Mohammedians and most Christians being a bunch of control freaks, you can't find a good new economy west of Bombay or east of Honululu. And that's even counting the nutzo Javans. Siam, Laos, Viet Nam, China, Koryo, Nippon, Manzhuguo, the Phillipines, Hawai'i, Singapore, Bengal, Bali, and even Australia are all booming - and are either Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, mixed-religion, or members of a "heretical" Christian sect (the Philippine and the Anglicans - you know, those folks you threw out of England back in the 1640s when Oliver Cromwell started separating heads from bodies). Of course, even I think the Anglicans are a little nuts - the Archbishop of Darwin decided to allow homosexuals to marry within the church (I believe in your land they're called sodomites; they're usually not bad people but I don't see why they need to be married). Nippon's probably the single most powerful nation on Earth; maybe Britain could stand up to them in a one-on-one.

ObWI: sometime in the 1600s or so, various churches loosen the definition of usury to mean 'excessive interest' and not 'interest' as a whole. Banking doesn't remain a small-scale operation performed mainly by Jews and a few Italian families. but spreads even among Protestants. Europe could be a world leader instead of an economic backwater, the economies would surge instead of sputter if free capital allowed for faster industrialization. Free economies and free minds go hand in hand; you wouldn't see all this crazyness amongst Christian groups. Maybe some of them would suffer a witch to live, after all.

BTW, Ron Paul's a really cool guy. The Liberty Front's got quite a nice little following in parts of the West. There's hope yet in North America, methinks...

[Mr_ Bondoc]

You're making me laugh. So an idiot draws a caricature of Jesus. Big freaking deal. I might find it offensive if someone drew, say, Yahweh soliciting harlots. But would I go off and riot, hang a few pagans, burn houses and horsts? No way. So there are idiots in the world. If you believe the guy will go to hell, just wait a few decades until he croaks. Then, if your faith is true, he'll get all the riot he'll need. If not, then... you're wrong. Next thing, you'll complain about us uppity Jews, the ones who don't wear beards and black coats and grovel before you. And yes, I'm a Free Jew. I don't eat pork or drink milk with my roast beef on Saturdays, sometimes attend a synagogue near my university, and tell missionaries they can go to hell and try to convert the people there :rolleyes:

As for women, can't you empty-headed folks in North America and Europe get that the difference between a man and a woman is that a woman has breasts and a womb and a guy has thicker muscles and a few extra parts on the outside? Seriously. Women might not be suited for industrial labor, but how much industrial work does your typical New Yorker or Edoan or Singaporean do anyway? A woman can't do office work? Pah. My mother sells cosmetics; my father owns a horst dealership in Manila (thank God that the Phillipine Church is heretical! :D). Both make quite a bit of money; mom just quit her first job at a bank (where they charged interest! :p) when she was pregnant with my elder brother, and stayed at home until I was old enough to go to school.

Dude, East Asia's where it's at, nowadays. With the Mohammedians and most Christians being a bunch of control freaks, you can't find a good new economy west of Bombay or east of Honululu. And that's even counting the nutzo Javans. Siam, Laos, Viet Nam, China, Koryo, Nippon, Manzhuguo, the Phillipines, Hawai'i, Singapore, Bengal, Bali, and even Australia are all booming - and are either Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, mixed-religion, or members of a "heretical" Christian sect (the Philippine and the Anglicans - you know, those folks you threw out of England back in the 1640s when Oliver Cromwell started separating heads from bodies). Of course, even I think the Anglicans are a little nuts - the Archbishop of Darwin decided to allow homosexuals to marry within the church (I believe in your land they're called sodomites; they're usually not bad people but I don't see why they need to be married). Nippon's probably the single most powerful nation on Earth; maybe Britain could stand up to them in a one-on-one.

ObWI: sometime in the 1600s or so, various churches loosen the definition of usury to mean 'excessive interest' and not 'interest' as a whole. Banking doesn't remain a small-scale operation performed mainly by Jews and a few Italian families. but spreads even among Protestants. Europe could be a world leader instead of an economic backwater, the economies would surge instead of sputter if free capital allowed for faster industrialization. Free economies and free minds go hand in hand; you wouldn't see all this crazyness amongst Christian groups. Maybe some of them would suffer a witch to live, after all.

BTW, Ron Paul's a really cool guy. The Liberty Front's got quite a nice little following in parts of the West. There's hope yet in North America, methinks...

Consider that the good Book of Leviticus and the Book of Exodus, demands that a woman remain the property and obedient of her husband. By placing a woman in the employ of another, even in what you claim is benign in the form of a department store, consider that you divide her loyalties, from that of her God-willed husband and her corporate sponsor. When you have this happen, you allow the introduction of vile libertine behavior like harlots of Saigon and Bangkok....

What our world needs now more than ever is the firm hand of a Good Shepherd like Chairman Ralph Reed and Russian Prelate Vladimir II (a.k.a. Vladimir Zhirinovsky) to lead the world in this "War of Civilizations"...

[Redem]

(Levictus also say you to burn an animal once in a while, worst barbecue ever)

Might I remind you this is alternate history! Feel free to discuss about such matter in the chat threat, not hjere.

Hum...I just thought about it, as we all know Witches insurgent coven were among the most powerful force during the slave war. I know this is stupid (as the slave war was relitevly, although I didn't see, before I was born) to say this but I remember seeing somewhere that runaway witches (which who would our witches who have done if they happen to be intelligent, which they probably are, when they found that trial was in fact burning down human) had a tendancy to free slave they were meeting on there road. Maybe in there run to a safe heaven they would have liberate quite a lot of the slaves of the New world.

[danielb1]

(Levictus also say you to burn an animal once in a while, worst barbecue ever)

Might I remind you this is alternate history! Feel free to discuss about such matter in the chat threat, not hjere.

Hum...I just thought about it, as we all know Witches insurgent coven were among the most powerful force during the slave war. I know this is stupid (as the slave war was relitevly, although I didn't see, before I was born) to say this but I remember seeing somewhere that runaway witches (which who would our witches who have done if they happen to be intelligent, which they probably are, when they found that trial was in fact burning down human) had a tendancy to free slave they were meeting on there road. Maybe in there run to a safe heaven they would have liberate quite a lot of the slaves of the New world.

Lord, this would have butterflies in Virginia colony.... assuming the witches move by land on a relatively southwestward basis to either Florida or Tejas, they're going to be bringing along quite a following of slaves out of Maryland, Virginia, and the Carolina. Some of them might be, in secret, witches or voodoo-practitioners themselves. If they travel together, by the time they reach the Carolinas they'll have a good-size army. Instead of running to Nueva Espana, they could establish their own colony - or turn a few prominent Carolinians into newts and take over there. I would love to see the reaction of a bunch of Puritans to a colony of escaped slaves and magicians living in, say, the Tennessee valley. Attracting more escaped slaves, witches, and some indians to the colony, and you might have a viable ministate come the 18th century...this would utterly change the Britain/Nueva Espana war around. Maybe I'll make a story on this alt-hist, "The Haven" .

Redem, nobody 'empowered' has spoken up, largely because they like to keep a low online profile. I mean, in half the world, they'd be hanged on sight - they tend to keep to local boards. I'm probably the closest thing there is to an 'empowered' here; i have an inactive recessive gene; apparently one of my great-great-grandmothers was a witch. I'll ask my g/f if she wants to make an appearance (she's one reason I'm sure to visit Bali again!), but I don't think she'd be too fond of Mr Bondoc here....:rolleyes:

gtg, gf is PMming me... I don't want to be sent flying across the Pacific ocean...

[Redem]

A haven colony is an interesting concept (actually some all witch had been around the Manathan island during the reconstruction, but off course Puritans burned them to the ground) thought there survival would always be endanger...well they might make atlantis or mu rise out of the water 200 years early if they want somekind of haven.

Speaking of Voodoo, I'm not sure it would have been such a big thing it with the espaniart if the sole survivor of salem hadn't gone to Hispaniola. She went to Hispaniola in on a small ship, she couldn't have brought the other 18 witches with her if she had tried, so therefore she would have need a land escape route or a bigger ship. Ipso facto if she don't go to Hispaniola she won't discover Voodoo and won't convert and start preaching and etc etc etc

[danielb1]

A haven colony is an interesting concept (actually some all witch had been around the Manathan island during the reconstruction, but off course Puritans burned them to the ground) thought there survival would always be endanger...well they might make atlantis or mu rise out of the water 200 years early if they want somekind of haven.

Speaking of Voodoo, I'm not sure it would have been such a big thing it with the espaniart if the sole survivor of salem hadn't gone to Hispaniola. She went to Hispaniola in on a small ship, she couldn't have brought the other 18 witches with her if she had tried, so therefore she would have need a land escape route or a bigger ship. Ipso facto if she don't go to Hispaniola she won't discover Voodoo and won't convert and start preaching and etc etc etc

True, but there are other, similar traditions amongst other African groups, including those who were shipped over to North America. It might not be called 'voodoo', but the magic-practition potential's there.

[Redem]

yeah but what's interesting with voodoo is that it develop among non-african origin people. I mean everybody know Baron Bolivar and his more than mythic campaign.

Speaking of African culture (and continuing on the possible escape place of our alt-witches) how about Africa most of it was underdevolleped at the time and we all know how much shamaan can gratefully kick an *ss (too bad not more of them were there to stop slavery)

[danielb1]

yeah but what's interesting with voodoo is that it develop among non-african origin people. I mean everybody know Baron Bolivar and his more than mythic campaign.

Speaking of African culture (and continuing on the possible escape place of our alt-witches) how about Africa most of it was underdevolleped at the time and we all know how much shamaan can gratefully kick an *ss (too bad not more of them were there to stop slavery)

Plausible, but Africa's got a lot of diseases - some that even the shaman's can't fend off. And Africa was a mess - lots of interclan rivalry, some of the shamans and tribal chiefs would capture members of rival groups and sell them to the Europeans or the Arabs. Never mind that the coastlines of Africa were lined with slave ports that have since blossomed into colonies of the various European and Middle Eastern empires. Things could get real ugly, could the Africans, with say 50 magicals and a few thousand escaped slaves drive the Europeans out of at least southern Africa?

By the way, anyone know about any nice, 4-lotus rated restaurants and hotels in Taipei? I was planning on taking my girlfriend there, maybe with a stop to visit my parents in Manila (they might not be too pleased that she's telekinetic and prays to a goddess, but they're an open bunch and'll get over it)...

ObWI: Nipponese sailors in the 1600s establish settlements in northwestern North America. They were already fishing and engaging in piracy in the Aleutians, but they hadn't gotten any land until the Russians got drowned in the Russo-Nipponese War.

another ObWI: Anglican Restoration in England: after Cromwell rose to power, could he or his successors be kicked out of England and the Anglicans take over? I know it sounds improbable, but could it have worked? Without being forcibly removed to Australia, could the Anglicans have remained a sort of Catholic-lite faith, instead of mutating from spending over two centuries stranded in the Pacific?

*(OTL's Namibia)

[Redem]

try the purple blue lotus, for a chinese restaurant/hotel they really know how to make sushi (well guess you finally how to make it right after 200 years of "cohabitation", but I leave the function of the many nationalites of the Nippon confederation to other thread) it's the only one I can remember....

(but on more back to our thread)

hum...there's another possibility for our witches, they hide in the population among the puritan population (it's easier than it sound believe my experience) and there's also the Canada, because despiste being under british domain, society is a lot more liberal toward witchcraft and maybe today Canada wouldn't be know as that magicless society (although immigrant community, mostly in the Hindu and Espaniart community often use magic) or maybe that U.S would have gone really mad from having his two neighboor having witches and invade the weaker one...oh wait it really happen....4 time...oh well maybe that time he would have succed.

[danielb1]

try the purple blue lotus, for a chinese restaurant/hotel they really know how to make sushi (well guess you finally how to make it right after 200 years of "cohabitation", but I leave the function of the many nationalites of the Nippon confederation to other thread) it's the only one I can remember....

(but on more back to our thread)

hum...there's another possibility for our witches, they hide in the population among the puritan population (it's easier than it sound believe my experience) and there's also the Canada, because despiste being under british domain, society is a lot more liberal toward witchcraft and maybe today Canada wouldn't be know as that magicless society (although immigrant community, mostly in the Hindu and Espaniart community often use magic) or maybe that U.S would have gone really mad from having his two neighboor having witches and invade the weaker one...oh wait it really happen....4 time...oh well maybe that time he would have succed.

Heaven help us... the Kingdom of Canada's always been in a compromising position. One cannot help but sympathize with them, with it being the last non-Puritan refuge in North America :mad:. Heaven knows the butterflies that would happen if the British, or later the US, decided to crush them. If this happens pre-1789, where do the Bourbons flee to? What happens to Louisiana? And who would own it, French, Spanish, or British?

I wonder if Louisiana would have been good. Everyone knows the brew that mixed there from African slaves, natives, Frenchmen and Spaniards of all sorts.... sounds like it was a fun place in the 18th century. Would a stronger position in Louisiana keep it out of the vile British/American hands?

[Redem]

Well canada was part of the british empire for quite a while, One of the few naiton who was able to free itself without the use of a coven. The bourbons (or bubbly like some, namely me, like to call them) we're merely puppet to the parliment and other elite, and the first monarch we're pretty much puppet to Nueva Espanga. Oh well at least they gave us nice crowd of the Jewel.

Hum Lousinia as the witch country...wo that's sure would make interesting mardi gras. (Right up here we're preparing in saguenay, my region in Canada, can't wait to see tons of puritans women throwing there inibition away, but they sure deserve it ;) )

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Well, any well versed look at history, such as The People's History of the United States of America by Prof. Newt Gingrich, University of Georgia, will note that the scientific and concrete evidence of the existence of witches led to many political changes. First, consider that the 1666 London Fire quickly led to the arrest and burning of Lucasian Chair Sir Issac Newton sparking international controversy, and sicrediting much of the alchemist's work. Second, consider that Pope Innocent XII issued the Papl Bull of 1693 which called for the intensification of the Inquisition until 1865, leading to the the crushing of Second French Huguenaut Uprising in 1871.

[Redem]

If Newton was so Guilty how come he was pardon in 1983?


heh yeah the inquisition, we had it pretty hard, but have you ever wondered why the heck inquisitor so goddamn good at kicking *ss (I have the scar that prove it) while there average age is 67 ?

beside britain way past the Elizabethian period and puritanism

[danielb1]

Well, any well versed look at history, such as The People's History of the United States of America by Prof. Newt Gingrich, University of Georgia, will note that the scientific and concrete evidence of the existence of witches led to many political changes. First, consider that the 1666 London Fire quickly led to the arrest and burning of Lucasian Chair Sir Issac Newton sparking international controversy, and sicrediting much of the alchemist's work. Second, consider that Pope Innocent XII issued the Papl Bull of 1693 which called for the intensification of the Inquisition until 1865, leading to the the crushing of Second French Huguenaut Uprising in 1871.

Arresting and burning Newton? Biggest mistake England ever made. Some of his papers were unearthed recently; he was apparently developing a form of Calculus, and looking at basic concepts of physics (like Force = mass x acceleration) that OTL were discovered by Chinese Emperor Shang-kun.

ObWI: Isaac Newton not burned. He publishes his work; mathematics and physics in the West are revolutionized.

[Redem]

Ya but maybe, just maybe if the Shang-kun (Greatest Nipponese empeor if you ask me) didn't have discover basic concepts of physics. We wouldn't have the Shikoku Reasearch institute and maybe space reasearch wouldn't be as advance as it is now.

[danielb1]

Ya but maybe, just maybe if the Shang-kun (Greatest Nipponese empeor if you ask me) didn't have discover basic concepts of physics. We wouldn't have the Shikoku Reasearch institute and maybe space reasearch wouldn't be as advance as it is now.

He was Chinese, you know, when his reign started - he's only considered 'Nipponese' because of his dynastic union with the Tokugawas and then the deposal by the Xia in China. Actually, come to think of it, he was a Manzhoguoan ruling China, and is now known as the renaissance ruler of Nippon. Weird!

Without Shang-kun, we wouldn't have such a revolution. BUT, if simultaneously we assume Newton survives, then it might have occured - in England! (Believe it or not).

[Redem]

Well logicly if Newton was burn all those who would have been his follower would have been also burn to the ground.

For Shang-kun, I just refer him as a Nippon ruler cause as you can see the Asian dynasty have quite complex famility three and since Nippon confederacy is the biggest Nation on the continent and rule most of a territory that used to belong to China.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

If the Salem Witch Trials had been proven to be false, the Concordat of 1805 by Pope Pius VII which opened the Modern Crusades after the Barbary Pirate raids would have never taken place. Also consider the rise of the Bonapartist Monarchy of 1806. Would the monarchy of Napoleon I have occured under conditions wherein a secular regime of rule was present?

[Redem]

Well by "scam" I meant WI the witches hadn't been burn at salem (and remplace by innocent since those trial we're common paranoia toward enpowered that we see in most puritans)

and please tell me in what the heck Pope Pius VII did "Modern crusade" there was nothing holy in what he did

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Well by "scam" I meant WI the witches hadn't been burn at salem (and remplace by innocent since those trial we're common paranoia toward enpowered that we see in most puritans)

and please tell me in what the heck Pope Pius VII did "Modern crusade" there was nothing holy in what he did

Consider that without the Modern Crusades of the 1800s, you have the very distinct possibility of the Muslim "Wogs" still in control of Constantinople and Jerusalem, two of the holiest sites in Christendom. As suchb, can one imagine the barbarity that would have ensued in those areas? As such Pope Pius VII should be as one of the great leaders of modern history....

Also consider that it has been shown by faith and by science that the "empowered" as they like to call themselves are sufferers of a genetic mutation, which marks the from the rest of the human race. Just consider the work of Monsignor Gregor Mendel who in 1867 announced his findings to the Holy See...

[Redem]

And oddly enough the "holiest" pope (right after Peter I) still had time to use protestant mercenary in his crusade (and aslo he also didn't went only on the Islamist but also on a lot of voodo praticant wich is ironic considering Voodoo come out of the mix of catholism and African tradition) . :rolleyes:

[Mr_ Bondoc]

And oddly enough the "holiest" pope (right after Peter I) still had time to use protestant mercenary in his crusade (and aslo he also didn't went only on the Islamist but also on a lot of voodo praticant wich is ironic considering Voodoo come out of the mix of catholism and African tradition) . :rolleyes:

How rude can you be!! Comparing Voodun to the blessed light of Roman Catholicism, I am completely taken aback. Obviously you are an anti-Christian bigot with no sense of education. Just consider that comparing Voodun to Catholicism is like comparing Islam to Protestantism of Judaism, simply because they contain the books of the Old Testament.

Obviously you forget thatthe intent of the blessed work of Pope Pius VII was meant to united Christianity into the "one body of Christ" in 1806. This was stated during the Papal Bull of 1807. Apparently you are one of those heathen who believes that the economic wealth and technological prowess of the heathen "Celestial Empire" (China) and the Empire of Nippon (Japan) allows the Asians to use up 80% of the world's resources. Such is a travesty and an outrage....

[Redem]

I was mostly stating fact.

Voodoo does come out of a mix of Christiniaty and African religion (which explain is popularity among the spanishard population as it was relatively easy to switch) I mean Voodo started with the African slaves of hispagnola, but the high level of catholic spanishard convertee made a mix over time. (One of it's biggest exemple being the Baron Bolivar since he was nearly the embodimment of the mix as in nearly step of his campgain we could see the change in his faith)

Yup you're right at some level Islam is at some level protestantism of Judaism.(thought instead Islam is based of a radical change of worship while I think Protestantism is basicly different interpretation of the same book)

and tell me why the "unification" must goes along with the massacre of 30 millions people.

and btw I believe success is earn, this is basic notion capitalism, if the Nipponese and (to a lesser extand) chinese are so sucessful is because they work harder than us. Beside Asian compagnies may hold 80% of the world but they have share holders all over the world, and the share system was invented by nipponese who deliberatly letted other countries invest in his compagny , in fact the Richest man in the world is an African and he doesn't even own one of those compagny. We're living in the era of supra-nationality althought I think it will take a bit of time for the idea to kick in on the North American Continent since we have nearly only two nations taking all the space and who are nearly based on being opposite.

(BTW go check my pic of Mardi Gras in Saguenay, Believe me every single one of it worthing it sure fun at you're next masonic meeting, I know all my masson brother and I did)

[Mr_ Bondoc]

I was mostly stating fact.

Voodoo does come out of a mix of Christiniaty and African religion (which explain is popularity among the spanishard population as it was relatively easy to switch) I mean Voodo started with the African slaves of hispagnola, but the high level of catholic spanishard convertee made a mix over time. (One of it's biggest exemple being the Baron Bolivar since he was nearly the embodimment of the mix as in nearly step of his campgain we could see the change in his faith)

Yup you're right at some level Islam is at some level protestantism of Judaism.(thought instead Islam is based of a radical change of worship while I think Protestantism is basicly different interpretation of the same book)

and tell me why the "unification" must goes along with the massacre of 30 millions people.

and btw I believe success is earn, this is basic notion capitalism, if the Nipponese and (to a lesser extand) chinese are so sucessful is because they work harder than us. Beside Asian compagnies may hold 80% of the world but they have share holders all over the world, and the share system was invented by nipponese who deliberatly letted other countries invest in his compagny , in fact the Richest man in the world is an African and he doesn't even own one of those compagny. We're living in the era of supra-nationality althought I think it will take a bit of time for the idea to kick in on the North American Continent since we have nearly only two nations taking all the space and who are nearly based on being opposite.

(BTW go check my pic of Mardi Gras in Saguenay, Believe me every single one of it worthing it sure fun at you're next masonic meeting, I know all my masson brother and I did)

Something you are probably one of those apostate followers of the so-called "Reformists" like Gary Willis or the Jewish agitator Alfred Franklin. The fact that they have been allowed to spread their seditious lies since 1994 is a most distressful item. The fact that they do nothing to condemn the violent and harsh actions of "empowered" psychopaths like David Koresh and Randy Weaver seem to be one of the reasons that your movement is doomed to fail!!

Where is the moral outage from "Reformers" like your Adam Carolla insult the virtue of women and Penn Gillete refers to the Holy Father as another ,"pile of @#$%^..." Consider that the Inquisition will not tolerate such actions.

I'll bet in your ATL, these so-called men might even be honored as statesmen....

[Redem]

My only hero are those who fell out of grace but who ideal remain noble no matter what. That's why I admire the Baron Bolivar and Benjamin Franklin come second, I don't share Franklin hardcore biggotery toward both religious and empowered. but he and his "clique" made the only attemp in U.S history to separate church and state and fought bravely in one of the most ferocious battle of all time. The Washington Standoff was totally revolutionnary as it used an all-volunteer force and Franklin (being a good diplomat) was able to put down is biggotery, by allowing everyone even people from other nations, Empowered and slave, in an attemp to stop a near-dictatorial nation.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

My only hero are those who fell out of grace but who ideal remain noble no matter what. That's why I admire the Baron Bolivar and Benjamin Franklin come second, I don't share Franklin hardcore biggotery toward both religious and empowered. but he and his "clique" made the only attemp in U.S history to separate church and state and fought bravely in one of the most ferocious battle of all time. The Washington Standoff was totally revolutionnary as it used an all-volunteer force and Franklin (being a good diplomat) was able to put down is biggotery, by allowing everyone even people from other nations, Empowered and slave, in an attemp to stop a near-dictatorial nation.

Well consider that the Washington Standoff was started by Alexander Hamilton in 1801 in an effort to overthrow the duly elected officials of the government, who desired after the Compact of Plymout in 1789 the implementation of the holy and devout state that we have today! Remember that Hamilton wanted to install an absolute monarchy, similar to the model of the Bonaparte model....

[Redem]

Maybe but Franklin was the mastermind behind it, Alexander Hamilton was the figure head because Franklin was too old to take the lead. He was the one who was able to make the First Gattling gun 75 years before the Nipponese introduce it to the dutch. Recent Historian think it was because Franklin latent witch Gene we're woke up by his Regeneration attemp by a witch and therefore could saw future and invent the Gattling gun, too bad, the weapon had overheated and Franklin was smart enough to destroy is blueprint.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Maybe but Franklin was the mastermind behind it, Alexander Hamilton was the figure head because Franklin was too old to take the lead. He was the one who was able to make the First Gattling gun 75 years before the Nipponese introduce it to the dutch. Recent Historian think it was because Franklin latent witch Gene we're woke up by his Regeneration attemp by a witch and therefore could saw future and invent the Gattling gun, too bad, the weapon had overheated and Franklin was smart enough to destroy is blueprint.

Consider that the powers of the "empowered" to view the future are problematic. Just consider that their visions failed to prevent the 1963 arrest of Jeanne Dixon after assassination attempt on Chairman Joseph McCarthy. Consider their second failed attempt at assassination on Chairman Pat Robertson in 1989. It is part of the reason for the swift passage of the 1990 Seninel Program under Doctor Bolivar Trask....

[Redem]

Well trans-temporal perception was never clearly define as being either

1. The ability to see the future and alter it

2. The ability to see the future and that those vision actually bring people ti accomplish the vision no matter what (inalaterability of time)

3.The given vision theory, the vision is actually made to make destinity swimg in a particular way. (Very popular theory among religious) either to furfill the vision or to change the future.

I mean the universe consider to be billions of year old and still have billions of year to live. If we think fourth dimmensionally (Yeah I'm big fan of Running to the present!) all the event have there consequence (and my unpowered lifespan can't tell you what) even bad one can have good consequence on a billion of year scale. Just like the Witch trial of Salem. There burning actually helped bring support to empowered in the normal population.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Well trans-temporal perception was never clearly define as being either

1. The ability to see the future and alter it

2. The ability to see the future and that those vision actually bring people ti accomplish the vision no matter what (inalaterability of time)

3.The given vision theory, the vision is actually made to make destinity swimg in a particular way. (Very popular theory among religious) either to furfill the vision or to change the future.

I mean the universe consider to be billions of year old and still have billions of year to live. If we think fourth dimmensionally (Yeah I'm big fan of Running to the present!) all the event have there consequence (and my unpowered lifespan can't tell you what) even bad one can have good consequence on a billion of year scale. Just like the Witch trial of Salem. There burning actually helped bring support to empowered in the normal population.

That sounds just as scientifically possible and logical as the idea of past-life regression and crystal meditation. Is it any wonder people like Doug Hennig, David Copperfield, and Shirley Maclaine were imprisoned in 1987 for such blasphemous ideas. Are you going to say next that the 1984 assassination of Senator Robert Kelly (R-NY) was allowed to be assassinated by the "empowered"?

[Redem]

who know it's just a theory, I mean just see what were the consequence of his assasination

and you know what technilly Christian believe in that form of timeflux, I mean inalterability of destiny. I mean there the one who believe an extremely precise apocalypse who is already "written" shall happen and cannot be "chose" out

[luakel]

Are you going to say next that the 1984 assassination of Senator Robert Kelly (R-NY) was allowed to be assassinated by the "empowered"?
Possibly. After all, he was one of the most vocal supporters of the "Paranormal Registration Act"...

[Redem]

Well who know maybe genocide of all the witch is the future, or maybe acutally in the future all humanity shall be witch. (Demographic study show that there's been an augmentaiton of Empowered all over the world, Even the Niponese who always had the lowest Normal/empowered ratio in the world.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Well who know maybe genocide of all the witch is the future, or maybe acutally in the future all humanity shall be witch. (Demographic study show that there's been an augmentaiton of Empowered all over the world, Even the Niponese who always had the lowest Normal/empowered ratio in the world.

Considering that iron negates all "empowered abilities", I will take a Colt Peacemaker and a Desert Fox .357 over your abilities any day. I have yet to see an "empowered" person who won't run in fear the minute an armored personnel carrier comes into an area with armed Inquisitors....

[Redem]

Funny enough Niponese are behind the whole "technology over magic" ideology (which was logicial considering thaqt there population, like I've said, have the lowest density of empowered in the world, while spanishard have the biggest)

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Well, remember the attempt in the 1930s by the "empowered" to attempt to gain "acceptance" by mainstream society? I seem to remeber the brutal riots that took place after "Wonder Woman" appeared in April 1941. Before that there were the riots that erupted when in February of 1934, when "Mandrake the Magician" battled police in Manhattan, New Amsterdam...

This should serve as proof that Senator Robert Kelly was correct in his beliefs about the "empowered"....

[Redem]

what they did was vigilantism it's totally different beside the meltdown had destroyed the economy and crime rate became uncrontlable.

[danielb1]

Whew... just got back from Taipei... that was a nice trip :).

'Magic' genes come in a variety.... I apparently carry a recessive one on my 20th Chromosome from my father's side, legacy of a great-great-great-grandmother, a telepathy gene. So my kids are 50% likely to be telepathic, and 100% likely to be telekinetic (as that gene, my now-fiancee tells me, is dominant). So Bondoc, a tip: don't mess with my kids.

Oh, and iron might ward off witchcraft, but not normal telekinesis. So watch it!

[Redem]

Heh just tought about it if the witches don't get burn it might have created a powerful sorcerer dynasty withim the U.S I mean all country got at least one except the U.S

BTW there's at least 20 millions empowered in the world that are actually active. So just imagin how much it do with the latent and the one hidden.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Well, consider that many Nipponese are still bitter at teh "empowered" after the 1986 "Akira Disaster" which killed over 753,000 people in Tokyo. Consider that the martial law that was imposed in that country was only released in 1998, after protests were made former Chairman Pat Robertson....

[Redem]

But still the empowered were always very tolerated in the confederacy(but the Nipponese were always on the line of dictatorship) . Beside the Akira incident stained the then Viceroy of the confederacy as it was proved that the it was Nipponese gouvernment was behind the experiment.

And also Nipponese were not the only one to have martial law for an awful lot of time the U.s had been under martial law from 1929 to 1953 for rather perticulous reason.